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The Ripper
09-20-2010, 11:20 AM
Estonia as a Nordic Country

Viimati uuendatud: 14.06.2005
Speech by Toomas Hendrik Ilves, Minister of Foreign Affairs, to the Swedish Institute for International Affairs, 14 December 1999


Where a country lies is a subjective decision and only in part a product of its own desire. Much if not most is determined by what others believe about it. As Milan Kundera pointed out twenty years ago, Prague is 300 kilometers to the West of Vienna.Yet Prague was East, Vienna West. Today, rather than talk about Estonia's own foreign and domestic policy goals, which in this part of Europe is fairly well known, I would focus instead on how Estonia is viewed, where it resides subjectively in the perceptions of the West, and then in what sense it would make much more sense to view Estonia in an integrated Europe. The first part will be a perhaps unpleasant view of the current mindset or paradigm. In second half of my talk I shall attempt to describe my personal view of what a Thomas Kuhnian paradigm shift would be in the mental geography of the Nordic region.

I have long maintained that Eastern and Western Europe operate on different clocks, a difference that comes out of our diametrically different experiences with change. The post WWII experience of Western Europe can be characterized by unprecedented political and economic success that derives from slow, incremental change. Indeed it has become almost axiomatic A corollary to this is that instability and rapid changes must be avoided at all costs. This approach has indeed been successful, especially if we look at how out of the ruins of the Second World War Western Europe has turned into the economic and political powerhouse it is today.

In the Post-Communist World, however, the experience with time is the opposite. Slow, incremental change has always been equated with stagnation. What liberated the Czechs, Hungarians, East Germans, not to mention Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, were rapid, decisive actions. Moreover, this experience has been reinforced by the reform or transition period of post-libcration. Estonia's radical and resolute reforms form the basis of our success. The countries that chose a less dramatic reform course are the ones who did not get invited to the first round of EU negotiations.

Aside from foreign diplomats stationed in Estornia, few foreigners are aware of the sea-change that has taken place. This results in a lack of understanding, that often can be perceived in Estonia as arrogance and haughtiness, if not downright prejudice.

Let me give you some examples of how pre-conceived notions regarding Estonia and Eastern Europe can backfire.

Estonia's leadership in such areas as the Internet today was inconceivable in the fall of 1991, when the Estonian Foreign Ministry had two 7 kilo "mobile phones", one for the Foreign Minister, one for his aide. Regular phone connection from outside Estonia was virtually non-existent. No faxes, no computer connections. As I shall discuss at a greater length later, within a span of eight years Estonia now ranks as one of the most interneted countries in the world, leading not only a1 of the applicant countries but also at least half of the EU.

Out of the thousands of conferences held each year in Estonia, one stands out, the Pärnu Management conference, attended and addressed by the business and political elite of Estonia as well as other leading figures from around the world. This years keynote speaker was Samuel Huntington. Last year, the following took place. After a full day of presentations by Estonians using sophisticated and elegant powerpoint projections as well as other high-tech innovations, a representative of a Nordic Government took the floor. He used old-style overhead projection slides, printed so small that none beyond the first row of the packed 500 seat auditorium could read it. The presentation was confused and by the end most people had walked out. The subject of his talk: How useful it is to computerize and how the government of country x was prepared to teach Estonian companies the virtues of computerization.

Last year after an Estonian court had ruled against a Finnish company in a dispute with an Estonian company, the leading Finnish daily Helsigin Sanomat questioned in its lead editorial whether or not one could get a fair hearing in an Estonian court. I wonder what the response would be if Svenska Dagbladet had similarly questioned the decision of a Finnish court?

Two years ago at the Council of Europe the ambassador of a major European country dismissed a question from an Estonian diplomat on why certain rules and decisions apply only to those countries that were formerly under communist rule. We should applaud his honesty, for instead of denying that different rules were indeed applied, he stated outright, the rules of the CoE "do not apply to real countries"

Corruption

At a recent conference held here in Stockholm on Security in the Baltic Sea area a Nordic presidential candidate devoted the bulk of her talk on corruption and crime as a real threat to security in the Baltic Sea area. Now, I agree that corruption always is a threat to security and that any corruption is bad. I must also say, however, that talking about corruption in Estonia is more of an indication of underlying prejudices and unwarranted assumptions than a serious analysis of what threatens the region. According to Transparency International my country has a lower corruption rating than three members of the EU. But it is one of those Baudelaireian received ideas. A cliche, untrue, but repeated precisely because it is a received idea. There is a standard belief that a priori these countries, not only Estonia, but all of the post-communist countries must be corrupt.

But if cliches and stereotypes belong to the realm of cognitive psychology, then to what can I ascribe the response by a European Commission official to my rebuttal of the corruption cliche at the aforementioned conference? I had just pointed out that for two years in a row Estonia had been rated less corrupt than a number of EU countries, and that this year we were glad to see that Slovenia had joined us as the second post communist country to have such a high rating. The Commission official stood up and said, well, the Transparency International study is questionable- a French satirical magazine had just lampooned it. Is it really so difficult to take that a post-communist country is not as corrupt received prejudice dictates? Does one immediately question a study because it does not conform to one's notions of real countries and aboriginal?

If we already are probing the collective unconscious of Western Europe, then we certainly cannot leave out the previous European Parliament raporteur on EU enlargement. After producing a report critical of Estonia two years ago, he could not restrain himself and felt obliged to add, that after writing the report he fears to visit Estonia for he fears being stabbed.

I shall not even begin to recount the exploitation of Estonia and other formerly communist countries when it comes to the issue of crime. But a good example was to be found in Finland where an international drug ring involving some forty odd people, mainly finns along with several Estonians was arrested. The headlines - Estonian drug ring arrested.

Let us not forget the issue of womens rights. On this issue the Minister of Social affairs of Estonia was plublicly berated and downright insulted because supposedly there were too few women in positions of power in Estonia. But again, let us look at reality. Estonia today has more women ambassadors than the UK. We have only 24 representations, Britain is represented virtually everywhere. Next year we will have 6 woman ambassadors, one quarter of our ambassadors, and undoubtedly more than allmost all countries. Nonetheless, received ideas count more than the truth, even to the point of insulting an Estonian minister.

Now allow me to turn to the OSCE. It is no secret that for a number of years Estonia has found it odd that the attention of OSCE institutions toward Estonia is disproportionate. Estonia, as opposed to a very I large number of countries in Western Europe, does not have ethnic conflicts. Indeed, I am convinced that OSCE Missions placement is inversely related to GDP per capita. With one provison. GDP per capita does not count if you are a nuclear power. But all this is a minor issue. There are alas no intellectually valid arguments for a mission in Estonia, but this of course does not matter. We are simply steamrollered. It is a matter of power politics employed against the powerless.

When it comes to Western Europe, which insists on calling itself only "Europe", however, where there are ethnic riots even in Scandinavia, and we ask why the OSCE is not involved there, we are told: wait until you get in, then you won't have one. Logically, of couse, this leads to a moral abomination: once you get in, then you can do the things we do but you currently may not.

To finish this catalogue, let me mention the so called "Stockholm Group", also known as the "Friends of the Balts". Ten countries come together to discuss issues directly affecting the fates of eight million people. Of those three countries, no representatives are invited. To discuss us without inviting us is simply bound to recall us the past.

In closing the first half of my talk I would mention two books, neither by a balt, which define the issue better than any other. The first is The Baltic Revolution by Anatol Lieven and published by Yale University Press which I consider the best book on the issue of the Baltic States. In his book Lieven characterizes an erstwhile Foreign Minister of Lithuania as follows. He "surprised western diplomats with his generally simian appearance and behaviour". Now imagine what would have happened if a so called scholar would have called any other foreign minister but an Eastern European" simian in behavior and appearance".

The other book I would recommend people to read, if they wish seriously to deal with Eastern Europe, is Inventing Eastern Europe - The Map of Civilization on the Mind of the Enlightenment by Larry Wolff. Wollf`s thesis is that ever since the Enlightenment, Western Europe has needed Eastern Europe. It has need Eastern Europe as a foil, to use the Shakespearean term, a counter-example to feel superior about oneself, even when the data contradict you, even when corruption, crime, rate of development is not at all what you want it to be so you can feel good about yourself. Wolff shows how Western Europe historically bolstered its image of itself by comparing its society to a mythical image of Eastern Europe as a hopelessly backward and primitive culture. Professor Wolff s book is about 300 years ago. Alas, it is written about today.

All this will have long-term consequences. We Estonians will do what is necessary to join the European Union. No matter how arbitrary, no matter how redolent of the old Quod licet iovi, non licet bovi. My fear is, what kind of attitudes you will be bringing in. Treatment of the kind we are subjected to breeds cynicism and contempt, something that East-Europeans may be hiding now. But these feelings could easily be imported into the EU. They should not be.

And now I will offer an alternative.

Yule-land

We live in Yule-land, the area where one and the same word signifies both the birth of Christ as well as the solstice, the return of the sun, one of the two highpoints in the pre-Christian Calendar of the hyperboreans. Jõul in Estonian, Joulu in Finland, Jul in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Jol in Iceland. On the British Isles, Yule. At Yule-tide, Jultid, Jõuluaeg, we burn the Yule-log, a symbol of warmth and light at the darkest and coldest of times. The Yule-swath that extends from Iceland and Britain through the Scandinavians to the Finnic lands that include Estonia, ends there. In Latvia Yule is Ziemastvetki, in Lithuania Kaledos, in Russia Rozhdestvo.

The borders of Yule, the geographical boundaries of archeological finds of sacrificial and runic stones all point to extensive intraregional traffic and interaction in pre-historic times: terms as basic as the name of the solstice do not travel well. And they are stubborn. Witness the persistence of the word Yule a thousand years after the region's Christianisation. For maritime nations, however, ideas and practices travel quickly. This cultural substrate would be interesting but meaningless, were it not very much in evidence today in the attributes others ascribe to Yulelanders and the quite measurable behavior of individuals in the aggregate. Brits,Scandinavians, Finns, Estonians consider themselves rational, logical, unencumbered by emotional arguments; we are businesslike, stubborn and hard-working. Our southern neighbors see us as too dry and serious, workaholics, lacking passion and joie de vivre.

Stereotypes, after all, do occasionally have a heuristic value. Unfortunately most if not all people outside Estonia talk about something called "The Baltics". This is an interesting concept, since what the three Baltic States have in common almost completely derives from shared unhappy experiences imposed upon us from outside: occupations, deportations, annexation, sovietization, collecitivization, russification. What these countries do not share is a common identity.

A brief excursion into the history of the Baltic idea is useful. The first time the term balt came into use to describe this limited part of the Baltic Sea littoral was in the second half of the 19th century. With the development of national consciousness on the part of the Estonians and the Latvians in the then three provinces of Estland, Lettland and Kurland, the germans living there began calling themselves Balts. Neither Estonians nor Latvians were Balts, but Germans. There was a secondary, purely academic linguistic term, the Baltic languages, Latvian, Lithuanian and the now defunct East Prussian, but this was confined to academic circles.

With the independence for the first time of a number of new countries in the wake of the first World War , incl.adino, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland (after a hiatus of 150 years), Czechoslovakia, Austria and Yugoslavia, a new geographical term came into use: the Baltic countries. There were four of them: Estonia and Latvia, as well as two that had never been associated with the term Baltic- Lithuania and Finland. The last is today surprising but if you read the diplomatic, academic and even popular literature of the 1920s you will find that the outside world indeed thought of four Baltic states. As did the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact in 1939.

This changed regarding Finland at the end of the 20s and the beginning of the thirties. Finland on the one coast, and Sweden on the other, adopted a policy of nordicization. Finland abandoned her earlier attempts to create a Baltic Union and decided to push to become a Nordic country. The Swedish Foreign Ministry, as I was told by Lars Freden, did a policy review and decided that it was in Sweden's ability, resources and national interest to nordicize but one of the Balts, Finland. Today, no one thinks of Finland as a Baltic country, but as a self-evident member of Yule-land.

I think it is time to do away with poorly fitting, externally imposed categories. It is time that we recognize that we are dealing with three very different countries in the Baltic area, with completely different affinities. There is no Baltic identity with a common culture, language group, religious tradition. For almost four years now, Lithuania has been correctly pointing out that it is a Central European country. Its Catholicism, architecture, history all link it to Poland and the other Vishegrad countries. Estonia was and as I will try to point out is, if anything, a member of Yuleland.

Despite the travails and altogether different experiences of the historical era, the intervening millenium of wars, occupations, as well as modernization and the phenomenal rise of all but one (until recently soviet-occupied) Yuleland to the ranks of the richest nations, commonalities remain.

Today, Yulelanders rank the highest in the world in Internet connections and in mobile phone penetration, loeest in the world in corruption. Iceland, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Sweden (in that order) top Europe in Internet penetration. The UK is the 8th place. Suprisingly given its backwardness as a "Soviet Republic" only eight years ago, Estonia ranks eleventh in the entire Europe, including non-EU internet leaders such as Iceland and Norway. We are by far the highest ranked former Communist country and are more interneted than half the EU.

This same reassertion of Yulelander identity in Estonia in other measure is high-tech identity, mobile-phone use, where it is ahead of even Germay and quickly catching up to the world leaders, the Scandinavians. Indeed there are more mobile phones in Estonia today than there were fixed line connections when we re-established independence.

By far the oddest indicator, however, of a Yulelander identity evidenced by individual behaviour measured in the aggreaate is corruption, or more precisely, the absence of corruption. According to its yearly survey of corruption around the world Transparency International rates the five least corrupt countries in Europe as Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Iceland and Norway. The UK rates 8th place. Estonia is 15th, a post-communist country but rated less corrupt than three members of the EU.

Clearly the case is to be made that these Protestant, high-tech oriented countries form a Hu-ntingtonian subcivilisation, different from both its southern and eastern neighbors. The long, dark and cold winter nihts of Yuleland, inhospitable as they were to our ancestors' lives in agrarian societies, have produced a similar mindset and a culture geared to the demands of a modern, globalised economy. Indeed one could say that yulelanders are the new wave of Europe.

No genuine "northern identity" has emerged, yet. Yulelanders are individualistic and loathe to identify with groups. None the less, something is on the move. Within the European Union a northern identity is emerging. Estonians, the only people to halve broken through the initial prejudices of the EU toward the "former soviets" are already described by "southerners' as the "new Finns"'. With the breakdown of borders imposed by the Cold War as well as the dissolution of the far less noxious borders of the post-Westphalian system of nation-states within the EU, common interests, common styles and approaches will increasingly dominate. As regions rather than individual countries play an ever more important role in the open global economy Yule-land will clearly be a major player.

Already now the UK and Nordic countries are the biggest players in the Estonian economy, accounting for the overwhelming majority of investments in the country, as well as our own export destination. This makes perfect sense - we understand each other, we can do business. As this group of countries continues to stand among the best economic performers on the -global stage, the identity of Yuleland is bound to emerge to become a force and way of doing things that will be reckoned with.

Thank you


http://www.vm.ee/?q=node/3489

Osweo
09-20-2010, 01:57 PM
'Yuleland'? LOLland.

Eldritch
09-20-2010, 08:38 PM
Well, I sure like me some internet penetration, but I'm a little concerned over how Ilves is concerned over how his country is perceived by foreigners. As if that really matters.

Osweo
09-20-2010, 09:02 PM
My word... I skimmed through it again, and found this;

one of the two highpoints in the pre-Christian Calendar of the hyperboreans.
HYPERBOREANS!!!!

Wow. Did he really say that, or is it just the bad translation (I noticed a few other errors) which has used this nearly mythological word to translate something mundane like 'Far-Northerners'!??!

Is he really the first politician for sixty years to use this term in seriousness? :p

The Ripper
09-20-2010, 10:23 PM
Well, I sure like me some internet penetration, but I'm a little concerned over how Ilves is concerned over how his country is perceived by foreigners. As if that really matters.

Well, its what seems to matter most to Finnish politicians.

Eldritch
09-20-2010, 11:22 PM
Well, its what seems to matter most to Finnish politicians.

I know, which is one of the reasons this country is in such a steep decline.

EDIT:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go to the other extreme and insist that for small countries like us and Estonia the image the outside world has of us is irrelevant. It isn't, not entirely, but what these worms forget is that we don't need to stage some elaborate advertising campaign for the benefit of those people and agencies that actually matter, because they don't need to be told, they already know, since they are capable of finding things out for themselves. That is what them relevant and worthwhile in the first place.

Eldritch
09-20-2010, 11:37 PM
Btw does anybody where Lenna is? I'd like to hear her 2c on this.

The Ripper
09-20-2010, 11:43 PM
Btw does anybody where Lenna is? I'd like to hear her 2c on this.

He is still a man as far as I know. :thumb001:

And I have a pretty clear idea what his two cents are. I posted this to serve as an insight to non-Estonians on the debate of Nordic identity within Estonia. The debate itself has been done to death on TA, and nothing productive ever came of it because of the personal vendettas and the excessive trolling.

Eldritch
09-20-2010, 11:54 PM
He is still a man as far as I know. :thumb001:


I take internet imagines literally.

Lenna has a woman's name, she has a woman on her avatar and has identified herself on her profile as female, therefore Lenna the TA member is female.

The gender of the person behind the profile is an entirely different issue.

ikki
09-21-2010, 12:07 AM
'Yuleland'? LOLland.

yes, LOLland is in yuleland. Its a Danish island.

The Ripper
09-21-2010, 01:28 PM
I take internet imagines literally.

Lenna has a woman's name, she has a woman on her avatar and has identified herself on her profile as female, therefore Lenna the TA member is female.

The gender of the person behind the profile is an entirely different issue.

You make an interesting point. :D

esaima
09-21-2010, 01:43 PM
I wonder how snobby some of us, Estonians (presidents, internet-posters etc) are if the talk is about our compeer Latvia. I wonder how gnathonic we are if the talk is about Nordici.
Isn´t this attitude somewhat childish or is it somewhat inevitable for a small country?

Äike
09-23-2010, 02:05 PM
Well, I sure like me some internet penetration, but I'm a little concerned over how Ilves is concerned over how his country is perceived by foreigners. As if that really matters.


Btw does anybody where Lenna is? I'd like to hear her 2c on this.

I do not know what Ilves thinks, but I and other Estonians find it very annoying that the majority of foreigners think that we are Russians or Slavs. The more educated ones think that we are Balts, which is also wrong.

There are people(1 Italian, as far as I know) on this forum, who recently thought that Estonians are Slavs. I hope that she still doesn't think so.

Then a larger bunch thinks that we are Balts, which is also wrong. But I understand why they make such an error. Estonia is called a Baltic country, thus it would be logical that the inhabitants would also be Baltic, but we aren't.

The geographic term "Baltic" lost its meaning after Finland wasn't called Baltic anymore. Estonia being grouped together with people who they do not share any common mentality with, is a bit confusing.

Then there's the term Eastern-European, which is sometimes applied to our country. The image that most people get is, Slavic, Christian Orthodox, backwards and high corruption.

Estonia is the opposite of that, lowest corruption levels in the EU, together with the Nordic countries, we are Lutheran/non-religious, not Slavic and very advanced.

When Ilves wrote this speech in 1999 and talked about Estonia catching up to the world-leaders in the high-tech area, then the reality in 2010 is that we haven't caught up to them, we have passed them.

To sum it up, Estonians aren't Eastern-Europeans nor Balts. If you want to put Estonians into a larger group, then Nordic would be the most correct term.

Korbis
09-23-2010, 02:54 PM
Too bad the geographical and cultural reality kind of destroy that dream. Escandinavia: Nordic. End of story. Nordics have a germanic background while you and the Finnish are Finno-Ugric. The scandinavians are derived from an ethnic and linguistic stock different from yours. Standards of life means nothing.

Thats´s nothing wrong on being baltid or "east european" -like all of them were the same!- and I find a bit offensive to assume otherwise.

Sarmata
09-23-2010, 02:55 PM
I do not know what Ilves thinks, but I and other Estonians find it very annoying that the majority of foreigners think that we are Russians or Slavs. The more educated ones think that we are Balts, which is also wrong.

There are people(1 Italian, as far as I know) on this forum, who recently thought that Estonians are Slavs. I hope that she still doesn't think so.

Then a larger bunch thinks that we are Balts, which is also wrong. But I understand why they make such an error. Estonia is called a Baltic country, thus it would be logical that the inhabitants would also be Baltic, but we aren't.

The geographic term "Baltic" lost its meaning after Finland wasn't called Baltic anymore. Estonia being grouped together with people who they do not share any common mentality with, is a bit confusing.

Then there's the term Eastern-European, which is sometimes applied to our country. The image that most people get is, Slavic, Christian Orthodox, backwards and high corruption.

Estonia is the opposite of that, lowest corruption levels in the EU, together with the Nordic countries, we are Lutheran/non-religious, not Slavic and very advanced.

When Ilves wrote this speech in 1999 and talked about Estonia catching up to the world-leaders in the high-tech area, then the reality in 2010 is that we haven't caught up to them, we have passed them.

To sum it up, Estonians aren't Eastern-Europeans nor Balts. If you want to put Estonians into a larger group, then Nordic would be the most correct term.

I still think that term Ugro-Finns would be better.;)

Äike
09-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Too bad the geographical and cultural reality kind of destroy that dream. Escandinavia: Nordic. End of story. Nordics have a germanic background while you and the Finnish are Finno-Ugric. The scandinavians are derived from an ethnic and linguistic stock different from yours. Standards of life means nothing.

Thats´s nothing wrong on being baltid or "east european" -like all of them were the same!- and I find a bit offensive to assume otherwise.

Well, Finns nor Estonians share any cultural ties with Eastern-Europeans. So how can we be Eastern-Europeans? That's like calling someone French, while the person is actually German and isn't French in any possible way.


I still think that term Ugro-Finns would be better.;)

If Finland is called a Nordic country, then the same should be done with Estonia. Good luck describing "Ugro-Finns" to someone.

No European starts introducing his/her country by saying they are Indo-European, even Gypsies are Indo-European. Both "Ugro-Finns/Finno-Ugric" and "Indo-European" are very wide terms.

Sarmata
09-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Well, Finns nor Estonians share any cultural ties with Eastern-Europeans. So how can we be Eastern-Europeans? That's like calling someone French, while the person is actually German and isn't French in any possible way.



If Finland is called a Nordic country, then the same should be done with Estonia. Good luck describing "Ugro-Finns" to someone.

No European starts introducing his/her country by saying they are Indo-European, even Gypsies are Indo-European. Both "Ugro-Finns/Finno-Ugric" and "Indo-European" are very wide terms.

Probably becouse that Finland is located in Scandinavia...Your country is considered as Baltic state(becouse of geography). If you don't feel any cultural bonds with Indo-European Balts than you should be consider as "Baltic Ugro-Finns"(It makes that some uneducated people do not confuse Estonians with Hungarians for instance;)).

Äike
09-23-2010, 03:55 PM
Probably becouse that Finland is located in Scandinavia...Your country is considered as Baltic state(becouse of geography). If you don't feel any cultural bonds with Indo-European Balts than you should be consider as "Baltic Ugro-Finns"(It makes that some uneducated people do not confuse Estonians with Hungarians for instance;)).

Finland is also a Baltic state, because of geography. But no one calls Finland, Baltic, anymore. Because Finns do not share any ties with the Balts, it's the same with Estonians. But as we regained independence in 1991, together with the Balts, then we were lumped together with them, just like in 1920. When Finland and Estonia were both Baltic countries, but Finland wasn't occupied in 1940 and has had enough time to distance itself from this oxymoronic term.

In 1920, there were 4 Baltic countries and in 1991 there were 3 Baltic countries. Maybe in the future the term "Baltic" will start making sense and there will be 2 Baltic countries.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 04:54 PM
I still think that term Ugro-Finns would be better.;)

That is only a linguistical classification of a group that is extremely diverse and wide-spread. Perhaps you mean Baltic Finnish / Finnic?

And Finland is not located in Scandinavia.

Like I've said before, it seems that its the term "Nordic" that people find problematic, perhaps because of preconcieved ideas of what Nordic is and what it isn't. However, the cultural proximity is real, so I suggest using "Northern European," a term that would encompass the Northern Lutheran countries.

Lenna's incomprehensible distancing from Latvians and ALL "Eastern influence" is of course absurd.

Sigara
09-23-2010, 05:11 PM
Lol, yeah right, and so's Russia.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 05:12 PM
Lol, yeah right, and so's Russia.

Please, if you have nothing constructive to add, at least don't contribute to the (probably inevitable) derailing of this thread.

Äike
09-23-2010, 05:42 PM
Lenna's incomprehensible distancing from Latvians and ALL "Eastern influence" is of course absurd.

Distancing from Latvians? How? I'm just saying how things are, Estonians do not feel that they are related to Latvians nor do Estonians share some common "Baltic mentality" with Latvians and Lithuanians. Read the 200-page PDF about Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other and you get a better idea about my point.

Also define Eastern influence, Finland has also been ruled by the Russian empire. But in reality, Russians didn't have much influence in Finland nor Estonia. Finns were still ruled by Swedes and Estonians were ruled by the Baltic-Germans. No one spoke Russian in Estonia, before the attempted Russification in the 1880's and 1890's.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 05:47 PM
Distancing from Latvians? How? I'm just saying how things are, Estonians do not feel that they are related to Latvians nor do Estonians share some common "Baltic mentality" with Latvians and Lithuanians. Read the 200-page PDF about Estonian and Latvian stereotypes towards each other and you get a better idea about my point.

You try to portray Estonia's southern border as some kind of huntingtonian civilizational fault line, which it quite clearly isn't.


Also define Eastern influence, Finland has also been ruled by the Russian empire. But in reality, Russians didn't have much influence in Finland nor Estonia. Finns were still ruled by Swedes and Estonians were ruled by the Baltic-Germans. No one spoke Russian in Estonia, before the attempted Russification in the 1880's and 1890's.

Influence from the eastern side of the Great Schism. Are the Seto Estonians according to you?

Äike
09-23-2010, 05:55 PM
You try to portray Estonia's southern border as some kind of huntingtonian civilizational fault line, which it quite clearly isn't.

Latvians have Finnic elements in their culture, definitely.


Influence from the eastern side of the Great Schism. Are the Seto Estonians according to you?

Are you saying that all 930 219 Estonians have Eastern influence, because 10 000 Setos are Orthodox? This is ridiculous.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 05:58 PM
Latvians have Finnic elements in their culture, definitely.

And Finnics have plenty of Baltic elements, and both have many shared elements that come from outside the region, such a lutheranism, German influence, Scandinavian influence, Russian influence, Soviet influence, the list is longer than Santa's beard.


Are you saying that all 930 219 Estonians have Eastern influence, because 10 000 Setos are Orthodox? This is ridiculous.

The question mark at the end of my sentence indicates that its a question, not a statement.

Äike
09-23-2010, 06:03 PM
And Finnics have plenty of Baltic elements, and both have many shared elements that come from outside the region, such a lutheranism, German influence, Scandinavian influence, Russian influence, Soviet influence, the list is longer than Santa's beard.

Well, according to Wikipedia, Latvians are more Catholic, than Lutheran.


The question mark at the end of my sentence indicates that its a question, not a statement.

I actually consider themselves to be a different ethnic group, but very similar to us. They're quite unique.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 06:07 PM
Well, according to Wikipedia, Latvians are more Catholic, than Lutheran.
Would you look at that. But since its a result of Soviet rule, we cannot consider it truly Latvian. :rolleyes:


I actually consider themselves to be a different ethnic group, but very similar to us. They're quite unique.

But they're clearly culturally Eastern rather than Western. If they're very close to you, doesn't that mean that also you share some Eastern influences? The Kalevala, for example, is a product of this "Eastern aspect" of Finnicdom.

Äike
09-23-2010, 06:16 PM
Would you look at that. But since its a result of Soviet rule, we cannot consider it truly Latvian. :rolleyes:

The result of Soviet rule would mean there are more Orthodox people... Catholics mean Central-European influence.


But they're clearly culturally Eastern rather than Western. If they're very close to you, doesn't that mean that also you share some Eastern influences? The Kalevala, for example, is a product of this "Eastern aspect" of Finnicdom.

Actually, the Seto people are more Nordic than Estonians, because they have a Nordic cross flag. :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Flag_of_Setomaa.svg/800px-Flag_of_Setomaa.svg.png

Eldritch
09-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Lol, yeah right, and so's Russia.

Do you mind ?!? :speechless-smiley-0

There actually are people who want to conduct understandable discussions on this forum. So next time think first, post later.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 06:28 PM
The result of Soviet rule would mean there are more Orthodox people... Catholics mean Central-European influence.
The decline of Lutheranism is a result of Soviet rule.


Actually, the Seto people are more Nordic than Estonians, because they have a Nordic cross flag. :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Flag_of_Setomaa.svg/800px-Flag_of_Setomaa.svg.png

It is a pretty flag. But let's be serious for a moment. The rigid classifications and divisions you propose don't hold water in my opinion. I mean, take the Kalevala and related folk poetry and epics. They could only survive under Orthodoxy, i.e. "Eastern" influence, while being zealously wiped out in the more western, protestant areas. And yet they are seen as being iconically "Finnic" and perhaps even by some as something that ties into the poetic traditions of Scandinavia, and thus something very "Nordic" - but still, they are "Eastern influence" in the identity project of Baltic Finnics. :)

In a region with where all the countries have intensive ties and a long shared history, the cultural classifications are far more fluid than what you make them out to be, in my opinion. While I would definately agree that Russia and Finland as wholes are very distinct culturally, I can at the same time assert that there is much that is shared. And with Latvia and Estonia, more so.

Äike
09-23-2010, 06:34 PM
In a region with where all the countries have intensive ties and a long shared history, the cultural classifications are far more fluid than what you make them out to be, in my opinion. While I would definately agree that Russia and Finland as wholes are very distinct culturally, I can at the same time assert that there is much that is shared. And with Latvia and Estonia, more so.

...


Stereotypes, after all, do occasionally have a heuristic value. Unfortunately most if not all people outside Estonia talk about something called "The Baltics". This is an interesting concept, since what the three Baltic States have in common almost completely derives from shared unhappy experiences imposed upon us from outside: occupations, deportations, annexation, sovietization, collecitivization, russification. What these countries do not share is a common identity.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 06:38 PM
...

I'm sure Ilves has a point. But I would also like to point out that Scandinavians don't share a common identity with Estonians.

Äike
09-23-2010, 06:43 PM
I'm sure Ilves has a point. But I would also like to point out that Scandinavians don't share a common identity with Estonians.

What were the Swedes and Danes doing in Estonia during our Freedom war, as volunteers?

And what were Danes, Swedes and Estonians doing in Finland, as volunteers, during the Winter war?

I doubt that anyone would go to war for a country/people, as a volunteer, if he wouldn't feel related to that country/people.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 06:48 PM
What were the Swedes and Danes doing in Estonia during our Freedom war, as volunteers?

And what were Danes, Swedes and Estonians doing in Finland, as volunteers, during the Winter war?

I doubt that anyone would go to war for a country/people, as a volunteer, if he wouldn't feel related to that country/people.

Do you seriously think that Swedes, Danes and Norwegians (or Finns for that matter) consider Estonians Nordic brothers? :rolleyes:

Fighting Bolshevism was surely a key motivator for many of volunteers, besides some shared identity. Can you provide some kind of account of their motives?

Äike
09-23-2010, 06:56 PM
Do you seriously think that Swedes, Danes and Norwegians (or Finns for that matter) consider Estonians Nordic brothers? :rolleyes:

In 2010, no. In 1920, yes. Estonians are called ryssä in Finland and looked down on, because we didn't have 50 years of capitalism and aren't as wealthy. While pre-WW2, Estonia was wealthier than Finland.


Fighting Bolshevism was surely a key motivator for many of volunteers, besides some shared identity. Can you provide some kind of account of their motives?

I do not know what their motives were, but my guess is that they felt some kind of relatedness with Estonians.

If they would have wanted to fight Bolshevism, then why didn't Latvia receive any Danish, Finnish nor Swedish volunteers? ;)

esaima
09-23-2010, 07:26 PM
all 930 219 Estonians, 10 000 Setos
Let´s be more optimistic, according to Wiki the head count of Estonians is 1100000 (heh-number of Latvians is 1500000- thus the difference is not 1:2 like many think).;)


Orthodox Setus
Well, historically they have been different from Estonians.Today they are and behave like Estonians. Or, if we want to be very exact-South-Estonians.:)I have met many Setus.
The head count of Setus may be 15000- I have heard it.


The decline of Lutheranism is a
result of Soviet rule.
Yes.


The Setus, btw pay more attention to religion than Estonians (vist more churches, celebrate their orthodox holidays etc) but certainly not as much as they did 100 or 70 years ago.

Äike
09-23-2010, 07:28 PM
Let´s be more optimistic, according to Wiki the head count of Estonians is 1100000 (heh-number of Latvians is 1500000- thus the difference is not 1:2 like many think).;)

Well, I'm realistic not optimistic and I didn't count the Estonians not living in Estonia.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 08:03 PM
In 2010, no. In 1920, yes. Estonians are called ryssä in Finland and looked down on, because we didn't have 50 years of capitalism and aren't as wealthy. While pre-WW2, Estonia was wealthier than Finland.

They're called ryssä because of ignorance and arrogance.




I do not know what their motives were, but my guess is that they felt some kind of relatedness with Estonians.

Your guesses are not valid arguments, though.

Äike
09-23-2010, 08:06 PM
They're called ryssä because of ignorance and arrogance.

Such ignorance and arrogance wouldn't exist if Estonia would still be wealthier than Finland, just like it was before WW2.


Your guesses are not valid arguments, though.

If their only goal was to fight Bolshevism, then why didn't Latvia receive any Swedish, Danish nor Finnish volunteers? Because Finns, Swedes and Danes felt some kind of connection with Estonians, in 1918.

Matritensis
09-23-2010, 08:41 PM
I doubt that anyone would go to war for a country/people, as a volunteer, if he wouldn't feel related to that country/people.

The Spanish Blue Division (volunteers) went to fight against the Russians alongside the Germans.I'm sure there are more examples like this.

Hweinlant
09-23-2010, 08:48 PM
If their only goal was to fight Bolshevism, then why didn't Latvia receive any Swedish, Danish nor Finnish volunteers? Because Finns, Swedes and Danes felt some kind of connection with Estonians, in 1918.

Finns certainly felt Estonian cause as our own. There is really no doubt about that. After Estonian liberation war was over many Finnish vets headed directly to East Karelia, because they were/are kinsfolk too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_Uprising_and_Soviet%E2%80%93Finnish_ conflict_1921%E2%80%931922

Latvia did receive Finnish troops (Pohjan Pojat, Sons of the North) when Finns and Estonians marched over the border to Latvia, to fight against the Latvian Bolsheviks.

Main motivation for Finnish volunteers was to help Estonian veljeskansa, killing Bolsheviks was just bonus for those guys.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 09:07 PM
The Spanish Blue Division (volunteers) went to fight against the Russians alongside the Germans.I'm sure there are more examples like this.

Volunteers from virtually every European country joined the Nazis in the fight against Bolshevism.


Such ignorance and arrogance wouldn't exist if Estonia would still be wealthier than Finland, just like it was before WW2.

Its the Soviet legacy in general.

@Hweinlant,

Yes, Finnish volunteers definitely had a motive involving kinship, ethnic brotherhood, whatever you want to call it. But it was specifically Finnic kinship, not Nordic.

esaima
09-23-2010, 09:09 PM
But it was specifically Finnic kinship, not Nordic.
Yep.

Äike
09-23-2010, 09:27 PM
Now explain to me the Swedish and Danish volunteers in Estonia and the reason why Latvia didn't receive any Scandinavian volunteers. From a logical viewpoint, Latvia is closer to Denmark, thus if the only goal would have been to fight Bolshevism, then the Danes wouldn't have made the longer trip to Estonia.

It was also possible to join the Polish army.

I'm very curious about any other explanations, than the logical explanation of Danes and Swedes feeling related to Estonians.

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 09:36 PM
Now explain to me the Swedish and Danish volunteers in Estonia and the reason why Latvia didn't receive any Scandinavian volunteers. From a logical viewpoint, Latvia is closer to Denmark, thus if the only goal would have been to fight Bolshevism, then the Danes wouldn't have made the longer trip to Estonia.

It was also possible to join the Polish army.

I'm very curious about any other explanations, than the logical explanation of Danes and Swedes feeling related to Estonians.

Well, I think you could come with at least something to back up your claim that it was due to a sense of cultural solidarity. If you have something that indicates that, I would be very interested in it.

Searching the web, I found this:

http://www.vnk.fi/julkaisukansio/2004/j07-norden-och-krigen-i-Finland-och-Baltikum/pdf/sv.pdf

It seems to be an account of the Nordic volunteers in the wars in Finland and Balticum. Perhaps it will yield some interesting information.

Hweinlant
09-23-2010, 09:42 PM
But it was specifically Finnic kinship, not Nordic.

Certainly, dream of Great Finland and Balto Finnic unity was thriving strong. Besides relationship between Finland and Sweden was not even that good back then. Damn Swedes refused to give us the Länsipohja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4sterbotten) (how selfish!).

The Ripper
09-23-2010, 09:50 PM
Certainly, dream of Great Finland and Balto Finnic unity was thriving strong. Besides relationship between Finland and Sweden was not even that good back then. Damn Swedes refused to give us the Länsipohja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4sterbotten) (how selfish!).

Yes, relations with Sweden were strained, and more important than Västerbotten (Westrobothnia? :D) was Åland, as well as domestic political scene which was hostile to the privileged status of the Swedish language.