Eurogenes Biogeographic Ancestry Project

[Pallantides]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/
Some of you might be interested in this, if you have tested yourself with 23andMe send your raw data to Polako if you wish to be included in the project.:)

http://bga101.blogspot.com/

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9625/intraeuro.png
I'm NO2(next to two Swedes)

[Electronic God-Man]

I think it's very interesting but I can never see where I am on his plots because of how many people are involved. :(

I'm US2. :(

[la bombe]

His admixture tests are kind of interesting, this is what I got on his last ones

On the New World:
91.1% West Eurasian
8.5% Amerindian
.4% African

West Eurasia:
Bedouin: 1.1%
North Euro: 66.3%
Middle-East: 9.4%
SW Euro: 19.6%
Druze: 1.9%
North African: 1.7%

Seems pretty consistent with my ancestry and my other tests results, like Dr. McDonald's

[Pallantides]

Mine

0% bedouin
81,2% Northern European
0% Middle Eastern
18.8% SW European
0% Druze
0% North African

[Pallantides]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/Imagem92.png
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/Imagem91-1.png



I think it's very interesting but I can never see where I am on his plots because of how many people are involved. :(

I'm US2. :(

It's a bit hard telling me apart(NO2) from SE2 on this one since we have the same symbol, but I believe I'm the one closer to Russians and Finns.

[Ibericus]

Spaniards between French and Norther Italians, looks legit

[Electronic God-Man]

My scores.

New World
99.998% West Eurasian

West Eurasia
Bedouin: 0%
North Euro: 68.1635%
Middle-East: 3.7575%
SW Euro: 28.0761%
Druze: 0%
North African: 0%

Pretty high Southwest European score, I think. But then again even Pallantides, a Norwegian, got 18.8% SW Euro. What did he use for the Southwestern sample groups?

[la bombe]

My scores.

New World
99.998% West Eurasian

West Eurasia
Bedouin: 0%
North Euro: 68.1635%
Middle-East: 3.7575%
SW Euro: 28.0761%
Druze: 0%
North African: 0%

Pretty high Southwest European score, I think. But then again even Pallantides, a Norwegian, got 18.8% SW Euro. What did he use for the Southwestern sample groups?

I believe the SW Euro sample was Sardinian.

[Electronic God-Man]

I believe the SW Euro sample was Sardinian.

Wouldn't that just be Southern? I was thinking more along the lines of Portuguese for Southwest.

[la bombe]

Wouldn't that just be Southern? I was thinking more along the lines of Portuguese for Southwest.

Dunno, but that's the sample he used.

[Ibericus]

Wouldn't that just be Southern? I was thinking more along the lines of Portuguese for Southwest.
In Southern Europe, contrary to popular belief, there are huge differences genetically. It's not the same a SouthWestern European (Basques, Sardinians) than South-Eastern europeans

[Pallantides]

Northern Europe
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3139/northeuro1.gif

EE- Estonian
FI - Finns
NO - Norwegians
PL - Poles
RU - Russians
SE - Swedes




Dunno, but that's the sample he used.

Is that not East Med, I thought the Basque were Atlanto-Med?

Mine(NO2)

West-Eurasian

East Mediterranean: 0,03429
Atlanto-Mediterranean: 0,148941
Middle Eastern: 0,00001
North European: 0,707048
East European: 0,109701
North African: 0,00001

North and Central Eurasia

North Eurasian: 0,006616
East Asian: 0,00001
West Eurasian: 0,982609
Native American: 0,008721
Northeast Asian: 0,002043

[Ibericus]

Btw it's exactly the Behar et al. study :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

[Pallantides]

Yes.:)

https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=204519&postcount=594



Behar et al 2010 vs. dimensions 1-2 of Eurogenes 500,000 SNP BGA Project

[la bombe]

My scores (US3)

East Med - 11.7 %
Altanto-Med - 20%
Middle Eastern - 3.49%
North Euro - 46%
East Euro - 15.9%
North African - 2.9%

Siberian - 2.2%
Native American - 7.2%
European - 90.2%
SSA - .42%

[Electronic God-Man]

My scores on the new ones....

Siberian: .3617%
Native American: .001%
European: 99.6363%
Sub-Saharan African: .001%

East Med: 7.7742%
Atlanto-Med: 21.1299%
Middle Eastern: 2.2427%
North European: 61.4054%
East European: 7.4469%
North African: .001%

North Eurasian: .7453%
East Asian: .001%
West Eurasian: 98.8027%
Native American (incl. proto-North Eurasian?): .45%
Northeast Asian: .001%

[Pallantides]

The tabell labeled as 'East European' peak in the Chuvash (over 90%)




So I wonder if this is something Uralic?

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3139/northeuro1.gif


OMG! Estonians clustering with Lithuanians?! Karl is definitely going to have a field day with this data!

[Electronic God-Man]

The tabell labeled as 'East European' peak in the Chuvash (over 90%)




So I wonder if this is something Uralic?

I'm actually 1/8 Lithuanian and I was wondering why my East Euro score wasn't that high. My East Euro score was similar to the groups that are fully Western Euro, so I was wondering if maybe the Lithuanians were thrown into the Northern Euro bunch.

If "East Euro" is something much more Eastern like Chuvash then that would make sense, I guess.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I'm actually 1/8 Lithuanian and I was wondering why my East Euro score wasn't that high. My East Euro score was similar to the groups that are fully Western Euro, so I was wondering if maybe the Lithuanians were thrown into the Northern Euro bunch.

If "East Euro" is something much more Eastern like Chuvash then that would make sense, I guess.

If that is the only Eastern European ancestry you have then it probably been washed out if the rest on your ancestry tree is of Western European descent. And that Northern European thing could be it too.

[Pallantides]

I'm actually 1/8 Lithuanian and I was wondering why my East Euro score wasn't that high. My East Euro score was similar to the groups that are fully Western Euro, so I was wondering if maybe the Lithuanians were thrown into the Northern Euro bunch.

If "East Euro" is something much more Eastern like Chuvash then that would make sense, I guess.

Poles and Russians are also more 'Northern European' than 'Eastern European' if going by this labeling.



Norwegians 'East European' scores

NO1 7% East European
NO2 11% East European
NO3 9% East European

[Pallantides]

Maybe this could explain the minor "Native American" and East Eurasian scores in Scandinavians:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19560

[Aino]

I'm actually 1/8 Lithuanian and I was wondering why my East Euro score wasn't that high. My East Euro score was similar to the groups that are fully Western Euro, so I was wondering if maybe the Lithuanians were thrown into the Northern Euro bunch.

If "East Euro" is something much more Eastern like Chuvash then that would make sense, I guess.

Lithuanians score 76% North Euro and 22% East Euro on average in this analysis, so your East Euro score of 7.5% is actually higher than expected just based on your Lithuanian ancestry alone.

Also, just to make sure people understand how the clustering programs work (I am not saying that you don't). You don't predefine any groups such as North Euros by indicating that some of the reference populations would represent such a group. The program does not even know which reference samples belong to the same population. It is only given the genetic data of the samples. It doesn't matter if it's a reference sample or a project participant. All samples are treated the same.

The only thing you tell the program is the number of clusters that you want it to produce. You then let the program work out the clusters all by itself based on the similarity of the samples. The clusters are named afterwards according to the populations that have the highest membership in each cluster.

My newest results:

West Eurasia
North European 69 %
East European 31 %
East Mediterranean 0 %
Atlanto-Mediterranean 0 %
Middle Eastern 0 %
North African 0 %

West, North & Central Eurasia
West Eurasian 91 %
North Eurasian 8 %
Native American (inc. proto-North-Eurasian?) 1 %
East Asian 0 %
Northeast Asian 0 %

I have also attached two charts that are based on averaged scores per population.

[Pallantides]

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/2791/no1h.png
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3170/no2v.png
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5351/no3n.png

[Electronic God-Man]

:D

I feel fairly mixed on this one...


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5903&d=1286064431

Not so much here though...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5904&d=1286064431

[Pallantides]

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/6521/no1westeurasia.png
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5650/no2westeurasia.png
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6271/no3westeurasia.png

There is no North African or Middle-Eastern influence in the Norwegian project members.


BTW for those who don't know, I'm NO2.

[Electronic God-Man]

Pallantides, what do you make of the Eastern Mediterranean numbers we're getting here? Why would Norwegians have that amount of East Med?

Answering that may help me figure out why I have quite a bit.

[Pallantides]

Pallantides, what do you make of the Eastern Mediterranean numbers we're getting here? Why would Norwegians have that amount of East Med?

Answering that may help me figure out why I have quite a bit.

Could be something Neolithic I guess.



A quick look at Aino's chart it seem 'east med' is fairly high in people from the Caucasus and Iran.

[Pallantides]

Eurasia and the Americas
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/Imagem95.png
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/Imagem96-1.png


I'm inside the Lithuenian(LT) cluster on this one.

[Stefan]

Hm I haven't received admixture results(or is there somewhere to find them?), I guess that's what I get from being away from forums for a while. I'm US6 on these if anybody's interested.

[Electronic God-Man]

Hm I haven't received admixture results(or is there somewhere to find them?), I guess that's what I get from being away from forums for a while. I'm US6 on these if anybody's interested.

Here's one you'll find interesting.

White Americans

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6071&d=1286398562

Soten = US2
Stefan = US6
la bombe = US3

I am waaaay too white for you guys. Also, la bombe seems to be more Amerindian than you, Stefan, even though you definitely look more exotic than her. Your ~exotic~ look must be the African.

And some charts for Stefan:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6072&d=1286400273

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6073&d=1286400273

I don't think they are very accurate because you are tri-racially mixed.

[Stefan]

I am waaaay too white for you guys. Also, la bombe seems to be more Amerindian than you, Stefan, even though you definitely look more exotic than her. Your ~exotic~ look must be the African.


It could be that my non-European ancestry affects my phenotype more specifically as well, so even without the African I could still have looked more exotic with less admixture, and I do of course have a lot more of it in total. Thank you for the graphs Soten. :)

Edit: My European ancestry seems to be evenly Northern and Southern, interesting.

[Electronic God-Man]

I'm not sure if I am wasting my time here, but I find it hard to visualize what all the info means without actually making graphs...so I have begun to do just that for some of the groups as a helpful reference. Someone may have already done this...

Here are the Belorussians, which I took to graphing to get a sense of what my Lithuanian ancestry would be like:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6074&d=1286405611
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6075&d=1286405611
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6076&d=1286405611
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6077&d=1286405611
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6078&d=1286405611
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6079&d=1286405611
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6080&d=1286406340
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6081&d=1286406340
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6082&d=1286406340

Now, averaging those out we may get a "typical Belorussian".

[Ibericus]

Here are the Belorussians, which I took to graphing to get a sense of what my Lithuanian ancestry would be like:

Did you know the samples includes also Lithuanians ?

[Electronic God-Man]

Did you know the samples includes also Lithuanians ?

Yeah, I see that. I hate country codes....

Anyway, the two Swiss samples are interesting:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6083&d=1286406648
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6084&d=1286406648

Much larger amounts of East Mediterranean than I would have expected.

[Electronic God-Man]

The Spanish samples:

[Electronic God-Man]

The Irish submitted samples:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6097&d=1286410351
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6098&d=1286410351
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6099&d=1286410351
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6100&d=1286410351
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6101&d=1286410351

[Electronic God-Man]

Here are our Lithuanians. Quite simple. ~25% Eastern European and ~75% Northern European.

[Ibericus]

The Spanish samples:
Thanks. It's easier seeing it like this. This confirms what I always said : Spain has the lowest middle-east of all Southern Europe, logical being the most western part of southern Europe..

[Electronic God-Man]

10 of the Romanians:

What's with the Atlanto-Med scores here?

[Ibericus]

10 of the Romanians:

What's with the Atlanto-Med scores here?
What do you mean, that they are low or high ?

[Guapo]

10 of the Romanians:

What's with the Atlanto-Med scores here?

Roman legionnaires from France!

[Electronic God-Man]

The 4 submitted Swedes:

[Electronic God-Man]

What do you mean, that they are low or high ?

They seemed rather high for being on the other side of Europe, not the Atlantic side.

[Guapo]

They seemed rather high for being on the other side of Europe, not the Atlantic side.

They claim to be descended from Roman soldiers, looks like it. How else would a Romance language be there anyway.

[Electronic God-Man]

10 of the Orcadians:

[Pallantides]

The 4 submitted Swedes:
Overall they are much more "East European" than the Norwegians,
could you make one with the Swedes Eurasian admixture?

[Electronic God-Man]

Overall they are much more "East European" than the Norwegians,
could you make one with the Swedes Eurasian admixture?

:)


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6145&d=1286513696
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6146&d=1286513696
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6147&d=1286513696
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6148&d=1286513696

[Electronic God-Man]

Why are the Lithuanians not on the Eurasian excel sheet?

[Pallantides]

It seems NO1 and SE1 are the most West Eurasian out of the Scandinavians and SE3 have the most North Eurasian and Proto N-Eurasian admixture.
Overall Norwegians seem to have less North Eurasian and Proto Eurasian admixture than the Swedes atleast going by these results.

[Electronic God-Man]

The Poles (Eurasian):


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6149&d=1286514557
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6150&d=1286514557
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6151&d=1286514557
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6152&d=1286514557

[Pallantides]

The Poles are more pure West Eurasian than the Swedes.

[Electronic God-Man]

It's too bad we don't have Danes on there.

[Pallantides]

You should do Norwegians also, as your graphs look much better than the shitty ones I made. ;)


these graphs are easier to show and explain to my mom and family members than a panel with a lot of numbers.:thumb001:

[Electronic God-Man]

You should do Norwegians also, as your graphs look much better than the shitty ones I made. ;)


these graphs are easier to show and explain to my mom and family members than a panel with a lot of numbers.:thumb001:

Sure and exactly.


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6153&d=1286516879
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6154&d=1286516879
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6155&d=1286516879

[Pallantides]

Here are the Norwegian and Swedish values for the new Intra-West Eurasian table:

NO1 0.00001 0.13882 0.76472 0.00001 0.09643 0.00001
NO2 0.03614 0.04053 0.80207 0.00001 0.12124 0.00001
NO3 0.01025 0.08871 0.77322 0.00001 0.12779 0.00001
NO5 0.00001 0.12304 0.74704 0.00001 0.12989 0.00001

SE1 0.08893 0.03327 0.78167 0.00001 0.09611 0.00001
SE2 0.00001 0.13546 0.72910 0.00001 0.13541 0.00001
SE3 0.02398 0.07906 0.68587 0.00001 0.21108 0.00001
SE4 0.01403 0.04815 0.76069 0.00001 0.17711 0.00001


I haven't figured them out yet.

[Grey]

Here are the Norwegian and Swedish values for the new Intra-West Eurasian table:

NO1 0.00001 0.13882 0.76472 0.00001 0.09643 0.00001
NO2 0.03614 0.04053 0.80207 0.00001 0.12124 0.00001
NO3 0.01025 0.08871 0.77322 0.00001 0.12779 0.00001
NO5 0.00001 0.12304 0.74704 0.00001 0.12989 0.00001

SE1 0.08893 0.03327 0.78167 0.00001 0.09611 0.00001
SE2 0.00001 0.13546 0.72910 0.00001 0.13541 0.00001
SE3 0.02398 0.07906 0.68587 0.00001 0.21108 0.00001
SE4 0.01403 0.04815 0.76069 0.00001 0.17711 0.00001


I haven't figured them out yet.

Yeah, I got the email with mine and my wife's today but we can't make sense of it.

Ours are:

US90 0.043743 0.317034 0.585966 0.000010 0.049281 0.003965
US91 0.063030 0.272621 0.654192 0.000010 0.010136 0.000010

[Pallantides]

One another board someone suggested it could be:

Caucasus
Mediterranean
Western/Northwestern Europe
Middle East
East Europe/Central Asia
North Africa




Here are the Finnish numbers

FI1 0.00001 0.02297 0.65889 0.00001 0.31811 0.00001
FI2 0.00001 0.00001 0.64149 0.00001 0.35847 0.00001
FI3 0.00001 0.00001 0.55172 0.00001 0.44824 0.00001

[Pallantides]

So I'm roughly

4% Caucasus
4% Mediterranean
80% Western/Northwestern Europe
0% Middle East
12% East Europe/Central Asia
0% North Africa

[Grey]

Hmm... my wife is about average for a French person (whereas on 23andme she clusters with the English and has a higher North European similarity), and according to this I'm more Mediterranean than even the average French person (but still less so than the Italians). That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense given our predominately North-European ancestry.

What does Caucasus mean here, and East Europe/Central Asia. My wife is the one with actual East European ancestors, yet I have a higher score for that.

[Electronic God-Man]

One another board someone suggested it could be:

Caucasus
Mediterranean
Western/Northwestern Europe
Middle East
East Europe/Central Asia
North Africa

Alright. Going by that I got:

Caucasus: 3.0562%
Mediterranean: 16.1894%
Western/Northwestern Euro: 71.7311%
Middle East: 0%
East Euro/Central Asia: 9.0213%
North Africa: 0%

[Pallantides]

Alright. Going by that I got:

Caucasus: 3.0562%
Mediterranean: 16.1894%
Western/Northwestern Euro: 71.7311%
Middle East: 0%
East Euro/Central Asia: 9.0213%
North Africa: 0%



You should make some graphs again:cool:

[Electronic God-Man]

You should make some graphs again:cool:

I was going to, but are we certain that those are the clusters?

[Pallantides]

I was going to, but are we certain that those are the clusters?

you could name them after cluster number(1 to 6)




me (NO2)

Cluster 3 - 80.207%
Cluster 5 - 12.124%
Cluster 2 - 4.053%
Cluster 1 - 3.614
Cluster 6 – 0.001%
Cluster 4 – 0.001%

[Electronic God-Man]

you could name them after cluster number(1 to 6)

Too late.


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6170&d=1286650439
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6171&d=1286650439
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6172&d=1286650439
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6173&d=1286650439

Is Polako going to say then what the clusters should be?

[Electronic God-Man]

Polako just said on 23andme that the Atlanto-Med group is now grouped in with the Northwestern Euro. So the Mediterranean group here must be Italian and Greek, etc.

I got 16% southern Euro.

[Grey]

Polako just said on 23andme that the Atlanto-Med group is now grouped in with the Northwestern Euro. So the Mediterranean group here must be Italian and Greek, etc.

I got 16% southern Euro.

Is Spanish Atlanto-Med or Med?

[Pallantides]

I got 4% southern Euro and 80% North Western Euro(highest of the forumites):cool:

[Ibericus]

Is Spanish Atlanto-Med or Med?
After Basques, spaniards have the highest Atlanto-Med. The Med is different and peaks in Jews

[Pallantides]

What does Caucasus mean here, and East Europe/Central Asia. My wife is the one with actual East European ancestors, yet I have a higher score for that.

The 'East European' are Chuvash from Central Russia.

'Caucasus' is Georgia.

[Aino]

I got 4% southern Euro and 80% North Western Euro(highest of the forumites):cool:

I have 0% southern Euro (Mediterranean), 0% Middle East, 0% Caucasus, and 0% North Africa. :cool:

[Ibericus]

Spaniards average 57 % NorthWest Euro, North Italians 49 % and French 65 %

[San Galgano]

------

[Pallantides]

I have 0% southern Euro (Mediterranean), 0% Middle East, 0% Caucasus, and 0% North Africa. :cool:


...

but you are still not as North Western as me!:D

[San Galgano]

-----

[Aino]

...

but you are still not as North Western as me!:D

:rolleyes:

I am the most northern sample on all the MDS plots. I win. :p

[Ibericus]

Pallantides mate, have you got the italian samples?
Here you have mate :

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3496/tusc.png

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7700/nit.png

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6339/itao.png

[San Galgano]

Thanks Iberia!
Where do you find them?


p.s
Is there the possibility to see the division in Atlanto-med, Nwest etc as the Romanian and Spanish sample?

I always heard there is a good percentage of atlanto-med in N.Italians and Tuscans, i'm curious to see.

[Pallantides]

:rolleyes:

I am the most northern sample on all the MDS plots. I win. :p


Yes you're a 100% pure Nordic godess...



I'm just a dirty north-western mongrel.

[Pallantides]

My top 10 matches(NO2)
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8382/no2first.jpg

[Pallantides]

West Eurasia, North Africa and South Central Asia (MDS map, dimensions 1&2)
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2087/eumescao.gif


with labels
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3074/eumescalabeled.jpg

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/10/west-eurasia-north-africa-and-south.html


* as always I'm NO2.

[Electronic God-Man]

Not sure what the new data proves...


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6265&d=1287974102

[Pallantides]

Norwegians

NO1:

South Indian: 2.3%

Amerindian: 0.8%

Mediterranean: 20.7%

Middle Eastern: 0.7%

North Eurasian: 0%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 0.5%

East African: 0%

West Eurasian: 4.2%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 70.6%

NO2(me):

South Indian: 0.8%

Amerindian: 0%

Mediterranean: 17.3%

Middle Eastern: 0%

North Eurasian: 1.6%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 1.5%

East African: 0%

West Eurasian: 4.6%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 74%

NO3:

South Indian: 1.1%

Amerindian: 0.1%

Mediterranean: 16%

Middle Eastern: 1.6%

North Eurasian: 1.6%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 0.1%

East African: 0%

West Eurasian: 7.5%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 71.6%


NO5:

South Indian: 0%

Amerindian: 0.02%

Mediterranean: 16.7%

Middle Eastern: 0%

North Eurasian: 0.7%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 2.5%

East African: 0.03%

West Eurasian: 7.2%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 72.6%


Swedes

SE1:

South Indian: 0.9%

Amerindian: 1.4%

Mediterranean: 14.3%

Middle Eastern: 4.4%

North Eurasian: 0%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 0.2%

East African: 0.06%

West Eurasian: 6.2%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 72.1%

SE2:

South Indian: 1.9%

Amerindian: 0%

Mediterranean: 15.1%

Middle Eastern: 7%

North Eurasian: 1.2%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 1.5%

East African: 0%

West Eurasian: 2.6%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 70.3%

SE3:

South Indian: 2.8%

Amerindian: 0%

Mediterranean: 19.6%

Middle Eastern: 1.2%

North Eurasian: 4.1%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 0%

East African: 0%

West Eurasian: 4.2%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 67.7%

SE4:

South Indian: 0%

Amerindian: 1%

Mediterranean: 12.6%

Middle Eastern: 2.3%

North Eurasian: 2.5%

West African: 0%

East Asian: 0.09%

East African: 0.1%

West Eurasian: 3.1%

North/Central/EastEuropean: 78%


Here is a European selection with all reference averages. Sorted by North European scores.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/6773/global1.gif

[Pallantides]

New K-12 run

.........................NO1,NO2, NO3, NO5.
North European: 68.5%,71.2%, 68.9%, 69.5%
South Indian: 0%, 0.05%, 0.04%, 0%
North Eurasian: 0%, 0.06%, 2% ,1.2%
Central American:1%, 1%, 0%, 0.9%
South American: 0%, 0%, 0.06%, 0%
East African: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0.03%
West African: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%
North African: 0.08%, 0% 0%, 0%
Oceanian: 1%, 0%, 0.02%, 0.04%
Mediterranean: 11%, 8.4%, 10.3%, 10.5%
West Eurasian: 16.3%, 17.2%, 16.5%, 16.3%
East Asian: 1.1%, 0.9%, 0.6%, 0.5%


I'm not sure what to make of this, my North Eurasian went from 1.6%(K-10) to 0.06% in this one, while some Portuguese fellow is 2% North Eurasian... also NO1's South Indian score went from 2.3% to 0%, it might be a glitch.:confused:

[Electronic God-Man]

K-12

Soten:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6283&d=1288120682

[Ibericus]

K-12

Soten:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6283&d=1288120682
Can you make a pie of the average of all Spaniards ?

[Aviane]

I can say so far that most of the clustlering sounds pretty fine.

Well I looking at such examples as North Russian with Lithuanian and Finnish or the French, The British Isles with Norwegian and even Belarus well not much suprises here.

[Ibericus]

I can say so far that most of the clustlering sounds pretty fine.

Well I looking at such examples as North Russian with Lithuanian and Finnish or the French, The British Isles with Norwegian and even Belarus well not much suprises here.
The french also cluster with the spaniard.

[Ibericus]

Spaniards average : 52 % Northern European / 31 % Med / 12 % West Eurasian

[Pallantides]

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg


NO1 who is west Norwegian is closer to the British and Central Europeans out of all the Norwegians, while the east Norwegians(NO2, NO3 and NO5) are dragging towards Lithuania and Finland




* edit: I only assume that NO3 and NO5 are from eastern Norway, since they are closer to me(NO2), NO1 is evon from FroumBiodiversity.

[Pallantides]

Intra-Eurasian MDS 1&2
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/9830/eurasia.png

my position:
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3528/45092669.png

[Curtis24]

Spaniards average : 52 % Northern European / 31 % Med / 12 % West Eurasian

How have these categories been created?

[Ibericus]

How have these categories been created?
1. With real DNA of people
2. Running SNP's with a special software for dna and admixture analysis

[Aviane]

Pallantides latest examples here on this thread look fine so far.

[Pallantides]

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6774/neura8.png

[Ibericus]

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8954/neura8j.png

[Mordid]

Are Pole usually cluster closer with Russian ?

[Pallantides]

*double post*

[Pallantides]

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8954/neura8j.png

I think I'm the Norwegian with the most "Fenno-Scandic" in this one.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/11/genetic-structure-of-north-eurasians.html

Genetic structure of North Eurasians (aka. Baltic Finns in a North Eurasian context)
Unravelling the genetic story of North Eurasia, a largely ignored part of the world by population geneticists, is the main reason I started my BGA project. That's because understanding the genetic substructures within this zone is pivotal to understanding the makeup of my own "Balto-Slavic" genome. I'm now happy to report that in the last few months I've collected enough samples, from Northwestern Europe to the Bering Strait, to be able to run at least some meaningful analyses on the subject, so here goes...

The comparison below is, as far as I know, the first time ever that a decent number of Baltic Finns, from all over Finland, have been publicly analyzed alongside samples from across North Eurasia using high-density genome-wide markers. What you're seeing is the output from a model-based algorithm called ADMIXTURE, with eight ancestral populations assumed (K=8), based on 320,000 SNPs (spreadsheet available here). And yes, I'm as surprised as anyone that it took this long to do it, and that it's me doing it.
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8954/neura8j.png
Now, before you get all worked up about the results, it's vital to understand that ADMIXTURE doesn't actually show admixture. It doesn't even show any ancestral components. All it does is tell us the chances of each of the samples in the comparison being mixed up for the others. It does this by working out the maximum likelihood of the samples sharing membership in clusters, with the number of clusters picked by the user (me, in this case). From this information it's possible to infer admixture. So yeah, it can be a bit fickle, arbitrary and "noisy", but it's still fairly useful, especially when the results are cross checked with those from other types of analyses, like MDS and IBD.

The most striking part about the plot above, for us Eruos anyway, is probably the so called Fenno-Scandic (cream colored) cluster. I tagged it "Fenno-Scandic" because it peaks in the Baltic Finnish samples, but the name isn't important. Interestingly, it shows up in hefty amounts all the way from the British Isles to the Volga-Ural region (note its presence in the Chuvash samples). But it drops like a rock as one moves towards Central Europe. So does this mean there was a Baltic Finnish invasion of Ireland on one hand, the Volga-Ural on the other? Nope, it doesn't.

That cluster is there because I clearly oversampled the Baltic Finns, letting the algorithm easily deduce their relatively unique characteristics, and in large part making them set the tone of the analysis for the other European samples. It's actually made up of several quite different ancestral components carried by Baltic Finns; Northwestern European, Northeastern European and Uralic. So if we go back to what ADMIXTURE really shows (ie. the probability of the samples being mixed up for one another) everything makes sense. Indeed, a recent analysis done by the Institute for Molecular Medicine Finland (FIMM) basically showed the same thing:


Genetically, Finns have more in common with, for example, the Dutch or Russians living in the area of Murom, to the east of Moscow, than with our linguistic relations, the Hungarians; genetic closeness clearly follows geographic distance more closely than linguistic distance.


Also, note how on my plot above some of the Finns come out very differently from their kinfolk, ie. less Finnish and more North/Central European. This too was picked up by the FIMM.


Owing to our settlement history, the genetic differences among Finns are great on both the east/west and north/south axes; the greater the geographic distance is, the greater the genetic differences are. In comparing the Finnish dialect areas, the greatest genetic differences are found between Finns of Southwest Finland and inhabitants of Kuusamo in Northeast Finland.

The linguistic link between Swedish-speaking Finns living in coastal areas and Swedes is also reflected in the greater genetic closeness of these two groups in comparison with Finnish speakers.


Like I say above, the large number of Baltic Finns makes it easy for the algorithm to come up with a Baltic Finnish specific cluster, so only some of them end up scoring clear North, Central and/or East Asian admixtures. The rest of their Eastern ancestry is contained within the Fenno-Scandic component. This shows in the Fst (genetic) distances between the eight clusters:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6529/neurafst.png
The Fenno-Scandic cluster is the European cluster closest to the Asian clusters. Also, check out the presence of what I call the "North Eurasian" cluster, which is about the same distance from Europe as it is from East Asia. This so called component peaks in the Selkup and Ket samples, and is marked blue on the above ADMIXTURE plot. It also shows up all over Northern Europe. So this might well be a sign of ancient genetic continuity across North Eurasia, at least to some degree anyway.

An MDS analysis of the same samples, using the same 320,000 markers, produces very similar results. The Baltic Finns stream towards North Eurasia from the North/Northwest European cluster, overlapping with the Russians and some of the North Russians (from Vologda Oblast, just east of Finland). At the same time, the Selkups and Ket position themselves roughly between the far Northeast Eurasians and Europeans. Indeed, you can see a hint of a stream flowing across the north, with the Europeans seemingly more attracted towards the lower left of the plot than to the upper left, where Turko-Mongols and East Asians proper reside.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6818/neura12.png

I've also run some preliminary intra-North Eurasian Identity by Descent (IBD) comparisons. I won't post any details because my methodology is still a bit unorthodox (ie. I'm using PLINK, which tends to overestimate IBD sharing when non-homogeneous sample sets are being compared). However, it's definitely worth a mention because it shows that, even at very low thresholds, Baltic Finns don't share IBD segments with Asians, while Selkups don't share any with Europeans (except one Selkup, who also shows European, possibly Russian, influence on the above ADMIXTURE plot). So it certainly seems, as far as I can tell, that the aforementioned Selkup "North Eurasian" cluster, phylogenetically about halfway between Northeast Asia and Europe, is pretty damn old. Similarly, the North/East Eurasian affinity of the Baltic Finns is also looking like an ancient phenomenon. On the other hand, I am seeing some hits between Anatolian Turks, Uzbeks, Uygurs, Hazara and Pathans. We'll see how that goes as I try different types of software and thresholds.
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1281/selkupman.jpg
Above is a Selkup man, courtesy of Wikipedia. He reminds me a bit of Charles Bronson, who was a Lithuanian Tatar by descent. But anyway, by posting his photo, I'm not suggesting that those who show around 1-2% membership in the Selkup "North Eurasian" cluster in the spreadsheet above, including many Northern Europeans, had an ancestor like this at some point in time. Perhaps, but there's no way to tell at the moment, because all we're looking at via the stats above is allele sharing and various probabilities stemming from it. It's all too easy to get the same results because of very different reasons, and in the end, it usually comes down to a best fit scenario based on the available resources (for example, reference samples).

[Pallantides]

Locating and visualizing minority non-European admixtures across our genomes (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2010/11/locating-and-visualizing-minority-non.html)

I only have a faint red one on chr 5.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7476/rhhmapperno2.png


From what I have seen most North Europeans get 3 to 7 red hits.

[Pallantides]

Europe 1&2
http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/1203/duelofthefates.png

[Pallantides]

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1144/eurogenesplot.jpg

[Breedingvariety]

Based on maps Lithuanians or Sardinians seem to be most European populations depending on how you look at it.

[Ibericus]

Based on maps Lithuanians or Sardinians seem to be most European populations depending on how you look at it.
The purest are the Basques, they are 99.9 Euro (n.euro+s.euro)

[Pallantides]

Labelled by Warwick over at ABF

Europe 1&2
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5092/europedec82010.png

Europe 1-2-3 (side view)
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8596/europesideviewlabeledde.png

[Pallantides]

West and Central Eurasia 1&2(labelled by Warwick at ABF)
http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/2927/westcentraleurasialabel.png

[Pallantides]

Intra-West Eurasian ADMIXTURE analysis for 23andMe users
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2010/12/intra-west-eurasian-admixture-analysis.html

Spreadsheet
http://cid-5223cc821fdfeb45.office.live.com/view.aspx/23%20West%20Eurasia.xlsx





Me(NO2)

Basque 0,055473
West-Northwest-Central European 0,66598
North African 0,00001
Northeast European 0,176283
Middle Eastern 0,00001
Mediterranean 0,102234
Anatolian 0,00001

* I wonder if there is an error here, that 3 Finns score 3-4 % North African seem rather strange.

[Electronic God-Man]

Me:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6531&d=1291930826

[Pallantides]

Could you make one for me also please.:D

[Electronic God-Man]

Could you make one for me also please.:D


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6534&d=1291948797

[Pallantides]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6534&d=1291948797

Thank you:thumb001:



Simple plot of Northeast European component:

FI 78.11
Komi 68.39
N. Russian 61.59
RU 49.45
LT 48.85
BY 44.73
PL 33.98
SE 22.62
HU 22.50
RO 19.31
NO 16.22
adygei 15.27
DE 14.59
TR 12.36
IR 9.14
Lezgin 8.68
AJ 6.96
UK 4.58
FR 4.02
GR 3.68
SY 3.58
PT 2.82
JO 1.51 <-possibly (<2% = noise)
KSA 1.33
EG 1.31
PSTN 1.20
IE 1.16
AM 1.00
ASY 0.99
Orcadian 0.90
Tuscan 0.85
ES 0.80
N.Italy 0.76
Mozabite 0.54
AZJ 0.53
SJ 0.39
CY 0.33
GEJ 0.30
IRJ 0.26
IQJ 0.06

EDIT:
I excluded the Armenian outliers from the Armenian group.
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7905/northeasteuro1282010.png


West-North Central European

Orcadian 74.58
IE 70.11
NO 64.86
UK 64.18
SE 58.21
DE 54.82
FR 47.74
LT 41.48
PL 40.70
HU 40.62
BY 35.43
ES 33.69
PT 31.32
N.Italy 31.22
Tuscan 26.23
Tuscan 26.23
N.Russian 23.64
GR 16.17
FI 13.22
adygei 11.79
AJ 8.78
SJ 8.54
IR 5.00
TR 4.72
AM 3.59
CY 2.76
SY 2.67
AZJ 1.27
LB 1.09
ASY 1.08
Mozabite 0.86
Bedouin 0.80
Sardinian 0.26
EG 0.05
IQJ 0.04

Armenian and Ashkenazi outliers excluded.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/454/westnorthcentraleuroped.png

[Pallantides]

error error

[Pallantides]

^evon made a mistake with the graphs, SE1 is not 4.1% in the Mideastern cluster and according to Davide he did a lot of other calculating mistakes... but I'm to lazy to look at the spreadsheet right now, so I just remove the graphs.

[Pallantides]

West and Central Eurasia 3D view
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2093/westcentraleurasia123.png

[Osweo]

To my eye, these charts seem to show something of a ring. The main connection between populations is the Europe - Middle East - South Asia - Far East one, with a more tenuous one linking the extremes of the circumpolar peoples.

Do we think that if we had complete samples for all ethnic groups, we'd 'fill in the gaps'? I played around on paint with one graph, trying to work out from geography and ethnohistory WHO would be in the gaps;
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/9273/eurasiacolshrink.png
The big red circle with a Ч in it is the Turkic speaking Chuvash on the middle Volga. Seems to me that we ought to stick the following in to tie them in better with the wider scheme; more Komi, Ob Ugrians (Mansi and Khanty), Nenets Samoyeds (to link the arctic continuum).
Gagauz, Crimean Tatars, Mordva, Kazan Tatars, Siberian Tatars (to link the central Europeans with the Turkics).
Nogai, Turkmen and Tajiks to get the southern Eurasian link.
And a big fat load of Tibetans to plug the gap in the south east. :p

Do we expect that there'll still be gaps?

Fascinating to see single ethnoses break down into cluster to demonstrate the plural origins that history often suspected... :thumbs

I'm wondering, though; why do the peoples roughly in the middle - Uygurs and Hazara - look so 'stretched'? Is this just a result of how the graph was made, or does it really reflect a greater diversity within their populations?

[Pallantides]

Here is an Excel file including all members. Outputted fields

1 Project member
2 Nationality for segment
3 Segment count, included all segments below 300 SNPs. Segment count corresponds average number of segments between the project member and all related individuals in each nationality.

I have done a minor fix after previous graphics.

http://www.4shared.com/document/3iocWqgf/HLO_segments_count.html

My result(NO2)

SE 6,71
NO 5,67
UK 5
HU 4,95
US 4,74
FR 4,39
North_Russia 4,36
PL 4,33
BY 4,11
ES 3,5
RU 3,43
PT 3,25
RO 3,07
DE 3
FI 3
IE 3
LT 2,9
Chuvash 2,82
GR 2,6
IT 2,56
Adygei 2,53
AJ 2,43
Selkup 1,89
Pathan 1,59
ASY 1,56
IR 1,53
TR 1,5
UZ 1,4
Uygur 1,2
Burusho 1,04
IN 1
Hazara 0,86
Altai 0,83
Yakagir 0,75
Nganassan 0,69
AA 0,69
ET 0,63
East Greenland 0,5
Tuva 0,5
Athabaks 0,47
Yakut 0,43
Buryat 0,42
Evenk 0,4
Orogen 0,33
West Greenland 0,33
Mongol 0,28
Daur 0,22
Dolgan 0,2
TU 0,2
Yoruba 0,19
CO 0,14
Pima 0,14
Xibo 0,14
Maya 0,11
She 0,1
Tujia 0,1
Han 0,09
Koryak 0,07
Bantu 0,06
JP 0,03

[poiuytrewq0987]

error error

4aMD4uy-QGc

[Pallantides]

Something interesting...

NO1 - FI 6
NO2 - FI 3
NO3 - FI 5,75
NO5 - FI 5


I'm from East Norway and supposedly have some Forest Finn ancestry from the 17th century, while NO1 is a West Norwegian.

[Electronic God-Man]

Can someone help me out with the new admixture analysis?


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7032&d=1297363026

I'm going to guess none of that is enough to indicate admixture? :confused:

[Franz]

Soten, that's the overall picture. Here are your details:

rs1029145 AFR
rs10492520 EAS
rs10514241 EAS
rs10779907 EAS
rs10825468 AFR
rs1105391 EAS
rs11060233 EAS
rs12089636 AFR
rs12217685 EAS
rs12220022 EAS
rs13232076 EAS
rs1334572 AFR
rs1364017 EAS
rs1463427 EAS
rs16839883 EAS
rs16883494 EAS
rs16903010 EAS
rs16903648 AFR
rs16920051 EAS
rs16934416 EAS
rs16957551 AFR
rs16957597 AFR
rs16957664 AFR
rs16988825 AFR
rs17011662 EAS
rs17013664 EAS
rs17013810 EAS
rs17014788 EAS
rs17015638 AFR
rs17044715 EAS
rs17067539 EAS
rs17078801 EAS
rs17087075 AFR
rs17087095 AFR
rs17251648 EAS
rs17599262 EAS
rs17748939 EAS
rs1858022 AFR
rs1892868 AFR
rs2069683 EAS
rs2073358 EAS
rs213135 EAS
rs2638298 AFR
rs264701 AFR
rs307274 EAS
rs3756514 EAS
rs3777456 EAS
rs3780660 EAS
rs3811842 EAS
rs3845461 EAS
rs3862609 EAS
rs401522 EAS
rs4939591 EAS
rs4987774 EAS
rs6499781 EAS
rs6812580 AFR
rs6928877 EAS
rs7190322 EAS
rs7201539 AFR
rs7271632 AFR
rs7275620 EAS
rs7290364 EAS
rs763880 EAS
rs7784129 EAS
rs877180 EAS
rs879017 EAS
rs9453955 AFR
rs951954 AFR
rs9556725 EAS
rs9812589 AFR
rs9912490 EAS

[Electronic God-Man]

Soten, that's the overall picture. Here are your details:

rs1029145 AFR
rs10492520 EAS
rs10514241 EAS
rs10779907 EAS
rs10825468 AFR
rs1105391 EAS
rs11060233 EAS
rs12089636 AFR
rs12217685 EAS
rs12220022 EAS
rs13232076 EAS
rs1334572 AFR
rs1364017 EAS
rs1463427 EAS
rs16839883 EAS
rs16883494 EAS
rs16903010 EAS
rs16903648 AFR
rs16920051 EAS
rs16934416 EAS
rs16957551 AFR
rs16957597 AFR
rs16957664 AFR
rs16988825 AFR
rs17011662 EAS
rs17013664 EAS
rs17013810 EAS
rs17014788 EAS
rs17015638 AFR
rs17044715 EAS
rs17067539 EAS
rs17078801 EAS
rs17087075 AFR
rs17087095 AFR
rs17251648 EAS
rs17599262 EAS
rs17748939 EAS
rs1858022 AFR
rs1892868 AFR
rs2069683 EAS
rs2073358 EAS
rs213135 EAS
rs2638298 AFR
rs264701 AFR
rs307274 EAS
rs3756514 EAS
rs3777456 EAS
rs3780660 EAS
rs3811842 EAS
rs3845461 EAS
rs3862609 EAS
rs401522 EAS
rs4939591 EAS
rs4987774 EAS
rs6499781 EAS
rs6812580 AFR
rs6928877 EAS
rs7190322 EAS
rs7201539 AFR
rs7271632 AFR
rs7275620 EAS
rs7290364 EAS
rs763880 EAS
rs7784129 EAS
rs877180 EAS
rs879017 EAS
rs9453955 AFR
rs951954 AFR
rs9556725 EAS
rs9812589 AFR
rs9912490 EAS

So, am I correct to think these are all the African and East Asian SNPs in my DNA? I take it that this is common for someone of European descent?

[Loddfafner]

I keep mixing up Eurogenes with Euripides and Eumenides.

[Franz]

So, am I correct to think these are all the African and East Asian SNPs in my DNA?

Your alleles in those SNPs are not all non-European. The tests aren't perfect.


I take it that this is common for someone of European descent?

Yes, you're White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people#History_of_the_term).

[Pallantides]

Mine
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7476/rhhmapperno2.png


NO2 rs10246773 EAS
NO2 rs10435558 EAS
NO2 rs10779907 EAS
NO2 rs10930447 EAS
NO2 rs11019225 EAS
NO2 rs11198878 EAS
NO2 rs11217777 EAS
NO2 rs11217806 EAS
NO2 rs11625139 EAS
NO2 rs12022173 EAS
NO2 rs12089636 AFR
NO2 rs12124367 EAS
NO2 rs12204742 EAS
NO2 rs12422574 EAS
NO2 rs12441054 EAS
NO2 rs1253852 EAS
NO2 rs12630840 EAS
NO2 rs13306541 EAS
NO2 rs1334572 AFR
NO2 rs1426744 EAS
NO2 rs16853096 EAS
NO2 rs16889813 EAS
NO2 rs16898668 EAS
NO2 rs16908616 EAS
NO2 rs16910134 EAS
NO2 rs16925720 EAS
NO2 rs16959714 EAS
NO2 rs17015638 AFR
NO2 rs17053336 EAS
NO2 rs17074656 EAS
NO2 rs17094678 EAS
NO2 rs17099839 EAS
NO2 rs17111316 EAS
NO2 rs17233815 EAS
NO2 rs17728511 EAS
NO2 rs1815896 EAS
NO2 rs1867569 EAS
NO2 rs1935420 EAS
NO2 rs2023935 EAS
NO2 rs2051943 EAS
NO2 rs2081767 EAS
NO2 rs2212015 AFR
NO2 rs2350243 EAS
NO2 rs250413 EAS
NO2 rs3760280 EAS
NO2 rs3796915 EAS
NO2 rs3816685 EAS
NO2 rs3948788 EAS
NO2 rs4726454 EAS
NO2 rs4822654 EAS
NO2 rs4936527 EAS
NO2 rs6980161 AFR
NO2 rs6987258 AFR
NO2 rs744459 EAS
NO2 rs7585649 EAS
NO2 rs7905349 AFR
NO2 rs991286 EAS

[Hulda.Kin]

I got H3 for the mito haplogroup and subclade and 100% +/- 0.01 European with ftdna Family Finder... DNA Tribes says I am top Thracian for the Europa 2nd is Belgic... then Portuguese, Celtic, Spanish, Norse.

Part D: Your High Resolution World Region Match Results
Aegean (0.24)
Finnic (0.19)
Eastern European (0.20)
Northwest European (0.24)
Mediterranean (0.25)

[Pallantides]

I got H3 for the mito haplogroup and subclade and 100% +/- 0.01 European with ftdna Family Finder... DNA Tribes says I am top Thracian for the Europa 2nd is Belgic... then Portuguese, Celtic, Spanish, Norse.

Part D: Your High Resolution World Region Match Results
Aegean (0.24)
Finnic (0.19)
Eastern European (0.20)
Northwest European (0.24)
Mediterranean (0.25)


eh what does that have to do with the Eurogenes Biogeographic Ancestry Project?


I find DNAtribes to be rather unreliable...

[Pallantides]

West Eurasia Close up
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/628/westeurasiacloseup.png



Location of Osweo, evon(West Norwegian) and myself on the West Eurasian map:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/853/locations.png

[Ibericus]

Dna-tribes is pure crap. It's amateurish pseudoscience. I don't understand how that company is not banned yet.

[Electronic God-Man]

Location of Osweo, evon(West Norwegian) and myself on the West Eurasian map:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/853/locations.png

I'm US2 which is just under Osweo blocked by the green circle on this map.

[Osweo]

I'm US2 which is just under Osweo blocked by the green circle on this map.

Aye, and we were puzzling about the one overlapping you...

SV1

Slovene, we wondered.... NO!


SI Slovenia
SK Slovakia
SL Sierra Leone
SM San Marino
SN Senegal
SR Suriname
SU U.S.S.R.
SV El Salvador
El Salvador wtf! :bowlol:

What is going ON there?

[Pallantides]

I believe he is Solvenian ...

[Electronic God-Man]

Even if he is Slovene that is still rather odd.

[Graham]

West Eurasia Close up
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/628/westeurasiacloseup.png



Location of Osweo, evon(West Norwegian) and myself on the West Eurasian map:
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/853/locations.png
That took ages to load for me. I'm left of that picture Uk19 :)

[Hulda.Kin]

Thanks for letting me know about dna tribes, I wondered about it with some of their results for me. What is the link for these other results you are talking about as i would like to have accurate ones done. Do they test females as well?

[Osweo]

Thanks for letting me know about dna tribes, I wondered about it with some of their results for me. What is the link for these other results you are talking about as i would like to have accurate ones done. Do they test females as well?

https://www.23andme.com/

They certainly do test women, as unlike some competitors, the gender specific stuff is treated as but a tiny part of the entire genome. They also give the option to take your 'raw data' and download it, with the option to send it to other investigators, like in this private (and free!) project whose results we're discussing in this thread. :)

They also give interesting health information too. I'm in it more for the ancestry aspect, but 23 and Me give a product that keeps on informing, not just a one off set of results.

:D The buggers should give me commission!

[Pallantides]

My top population results

SE1 0,2397
Kate_Morley 0,2401 Reference Population
US49 0,2402
US173 0,2402
BY 0,2403 Reference Population
LT 0,2406 Reference Population
North_Russian 0,2407 Reference Population
IE3 0,2407
NO5 0,2408
IE8 0,2408
UK3 0,2408
SE6 0,2409
US88 0,2409
North_Russian 0,2409 Reference Population
North_Russian 0,2410 Reference Population
US115 0,2410
DKUK1 0,2410
US65 0,2410
LT 0,2411 Reference Population


These were given to me by annihilus on ABF, since I couldn't get it to work myself, so I hope they are the right numbers.

[Graham]

My top sharing without the Americans etc..


UK3 0.2375 FluffyDad English/Welsh and distant German/Italian
UK1 0.2387 GregRM
IE3 0.2391 Maureen Higgins Markov (Irish)
BY 0.2393 Reference Population
North_Russian 0.2397 Reference Population
French_Basque 0.2397 Reference Population
FR 0.2399 Reference Population
FR 0.2400 Reference Population
Orcadian 0.2400 Reference Population
FR 0.2400 Reference Population
French_Basque 0.2401 Reference Population
FR 0.2401 Reference Population
UK8 0.2401 LKPRSB_Dad (100% UK born in Yorkshire one Grandfather was part Irish)
BE2 0.2402 Not identified
DESK1 0.2402 (50% German, 50% Slovakian)
UA1 0.2402 Not identified
PL5 0.2403 Not identified
PL1 0.2403 Project Creator and DataMiner DavidW alias Davidski//Polako
BY 0.2403 Reference Population
HU 0.2403 Reference Population
IENO1 0.2404 KatieC (Irish)

...And eyeryone, anyone here on that list?

UK3 0.2375 FluffyDad English/Welsh and distant German/Italian
US56 0.2381 Not identified
Jeff_Barrett 0.2384 Reference Population
UK1 0.2387 GregRM
US115 0.2390 Not identified
IE3 0.2391 Maureen Higgins Markov (Irish)
US74 0.2392 Bahmah (Amyjeanne’s mom- French, German, Dutch, Swiss)
BY 0.2393 Reference Population
US140 0.2394 Not identified
Caroline_Wright 0.2394 Reference Population
US104 0.2395 Not identified
NZ1 0.2395 Dennis W (57.8% English 25% Irish 15.6% Scottish 1.6% Asian Indian)
US78 0.2397 (Colonial American with English, German and small amount of Irish)
North_Russian 0.2397 Reference Population
French_Basque 0.2397 Reference Population
US75 0.2399 Lynleigh (Mostly Colonial American - 45% English, 30% Scotch-Irish, 20% German-Swiss)
US10 0.2399 Jerseygirl Irish, Dutch, French, Orcadian, Swiss, German, English, Polish
FR 0.2399 Reference Population
US57 0.2399 Little bit (Irish, German, English, unk paternal)
FR 0.2400 Reference Population
Orcadian 0.2400 Reference Population
US145 0.2400 Not identified
US32 0.2400 enfla1
FR 0.2400 Reference Population
UK4 0.2401 BrummieMummy English and distant Flemish/French
US156 0.2401 Not identified
French_Basque 0.2401 Reference Population
FR 0.2401 Reference Population
CA4 0.2401 David Faux. Colonial American / Canadian (1/16 German, 1/16 English, < 1% Six Nations Lower Mohawk, < 1% African), rest British (1/16 Scottish, 1/16 Irish, rest almost entirely east coastal English).
US166 0.2401 Not identified
UK8 0.2401 LKPRSB_Dad (100% UK born in Yorkshire one Grandfather was part Irish)
US110 0.2401 Charlie
BE2 0.2402 Not identified
AU3 0.2402 Not identified
AU4 0.2402 Not identified
US128 0.2402 Not identified
DESK1 0.2402 (50% German, 50% Slovakian)
UA1 0.2402 Not identified
US5 0.2403 Rochefaton paternal central France, maternal England
PL5 0.2403 Not identified
CA6 0.2403 Not identified
PL1 0.2403 Project Creator and DataMiner DavidW alias Davidski//Polako
US63 0.2403 BrianNC
BY 0.2403 Reference Population
HU 0.2403 Reference Population
SE7 0.2404 Not identified
Orcadian 0.2404 Reference Population
HU 0.2404 Reference Population
IENO1 0.2404 KatieC (Irish)

[Pallantides]

IE3's surname 'Markov' sounds Slavic.

[Osweo]

IE3's surname 'Markov' sounds Slavic.

Maureen Higgins can be quite Irish. Maureen Higgins Markov must have married some Russky. ;)

[Pallantides]

Maureen Higgins can be quite Irish. Maureen Higgins Markov must have married some Russky. ;)
I thought she could have had a Russian father or something, but this makes more sense yes.

[Graham]

Ave. Distance from Populations, copied the average reference populations top 10 :) It'd look more accurate with Norway, Iralnd etc.. but Im too lazy to sort that out :)
me Uk19


FR 0.24162
Orcadian 0.24170
BY 0.24180
HU 0.24188
LT 0.24228
French_Basque 0.24230
ES 0.24272
North_Russian 0.24306
North_Italian 0.24311
Tuscan 0.24318


Osweo UK20


Orcadian 0.24176
FR 0.24228
LT 0.24232
HU 0.24282
BY 0.24293
ES 0.24323
French_Basque 0.24338
North_Russian 0.24356
North_Italian 0.24398
Tuscan 0.24432


NO2 Pallantides

LT 0.24235
BY 0.24294
Orcadian 0.24309
FR 0.24315
HU 0.24322
North_Russian 0.24351
North_Italian 0.24428
French_Basque 0.24440
ES 0.24465
RO 0.24496


Osweo if you haven't seen your top matches

UK20 0.0000
US78 0.2382
US92 0.2388
US131 0.2389
Caroline_Wright 0.2392
FR 0.2394
IENO1 0.2396
FR 0.2396
UK9 0.2399
NL1 0.2399
US37 0.2400
BY 0.2400
CA4 0.2400
US74 0.2402
US115 0.2402
UA1 0.2402
US75 0.2403
Orcadian 0.2404
Orcadian 0.2404
Kate_Morley 0.2404
US26 0.2405
FR1 0.2405
US67 0.2406
UK19 0.2406
IE8 0.2406
FR 0.2406
US32 0.2406
LT 0.2406
DEIE1 0.2407
NO1 0.2407

[Pallantides]

Thanks, what is our distance to the Siberians, Greenlanders and Middle Easterne populations?

[Pallantides]

http://i54.tinypic.com/3305hc9.png

my position:
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/4612/3305hc9.jpg

[Franz]

My top population results

SE1 0,2397
Kate_Morley 0,2401 Reference Population
US49 0,2402
US173 0,2402
BY 0,2403 Reference Population
LT 0,2406 Reference Population
North_Russian 0,2407 Reference Population
IE3 0,2407
NO5 0,2408
IE8 0,2408
UK3 0,2408
SE6 0,2409
US88 0,2409
North_Russian 0,2409 Reference Population
North_Russian 0,2410 Reference Population
US115 0,2410
DKUK1 0,2410
US65 0,2410
LT 0,2411 Reference Population


These were given to me by annihilus on ABF, since I couldn't get it to work myself, so I hope they are the right numbers.

That's correct, but why not do them all?


Maureen Higgins can be quite Irish. Maureen Higgins Markov must have married some Russky. ;)

Yeah, her result is very Irish nothing Slavic about her.

[Pallantides]

Thanks for the list Franz.

[quotablepatella]

My top matches -

UK9 0
NO5 0.239761
UK20 0.239884
US26 0.239942
US72 0.240053
BY 0.240066
UK1 0.240293
PL1 0.240363
US61 0.24046
Kate_Morley 0.240488
US74 0.240505
US88 0.240508
US55 0.240513
Orcadian 0.240548
US78 0.240624
IENO1 0.240633
French_Basque 0.240657
US83 0.240665
US15 0.2407
FR 0.240714
FR2 0.240729
FCA3 0.240735
ES 0.240741
US153 0.240752
US131 0.24078
Orcadian 0.2408
UK3 0.2408
BY 0.240822
US165 0.240841
Jeff_Barrett 0.240905

[Loki]

Splitting the genome in half to confirm minor exotic local admixture (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/02/splitting-genome-in-half-to-confirm.html)

This is Polako's latest release. I'm not yet sure how to make sense of it, its not as clearly demarcated as the previous one. But there are obvious clusters.

From what I understand, one can appear more than once on this one. It's tricky to find yourself, though. I've managed to find (one of?) mine - b_SAEU1. I've also seen Osweo (I think) - a_UK20. I'm to the right of the top right cluster. Osweo more to the left of me.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2747/mds24.png

[quotablepatella]

I found my a near b_US193 and b_CH3 in the top left hand corner, and my b in a very crowded area near a_EESE1, b_UK8, b_RU6, b_FSE1, a_US111, a_US131 et al.

[Osweo]

Can somebody suggest that Polako includes a COORDINATES system, so we can bloody find ourselves?! Can't be THAT hard. MSPaint give the exact pixel, for instance, when you drag the cursor across an image... :rage :p

[Electronic God-Man]

I still can't find myself (US2). There's gotta be an easier way to do this. I assume I'm lost in some clusterfuck.

[Graham]

Where the fuck is Wally? That's what it's like
http://www.gearthblog.com/images/images1108/Whereswallylogo.jpg

UK19's near IE4, UZGSM538782, IRGSM536764 etc.. etc.. etc..

[Aino]

Can somebody suggest that Polako includes a COORDINATES system, so we can bloody find ourselves?! Can't be THAT hard. MSPaint give the exact pixel, for instance, when you drag the cursor across an image... :rage :p

Your coordinates are in the .dat files. You can open the files with a regular text editor. Or import them to Excel if you want to process the numbers further.

[Loki]

Your coordinates are in the .dat files. You can open the files with a regular text editor. Or import them to Excel if you want to process the numbers further.

Where are the dat files to be found? I see he attached a text file with the samples that were run, but that doesn't tell me much. Only have 0 0 0 -9 behind them. :confused:

[Loki]

Where are the dat files to be found? I see he attached a text file with the samples that were run, but that doesn't tell me much. Only have 0 0 0 -9 behind them. :confused:

Oh, I see it is the various MDS files. To be opened with a text editor. There seems to be 38 of them though ... :eek:

[Osweo]

Your coordinates are in the .dat files. You can open the files with a regular text editor. Or import them to Excel if you want to process the numbers further.

I'm far too stupid and old to figure that sort of thing out, though. :cry2

And bastard Excel and stuff don't seem to be given away free any more with new laptops like mine. :rage The computer doesn't even show what sort of application I should be opening these files with, damned thing. I hate this new Windows 7 too.............. :censored: :p

[Franz]

ADMIXTURE v1.1 runs at K=5
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdE82UEpFU0dxQ3ZzR1RzSlRXeEhZa Hc&hl=en&authkey=CJ36mZoN

[Pallantides]

NO1

Basque 6%
Mediterranean 4%
Southeast European 2%
Baltic Finnish 14%
North Euro 75%


NO2(Me)

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 19%
North Euro 80%


NO3

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 12%
North Euro 86%


NO5

Basque 4%
Mediterranean 3%
Southeast European 5%
Baltic Finnish 18%
North Euro 71%


NO6

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 9%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 11%
North Euro 80%


NO7

Basque 10%
Mediterranean 0%
Southeast European 2%
Baltic Finnish 14%
North Euro 75%

[Pallantides]

Craniometric study: Neolithic migrants did not penetrate Northern and Eastern Europe (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/02/craniometric-study-neolithic-migrants.html)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2093/westcentraleurasia123.png

[Loki]

Me:

Basque 4%
Mediterranean 11%
Southeast European 16%
Baltic Finnish 6%
North Euro 63%


Osweo:

Basque 11%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 0%
North Euro 86%

^^ Mr Nazi poster boy! :eek:

[Agrippa]

Craniometric study: Neolithic migrants did not penetrate Northern and Eastern Europe (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/02/craniometric-study-neolithic-migrants.html)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2093/westcentraleurasia123.png

In the link they also wrote:

It's important to realize, however, that this analysis does not cover in detail the late Neolithic and subsequent periods, when the modern European gene pool actually formed.

Compare with the comments of Dienekes:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/02/human-migration-and-cultural-change-in.html

The real result is the mosaic pattern in the fringes, meaning just a higher rate of survival for the pre-Neolithic elements from the start.

Yet if comparing f.e. later Corded waves with those transitional cultures of the North, which were actually not fully Neolithic (!) - in the North f.e. the full and final Neolithic stage was often just reached with the Corded Ware wave, things should be different.

Actually this study proves the tremendous impact of the Neolithic settlers, even at the fringes with the mosaic model, but a higher survival race and transition from less altered Mesolithic populations there as well.

[Aino]

Nothing new or surprising for me. I am predominantly Baltic Finnish.

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 93%
North Euro 6%

[Don Brick]

I´m such a mutt in comparison to Aino and most other Finns. :p :D

Here´s me:

Baltic Finnish 49 %
North Euro 38 %
Basque 6 %
Mediterranean 4 %
Southeast Euro 3 %

[Pallantides]

Polako made this comment on another froum:

Finns are the most North European group in the series, along with Lithuanians. They often score 100% in the Baltic Finnish cluster.

BTW, the North European cluster need not come from North Europe, but might be ancestral to North Europeans.

Craniometric study: Neolithic migrants did not penetrate Northern and Eastern Europe (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/02/craniometric-study-neolithic-migrants.html)

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1088/cranial.png

[Don Brick]

edit edit edit

ignore

[Agrippa]

Polako made this comment on another froum:

He should rather speak of a Northern Mesolithic or North Eastern European component, since Northern European implies relations to the modern Northern Europeans, but these are both less Mesolithic and less Northern Eurasian than Finns, so this is a misnomer, which makes no sense at all.

The only sense it makes is to make this component look "more Northern European than actual Northern Europeans" (and with "actual Northern Europeans" I mean Northern Europeans since thousands of years already), which is an oxymoron.

[Pallantides]

According to the spreadsheet Lithuanians and Belarusians have the highest 'North Euro' score, while Finns have the highest 'Baltic Finnish' score.

[Agrippa]

According to the spreadsheet Lithuanians and Belarusians have the highest 'North Euro' score, while Finns have the highest 'Baltic Finnish' score.

Well, this doesn't wonder neither, since in Finns you have to substract a stronger Northern Eurasian component and Lit-Bela have less Neolithic influences. This was obvious from the archaeological record already, but in all those cases I wonder where the samples were taken from and whether future results will present us new differentiations, which I would always expect in Lithuania simply from West to East, in Belarussia more complex, but f.e. also along the rivers vs. "the less accessible and favourable woodlands".

Additionally, I wouldn't wonder about this "Northern component" being split up in the future, with more data available, because the Neolithic expansion happened to a large part from inside of the older spectrum, yet there was a differentiation present if comparing f.e. the Eastbaltic area with that of Southern Russia and the Ukraine.

I guess there might be something to find here too, further distinguishing the "real North Eastern Mesolithic" from those elements which were related, but expanded from the South in the Neolithic and Metal Age eras.

If this is recognisable in the archaeological record, why not in the genes? So far most of the time, if the archaeological record and typological analysis showed something clearly, the better the genetic tests were, the more they showed of this...

[Osweo]

Osweo:

Basque 11%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 0%
North Euro 86%

^^ Mr Nazi poster boy! :eek:

Thanks, Untermensch! :)

What did I say the other day, eh? Ah;


By the way, though, my home county has far better Nordic sculpted reliefs from the Volsungasaga than anywhere in Scandinavia. Amounderness, Lund and Thingwall. Don't get more Nordic than that! :wink
....Vindicated. :strokebeard:

[Pallantides]

NO1

Basque 6%
Mediterranean 4%
Southeast European 2%
Baltic Finnish 14%
North Euro 75%


NO2(Me)

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 19%
North Euro 80%


NO3

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 12%
North Euro 86%


NO5

Basque 4%
Mediterranean 3%
Southeast European 5%
Baltic Finnish 18%
North Euro 71%


NO6

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 9%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 11%
North Euro 80%


NO7

Basque 10%
Mediterranean 0%
Southeast European 2%
Baltic Finnish 14%
North Euro 75%


The Swedes

SE1

Basque 1%
Mediterranean 9%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 12%
North Euro 77%


SE2

Basque 4%
Mediterranean 5%
Southeast European 3%
Baltic Finnish 17%
North Euro 71%


SE4

Basque 1%
Mediterranean 4%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 16%
North Euro 79%


SE5

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 6%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 19%
North Euro 75%


SE6

Basque 2%
Mediterranean 10%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 9%
North Euro 79%


SE7

Basque 7%
Mediterranean 0%
Southeast European 6%
Baltic Finnish 21%
North Euro 65%


SE8

Basque 7%
Mediterranean 0%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 19%
North Euro 73%


*SE6 who have the lowest 'Baltic Finnish' score is Scanian.

[Äike]

According to the spreadsheet Lithuanians and Belarusians have the highest 'North Euro' score, while Finns have the highest 'Baltic Finnish' score.

Aren't Baltic-Finnish people the most Northern-European group of Europeans? As I see it, it's just a subgroup of Northern-Europeans in this research.

I'll post the results of 2 Estonians.

EE1

Basque 0%
Mediterranean 0%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 26%
North Euro 74%

EE2 (Me)

Basque 2%
Mediterranean 2%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 28%
North Euro 68%

I am wondering about the Basque and Mediterranean components, maybe it is caused by the distant Estonian-Swede ancestry, there was even a discussion on Biodiversity that Swedes have more "Southern-European" genes. Most Swedes on Europe_k=5 have "high"(when compared to the 2 Estonians) Basque or Mediterranean scores.

EDIT: Here's also "EESE1", I think that person is half-Estonian and half-Swedish:

EESE1

Basque 3%
Mediterranean 3%
Southeast European 0%
Baltic Finnish 29%
North Euro 66%

[Don Brick]

^Estonians seem to score quite low Baltic Finnish percentages, not much more than Scandinavians actually. And compare this to my 49 % score which is probably already unusually low for a Finn. Could this be more evidence that Estonians are in many ways genetically closer to Latvians and Lithuanians? Here´s an interesting take on the subject.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/02/estonians-are-not-like-finns/

[Äike]

^Estonians seem to score quite low Baltic Finnish percentages, not much more than Scandinavians actually. And compare this to my 49 % score which is probably already unusually low for a Finn. Could this be more evidence that Estonians are in many ways genetically closer to Latvians and Lithuanians? Here´s an interesting take on the subject.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/02/estonians-are-not-like-finns/

Genetic drift has caused the Finns to be distant to everyone, while the Finnic people in Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and NW-Russia haven't had that bottleneck effect. It is very logical that Estonians are more similar to Finnic people living next to them, than to Finnic people across the gulf. Livonians were culturally, linguistically and genetically the most similar Finnic group to the Estonians. I am certain that you cannot find any Latvian who wouldn't have several Livonian ancestors if you back in time.

6000 years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_Ceramic_culture), the territories of modern Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were completely Finnic.

There are 2 Baltic-Finnish groups, a northern one and a southern one. The southern one mostly is assimilated into the Baltic populations, except the Estonians who still exist. I am guessing that the genetic base for the Baltic-Finnish people was taken from the northern group of Baltic-Finnish people and I am guessing that they were all Finns too.

EDIT: I did read your article and looks like the writer of it agrees with me.


Finally, I would like to introduce one alternative model which I find plausible. Before the rise of the Indo-European language group the center of gravity of the Finnic languages was almost certainly much further to the south and east, and that Finland itself was on the perimeter. By this model the Indo-Europeanization of most Finnic speaking peoples left the Estonians as a rump. The Finns to the north of the Gulf of Finland were already then distinct from the Estonians and other southerly peoples before this process occurred. The reason I present this model is that there is evidence that Russification up to the present day has come at the expense of the Finnic language groups.

Finns are perimeter Baltic-Finnish people, while Estonians aren't perimeter Baltic-Finnish people, just all the Finnics south and east of us got assimilated.

[Pallantides]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/02/few-quick-runs-with-new-admixture-11.html


However, as always, caveats apply. For instance, if there's an ancestral group missing, ADMIXTURE will, in a way, find the next best thing. This might be why some of the Americans with Native admixture scored higher than expected Finnish scores in the European run. At first glance this might seem a bit odd, but it actually makes sense, because an American of North European extraction with a few per cent of Amerindian ancestry will come out fairly similar to a Finn with some North Eurasian admixture.

[Äike]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/02/few-quick-runs-with-new-admixture-11.html

I see that Baltic-Finnish = Finnish.

Just because most of the Baltic-Finnish people south and east of them have been assimilated, doesn't make them the most similar group to the original/central Baltic-Finnish people, as Don Draper's article pointed out. Finns are peripheral Baltic-Finnish people, when compared to the now assimilated Baltic-Finnish people.

[Agrippa]

Modern Thai are, as a completely different example, also less representative of the old Tai people which lived further North, so some Southern Chinese are "more typically Tai" than modern Thai people.

So while I'm not saying this is for sure the case here, it remains a possibility.

But probably the Finnish people in the Baltic area just got more Indo-European influence and less of the Northern Eurasian one in comparison, but are not more typically Finnish neither.

[Äike]

Modern Thai are, as a completely different example, also less representative of the old Tai people which lived further North, so some Southern Chinese are "more typically Tai" than modern Thai people.

So while I'm not saying this is for sure the case here, it remains a possibility.

But probably the Finnish people in the Baltic area just got more Indo-European influence and less of the Northern Eurasian one in comparison, but are not more typically Finnish neither.

Agrippa, you have proved on numerous occasions that you practically do not know a thing about North-Eastern Europe, one good example is that you recently found out that the Saami are actually European. All your hypothesizes about this region are mostly wrong. If I were you, I would want to keep that "intelligent poster" image you have and not post about matters in which you are strongly lacking.

If the foreign Indo-European immigrants wouldn't have migrated to Northern-Europe, then the Baltic-Finnish "core" area would be somewhere south-east of Finland, I guess. If those now non-existent(assimilated) Baltic-Finnish people would have been the base of the Baltic-Finnish sample in Polako's project, then Americans with Amerindian ancestry wouldn't have high scores in certain areas. Out of all the Baltic-Finnish populations, the Finns are the only ones who have had to push the Saami population northwards, while assimilating them too and we all know that the originally completely European Saamis have some minor Siberian/Samoyed influence which then transferred to other populations.

[Agrippa]

Agrippa, you have proved on numerous occasions that you practically do not know a thing about North-Eastern Europe, one good example is that you recently found out that the Saami are actually European. All your hypothesizes about this region are mostly wrong. If I were you, I would want to keep that "intelligent poster" image you have and not post about matters in which you are strongly lacking.

First of all, I always said that the modern Sami are mixed, yet the Lappid type as such is racially more borderline. Since this is an important part of the racial make up of this people they are in that sense less European than lets say Swedes, Germans, Poles, Spaniards etc., that's what I said.


If the foreign Indo-European immigrants wouldn't have migrated to Northern-Europe, then the Baltic-Finnish "core" area would be somewhere south-east of Finland, I guess. If those now non-existent(assimilated) Baltic-Finnish people would have been the base of the Baltic-Finnish sample in Polako's project, then Americans with Amerindian ancestry wouldn't have high scores in certain areas. Out of all the Baltic-Finnish populations, the Finns are the only ones who have had to push the Saami population northwards, while assimilating them too and we all know that the originally completely European Saamis have some minor Siberian/Samoyed influence which then transferred to other populations.

I wasn't even saying that this is no option, I just said that there are more options than that, so I don't get the point of your attitude to attack me out of nothing.

You just can't prove it for sure by now, or can you?

[Loki]

Could North Euro be further divided into West and East?

[Grumpy Cat]

I am in Polako's next run, will post results.

I will be surprised if I do not get a high Basque percentage.

[Franz]

It isn’t necessarily real admixture but allele patterns. I looked at the data with software, and I see odd things like one of the Portuguese samples (PT4) showing 7% Finnish. It's probably not Finnish but something else or by chance. That’s only one sample though.

The Basque cluster peaks to 100% in the French Basque. It’s high in the Spanish, Portuguese, and some French. The Mediterranean cluster peaks to 100% in the Sardinians. It’s second highest in the Italians. The Southeast European cluster appears highest in the Turks and Jews but not in the Southeast Europeans, so that’s a bad name for it. It’s 59% in the one Georgian sample. The Baltic/Finn cluster peaks to 100% in the Finns but not the Balts. North Russians and Estonians are the next highest. The North European cluster is highest in the Lithuanians with Belorussians coming second. Then, it becomes sporadic among other elasticities.

The Baltic/Finn cluster should be changed to Finnish. The Mediterranean cluster should have a more meaningful name, but it’s only a name. The Southeastern European cluster makes no sense. It’s not clear at all what this cluster means like the others, or what he did. It’s 0 in the Finns, Estonians, Basque, Sardinians, Lithuanians, and a few of the Scandinavians. He included only one Georgian and no Armenians. It would’ve been interesting to see West Asians, but the run appears to be more European oriented. Some of the samples didn’t add to 100% or 1. I’ve sorted the data, and the range is between 98-102%. For example, PL1 sums to 1.02 and CA5 sums to 0.98. I would like to see more clusters. Dienekes will be doing 64 clusters. With more clusters, we would be able to notice more differences among the samples. Polako does have an agenda though.


Osweo:

Basque 11%
Mediterranean 1%
Southeast European 1%
Baltic Finnish 0%
North Euro 86%

^^ Mr Nazi poster boy! :eek:
... but Osweo is so swarthy.


In the link they also wrote:

Compare with the comments of Dienekes:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/02/human-migration-and-cultural-change-in.html

The real result is the mosaic pattern in the fringes, meaning just a higher rate of survival for the pre-Neolithic elements from the start.

Actually this study proves the tremendous impact of the Neolithic settlers, even at the fringes with the mosaic model, but a higher survival race and transition from less altered Mesolithic populations there as well.

People always confuse Neolithic and Mesolithic. The craniometrical evidence of West Asian origin for Central Europeans is interesting but not surprising as they genetically show it. The study showed what they measured, but they didn’t show the actual cranial measurements I was really hoping to see. Facial measurements would be interesting, and agriculture would’ve surely altered the face and jaw. The hunter-gatherers that adapted agriculture through cultural diffusion probably experienced physical changes, but surely not in the same way as the ones with actual genetic input from the farmers.


I´m such a mutt in comparison to Aino and most other Finns. :p :D

Here´s me:

Baltic Finnish 49 %
North Euro 38 %
Basque 6 %
Mediterranean 4 %
Southeast Euro 3 %

If you (FI6) are Southwestern Finnish, then it's really not unexpected.

One Finn is 7% Finnish, then the rest range from 35% to 100%. That one sample with 7% is also 28% Southeastern European which is way too high compared to the others, so I don’t think he or she is entirely Finnish. Maybe Polako made a mistake? It’s not from someone that submitted his/her raw data to him but from a dataset.


According to the spreadsheet Lithuanians and Belarusians have the highest 'North Euro' score, while Finns have the highest 'Baltic Finnish' score.

The Belarusians range from 74% to 89% with an average of 80.2… with n=9. The Lithuanians range from 81% to 95% with an average of 89.3 with n=10. What happened to NO4? Some Germans are missing. Maybe they requested withdrawal?


Well, this doesn't wonder neither, since in Finns you have to substract a stronger Northern Eurasian component and Lit-Bela have less Neolithic influences. This was obvious from the archaeological record already, but in all those cases I wonder where the samples were taken from and whether future results will present us new differentiations, which I would always expect in Lithuania simply from West to East, in Belarussia more complex, but f.e. also along the rivers vs. "the less accessible and favourable woodlands".

Additionally, I wouldn't wonder about this "Northern component" being split up in the future, with more data available, because the Neolithic expansion happened to a large part from inside of the older spectrum, yet there was a differentiation present if comparing f.e. the Eastbaltic area with that of Southern Russia and the Ukraine.

I guess there might be something to find here too, further distinguishing the "real North Eastern Mesolithic" from those elements which were related, but expanded from the South in the Neolithic and Metal Age eras.

If this is recognisable in the archaeological record, why not in the genes? So far most of the time, if the archaeological record and typological analysis showed something clearly, the better the genetic tests were, the more they showed of this...

With more clusters, it should be more apparent. From “Migration waves to the Baltic Sea region” by T. Lappalainen et al. (2008), 43.9% of the 164 Lithuanians had (M46/Tat, P105). I tend to think of those mutations as Northeastern, but that’s only Y-DNA.

The 10 Lithuanians and 9 Belorussians were from “Genome Wide Structure of the Jewish People” by D. M. Behar et al. (2010, July 8). He included all them for the run. The Belorussians experienced more gene flow and were less isolated than the Lithuanians. It does depend on where the samples were taken. The Russians in that study came from Li et al. (2009). They were all from Vologda Oblast, and they had North Asian admixture and not representative of Russians in other areas. Polako labeled those 25 as North_Russian.

[Pallantides]

A Saami with a Nordid phenotype will still have a higher Northeast Asian affinity than a Norwegian with a Lappid phenotype.


What happened to NO4? Some Germans are missing. Maybe they requested withdrawal?


NO4 was NO1's uncle so he was removed.

[Äike]

I find it extremely intriguing that Polako decided to take the Lithuanians as a sample population for "Northern-European". Knowing his theories about the history of European populations, I shouldn't be surprised.

This is one of the reasons why I do not trust these "one-man" genetic researches.

I'll bring an example how this can influence people: Loki told me that Lithuanians and Belorussians are the most Northern-European Europeans.

Now if I made a genetic research and started collecting 23andme raw data, I could take the Scanian(southern-Swedish) population as my Northern-European sample population and then I could claim that Scanians are the most Northern-European Europeans, followed by Danes and Swedes.

Some people take these "one-man" genetic researches very seriously, which I find funny.

[Franz]

A Saami with a Nordid phenotype will still have a higher Northeast Asian affinity than a Norwegian with a Lappid phenotype.

True, the Saami will likely have higher Asian affinity. As for phenotype, that depends on the classifier which is highly subjective. Whether you like it or not, genetics does reflect phenotype. For example, eye shape is genetically inherited.


I find it extremely intriguing that Polako decided to take the Lithuanians as a sample population for "Northern-European". Knowing his theories about the history of European populations, I shouldn't be surprised.

This is one of the reasons why I do not trust these "one-man" genetic researches.

I'll bring an example how this can influence people: Loki told me that Lithuanians and Belorussians are the most Northern-European Europeans.

Now if I made a genetic research and started collecting 23andme raw data, I could take the Scanian(southern-Swedish) population as my Northern-European sample population and then I could claim that Scanians are the most Northern-European Europeans, followed by Danes and Swedes.

Some people take these "one-man" genetic researches very seriously, which I find funny.

Sure, it has its quirks, and it's not perfect. It's still useful and showing patterns that make sense. On the Dodecad project, I don't know all the IDs. From what I observed, many Finns and Russians are showing the highest Northern European component. I noticed a strong correlation with those with the most North European having Northeast Asian and even East Asian. The Estonians scored very high and a few Norwegians and Swedes.

[Aino]

I find it extremely intriguing that Polako decided to take the Lithuanians as a sample population for "Northern-European". Knowing his theories about the history of European populations, I shouldn't be surprised.


Did he? I have used STRUCTURE, and the way it works is that the software finds the clusters all by itself. That is, you don't predefine any population as 'Northern European'. The clusters that the software finds are just given descriptive names afterwards based on the samples that score highest in the category.

My understanding is that ADMIXTURE works similarly. Polako did mention that the new version of ADMIXTURE allows supervised runs, which means that some samples are classified before the run. He didn't say he used that option, and I see no reason why he would have done that.

[Pallantides]

True, the Saami will likely have higher Asian affinity. As for phenotype, that depends on the classifier which is highly subjective. Whether you like it or not, genetics does reflect phenotype. For example, eye shape is genetically inherited.


Where did I inherit my eye shape from?




As you know already I'm NO2 and DOD197 on Dienekes, so you have probably had a chance to look at my results.
A "Lappid" phenotype is not exclusive to Saami, there are plenty of Norwegians who look "Lappish" and have neither Saami or North Eurasian admixture.

[Franz]

Where did I inherit my eye shape from?

How should I know? I could make an educated guess, but they're most likely similar to other Norwegians. Most research is being done on diseases and other health aspects not so much on physical appearance like craniofacial traits.

[Agrippa]

How should I know? I could make an educated guess, but they're most likely similar to other Norwegians. Most research is being done on diseases and other health aspects not so much on physical appearance like craniofacial traits.

Indeed, that will be the future research, then we will know it for sure if being done properly and objectively, open to the public.

[Pallantides]

I have been classified as "Lappid" by many people(Bärin from Skadi even said my mother looked Half Japanese)

[Agrippa]

I have been classified as "Lappid" by many people(Bärin from Skadi even said my mother looked Half Japanese)

Point is, a typical Lappid would, among other things, have never the proportional and other features you have. So at best or worst, like you want to see it, you can only have an influence from that side and as we all know, even the core Lappid type is basically still more on the Europid side and at best/worst borderline.

So any mix implies automatically a very small "foreign influence" and if just certain traits being kept alive, on their own, over generations, this influence can be reduced to almost nothing, yet the origin of specific traits remains as specific - oftentimes at least.

[Franz]

Indeed, that will be the future research, then we will know it for sure if being done properly and objectively, open to the public.

I guess that type of research might be difficult and complex or maybe not. The nose might be affected by hundreds or thousands of genes. The jaw can affect the shape of the nose, and that can be changed by diet. Environmental, social selection and mutations play their roles. For example, mouth breathing or an accident could alter the face.

There was some research on it: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090214162756.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090214162756.htm)

Some excerpts:


Facial traits vary among humans, but do tend to group by population. For example, in general, West Africans have wider faces than Europeans and Europeans have longer faces than West Africans.

"There is a strong relationship between genetic ancestry and facial traits," said Shriver. "Using individuals of combined ancestry, European and African, we can see how the target genes alter facial traits."

The researchers reported on a sample of 254 individuals using three-dimensional imaging and measured the distances between specific portions of the face. Each individual had provided a DNA sample.

"We started with 22 landmarks on the faces that could be accurately located in all the images," said Shriver.

From their DNA profiles, Shriver could determine the admixture percentages of each individual, how much of their genetic make up came from each group. He could then compare the genetically determined admixture to the facial feature differences and determine the relative differences from the parental populations.

"This type of study, done on admixed populations shows that each person is a composite of their ancestors and that the range of facial features is a continuum," says Shriver.

Shriver found that there was a very strong statistical correlation between the amounts of admixture and the facial traits.

[Pallantides]

My top 20 and graph by mnd661 from ABF

SE4
SE5
NO3
EE1
NO1
SE8
US71
SE1
SE2
NO5
NO6
NO7
US61
US182
US111
SE6
North_Russian
US5
EE2
RU
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1334/no2b.jpg

[Pallantides]

When is a genetic map also a geographic map? Always and never (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2011/02/when-is-genetic-map-also-geographic-map.html)


Just after posting my last entry I realized that it might seem a bit confusing to those who don't really have much experience in reading PCA/MDS plots. So instead of rehashing it, I decided to make another entry about how to read such plots, which might come in handy to my project members. It's really not that difficult, if you keep in mind that they're never really geographic maps, but at the same time, always contain at least some results that show high correlation with geography.

In that last blog entry about the Balto-Slavs I concluded that, in terms of intra-European genetic diversity, Balts were more easterly than Slavs. I based this on both PCA/MDS plots and genetic distances. The reason I did this was because, as mentioned above, PCA/MDS results don't always gel with geography, especially when relative genetic isolates are included in the analysis. The plot I used from Nelis et al. 2009 showed clearly how adding a relative genetic isolate, like Eastern Finns from Kuusamo, can wreck the correlation between genes and geography.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/NE_Europe2-2.png

Adding the samples from the Kuusamo isolate basically means that "east" is no longer in the same direction for all the samples on that plot. If we are to assume that it is in the same direction, we get absurd results like Swedes being more easterly than Russians. Obviously, there are now two, perhaps more, directions which correlate well with the geographic "east" within Europe. As you can see, I marked the two obvious ones on that plot as East 1 and East 2.

So now, it seems, we're facing a problem. Which "east" applies to the Balts and Slavs? If it's East 1, then Russians are more easterly than Lithuanians. If it's East 2, then it's the other way around. But not to worry, because it's easy to work that out. The simplest thing to do is to focus on the samples we're interested in, and zoom in on that area of the plot. So let's just leave the Swedes, North Germans, Czechs, Poles, Russians, Lithuanians and Latvians in the analysis, and ignore the Finnic and Southern European samples.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/NE_Europe3-1.png

OK, so now the plot makes much more sense; Swedes and North Germans are located west of Poles and Russians, as we'd expect. At the same time, if we're to follow this line of thinking, Lithuanians and Latvians are located east of Poles and Russians. Just to make sure this is correct, let's see what happens on a plot that doesn't include the Kuusamo isolate.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4118/euro12overview.png

The difference is clear; there's now only one "east", which runs towards the bottom of the plot (ie. west to east = vertical axis).

In order to cement these findings, we can now look at some pairwise intra-European genetic distances. Let's double check, for instance, that the Lithuanians and Latvians are indeed more easterly than the Poles and Russians, as opposed to just being, say, more northerly. For this I use the same table as in my last log entry.

Russians from Tver versus...

- Utah Americans of Northern and Western European origin (1.56)
- French (1.94)
- Swedes (1.59)
- Finns from Helsinki (2.10)
- Southern Italians (2.68)
- Spanish (2.32)


Lithuanians versus...

- Utah Americans of Northern and Western European origin (1.74)
- French (2.20)
- Swedes (1.74)
- Finns from Helsinki (2.33)
- Southern Italians (2.96)
- Spanish (2.62)

Lithuanians and Latvians are much less similar to western Europeans than Russians are. Therefore, they are more easterly than Russians in terms of intra-European genetic diversity. At the same time, they're not more similar to Northern European populations such as Swedes and Finns. Therefore, any claims, for instance, that they're simply more northerly than Russians don't hold up. In fact, based on all the pairwise scores, the best way to describe the situation is to say that Russians are more mainstream as far as intra-European genetic diversity is concerned, while there's something fairly unique about the Balts, which is especially evident when looking at Latvians.

As I've already noted in my last blog entry, I can't see this as being a recent development. Rather, the close genetic relationship between current Northern Slavs and Balts seems like the recent development, and likely due to mixing in the last 1000 years or so. Before that, I suspect, these two groups were much more distinct from each other than they are today.

By the way, there are two points I'd like to stress before signing off. Firstly, it's important to understand that what is "east" on an intra-European PCA/MDS plot, need not be "east" on an inter-continental plot. For instance, consider a Central European ethnic group with some minor East Eurasian admixture, and an Eastern European group with less East Eurasian admixture. The former will cluster "west" of the latter on an intra-European plot. However, when East Asian samples are added to the analysis, it then becomes an inter-continental plot, and the Central European group with the more significant Asian influence will pull "east" further than the Eastern Europeans. You can actually see something like that on the following two plots I published recently; intra-North Eurasian where Lithuanians cluster west of Hungarians, and intra-European, where the situation is reversed.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/6818/neura12.pnghttp://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4118/euro12overview.png

Anyone with an interest in these sorts of analyses should try and sort this out in their minds before attempting any sort of interpretation of PCA/DS plots.


Secondly, and this goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway; beware of making generalizations about entire language groups based on small sample sets. For instance, it's not reasonable to draw inferences about the relationship between Balts and Slavs based on the 10 Lithuanians from the Behar et al. study. These are just 10 people, possibly from near the Belorussian and Polish borders, and might be very different from their countrymen from another part of Lithuania, and even more distinct from Latvians. However, it is reasonable to do what I did, and that was to look at sample sets of tens and hundreds of individuals, from Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Russia, featured in recent peer-reviewed studies. As I say, this all pure logic, but sometimes it needs to be reiterated.

[Polako]

The Southeastern European cluster makes no sense. It’s not clear at all what this cluster means like the others, or what he did.

There's not much to do really. Just load the samples into ADMIXTURE correctly, and give them a spin.

There you have it, mystery solved.


The Southeast European cluster appears highest in the Turks and Jews but not in the Southeast Europeans, so that’s a bad name for it.

You can call it the pink cluster if that makes you feel better.


For example, PL1 sums to 1.02 and CA5 sums to 0.98. I would like to see more clusters. Dienekes will be doing 64 clusters. With more clusters, we would be able to notice more differences among the samples. Polako does have an agenda though.

Have you ever hard of rounding off figures to the nearest per cent?

By the way, what's my agenda? Please do tell. Mind you, if you come up with some crock of shit I'm gonna pressure you to prove it. And you better do a good job by loading up these samples into ADMIXTURE and showing us exactly how I "manipulated" them.

If you can't do that, then I'd suggest you keep your conspiracy theories to yourself.


Maybe Polako made a mistake? It’s not from someone that submitted his/her raw data to him but from a dataset.

I don't make mistakes like that. It's a sample from the Finnish HapMap. You can see how he's behaving in a study done by the Finns (look for the southernmost Finn).

Founder population-specific HapMap panel increases power in GWA studies through improved imputation accuracy and CNV tagging - supp info (http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2010/09/01/gr.106534.110.DC1/Surakka_et_al_GenomeResearch_supplementary_materia l_revision2.doc)


With more clusters, it should be more apparent.

Not gonna work, because ADMIXTURE goes ballistic at high Ks, especially with closely related groups.

Europe at K=5 is all I can do without hundreds of samples from each country and ethnic group. Maybe 6 might work, but that'd take all night.


What happened to NO4? Some Germans are missing. Maybe they requested withdrawal?

Obviously, they're related. Again, mystery solved. Glad I could help out.


I find it extremely intriguing that Polako decided to take the Lithuanians as a sample population for "Northern-European". Knowing his theories about the history of European populations, I shouldn't be surprised.

This is one of the reasons why I do not trust these "one-man" genetic researches.

I'll bring an example how this can influence people: Loki told me that Lithuanians and Belorussians are the most Northern-European Europeans.

Now if I made a genetic research and started collecting 23andme raw data, I could take the Scanian(southern-Swedish) population as my Northern-European sample population and then I could claim that Scanians are the most Northern-European Europeans, followed by Danes and Swedes.

Some people take these "one-man" genetic researches very seriously, which I find funny.

I find it funny that you actually decided to post this in public, without the foggiest idea how ADMIXTURE works.

The program picks who has the highest of whatever, and the cluster that seems "Northern European" always peaks in Lithuanians.

If you don't think so, then try it. Everything's online. I'll give you $500 if you put it all together properly, and then miraculously prove myself and Behar wrong by showing that Lithuanians aren't the modal group for that component.

But if you fail, you owe me $500.


Now if I made a genetic research and started collecting 23andme raw data, I could take the Scanian(southern-Swedish) population as my Northern-European sample population and then I could claim that Scanians are the most Northern-European Europeans, followed by Danes and Swedes.

Bwahaha...yeah, you do that sunshine.

[Graham]

Basque 13%
Mediterranean 2%
Southeast European 3%
Baltic Finnish 7%
North Euro 75%


Top matches, excluding Americans, Canadians etc..



BY2
IE3
NO7
IE4
FR
IE6
UK16
UK4
DE1
FR
IE9
IE8
DE9
RU11
IE10

[Franz]

There's not much to do really. Just load the samples into ADMIXTURE correctly, and give them a spin.

There you have it, mystery solved.

You can call it the pink cluster if that makes you feel better.

Something like that I expected. Parameters can be changed. There's more genetic diversity in there, so that explains the not so distinct cluster. Jews and Turks aren’t Southeastern European. As for cluster names, those that know more history, migrations, archaeology, etc. would understand them better. For those that don't, it's misleading.


Have you ever hard of rounding off figures to the nearest per cent?

By the way, what's my agenda? Please do tell. Mind you, if you come up with some crock of shit I'm gonna pressure you to prove it. And you better do a good job by loading up these samples into ADMIXTURE and showing us exactly how I "manipulated" them.

If you can't do that, then I'd suggest you keep your conspiracy theories to yourself.I've programmed using rounding algorithms. It's obviously rounding up whether it's round-ceiling or round-half-up, or whatever. Comparing the two extremes, 98% and 102%, there's a substantial 4% difference. Rounding to the nearest whole percent isn’t causing that. You or the spreadsheet is causing the limitation. You should fix it.

In order for me to prove that, you would have to give me all the data. It's not necessarily the results but the interpretations. Conspiracies are fun. I'm not the only one.


I don't make mistakes like that. It's a sample from the Finnish HapMap. You can see how he's behaving in a study done by the Finns (look for the southernmost Finn).

Founder population-specific HapMap panel increases power in GWA studies through improved imputation accuracy and CNV tagging - supp info (http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2010/09/01/gr.106534.110.DC1/Surakka_et_al_GenomeResearch_supplementary_materia l_revision2.doc)On your global MDS, some SNPs you picked between v3 and v2 data didn't overlap as they were no-calls. That caused skewness.


Not gonna work, because ADMIXTURE goes ballistic at high Ks, especially with closely related groups.

Europe at K=5 is all I can do without hundreds of samples from each country and ethnic group. Maybe 6 might work, but that'd take all night.Upgrade your hardware or wait longer. v1.1 can use parallel processing on multi-core processors. Still, these simulations and programs like STRUCTURE which uses a different algorithm can have problems that is if the user uses them wrong.


Obviously, they're related. Again, mystery solved. Glad I could help out.<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> It wasn’t obvious, but it was a mystery.

[Loki]

*Loki pours a glass of Tokaj while making this post of his top matches*



1.HU
2.HU
3.HU
4.HU
5.HU
6.HU
7.CH1
8.HU
9.HU
10.HU
11.HU
12.HU
13.DE7
14.HU
15.US46


(thanks Graham)

[Grumpy Cat]

Polako did his run? I was supposed to be in the next one, but I never got my name.

[Pallantides]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' British and Irish (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes_02.html)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/UK.png


Key: Red = Belarussian + Lihuanian (Baltic?), Yellow = Spanish (Iberian), Green = French (Atlantic?), Aqua = Hungarian (Central European), Blue = Italian (Southern European), Pink = Norwegian + Swedish (Scandinavian).
Spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdFZFTUdyeXhzbmRHV0Z4dmx0Q1UtZ FE&hl=en&authkey=CP79w_YB#gid=0)




Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Scandinavians (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes_1828.html)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/NOR-1.png(the second bar is me)


Key: Red = Belorussian + Lithuanian (Baltic?), Orange = East Finnish (Finnic), Green = French (Atlantic?), Aqua = Hungarian (Central European), Blue (not recorded) = Italian (Southern European), Dark Blue = Nganassan + Koryak + Yakut (Siberian), Lezgin (Caucasus or maybe Odin?).
Spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdEV6NDRWaWxJNTNQZEgzWVBmTEFXY 3c&hl=en&authkey=CI39jt4N#gid=0)

[Pallantides]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Finns and Estonians (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes-finns.html)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/FIN-1.png

Key: Red = Belorussian + Lithuanian (Balto-Slavic?), Orange = Pathan + Burusho (South Central Asian), Light Green = Finnish (Finnic), Green = French (Atlantic?), Aqua = Hungarian (Central European), Blue = Italian (Southern European), Dark Blue = Karitiana + Pima + Koryak (Amerindian), Purple = Koryak + Nganassan + Yakut (Siberian), Pink = Norwegian + Swedish (Scandinavian).

Spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdG1mY2ZTTWdYOC1YNkN3MVJ0bHA5e lE&hl=en&authkey=CNmFyOQN#gid=0)


The two first bars are Estonians, EE1 and EE2.

[Äike]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Finns and Estonians (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes-finns.html)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/FIN-1.png

Key: Red = Belorussian + Lithuanian (Balto-Slavic?), Orange = Pathan + Burusho (South Central Asian), Light Green = Finnish (Finnic), Green = French (Atlantic?), Aqua = Hungarian (Central European), Blue = Italian (Southern European), Dark Blue = Karitiana + Pima + Koryak (Amerindian), Purple = Koryak + Nganassan + Yakut (Siberian), Pink = Norwegian + Swedish (Scandinavian).

Spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdG1mY2ZTTWdYOC1YNkN3MVJ0bHA5e lE&hl=en&authkey=CNmFyOQN#gid=0)


The two first bars are Estonians, EE1 and EE2.

It's pretty interesting, how the founder population in Lithuania has had an effect on these charts.

When purely looking at Y-DNA, Lithuania is the 2nd most Finno-Ugric country in Europe, after Finland. That red "Balto-Slavic" genetic group that forms quite definitely has a very large "southern-Finnic" component which is automatically labeled as Balto-Slavic, thus increasing the "Balto-Slavic", in native southern-Finnic populations.

What's the difference between the "Baltic" in the Scandinavian charts and the "Balto-Slavic" in the Estonian-Finnish chart?

[Don Brick]

^Cool stuff. I´m the eight bar in the chart btw. Oh yeah, also might as well post my top 20 Eurogenes´ matches while I´m at it. No graph though.

FI
FI
WEUFI2
FI
FI5
FI
FI
FI
Komi1
FI
FI
FI
FI
CA1
FI
US203
FI

[Pallantides]

For the Brits who score some Scandinavian and Baltic

Norwegian/Swedish(Scandinavian) = Anglo-Saxon or Danish Vikings
Norwegian/Swedish + Lithuanian/Belarusian(Baltic) = Norwegian Vikings

[Aino]

I am the fourth bar, all light green. :)

[Curtis24]

I guess that type of research might be difficult and complex or maybe not. The nose might be affected by hundreds or thousands of genes. The jaw can affect the shape of the nose, and that can be changed by diet. Environmental, social selection and mutations play their roles. For example, mouth breathing or an accident could alter the face.


Non-genetic studies would be relatively simple. You just take which people cluster together, and study them for common facial traits.


As for genetic studies, the way that genetics technology is progressing, they will probably be doing these types of things sooner than we think.

[Pallantides]

I am the fourth bar, all light green. :)

The ür-Finn;)

[Graham]

For the Brits who score some Scandinavian and Baltic

Norwegian/Swedish(Scandinavian) = Anglo-Saxon or Danish Vikings
Norwegian/Swedish + Lithuanian/Belarusian(Baltic) = Norwegian Vikings

Some of the Irish score higher amounts viking genes! :D I wonder where UK16 is from. UK16's all Green.

[quotablepatella]

I'm UK9 and got -

48.6% Green (French (Atlantic?))
33.9% Pink (Norwegian + Swedish (Scandinavian))
11.8% Blue (Italian (Southern European)) - one of only two out of the UK and Irish participants to have any real presence of this
5.4% Red (Belarussian + Lithuanian (Baltic?))
0.0001% Yellow (Spanish (Iberian))
0.0001% Light Blue (Hungarian (Central European))

I'm from an area that saw both Norwegian and Danish Vikings, plus I have some Irish (possibly more Norwegian Vikings), and I supposedly have some Norman ancestors (Danish Viking).

[Moonbird]

I am the fourth bar, all light green. :)

You can be sure you're a Finn:)

[Don Brick]

Could somebody technically more competent than me post the new fine scale analyses of Estonians, Finns and Russians here? I can´t get it here. :rolleyes: I´d appreciate it. :)

[Pallantides]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Estonians, Finns & Russians (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes-finns_03.html)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/FIN2.png


Key: Red = Polish (Central-Eastern European), Light Green = Lithuanian (Baltic), Aqua Blue = Chuvash (Eastern European + Siberian), Purple = Swedish + Norwegian (Scandinavian)

Spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGdsRmxZd044bTdhWnlydnQzMC1zT 3c&hl=en&authkey=COixl_wG#gid=0)


I'd like to add that the last bars are Russians obviously (in case someone don't bother to look at the spreadsheet...)

[Aino]

In this new analysis, I am 62.8% Scandinavian, 23.7% Baltic, and 13.5% Chuvash (Eastern European + Siberian). That makes sense considering what is known about the population history of Finland. Also, since I was 100% Finnish/Finnic in the previous run, my results in this run probably represent the results of a typical Finn.

[Pallantides]

The purple (Scandinavian/Swedish+Norwegian) component is very strong in Finns compared to Russians and Estonians. :)

[Don Brick]

Thanks a lot Palla! I´m once again the eight bar. What is interesting is the red Polish (Central-Eastern European) I have which is completely absent in other Finns. Polako suggested that it´s actually most likely relatively recent South Scandinavian (Danish?) influence that wasn´t picked up by the purple Swedish+Norwegian (Scandinavian) component (hope I´m not screwing up all the terminology here :p). Anyway, hopefully this "mystery" will be solved. This is all so fascinating! :)

[Loki]

The purple (Scandinavian/Swedish+Norwegian) component is very strong in Finns compared to Russians and Estonians. :)

Am I right in saying that Estonians and Russians are genetically closer to each other than either are to Finns?

[Äike]

Am I right in saying that Estonians and Russians are genetically closer to each other than either are to Finns?

Russians(mostly NW-Russians, who have heavy Finnic heritage) form a group between the Estonians and the Finns. Finns are genetically closer to NW-Russians than they are to Estonians and Estonians are genetically closer to NW-Russians than they are to the Finns. You can look at this way, Finns are northern-Finnics, NW-Russians are central-Finnics and Estonians are southern-Finnics.

The same logic applies to the fact that Germans are genetically closer to the Danes than they are to the Swedes.

But Finns are a more interesting group, they have experienced a serious bottle-neck and form their own little neat genetic cluster.

Russians are a very wide group, by the way, only NW-Russians show considerably higher genetic similarity to Estonians and the Finns, because of the recently assimilated Finnic people. While your average southern-Russian might be genetically more similar to a Georgian than he is to any Northern-European.


I think that I already explained something similar in a PM, but you said that my 23andme results clearly show that I am a Slav.

Edit: I am trying to make things more obvious, as you weren't able to grasp some things on previous occasions. Linguistics nor ethnical groupings do not play the main role in genetics. Geography, bottlenecks and historical assimilation/migrations play a role. Thus a Germanic Austrian is more similar to a Romance Northern-Italian, than he is to a Germanic Northern-German. Albanians are genetically similar to the Serbians, as they descend from the same native population of the Balkan people etc.

[Loki]

I think that I already explained something similar in a PM, but you said that my 23andme results clearly show that I am a Slav.


I was just saying that you cluster with some Slavic groups (Polish?). I do as well (cluster with Poles and Ukrainians, as well as Germans and French). And you almost cluster with Russians according to that metric. It's just interesting, that's all.

[Äike]

I was just saying that you cluster with some Slavic groups (Polish?). I do as well (cluster with Poles and Ukrainians, as well as Germans and French). And you almost cluster with Russians according to that metric. It's just interesting, that's all.

It isn't interesting, it is completely normal and logical, when looking at the 23andme sample populations. There are many(the ones I share with) Finns and Swedes who cluster with the Russians or the Poles in the 23andme cluster. That's because of the lack of Northern-European(no, the French aren't Northern-Europeans) sample populations. Thus the true "northerners" the Estonians and the Finns are too northern for the Northern-European cluster. Anyway, in my Eastern-European view, the most Russian person is a Finn(almost in the center of the cluster), while some Russians, who I share with, are on the edges of the Russian cluster.

23andme should radically update its sample populations. A Finnish cluster should definitely be added, as there are so many Finns there. :p

[Don Brick]

Thanks a lot Palla! I´m once again the eight bar. What is interesting is the red Polish (Central-Eastern European) I have which is completely absent in other Finns. Polako suggested that it´s actually most likely relatively recent South Scandinavian (Danish?) influence that wasn´t picked up by the purple Swedish+Norwegian (Scandinavian) component (hope I´m not screwing up all the terminology here :p). Anyway, hopefully this "mystery" will be solved. This is all so fascinating! :)

Oops, no I´m the ninth bar (FI 6), not the eight. Has somebody new been added to the chart? I swear to God I was the eight bar just a couple of days ago... Oh well.

[Electronic God-Man]

I just got around to looking at the "Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' white Americans" and got this:



http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7333&d=1299517530

It's interesting. I seem to score a little higher than other Americans for the Baltic category, but a lot higher for Finnic, other than those with huge proportions like 50% who are probably actually part Finnish. I believe it must have to do with my Lithuanian ancestry. :)

Also, I score just a little higher than most for the Ashkenazim category. It's hard to tell though. Lots of people with about 0% and then others with anywhere from 15% and up, but those might be people with known Ashkenazi ancestry. Also, this run confuses Southern European ancestry with Jewish ancestry. Not that I have any known Southern European ancestry either though.

[Don Brick]

The purple (Scandinavian/Swedish+Norwegian) component is very strong in Finns compared to Russians and Estonians. :)

Yes it´s interesting. Even EESE1 who I assume to be half Estonian half Swedish (Simonsson perhaps? :)) scores lower Scandinavian percentages than any of the Finns do. On the other hand his Chuvash component is bigger than that of any of the Estonians which is curious. Anyhow, the "Baltic force" is still indeed very strong in him. :p

[Pallantides]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Germanics (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes_07.html)

As you can see, there are two bar plots featured below, courtesy of a "supervised" run in ADMIXTURE 1.1 focusing on Germanic speakers. The first shows samples from the UK, Low Countries, Germany and Scandinavia, while the second includes mixed individuals, or at least those lacking single country codes. Unfortunately, many eligible project members missed out, but this is something of a test run anyway, so I'll give you a spin next time in a more refined version.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8263/germ.png
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2310/mixc.png


Key: Red = French (North Atlantic), Yellow = Balorussian + Lithuanian (Baltic), Green = Hungarian (Central European), Aqua = Southern & Central Italian + Greek (Southern European), Dark Blue = Chuvash (Volga-Ural), Pink = Basque. See spreadsheets for details here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdDhfSlFxYUNOTTkyYnd0OVlNMGg0T nc&hl=en&authkey=CJDYraYM#gid=0) and here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdElTSE5la2pUOUdNZjdfc2RZbDNaX 3c&hl=en&authkey=CIDmk7kN#gid=0).

Basically, the most striking feature is the predominance of the red, a cluster created with the help of a filtered group of French samples from the HGDP. I'm calling it "North Atlantic", because it always peaks in individuals from around that general area. You can see that it's most prevalent here in the UK set, which really doesn't show much of anything else except some "Central European" (courtesy of a filtered Hungarian reference set sporting classic Central European genetic characteristics).

The German group is quite easy to spot, largely thanks to a steep rise in "Baltic" yellow and "Southern European" aqua in their part of the plot. These Germans are from all over Germany, and several have recent ancestry from Prussia and Silesia, so the "Baltic" scores of 20% + make sense. Scandinavians are even more distinctive - just look for the steady level of the blue "Volga-Ural". This is obviously a signal of Finnic ancestry in Scandinavia, and certainly not straight up East or North Eurasian admixture.

Interestingly, the person who describes themselves as German/Italian (DEIT1) shows just over 45% membership in the Southern European cluster. This is obviously much higher than any of the reportedly unmixed Germans.

The pink "French Basque" cluster appears in a choppy, sporadic fashion. It's clearly not a steady feature of any of the Germanic groups featured in this comparison, unlike it is of the Spaniards and Portuguese (see here (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-iberians.html)).





Of all the "Germanics"(not counting the mixed individuals) only SE4 have higher Dark Blue(Chuvash (Volga-Ural) than me:cool:


my numbers

Red(North Atlantic) 0.812146
Yellow(Baltic) 0.127156
Green(Central European) 0.00001
Aqua(Southern European) 0.00001
Dark Blue(Volga-Ural) 0.060668
Pink(Basque) 0.00001

[Osweo]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Germanics (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes_07.html)

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8263/germ.png
So this is in the same order as the spreadsheet linked to? If so, I'm the sixth one along, mostly red (N Atlantic) with a bit of yellow (Mitteleuropa). :)


Red(North Atlantic) 0.812146
Yellow(Baltic) 0.127156
Green(Central European) 0.00001
Aqua(Southern European) 0.00001
Dark Blue(Volga-Ural) 0.060668
Pink(Basque) 0.00001
Me;
Red(North Atlantic) 0.900592
Yellow(Baltic) 0.077888
Green(Central European) 0.00001
Aqua(Southern European) 0.00001
Dark Blue(Volga-Ural) 0.02149
Pink(Basque) 0.00001

What the devil? Didn't I get 10% 'Basque' the other day? :p
And look at my Volzhsko-Uralskost'! :eek: Mind aiup oksele... ;)

[quotablepatella]

I note that I'm the only UK member with any real aqua, more like the German members (which makes sense as they are from part of Europe much closer to Italy), although for the others I seem very much typically British.

I have 81.1% French/North Atlantic, which seems fairly normal for the UK.

For the Belorussian and Lithuanian/Baltic cluster, I have 10.3%, which is almost double what I had of this cluster in the last analysis, although I don't know if that is significant in any way.

For Hungarian/Central European and for Basque, I have almost nothing, which isn't out of the ordinary for the UK.

For the Southern & Central Italian and Greek (Southern European), I have 7.05%, so around half of what I had last time, with the Baltic cluster gaining this half from what I can tell.

For Chuvash (Volga-Ural), I have 1.4% and this is probably just due to similarity with Scandinavians.

[Loki]

My results from here (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes_07.html):

North Atlantic: 74.17%
Balto-Slavic: 0.00%
Southern European: 17.54%
Volga-Ural (Finnic): 8.29%

I seem to be the only "German" (which I'm not really in the modern sense anyway) who has no Slavic component. In that sense I'm more alike to Britishers, but with somewhat more SE.

[Pallantides]

Seems your more Finnic than me Loki :confused:


my numbers from that one

North Atlantic: 81.41%
Balto-Slavic: 12.53%
Southern European: 0.00%
Volga-Ural (Finnic): 6.04%

[Pallantides]

Fine scale analysis of Eurogenes' Scandinavians, Finns and Russians (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes-finns.html)


In this "supervised" ADMIXTURE experiment I assume that Northern and Northeastern Europeans are a mix of just four ancestral groups: Atlantic, Central European, Baltic and Volga-Ural. I picked French samples most similar to those from the Low Countries in my dataset, while the Hungarians I used could pass for Austrians or Germans on many PCA/MDS maps. It's interesting to note the high level of the "Atlantic" component in Baltic Finns, and I put that down to Scandinavian admixture. Similarly, the "Central European" component in some of these Finns is probably of Swedish origin, but it might be German too. In Russia it's most certainly due to Slavic influence.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8335/fscan.png


Key: Red = French + Flemish + Dutch (Atlantic), Light Green = Hungarian (Central European), Aqua = Lithuanian (Baltic), Purple = Chuvash (Eastern European + Siberian). See spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdFFEejR1anpLRWtDWlBfbHRWZ3Znb Gc&hl=en&authkey=CK-ixboL#gid=0) for details.


My numbers(NO2)

Red 76.85
Light Green 0.00
Aqua 18.50
Purple 4.64

compared with NO1(western Norwegian)

Red 80.52
Light Green 11.38
Aqua 3.74
Purple 4.35

[Don Brick]

Neat! My percentages (FI6).

Red (Atlantic) 45.24 %
Light Green (Central European) 16.10 %
Aqua (Baltic) 25.68 %
Purple (Eastern European + Siberian) 12.96 %

[quotablepatella]

There's a newer version of the Germanic results available -
http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/fine-scale-analysis-of-eurogenes_07.html


My percentages yesterday -

81.1% French/North Atlantic
10.3% Belorussian and Lithuanian/Baltic cluster
7.05% Southern & Central Italian and Greek (Southern European)
1.40% Chuvash (Volga-Ural)
0.0001% Hungarian/Central European
0.0001% Basque

My percentages today -

83.7% Selected French (North Atlantic) - Average for UK 93.6%
8.7% Belorussian + Lithuanian (Balto-Slavic) - Average for UK 5.1%
5.9% Italian + Greek (Southern European) - Average for UK 0.6%
1.5% Chuvash (Volga-Ural) - Average for UK 0.5%

[Graham]

0.99997% Selected French (North Atlantic)
0.00001% Belorussian + Lithuanian (Balto-Slavic)
0.00001% Italian + Greek (Southern European)
0.00001% Chuvash (Volga-Ural)

Ok for that I am

[Äike]

Yes it´s interesting. Even EESE1 who I assume to be half Estonian half Swedish (Simonsson perhaps? :)) scores lower Scandinavian percentages than any of the Finns do. On the other hand his Chuvash component is bigger than that of any of the Estonians which is curious.

I know that Simonsson has never done a genetic test, but I know nothing about EESE1, but I assume that his/her Swedish ancestors are from Northern-Sweden.


Anyhow, the "Baltic force" is still indeed very strong in him. :p

Practically saying, Estonia, Finland, Scandinavia have had one wave of Indo-European immigrants, the terrain in Estonia and Finland was so marshy and inhospitable for farming, that the Indo-European people nor their languages were successful here.

The "Baltic force" you are talking about is driven up by the very Finnic Lithuanians(Looking at their N1c1 rates and one could say that they're almost like a bunch of Finns).

Polako does his research by taken sample populations, naming them and then telling people who high of a percentage the people got of that sample population.

If he took an Estonian sample population and named it "southern-Finnic", then we would be speaking about "the Finnic force" in the Lithuanians. If the Baltic people/Indo-Europeans would have had an opportunity to leave a strong enough mark here, then I would be speaking an Indo-European language. We can say with completely certainty, that all of Western- and Northern-Europeans didn't speak Indo-European languages originally, but now they do. Thus the climate/terrain/marshiness etc. here must have been very inhospitable for the Indo-Europeans, for us to still speak a language which predates Indo-European in Northern-Europe.

The thing with Polako is that he denies any Finnic/Finno-Ugric presence among the Lithuanians and genetically to him, they are 100% Baltic. While in reality, they are our FinN1c brothers. ;) Divide that "Baltic" into half, with one half being "Baltic" and the other half being "southern-Finnic".

I think that you have read my signature on ForumBiodiversity, it sums up his views quite perfectly.

No professional gene scientist who makes researches in population genetics, doesn't think that the Indo-Europeans were in Finland before the Finno-Ugric people.

[Pallantides]

Hi Mordid...:rolleyes:

[Don Brick]

Hi Mordid...:rolleyes:

I suspected the same some time back, but notice his join date, Dec 2009. ;) So I doubt it.

[Polako]

Let's just say there's a reason why EESE1 scores less North Atlantic than some Finns. I can't say why, but Karls' on the right track, for once.

[Franz]

Hi Mordid...:rolleyes:

That isn't him but "dragon" is.

[Pallantides]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/03/characterizing-western-european.html

My numbers

Red(French+Germans) 0%
Yellow(Finnish) 20.07%
Green(Western and Northern Russian) 0%
Blue(Irish+British) 79.91%

[Don Brick]

Oh yes, this one. OK, my numbers. Once again a good fer nuttin´ mutt.

Red=French+Germans (Continental Western European)= 13.45 %
Yellow=Finnish (Baltic Finnic)= 53.05 %
Green=Western and Northern Russian (Eastern European)= 9.79 %
Blue=Irish+British (North Atlantic)=23.69 %
Purple=Italian + Greek (Southern European)=0 %

[Pallantides]

Oh forgot the purple(Italian+Greek)... I also got 0% in that one.

:)

[Pallantides]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8199/baltic2.gif

[Pallantides]

Couple of more Baltic plots from Lemminkäinen


1st pic dimensions: D1-100%, D2-100%, D3-0%

2nd pic dimensions: D1-100%, D2-0%, D3-100%

3rd pic dimensions: D1-0%, D2-100%, D3-100%


You can use these pics to evaluate components.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7493/balticd1100d2100d30.gif
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7291/balticd1100d20d3100.gif
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/313/balticd10d2100d3100.gif



Any interpetations on my results?

[Ibericus]

Interesting to see that the Danish guy (DK2) seems to be the most Western, and then come the scandinavians. There is a clear western-eastern gradient.

[Pallantides]

I'm fairly close to DK2


...Does this mean I have have very little Balto-Slavic input?

[Pallantides]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/interactive-mds-analysis-of-north.html


Interactive MDS analysis of North European Americans

Here I ran my white American project members against sample sets from the UK, Ireland, Scandinavia, France, Poland, Germany, South and West Finland, and others. I chose these reference samples to help flesh out potential signals of ancestry from different parts of North, Central and Eastern Europe. On the other hand, I left out other references from the north, like the Lithuanians, who tend to polarize Northern Europe into east and west, and contract the western cluster. I don't know what they do this, because from what I've just seen, they're really not very different from Northwest Europeans at haploblock level (results of that analysis to be published here soon). Perhaps it's a result of some freaky allele frequencies due to founder effect? Anyway, refer to the "Test samples" sheet to see which MDS you're on, and follow the instructions below
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9272/neuj.png
NO2 : I'm between UK21 and NO6

[Osweo]

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/interactive-mds-analysis-of-north.html

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9272/neuj.png
NO2 : I'm between UK21 and NO6
Only 'IE9' is above me, as I circle around the dizzy heights of Atlantean purity.

DOWN with IE9! IE9 Delenda EST! :rage

[Polako]

^ Watch out, there's a shortage of oxygen up there.

[Osweo]

^ Watch out, there's a shortage of oxygen up there.

I fear that may be all too evident in the average quality of my posts... :suomut:

[Pallantides]

Eurogenes 500K BGA project ID list
https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1BesUZ4T0mTczn-H5kommfYfI57Rzbba4OuYK_2uQOxY&hl=en&pli=1#



Listed Norwegians

NO1 Evon_Evon - Western Norwegian
NO2 Pallantides/Homogenic - Eastern Norwegian
NO3 Calamus - Eastern Norwegian
NO5 Chortogaeus/kaiono - Eastern Norwegian
NO6 SteveT - ½ Eastern Norwegian, ¼ Western Norwegian, ¼ Swedish

[Pallantides]

Traces of Neolithic migration waves in our genomes...? (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/neolithic-population-waves-in-our-genes.html)

My result

Basque 42.53%
Chuvash 57.45%
Armenian 0%
Nganassan + Dolgan + Yukagir 0%

[Graham]

In order, Britain and Ireland

Basque (Neolithic West Wave), Chuvash (Neolithic East Wave), Armenian (Neolithic Wave 2) Nganassan + Dolgan + Yukagir (Aboriginal North Eurasian).

uk1 0.541813 0.423182 0.034995 0.00001
uk14 0.550944 0.425004 0.024042 0.00001
uk15 0.531578 0.449969 0.018443 0.00001
uk16 0.538107 0.420225 0.041658 0.00001
uk17 0.409556 0.481622 0.108812 0.00001
uk19 0.577071 0.412444 0.010475 0.00001
uk20 0.539665 0.460315 0.00001 0.00001
uk21 0.57612 0.42386 0.00001 0.00001
uk22 0.527733 0.407491 0.064766 0.00001
uk23 0.564837 0.393265 0.041888 0.00001
uk25 0.570645 0.416 0.013345 0.00001
uk26 0.514189 0.466181 0.01962 0.00001
uk3 0.55977 0.409264 0.030956 0.00001
uk4 0.535696 0.408467 0.055827 0.00001
uk6 0.553375 0.434468 0.012148 0.00001
uk8 0.55395 0.433201 0.012839 0.00001
uk9 0.541926 0.444802 0.013262 0.00001

IE10 0.552994 0.435617 0.011379 0.00001
IE3 0.569858 0.430122 0.00001 0.00001
IE4 0.543716 0.447311 0.008963 0.00001
IE5 0.504717 0.430929 0.064344 0.00001
IE6 0.576161 0.423819 0.00001 0.00001
IE7 0.520626 0.472666 0.006698 0.00001
IE8 0.568659 0.431321 0.00001 0.00001
IE9 0.537759 0.462221 0.00001 0.00001
:)
My result
uk19
Basque 0.577071
Chuvash 0.412444
Armenian 0.010475
Nganassan + Dolgan + Yukagir .0.00001

[Pallantides]

Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Danes and Germans

1. Basque 2. Chuvash 3. Armenian 4. Nganassan + Dolgan + Yukagir
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/397/neolithic1.png


Armenian seem to be absent in all the Norwegian and Swedish participants but more frequent in the British and Germans, also one of the Danes have it.

[Grumpy Cat]

My results are in. I got 49% Basque. That was really the only figure I cared about.