Balkan PCA and Clusters

[poiuytrewq0987]

From here: http://www.pubpdf.com/pub/25148043/Standing-at-the-gateway-to-Europe-the-genetic-structure-of-Western-balkan-populations-based-on-autos

I took the liberty of identifying the clusters.

https://s16.postimg.org/rd37f2t6d/balkanclusters.png

[Sikeliot]

Greeks and Albanians are like an "eastern" version of Tuscans.

[safinator]

If we're to follow the map it's not correct to put Kosovar Albanians and Greeks on the same cluster considering the former are all on the most northern edge of the cluster and i'm talking about the mainland only.

In fact if we're going to follow the map they're equidistant from IN (Italian North) and most greeks.

[Sikeliot]

If we're to follow the map it's not correct to put Kosovar Albanians and Greeks on the same cluster considering the former are all on the most northern edge of the cluster and i'm talking about the mainland only.

In fact if we're going to follow the map they're equidistant from IN (Italian North) and most greeks.

Greeks are closer to Tuscans.

[Antimage]

From here: http://www.pubpdf.com/pub/25148043/Standing-at-the-gateway-to-Europe-the-genetic-structure-of-Western-balkan-populations-based-on-autos

I took the liberty of identifying the clusters.

https://s16.postimg.org/rd37f2t6d/balkanclusters.png

I wonder where slovenes cluster

[Hoxhaism]

we cluster most with central italians.
Most albanians can only pass as south west european.

[Dick]

we cluster most with central italians.
Most albanians can only pass as south west european.
+1

[Ylla]

I didn't know Croats were so north shift

Cool thanks for sharing ;)

[Wrong]

I didn't know Croats were so north shift

Cool thanks for sharing ;)
Albanians seem to go in northwest cline aimed towards French, breaking the typical rule of northeast cline in the Balkans.

[Ylla]

Albanians seem to go in northwest cline aimed towards French, breaking the typical rule of northeast cline in the Balkans.

I said that once but everyone thought i was crazy

[Wrong]

I said that once but everyone thought i was crazy
You were right, the others are crazy Turks.

[Dick]

I said that once but everyone thought i was crazy
+1

[Ibericus]

Looks very similar as PCA of Eurogenes :

http://oi67.tinypic.com/974pkn.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Bulgarians and Thessalian Greeks overlap, not surprised. But not completely overlapping. Albanians shift WEST, not east, which shows they have less Slavic influence than Greece.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Bulgarians and Thessalian Greeks overlap, not surprised. But not completely overlapping. Albanians shift WEST, not east, which shows they have less Slavic influence than Greece.

The Albanians do shift west while Greeks shift east.

[wvwvw]

Bulgarians and Thessalian Greeks overlap, not surprised. But not completely overlapping. Albanians shift WEST, not east, which shows they have less Slavic influence than Greece.

Do we see the same map? I see Kosovars overlap more with Bulgarians.

Albanians used to be Catholic under the influence of Pope.

Southern Italians should have been included in that plot.

[GoneWithTheWind]

The Albanians do shift west while Greeks shift east.

Could be Ilyrian ancestry why they shift west. Regarding shifting north west towards France: it could be that some Albanians came from much northern Ilyrian regions.

[Wrong]

Do we see the same map? I see Kosovars overlap more with Bulgarians.

Albanians used to be Catholic under the influence of Pope.

Southern Italians should have been included in that plot.
Albanians shift northwest towards French. Illyrian + Thracian + Yamnaya input.

[wvwvw]

Could be Ilyrian ancestry why they shift west. Regarding shifting north west towards France: it could be that some Albanians came from much northern Ilyrian regions.

It was also invaded by the Normans which pushed a great number of the original Epirotes into Greece.

[Wrong]

It was also invaded by Normans which pushed a great number of the original Epirotes into Greece.
This input is negligible. Genetics have already been established by majority back then from Yamnaya, Natufian and WHG.

[wvwvw]

Albanians shift northwest towards French. Illyrian + Thracian + Yamnaya input.

Not significantly though

[Wrong]

Not significantly though
It does. Mostly aimed towards France. Same can be explained by my DNA.land results

http://i.imgur.com/hKHAmxj.png

What is established is that most Albanians are 0% Slavic.

[Wrong]

Normans were a mixed bunch before they even entered Balkans. Prolly mostly South Italian genetically.

This is many years after Normans established themselves in France.

[wvwvw]

It does. Mostly aimed towards France. Same can be explained by my DNA.land results

http://i.imgur.com/hKHAmxj.png

What is established is that most Albanians are 0% Slavic.

Just like the Greeks some Albanians are more western/eastern shifted than others. Look at the PCA plots.

[wvwvw]

It does. Mostly aimed towards France. Same can be explained by my DNA.land results

http://i.imgur.com/hKHAmxj.png

What is established is that most Albanians are 0% Slavic.

Having 0% Slavic makes you inferior ;)

[Wrong]

Having 0% Slavic makes you inferior ;)
I can feel my superior non-Slavic Thracian blood boiling in my veins everytime. :D

[Danaan]

It does. Mostly aimed towards France. Same can be explained by my DNA.land results

http://i.imgur.com/hKHAmxj.png

What is established is that most Albanians are 0% Slavic.

The correct phrase isn't "Slavic" because some Slavs, like the orginal Croats weren't very Eastern European like. They came from a region close to Bavaria according to the Greek texts (irrespective the things most slavicists say). I personally believe that the orginal Slavs were more Western-shifted than everyone in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Some (not all) of the R1a in the region may be even Avar or Bulgar.

[Dick]

The correct phrase isn't "Slavic" because some Slavs, like the orginal Croats weren't very Eastern European like. They came from a region close to Bavaria according to the Greek texts (irrespective the things most slavicists say). I personally believe that the orginal Slavs were more Western-shifted than everyone in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Some (not all) of the R1a in the region may be even Avar or Bulgar.

CROATS ARE FROM UKRAINE

[Wrong]

The correct phrase isn't "Slavic" because some Slavs, like the orginal Croats weren't very Eastern European like. They came from a region close to Bavaria according to the Greek texts (irrespective the things most slavicists say). I personally believe that the orginal Slavs were more Western-shifted than everyone in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. Some (not all) of the R1a in the region may be even Avar or Bulgar.
Poland they are close to in shift. Their R1a is also from there mostly. Croats also have northwest input, of course, but that is not from the Slavic source.

Look, I wouldnt care if I had some Eastern European % on 23andme, but I don't. Don't blame me.

[Danaan]

CROATS ARE FROM UKRAINE

You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care. But only what Nada Klaić had said is consistent with the Greek sources.


Nada Klaić considered Croats arrived from Carantania, rather than Lesser Poland

[Sakis]

Bulgarians and Thessalian Greeks overlap, not surprised. But not completely overlapping. Albanians shift WEST, not east, which shows they have less Slavic influence than Greece.

Where do you see that?

[Dick]

You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care. But only what Nada Klaić had said is consistent with the Greek sources.

MAKES SENSE. CARANTANIA=CROATIA

[Hoxhaism]

Having 0% Slavic makes you inferior ;)

slavs are depigmented turanic.

[Wrong]

You can believe whatever you want. I really don't care. But only what Nada Klaić had said is consistent with the Greek sources.
Originally from the Vistula.

[Dick]

Originally from the Vistula.

CARANTANIA=CROATIA :rolleyes:

[Wrong]

When we look at northern components, Albanians have overwhelming northwestern and low northeastern.

Eupedia maps are not 100% correct, but gives an idea:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/West-European-admixture.gif

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/East-European-admixture.gif

[Voskos]

nai raine o rottengreek eimai...

[wvwvw]

slavs are depigmented turanic.

Slavs are beautiful don't be jealous :cool:

[Hoxhaism]

slavs are depigmented turanic.

and also slavs were dark swarthy mongoloids from central asia who migrated to eastern europe and mixed with europeans.

[Hoxhaism]

Slavs are beautiful don't be jealous :cool:

beautiful??? bahaha

[poiuytrewq0987]

When we look at northern components, Albanians have overwhelming northwestern and low northeastern.

Eupedia maps are not 100% correct, but gives an idea:





Don't forget the Kutmichevitsa Slavs you assimilated. ;)

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite-avtohtonen%20-1.gif

[poiuytrewq0987]

I wonder where slovenes cluster

Probably around where Croats are, if not slightly more northwards.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UCP5T1pduGU/TzpBa9QbK3I/AAAAAAAAEe4/_uWuqnnb1zQ/s1600/1_2.png

[Hoxhaism]

Don't forget the Kutmichevitsa Slavs you assimilated. ;)

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite-avtohtonen%20-1.gif

:picard1:
there are no assimilated slavs in albania, even if their are we can tell them a mile away by their semi mongoloid faces and avoid them like the black plague.

[Voskos]

and also slavs were dark swarthy mongoloids from central asia who migrated to eastern europe and mixed with europeans.

nope. South Slavs are Illyrians and Triballians who got slavicized over the years.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I didn't know Croats were so north shift

Cool thanks for sharing ;)

I think they are mixed German-Slav-Illyrians. It makes them pretty much Central-European as genetically they are in between North and South Europe.

[Hoxhaism]

nope. South Slavs are Illyrians and Triballians who got slavicized over the years.

no, albanians are illyrians.
Slavs are slavs.

[Voskos]

no, albanians are illyrians.
Slavs are slavs.

illyrians stretched from Northern Albania up to central europe. Albanians aren't their only descendants.

[Hoxhaism]

illyrians stretched from Northern Albania up to central europe. Albanians aren't their only descendants.

slavs came and pushed us down to modern albania and stole our lands, relations with them were hostile so i doubt illyrians mixed with them at all.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

slavs came and pushed us down to modern albania and stole our lands, relations with them were hostile so i doubt illyrians mixed with them at all.

Hm. It is impossible for that to be 100% true though as otherwise Croats would be just like Poles or Russians. Croats plot as Central-Europeans, definitely south of Poles/Russians, even south of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians. They are very Central-European in genetic make-up. So they can not be pure Slavs who are very northern genetically. They must have other influence - don't know if it's Illyrian or what.

[GoneWithTheWind]

nope. South Slavs are Illyrians and Triballians who got slavicized over the years.

They got magically slavicized right. Croats and serbs were recorded arriving in the Balkans. Their original homeland was west Poland/south Poland/ukraine. They were also prior to that Iranian tribes from the Caucasus or atlest had an Iranian ruling elite.

They assimilated and mixed with some vlachs and Albanians.

Illyrians stretched from northern Greece all the way to Croatia.

With that kinda logic then, neither are modern Greeks only descendants of ancient Greeks and you also did mix with your Thracian and illyrian neighbors. So that would be like me saying Greeks are hellenized Thracians and illyrians but were did this hellenization come from in the first place. I doubt a minority can subjogate a majority.

[Voskos]

They got magically slavicized right. Croats and serbs were recorded arriving in the Balkans. Their original homeland was west Poland/south Poland/ukraine. They were also prior to that Iranian tribes from the Caucasus or atlest had an Iranian ruling elite.

They assimilated and mixed with some vlachs and Albanians.

Illyrians stretched from northern Greece all the way to Croatia.

With that kinda logic then, neither are modern Greeks only descendants of ancient Greeks and you also did mix with your Thracian and illyrian neighbors. So that would be like me saying Greeks are hellenized Thracians and illyrians but were did this hellenization come from in the first place. I doubt a minority can subjogate a majority.

there were no illyrians in northern Greece, at least not people who identified as Illyrian. But there were Thracians in Macedonia.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hdgmnPXrcbM/TIEven6oyGI/AAAAAAAAEUw/Bfv-4cih4VU/s1600/Extend+of+Paionia.bmp


neither are modern Greeks only descendants of ancient Greeks

This is true.There are people all over the Balkans with some ancient Greek blood, even in Western Turkish coast and in Southern Italy. But the difference in my opinion is that a lot of Illyrian, Dardanian, Triballian, Dacian and Thracian elements have survived in South Slavic languages, though it can't be proved due to a lack of texts written in these languages.

[wvwvw]

Hm. It is impossible for that to be 100% true though as otherwise Croats would be just like Poles or Russians. Croats plot as Central-Europeans, definitely south of Poles/Russians, even south of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians. They are very Central-European in genetic make-up. So they can not be pure Slavs who are very northern genetically. They must have other influence - don't know if it's Illyrian or what.

You can see that from their y-dna which is 50% Germanic (I)

[Wrong]

Don't forget the Kutmichevitsa Slavs you assimilated. ;)

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite-avtohtonen%20-1.gif

That goes for Tosks. Gegnians drove them out :D

[Wrong]

You can see that from their y-dna which is 50% Germanic (I)
Is not.

Germanic is Indo-European aka certain R1 clades.

It would be like saying Sardinia is 60% Germanic.

[Wrong]

This I2 clade is more "Germanic"

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

[Wrong]

illyrians stretched from Northern Albania up to central europe. Albanians aren't their only descendants.
Yamnaya's were the ancestors of the Illyrians, Spartans, Dacians and they were R1b-L23 which reaches up to 25% frequency in Albania and Peloponnesse.

R1b-L23 or any R1b in Serbs or Bosniaks doesn't even equal above 5%.

[GoneWithTheWind]

there were no illyrians in northern Greece, at least not people who identified as Illyrian. But there were Thracians in Macedonia.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hdgmnPXrcbM/TIEven6oyGI/AAAAAAAAEUw/Bfv-4cih4VU/s1600/Extend+of+Paionia.bmp



This is true.There are people all over the Balkans with some ancient Greek blood, even in Western Turkish coast and in Southern Italy. But the difference in my opinion is that a lot of Illyrian, Dardanian, Triballian, Dacian and Thracian elements have survived in South Slavic languages, though it can't be proved due to a lack of texts written in these languages.

Dardanian elements can be found in Albanian going by just some of the words and toponyms that are left of them. Meanwhile these words have no mutual meaning in the south Slavic languages. So I highly doubt they have more connection than Albanian.

We know they mingled with vlachs and Albanians so of course they have some influence both in genetics, culture and languages but to claim them as their direct ancestors is just nonsense and this has already been shown by autosomal DNA. Serbs, bulgarians and fyroms cluster more south so far because it shows they are more mixed with vlach and albanians.

Illyrian and Thracian words can also be found in the Greek language.

The Balkans was invaded by Slavic and avar tribes. This caused of course a crisis among the indigenous population. They had to get women, children and old people into safety and these were usually mountainous areas. Slavs in Croatia pillaged the whole Croatia and burned down cities and towns. Vlachs were not assimilated until much later when they came down from the mountains and when Slavs, that formed their empires, started marging south.

Dardania was also pillaged and even pre ottoman statistics show that there was an indigenous Albanian and vlach minority there the whole time. The vlachs disappeared in the area after ottoman occupation. They became assimilated into the Serb orthodox church. Before ottoman occupation it was by Stefan dusans code not allowed to mingle with vlachs but it was allowed to mingle with Albanians which were called Arbanasi. So it's logical that more Albanians were serbianized rather than vlachs. And even some of the Albanians there had plenty of Serbian-Albanian names.

However after ottoman occupation the Albanian minority grew and it wasn't just migrations from malsi I can tell you. Malsi migrations were mostly a small number of families that fled blood feuds. And they were recorded around 17th-18th century, there was already a large Albanian population in Kosovo by then and I can tell you it was the result of the growth of a indigenous population. This is also what Noel says.

Tribes were mostly founded in areas that had no government control like mountainous areas. Some non tribal people also joined tribes for protection as many of these tribes were powerful clans that even stood against the ottomans.

you need to also remember south slavs have some avar blood. Then there were goths and Normans that settled there before in croatia etc So they basically represent everything that has settled there.

There were also some vlachs that spilled south from Croatia and bosnia and into Albania and even some Albanians have tales coming from Herzegovina.

Northern Greece was Greco-illyrian area and epirotes were mixed with the southern ilyrians which also Strabo mentions and even refers to the epirotes as non Greeks.

Now please stop this whole south Slav are ilyrian bullshit as it's been discussed 100 times before.

They mostly assimilated vlachs and Albanian lowlanders and not "ilyrians" as that word was rarely used to refer to these people...you might aswell say they are slavicized Vlachs + Albanians. Even that is much more correct.

Vlachs have a mysterious origin. Their origin isn't anymore obvious than the Albanian origin. However Albanian represents a paleo Balkan language, vlach doesn't.

[Wrong]

there were no illyrians in northern Greece, at least not people who identified as Illyrian. But there were Thracians in Macedonia.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hdgmnPXrcbM/TIEven6oyGI/AAAAAAAAEUw/Bfv-4cih4VU/s1600/Extend+of+Paionia.bmp



This is true.There are people all over the Balkans with some ancient Greek blood, even in Western Turkish coast and in Southern Italy. But the difference in my opinion is that a lot of Illyrian, Dardanian, Triballian, Dacian and Thracian elements have survived in South Slavic languages, though it can't be proved due to a lack of texts written in these languages.

Source: Greek blogger

[Voskos]

Source: Greek blogger

there is no historian mentioning an Illyrian presence in modern territory of Greece, sorry.

[Voskos]

Dardanian elements can be found in Albanian going by just some of the words and toponyms that are left of them. Meanwhile these words have no mutual meaning in the south Slavic languages. So I highly doubt they have more connection than Albanian.

We know they mingled with vlachs and Albanians so of course they have some influence both in genetics, culture and languages but to claim them as their direct ancestors is just nonsense and this has already been shown by autosomal DNA. Serbs, bulgarians and fyroms cluster more south so far because it shows they are more mixed with vlach and albanians.

Illyrian and Thracian words can also be found in the Greek language.

The Balkans was invaded by Slavic and avar tribes. This caused of course a crisis among the indigenous population. They had to get women, children and old people into safety and these were usually mountainous areas. Slavs in Croatia pillaged the whole Croatia and burned down cities and towns. Vlachs were not assimilated until much later when they came down from the mountains and when Slavs, that formed their empires, started marging south.

Dardania was also pillaged and even pre ottoman statistics show that there was an indigenous Albanian and vlach minority there the whole time. The vlachs disappeared in the area after ottoman occupation. They became assimilated into the Serb orthodox church. Before ottoman occupation it was by Stefan dusans code not allowed to mingle with vlachs but it was allowed to mingle with Albanians which were called Arbanasi. So it's logical that more Albanians were serbianized rather than vlachs. And even some of the Albanians there had plenty of Serbian-Albanian names.

However after ottoman occupation the Albanian minority grew and it wasn't just migrations from malsi I can tell you. Malsi migrations were mostly a small number of families that fled blood feuds. And they were recorded around 17th-18th century, there was already a large Albanian population in Kosovo by then and I can tell you it was the result of the growth of a indigenous population. This is also what Noel says.

Tribes were mostly founded in areas that had no government control like mountainous areas. Some non tribal people also joined tribes for protection as many of these tribes were powerful clans that even stood against the ottomans.

you need to also remember south slavs have some avar blood. Then there were goths and Normans that settled there before in croatia etc So they basically represent everything that has settled there.

There were also some vlachs that spilled south from Croatia and bosnia and into Albania and even some Albanians have tales coming from Herzegovina.

Northern Greece was Greco-illyrian area and epirotes were mixed with the southern ilyrians which also Strabo mentions and even refers to the epirotes as non Greeks.

Now please stop this whole south Slav are ilyrian bullshit as it's been discussed 100 times before.

They mostly assimilated vlachs and Albanian lowlanders and not "ilyrians" as that word was rarely used to refer to these people...you might aswell say they are slavicized Vlachs + Albanians. Even that is much more correct.

Vlachs have a mysterious origin. Their origin isn't anymore obvious than the Albanian origin. However Albanian represents a paleo Balkan language, vlach doesn't.

strabo says they were barbarians, he doesn't say they were Illyrians. Thracians were also barbarians, does that make them Illyrian as well?

[poiuytrewq0987]

:picard1:
there are no assimilated slavs in albania, even if their are we can tell them a mile away by their semi mongoloid faces and avoid them like the black plague.

I have to disagree; if Albanians truly did not have any Slavic/East European, then they would not score any Eastern European on Gedmatch calculator. They do score at least 10%, and probably as high as 20%. Western European ancestry predominates, however; likely through an older Etruscan link. The Albanians tend to score like this: Mediterranean, Western European or West Asian/Caucasus then Eastern European. For the Greeks, just flip the Western and Eastern Europeans.

[shalnjon]

I have to disagree; if Albanians truly did not have any Slavic/East European, then they would not score any Eastern European on Gedmatch calculator. They do score at least 10%, and probably as high as 20%. Western European ancestry predominates, however; likely through an older Etruscan link. The Albanians tend to score like this: Mediterranean, Western European or West Asian/Caucasus then Eastern European. For the Greeks, just flip the Western and Eastern Europeans.

Yeah very true!

[Hoxhaism]

That goes for Tosks. Gegnians drove them out :D

:picard1:

[Hoxhaism]

I have to disagree; if Albanians truly did not have any Slavic/East European, then they would not score any Eastern European on Gedmatch calculator. They do score at least 10%, and probably as high as 20%. Western European ancestry predominates, however; likely through an older Etruscan link. The Albanians tend to score like this: Mediterranean, Western European or West Asian/Caucasus then Eastern European. For the Greeks, just flip the Western and Eastern Europeans.

Sources?
most albanians i know of score mostly mediterranean and west european.

[Hithaeglir]

This must be the 100738473847th plot about how Balkaners cluster :P It's always the same guys,aren't you bored to discuss the same stuff after 2 years? xD

[poiuytrewq0987]

Sources?
most albanians i know of score mostly mediterranean and west european.
My source is the results posted here by Albanian members. :P

[poiuytrewq0987]

This must be the 100738473847th plot about how Balkaners cluster :P It's always the same guys,aren't you bored to discuss the same stuff after 2 years? xD

The same basic idea, yes, but it's always interesting to see where we plot because it tells how different or similar we are. I probably wouldn't have learned that Romanians are practically the same as Bulgarians if it wasn't for PCA plots and the like.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The same basic idea, yes, but it's always interesting to see where we plot because it tells how different or similar we are. I probably wouldn't have learned that Romanians are practically the same as Bulgarians if it wasn't for PCA plots and the like.

hallo cousin

(I have Transylvanian blood)

[Voskos]

Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1

Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks


Makes a clear distinction between Epeirotes and Illyrians.

[shalnjon]

Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1

Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks


Makes a clear distinction between Epeirotes and Illyrians.

Epirots were genocided by the Romans and later Albanians started settling there, following a massive influx of Greeks, Slavs and Vlachs which makes the population of modern south Albania (toskeria as we call it here).

[poiuytrewq0987]

hallo cousin

(I have Transylvanian blood)

Hello. :P Care to elaborate on your Transylvanian background?

[Hoxhaism]

Epirots were genocided by the Romans and later Albanians started settling there, following a massive influx of Greeks, Slavs and Vlachs which makes the population of modern south Albania (toskeria as we call it here).

no it doesn't :picard1:

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Hello. :P Care to elaborate on your Transylvanian background?

Well, They were Transylvanian Saxons that must have mixed somewhat with native Transylvanians because my 17th chromosome is really 'Balkan' on 23andme (don't know where else the 'Balkan' could have come from - it is the only side of the family anywhere around the Balkans).

[Voskos]

Epirots were genocided by the Romans and later Albanians started settling there, following a massive influx of Greeks, Slavs and Vlachs which makes the population of modern south Albania (toskeria as we call it here).

Epirote Greeks= Greeks+Epeirotes
Epirote Albanians= Tosks+ native Epeirotes

[poiuytrewq0987]

Well, They were Transylvanian Saxons that must have mixed somewhat with native Transylvanians because my 17th chromosome is really 'Balkan' on 23andme (don't know where else the 'Balkan' could have come from - it is the only side of the family anywhere around the Balkans).

I don't know if they mixed with the locals, but it certainly isn't impossible. It may have been rare, however. For instance, Romania's current president looks like he just arrived from Germany yesterday. :laugh:

[shalnjon]

Epirote Greeks= Greeks+Epeirotes
Epirote Albanians= Tosks+ native Epeirotes

Nah, there are no Epirote Albanians. Most of modern epirus was settled by northern Albanians and then as I said, they mixed with Greeks (all kinds, northern, macedonian, peloponesian), Vlachs and Slavs.

[Wrong]

Epirote Greeks= Greeks+Epeirotes
Epirote Albanians= Tosks+ native Epeirotes

"Epirote Greeks" from the Ancient times no longer exist.

Epirus was a totally barren wasteland when Albanians arrived there.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I don't know if they mixed with the locals, but it certainly isn't impossible. It may have been rare, however. For instance, Romania's current president looks like he just arrived from Germany yesterday. :laugh:

Yeah, I know, it must have happened though, my Balkan is above noise level. It takes up nearly my whole 17th chromosome (in reality that isn't so much but it would be really weird for that to be inaccurate).

[Danaan]

Epirote Greeks= Greeks+Epeirotes

What?

[Voskos]

Epirus was a totally barren wasteland when Albanians arrived there.

source

[Voskos]

What?

ellhnika fyla pou anamixthhkan me ithageneis hpeirwtes. ti sou kanei entypwsh?

[Wrong]

Epirote Greeks= Greeks+Epeirotes
HAHAHAHAHAHA

[pelikarski]

There;s one Bulgarian in the cluster

[Voskos]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

3 posts higher you replied to the same post, now it makes you laugh real hard. go take your meds.

[Danaan]

ellhnika fyla pou anamixthhkan me ithageneis hpeirwtes. ti sou kanei entypwsh?

Epirotes were Greeks. They weren't Hellenes though.

Epirus and Thessaly is the proto-Greek region according to some. Who are these natives?

[Wrong]

3 posts higher you replied to the same post, now it makes you laugh real hard. go take your meds.
Fudgepacker of Creta

[Antimage]

There;s one Bulgarian in the cluster

I see 5

[Voskos]

Epirotes were Greeks. They weren't Hellenes though.

Epirus and Thessaly is the proto-Greek region according to some. Who are these natives?

I'm trying to follow MONEY's logic who uses Strabo to differentiate Greeks from native ''barbarian'' Epeirotes. It is not my personal opinion on the issue.

[Voskos]

Fudgepacker of Creta

albanian muslim immigrant showing his level.

[Voskos]

Post your Swedish ID card again, muslim immigrant Kurgan!

[Danaan]

Ok.

@ Albanians

The Hellenes were one tribe that may have originated in Epirus or near Epirus, probably ruled over Thessaly and expanded towards the south. 'Hellas' geographically was just South Greece, Classical Greece.

What language the Epirotes used is apparent though from inscriptions, coins, placenames etc.

Also about the relationship between Illyrians and Epirotes I have shown that to Laberia once:
http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias4B.html

I have told the facts relating to Pyrrhus the son of Aeacides in my account of the Athenians.41 Procles the Carthaginian42 indeed rated Alexander the son of Philip higher on account of his good fortune and for the brilliance of his achievements, but said that Pyrrhus was the better man in infantry and cavalry tactics and in the invention of stratagems of war.

[4.35.5] When the Epirots were rid of their kings, the people threw off all control and disdained to listen to their magistrates, and the Illyrians who live on the Ionian sea above Epirus reduced them by a raid. We have yet to hear of a democracy bringing prosperity to a nation other than the Athenians; the Athenians attained to greatness by its means, for they surpassed the Greek world in native wit, and least disregarded the established laws.

[shalnjon]

Ok.

@ Albanians

The Hellenes were one tribe that may have originated in Epirus or near Epirus, probably ruled over Thessaly and expanded towards the south. 'Hellas' geographically was just South Greece, Classical Greece.

What language the Epirotes used is apparent though from inscriptions, coins, placenames etc.

Also about the relationship between Illyrians and Epirotes I have shown that to Laberia once:
http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias4B.html

I am buying a printer just so I can print out Greek sources and use them as toilet paper. The only thing this entire wall of text is worth is cleaning my shit with.

[Danaan]

Pyrrhus was an Aeacid, that means descendant of Achilles.

[Voskos]

Yes, Pyrrus was Aeacid but shalnjon is Shala clan, hence the low brain capacity and butthurt posting.

[Insuperable]

Hm. It is impossible for that to be 100% true though as otherwise Croats would be just like Poles or Russians. Croats plot as Central-Europeans, definitely south of Poles/Russians, even south of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians. They are very Central-European in genetic make-up. So they can not be pure Slavs who are very northern genetically. They must have other influence - don't know if it's Illyrian or what.

Obviously. But what Croats found on their way here was a Roman population, Italian and Greek speaking. Both historical and archeological records show that starting from the 9th century slavic and roman population started living together and mixing.

[Wrong]

youre the one chimping here not me, I didnt say you were from caucasus. T is not African, same way J is not Arab even though it peaks in Arabs.

J peaks in Ingush of Caucasus.

T peaks in Eastern Africa.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Obviously. But what Croats found on their way here was a Roman population, Italian and Greek speaking. Both historical and archeological records show that starting from the 9th century slavic and roman population started living together and mixing.

Ah, so you are Roman/Slav mixes :)

[Insuperable]

Ah, so you are Roman/Slav mixes :)

Yes, but not Roman as in Rome, but as Roman Empire.

[Voskos]

J peaks in Ingush of Caucasus.

T peaks in Eastern Africa.

Since when is frequency used to determine an haplogroup's origin? There are no African haplogroups downstream of GHIJK split. any presence in africa is back-migration. unless you have evidence of the opposite, which i invite you to post.

[Voskos]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Yap_tree.gif

http://arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/FTDNA-Y-DNAmap-2009.jpg

[Sokoli]

Ok.

@ Albanians

The Hellenes were one tribe that may have originated in Epirus or near Epirus, probably ruled over Thessaly and expanded towards the south. 'Hellas' geographically was just South Greece, Classical Greece.

What language the Epirotes used is apparent though from inscriptions, coins, placenames etc.

Also about the relationship between Illyrians and Epirotes I have shown that to Laberia once:


6 centuries ago, Skanderbeg made no distinction between Epirotes and Albanians. Other contemporaneous authors did the same

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/s5aa2084aa7f23fc3/image/i535e0b384eafa4e0/version/1433400576/image.jpg

6 centuries later, the population of north and south Epirus is genetically the same and it is this population that is labeled as AL in genetic tests. The sea in front of Epirus is named in Albanian "our sea". Deti Jon (https://www.google.al/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=deti%20jon) where jon is the root of ion-ian. The "ian" suffix is a common suffix added to many words, including alban-ian.

Anyway, if you think Epirotes were Greeks, download the genetic chart below, and draw a circle where do you think the genes of Epirotans have ended up now, to justify your hypothesis about mixing, movement and so on.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62262&d=1475332554

[Voskos]

:picard2:

[Danaan]

6 centuries ago, Skanderbeg made no distinction between Epirotes and Albanians. Other contemporaneous authors did the same

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/none/path/s5aa2084aa7f23fc3/image/i535e0b384eafa4e0/version/1433400576/image.jpg

6 centuries later, the population of north and south Epirus is genetically the same and it is this population that is labeled as AL in genetic tests. The sea in front of Epirus is named in Albanian "our sea". Deti Jon (https://www.google.al/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=deti%20jon) where jon is the root of ion-ian. The "ian" suffix is a common suffix added to many words, including alban-ian.

Anyway, if you think Epirotes were Greeks, download the genetic chart below, and draw a circle where do you think the genes of Epirotans have ended up now, to justify your hypothesis about mixing, movement and so on.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62262&d=1475332554

I don't think that. They were.

Can you translate that?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Epirus234bc.jpg

Epeiros, Apeiros are Greek words
Pyrrhos is a Greek word. Pyrrhos wan an Aeacid.

I really don't know what Albanians are but for me they may have Roman and some Greek ancestry and also ancestry from a group of Balkanites who spoke a Germanic-like language. I believe that the migration of Croats caused a displacement of Roman settlers from Dalmatia. That should have affected Montenegro at least but maybe not only that.
Besides, even if Albanians have no Greek ancestry at all they may have Dardanian ancestry and Dardanians were classified as Greeks by Romans. They were a related group.
Also we don't know if Greeks and Illyrians were significantly different autosomally.

[Danaan]

I should clarify that Dardanians in Illyria were classified as Illyrians. Dardanians (Trojans) were thought to have been entirely Greek by Romans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

[wvwvw]

Is not.

Germanic is Indo-European aka certain R1 clades.

It would be like saying Sardinia is 60% Germanic.

M26 (the most common Sardinian linage) evolved in isolation 7000 years ago. The closest linage to this is the Germanic I-M170.

M26 is also found in western Europe. It can't be Slavic. Sardinians are also the most western shifted Europeans.

[Sokoli]

I don't think that. They were.

Can you translate that?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Epirus234bc.jpg

Epeiros, Apeiros are Greek words
Pyrrhos is a Greek word. Pyrrhos wan an Aeacid.

I really don't know what Albanians are but for me they may have Roman and some Greek ancestry and also ancestry from a group of Balkanites who spoke a Germanic-like language. I believe that the migration of Croats caused a displacement of Roman settlers from Dalmatia. That should have affected Montenegro at least but maybe not only that.
Besides, even if Albanians have no Greek ancestry at all they may have Dardanian ancestry and Dardanians were classified as Greeks by Romans. They were a related group.
Also we don't know if Greeks and Illyrians were significantly different autosomally.

Sure, I can translate that. The object is a coin. Money was invented to facilitate exchanges, that before money were done in nature. All that can be done with money is to give it to someone else in exchange for some goods.
Epi means give. Rotan means disk. Epi-rotan means a disk meant to be given. In other words, a coin, which is why it is written on a coin.

Forget for a moment about Illyrians, Romans, Dacians, etc. Just draw on a genetic chart where do you think the genes of Epirotans have ended up. Coins ca be falsified, can be destroyed. Not so with people.

[Wrong]

M26 (the most common Sardinian linage) evolved in isolation 7000 years ago. The closest linage to this is the Germanic I-M170.

M26 is also found in western Europe. It can't be Slavic. Sardinians are also the most western shifted Europeans.

South Slavs despite being overwhelming I2a1b quite eastern-shifted.

None of these are Germanic.

[wvwvw]

Illyrian and Thracian words can also be found in the Greek language.

How can there be any Illyrian words in the Greek language when Illyrians didn't exist yet and didn't even call themselves that? They had a primitive language like most tribes who encountered the advanced Greeks who had terms for most things?

Illyrian is a Hybrid of the language of Cadmu's Enchelenes, i.e Greek and the indigenous Italo-Celtic language since the Enhelenes colonised Illyria in 1400 BC.

[poiuytrewq0987]

South Slavs despite being overwhelming I2a1b quite eastern-shifted.

None of these are Germanic.

The Mediterranean influence is also huge in South Slavs. In my Dodecad V3 calculator, we can see that the South Slavs before becoming Slavicized used to be predominantly Western European/Mediterranean, but this changed to Eastern European/Mediterranean after the migrations.

This is my V3. In some other calculators, the Eastern European is almost as high as 41 or 42%, but V3 shows a strong Mediterranean slant.


<tbody>
#
Population
Percent


1
Mediterranean
35.47


2
East_European
30.49


3
West_European
17.67


4
West_Asian
12.57


5
Southwest_Asian
2.05


6
Northeast_Asian
1.46


7
Neo_African
0.19


8
Southeast_Asian
0.1

</tbody>

[Laberia]

Ok.

@ Albanians

The Hellenes were one tribe that may have originated in Epirus or near Epirus, probably ruled over Thessaly and expanded towards the south. 'Hellas' geographically was just South Greece, Classical Greece.

What language the Epirotes used is apparent though from inscriptions, coins, placenames etc.

Also about the relationship between Illyrians and Epirotes I have shown that to Laberia once:
http://www.theoi.com/Text/Pausanias4B.html

I have an simple question: How can be at the same time a person greek and barbar?

[wvwvw]

I have an simple question: How can be at the same time a person greek and barbar?

They spoke different dialects.

[wvwvw]

The Greek language was still evolving forward.

That stopped after the Greek alphabet was standardized.

According Dionysios Thrakos, Aristotelis, 'Erodotos and Grimm, Greek evolved FORWARDS and then stopped evolving when the Greeks began using the Cadmian Alphabet which preserved the sounds of the Greek letters perfectly. That is why the Greek Voiced consonants never evolved into Voiceless ones, and why Greek kept its Voiced Aspirated consonants whereas all other Indo-European languages lost them.

The Greek alphabet made it impossible to change the pronounciation of Greek. That is Greek pronounciation has remained pretty much the same since then.

[Danaan]

I have an simple question: How can be at the same time a person greek and barbar?

Epirotes weren't Illyrians. Deal with it. Epiros is the 'proto-Greek' region.

The term 'Greek' wasn't used by Greeks, during the historical times. The Hellenes were just a small tribe originally which originated in Epirus and expanded towards the South.
Herodotus says the Hellenes branched off from the 'Pelasgians', the Dorians were Hellenic but the Athenians originally Pelasgian etc
So, all of them were 'Pelasgian' at some point. A tribe branched off and became powerful and others joined them.
Attic speakers considered Aeolic Greek 'barbarian' quite often.


Aristotle. Meteorologica, 1.14: "Rather we must take the cause of all these changes to be that, just as winter occurs in the seasons of the year, so in determined periods there comes a great winter of a great year and with it excess of rain. But this excess does not always occur in the same place. The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Hellenic world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes."

ἀλλὰ πάντων τούτων αἴτιον ὑποληπτέον ὅτι γίγνεται διὰ χρόνων εἱμαρμένων, οἷον ἐν
ταῖς κατ' ἐνιαυτὸν ὥραις χειμών, οὕτως περιόδου τινὸς μεγάλης μέγας χειμὼν καὶ ὑπερβολὴ ὄμβρων. αὕτη δὲ οὐκ ἀεὶ
κατὰ τοὺς αὐτοὺς τόπους, ἀλλ' ὥσπερ ὁ καλούμενος ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος κατακλυσμός· καὶ γὰρ οὗτος περὶ τὸν Ἑλληνικὸν
ἐγένετο τόπον μάλιστα, καὶ τούτου περὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα τὴν ἀρχαίαν. αὕτη δ' ἐστὶν ἡ περὶ Δωδώνην καὶ τὸν Ἀχελῷον·
[352b] οὗτος γὰρ πολλαχοῦ τὸ ῥεῦμα μεταβέβληκεν· ᾤκουν γὰρ οἱ Σελλοὶ ἐνταῦθα καὶ οἱ καλούμενοι τότε μὲν Γραικοὶ νῦν δ' Ἕλληνες

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greeks are closer to Tuscany than to most of balkans, like in any other sense

[Hoxhaism]

albanians are closer to Tuscany than to most of balkans, like in any other sense

fixed.

[brennus dux gallorum]

fixed.

:picard1:

for what reason should i talk about albania?

[Hoxhaism]

:picard1:

for what reason should i talk about albania?

i'm just fixing up facts.
Greeks are almost the same as other balkan people, albanians are more similar to tuscan.

[brennus dux gallorum]

i'm just fixing up facts.
Greeks are almost the same as other balkan people, albanians are more similar to tuscan.

:picard1::picard2::picard1::picard2:

in the diagram and all genetic researches it shows the exacly opposite, that Greeks are closer to tuscany than to balkans, and that albania is between Greeks and balkans. any other question?

[GoneWithTheWind]

Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1

Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks


Makes a clear distinction between Epeirotes and Illyrians.

He also distinguishes between epirotes and greeks as you can see. He does mention that epirotes are mixed with the southern illyrians and they were also most likely mixed with greeks and influenced in cilture and language even though he doesnt mention that. However it seems they were neither greeks or illyrians originally.

If were gonna say south slavs are indigenous balkanites then you might aswell get it correct and call them what they are: Vlachs!

[GoneWithTheWind]

:picard1::picard2::picard1::picard2:

in the diagram and all genetic researches it shows the exacly opposite, that Greeks are closer to tuscany than to balkans, and that albania is between Greeks and balkans. any other question?

No it doesnt. Those are only northern greeks who match albanians and tuscans

[brennus dux gallorum]

No it doesnt. Those are only northern greeks who match albanians and tuscans

that's true, i guess even though the particular research doesn't say such a thing, Southern Greeks are even more distant from albanians and closer to tuscany.

btw matching albanian means not matching tuscany

[wvwvw]

that's true, i guess even though the particular research doesn't say such a thing, Southern Greeks are even more distant from albanians and closer to tuscany.

btw matching albanian means not matching tuscany

It's the other way round, Albanians consistently plot with Tuscans while Greeks plot in a larger cluster that range from Tuscans to Sicilians.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's the other way round, Albanians plot with Tuscans while Greeks plot from Tuscans to Sicilians.

yes, that's what i am also saying, and there is no Greek plotting with balkans, unlike albanians who are between Greece/South/Central italy and balkans

[Constantine13]

Chart seems to capture the layers of Balkan history pretty well, every grouping representing a major wave/people in order of time bottom (oldest) to top (most recent). Each circle contributes to the population below it.

Oldest Layer: Neolithic + Paleolithic blend. Albos have more Paleolithic survival (more west-shifting); Greeks have more Med and Thracian (see next Layer).
Thracian/Dacian Layer: Old Steppe + Med layer, going down to northeastern Greece.
Central Euro/Illyrian: Central European-type invasion. People of Hallstat (Nordic) type may have come at this time.
New Steppe Layer: another steppe invasion, this time of previously marsh/forest dwellers. Slightly Uralized/Mongolized northern Euros. The Slavs, or "Neo-Danubians." Affected the more northern parts of the Balkans.

[Laberia]

Epirotes weren't Illyrians. Deal with it. Epiros is the 'proto-Greek' region.

The term 'Greek' wasn't used by Greeks, during the historical times. The Hellenes were just a small tribe originally which originated in Epirus and expanded towards the South.
Herodotus says the Hellenes branched off from the 'Pelasgians', the Dorians were Hellenic but the Athenians originally Pelasgian etc
So, all of them were 'Pelasgian' at some point. A tribe branched off and became powerful and others joined them.
Attic speakers considered Aeolic Greek 'barbarian' quite often.

I made you just a simple question.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary:
2. Hist. a. One not a Greek.