Parents won't have wealth to pass on, report

[The Lawspeaker]

Parents won't have wealth to pass on, report (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8010896/Parents-wont-have-wealth-to-pass-on-report.html)
Future generations should not expect to inherit wealth from their parents following the ravages of the worst financial crisis since the 1930s, a new report has warned.

Of 6,010 Europeans questioned, just 10pc said they were actively intending to pass on "significant wealth" to their children, according to a survey of consumer finances by Janus Capital Group.

A further 42pc said they had no intention of doing so, while the remaining 48pc said they were unsure.

The survey claimed the financial crisis has produced a generation of under-saving, risk-averse Europeans, which will challenge the future of "inter-generational wealth transfer".

The responses of adults from the UK, France, Germany, Holland, Spain and Italy, showed the financial crisis has "fundamentally challenged the norms of financial wellbeing", according to Ric Van Weelden, head of Janus Capital's European business.

"Specifically, the report highlights how few Europeans are likely to have made adequate provision for their retirement, let alone passing on wealth to the next generation. The financial services industry will have a very different landscape to serve going forward," he said.

Many who were relying upon returns from their long-term investments for later life and to pass down as inheritance have seen values wiped out, and extended life expectancy is placing additional pressure on finances.

Of the six nations that took part in the survey, French respondents were most likely to pass on wealth, while their Spanish and German counterparts were the least likely.

In the UK, 16pc said they intended to pass on significant wealth to their children, 44pc said they had no intention and the remainder said they were unsure.

David Bowers, of Absolute Strategy Research, which carried out the survey for Janus Capital, said: "Inter-generational wealth transfer is something we have taken for granted.

"This is one generation when it may not happen as smoothly."

The report said that at present in the UK, the average estate is worth £90,000 and divided five ways, but Janus Capital said that is likely to change, with those aged 45 to 54 unable or unwilling to save sufficiently.

"The financial crisis has exacerbated a tendency to under-save and to be risk averse.

"Europe's working population has yet to wake up to the fact that it will not be able to retire as early as it would like, and indeed may have to work a lot longer," Mr Bowers said.

[Alison]

My mum thought she had adequately provided, through savings, investments and policies, for her retirement and her children. She finds herself in a position where she simply cannot make ends meet, and despite her embarrassment, we, her children, help her out financially.

I don't really see the point in people planning for their childrens futures. After all, by the time a person dies from natural causes, the children should be making their own way.

[Austin]

The West won't last in it's current state in respect to it's coveted middle class populations that have previously been the envy of the world.

In the U.S. there are already surpluses in the millions of twenty somethings with graduate degrees or higher with no job to go to for the simple fact that the middle class in the West is not growing but instead dwindling. You add to that reality the fact that there are twelve million plus illegal aliens competing for lower/medium end jobs who will work harder and longer and for less. Add to those two realities the third fact that there are now several million skilled/experienced 30-55 year old's who are now unemployed and looking for work at reduced wages/benefits. Only then do you begin to realize the severity of the looming internal plunge so to speak.

Only way to get a decent job after college now is to have connections or have -flawless- grades and even that won't boost you much due to there being so many graduates that every other one seems to have flawless grades it seems.

[SwordoftheVistula]

The West won't last in it's current state in respect to it's coveted middle class populations that have previously been the envy of the world.

In the U.S. there are already surpluses in the millions of twenty somethings with graduate degrees or higher with no job to go to for the simple fact that the middle class in the West is not growing but instead dwindling. You add to that reality the fact that there are twelve million plus illegal aliens competing for lower/medium end jobs who will work harder and longer and for less. Add to those two realities the third fact that there are now several million skilled/experienced 30-55 year old's who are now unemployed and looking for work at reduced wages/benefits. Only then do you begin to realize the severity of the looming internal plunge so to speak.

Only way to get a decent job after college now is to have connections or have -flawless- grades and even that won't boost you much due to there being so many graduates that every other one seems to have flawless grades it seems.

Very true. I think the 'Tea Party' is the political fightback of this middle class which is being eliminated. If that fails to take power, there will be fightback by other means.

[Debaser11]

Only way to get a decent job after college now is to have connections or have -flawless- grades and even that won't boost you much due to there being so many graduates that every other one seems to have flawless grades it seems.

Boy, do I know this. I used to teach English abroad. I get calls and emails all time from people (college grads) wanting to do the same. The pay is actually better and the jobs over there require MUCH less work. Teaching in a place like Korea or Japan used to seem insane to an American. Not anymore. And it's not simply just because Americans are more open and liberal "to other cultures and stuff" now.

[Austin]

Very true. I think the 'Tea Party' is the political fightback of this middle class which is being eliminated. If that fails to take power, there will be fightback by other means.

Well I think it is also more the fact that the people who had kids in the 80's and 90's are now realizing "oh my god we just spent 40k on his/her education and now he/she might go 4-5 years without a decent paying job". It is the parents, the aging middle class that remains that is really going to suffer financially let alone the middle class that never was/will be. The parents just invested tons of money into educating their children and now they tell them to live at home and save rather than move out and bomb financially, times have changed big time.

Most college grads just live with their parents because you can't pay rent/food/gas/insurance/other costs and live a middle class lifestyle with a low end job. Live with parents in their nice middle class world or live in a hell hole and barely get by......hmmmmmmm what do you think most choose to do lol........., considering the norms of most middle-class families. Hence the costs are passed on to their parents who suffer more and more.

Out of my friends I tried to think and none but three live on their own and they don't even pay for their living costs their parents do. Most my friends my age still live at home and just save their money and party. It is amazing how different my generation actually is when I really think about it compared to my parents generation. It isn't as if my gen has much choice though the jobs just aren't there as they were for our parents in large part. I don't think any comparison can really be made the times are very different not just economically but culturally as well.

[Alison]

The West won't last in it's current state in respect to it's coveted middle class populations that have previously been the envy of the world.

In the U.S. there are already surpluses in the millions of twenty somethings with graduate degrees or higher with no job to go to for the simple fact that the middle class in the West is not growing but instead dwindling. You add to that reality the fact that there are twelve million plus illegal aliens competing for lower/medium end jobs who will work harder and longer and for less. Add to those two realities the third fact that there are now several million skilled/experienced 30-55 year old's who are now unemployed and looking for work at reduced wages/benefits. Only then do you begin to realize the severity of the looming internal plunge so to speak.

Only way to get a decent job after college now is to have connections or have -flawless- grades and even that won't boost you much due to there being so many graduates that every other one seems to have flawless grades it seems.

Perhaps the expectations of the youth in the US is too high? If the immigrants are prepared to work longer hours for less pay, then obviously they will get the jobs.

If there are no jobs, why not start your own business? Lots of people start with very little, and build up.

That is true strength of character - not relying on parents to help out, but doing it yourself. Far more satisfying too.

[Austin]

Perhaps the expectations of the youth in the US is too high? If the immigrants are prepared to work longer hours for less pay, then obviously they will get the jobs.

If there are no jobs, why not start your own business? Lots of people start with very little, and build up.

That is true strength of character - not relying on parents to help out, but doing it yourself. Far more satisfying too.

Yeah that's great and all and I'm all for that. Some do that to some extent who can but you have to keep in mind these are middle class youth who largely never had a hard day in their life. Most have been in school for a solid 20 years with everything being prepaid at the desk or over the phone by their parents. Most have had only a few low end jobs here and there in between and many haven't even had a job yet in their entire life, believe it or not such individuals do exist in amazing numbers. They grew up on the story that they would get a 40k a year office job after partying and going to college as their parents did. They have no people skills, they can't talk on the phone with confidence or at all, they can't take criticism very well. They have no sense of saving at all because they never had to save or think of money so there is no sense of little everyday costs adding up.

You can't take someone like that and say go start a company or go compete with the works ten hours a day Mexican illegal immigrant who speaks Spanish to do construction work or whatever. It is like telling a fish to go live on land it won't happen and if it does the fish will die anyways. I've seen what happens when a middle class youth is given the cold turkey by their parents and thrown out there. They bomb completely financially and mess up their lives so horrendously that there parents come in and eat their costs and lose a ton of money in the process. (Remember middle-upper class children have been heavily invested in, one does not want to see their investment crash)

[Alison]

Gosh, Austin, that is scary. Methnks it's time for middle-class America to change their attitudes. That is BAD parenting. You raise your child to be independent and responsible. That's if you love them enough. Love is not about giving children what they want; allowing them to do what they want. Loving your children means disciplining them, giving them what they need, not want, and encouraging them to find their own way.

[Curtis24]

Keep in mind part of it is that the Baby-Boomer generation still owns most of the wealth in the country. I'm not excusing the behavior of many of the Millenial Generation(and I put myself in that category, still being supported by my parents), but there are larger economic forces at work creating this.

[Austin]

Gosh, Austin, that is scary. Methnks it's time for middle-class America to change their attitudes. That is BAD parenting. You raise your child to be independent and responsible. That's if you love them enough. Love is not about giving children what they want; allowing them to do what they want. Loving your children means disciplining them, giving them what they need, not want, and encouraging them to find their own way.

It isn't a fair comparison at all. All our parents lived in times of massive middle class growth both economically and numerically in terms of people. Their children do not live in such times. When our parents look out the window they see (or convince themselves) that they see the world they grew up in. Whereas when we look out the window and go into that world for jobs we see the world they once existed in having largely disappeared. The success stories we grew up on no longer can come to fruition as the world in which those stories came true no longer exists and hasn't for some time. God forbid you try and tell that to the 40+ crowd who have cushy 75-100K+benefits jobs who are set for life from the old days. That world is gone both economically and population wise and telling the younger generation about such days of bounty is unfair and dishonest in respect to what they will be going into and dealing with.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Out of my friends I tried to think and none but three live on their own and they don't even pay for their living costs their parents do.

About the same here, I'm one of the very few people I know born after the mid 70s who lives on my own without parental support amongst the people I know, aside from some people in the military.


Perhaps the expectations of the youth in the US is too high? If the immigrants are prepared to work longer hours for less pay, then obviously they will get the jobs.

Also, the immigrants are connected to networks which will find them cash under the table (off the record) jobs which will allow them to earn money without paying taxes, and qualify for welfare in addition to that. Also, immigrants are willing to keep expenses down by living 10-20 people in a single family home, and also to have children while living in such conditions (which qualifies them for much more government programs).


If there are no jobs, why not start your own business?

With what money? There's lots of programs to help minorities & immigrants with starting businesses, but unless you have family money to help you, the average white person can forget about it. Also the current economic and regulatory climate is not conducive to starting businesses in general.


Lots of people start with very little, and build up.

They did in the past, in different economic conditions.

Also, don't forget that the 'economic crisis' was caused by programs to boost the value of housing (owned by baby boomers through WWII generation) to fund their retirements, with the 'side effect' of making housing prohibitively expensive to anyone of moderate income trying to purchase a house on their own without some sort of governmental assistance.

[Alison]

It isn't a fair comparison at all. All our parents lived in times of massive middle class growth both economically and numerically in terms of people. Their children do not live in such times. When our parents look out the window they see (or convince themselves) that they see the world they grew up in. Whereas when we look out the window and go into that world for jobs we see the world they once existed in having largely disappeared. The success stories we grew up on no longer can come to fruition as the world in which those stories came true no longer exists and hasn't for some time. God forbid you try and tell that to the 40+ crowd who have cushy 75-100K+benefits jobs who are set for life from the old days. That world is gone both economically and population wise and telling the younger generation about such days of bounty is unfair and dishonest in respect to what they will be going into and dealing with.

This is just my point, Austin. Change is inevitable, and the way you adapt to situations is largely due to how you were raised and taught. Those 40+ year olds have done the youth a great dis-service, IMO.

I just hope that you youngsters, the future, will rise up and face the challenges, and prove yourselves. Good luck. :)

[Alison]

About the same here, I'm one of the very few people I know born after the mid 70s who lives on my own without parental support amongst the people I know, aside from some people in the military.



Also, the immigrants are connected to networks which will find them cash under the table (off the record) jobs which will allow them to earn money without paying taxes, and qualify for welfare in addition to that. Also, immigrants are willing to keep expenses down by living 10-20 people in a single family home, and also to have children while living in such conditions (which qualifies them for much more government programs).



With what money? There's lots of programs to help minorities & immigrants with starting businesses, but unless you have family money to help you, the average white person can forget about it. Also the current economic and regulatory climate is not conducive to starting businesses in general.



They did in the past, in different economic conditions.

Also, don't forget that the 'economic crisis' was caused by programs to boost the value of housing (owned by baby boomers through WWII generation) to fund their retirements, with the 'side effect' of making housing prohibitively expensive to anyone of moderate income trying to purchase a house on their own without some sort of governmental assistance.



Thanks for this, SotV. It's good for me to find out what is happening in other parts of the world. Your points are all valid, except, IMO, for this:

[QUOTE] Also the current economic and regulatory climate is not conducive to starting businesses in general. [QUOTE/]

The best time to start a business is when things are tough. When others are throwing in the towel, and bemoaning their fate, that's when you jump in feet first, even on a tiny scale. Use what you have.

[Austin]

In all honesty I'd rather see the system collapse entirely. I don't see me or most my generation gaining anything out of this current economic reality which is basically a bunch of people 45 and older holding up a dying middle class that isn't being renewed. I'd rather it all go straight to hell and with the roll of the dice maybe whatever came after it me and those like me would be better off in.

[Alison]

It's up to you and your peers then, Austin. It seems that it's already gone skywards. In a way, it's exciting times for you guys. You can be pioneers in a sense. Economic pioneers. Just remember the basics. Pass on wisdom to your children; don't throw wealth at them. :)

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Gosh, Austin, that is scary. Methnks it's time for middle-class America to change their attitudes. That is BAD parenting. You raise your child to be independent and responsible. That's if you love them enough. Love is not about giving children what they want; allowing them to do what they want. Loving your children means disciplining them, giving them what they need, not want, and encouraging them to find their own way.

Love = spanking your kids to keep them in line for the future, and screw the law

[Smaland]

1) Americans should not have to compete with illegal aliens for jobs. They are criminals and invaders; therefore, they should be arrested, put into (humane) prison camps, and sent home as soon as possible. If this were done, the construction jobs and low-end clerical jobs that would open up could be something of a social safety net for unemployed Americans. As things are, there are many jobless people who can't even find a space in a homeless shelter, and so they end up living in tent cities.

2) Sometimes, a member of the ruling class will say something to the effect that illegals will do jobs that Americans won't. The not-so-veiled implication is that Americans are lazy; we won't take a job unless it pays at least $100K, and all we have to do is sit on the front porch and drink mint juleps all day.

I'm not one of those people. If I were 30-35 years younger and in good enough shape, I'd a take a construction job where I routinely had to lift weights of 50 lbs. or even more. As it is, I would immediately take one of the low-end clerical jobs I mentioned above. They don't pay much above a survival wage, but many homeless people would be happy to have it.

[Austin]

People just don't understand who have a cushioned 9-5 air-conditioned office job what it is like being in the entry-level workforce today.

If you have a graduate degree and walk into a 10$ an hour place they will interview you as if you are crazy and delusional. Why hire a person with a graduate degree when they can hire one of the 20+ applicants who has no degree and little expectations or desires?

Minorities, individuals who messed up their lives completely, dropouts, all those people are more appealing to a societal joke job because none of those people have any real future expectations hence the company can work them like a dog every week and treat them as such and they will still have a smile on their face at the end of the day. A degree HURTS you in many respects when you are applying for low end jobs. There are masses of uneducated people who want that job and will slave for it. You officially will never be able to compete with those people in the eyes of a company who has slaving short-term efficiency in its sights.

It is a fallacy that middle-upper class offspring can somehow "merge" or temporarily exist among the lower class. It cannot happen on a realistic level. All that go out and make a company stuff is nonsense nobody has any money for that and banks aren't making loans unless you have years of positive revenue/income streams.

The year I graduated college I needed a new job and the first place I went into for an interview was an entry level pharmacy job that paid like 8-10 an hour. The guy at the end of the interview was like "uh well yeah I just interviewed twelve people today and your the only one with a degree..... I can try and refer you to blah blah blah in our corporate office they might have something for you" and that was the end of that interview. Didn't get it. It dawned on me much later that what the guy was really saying when he said that was "you are nuts you have a degree this job isn't for you but here is some token corporate whatever blah blah blah's name" That is the reality. You can't compete for lower end jobs with a degree you are too much baggage to the employer they want someone from the lower class who has no interests.

[Osweo]

My Dad's definitely gunna have nowt left for me.

All down to things like these;
http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/2007/08/porsche-cayman-s-design.jpg
http://www.hierographics.co.uk/portfolio/images/seychelles-travel-brochure1.jpg
http://womenonthefence.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pyzamGoldDigger.jpg

Once I realised it finally, it was actually an immense relief; no need to suck up to him any more. The old goat is now in a position to benefit from knowing exactly what I think of him. ;)

[Sigara]

Western European countries have become absolutely obsessed with vicious taxation as if anyone who has built a good standard of living for themselves is evil and must be stripped of it. While on the other hand some scum bag who hasn't ever done a days work in his life is handed it all on a plate.

[Austin]

My Dad's definitely gunna have nowt left for me.

All down to things like these;
http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/2007/08/porsche-cayman-s-design.jpg
http://www.hierographics.co.uk/portfolio/images/seychelles-travel-brochure1.jpg
http://womenonthefence.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/pyzamGoldDigger.jpg

Once I realised it finally, it was actually an immense relief; no need to suck up to him any more. The old goat is now in a position to benefit from knowing exactly what I think of him. ;)

You have that car??

[Osweo]

You have that car??

Christ, no! Read it again; Dad spent my inheritance on it for himself. You know, mid-life crisis, etc. :D

[Austin]

Christ, no! Read it again; Dad spent my inheritance on it for himself. You know, mid-life crisis, etc. :D

Oh but man you could still drive it!! If I had that car wow I'd never need a girlfriend again lol :D

[Osweo]

Oh but man you could still drive it!! If I had that car wow I'd never need a girlfriend again lol :D

:D I can drive it if I want. Would you believe I don't actually care to? :p Life's tough, Austin; the wrong people get the wrong dads...

[Austin]

:D I can drive it if I want. Would you believe I don't actually care to? :p Life's tough, Austin; the wrong people get the wrong dads...

Ya I guess I'd so never speak to my dad again though lol if he did that I'm the cold unforgiving type.

[Osweo]

Ya I guess I'd so never speak to my dad again though lol if he did that I'm the cold unforgiving type.
Nah, I can see the funny side! It's his money at the end of the day.

Hmm, I looked at the photo again, and probably exaggerated a little. I just put Porsche into google and picked the curviest one. I don't know a thing about the various models, but his is more like this;
http://images.businessweek.com/story/07/popup/1113_porsche_gt2_inline2.jpg

Disgracefully impractical. :rolleyes: I drove today to the tip, to dump some offcuts of plasterboard, and to buy a coffee table. THAT car wouldn't have been much use to me! :D

You might like his last one too;
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/audi/tt/2008/fd/2008_audi_tt_actf34_fd_1_717.jpg:tongue
At least you could squeeze into the back seat in that one.... :rolleyes2:

[Debaser11]

Western European countries have become absolutely obsessed with vicious taxation as if anyone who has built a good standard of living for themselves is evil and must be stripped of it. While on the other hand some scum bag who hasn't ever done a days work in his life is handed it all on a plate.

Western Europe has done everything it can do to kill the family, I'm sorry to say. That's how much liberals love multi-culturalism. They love it so much, they'll kill their own people to satisfy their foreign fetishes or cheap, short-term political goals. :(

[Austin]

Nah, I can see the funny side! It's his money at the end of the day.

Hmm, I looked at the photo again, and probably exaggerated a little. I just put Porsche into google and picked the curviest one. I don't know a thing about the various models, but his is more like this;
http://images.businessweek.com/story/07/popup/1113_porsche_gt2_inline2.jpg

Disgracefully impractical. :rolleyes: I drove today to the tip, to dump some offcuts of plasterboard, and to buy a coffee table. THAT car wouldn't have been much use to me! :D

You might like his last one too;
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/audi/tt/2008/fd/2008_audi_tt_actf34_fd_1_717.jpg:tongue
At least you could squeeze into the back seat in that one.... :rolleyes2:

Yes I have a 4 door sedan, I never understood nor do I still peoples interest in getting a 2 door coup. If you succeed you have nowhere to have fun with her in, the front in a 2 door has the gearshift in the way. I can attest to a 4 door remedying this problem :D

Also in a 2 door everyone knows you are a young immature guy whereas with a 4 door you get to fool em till you start blaring music =)

[Grumpy Cat]

Love = spanking your kids to keep them in line for the future, and screw the law

Yup that's what my parents did.

They also NEVER supported me, I have been working since I was 12 (and it's illegal in Canada to work under 14, so what I was doing when I was 12-14 was I was a very cheap maid, $5 to clean your whole house, think about it now that's so cheap it's illegal - when I was 14 I got my first job at a coffee/donut shop for minimum wage which was $5/hour at the time).

I used to envy my peers when I was younger. They got $20 "allowance" a week for doing chores, I got punished if I didn't do my chores. They got gifts if they made the honour roll at school, some if they even JUST PASSED, I got punished if I didn't. But now, those peers are asking me if I "want fries with that", so I guess I'm grateful.

The only thing my parents did for me was feed me, and bought me clothes, but given my mother's taste in clothes, I wanted a job really bad so I could buy my own (maybe my mother did that on purpose so I would work).

[SwordoftheVistula]

Thanks for this, SotV. It's good for me to find out what is happening in other parts of the world. Your points are all valid, except, IMO, for this:

"Also the current economic and regulatory climate is not conducive to starting businesses in general."

The best time to start a business is when things are tough. When others are throwing in the towel, and bemoaning their fate, that's when you jump in feet first, even on a tiny scale. Use what you have.

It's not just the economy I meant, but the regulatory and tax burden against starting a new business. It's more that the economy is bad because of hurdles in starting or expanding businesses rather than the other way around. This isn't just some business cycle downturn that will turn back up in a couple years, this is a long term fundamental decline which for years has been concealed by artificial prosperity from borrowed money. Also, the powers that be have decided that they don't need or want a large middle class with economic independence at the individual or familial level, since such people are harder to control, so they have undertaken to do what they can to reduce the numbers of this class.

[Grumpy Cat]

Sounds like some of it is excuses, though.

I have my own business on the side and I started out selling stuff out of my dorm room in college and the trunk of my car (and no, it's nothing illegal).

Although it's more of a "do in my spare time" thing. I have a 9-5 job.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Sounds like some of it is excuses, though.

Some of it is. Even when the economy was doing well and 4% unemployment, you'd find people in long term unemployment with lame excuses like "no jobs in my town" or "only jobs around here are in a city 45 mins away" or "that job sucks".

After the latest economic crash though, there's lots of people who are not these type of chronic excuse making people who are out of work.

They're going to have to do some sort of triage, tell all the long term slackers that the gravy train has run out of steam, and cut them loose in order to get the budget under control and save the rest of the country.

[Alison]

It's not just the economy I meant, but the regulatory and tax burden against starting a new business. It's more that the economy is bad because of hurdles in starting or expanding businesses rather than the other way around. This isn't just some business cycle downturn that will turn back up in a couple years, this is a long term fundamental decline which for years has been concealed by artificial prosperity from borrowed money. Also, the powers that be have decided that they don't need or want a large middle class with economic independence at the individual or familial level, since such people are harder to control, so they have undertaken to do what they can to reduce the numbers of this class.

This doesn't make sense to me. In order for a country to survive, it needs a strong middle class. It needs, not big business, but many small to medium-sized enterprises.

I'm really confused as to why your government would take this stance. I feel the utmost sympathy for people who have the drive and ambition to start a business, but are not able to.

[Debaser11]

Nationalism is just lip service coming from almost anyone these days. The assumption is often made that the people in office care about the U.S. as a nation. Their actions suggest that they don't.

What the people in power care about doing is making their oligarchic globalist masters happy. (It's pretty obvious that's how it works in Europe, too.) One of the ways you do that is by increasing consumer markets and freeing up access to cheap labor. Check and...check. No borders! "Yay," says big business. "Yay," say the Mexicunts. "Yay," say the know-nothing know-it-all hipster liberal college students. Ironically, cultural Marxists and multi-national enterprises actually have huge intersecting interests. "Fight the power," my hairy ass. These measures will obviously hurt the middle class (I guess small business owners like my father are "the man" to the Marxists) and probably kill the country. But "so what?" is clearly the answer we're getting.

The Tea Party is not chanting "take our country back" for nothing.

[Austin]

Well the U.S. is incomparable to Europe in that we have pits of poverty in the U.S. due to minorities in vastly greater numbers than in Europe who drag us down and disable us from having a successful welfare state such as much of Europe has. Although it does look as if Europeans insatiable appetite for third world immigrants is finally starting to change Europe's ability to continue their benevolent welfare states as they have in a sense replicated what America has had all along, a permanent minority non-European underclass that leeches and destroys any progressive gains by the government. Minorities abuse welfare wherever it exists.

You want conservatism in a nutshell? Here it is: "Yes we understand a government can do more and be progressive yet not when there is a permanent underclass of people who undermine the system, we'd rather keep our money than have it mailed to blacks who sit around all day watching the church channel and eating chicken that they can't afford"

[The Lawspeaker]

Well the U.S. is incomparable to Europe in that we have pits of poverty in the U.S. due to minorities in vastly greater numbers than in Europe who drag us down and disable us from having a successful welfare state such as much of Europe has. Although it does look as if Europeans insatiable appetite for third world immigrants is finally starting to change Europe's ability to continue their benevolent welfare states as they have in a sense replicated what America has had all along, a permanent minority non-European underclass that leeches and destroys any progressive gains by the government. Minorities abuse welfare wherever it exists.

You want conservatism in a nutshell? Here it is: "Yes we understand a government can do more and be progressive yet not when there is a permanent underclass of people who undermine the system, we'd rather keep our money than have it mailed to blacks who sit around all day watching the church channel and eating chicken that they can't afford"
So that means that you are in still in favour of a European-level welfare state for European Americans ? Because if anything in the U.S is needed it will be that.

To the libertarians I have to say this. I think that if you are anti-welfare state then you are anti-democratic and even anti-nationalist.
Tony Benn says it's so nicely in Sicko:

Keeping people hopeless and pessimistic - see I think there are two ways in which people are controlled - first of all frighten people and secondly demoralize them.
An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern.

Because the powers that be bring in immigrants in order to undermine your fellow countrymen. And not giving out aid to your fellow countrymen in the form of a welfare state, a minimum wage, free tuition and free healthcare when you can miss a penny at the rather disguisting excuse that "I can't do it because of all the immigrants" is actually hypocritical. And what one actually is saying then: I'll make sure that my countrymen are left in the dumps so I can profit from cheap goods and cheap labour because my countrymen are so deep in debt, undernourished, unhealthy that they couldn't care less about politics.

What libertarianism and this kind of conservatism in essense comes to is this: concentrating power in the hands of the rich.
Note: those socialist groups that are now protesting against a migration stop are being financed by big cooperations and big banks. Something that can be clearly seen in the former and future careers (once they are voted out of parliament) in many Green and Socialist politicians. They are no different from the rest of them.

Demanding the creation of a functioning welfare state and fiercely defending the maintenance of it is the first step towards democracy - then also one needs to set up the way in which schools are run en order to ensure that multiculturalism doesn't creep into the children's heads.

Are we a functioning democracy ? No we are not. Are we a functioning welfare state ? One that sends people to the breadline and has already destroyed the socialized healthcare system and has given it to the free market..

[Sigara]

So that means that you are in still in favour of a European-level welfare state for European Americans ? Because if anything in the U.S is needed it will be that.

To the libertarians I have to say this. I think that if you are anti-welfare state then you are anti-democratic and even anti-nationalist.
Tony Benn says it's so nicely in Sicko:

Keeping people hopeless and pessimistic - see I think there are two ways in which people are controlled - first of all frighten people and secondly demoralize them.
An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern.



Firstly, where's all this money for this welfare state going to come from? Secondly, considering the US isn't a huge welfare state, American people are rather well educated. About 30% of Americans have a degree, I very much doubt the percentage is any higher in the Netherlands and you get university education virtually free.

[The Lawspeaker]

Firstly, where's all this money for this welfare state going to come from? Secondly, considering the US isn't a huge welfare state, American people are rather well educated.
It's called taxation. Paying money for the common good - but first one should make sure (same here) that the system is transparent again. It's something unknown in America.



About 30% of Americans have a degree,
It would be around the same here. And according to what I have heard: that's usually as good as it gets as not everyone is intellectually able to go to university. But 75 percent of the students here have announced to stop when the when the tuition fees are raised and the study support the government pays changed into a loan. This could well be the end of our education system and only make it available for the rich again.




I very much doubt the percentage is any higher in the Netherlands and you get university education virtually free.
No we don't. That's the problem. Education, on any level, should be free. That's why the situation isn't any better here but at least there is a safety net (that is now being torn down before our very eyes). So the solution is free tuition, free healthcare and a proper welfare state with high unionisation (with brand new unions - not the infiltrated ones we have now), few hurdles for starting up business either individually or communally, high political participation and a willingness to if necessary put the country under a general strike and an armed revolution when the rich and powerful try to tear down democracy again.

[Sigara]

It's called taxation. Paying money for the common good - but first one should make sure (same here) that the system is transparent again. It's something unknown in America.




The only people I believe in a welfare state for is the physically and mentally disabled, the vast majority of people who are claiming welfare in Western Europe are lazy, good-for-nothings who want to sit around all day because they get more money out of the rediculous welfare system than they would doing a minimum wage job - this is not right.

Who do YOU think should be entitled to benefits? Anyone who wants it?

[The Lawspeaker]

The only people I believe in a welfare state for is the physically and mentally disabled, the vast majority of people who are claiming welfare in Western Europe are lazy, good-for-nothings who want to sit around all day because they get more money out of the rediculous welfare system than they would doing a minimum wage job - this is not right.
:coffee:The typical American story. My mother was ill and she didn't get much at all.
Have you ever heard of something btw that is called "mass unemployment" and have you ever heard of the fact that people in secure jobs are being laid off so they can hire temporal workers that work on the cheap (like what the the mail company TNT did in the Netherlands: sacked it's employees and re-hired them on the cheap?) or that they sack Dutch/French/English workers and quickly hire foreigners or send the jobs in general abroad.



Who do YOU think should be entitled to benefits? Anyone who wants it?
Citizens.

[Sigara]

:coffee:The typical American story. My mother was ill and she didn't get much at all.
Have you ever heard of something btw that is called "mass unemployment" and have you ever heard of the fact that people in secure jobs are being laid off so they can hire temporal workers that work on the cheap (like what the the mail company TNT did in the Netherlands: sacked it's employees and re-hired them on the cheap?) or that they sack Dutch/French/English workers and quickly hire foreigners or send the jobs in general abroad.


[/FONT]

I don't quite see your problem. In the UK we call it "Job Seekers Allowance", if you are out of work a single person gets £65.45 a week. I don't know how much you get in the USA or the Netherlands, but that's how much you get in the UK.

Is see absolutely no problem with Job Seekers Allowance, AS LONG as the system is not abused and people go straight back into work when they get a job offer. However, all to often people take advantage of the system and find it easier to stay on benefits than go to work.

Is that not a welfare state?

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't quite see your problem. In the UK we call it "Job Seekers Allowance", if you are out of work a single person gets £65.45 a week. I don't know how much you get in the USA or the Netherlands, but that's how much you get in the UK.
It's actually just a legal way of working around the unions and borders on exploitation and that way of working should definitely be banned by law as it violated the honesty of the free market. Contracts ought to be fixed in accordance to the collective bargaining agreements and that's why they sack workers and rehire them on the cheap: annulling the CAO agreements.


Is that not a welfare state?
Barely.

[Sigara]

It's actually just a legal way of working around the unions and borders on exploitation and that way of working should definitely be banned by law as it violated the honesty of the free market. Contracts ought to be fixed in accordance to the collective bargaining agreements and that's why they sack workers and rehire them on the cheap: annulling the CAO agreements.

What are you on about? The UK has a very fair minimum wage. You're sounding like a commie with Anglophobia.


Barely.

What are the Dutch unemployment benefits then?

[Sigara]

[QUOTE}


Citizens.

What, so in other words Anyone who wants it? Meanwhile in the real world...

[The Lawspeaker]

What are you on about? The UK has a very fair minimum wage. You're sounding like a commie with Anglophobia.

I don't have Anglophobia nor am I a commie. You sound like Americanophile and the average FOX- viewer.
Usually the minimum wages aren't exactly "fair". They are just not enough to live off and just too much to die from.



What are the Dutch unemployment benefits then?
E 1.407,60 But they are thinking about cutting it.


What, so in other words Anyone who wants it? Meanwhile in the real world...
You apparently don't even know the meaning of citizenship. A citizen is a born member of a society. He has the full rights to participate by right of birth and blood.

[Sigara]

I don't have Anglophobia nor am I a commie. You sound like Americanophile and the average FOX- viewer.
Usually the minimum wages aren't exactly "fair". They are just not enough to live off and just too much to die from.

The level of social welfare in the UK is much higher than the US, don't be a fool. You seem slightly deluded about employment in the UK, most people are on more than the minimum wage. People aren't sacked so they can re-employ people for less. I think you're confusing the UK with the USA.



E 1.407,60 But they are thinking about cutting it.

Absolutely rediculous. What is stopping someone GETTING THEMSELVES sacked to then go on 1407 Euros a month without lifting a finger? A system like that is so open to abuse it's not even funny.

[The Lawspeaker]

The level of social welfare in the UK is much higher than the US, don't be a fool. You seem slightly deluded about employment in the UK, most people are on more than the minimum wage. People aren't sacked so they can re-employ people for less. I think you're confusing the UK with the USA.
That's why there are millions of unemployed people in the U.K.





Absolutely rediculous. What is stopping someone GETTING THEMSELVES sacked to then go on 1407 Euros a month without lifting a finger? A system like that is so open to abuse it's not even funny.
You get 70 percent of your last paid wage and there are plans of dropping people straight into the "assistance" after 12 months. So you usually end up on a social minimum right away. "Assistance benefits" in the Netherlands are € 649,52 in total and for the handicapped below the 27 around € 815 (for that you would have to be "unfit to work" - 100 percent). For years we didn't have breadlines but they started reappearing a couple of years ago.

I'd don't call it ridiculous - I call it exploitation and slavery.
Coupled with this: they want to risk the own-risk for the healthcare system to 210 (from 165 now) in 2012. Those under the poverty line are already struggling to pay it and unlike Britain we don't have an NHS and will raise the fees for childcare and scrap the pill from the basic insurance package.
But of course at the same moment they are lowering taxes for those profits made in the commercial sector and the home mortgage interest deduction remains intact.. of course for the rich people.

[Beorn]

most people are on more than the minimum wage.

Are they? I'd say that the majority of people are on or slightly above the acceptable minimum wage level.

Have you a link at all?


People aren't sacked so they can re-employ people for less.

Correct! They are usually looked over completely in order to employ foreign workers (ie: Polish, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc) instead.

[Sigara]

That's why there are millions of [QUOTE]unemployed people in the U.K.

Unemployment has risen because of an economic collapse in which less people are spending money, so companies are collapsing and shutting down. This is a factor all over Europe, and is worst in Spain where the unemployment rate is 20%.

Regardless, UK unemployment rate is 8.4%, one of the lowest in Europe, to give you an example SWEDEN has a higher rate of unemployment.




You get 70 percent of your last paid wage and there are plans of dropping people straight into the "assistance" after 12 months. So you usually end up on a social minimum right away. "Assistance benefits" in the Netherlands are € 649,52 in total and for the handicapped below the 27 around € 815 (for that you would have to be "unfit to work" - 100 percent). For years we didn't have breadlines but they started reappearing a couple of years ago.

I'd don't call it ridiculous - I call it exploitation and slavery.

And those that came up with this form of exploitation within the so-called free market and still want to force wages and benefits down or scrapped should be shot without even a trial.[/FONT]

So £551 a month? Which is £137 a week. Well, considering prices are higher in the Netherlands than the UK, that really isn't much more than the UK's £65 per person a month.

[Sigara]

Correct! They are usually looked over completely in order to employ foreign workers (ie: Polish, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc) instead.

All Western European countries are suffering from this problem and the Netherlands is no exception.

[The Lawspeaker]

Unemployment has risen because of an economic collapse in which less people are spending money, so companies are collapsing and shutting down. This is a factor all over Europe, and is worst in Spain where the unemployment rate is 20%.
While they have given plenty of money to bail out businesses and banks that were of course for bonuses given to the top dogs and the companies packed up and left right away.



Regardless, UK unemployment rate is 8.4%, one of the lowest in Europe, to give you an example SWEDEN has a higher rate of unemployment.
Sweden has even less worker protection then the UK. It doesn't have a minimum wage for instance.



So £551 a month? Which is £137 a week. Well, considering prices are higher in the Netherlands than the UK, that really isn't much more than the UK's £65 per person a month.
Which is pretty outrageous since they spend so much on bail-outs, development aid, pampering immigrants and the war. But of course "bail-outs" would be a good policy in your eyes.



All Western European countries are suffering from this problem and the Netherlands is no exception.
Exactly. And that's why we have to return to a social market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine_Capitalism) and forget about libertarianism and neo-liberalism. And while we are at it we should get rid of the immigrants, disallow private funding to political parties, cease all forms of cooperate welfare, development aid and streamline the government making it more flexible.

And I think that all business involved in such tricks should be nationalized without further warning, those CEO's involved should all their ill-gotten gains expropriated and handed over to their victims and themselves exiled or jailed while those businesses are privatized again and turned into cooperative institutions (thus held by the employees) and work on the free market in fair competition.

In order to save the free market and ensure both freedom and prosperity for the people it has to be cleansed --- big time.

[Beorn]

In the UK we call it "Job Seekers Allowance", if you are out of work a single person gets £65.45 a week.


Well, considering prices are higher in the Netherlands than the UK, that really isn't much more than the UK's £65 per person a month.

That depends upon the age and circumstances.

Jobseekers Allowance (JSA) Payments
Jobseekers Allowance is paid every 14 days, and it is paid directly into your bank account or building society account.
Contribution-based Jobseeker's Allowance
The maximum weekly amounts you can claim are:


16 - 25 year olds = £50.95
25 year olds and over = £64.30


Income-based Jobseeker's Allowance
The maximum weekly amounts you can claim are:


Single people, under 25 years old = £50.95
Single people, 25 years old and over = £64.30
Couples and civil partnerships who are over 18 = £100.95
lone parents, under 18 years old = £50.95
lone parents, 18 years old and over = £64.30

http://www.jobseekers-allowance.com/JSA-amount.html

I've known some people with similar circumstances receive £35 a week.

[Sigara]

While they have given plenty of money to bail out businesses and banks that were of course for bonuses given to the top dogs and the companies packed up and left right away.

I hate the financial sector of the UK and feel it is the reason why the UK economy collapsed


Sweden has even less worker protection then the UK. It doesn't have a minimum wage for instance.

I wasn't aware of that


Which is pretty outrageous since they spend so much on bail-outs, development aid, pampering immigrants and the war. But of course "bail-outs" would be a good policy in your eyes.


No, I think the banks should have been left to collapse, it's their own mess.



Exactly. And that's why we have to return to a social market economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine_Capitalism) and forget about libertarianism and neo-liberalism. And while we are at it we should get rid of the immigrants, disallow private funding to political parties, cease all forms of cooperate welfare, development aid and streamline the government making it more flexible.

And I think that all business involved in such tricks should be nationalized without further warning, those CEO's involved should all their ill-gotten gains expropriated and handed over to their victims and themselves exiled or jailed while those businesses are privatized again and turned into cooperative institutions (thus held by the employees) and work on the free market in fair competition.

I often have an adverse reaction to the welfare state and welfare state advocaters because all to often such people are multi-culturalists and want to give all the immigrants the same level of social provision.

[Sigara]

That depends upon the age and circumstances.

Jobseekers Allowance (JSA) Payments
Jobseekers Allowance is paid every 14 days, and it is paid directly into your bank account or building society account.
Contribution-based Jobseeker's Allowance
The maximum weekly amounts you can claim are:


16 - 25 year olds = £50.95
25 year olds and over = £64.30


Income-based Jobseeker's Allowance
The maximum weekly amounts you can claim are:


Single people, under 25 years old = £50.95
Single people, 25 years old and over = £64.30
Couples and civil partnerships who are over 18 = £100.95
lone parents, under 18 years old = £50.95
lone parents, 18 years old and over = £64.30

http://www.jobseekers-allowance.com/JSA-amount.html

I've known some people with similar circumstances receive £35 a week.

All the British chavs on benefits seem to be doing alright for themselves. Suped up cars, latest track suits, new mobile phone every three months, widescreen TVs, and all the booze and fags they could wish for. Where's all the extra money coming from?

[The Lawspeaker]

I hate the financial sector of the UK and feel it is the reason why the UK economy collapsed
Exactly. And who gets footed the bill ?




I wasn't aware of that
Now you do. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89ZsWVWR9SM&feature=related)




No, I think the banks should have been left to collapse, it's their own mess.
Exactly. While they helped them out (under a socialist minister of finance here btw .. himself ex-Shell) and they let the people pay the price.
The same goes for Icesave where they send the bill to the Icelandic taxpayer.





I often have an adverse reaction to the welfare state and welfare state advocaters because all to often such people are multi-culturalists and want to give all the immigrants the same level of social provision.
That's because the very idea has been hyjacked. The Swedes in the early days had a good name for it: folkhemmet. The people's home.
I think that one cannot be a good nationalist if one is against the welfare state.


All the British chavs on benefits seem to be doing alright for themselves. Suped up cars, latest track suits, new mobile phone every three months, widescreen TVs, and all the booze and fags they could wish for. Where's all the extra money coming from?
Paid on the never-never. Some maybe lucky with gambling or work illegally under the market in order to scrape by. Crime.

[Beorn]

All the British chavs on benefits seem to be doing alright for themselves. Suped up cars, latest track suits, new mobile phone every three months, widescreen TVs, and all the booze and fags they could wish for. Where's all the extra money coming from?

It's called crime.

[Sigara]

It's called crime.

Mugging someone a knife point for a tenner doesn't pay for that.

[Sigara]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social-expenditures-2001-OCSE.png

According to this the social welfare expenditure of the Netherlands and the UK is similar.

[Peasant]

Drug dealing, fraud, burglary.. still crime.

Also don't forget the middle class act like the council estate morons kind of people.

Also some of these 'chavs' may actually work for a living, you know?

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Social-expenditures-2001-OCSE.png

According to this the social welfare expenditure of the Netherlands and the UK is similar.
As of yet, yes. We just got the new figures for this period and the outlook is even grimmer. It used to be better.

[Beorn]

Mugging someone a knife point for a tenner doesn't pay for that.

Petty crime does add up. You can "earn" in excess of £500 a break-in for instance. But the crime I was referring to is more financially rewarding than that. For instance, I was approached by a friend asking if he could rent out my attic. When I naively asked what for, he said it could "earn" me a good £1000 in the hand for simply allowing him to set up an area in order to grow Cannabis. He would have looked to have made in excess of £10'000.

[Austin]

So that means that you are in still in favour of a European-level welfare state for European Americans ? Because if anything in the U.S is needed it will be that.

To the libertarians I have to say this. I think that if you are anti-welfare state then you are anti-democratic and even anti-nationalist.
Tony Benn says it's so nicely in Sicko:

Keeping people hopeless and pessimistic - see I think there are two ways in which people are controlled - first of all frighten people and secondly demoralize them.
An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern.

Because the powers that be bring in immigrants in order to undermine your fellow countrymen. And not giving out aid to your fellow countrymen in the form of a welfare state, a minimum wage, free tuition and free healthcare when you can miss a penny at the rather disguisting excuse that "I can't do it because of all the immigrants" is actually hypocritical. And what one actually is saying then: I'll make sure that my countrymen are left in the dumps so I can profit from cheap goods and cheap labour because my countrymen are so deep in debt, undernourished, unhealthy that they couldn't care less about politics.

What libertarianism and this kind of conservatism in essense comes to is this: concentrating power in the hands of the rich.
Note: those socialist groups that are now protesting against a migration stop are being financed by big cooperations and big banks. Something that can be clearly seen in the former and future careers (once they are voted out of parliament) in many Green and Socialist politicians. They are no different from the rest of them.

Demanding the creation of a functioning welfare state and fiercely defending the maintenance of it is the first step towards democracy - then also one needs to set up the way in which schools are run en order to ensure that multiculturalism doesn't creep into the children's heads.

Are we a functioning democracy ? No we are not. Are we a functioning welfare state ? One that sends people to the breadline and has already destroyed the socialized healthcare system and has given it to the free market..


I'd be for a European Peoples Socialism, absolutely, in a newly created northern realm of sorts. The problem with socialism and a welfare state (as we Americans have known all along and you Europeans are now finding out) is that when you have massive amounts of immigrants who are non-European then the welfare state and socialistic government becomes impossible and downright illogical. It begins to hurt Europeans in actuality because the system cannot endure the abuses and numbers of under-earning non-Europeans with different values and work ethics.

For instance take my city it is a flawless example of the above reality. The city is 70% Mexican(30-40% of which is illegal)/10%black and 20% white. My area is the largest European-person-growth area in the U.S. at the moment in respect to population so a perfect microcosm of the future considering Texas immigration realities.

European Americans (whites) all congregate in one area of the city to live, why? Because they want their tax money to go to a select few local schools so as it is not siphoned off to other parts of the city for English courses for illegal alien spawn. European Americans don't want socialism, they don't want to fund illegal alien English classes on the south side of the city. Socialism doesn't work for European people when the system is weighed down with aliens. If my entire city was white then nobody would have an issue but that is not the case.

[Debaser11]

I'd be for a European Peoples Socialism, absolutely, in a newly created northern realm of sorts. The problem with socialism and a welfare state (as we Americans have known all along and you Europeans are now finding out) is that when you have massive amounts of immigrants who are non-European then the welfare state and socialistic government becomes impossible and downright illogical. It begins to hurt Europeans in actuality because the system cannot endure the abuses and numbers of under-earning non-Europeans with different values and work ethics.

For instance take my city it is a flawless example of the above reality. The city is 70% Mexican(30-40% of which is illegal)/10%black and 20% white. My area is the largest European-person-growth area in the U.S. at the moment in respect to population so a perfect microcosm of the future considering Texas immigration realities.

European Americans (whites) all congregate in one area of the city to live, why? Because they want their tax money to go to a select few local schools so as it is not siphoned off to other parts of the city for English courses for illegal alien spawn. European Americans don't want socialism, they don't want to fund illegal alien English classes on the south side of the city. Socialism doesn't work for European people when the system is weighed down with aliens. If my entire city was white then nobody would have an issue but that is not the case.

But massive socialism is just bad. It's a recipe for dependency and disaster. Yes, globalist whores in the EU want immigrants but so do supporters of liberal welfare programs in Europe to keep a steady workforce that can pay into their systems. How did they get into this system of worker dependency in the first place? Socialism. It's hard to prosper and produce large families when the public sector owns half of your economy. I mean, it's no coincidence that Europe's birthrates dropped off as they became more socialist.

Here's the interesting difference that no one EVER talks about regarding the effects of this program on racial groups within the same country: unlike unscrupulous brownies and blackies who have no problem pumping out more children for more welfare cash, whites actually have qualms about such behavior. They realize that the increased payments to not adequately cover the cost of each new child. Some unscupulous minority could give two shits. "Theys be gettins mo' monies," and that's all that counts to them. I think it's an interesting phenomenon that highlights how different the viewpoints different cultures (white vs. non-white) have about children and how they're supposed to be provided for.

[The Lawspeaker]

Errrr no. They want immigrants that are dependent of them so they can stay in power (and also keep the money into their own little projects flowing and they would happily drop the welfare state for that) and the big bosses want immigrants so they can lower the wages.
The welfare state itself functioned beautifully without the immigrants - don't turn it around.

[Debaser11]

Errrr no. They want immigrants that are dependent of them so they can stay in power (and also keep the money into their own little projects flowing and they would happily drop the welfare state for that) and the big bosses want immigrants so they can lower the wages.
The welfare state itself functioned beautifully without the immigrants - don't turn it around.

Functioned beautifully? Birth rates below replacement levels are a beautiful thing?

[The Lawspeaker]

Functioned beautifully? Birth rates below replacement levels are a beautiful thing?
That's actually recent and a result of what happened after 1968 and has nothing to do with the actual welfare state. In the Netherlands we got our baby boom after the war and during the institution of the welfare state. It gave people the confidence to start a family and it actually did spread the wealth to such an extent that people were living longer and happier lifes. Before the war people here were literary living in slums.

The drop in the population would actually be a very good thing in countries like Britain or the Netherlands or the immigrants weren't there as they are actually overpopulated even without the immigrants. I actually make it even stronger: I blame the conservatives for this present situation as they should have created a welfare state with tough laws on employing and bringing in foreigners. Now they left the whole mess to the socialists.

http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/ERD/DB/data/maps/pop/3d_1_L.jpg
Would you call this a healthy situation ?

[Debaser11]

That's actually recent. In the Netherlands we got our baby boom after the war

Baby-booms usually happen to some degree in the midst of conflict or in the aftermath of one. It is this spike that probably played a role in delaying the inevitable.


and during the institution of the welfare state. It gave people the confidence to start a family and it actually did spread the wealth to such an extent that people were living longer and happier lifes. Before the war people here were literary living in slums.

I'd be interested to know: What % of your economy was managed by the government after World War II versus the 1970s,80s,90s and today? I'm willing admit if I'm wrong on this, but I'd be willing to bet the government controls more of your economy today than it did forty years ago.

I have no doubt that socialism as a system that works a great deal better for whites and East Asians than other races. I still don't think it's ideal, though.


The drop in the population would actually be a very good thing in countries like Britain or the Netherlands or the immigrants weren't there as they are actually overpopulated even without the immigrants.

A healthy economy is dependent about upon stable growth. That's why the wife and 2.3/2.1 kids are seen as the ideal. You don't want to do what Negros do and breed out of control, but a declining population is always a scare. Japan is shitting bricks about their falling population right now and they're not even close to being the multi-cult junkyard that Europe is (no offense).

[The Lawspeaker]

Baby-booms usually happen to some degree in the midst of conflict or in the aftermath of one. It this spike probably played a role in delaying the inevitable.
We probably wouldn't have had one without the introduction of general healthcare (1941- by the Germans and kept after the war), welfare and the introduction of more security in the workforce by the introduction of the Poldermodel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_Model) and also the building of better housing for large sections of our society (and of course the fact that electricity, water, sewage etc. were extended to large parts of the population). The Housing Act of 1901 had changed little and only when the welfare state came along they began to act.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Uilenburgstraat_Amsterdam_1925.jpg
Slums in Amsterdam in 1925.

http://lievendaal.dse.nl/images/00232.jpg

http://www.htmfoto.net/denhaag/Mariahoeve_6-3-1961%20copy.jpg
1950s




I'd be interested to know: What % of your economy was managed by the government after World War II versus the 1970s,80s,90s and today. I'm willing admit if I'm wrong on this, but I'd be willing to bet the government controls more of your economy today than it did forty years ago.
I am not sure about the level of control but low.
In the 1950s it held more control over the economy because of the reconstruction after the war. For instance until 1963 all wages were controlled while there was also a welfare state put it place. After 1963 all wage controls were released and it caused considerable inflation at first. Perhaps we can actually be happy that we found natural gas in 1959.

From the 1980s onwards all major businesses were privatised.



I have no doubt that socialism a system that works a great deal better for whites and East Asians than other races. I still don't think it's ideal, though.
The government here barely holds any companies. We have a free market economy coupled with a welfare state paid for by taxation. That's different from socialism.




A healthy economy is dependent about upon stable growth. That's why the wife and 2.3/2.1 kids are seen as the ideal. You don't want to do what Negros do and breed out of control, but a declining population is always a scare. Japan is shitting bricks about their falling population right now and they're not even close to being the multi-cult junkyard that Europe is (no offense).
Alright. You live in a place where there are barely any big cities so I think that we should look beyond simple cold mathematics and look into the effects that cities have on people. They cause stress and Japan is (like Europe) a stressed out society.
What Europe needs is a decline per country. The Netherlands is as big as Rhode Island and has the population of New York City and New Jersey. Do you think that's healthy ?


Anyways what it meant for the people to have and have not a real functioning welfare state can be seen in two episodes of Andere Tijden (in Dutch): 1930s (http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/themasites/mediaplayer/index.jsp?media=28651144&refernr=28576453&portalnr=4158511&hostname=geschiedenis&mediatype=video&portalid=geschiedenis) and 1950s (http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/themasites/mediaplayer/index.jsp?media=21711502&refernr=21628445&portalnr=4158511&hostname=geschiedenis&mediatype=video&portalid=geschiedenis)

[Austin]

I disagree that forms of socialism or a welfare state cannot work. I believe it can and has worked in places where Europeans makeup more than 90% of the population. I would and do agree however that such instances are either going to crash or are in the process of ending BECAUSE of a mad dash to compete with the U.S. economically which yes now Europe does but in doing so you essentially replicated what you most despise, America's nothingness in terms of racial heritage and culture. The population decline I don't believe is due to the actual welfare state but to a superior culture that makes it advantageous to have less children and at a later point. Clearly the population issue is something all elevated, superior peoples will have to deal with in the future but I sense it is a host of things and not just purely the effects of the state that cause such population declines.

It is interesting to me because Europe cannot exist for much longer in its welfare state system. It has now near-completely replicated the U.S. in respect to a permanent minority underclass and now is going to have to swallow the very pill it has been criticizing the U.S. for having to swallow for so long. Less taxes and vastly less services so as the remaining European peoples and their offspring can retain their wealth and ventures rather than have them leeched off and siphoned to the permanent minority underclass.

[Debaser11]

I am not sure about the level of control but low.
In the 1950s it held more control over the economy because of the reconstruction after the war. For instance until 1963 all wages were controlled while there was also a welfare state put it place. After 1963 all wage controls were released and it caused considerable inflation at first. Perhaps we can actually be happy that we found natural gas in 1959.

From the 1980s onwards all major businesses were privatised.

Low relative to what though? That's why I'm wondering what government spending looked like decade by decade up until today. War reconstruction, I presume, was mostly finished (or completely so) forty years ago which is why I wrote "forty years ago" in particular. Again, I may be wrong, but my hunch is that the welfare state has only gotten larger in forty years time. But I did go on the assumption that you all naturally have less government control imposed on you now than when the Marshall Plan or any of its periphery programs were in effect.


The government here barely holds any companies. We have a free market economy coupled with a welfare state paid for by taxation. That's different from socialism.

I didn't mean to imply that you guys were completely socialist. Sorry you took it that way. Relative to us, you guys are though.



[FONT="Georgia"]Alright. You live in a place where there are barely any big cities so I think that we should look beyond simple cold mathematics and look into the effects that cities have on people. They cause stress and Japan is (like Europe) a stressed out society.
What Europe needs is a decline per country. The Netherlands is as big as Rhode Island and has the population of New York City and New Jersey. Do you think that's healthy ?

Slow steady growth can be planned for and managed with care. It always has been. I don't necessarily see a ceiling in your country or in Europe if a much denser city like Tokyo, Japan has been able to stay healthy and clean for so many years and presumably will stay that way as long as they don't succumb to mult-cults and keep get their birthrates back on track. And a decline on the level of what's happening in Japan and Europe is alarming. It's hard to see the bottom.

[The Lawspeaker]

Low relative to what though? That's why I'm wondering what government spending looked like decade by decade up until today. War reconstruction, I presume, was mostly finished (or completely so) forty years ago which is why I wrote "forty years ago" in particular. Again, I may be wrong, but my hunch is that the welfare state has only gotten larger in forty years time. But I did go on the assumption that you all naturally have less government control imposed on you now than when the Marshall Plan or any of its periphery programs were in effect.
Not really as the government's role in the welfare state or the economy has been in steady decline for the past 25 years- speeding up over the last 10. And this is the case all over Europe when it comes to welfare programs, healthcare, pensions, minimum wage etc.




I didn't mean to imply that you guys were completely socialist. Sorry you took it that way. Relative to us, you guys are though.
Not even that. A welfare state has nothing to do with socialism per se but merely being a decent civilized society. For what I have heard the USSR didn't have a real welfare state but they had socialism.





Slow steady growth can be planned for and managed with care. It always has been. I don't necessarily see a ceiling in your country or in Europe if a much denser city like Tokyo, Japan has been able to stay healthy and clean for so many years and presumably will stay that way as long as they don't succumb to mult-cults and keep get their birthrates back on track. And a decline on the level of what's happening in Japan and Europe is alarming. It's hard to see the bottom.
You are clearly from America where they have so much space. The last thing one really wants is overpopulation. Having a lot of space is actually healthy for a country and a people. And the Japanese may be clean but they are a stressed out race with a lot of social problems and neurosis because of the overpopulation and the constant pressure to perform. And the majority of the west of our country is already one big city with 7 million people.


For the Netherlands I'd say that between 5 (at lowest) and 9 million people would be enough.

[Debaser11]

Not really as the government's role in the welfare state or the economy has been in steady decline for the past 25 years- speeding up over the last 10. And this is the case all over Europe when it comes to welfare programs, healthcare, pensions, minimum wage etc.

Well, if you have bucket of dead weight, benefits have to be cut on some level.


Not even that. A welfare state has nothing to do with socialism per se but merely being a decent civilized society. For what I have heard the USSR didn't have a real welfare state but they had socialism.


We have a very different understanding for makes a society "decent." I'm all for charity, btw.

You are clearly from America where they have so much space. The last thing one really wants is overpopulation. Having a lot of space is actually healthy for a country and a people. And the Japanese may be clean but they are a stressed out race with a lot of social problems and neurosis because of the overpopulation and the constant pressure to perform. And the majority of the west of our country is already one big city with 7 million people.


For the Netherlands I'd say that between 5 (at lowest) and 9 million people would be enough.

I've lived outside of the United States. Seoul, Korea is wonderful place and in some ways I'd prefer to raise my children there over any other urban jungle in my country. Seoul-Incheon (which has 20 million people) and Tokyo actually taught me that cities need not be "jungles" but beautiful gems of culture and interaction. I think sprawl like in the U.S. is bad because it's not efficient development. My country has tons of it. (Sadly, most of it is justified because it results from whites fleeing other races.) But sensible ("build high") forms architecture that happens at a steady rate doesn't seem like something to be fearful of.

And I'm not trying to say that the Netherlands should look like Japan. I do believe in self-determination. But I think Japan's social problems have a lot more to do with decadence and self-identity issues than they do with any overcrowding. In fact, during my stay in Tokyo, I didn't experience any claustrophobia. They manage their infrastructure and high population very efficiently. It's much easier to do that when you don't have a bunch of undesirables in your society to try to run away from.

[Cato]

I'll have wealth to pass on, even if I have to hide it in a false bank account or put it into a trust fund.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Christ, no! Read it again; Dad spent my inheritance on it for himself. You know, mid-life crisis, etc. :D

My one Dutch aunt is not married,she is worth 1.000.000 Euro,lives in Huizen and her will leaves everything to her 6 cats.:mad:

[The Lawspeaker]

My one Dutch aunt is not married,she is worth 1.000.000 Euro,lives in Huizen and her will leaves everything to her 6 cats.:mad:
Eh.. I am not sure whether that is legally possible under Dutch law ?

[Lulletje Rozewater]

E 1.407,60 But they are thinking about cutting it.

Is 14.000 SARand,a good wage here with an average of R 10.000.
Even the costs here a cheaper than in Holland.
It may be the 7 fat years are over and possibly a wage decrease is impossible compared to the cost of living

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Eh.. I am not sure whether that is legally possible under Dutch law ?

That is what she said.
If so then the state has a field day,she has no sisters or brothers

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's pretty pathetic how Western Europeans and Americans complain about how small their salary is or how they can't find a job. In the former Yugoslavia, the average salary is about $3000/year or $250/month (higher if you work in a big city). I don't see how the richer countries have a right to complain how small their welfare check is when they get that money that is many times larger than a Yugoslavian worker will ever earn in a year.

[Debaser11]

It's pretty pathetic how Western Europeans and Americans complain about how small their salary is or how they can't find a job.

It's pretty pathetic how Serbians complain about how small their salary is or how they can't find a job when there are starving Boers all over South Africa who live off of one dollar a day. Dude, it's all relative. Not every country has the same cost of living, either. There is not a low standard you have to be at before you are "allowed" to complain. When a situation sucks, it sucks.


I don't see how the richer countries have a right to complain how small their welfare check is when they get that money that is many times larger than a Yugoslavian worker will ever earn in a year.

Well, I disagree with welfare. It's crap. But I'm of the opinion that the richer countries can complain all they want about whatever they fancy. They didn't get rich by accident. Only Marxists believe such childish crap.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's pretty pathetic how Serbians complain about how small their salary is or how they can't find a job when there are starving Boers all over South Africa who live off of one dollar a day. Dude, it's all relative. Not every country has the same cost of living, either. There is not low standard you have to be at before you are "allowed" to complain.

Your comparison is wrong. The Africans have been free to develop by themselves for many centuries before the colonization. Whereas we were occupied by the Austrians and Ottomans for 500 years then experienced multiple wars post-occupation with the 1999 NATO terrorist bombings as the climax in the decline of our civilization.

[Debaser11]

Your comparison is wrong. The Africans have been free to develop by themselves for many centuries before the colonization. Whereas we were occupied by the Austrians and Ottomans for 500 years then experienced multiple wars post-occupation with the 1999 NATO terrorist bombings as the climax in the decline of our civilization.

You missed my point. My point was not to get into a historical spat with you. I simply disagree with your argument that someone has to be at a certain level of suffering before they can complain. I was also referring to the Dutch-descended BOERS in SOUTH AFRICA. You know, THESE people:
http://dienuwesuidafrika.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/afrikaner-boers-left-to-the-killers-%E2%80%93-dutch-paper/

[poiuytrewq0987]

You missed my point. My point was not to get into a historical spat with you. I simply disagree with your argument that someone has to be at a certain level of suffering before they can complain. I was also referring to the Dutch-descended BOERS in SOUTH AFRICA. You know, THESE people:
http://dienuwesuidafrika.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/afrikaner-boers-left-to-the-killers-%E2%80%93-dutch-paper/

If the people didn't have to suffer so much in the first place then they wouldn't be complaining. And I admit I did mistook the Boers for African as I rushed through your post reading only African. It's lame how you talk about how terrible the situation the Boers are in when you say things like Charlize Theron (http://www.charlizeafricaoutreach.org/) is hot.

[Debaser11]

If the people didn't have to suffer so much in the first place then they wouldn't be complaining.

That makes enough sense.


And I admit I did mistook the Boers for African as I rushed through your post reading only African. It's lame how you talk about how terrible the situation the Boers are in when you say things like Charlize Theron (http://www.charlizeafricaoutreach.org/) is hot.

I didn't know about that. That site is definitely lame. It reminds me of the terrible propaganda I had to sit through just to watch some soccer (or football if you prefer) games. White people embracing black African culture does strike me as lame and shallow. Black African culture really has nothing to be proud of, I hate to say. It's mostly just wild animals and stupid jungle music like the tune off of her site. Pretty meaningless if there's no real thriving civilization beneath it. But I was sort of being tongue-in-cheek in the movie thread. She's not my dream girl or anything. Besides, I'm sure plenty of those attractive European women in that one thread are equally lame. Yet I'm sure you like many other men who frequent this forum salivate over a few pics of hot bodies carrying lame brains.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I didn't know about that. That site is definitely lame. It reminds me of the terrible propaganda I had to sit through just to watch some soccer (or football if you prefer) games. White people embracing black African culture does strike me as lame and shallow. Black African culture really has nothing to be proud of, I hate to say. It's mostly just wild animals and stupid jungle music like the tune off of her site. Pretty meaningless if there's no real thriving civilization beneath it.

They certainly haven't achieved a lot yet Europeans feel the need to help them. If we carry their hands, it means they won't be able to learn how to develop by themselves rather depend on us. That simple fact is also applicable to every single other living being in the universe.


But I was sort of being tongue-in-cheek in the movie thread. She's not my dream girl or anything. Besides, I'm sure plenty of those attractive European women in that one thread are equally lame. Yet I'm sure you like many other men who frequent this forum salivate over a few pics of hot bodies carrying lame brains.They're just eye candy, really...

[Lulletje Rozewater]

You missed my point. My point was not to get into a historical spat with you. I simply disagree with your argument that someone has to be at a certain level of suffering before they can complain. I was also referring to the Dutch-descended BOERS in SOUTH AFRICA. You know, THESE people:
http://dienuwesuidafrika.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/afrikaner-boers-left-to-the-killers-%E2%80%93-dutch-paper/

To date the death toll is 3000 plus
Here some more victims

http://cid-b6b44a5376348175.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Kill%20Boer%20Kill%20Farmer%20ANC%20hatechant%20Vi ctims%20Trauma%20pictures?sa=842237596

[Debaser11]

^Yup. A modern day genocide that the liberal media's delicate sensibilities can't be bothered to cover. Instead, we hear about Korans being put into a toilet or a white kid playing a practical (mean) joke on blacks inside a Walmart.

[SwordoftheVistula]

It's pretty pathetic how Western Europeans and Americans complain about how small their salary is or how they can't find a job. In the former Yugoslavia, the average salary is about $3000/year or $250/month (higher if you work in a big city).

OK, what's the rent like though? And the costs for utilities, transportation, food, and other necessities? An apt even in a bad city here is around $600 minimum, plus a minimum of $200 or so per month for basic utilities. Transit, depending on how far you live from work, is another $50-$300+, food is $100-$200 min, so when you add it all up, someone who doesn't get support from parents or have some nepotism job in US probably doesn't have that much better lifestyle.