Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins say Pope should not be given 'honour' of state visit

[Loki]

Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins say Pope should not be given 'honour' of state visit (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/09/15/stephen-fry-and-richard-dawkins-say-pope-should-not-be-given-honour-of-state-visit/)

By Jessica Geen • September 15, 2010 - 14:03

A letter signed by more than 50 public figures says that the Pope should not be given the "honour" of a state visit to the UK.

The letter, published today in the Guardian newspaper, argues that while the Pope is free to visit his British followers, his teachings on sexual issues mean he should not be accorded a state visit.

It charges that the Pope has opposed the use of condoms, denied abortion to vulnerable women, opposed gay and lesbian rights and failed to address cases of alleged child abuse.

The letter adds: "The state of which the Pope is head has also resisted signing many major human rights treaties and has formed its own treaties ('concordats') with many states which negatively affect the human rights of citizens of those states.

"In any case, we reject the masquerading of the Holy See as a state and the pope as a head of state as merely a convenient fiction to amplify the international influence of the Vatican.

Signatories included gay broadcaster Stephen Fry, atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins, novelist Terry Pratchett and writer Johann Hari.

The Pope will arrive in the UK tomorrow for a four-day visit. He is expected to meet the Queen in Scotland and hold an open-air mass in Birmingham.

Today, prime minister David Cameron appeared in a video message welcoming him to the UK.

Mr Cameron, who will have a private meeting with the Pope on Saturday, said that the UK would give him a "very warm welcome".

However, there has been concern that tickets for the open-air mass, which will include a beatification of Cardinal Newman, are not selling as well as expected.

The mass was originally going to be held at a larger venue and 10,000 of the 60,000 £25 tickets have not been sold.

The Catholic Church is expected to pay £10 million towards the visit. The state is to pay another £10 million, although this does not include the cost of security.

Earlier this month, a poll of 2,005 adults by Theology thinktank Theos found that 77 per cent said the taxpayer should not fork out for part of the trip's cost.

Hundreds of people are to join a march in London on Saturday against the Pope's teachings and the state-funded visit.

[poiuytrewq0987]

"In any case, we reject the masquerading of the Holy See as a state and the pope as a head of state as merely a convenient fiction to amplify the international influence of the Vatican.I wonder what he would've said instead had the Italian unification not happened then the Papal States would be still here today.

P.S. Head of State? More like Head of City. :P

[Beorn]

Signatories included gay broadcaster Stephen Fry, atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins, novelist Terry Pratchett and writer Johann Hari.

So basically a suicidal homosexual, a wannabe messiah with religious issues, a man who forgets who he is and some fat Scottish prick of a journalist ... and many more besides, I'm sure.

Tell me, why is it Europe is in decline?

[Óttar]

The Church is a mafia. Politics pretty much works like that too. The Italian military supplies the Pope's helicopter which is funny because Italy is a separate sovereign state entity. The Vatican is the number 8 place for money laundering in the world.

[Groenewolf]

Maybe a copy of the letter should be provided so that our Catholic members can respond to the contents of the letter.

I myself just wonder if they, and more so Dawkins, would do the same thing if one of the heads of state of the few remaining countries that practice state-atheism and have bad human right records made a state visit to the UK.:coffee:

[Treffie]

Couldn't agree more with them - Stephen Fry is a god! :thumbs up

[Debaser11]

Some funny remarks from people in this thread who are supposedly pro-European culture. Yeah, the U.K. only wishes that a possible visit from the Pope ranked among one of its problems.

I'm not even crazy about this current Pope myself. In fact, he might be a criminal; I don't know. But these people would object to any Pope. Their reasons for objecting to the Pope are so lame, too. So the Catholic Church is supposed to be pro-abortion and pro-gay rights after centuries because Stephen Fry and the political winds of the day think it would be a better for them to be? Why are these atheists all so condescending again? They certainly don't seem to be all that smart despite their tone.

[ikki]

funny, who made those guys into sex cops?
Sex cops, as in cops that determine what sex talk is allowed and what isnt, and then handig out persona non grata for those they disagree with? Heil Stalin!

[antonio]

I bet that, although they manifest in anger against the punctual visit of a World leader, some of that scum people have zero concerns about permanent British invasion from all the Globe (if not they're in openly support it, like Cinema people angry for social stuff for their films)...well, to be fair, I must Pope himself and English Catholic church have equally no concerns about it.

[Wulfhere]

500 years after we booted out this paedophile slime, they are still leeching off the British taxpayer to fund their visit to us.

[Debaser11]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Catholic Church, but how's that secular relativist nonsense working for you English? I'm asking while there are still some English on this Earth who can answer.

[Wulfhere]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Catholic Church, but how's secular relativist nonsense working for you English? I'm asking while there are still some English on this Earth who can answer.

More and more English people are finding their Pagan roots.

[Debaser11]

Must be an "under the radar" movement. I see no reason for optimism.

[Wulfhere]

Must be an "under the radar" movement. I see no reason for optimism.

It's quite open, these days at least.

[Murphy]

I am so very glad that states are not defined by how much land they control. Which was the argument of an atheist protester today. Because the Vatican is only a city it shouldn't be considered a state.. The simple fact is that the the Vatican City is a state. It is not the Church's fault that Her land is so small today. Because She had Her lands stolen from Her She ceases to have any claim to statehood?

For some reason, I don't see Mr Dawkins et all applying this same logic to poor tragic Amerindians or Africans.

Let us be honest here my atheist friends. Let us not hide the truth of the matter. The Pope is being rejected because he is the Pope! Being Catholic is the only reason.


It's quite open, these days at least.

Wulfhere, go away. I tell you what, when pagans start pulling in crowds that mach the Orange Order never mind a Papal visit then we'll talk.

[Wyn]

It's quite open, these days at least.

I've never met a pagan in real life. And I don't mean that figuratively. I mean I haven't met one.

[Wulfhere]

I've never met a pagan in real life. And I don't mean that figuratively. I mean I haven't met one.

Depends on where you go.

[Voitto]

Both these individuals are staunch multi-culturalists who would much rather see Islam in a position of power than Christianity. I am very glad to see the Pope in the UK on a state visit as at least it keeps the Muslims down and in their place.

[Voitto]

More and more English people are finding their Pagan roots.

In my experience Pagans tend to be a bunch of left-wing, stop the war, multi-culturaist, queer-loving soap-dodgers.

[The Lawspeaker]

In my experience Pagans tend to be a bunch of left-wing, stop the war, multi-culturaist, queer-loving soap-dodgers.
You wouldn't find any of those here. Those Pagans that I have met here usually fit the description
bunch of left-wing, stop the war, multi-culturalist rather well though. But soap-dodgers ? Nah.

It's a British issue but I personally don't think that Ratzinger should come at all unless he solves this mess with paedophile priests and tries it utmost to compensate those that were harmed. And they should hand over all records to the judicial services (and cast out those priests of any rank that were involved in these criminal acts and hand them over to the police).

If the Church has any self-respect left: they'd start today. Or they should not be welcomed anywhere and outlawed as a criminal organisation and treated accordingly.

[Osweo]

A hundred million? I'm wondering if it's worth it, just for the way it makes my Mam curse so whenever they talk about it on the radio... :p

[Farcebook]

Both these individuals are staunch multi-culturalists who would much rather see Islam in a position of power than Christianity. I am very glad to see the Pope in the UK on a state visit as at least it keeps the Muslims down and in their place.

Dawkins does not prefer Islam to Christianity, lol.

pQzuFrMRA3M

[Cato]

The blowhards still blowing hot air it seems, as if His Imperious Papal Majesty would really deign to comment on a couple of generic atheist tossers. Frydawkins might as well wish Airwolf would fly in and blow up Saint Peter's with chain guns and heatseekers.

[Wulfhere]

In my experience Pagans tend to be a bunch of left-wing, stop the war, multi-culturaist, queer-loving soap-dodgers.

Political beliefs among Pagans tend to come in all shades from one extreme to the other and everything in between. This is as it should be - it's not a political movement.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

In my experience Pagans tend to be a bunch of left-wing, stop the war, multi-culturaist, queer-loving soap-dodgers.

It depends... I consider paganism as a reasonable alternative to Islam, Judaism and Christianity.
Paganism is usually a reaction against the mess brought on us by the believers of these evil Middle eastern religions.

As a real European, I believe my cultural and ethnical character is in our pre-Christian roots.

[Debaser11]

It depends... I consider paganism as a reasonable alternative to Islam, Judaism and Christianity.
Paganism is usually a reaction against the mess brought on us by the believers of these evil Middle eastern religions.

As a real European, I believe my cultural and ethnical character is in our pre-Christian roots.

So to be a "real" European, you need to disregard two thousand years of Europe's history? Just close the book on the chunk of history which has seen more development and innovation than any other in history? You, sir, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

So to be a "real" European, you need to disregard two thousand years of Europe's history? Just close the book on the chunk of history which has seen more development and innovation than any other in history? You, sir, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

No, debaser, that is not what I said...

I acknowledge the impact of christianity and the development/enlightment it brought, but that could as well have been another phenomena; it just happened to be christianity.

The values which make us European are many and complicated, but my belief is that many values we have are not christian but stem from a pre-christian system of belief.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

For instance, the respect for the natural cycle and nature in form of celebration of midwinter and summersoltices go back to pre christian times. The right of females to own and inherit is also prechristian. These are two examples of what christianity have tried to wipe out, but have not succeded since it's so deeply rooted in our belief/value system.

[Wulfhere]

So to be a "real" European, you need to disregard two thousand years of Europe's history? Just close the book on the chunk of history which has seen more development and innovation than any other in history? You, sir, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Much of that development was carried out despite the Church, not because of it. And Europe never forgot its Pagan roots, the Greek classics, for example, always remained part of the Western canon.

[Debaser11]

No, debaser, that is not what I said...

I acknowledge the impact of christianity and the development/enlightment it brought, but that could as well have been another phenomena; it just happened to be christianity.

The values which make us European are many and complicated, but my belief is that many values we have are not christian but stem from a pre-christian system of belief.

What is your evidence that it "could have just as well been another phenomena"?

I've searched history. I don't see any evidence. Was that phenomena Islam? Confucianism? Daoism? Hinduism? Your belief in the text that I bolded demonstrates how you're willing to just take some things on faith like many Christians are ridiculed for doing.

[Debaser11]

Much of that development was carried out despite the Church, not because of it.

Right.


And Europe never forgot its Pagan roots, the Greek classics, for example, always remained part of the Western canon.

I understand. But nothing you have written offers any sort of evidence that Europe would have reached the heights it did without a Christian society. Anyone claiming that Europe would still have become as great is indulging in one big hypothetical that scholars debate about in the same way that scientists debate about intelligent life outside our solar system. But it's such a hypothetical that I do think it's fair to say it takes a whole heap of faith to assume the West would have prospered in the same way outside of a Christian context. Even the humanists and Enlightenment people prospered within a Christian context. Do you just dismiss that? Where are all the humanists from Muslim society? Or even from Eastern societies?

[RoyBatty]

Stephen Fry is one overrated fag. He's neither witty nor funny nor interesting whatsoever but the gay media mafia saturate us with Fry time. Dawkins..... another windbag and wannabee demigod from the church of atheism and science.

As for the pope, why us taxpayers have to foot part of the bill for his "visit" I don't know either. Vatican "State" is a joke. The Catholic Church has loads of $$$. Why're we paying to promote them????

As for the rest whether he visits or not I care not. Why people get so excited about his visit, be it in a positive or negative sense, I don't really understand. I'd be more upset if Michael Bolton or Whitney Houston were to tour the UK.

[Wulfhere]

Right.



I understand. But nothing you have written offers any sort of evidence that Europe would have reached the heights it did without a Christian society. Anyone claiming that Europe would still have become as great is indulging in one big hypothetical that scholars debate about in the same way that scientists debate about intelligent life outside our solar system. But it's such a hypothetical that I do think it's fair to say it takes a whole heap of faith to assume the West would have prospered in the same way outside of a Christian context. Even the humanists and Enlightenment people prospered within a Christian context. Do you just dismiss that? Where are all the humanists from Muslim society? Or even from Eastern societies?

These are hypotheticals for sure, but it's undeniable that European civilisation suffered a severe decline after Christianity took control of the organs of state. Just compare the Roman Empire of the 5th century with that of the 1st, for example. And then the empire fell, and Europe fell into the dark ages and was almost conquered by Islam. We didn't really recover for a thousand years. Imagine how much more advanced we would be without that thousand-year interlude.

[Debaser11]

These are hypotheticals for sure, but it's undeniable that European civilisation suffered a severe decline after Christianity took control of the organs of state. Just compare the Roman Empire of the 5th century with that of the 1st, for example. And then the empire fell, and Europe fell into the dark ages and was almost conquered by Islam. We didn't really recover for a thousand years. Imagine how much more advanced we would be without that thousand-year interlude.

The Roman Empire was not declining due to Christianity. Christian ideals and virtues might have saved Europe from the Muslims. There's certainly more evidence for that claim than any you have made in your above post. Christianity was the tool the peoples of Europe used to reorganize their societies after the big fall. It was the banner which stirred the peoples of Europe to push back the brown masses and even try to retake lands that had (most unfortunately) been taken over by Muhammad's barbarians. I also object to the term "Dark Ages."

[The Lawspeaker]

The Roman Empire was not declining due to Christianity. Christian ideals and virtues might have saved Europe from the Muslims. There's certainly more evidence for that claim than any you have made in your above post. Christianity was the tool the peoples of Europe used to reorganize their societies after the big fall. It was the banner which stirred the peoples of Europe to push back the brown masses and even try to retake lands that had (most unfortunately) been taken over by Muhammad's barbarians. I also object to the term "Dark Ages."
Christianity came along some 300 years before Muhammed got his first delirium.
I do believe that Christianity in the end saved us from a take-over but let's face it: we were saved from an invader by an invader.

The Roman Empire indeed got actively undermined by Christianity and Nero tried to put a stop to it.

[Debaser11]

I understand. I do sort of object to the term "invader," though. I also think Rome was on its way out the door before Christianity gained any type of real strength. At best, Christianity was one of many problems Rome was facing. Rome was a decadent rotting corpse and had been for some time.

[Osweo]

Just close the book on the chunk of history which has seen more development and innovation than any other in history? You, sir, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Hmm, look at it this way, though; nappies were a pretty useful thing to me when I was a toddler, but they just don't fit me now.

It's undeniable, that Christianity has lost its hold on us. How on Earth could you imagine it grabbing us again?

We're more worldly now. 'Israel' is not some far away land of the imagination, that we don't mind as having as the setting for our official mythic history. It's an all TOO familiar place, known for general nastiness and bother, examples of which are shown daily on our TV screens. Unlike our great great grandparents, we can't happily settle for taking the Hebrew patriarchs as our own. ANd there are plenty of similar considerations that prevent the wholesale readoption of Christianity in Europe, ever again.

What is your evidence that it "could have just as well been another phenomena"?

I've searched history. I don't see any evidence. Was that phenomena Islam? Confucianism? Daoism? Hinduism?
There were alternatives;
fh9GKY4eH1s;)
(THAT fellow had a temple up on the furthest northern part of the Imperivm on my island, the Mithraeum at Carrawburgh (once Brocolitivm) on the Wall!)
And not just Mithras either. There were plenty of other cults knocking around (a bit like in our own time, indeed). Read this;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Full-Gods-Pagans-Christians/dp/0297819828

A World Full of Gods: Pagans, Jews and Christians in the Roman Empire by Keith Hopkins is a rollicking work of revisionist history about Christianity's ascent as the dominant religion of the West. In its tour of Roman paganism, Judaism, Christianity and Gnosticism A World Full of Gods employs a range of techniques of description, analysis and historical reportage. The first chapter is a report from two time travellers visiting Pompeii just before the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius; soon after comes a description of the ascetic Jewish sect at Qumran that produced the Dead Sea Scrolls--in the form of a TV drama. Hopkins, a professor of ancient history at King's College, Cambridge, justifies his experimental style by asserting that "to re-experience the thoughts, feelings, practices, and images of religious life in the Roman empire, in which orthodox Christianity emerged in all its vibrant variety, we have to combine ancient perceptions, however partial, with modern understandings, however misleading." Rather than presenting a focused argument, A World Full of Gods offers immersion in a sensibility--a history of Christianity that has little interest in the Historical Jesus, and instead traces the influence of imagination on the growth of Christianity. Jesus, Hopkins argues, "is not just, nor even primarily, a historical person. Rather, like the sacred heroes of other great religions, he is a mirage, an image in believers' minds, shaped but not confined by the images projected in the canonical gospels." --Michael Joseph Gross

Hmmm...... There was summat else I was gunna say.... :chin: Ah yes. The present Bishop of Rome wrote something a while back saying that Christianity had 'taken the best of Greek thought', if you will remember. (The Muslims got all riled up at some comment in it made in passing :p) This is all part of how Christianity didn't 'triumph' over everything else, but absorbed it all. Some of classical Christianity's most important aspects would have been quite alien to Jesus himself. It could just as easily have been Manichaeanism or Mithraism or whatever that had absorbed a bit of Christianity. You can't therefore hold the religion up as entirely foreign, OR as something that introduced radically new concepts into the Roman world and its appendages...

[Debaser11]

Hmm, look at it this way, though; nappies were a pretty useful thing to me when I was a toddler, but they just don't fit me now.

It's undeniable, that Christianity has lost its hold on us. How on Earth could you imagine it grabbing us again?

Oh, there's no way it can regrab us. I just feel the need to defend it from a historical perspective. I also don't like how fashionable it is to demean people who are Christian today. And when people trash it, I feel like they are trashing everything great that Christendom spawned because those things are not as separable from the Christian conscious as so-called humanists will have us believe. It's an illusion to try to separate the religion from the cultural achievements at the level people like Dawkins and Hitchens try to do. And even if Christianity has not been wholly "disproven" as the new atheists insist it has been, the current "zeitgeist" only needs to deem it illegitimate for it to be a failed system which we cannot return to.

So I'm a bit of a nihilist on the matter, personally. I sort of despair at how Christianity is being dumped and trampled on but at the same time cannot bring myself to believe in it, either. I'm a "semi-regretful atheist." But only "semi" because I would never feel beliefs can be justified simply as a means to an end. So I don't fault others for not holding to Christianity's ontological claims. Nonetheless, my annoyance with people who condescend toward Christianity because they now realize their Sunday school teacher from fifteen years ago is wrong is easily apparent.


We're more worldly now. 'Israel' is not some far away land of the imagination, that we don't mind as having as the setting for our official mythic history. It's an all TOO familiar place, known for general nastiness and bother, examples of which are shown daily on our TV screens. Unlike our great great grandparents, we can't happily settle for taking the Hebrew patriarchs as our own. ANd there are plenty of similar considerations that prevent the wholesale readoption of Christianity in Europe, ever again.

I completely agree with everything you wrote here.


There were alternatives;
fh9GKY4eH1s;)
(THAT fellow had a temple up on the furthest northern part of the Imperivm on my island, the Mithraeum at Carrawburgh (once Brocolitivm) on the Wall!)
And not just Mithras either. There were plenty of other cults knocking around (a bit like in our own time, indeed). Read this;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Full-Gods-Pagans-Christians/dp/0297819828

Thank you for that. Of course there were other alternatives. But it's pie in the sky to speculate what they would have done for Europe. We know Europe is great. We know Christianity was there in full force as it powered ahead of the Near East and East Asia.



Hmmm...... There was summat else I was gunna say.... :chin: Ah yes. The present Bishop of Rome wrote something a while back saying that Christianity had 'taken the best of Greek thought', if you will remember. (The Muslims got all riled up at some comment in it made in passing :p) This is all part of how Christianity didn't 'triumph' over everything else, but absorbed it all. You can't therefore hold the religion up as entirely foreign, OR as something that introduced radically new concepts into the Roman world and its appendages...

Most definitely. Catholic medieval monks rigourously applied Greek methodologies to Christian dogma. They've gone down to the abyss so to speak. This is why I get oh so annoyed at the "all religions are the same so we should just co-exist" crowd. They are stupid people who revel in their ignonance. Muslim circular logic (and I do realize I'm simplifying their tradition a bit here) should not be confused with Christian thought, which has produced some of the greatest minds in history. This is also why I respect Catholicism more than many branches of Protestantism (even though Martin Luther himself was a sharp man).

[Nodens]

That which is most valuable in any particular variation of Christianity is also that which is least Christian in it.

[Psychonaut]

Regarding previous points in this thread about the widespreadedness of paganism in the West, the pagan revival had picked up an incredible amount of steam in the German speaking world around the turn of the century and could very well be a larger religious movement in the West than minority faiths like Buddhism or Judaism had "certain political movements" not co-opted Heathen imagery a few decades ago. We'll still get there, it'll just take a bit longer.

[Great Dane]

Is honoring the Pope with a state visit any worst then honoring the King of Saudi Arabia or some African despot? What bothers some of you is that the Pope is a religious leader. I don't care for the Pope myself and I have issues with the RC Church over its support for Hispanic immigration to the US, but I would be willing to let my Catholic neighbors celebrate the occassion of the Pope's visit if he ever came to the Midwest.

[Debaser11]

That which is most valuable in any particular variation of Christianity is also that which is least Christian in it.

I don't understand. I'm all ears if you elaborate. I will say, it sounds condescending in manner that is not to my liking, though.

[Nodens]

I don't understand. I'm all ears if you elaborate. I will say, it sounds condescending in manner that is not to my liking, though.

A topic that I've ranted (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=189054&postcount=2) on elsewhere.

When faced with the objections typically to Christianity raised by Nietzsche or the Nouvelle Droite, most nationalist, folkist, racialist, right-wing, etc.-leaning Christians object by citing Medieval Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy or the more radical/folkist forms of Protestantism in the Anglo-sphere, arguing their preferred branch to be the 'true' form and effectively divorcing themselves from Christianity's actual origin. Christianity, in its purest form, is the product of a first-century Middle Eastern ressentiment among the "children of powerless rebellion", what Nietzsche describes as the slave revolt in morality. It was this essentially nihilistic creation that was instrumental to the decline (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25717/25717-h/files/733/733-h/gib3-38.htm#2HCH0006) of the (http://www.freespeechproject.com/julian.html) Roman (http://www.freespeechproject.com/medit.html) Empire (http://www.freespeechproject.com/faschrist.html). No legitimate form of Christianity may fully divorce itself form it's origin in the New Testament canon and the First-Century Church without undercutting it's own theological and historical foundations.

The forms of Christianity professed by those on the Right are highly syncretic, often to the point of being as much (if not more) Pagan (or in some cases Jewish) than Christian (http://rosenoire.org/articles/marx.php). This is visible in the original forms of Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Christianity) and Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Christianity) Christianities that were ousted by Roman Catholicism (itself borrowing almost all of it's structure and much of it's theology and customs from Hellenic and Roman religion). In the case of much of Calvinist influenced Protestantism, the influence of Mosaic Judaism (in a very corrupted form) is frequently the strongest visible aspect.

Net effect: The liberalization and emasculation of contemporary Christianity is not simply a slide into degeneracy, but is in fact a return to it's historical and theological origins as the ressentiment of the raceless and the casteless.


In order to follow the development of forces that shaped the Western world, it is necessary to briefly consider Catholicism. Catholicism developed through (a) the rectification of various extreme features of primitive Christianity; (b) the organization of a ritual, dogmatic, and symbolic corpus beyond the mere mystical, soteriological element; and (c) the absorption and adaptation of doctrinal and organizational elements that were borrowed from the Roman world and from classical civilization in general. This is how Catholicism at times displayed "traditional" features, which nevertheless should not deceive us: that which is in Catholicism has a truly traditional character is not typically Christian and the which is in Catholicism is specifically Christian can hardly be considered traditional. Historically, despite all efforts that were made to reconcile heterogeneous and contradictory elements, and despite the work of absorption and adaptation on a large scale, Catholicism always betrays the spirit of lunar, priestly civilizations and thus it continues, in yet another form, the antagonistic action of the Southern influences, to which it offered a real organization through the Church and her hierarchy.

-Julius Evola, Revolt Against the Modern World