An Independent Northern Ireland

[Óttar]

What would an independent Northern Ireland be like? Not bound with the Republic or the United Kingdom. Would it be able to stand on its own? Would everyone get along? Would it be a great experiment in how a small self-ruled territory can survive or thrive? (Think about the implications for a Europe of 100 flags kind of scenario.)

I prefer this for its flag: A St. Patrick's cross, the yellow of the provincial flag and the Red Hand, a traditional northern Irish symbol identified with by both communities, in their own respective ways.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/2422342297_247d6d05df.jpg?v=0

One site campaigns for an "independent Ulster", but this is a misnomer as 3 of geographical Ulster's 9 counties are in the Republic.

Discuss.

[Wyn]

Would everyone get along?

Well obviously, an independent Northern Ireland is not going to attract the support of nationalists/republicans, so you'd have a fairly large chunk of the population whose political opinions haven't changed (realistically anything other than a 32 county Irish republic is going to be unacceptable). Never mind the unionists, who sincerely believe in the Union.

There is one group that I believe would be satisfied though - a small portion of "loyalists". I genuinely believe that the "Unionism" of many hardline loyalists in N. Ireland is just a manifestation of their opposition to a united Ireland. I don't doubt the likes of Ian Paisley and Sammy Wilson would love their own state.

But really, the biggest problem with the idea is that it serves no purpose. NI exists really as a means of the British govt withholding what strength they have on the island by drawing an arbitrary line. The line was drawn to keep as much of Ireland within the UK as possible. Without the union with GB, NI exists as an anomaly.

Just my 2c...

[Óttar]

But really, the biggest problem with the idea is that it serves no purpose. NI exists really as a means of the British govt withholding what strength they have on the island by drawing an arbitrary line.
Yes. The UK still governs Northern Ireland partly because of the sea lanes which are critical militarily.

But as far as I know, British troops have largely withdrawn from NI and actual residents do the policing? (i.e. PSNI) I've heard the British government would like to be done with NI because it is a strain on the government's budget.

If a campaign for independence in Scotland or England succeeded, it would make the Northern Irish situation even more interesting because then union with the United Kingdom (non-existent in this scenario) would be a complete anachronism.

[Treffie]

Would everyone get along?

Do people get along in the middle east? How long is a piece of string?

[British and Proud]

This is the unofficial flag of Ulster's independence movement:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg/600px-Flag_of_the_Ulster_Nation.svg.png

It is a combination of the Cross of St. Andrew and the Cross of St. Patrick with the Red Hand of Ulster - fusing Irish, Scottish and Gaelic identities.

You can find more about it on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_nationalism) and Ulster Nation (http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/) 'a third way for Ulster'.

[Wyn]

They'll need to stop that 'Ulster' stuff. :thumb001:

[Murphy]

Not sure how I would feel about it.. it would be the right step towards a united Ireland there can be no doubt about it, and I am willing to let the Loyalists go at their own pace. They cannot be rushed, a mentality that has been reinforced by the wrong sorts for years has to be carefully broken down.

As long as they can guarantee that it would not be a Protestant state for Protestant people, I wont be too loud in my criticisms.

[Wyn]

Not sure how I would feel about it.. it would be the right step towards a united Ireland there can be no doubt about it, and I am willing to let the Loyalists go at their own pace. They cannot be rushed, a mentality that has been reinforced by the wrong sorts for years has to be carefully broken down.

As long as they can guarantee that it would not be a Protestant state for Protestant people, I wont be too loud in my criticisms.

You'd want to be careful. An independent NI could be the nail in the coffin for the UI movement. NI has basically been one long process of normalisation and trying to turn the Irish population into a non-Irish population. Now, more and more Catholics are describing themselves as Northern Irish and are really just growing accustomed to being outside of an Irish republic. While NI is a part of the UK, the perpetual Unionist-Nationalist battle reinforces identities. But an independent NI could put an end to all that.

[Murphy]

You'd want to be careful. An independent NI could be the nail in the coffin for the UI movement. NI has basically been one long process of normalisation and trying to turn the Irish population into a non-Irish population. Now, more and more Catholics are describing themselves as Northern Irish and are really just growing accustomed to being outside of an Irish republic. While NI is a part of the UK, the perpetual Unionist-Nationalist battle reinforces identities. But an independent NI could put an end to all that.

Possibly, but an independent 6 Counties would also be a golden opportunity for the Republic. Britain will not really have any interest in economic investment in the north. There could be an argument that Westminster would help out of some sense of loyalty.. but we both know how hilarious that notion is.

That means in all reality the north will need to cooperate with the Republic on economic terms if it is to survive. The Republic can offer it investment opportunities. Both ways really.

And going via the Republic will also open up possibilities with Britain that wouldn't be possible with an isolated 6 Counties.

[British and Proud]

Possibly, but an independent 6 Counties would also be a golden opportunity for the Republic. Britain will not really have any interest in economic investment in the north. There could be an argument that Westminster would help out of some sense of loyalty.. but we both know how hilarious that notion is.

That means in all reality the north will need to cooperate with the Republic on economic terms if it is to survive. The Republic can offer it investment opportunities. Both ways really.

And going via the Republic will also open up possibilities with Britain that wouldn't be possible with an isolated 6 Counties.

If Northern Ireland became independent it would, like Eire, receive far more funding from the EU. It is as economically viable as Eire, IMHO.

[Beorn]

Now, more and more Catholics are describing themselves as Northern Irish and are really just growing accustomed to being outside of an Irish republic.

Indeed. The missus identifies as Catholic Northern Irish.

Mind you, when she goes "home" she gets called an English tart, so there we go.

[007]

If Northern Ireland became independent it would, like Eire, receive far more funding from the EU. It is as economically viable as Eire, IMHO.

True. The Eu would love an "independent" Ulster just as much as they love the "independent" Republic

[antonio]

Like Galicia being apart from Spain or Portugal: a complete historical, cultural, ethnological, etc...nosense, even if I acknowledge its economical viability to a certain degree. BTW an economical viability higher than Ulster one.

[Wyn]

Why would people who care about Northern Ireland so much actually want it to be part of the EU? Talking about selling out.

[Sahson]

If the irish like their land so much, why not make it autonomous, like Isle Of Man?

[007]

If the irish like their land so much, why not make it autonomous, like Isle Of Man?

Oddly enough, they stopped shouting "Freedom!" as soon as the EU offered them some dosh

[Liffrea]

I’m doubtful of an independent Northern Ireland, from what I have seen much of Northern Irish identity is rooted in links to the UK, they are probably far more pro-UK than anyone else in the union. As long as the UK exists Northern Ireland is always going to be a part of it.

The Republic is an economic basket case built on a short term bubble of investment for signing up to the Euro project. Ireland (now effectively bankrupt) is learning the hard way that Paris and Berlin come long before Dublin in the pecking order of economic priorities.

[Murphy]

The Republic is an economic basket case built on a short term bubble of investment for signing up to the Euro project. Ireland (now effectively bankrupt) is learning the hard way that Paris and Berlin come long before Dublin in the pecking order of economic priorities.

You speak as if the traitors in government were not perfectly aware of this when they sold the Irish people up the river?

[Wyn]

You speak as if the traitors in government were not perfectly aware of this when they sold the Irish people up the river?

That the RoI joined the EU is itself a rather astounding episode of history. Given that notions of independence and repression by foreign powers forms a pretty important aspect of the Irish political mindset, you would think that they (members of the Irish public) would do all within their power to avoid EU membership, even if their politicians wished for it. Were there any stirrings from the boys when Ireland joined?

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Eóin
You speak as if the traitors in government were not perfectly aware of this when they sold the Irish people up the river?

I don’t believe bankrupting your own state is a move elites would intentionally go for….true the possibility was probably known to more than a few, the UK would be on the bread line if we had listened to Mandelson and co, but don’t ascribe to malice what you can ascribe to stupidity and greed.


Originally Posted by Wynfrith
That the RoI joined the EU is itself a rather astounding episode of history.

Not really, it’s all simple cost/benefit. Of course you get the idealists who truly “believe” in the cause, usually golden agers banging on about freedom, country of our own etc, but for most it’s all about ££££££.

[Wyn]

Not really, it’s all simple cost/benefit. Of course you get the idealists who truly “believe” in the cause, usually golden agers banging on about freedom, country of our own etc, but for most it’s all about ££££££.

I understand and agree with this, certainly. I was talking more of the fact that there doesn't/didn't ever seem to be real opposition to it (or if there was I haven't read of it) given Ireland's political history. The concept of EU membership should be antithetical to everything Irish republicans stand for.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Wynfrith
I understand and agree with this, certainly. I was talking more of the fact that there doesn't/didn't ever seem to be real opposition to it (or if there was I haven't read of it) given Ireland's political history. The concept of EU membership should be antithetical to everything Irish republicans stand for.

None in England either, plenty of coughing and spluttering from various folks, mostly newspaper columnists mourning the death of a democracy we never had.

When I was in the BNP a regular topic of conversation would be when will the great rising up of the people take place? Everyone would agree it will come, it has to, it’s just another five years, five years pass and……maybe in the next five years. You know why the BNP aren’t in power?........because they are not in power, work it out.

At some point you realise most people just want to live their lives in the general self centredness that we all do, what is good for me? What can I gain/lose? Why should I care? Why should people care that they pay taxes to Brussels? Perhaps if the taxes are higher, laws? The people don’t make them anyway, so again, why care? Unless they actually impinge on you. We’ve all read of the EU law to extradite people from the UK to foreign courts for offences that probably aren’t even crimes in the UK……how many people do you personally know that have been? More to the point what are you really going to do to stop it? Seriously now.

I’m not saying things can’t change, of course they can, but if you’re relying on the public, don’t hold your breath. People want stability and they want to live their lives and keep their heads down, they want to fit in, and they will follow the crowd, who follow……whoever calls the tunes.

You can turn a mild mannered supermarket worker into a concentration camp guard overnight, a Briton into a European, in the same time, the hard work is getting into a position to do it, the rest is easy.

The EU won’t disappear under mobs of protestors.

[Orange&BlueBear]

An independent Ulster will never happen, it isn't sustainable and as for it being a step to a united Ireland, well that's just not going to happen, as there's still hundreds of thousands of us orange bastards in Ulster and more and more Roman Catholics are classing themselves as Northern-Irish and accept the reality of the benefits of being part of the U.K. and if people don't accept that, well you only have to look at the tens of thousands of citizens from the Republic of Ireland, some who even travel all the way from Cork (THE BOTTOM OF THE IRISH REPUBLIC) to shop in Northern Ireland on a weekly basis.

[Murphy]

I don’t believe bankrupting your own state is a move elites would intentionally go for….

Unless, of course, it is not the Irish state that they are loyal to, but instead the European super-state. In that case, bankrupting your local charge for increased reliance on your true master makes perfect sense.