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Beorn
01-30-2009, 12:07 AM
The Union of England and Scotland is over





By Simon Heffer


Pity, for a moment, the most interesting man in the world, Alistair Darling. Last Friday he had an impossible mission, and I apologise in advance for teasing him about it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer went to Stirling University in his - and much of the Government's - native Scotland to celebrate its 40th anniversary. His mission, however impossible, was simple: to say to his fellow Scots that, at a time when the Scottish National Party is using its mandate to press ever more strongly the case for independence, they were far better off staying in the Union.
He is, of course, right. At least £11 billion of English money heads for Edinburgh each year, the better to soak the Scots in their dependent relative status. My revered colleague Alan Cochrane wrote, entirely speciously, on this page three weeks ago about why he thought the English should not mind. His argument was that the affluent parts of England subsidise the English regions as part of a national scheme, so why (given that we have a Union) should not this subsidy extend to Scotland? As you will have appreciated, the answer is obvious.


We English have a conception of our nation as acute as the Scots now have of theirs. Scotland has signified it does not want English meddling in its domestic matters, as is its right: so much for the Union. The English regions, by contrast, are an integral part of the English nation. Short of balkanising England - something Labour has been keen to do, with its failed plans for regional assemblies - that will remain so: and English people will, therefore, always have a claim on English money that is infinitely more legitimate than any the Scots can make on it.
It was against this troublesome backdrop that Mr Darling went to Stirling. Labour is desperate not to lose Scotland, because it would lose 40 of Scotland's 59 MPs. Bang would go its working majority at Westminster and the jobs, salaries and perks of the Scottish Raj that rules England. You see the problem, don't you? So Mr Darling laid it on with the proverbial trowel. He boasted that Scotland has the highest income per head of anywhere outside London and the South-East. He said that in 2010 Scots would have £30 billion a year to spend as they wished, thanks to Labour's generosity. Addressing his specific audience, he said that Scotland wins more than its share, given its population, of university research funding. If all this is true - and we know how ministers bend statistics - then the porkometer is off the scale.
Yet herein lies the difficulty. Every time Mr Darling, or any other member of the Raj, brags about the largesse Scotland gets from London, the English get angrier and angrier. Look at a story in this newspaper yesterday, if you seek a cause of this rage. Eleven drugs available on NHS prescription in Scotland, treating such awful conditions as lung cancer, brain tumours, bone and bone marrow cancer and Alzheimer's disease, are denied to NHS patients in England. Now, it might reasonably be supposed (and indeed many in England do suppose it) that if £11 billion of their money were not going to Edinburgh, there might just be a few bawbees available for such unimportant things as alleviating the sufferings of the English sick. I know it is bad taste to point this out, but let that not stop us.
Mr Brown, in his squalid and anti-democratic way, has since the first devolved parliament opened in 1999 firmly resisted any suggestion that the West Lothian question needs an answer. He sees no reason why Scottish MPs (and indeed Welsh ones - Labour has 29 of them) at Westminster should not be allowed to continue to vote on matters that affect only the English. Since the Welsh Assembly has recently received a new tranche of powers, expanding its areas of competence, this means that at Westminster Labour can technically deploy 69 MPs to vote on questions that do not affect their constituents one jot, but which can change the course of law in England. That Mr Brown blithely affects to be unmoved by this outrage causes one to question not merely his intelligence but his sanity.
Back in the 1950s, in the two or three years before Suez, there was a strong constituency in the Tory party that blathered on about the need to maintain the British Empire: the Suez Group was the main focus of this. They were absurd, because the empire had ceased to exist in 1947 when India went. Once the jewel in the crown was lost, the rest of the structure would fall apart inevitably. So it is now with some in the Labour Party. The Union is over, morally at least. When Scotland voted for devolution in 1997 the Union fell into a coma. When Alex Salmond's SNP administration was elected in May the last rites were read, and the final process of sundering got under way. All that remains is for the Scots, in a referendum, to vote to stick the coffin in the grave, with the Union flag still on it, and pile on the earth.
This is the last thing Mr Brown and the rest of the Raj want. Because of Scottish separatism they are already illegitimate in the eyes of many English, which is why they bang on with such dishonesty and vulgarity about "Britishness". If Scotland became independent, Labour's chances of ever again ruling the key country of the Union - England - would vanish. Mr Brown and his fellow nabobs would either have to take English citizenship, and find English seats, if they wished to have a political career in a big, serious country, or they would have to settle for running Scotland. Oddly enough, they have hitherto shown a remarkable lack of keenness to do that.
It is a horrible thing for Labour to admit, but thanks solely to its actions and initiatives Britain is now more a term of geography than of politics. This provides, though, an awesome opportunity for the Tories. Sir Malcolm Rifkind's recent plan for English votes at Westminster on English laws has some promise, and Mr Cameron would redeem himself considerably if he chose to embrace it. It would, after all, be but a recognition of the reality of the status quo, and a means of compensating the English for the severe wrongs done to them democratically in recent years. Mr Cameron has nothing to lose by ending the pretence that the Union has a future, and dismissing the Suez group of MPs who, for cynical reasons, pretend it has.
Indeed, the honest position for the Tories - learning from the horrors contingent upon the rejection of Gladstone's Home Rule Bill in 1886 that gave us 120 years of misery with Ireland - is that if a part of the Kingdom wishes to go its own way then nothing should be done to stop it. I would go further. I feel England and Scotland will only ever be happy together if they are politically apart. I am sure from the Scots' point of view independence would be a mistake - the Luxembourg of the north they are not - but grown-ups must be allowed to make their own mistakes. For the moment, the Tories should take the lead and announce that, as far as they are concerned, the Union, like the empire, is over.


Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3644010/The-Union-of-England-and-Scotland-is-over.html)

stormlord
01-30-2009, 10:27 PM
Bang on. People should just accept it and move on. There's also the bonus of watching Scotland turn into Bulgaria without England to lean on.

Oisín
02-01-2009, 02:28 PM
Bang on. People should just accept it and move on. There's also the bonus of watching Scotland turn into Bulgaria without England to lean on.
So you'd get satisfaction in watching your nearest neighbours fail then? Perhaps it's England that would turn into Bulgaria without Scotland's oil. I agree with you that the Union is on it's last legs though, can't wait for it to be finished either.

Osweo
02-01-2009, 02:54 PM
So you'd get satisfaction in watching your nearest neighbours fail then?
Step inside an Englishman's head for a moment. (Wipe your feet!)

All the live-long day we have to put up with the rest of island moaning and whining, while we pump money into their education and health, and are ruled by Scots opportunists who don't care a whit for us. There are literally people dying in England, for want of the things we're giving Scotland to appease them for the terrible shameful state they're in of providing our heads of government and voting on our private internal matters.

If they want to leave, good, and if they get egg on their faces from some of the unconsidered aspects of this, we can be forgiven for a little "Hah, we told you so!"

I'm not sure that it would be all so terrible for the other British Nations in independence, but the possibility is there. Strategically, it's good for us too if they all do well, and I wish them the best of luck, if they finally make their minds up.

Right, you can get out of my head now. I won't frisk you, or ask you to turn out your pockets, out of renowned English hospitality... :p

Oisín
02-01-2009, 03:07 PM
Step inside an Englishman's head for a moment. (Wipe your feet!)

All the live-long day we have to put up with the rest of island moaning and whining, while we pump money into their education and health, and are ruled by Scots opportunists who don't care a whit for us. There are literally people dying in England, for want of the things we're giving Scotland to appease them for the terrible shameful state they're in of providing our heads of government and voting on our private internal matters.

If they want to leave, good, and if they get egg on their faces from some of the unconsidered aspects of this, we can be forgiven for a little "Hah, we told you so!"

I'm not sure that it would be all so terrible for the other British Nations in independence, but the possibility is there. Strategically, it's good for us too if they all do well, and I wish them the best of luck, if they finally make their minds up.

Right, you can get out of my head now. I won't frisk you, or ask you to turn out your pockets, out of renowned English hospitality... :p
This will sound harsh but I find it hard to feel any sympathy to be honest, England has a fine tradition of robbing and plundering smaller nations, Scotland was raped and pillaged for centuries by the English crown so I see it as poetic justice that they're now finally reaping the rewards of being in the Union.

Osweo
02-01-2009, 03:18 PM
This will sound harsh
It might, if I could dissociate it from the more accustomed 'like a broken record' sound.

but I find it hard to feel any sympathy to be honest, England has a fine tradition of robbing and plundering smaller nations, Scotland was raped and pillaged for centuries by the English crown so I see it as poetic justice that they're now finally reaping the rewards of being in the Union.
Yeah yeah. A lot of my family are from Northumberland, and Scotch rape and pillage and plunder are well remembered up there, I can tell ye.

When will you lot get that chip off your shoulder and realise that we've all been smacking it to each other since forever, with nobody much more guilty of it than anybody else?

And having 'Irish Holocaust' in your sig is rather laughable. Everyone's queuing up to join in the victim culture... :coffee:
I read the link, and am not entirely certain I trust all of it, though a fair bit of it is no doubt true. And yet there's no popular tradition of it in my family from Tipperary and Kilkenny. Some nasty things are told in great detail of the Black and Tans, but nothing of these forced grain requisitions. :confused:

stormlord
02-01-2009, 03:19 PM
This will sound harsh but I find it hard to feel any sympathy to be honest, England has a fine tradition of robbing and plundering smaller nations, Scotland was raped and pillaged for centuries by the English crown so I see it as poetic justice that they're now finally reaping the rewards of being in the Union.

There's a difference between defeating someone fairly, and the strong glorying in their own humiliation. I could understand the poetic justice if Scotland had conquered us by force of arms, but it's only our distorted altruism that is giving them power over us. It's analogous to the way every white nation is expected to glory in their own destruction at the hands of masses of third world immigrants, while they spit in our faces about how one day they'll be in charge of our countries; it would be different if they beat us fair and square, but in reality they can only do it because we let them.

British and Proud
02-01-2009, 03:43 PM
It would allow us all to be more easily absorbed into the EU, as we'd each be smaller and more financially dependent on Brussels, plus the constitutional implications would provide the opportunity to destroy our sovereignty.

I am British first and foremost!

Oisín
02-01-2009, 03:57 PM
When will you lot get that chip off your shoulder
When we have our country back perhaps?

and realise that we've all been smacking it to each other since forever, with nobody much more guilty of it than anybody else?
Your country is guilty of invading and occupying mine for centuries, of genocide and attempting to wipe out the Irish language and culture. I don't expect you to give a toss as it didn't happen to your country but as an Irish Nationalist I obviously care and will continue to have that chip on my shoulder until Ireland is united and free.

And having 'Irish Holocaust' in your sig is rather laughable. Everyone's queuing up to join in the victim culture... :coffee:
I read the link, and am not entirely certain I trust all of it, though a fair bit of it is no doubt true. And yet there's no popular tradition of it in my family from Tipperary and Kilkenny. Some nasty things are told in great detail of the Black and Tans, but nothing of these forced grain requisitions. :confused:
I have it in my sig in memory of the millions of Irish people who either died or were forced to leave their homeland as a consequence of being under the rule of the English crown, you think it's laughable, I don't.

Osweo
02-01-2009, 04:56 PM
When we have our country back perhaps?
You have a country. But you're greedy. You want the country that you had in the 1600s. Good job English Nationalists don't demand that, isn't it?

Your country is guilty of invading and occupying mine for centuries, of genocide and attempting to wipe out the Irish language and culture.
Well now, isn't this the crux of the matter?

How can a country be guilty of anything?

Where do you find this country, to arrest it and punish it? You can't!

So you end up having to punish the people.

Now, the people over here aren't the same ones who did cruel unnecessary things in the 1840s. Actually the people over here in the 1840s aren't the same as those who were active in Ireland! And the people here now, well, a good proportion of them are descended from those who suffered in the Famine!

People inherit the unfortunate results of the sins of the fathers, but not the guilt.

I don't expect you to give a toss as it didn't happen to your country
Happened to my family, instead. Although one branch did rather well out of it, buying up the cheap land afterwards. That's a side of it you don't hear about so much! :eek:

but as an Irish Nationalist I obviously care and will continue to have that chip on my shoulder until Ireland is united and free.
Forever then. :(

You'll only achieve your 32 county ideal by evicting people who've been there for centuries. Or by treason on the part of those who should defend them. Pretty shoddy way to go about things, either way.
Your opponents in the North have every reason to be suspicious of Dublin rule, unsympathetic to them and their heritage, can you deny that?

I have it in my sig in memory of the millions of Irish people who either died or were forced to leave their homeland as a consequence of being under the rule of the English crown, you think it's laughable, I don't.
Laughable is the jumping on the Jews' bandwagon.

stormlord
02-01-2009, 05:18 PM
When we have our country back perhaps?

I have it in my sig in memory of the millions of Irish people who either died or were forced to leave their homeland as a consequence of being under the rule of the English crown, you think it's laughable, I don't.


The dictionary definition of holocaust precludes the famine from being included. Despite any lies that may be told, the British government did not aim to kill Irish people, nor did it initiate the famine, those are irrefutable facts. Did the incompetent response of the government exacerbate the situation severely? Yes. Does incompetence count as genocide? No.

People tend to forget that famines every fifty to a hundred years in which hundreds of thousands if not millions of people died were a feature of almost every European country for millennia.

As regards talking about "your" country, the general consensus in international law, accepted by all western nations (including yours), is that current populations of an area have a right of self determination (majority of northern Ireland being Unionists), and that territorial claims dating from before WWII are generally null. However, you can have Northern Ireland back when we can have that nice chunk of France that is "ours" back., how does that sound? Oh and the Germans will be wanting Alsace Lorraine, and the Greeks will be wanting Macedonia, and the Cypriots will be wanting Northern Cyrpus, and throw in Istanb.. I mean Byzantium while they're at it...and so on...........and so on.......................

Treffie
02-01-2009, 11:00 PM
The dictionary definition of holocaust precludes the famine from being included. Despite any lies that may be told, the British government did not aim to kill Irish people, nor did it initiate the famine, those are irrefutable facts. Did the incompetent response of the government exacerbate the situation severely? Yes. Does incompetence count as genocide? No.


This is a bold statement, in more ways than one. The truth is we don't really know and we will probably never will. What we must consider though is that the British Empire was one of the most ambitious, callous and blood thirsty that ever was - this is why it was so successful. I can't think of one other Empire that was successful by baking cookies for the indigenous population. Anyway, what's done is done - it's now history.

stormlord
02-02-2009, 01:27 AM
This is a bold statement, in more ways than one. The truth is we don't really know and we will probably never will. What we must consider though is that the British Empire was one of the most ambitious, callous and blood thirsty that ever was - this is why it was so successful. I can't think of one other Empire that was successful by baking cookies for the indigenous population. Anyway, what's done is done - it's now history.

Logical argumentation not big these days eh? Yes we do know, what are you claiming, that 19th century evil British scientists genetically engineered the potato blight and dropped it from planes? You do at least know that the famine happened all over Europe and that it was Ireland's over reliance on a single crop that was the main cause of the famine, right? Those are f-a-c-t-s. With regards to intention, another general rule of argumentation is you don't have to prove a negative; there is zero evidence that British government aimed to kill Irish people. Perhaps you'd like to tell me again why it's such a bold statement, in what way are the two assertions I made untrue?

As regards the Empire, ironically, though not to quite that extent, that was the precise reason it was successful, and no it was not "one of the most bloodthirsty", as empires go, it was a lot less bloodthirsty than most, so frankly you're way off on that one.

The foundation of the success of the British Empire was that it treated subjugated peoples better than any other imperial powers (relatively), not simply stripping them of resources as other powers did (eg the Spanish mercantilist impulse). Why do you think it is that virtually every French and Spanish colony is a hole compared to British ones? Compare Haiti to the Bahamas, Vietnam to India, Malaysia to Indonesia.

Treffie
02-02-2009, 01:38 AM
The foundation of the success of the British Empire was that it treated subjugated peoples better than any other imperial powers (relatively), not simply stripping them of resources as other powers did (eg the Spanish mercantilist impulse). Why do you think it is that virtually every French and Spanish colony is a hole compared to British ones? Compare Haiti to the Bahamas, Vietnam to India, Malaysia to Indonesia.

I can list thousands of `holes` which were under the domain of the British Empire,

Guyana, Bangladesh (India), Sudan, the list is endless..............


Logical argumentation not big these days eh? Yes we do know, what are you claiming, that 19th century evil British scientists genetically engineered the potato blight and dropped it from planes? You do at least know that the famine happened all over Europe and that it was Ireland's over reliance on a single crop that was the main cause of the famine, right? Those are f-a-c-t-s. With regards to intention, another general rule of argumentation is you don't have to prove a negative; there is zero evidence that British government aimed to kill Irish people. Perhaps you'd like to tell me again why it's such a bold statement, in what way are the two assertions I made untrue?


I'm not claiming anything, why should I? I'm British and I'm also impartial, my post stated that we should see both sides before we make decisions, it's quite a simple philosophy.

stormlord
02-02-2009, 12:45 PM
Yes, I understand your general point, all I was saying was that it was inaccurate with regard to what I said, I made sure to make my points very specific, certain things don't have "two sides" because they aren't stories, they're facts, it's a fact that the famine wasn't initiated by the British, in the same way that however much the pc brigade in America disliked the government response to Hurricane Katrina (some even calling it "genocide" against black people) nonetheless the fact that they didn't initiate the hurricane is not a matter that's up for debate, there are not two sides to it.

Again as regards the Empire, you avoided my point entirely, I said relatively better; now do you actually contest my point that former British colonies, taken as a whole, are not far better off than Spanish or French ones?

Treffie
02-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Again as regards the Empire, you avoided my point entirely, I said relatively better; now do you actually contest my point that former British colonies, taken as a whole, are not far better off than Spanish or French ones?

As a rule, yes of course, they have faired much better especially if we include the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But we seem to be missing the point here, we're discussing Ireland and the different theories that are involved with the famine. If in your opinion you believe that Britain didn't instigate the famine, (I am still open minded, btw) have you ever considered the fact Britain may have taken advantage of the situation?

We weren't angels when we were at our peak, take the opium trade in China for instance, or Sudan (included in clip).

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmtfy3BQwE