Trst je Jugoslavija!

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7453/triestespeech.png

13, Oct 1953 - Marshal Tito addresses crowd in Skopje saying he will send troops into Zone A of Trieste if Italian soldiers enter the territory. He called on the United States and Britain to withdraw their decision to give the territory to Italy.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Free_Territory_of_Trieste_map.png/220px-Free_Territory_of_Trieste_map.png

[Heretik]

Never was and never will be.

[The Ripper]

TR8Dg5EXSJs

[Eldritch]

Marshal Tito addresses crowd in Skopje saying he will send troops into Zone A of Trieste if Italian soldiers enter the territory. He called on the United States and Britain to withdraw their decision to give the territory to Italy.

Which then did not happen. What did happen is that Tito died and Yugoslavia fell apart.

Look, I wish you's tell us what you're trying to say with this thread. That Trieste is rightfully a part of a political entity that no longer exists?

Occupying a city or a territory with troops does not make it "yours".

[Guapo]

Trst was a multi-ethnic "Free Territory" and up for grabs at the time.

[Eldritch]

Trst was a multi-ethnic "Free Territory" and up for grabs at the time.

Yes, I know that. And it's only been considered a part of Italy since WW1 if I'm not mistaken. So sure, it could have ended up being a part of Yugoslavia, but it in fact didn't.

[Guapo]

Yes, I know that. And it's only been considered a part of Italy since WW1 if I'm not mistaken. So sure, it could have ended up being a part of Yugoslavia, but it in fact didn't.

Maybe, but those territorial fights are ancient history now (even WW2).

[Eldritch]

Maybe, but those territorial fights are ancient history now (even WW2).

Indeed, which is why I'd like some clarification from Vo's part as to what the point of all this actually is.

[The Ripper]

Indeed, which is why I'd like some clarification from Vo's part as to what the point of all this actually is.

Its a valid question but one that could be asked in every one of his threads. :coffee:

[Heretik]

Indeed, which is why I'd like some clarification from Vo's part as to what the point of all this actually is.

I don't think he knows the answer to that question. He's just trying to convince people yugoslavia was a great, strong country and that we all should just get along.

[Eldritch]

He's just trying to convince people yugoslavia was a great, strong country ...

Well, at its peak I'm sure it was, at least compared to less great and strong counties.

[Radojica]

I think I am going to shit, I am full of this crap :coffee:

[Heretik]

Well, at its peak I'm sure it was, at least compared to less great and strong counties.

Your logic is impeccable. :D :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

I don't think he knows the answer to that question. He's just trying to convince people yugoslavia was a great, strong country and that we all should just get along.

So, the fact of Yugoslavia being the third strongest military power in Europe (after the UK and USSR) and the fourth strongest military power in the world (after the USA, UK and USSR) was bullcrap? :coffee:

Mind you, that means Yugoslavia was stronger than Spain, Italy, Balkanized Germany, France, etc...

[Radojica]

So, the fact of Yugoslavia being the third strongest military power in Europe (after the UK and USSR) and the fourth strongest military power in the world (after the USA, UK and USSR) was bullcrap? :coffee:

Mind you, that means Yugoslavia was stronger than Spain, Italy, Balkanized Germany, France, etc...

Mind you that all that weaponry was used in the greatest destruction and killing in 4 years old war on European soil after WWII.


Odjebi JNA
Dao sam ti jednu dobru godinu života, najbolju možda.
Veliki vračevi medicine rascjepe grudi kao naranču i spuste novo srce u njih, pažljivo, rastvorenih šaka kao da vraćaju vrapčića u gnjezdo, razdvoje skalpelom;svjetlo od
tame u mutnom jezgru zjenice;bajaju,pokrenu nepokretno,čudotvore
nad ljudima;pa opet....Ni oni nemogu da mi vrate moju otrgnutu devetnaestu godinu.
Nikad više.
Ali, proklet da sam, ja sam barem imao dvadesetu i dvadesetprvu, i još neke dvadesete i tridesete, za razliku od dječaka na čije crno uokvirene fotografije svakog dana nailazim na posljednjim stranicama štampe. Oni ostadoše u devetnaestoj, zaljubljeni, zaigrani, zbunjeni, ne dospjevši da svoje olovne vojnike odvoje od olovnih zrna, podmetnutih im u džepove tako bezbožnički.
Ne brate Kaine, ne zovi me u polje;ne mami me da zalud prošetamo minskim poljem moj grešni sivomaslinasti brate;poturi nekog drugug dobrovoljca na branike svoje neprilagođenosti i nesposobnosti, okači neku drugu metu na svoje kartonske bedeme.
Nema mojih u ovom ratu naših. Znam ne može to tek tako...čičak izdaje, kači se ove jeseni na sve strane, i meni će ga već neki mangup priljepiti na leđa, onako u prolazu, sve tapšući me po ramenu prijateljski.
Razmišljao sam o tome koga izdati kad mi ostane da biram između nas dvoje: žalim, ali prestar sam da bih izdao sebe još jednom.
Odjebi JNA. Dosta je bilo!
Djordje Balasevicbzt3zsRNsK0


:mad:

[Heretik]

So, the fact of Yugoslavia being the third strongest military power in Europe (after the UK and USSR) and the fourth strongest military power in the world (after the USA, UK and USSR) was bullcrap? :coffee:


Yes, that was total bullshit. I see their propaganda machinery works even today.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes, that was total bullshit. I see their propaganda machinery works even today.

Excellent rebuttal my good sire. I guess it was all bullshit when Yugoslavia had one of the largest and modern land force in Europe. The air force thing must be a myth too when for its time it had over 1,000 aircraft (second largest air force in Europe) which were made up of modern equipment. The only thing I would agree with you is its navy which was never strong nor large because Yugoslavia prioritized land and air forces. :coffee:

[Heretik]

As long as you use wikipedia as your source of information we have nothing to discuss about. But hell, I'll let myself get pulled into this one...
1000 aircrafts? Most of them were yugo made aircrafts with low maneuverability, low speed and low quality. Further, about ten squadrons were made of MiG-21 which were already pretty obsolete in the early 80's since a large number of those was produced in the 50's.
About the ground forces: a large number of reservist, poorly trained and equipped, obsolete tanks (soviet T55's made in late 40's and some M84s)... How is that superpowerful?
I could agree with you that JNA was maybe one of Europe's top forces in the 50's but later on JNA stopped / slowed down with modernization and the fairytale of "Europe's third most powerful army" came to a brutal end at the end of the 80's - beginning of the 90's with war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
You seem to intentionally misinterpret quantity for quality.

http://www.inet.hr/~deantolo/Slike/Groblje%20oklopa/velike/m84-38.jpg

http://www.inet.hr/~deantolo/Slike/Groblje%20oklopa/velike/t55hul.jpg

apiwbm1aFTI
^ Mighty JNA G-2

[poiuytrewq0987]

You do realize that as you insult Yugoslavia you are also insulting the Croatians because they too were involved with the unification idea.


As long as you use wikipedia as your source of information we have nothing to discuss about. But hell, I'll let myself get pulled into this one...

Oh the good old wikipedia insult, you're real original my friend. I guess you also insult people who use dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc...?


1000 aircrafts? Most of them were yugo made aircrafts with low maneuverability, low speed and low quality. Further, about ten squadrons were made of MiG-21 which were already pretty obsolete in the early 80's since a large number of those was produced in the 50's.All we have your word and we all know how unbiased it is, of course. The MiGs were going to be replaced with Novi Avion but stupid tribal nationalists like you broke up Yugoslavia before Yugoslavia could see military upgrades to bring it to modern standards of its time. I still think it's pretty funny that with all the furor of Croatian tribal nationalists you continued the development of M-95, the tank that was supposed to replace the M-84 like how T-90s replaced T-72s.


About the ground forces: a large number of reservist, poorly trained and equipped, obsolete tanks (soviet T55's made in late 40's and some M84s)... How is that superpowerful?Firstly, the T-55s are not entirely useless as they still could be used to combat IFVs and APCs and I'd imagine that those class of vehicles would have a hard time against such tanks. Secondly, the M-84 were not far and few as they were the second numerous in the JNA as an estimated 450 M-84s were in service.


I could agree with you that JNA was maybe one of Europe's top forces in the 50's but later on JNA stopped / slowed down with modernization and the fairytale of "Europe's third most powerful army" came to a brutal end at the end of the 80's - beginning of the 90's with war in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.That's not quite correct as the JNA was still a powerful force until the mid-70s when the next generation of air superiority fighters was starting to be rolled out.


You seem to intentionally misinterpret quantity for quality.

http://www.inet.hr/%7Edeantolo/Slike/Groblje%20oklopa/velike/m84-38.jpg

http://www.inet.hr/%7Edeantolo/Slike/Groblje%20oklopa/velike/t55hul.jpgFunny you should say that I misinterpret because the pictures you posted could be interpreted in many ways.


apiwbm1aFTI
^ Mighty JNA G-2Congrats on the SAMs doing their job?

[Heretik]

You do realize that as you insult Yugoslavia you are also insulting the Croatians because they too were involved with the unification idea.


What a disgusting demagogue you are. Incredible.


Oh the good old wikipedia insult, you're real original my friend. I guess you also insult people who use dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc...?

It's not an insult, you almost copy pasted facts from the article about JNA.


All we have your word and we all know how unbiased it is, of course. The MiGs were going to be replaced with Novi Avion but stupid tribal nationalists like you broke up Yugoslavia before Yugoslavia could see military upgrades to bring it to modern standards of its time.

Should've, could've, would've... I broke up yugoslavia? Wow! Good on me then!


I still think it's pretty funny that with all the furor of Croatian tribal nationalists you continued the development of M-95, the tank that was supposed to replace the M-84 like how T-90s replaced T-72s.

What? Further development of tanks in Croatia is on hold or completely stopped.


Firstly, the T-55s are not entirely useless as they still could be used to combat IFVs and APCs and I'd imagine that those class of vehicles would have a hard time against such tanks.

Tanks used as APCs? :confused: Especially tanks vulnerable to simple infantry anti-tank weapons / old type RPGs, obsolete AT land mines.


Funny you should say that I misinterpret because the pictures you posted could be interpreted in many ways.

First picture is M-84 destroyed in Croatia on Trpinjska cesta (also known as "Tank cemetary"). Second is a T-55 but i don't know where the picture was taken.


Congrats on the SAMs doing their job?

SAM? Those were shot down by an AA gun.

BTW. Were you even born in yugoslavia?

[poiuytrewq0987]

What a disgusting demagogue you are. Incredible.


I know it's a shocker for you that there were Croatians who supported Yugoslavia. The whole Croatian spring thing was largely supported by students who were still in school... :coffee: You should be thankful of Tito for incorporating Croatia into Yugoslavia otherwise Croatia would've just ended up paying reparations and made territorial concessions for the Ustase crimes. Even Bulgaria and Hungary had to pay Yugoslavia reparations for invading our country.




It's not an insult, you almost copy pasted facts from the article about JNA.


They are facts.


Should've, could've, would've... I broke up yugoslavia? Wow! Good on me then!

Things that would've happened had Yugoslavia not broken up. I'm not sure where you see they are invalid because the events that were supposed to happen but did not because Yugoslavia broke up before they could happen.


What? Further development of tanks in Croatia is on hold or completely stopped.
I believe the Croatian government already ordered a bunch of Degmans but they've not decided on when to build 'em.


Tanks used as APCs? :confused: Especially tanks vulnerable to simple infantry anti-tank weapons / old type RPGs, obsolete AT land mines.
Yeah, they'd be pretty impractical but not useless if they were used in a total war where losing is not an option.


First picture is M-84 destroyed in Croatia on Trpinjska cesta (also known as "Tank cemetary"). Second is a T-55 but i don't know where the picture was taken.
Regardless, the M-84 was of superior quality compared to a M-60 or a T-72. It was one of the best until the next generation of tanks began to roll out such as the M1A2 or the T-90. Even the legendary M1A2 is not invincible. It's foolish to think a tank is completely impenetrable.

http://www.g2mil.com/M1A2destroyed.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/AbramsLost-1991.JPG


SAM? Those were shot down by an AA gun.The video description said the G-2s were shot down by SAMs.


BTW. Were you even born in yugoslavia?Yes, so do not concern yourself with this trivial matter.

[Heretik]

I know it's a shocker for you that there were Croatians who supported Yugoslavia. The whole Croatian spring thing was largely supported by students who were still in school... :coffee:

Do you even know what "Croatian spring" was about or just writing random things?


You should be thankful of Tito for incorporating Croatia into Yugoslavia otherwise Croatia would've just ended up paying reparations and made territorial concessions for the Ustase crimes. Even Bulgaria and Hungary had to pay Yugoslavia reparations for invading our country.

I understand your country wouldn't even exist if there wasn't for Tito, so we can say I understand you, but stop convincing people yugoslavia was a sort of paradise on earth when it' was clearly not. If it was it wouldn't break up, especially in the manner it happened.


I believe the Croatian government already ordered a bunch of Degmans but they've not decided on when to build 'em.

You believe wrong. Some prototypes were made and the production stopped indefinitely.


Yeah, they'd be pretty impractical but not useless if they were used in a total war where losing is not an option.

Not useless - good for target practice, I agree. They are even used today for that purpose.


Regardless, the M-84 was of superior quality compared to a M-60 or a T-72. It was one of the best until the next generation of tanks began to roll out such as the M1A2 or the T-90.

It was the best until something better came? No shit?


The video description said the G-2s were shot down by SAMs.

Do you see a SAM somewhere or do you see a tracer and hear MG/AA fire?



Yes, so do not concern yourself with this trivial matter.
And you lived for how long in it? 2 years? 3 years?

[poiuytrewq0987]

I understand your country wouldn't even exist if there wasn't for Tito, so we can say I understand you, but stop convincing people yugoslavia was a sort of paradise on earth when it' was clearly not. If it was it wouldn't break up, especially in the manner it happened.

Hm, I believe Serbia existed long ago before the founding of South Slavia. And in that manner, I am not portraying that Yugoslavia was a paradise on earth as you bluntly put it. But it was during the Yugoslavian era, the South Slavic countries was truly independent from foreign interference.

The only reason why the first Yugoslavia, the monarchist Yugoslavia was even formed was because the Croats and the Serbs wanted a Yugoslavia. If the Croats weren't for a Yugoslavia and instead lobbied the Allied powers for an independent Croatia then there would've been no Yugoslavia. But no, that didn't happen, we saw the formation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which was supposed to be similar to the unification of the German peoples and the unification of the Italian peoples.

You have to ask yourself why the Croats in the past lobbied for a Yugoslavia instead of an independent Croatia. Did they lobby for a Yugoslavia over an independent Croatia because they wanted to betray their brothers-in-arms and sell the country to the Serbs? No, that's not why. But rather they realized that a nation-state of Croatia was not viable because such entity would not be sufficiently strong to defend herself from stronger powers, and my friend, the powers who had the capability to overwhelm Croatia were not few in numbers.

Today Croatia is able to exist as an independent entity solely because Europe today is controlled by only one power, NATO. Should the NATO reach its demise then do expect Europe to return to the period of empires where territorial changes were common and weak countries were often annexed by stronger, foreign ones.




It was the best until something better came? No shit?

Don't misquote me. I said one of the best, not the best.


Do you see a SAM somewhere or do you see a tracer and hear MG/AA fire?
Just saying what the description said.

[Heretik]

Hm, I believe Serbia existed long ago before the founding of South Slavia. And in that manner, I am not portraying that Yugoslavia was a paradise on earth as you bluntly put it. But it was during the Yugoslavian era, the South Slavic countries was truly independent from foreign interference.

Aren't you macedonian? If not, my apologies.


The only reason why the first Yugoslavia, the monarchist Yugoslavia was even formed was because the Croats and the Serbs wanted a Yugoslavia. If the Croats weren't for a Yugoslavia and instead lobbied the Allied powers for an independent Croatia then there would've been no Yugoslavia. But no, that didn't happen, we saw the formation of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia which was supposed to be similar to the unification of the German peoples and the unification of the Italian peoples.

You have to ask yourself why the Croats in the past lobbied for a Yugoslavia instead of an independent Croatia. Did they lobby for a Yugoslavia over an independent Croatia because they wanted to betray their brothers-in-arms and sell the country to the Serbs? No, that's not why. But rather they realized that a nation-state of Croatia was not viable because such entity would not be sufficiently strong to defend herself from from stronger powers, and my friend, the powers who had the capability to overwhelm Croatia were not few in numbers.

Leaders of that time didn't have a broader aspect of what will happen in the near future and thus, under oppression of serbian monarchism / imperialism, came the WW2 where Croats picked the side which gave us independence of some sort. During that period of time, attrocities happened (I do not deny that) which could've been prevented if there was no unification before that in which one nation was oppressed by the other causing revanchism in later events. Unification of south slavic people was one of the worst ideas of the 20th century ie we could've helped each other as independent states and in that order a lot of shit that has happened in the last 100 years would've been prevented.


Today Croatia is able to exist as an independent entity solely because Europe today is controlled by only one power, NATO. Should the NATO reach its demise then do expect Europe to return to the period of empires where territorial changes were common and weak countries were often annexed by stronger, foreign ones.

Croatia is able to exist because we fought for our freedom and not because of NATO controlling everything . Neither Serbia nor Croatia were members of NATO during the war (not saying that we or serbs weren't helped by foreign forces).

This discussion is leading nowhere so:
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/outta.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Aren't you macedonian? If not, my apologies.

Well, I was born in the region that is now called Macedonia but I am ethnic Serb from Kumanovo. I don't really care for the country, it can go on with the Alexander worship separate from Serbia. :coffee:


Leaders of that time didn't have a broader aspect of what will happen in the near future and thus, under oppression of serbian monarchism / imperialism, came the WW2 where Croats picked the side which gave us independence of some sort. During that period of time, attrocities happened (I do not deny that) which could've been prevented if there was no unification before that in which one nation was oppressed by the other causing revanchism in later events. Unification of south slavic people was one of the worst ideas of the 20th century ie we could've helped each other as independent states and in that order a lot of shit that has happened in the last 100 years would've been prevented. I can see where you're coming from. A sort of a Balkan entente. We had this one time in the First Balkan War when the independent Balkan states formed the League allied against the Ottoman Empire. But such alliances are fickle as was proven when the Second Balkan War started and the League was broken apart. However what puzzles me is why you don't want to see similar peoples unified into a single nation that would fight for our own self-determination and independence from non-South Slavs. The Germans have done this many times. The Holy Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire), The German Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation) and later the Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia) Prussia formed.

I also dislike how the Serbian monarchy handled the first Yugoslavia, especially by the cunt of a king, Alexander I. I believe that the choice was wrong. We should've saw the formation of a republican Yugoslavia instead of a constitutional monarchy which later transformed into a dictatorship under Alexander I. Not that we had much choice back then anyhow since accepting a Yugoslavia led by a Serbian monarch was pretty much the only option the leader of Serbia that time would find acceptable if it were to join in such union. So, in a way, Yugoslavia was doomed to fail from the very beginning.

[Heretik]

Well, I was born in the region that is now called Macedonia but I am ethnic Serb from Kumanovo. I don't really care for the country, it can go on with the Alexander worship separate from Serbia. :coffee:

I see, I thought you were macedonian.


I can see where you're coming from. A sort of a Balkan entente. We had this one time in the First Balkan War when the independent Balkan states formed the League allied against the Ottoman Empire. But such alliances are fickle as was proven when the Second Balkan War started and the League was broken apart. However what puzzles me is why you don't want to see similar peoples unified into a single nation that would fight for our own self-determination and independence from non-South Slavs.

A fight that would end up far better if we all had independent states bound by friendship. Imagine 50 years of independence, no 1990's wars in ex-yu countries... I think we would all be better if we started as independent countries with friendly relations with neighbouring countries/nations. How much bloodshed would be avoided, starting with WW2 war crimes, communist retaliation after WW2 and the recent bloodshed. Animosity between two largest slavic nations (Croats - Serbs) would be small or non-existent thus securing political stability in the region. And all that because we avoided a melting-pot called yugoslavia.


So, in a way, Yugoslavia was doomed to fail from the very beginning.

Exactly. Too much imperialism always self-implodes either in the manner we saw here or as we can still see in all of European ex-imperialist countries today having troubles with a lot of immigration (i.e. from ex colonies - France, UK or from).

[Guapo]

Holy fuck, the owl is alive.

[Heretik]

Feel free to contribute on the OWL APPRECIATION THREAD you troll you. :D

[Radojica]

I understand your country wouldn't even exist if there wasn't for Tito, so we can say I understand you, but stop convincing people yugoslavia was a sort of paradise on earth when it' was clearly not. If it was it wouldn't break up, especially in the manner it happened.


What kind of bullshit is this? Are you drunk, or high, what's this suppose to mean?

[Heretik]

:crazy: :crazy:

Read the posts before you get a nervous breakdown. :P

[Radojica]

:crazy: :crazy:

Read the posts before you get a nervous breakdown. :P

You cannot get something you already have, hello :crazy:

[Heretik]

OK, shit... Read the posts before you get a heart attack. :D

[Radojica]

OK, shit... Read the posts before you get a heart attack. :D

But, but, but, I am heartless Serbian :(

[Heretik]

Owls or gtfo.

[Guapo]

Mkay

http://cbskroq.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/alisonw.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Kosovija je Jugoslawien.

http://torontoist.com/attachments/toronto_david/2008_02_23kosovoprotest_5.jpg

Yugoslavia = Serb-made republika

up with Princunt Aleksander of teh Sex-u-slaves

[Adrian]

Well, I was born in the region that is now called Macedonia but I am ethnic Serb from Kumanovo. I don't really care for the country, it can go on with the Alexander worship separate from Serbia. :coffee:

Why I am not surprised? :coffee:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Why I am not surprised? :coffee:

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/4/27/157a8181-aaac-41fb-a3ab-e0989dd688f8.jpg

[Flintlocke]

Onore a Trieste! communist bastards only took advantage of a defeated Italy to kill, rape, and destroy. The multicultural red bandits destroyed a proud people.