Does the Church have too much power in Italy?

[Foxy]

In my opinion the Church of Rome has got too much power in the political and in the scientific field. I think not only to the Democristian party, which has all the right to exist, but I think also of the way it influences the decisions of other political party and of what the priests do at mess, trying to influence catholics to give a certain vote rather than an other during referendums, and I also think to those little lobbies like "CL" (Comunione e Liberazione) which has strong power in the universities and in public sectors.
CL is indeed based on the strong propension of its members to be active in the society and in the institutions (for me it is worse than a mafia):

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunione_e_Liberazione (italian) - read in particular the paragraph about school and university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_and_Liberation (English)

I personally think that the Church is weaking many aspects of Italy: its scientifical research, its social progression (the role of woman, themes like abortion and divorce, the nuclear, gay marriages) and even the art (how many times were some artists like Dario Fo censored bu the Church??). I think that without Church, Italy would be far more developed, instead we are at the moment far behind a lot of other European countries and are going even worse.
I have the impression that the Church wants to enter in every aspect of life of the single person, influencing every her/his decision, making a great damage to Italy.
What's your opinion?

-I'd like to open a poll about this-

In the editorial field, CL owns "Tracce", an editorial house which pulish books in 11 languages, including Japanese and Russian.

[Murphy]

So basically.. you're allowed to let your absence of Catholic beliefs sway your political opinions, but Catholics should not be allowed to let their existent Catholic beliefs sway their political opinions?

[San Galgano]

In my opinion the Church of Rome has got too much power in the political and in the scientific field. I think not only to the Democristian party, which has all the right to exist, but I think also of the way it influences the decisions of other political party and of what the priests do at mess, trying to influence catholics to give a certain vote rather than an other during referendums, and I also think to those little lobbies like "CL" (Comunione e Liberazione) which has strong power in the universities and in public sectors.
CL is indeed based on the strong propension of its members to be active in the society and in the institutions (for me it is worse than a mafia):

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunione_e_Liberazione (italian) - read in particular the paragraph about school and university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_and_Liberation (English)

I personally think that the Church is weaking many aspects of Italy: its scientifical research, its social progression (the role of woman, themes like abortion and divorce, the nuclear, gay marriages) and even the art (how many times were some artists like Dario Fo censored bu the Church??). I think that without Church, Italy would be far more developed, instead we are at the moment far behind a lot of other European countries and are going even worse.
I have the impression that the Church wants to enter in every aspect of life of the single person, influencing every her/his decision, making a great damage to Italy.
What's your opinion?

-I'd like to open a poll about this-

In the editorial field, CL owns "Tracce", an editorial house which pulish books in 11 languages, including Japanese and Russian.

Yes.

But leave alone Dario Fo and his cuban way to think about a state, and gay marriages that have nothing to do with the progress of societies.

[antonio]

Spanish church of Rome lacks this power and it's constantly bashed from politicians, mass media (f.e. 5p.m. at a moderate socialdemocratic channed, an old video showing how to cook a crossed Christ was broadcasted), internet users, etc...so my advice for her Italian counterpart is to retain all the power she can in order to used it on deffensive circunstances.

[Korbis]

Spanish church is dead.

Since it has been the cradle of the Inquisition and the ideological base where Franco builded his regime upon all the attempts to raise its popularity over the youth and middle age spaniards are destined to fail.

[Murphy]

Since it has been the cradle of the Inquisition and the ideological base where Franco builded his regime upon all the attempts to raise its popularity over the youth and middle age spaniards are destined to fail.

The Church in Spain traditionally sided with Carlist philosophy however, a philosophy that opposed the centralised government of Franco. Of course the Church did side with Franco but lets be honest here.. it was either Franco or the Red Terror.

[antonio]

Since it has been the cradle of the Inquisition

It was the church of Castile. Probably politically induced. In fact, kings of Aragon tried to defend their heretical vassals of Provence against the Frenchs.


and the ideological base where Franco builded his regime upon all the attempts to raise its popularity over the youth and middle age spaniards are destined to fail.


After your words, it's like Franco's regime victimized more youth and middle age people than older ones. Younger generations which at least till now, lived very well (besides political but gentle brainwashes on early events) after the stabilized economy of later Francoism based on the labour sacrifice of their olders (I am not to bet for a better situation on victory of the Revolutionary Left hegemonical of Republican side) Anycase the last years destruction of the good things that Franco's regime left: security (based on the deep terror at punishment of professional criminals to commit crimes) and a disciplinate, selective and paired (in fact thougher than European counterparts) education, has affected equally to all the age groups you cited: you've just to question an ancient about the comparison between the security he feel on the streets today and what he felt 30 years ago.

Ps. EGB (after Educacion General Basica, the Primary education system stablished by late Francoism) (BTW the one which culturized me), is usually confronted against socialist reforming law called LOGSE in order to bashing the later. Well, to be more accurate, the bashing (Spain it's a very ad-hominem society) more against law itself, is against the poorly educated and culturized children counted as its victims, for example, it's a commonplace insult on Spanish Internet: "tú eres una víctima de la LOGSE" (you're a LOGSE victim)...well, with that I think all've been said.

[Foxy]

So basically.. you're allowed to let your absence of Catholic beliefs sway your political opinions, but Catholics should not be allowed to let their existent Catholic beliefs sway their political opinions?

I don't like that the Church uses lobbies like CL to control istitutions. I have experienced it by first person in my class, if you were not catholic like me you could have big troubles, teachers looked at you with hostility, the other schoolmates belonging to CL excluded you. Sometimes I hated Italy very much for this situation. The same is said by every person who lives in Italy and is not catholic. CL is not a catholic group, it is a catholic extremists group. If a member of CL stays with a boy/girl who doesn't accept to enter it, in many cases the couple split, and so on. :rolleyes2:
An other exemple: I know a group if CL members who attemp my university. They don't take home with people who are not members of CL and are able to obtain houses to a cheaper price.
Say what you want, but I think this is oscurantism.
It's disgusting.

[antonio]

I don't like that the Church uses lobbies like CL to control istitutions. I have experienced it by first person in my class, if you were not catholic like me you could have big troubles, teachers looked at you with hostility, the other schoolmates belonging to CL excluded you. Sometimes I hated Italy very much for this situation. The same is said by every person who lives in Italy and is not catholic. CL is not a catholic group, it is a catholic extremists group. If a member of CL stays with a boy/girl who doesn't accept to enter it, in many cases the couple split, and so on. :rolleyes2:
An other exemple: I know a group if CL members who attemp my university. They don't take home with people who are not members of CL and are able to obtain houses to a cheaper price.
Say what you want, but I think this is oscurantism.
It's disgusting.

You will be wellcome at Spain, the former Hispania, cradle of prominent Emperors like Trajano, a similar climate, language, etc...and here you don't have neither the need of overreact against that state of things nor the hate feelings on your own country...in fact, maybe you'll start to long it. BTW have you ever seen the Italian film titled "Viva Zapatero"? For many of us, Spaniards, its pretty hilarious...by just knowing the title.

And what about the Finnish mother which appealed against the presence of a crucifix on the not Finnish but Italian classroom of her son, trying to make prevail her single will against the majority of Italian parents which support it pressence? Dont you feel it disgusting? Do you hate Italy for her final success? Or Finland, maybe?

[Foxy]

You will be wellcome at Spain, the former Hispania, cradle of prominent Emperors like Trajano, a similar climate, language, etc...and here you don't have neither the need of overreact against that state of things nor the hate feelings on your own country...in fact, maybe you'll start to long it. BTW have you ever seen the Italian film titled "Viva Zapatero"? For many of us, Spaniards, its pretty hilarious...by just knowing the title.

And what about the Finnish mother which appealed against the presence of a crucifix on the not Finnish but Italian classroom of her son, trying to make prevail her single will against the majority of Italian parents which support it pressence? Dont you feel it disgusting? Do you hate Italy for her final success? Or Finland, maybe?

I think that in a public school no religious symbol should be affixed in respect of the neutrality of the place. Anyway for me there is no problem if people want to mantain the crucifix. The problems are others.
To be precise - you should be- she hadn't success. Politicians replayed that they would not remove the symbol of Italy (lol! Of Italy!!) and the crucifix is still there. The crucifix, anyway, was not in classrooms until Mussolini put it there. Just after the reunification, the king said that school is laic. Post Mussolini oscurantism.
However I am definitely going to move away, becouse at the moment the political situation of Italy is horrid and the new generation is growing up even worse. It's a pity becouse Italy produces one of the highest number of scientists and artists of the world, but most of them (if not all) emigrate becouse here they have not an easy life.
Spain is catholic too, but it lives the Church as a reflex. In Italy, well, we have the Pope at home...

[Korbis]

Italians seem to take this thing of catholicism way too seriously. Even more than the most backward spaniards, whom always treated religion as a political tool.

Remember the Borgias (first Spaniards to rule the vatican)? They knew it well. So did emperor Charles V when he ordered the sack of Rome and imprisonment of the former Pope Clement after the guy acted so cocky.

[San Galgano]

Italians seem to take this thing of catholicism way too seriously. Even more than the most backward spaniards, whom always treated religion as a political tool.
No, this is a subjective matter. Most of italians don't care at all about chatolic church, and if it was not for a strong identity linked to cultural roots in which church has a big part of, nobody would call italians too seriously tied with chatolicism.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Well RomanQueen, there have been various responses to this problem over the ages.

I think that the best method is to strengthen civil society outwith the Church, rather than give these groups like the Jesuits (or whatever) any of one's precious time, money or energy.

Furthermore, why does it always have to boil down to whether one is or is not a Roman Catholic?

[Foxy]

No, this is a subjective matter. Most of italians don't care at all about chatolic church, and if it was not for a strong identity linked to cultural roots in which church has a big part of, nobody would call italians too seriously tied with chatolicism.

It is not always true, mate. I suppose it is true in the case of Tuscany, where you live, which historically is a "red region" and is the enemy for exellence of the Pope. But in central Italy (ex State of the Church) people are closed like hell. Abruzzo isn't an ex Church's territory, but due to its closeness to Lazio we had strong influences here too. It is not a case, I think, that central Italy has less artists and scientists than any other region (Tuscany obviously excluded) and the few who are, usually are very demochristian-oriented.
CL is an exemple, but Gesuites are still very strong too.
I have a strong certain that in my university CL is strong, same worths for other universities. At Campus Biomedico of Rome to enter you must be of a catholic ideology.
http://www.unicampus.it/mission-storia/la-scienza-per-l-uomo-la-nostra-mission
This page is the official site page of Campus BioMedico of Rome where are explained the mission and purpose of such campus:
Si prende cura del paziente nell'unità dei suoi bisogni materiali e spirituali, secondo una concezione della vita aperta alla trascendenza. (translation= it takes care of the patient, of both his material and spiritual needs, in a concept of the life opened to the trascendence). I remember that we are speaking of a university which forms doctors, surgeons and engeneers, not priests.
1988 - Mons. Àlvaro Del Portillo, Prelato dell'Opus Dei, : the campus was suggested by a member of the Opus Dei.
In theory the future patients of these doctors won't receive some services like abortion pills, euthanasia, abortive operations, ecc.ecc., becouse the campus forms also the ideology of the personal.
I think science and ethic are too much mixed in Italy.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I have a strong certain that in my university CL is strong, same worths for other universities. At Campus Biomedico of Rome to enter you must be of a catholic ideology.

http://www.unicampus.it/mission-storia/la-scienza-per-l-uomo-la-nostra-mission

This page is the official site page of Campus BioMedico of Rome where are explained the mission and purpose of such campus:

Si prende cura del paziente nell'unità dei suoi bisogni materiali e spirituali, secondo una concezione della vita aperta alla trascendenza.

(translation= it takes care of the patient, of both his material and spiritual needs, in a concept of the life opened to the trascendence).



I think that is a good motto, and I would prefer that sort of environment over an extreme secularist one.


I remember that we are speaking of a university which forms doctors, surgeons and engeneers, not priests.
1988 - Mons. Àlvaro Del Portillo, Prelato dell'Opus Dei, : the campus was suggested by a member of the Opus Dei.
In theory the future patients of these doctors won't receive some services like abortion pills, euthanasia, abortive operations, ecc.ecc., becouse the campus forms also the ideology of the personal.
I think science and ethic are too much mixed in Italy.

That may be, but generally speaking science and secularism are too much mixed the world over.

If we believe that we are mere biomechanical machines, and not souls, then the whole approach to healing is shallow. I would not want a doctor who thought that I was a mere physical being.

[Foxy]

I think that is a good motto, and I would prefer that sort of environment over an extreme secularist one.



That may be, but generally speaking science and secularism are too much mixed the world over.

If we believe that we are mere biomechanical machines, and not souls, then the whole approach to healing is shallow. I would not want a doctor who thought that I was a mere physical being.

I hope only that he will cure you with medicines and not with a esorcism. Esorcisms work according to the Church, but I ask myself if there's a mad with a decent cultural level who still belives in them...
And, oh, it's easy to speak when you live in England, where these matters have been overpassed centuries ago.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I hope only that he will cure you with medicines and not with a esorcism. Esorcisms work according to the Church, but I ask myself if there's a mad with a decent cultural level who still belives in them...
And, oh, it's easy to speak when you live in England, where these matters have been overpassed centuries ago.

Yes, I do appreciate that, and I think that it is pretty sad that you have to put up with zealots going around telling people that they can only experience a connection with the divine if they are Roman Catholic etc.

It simply is not true and these falsehoods do a lot of damage.

[Foxy]

Yes, I do appreciate that, and I think that it is pretty sad that you have to put up with zealots going around telling people that they can only experience a connection with the divine if they are Roman Catholic etc.

It simply is not true and these falsehoods do a lot of damage.

Never said that only catholic can experience connection with the divine. But for protestants the relations with God is private, for Catholics you need a medium (the priest).
I do appreciate protestantism, for the truth, i find it more spiritual and less gerarchic. But for me first it comes the reason, than all the rest, so France beats all becouse they had the illuminism.

[antonio]

You cited too much CL (Communione e Liberazione, I suppose). If they are another Opus Dei and they have all the power you say, then Italian society, Italian university and even Italian church, they all really have a great problem: since I had 14-15 years I stared them at suspicion, but things are even worse just by reading ex-member truthfull testimonies. The most repugnant thing they've is that the're basically a real-life jerarquized (hence antievangelic) organization, so, if you get in when you was, f.e. a working-class teen girl, they do not even bother to educate you to get the most from you (in case, of course, you'd the potential) , no, they started from the very first time (by inscripting them in a second-class auxiliar cathegory with no promotion allowed) without the minumum ponder of her qualities, a ruthless laboral explotation at their student or ancient residences (as janitors, cleaners...) of such persons which with great faith on God resists far beyond of what they would do in a regular job. And going down to the concrete, just two pearls: first one, the caring presents from their humble families have to be donated to the Opus (for not to break poor vote) and second, till early 80s when government forced Opus to do that: these people were not include in Social Security system.

Ps. Sadly enough, Opus Dei, does not cheat nobody, for example, these poor girls where registered as members from the start in a different lower cathegory than standard one.

Ps2. I was once contacted, but, I did not assist to the "entrance" meeting, so I never said no to the Opus Dei, although, the meantime week I'd decided not to assist to talk with the Opus Deist Parson of my church, I made a sort of compilation about all the little fragments I prev know about them, to think about them, to try to compose a whole image from them, to confront them with Scriptures,etc...and finally I decided not only to keep myself radically away from them (decision also facilitated by the fact I was always too much lone wolf who never before and after being involved in no organization), but even developed a new little antipathy about them, sadly confirmed and amplified with the pass of the years.

[Aemma]

In my opinion the Church of Rome has got too much power in the political and in the scientific field. I think not only to the Democristian party, which has all the right to exist, but I think also of the way it influences the decisions of other political party and of what the priests do at mess, trying to influence catholics to give a certain vote rather than an other during referendums, and I also think to those little lobbies like "CL" (Comunione e Liberazione) which has strong power in the universities and in public sectors.
CL is indeed based on the strong propension of its members to be active in the society and in the institutions (for me it is worse than a mafia):

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comunione_e_Liberazione (italian) - read in particular the paragraph about school and university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_and_Liberation (English)

I personally think that the Church is weaking many aspects of Italy: its scientifical research, its social progression (the role of woman, themes like abortion and divorce, the nuclear, gay marriages) and even the art (how many times were some artists like Dario Fo censored bu the Church??). I think that without Church, Italy would be far more developed, instead we are at the moment far behind a lot of other European countries and are going even worse.
I have the impression that the Church wants to enter in every aspect of life of the single person, influencing every her/his decision, making a great damage to Italy.
What's your opinion?

-I'd like to open a poll about this-
In the editorial field, CL owns "Tracce", an editorial house which pulish books in 11 languages, including Japanese and Russian.

I've added a poll as requested, RQ. Please let me know if you would like to make any changes to it. :) Thanks. Great thread topic btw! :)

[manu]

yes, the Catholic Curch is hugely influent in Italy, they have plenty of assets and real estate properties and from economic power comes political power.
Luckily the large part of our population is secularized or at least not practicing.

[Foxy]

I've added a poll as requested, RQ. Please let me know if you would like to make any changes to it. :) Thanks. Great thread topic btw! :)

Thank you very much Aemma, you have been very polite. It's ok this way, there are all the options ;)

[Korbis]

What are the views of Lega Nord about the Church ? if they finnally get their own way and secede from Italy would they keep their allegiances?

[Foxy]

What are the views of Lega Nord about the Church ? if they finnally get their own way and secede from Italy would they keep their allegiances?

They agree in many cases, becouse political parties here, especially the right oriented, need the Church support to obtain more votes.
At the beginnings Lega Nord seemed in favour of protestantism, but with the time it supported in various occasions the Church's choises.

[San Galgano]

What are the views of Lega Nord about the Church ? if they finnally get their own way and secede from Italy would they keep their allegiances?

They don't want to secede but they want a strong fiscal federalism(as many italians want too) and the church is considered too much a centralized entity to fit the Lega nord purposes. Though Church is seen as the last oupost against islamization especially in its "extremists" cardinals that sometimes pop up affirming strongly the christian legacy of Italy.
There is a love-hate between Lega Nord and Church then. Let's say that Lega nord party loves when the Church uses its extremist dogmas(No to abortion, no to other faiths and so on) and lot less when it spreads evangelic and franciscan sentiments.

Basically they would like a federalist faith too.:D

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Spanish church is dead.

Since it has been the cradle of the Inquisition and the ideological base where Franco builded his regime upon all the attempts to raise its popularity over the youth and middle age spaniards are destined to fail.

Did not realize that

[Murphy]

I personally say we reverse the revolution that swept Italy in the 1800s. Restore the old Italian States.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Well RomanQueen, there have been various responses to this problem over the ages.

I think that the best method is to strengthen civil society outwith the Church, rather than give these groups like the Jesuits (or whatever) any of one's precious time, money or energy.

Furthermore, why does it always have to boil down to whether one is or is not a Roman Catholic?

Did you know that the Jesuits were and still are the front runners in excellence
http://www.jesuitnola.org/about/aboutindex.htm

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/jmac/sj/sjgeom.htm
Jesuit inventions

(http://www.jesuitnola.org/about/aboutindex.htm)

[Korbis]

They were the first fighters for the human rights of the beaners in the 16th century New World, as well.

Its for them they have millions of niggers in America, since the jesuit efforts made the european rulers banned the enslavery with amerindians and encouraged the massive trade with blacks.

[Arrow Cross]

It certainly has a too big mouth when it comes to whinning about the treatment of non-White immigrant scum.

[San Galgano]

It certainly has a too big mouth when it comes to whinning about the treatment of non-White immigrant scum.

A thing that it is intrinsic in the nature of Church to defend non-white immigrant scums even if we can disagree with.

It is a lot worse when it is the UE to force us to welcome non-white scums, given the only economic function of that useless entity.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

They were the first fighters for the human rights of the beaners in the 16th century New World, as well.

Its for them they have millions of niggers in America, since the jesuit efforts made the european rulers banned the enslavery with amerindians and encouraged the massive trade with blacks.

Hey ,I can't help they suffer from tropical madness

' psychological disorders that can occur in people who reside in the tropics, loneliness and monotony '

[poiuytrewq0987]

I personally say we reverse the revolution that swept Italy in the 1800s. Restore the old Italian States.

Balkanization of Europe is inevitable! :evil

[Foxy]

They were the first fighters for the human rights of the beaners in the 16th century New World, as well.

Its for them they have millions of niggers in America, since the jesuit efforts made the european rulers banned the enslavery with amerindians and encouraged the massive trade with blacks.

I agree, indeed this was one of the first origin of the disputes between Lega Nord, which is a strong opponent of immigration, and the Church. At the end Lega Nord still promote an anti-immigration policy, but about other themes it is in favour of the Church. For istance it agreed with the Church that on the future European Costitution it should be written that Europe is based on Christian fundaments (till here I agree), but it supported the Church also on other themes that should remain laic, like the crucifix in the public schools (I agree if the crucifix stays in the catholic schools, but public schools should be neutral).


Balkanization of Europe is inevitable! :evil

Tha Balkans are the last of our problems and the attacks towards Albaneses start to sound a bit old-fashioned here. The hot-themes right now are Roma gyspies and what to do with their camps, muslims and Romanians (though for me they are being a bit too target. For me they don't costitute such a problem and I think that common people often confuse them with Romas)

[poiuytrewq0987]

Tha Balkans are the last of our problems and the attacks towards Albaneses start to sound a bit old-fashioned here. The hot-themes right now are Roma gyspies and what to do with their camps, muslims and Romanians (though for me they are being a bit too target. For me they don't costitute such a problem and I think that common people often confuse them with Romas)

No, I didn't mean that. Balkanization means:


to divide (a country, territory, etc.) into small, quarrelsome, ineffectual (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Balkanization) states. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Balkanization)

Division of a place or country into several small political units, often unfriendly to one another. The term balkanization comes from the name of the Balkan Peninsula (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Balkan+Peninsula), which was divided into several small nations in the early twentieth century.

[Wyn]

The hot-themes right now are Roma gyspies

When we visited Italy my girlfriend was told to "watch out" because "we have gypsies" by the receptionist when we were asking for directions at reception. :eek: :D

[Foxy]

When we visited Italy my girlfriend was told to "watch out" because "we have gypsies" by the receptionist when we were asking for directions at reception. :eek: :D

Yes, the government is taking in consideration to dismember a Roma camp in Milan whose conditions are disgusting.

http://www.nonremarecontro.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/nomadi.jpg

But the phenomena regards variouse other localities. In my city the mayor married a Roma woman some decades ago and gifted houses to Roma families, litterary appesting the city. Now we have entire boroughs where Italians don't dare to enter, and the worst thing is that we pay taxes and contributions for them too, while they live without working and have healthcare and free houses :mad:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes, the government is taking in consideration to dismember a Roma camp in Milan whose conditions are disgusting.

But the phenomena regards variouse other localities. In my city the mayor married a Roma woman some decades ago and gifted houses to Roma families, litterary appesting the city. Now we have entire boroughs where Italians don't dare to enter, and the worst thing is that we pay taxes and contributions for them too, while they live without working and have healthcare and free houses :mad:

Oh yes, the lovely gypsies. They litter Skoplje's city center. :coffee: Everyday they always go to the stone bridge and try to sell knockoff goods to pedestrians.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/gypsykidmuggers.jpg?t=1285502836

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/DSCN1072.jpg?t=1285502932

[Korbis]

Are those Romanian gypsies? They seem substantially different to those we have in Spain, whom theoretically came from India more than 5 centuries ago. We have some romanians as well. I wonde which one of both subtypes are the worst.

[Foxy]

Are those Romanian gypsies? They seem substantially different to those we have in Spain, whom theoretically came from India more than 5 centuries ago. We have some romanians as well. I wonde which one of both subtypes are the worst.

Indeed Roma gyspies are different from gitanes. I think in Spain there are gitanes. My father visited Andalusia and saw gitanes and said that they are different indeed. Most of them are like norma people, live in houses and are clean. Romas are from Romania, but originary from India and are dirty, nomades / seminomades, and live of thefs, alms and usury. Where I live women ask charity, children rob or make little thefs. We call them also "pigri" (=lazies), becouse they have money (some of them also own mercedes) but don't work. They prefer to make usury, indeed we also call "pigro" everybody who makes usury.
A bastard race, really. And the medias also try to move us showing as imagines of little gyspies crying in barracks.

[San Galgano]

but it supported the Church also on other themes that should remain laic, like the crucifix in the public schools (I agree if the crucifix stays in the catholic schools, but public schools should be neutral)

It should be an italians' decision to allow or not crucifix in public places and not because of the first Muslim opposing it to decide about.
That's what Lega North party wants. A demagogic and hypocrite choice by them but worths it all since we are dealing with muslims who want that crux replaced by Kuran, and not for a secular state.

[Foxy]

It should be an italians' decision to allow or not crucifix in public places and not because of the first Muslim opposing it to decide about.
That's what Lega North party wants. A demagogic and hypocrite choice by them but worths it all since we are dealing with muslims who want that crux replaced by Kuran, and not for a secular state.

The request to take the crucifix off was made by a Finnish woman, not by a muslim, and I think that in a public school no religious sign should stay, becouse the public school in Italy is laic. The crucifix was put in public schools during Mussolini's regime. Before, during the kingdom, there were no religious symbols. It is not a point "islam vs christianism" but "laicism vs oscurantism". I think that laicism has been a conquest in Europe. I don't support islam, absolutely not. But I don't want a theologic state, though christian, either.

[San Galgano]

The request to take the crucifix off was made by a Finnish woman, not by a muslim, and I think that in a public school no religious sign should stay, becouse the public school in Italy is laic. The crucifix was put in public schools during Mussolini's regime. Before, during the kingdom, there were no religious symbols. It is not a point "islam vs christianism" but "laicism vs oscurantism". I think that laicism has been a conquest in Europe. I don't support islam, absolutely not. But I don't want a theologic state, though christian, either.

It's not important who was to ask the crucifix taken away. It is a matter of who rules Italy and who decide over it, be them finnish or muslims or Ue(which Lega North fights since ever)and this is the main purpose of the fight of Lega North. I have seen many times Lega north's adversitings such as "i'm the boss in my house".


I think you are taking too seriously this thing of the church anyway. In the most secularized regions of Italy, church doesn't rule at all, so it's up to you and your people to get rid of the Church and its oscurantism(an anachronistic term in my opinion).
Crucifix is only a cultural symbol today, and we can't get it erased from our life since it is part of our history from 2000 years.
It would be like erasing roman calendar or roman laws because created in a pagan time and we are now secularized.

Tuscany has been able during centuries to get rid of Church i can't see why you couldn't.
I see the power of Church in some regions as a weak will by their inhabitants more than a forced imposition.

[San Galgano]

Anyway there have been also that idiot of Adel Smith to ask the crucifix taken down, not only the finnish woman.

[Foxy]

It's not important who was to ask the crucifix taken away. It is a matter of who rules Italy and who decide over it, be them finnish or muslims or Ue(which Lega North fights since ever)and this is the main purpose of the fight of Lega North. I have seen many times Lega north's adversitings such as "i'm the boss in my house".


I think you are taking too seriously this thing of the church anyway. In the most secularized regions of Italy, church doesn't rule at all, so it's up to you and your people to get rid of the Church and its oscurantism(an anachronistic term in my opinion).
Crucifix is only a cultural symbol today, and we can't get it erased from our life since it is part of our history from 2000 years.
It would be like erasing roman calendar or roman laws because created in a pagan time and we are now secularized.

Tuscany has been able during centuries to get rid of Church i can't see why you couldn't.
I see the power of Church in some regions as a weak will by their inhabitants more than a forced imposition.

If you say that crucifix is the cultural symbol of Italy you are saying that Italy is theologic. You want a cultural symbol? Ok, put the flag of Italy in the classrooms,then, like they made in the USA and sing the anthem. I think it is more rational and more cultural , as many people know the ave maria but not the national anthem.

[San Galgano]

If you say that crucifix is the cultural symbol of Italy you are saying that Italy is theologic. You want a cultural symbol? Ok, put the flag of Italy in the classrooms,then, like they made in the USA and sing the anthem. I think it is more rational and more cultural , as many people know the ave maria but not the national anthem.

Apart all this anti-clericalism...why does the crucifix bothers you too much?


How comes it never created me any problem? Do you think that a little symbol like that could change the bad idea i have of many(not all) people of the Church or the good idea i have of some?

I could ask you the same question about the flag anyway. Why a northern italian should want the italian flag or sing the national anthem if they are clearly anti-Rome?

These things don't bother me at all, since we live in a democracy and i can choose the way i like.
A little crucifix will not change anything in my choices, save if i don't choose to give it more power than it really has.

[Foxy]

Apart all this anti-clericalism...why does the crucifix bothers you too much?


How comes it never created me any problem? Do you think that a little symbol like that could change the bad idea i have of many(not all) people of the Church or the good idea i have of some?

I could ask you the same question about the flag anyway. Why a northern italian should want the italian flag or sing the national anthem if they are clearly anti-Rome?

These things don't bother me at all, since we live in a democracy and i can choose the way i like.
A little crucifix will not change anything in my choices, save if i don't choose to give it more power than it really has.

You are wrong, San Galgano, it bothers me not at all, but if you ask me my opinion I think it should be avoited. And tha flag is something that it is written in our costitution. I think that if Northern Italians don't want the Italian flag they first must pay all the debts they have with Abruzzo, I speak of the hundreds of ectars of woods that Piemonteses cut to obtain wood for northern factories in 1800, then they have to pay for all the Abruzzeses they killed, and I speak of all the young men who were hung becouse they fought for the indipendence of Abruzzo as a territory of the Borbonic Crown.
I'd remember Bossi that Abruzzo did't want the reunification , NORTHERNS made Italy and now they want to destroy it. Well, they cannot do always the good and bad, mate. No!
For these causes, flag does not equal crucifix.

[San Galgano]

You are wrong, San Galgano, it bothers me not at all, but if you ask me my opinion I think it should be avoited. And tha flag is something that it is written in our costitution. I think that if Northern Italians don't want the Italian flag they first must pay all the debts they have with Abruzzo, I speak of the hundreds of ectars of woods that Piemonteses cut to obtain wood for northern factories in 1800, then they have to pay for all the Abruzzeses they killed, and I speak of all the young men who were hung becouse they fought for the indipendence of Abruzzo as a territory of the Borbonic Crown.
I'd remember Bossi that Abruzzo did't want the reunification , NORTHERNS made Italy and now they want to destroy it. Well, they cannot do always the good and bad, mate. No!
For these causes, flag does not equal crucifix.


So if the crucifix had been part of the constitution it would be magically a good thing and should be accepted by the italians like the flag?

Then i come to the conclusion that only italians are responsable of the great importance they give to crucifix and not the Church to force them to like it since there isn't even the need to put it in the constitution to worship it.

To me this issue doesn't exist until one have his wish to consider the crucifix only a symbol. The power of Church is only in someone's mind.

[Foxy]

So if the crucifix had been part of the constitution it would be magically a good thing and should be accepted by the italians like the flag?

Then i come to the conclusion that only italians are responsable of the great importance they give to crucifix and not the Church to force them to like it since there isn't even the need to put it in the constitution to worship it.

To me this issue doesn't exist until one have his wish to consider the crucifix only a symbol. The power of Church is only in someone's mind.

So don't you see that the Church is Italy is more influent than in any other Western country? Church = Vatican, a foreign State which behaves like it was Italy itself. Italy pays de facto taxes to the Vatican, by the donation of the 8 %0, that a lot of Italians give the Church without thinking. Vatican City in 2004 received 951,5 millions Euros only from the Italian State. We are in the same situation where foreign princes were in the Middle Age, before Protestants got their balls broken and rebelled.
Of this money, Church uses only 15% of it for humanitarian missions, 85% is used for its sustenance and the nutrition of its apparat.
Italians pay every year an istitution to interfere in Italian politics and decisions. Yes, Italians are free to donate the 8%0 to an other religious confessions, like Valdese Church (but I'ms ure that 99% of Italians finance the Catholic Church) but you should know that in Italy the relations between the State and the Vatican are regulated by the Lateranensis Pacts, that de facto reduce the freedoms if the Italian State.
Besides I don't understand why Italians MUST pay their 8%0 to a religiouse Church. I am atheist and don't want to fiance any Church.



***For the moment I'd give my 8%0 to the Buddhist or Evangelic Church, but I'd like to know if abroad people are forced to pay something to the religiouse institutions.

[San Galgano]

Yes, Italians are free to donate the 8%0 to an other religious confessions, like Valdese Church (but I'ms ure that 99% of Italians finance the Catholic Church)
This is the answer. Why italians should finance Church if they don't like this?
Blame italians first. Nobody force them to finance Church today.



but you should know that in Italy the relations between the State and the Vatican are regulated by the Lateranensis Pacts, that de facto reduce the freedoms if the Italian State.



Lateranensis pact were recognized in the constitution in 1948 and revised later as a weaker part of the constitution which can be changed with a mutual accord between Church and State or with a strength's action modifying the constitution. In any case it's only the state that should be blamed for interference of Church in the nation.