PDA

View Full Version : Why are East Asians better at math?



Dr. van Winkle
01-30-2009, 05:58 AM
Why are East Asians better at math?

Tuesday December 16, 2008 | Link (http://chineseculture.about.com/b/2008/12/16/why-are-chinese-better-at-math.htm)

Author Malcolm Gladwell (http://gladwell.com/media/index.html) has a history of thought-provoking insight in his previous books,The Tipping Point and Blink. Now he's tackling another fascinating subject: success, in his latest work, Outliers.

I got and immediately ravenously poured through Outliers last week. His premise is finding out why some people in society seem to succeed above others. One chapter titled "Rice Paddies and Math Tests" seemed especially relevant to Chinese culture. Here's an excerpt:

"Take a look at the following list of numbers: 4, 8, 5, 3, 9, 7, 6. Read them out loud. Now look away and spend twenty seconds memorizing that sequence before saying them out loud again. If you speak English, you have about a 50 percent chance of remembering that sequence perfectly. If you're Chinese, though, you're almost certain to get it right every time."

The reason behind this, Gladwell writes, is because humans can store digits in a memory loop that last only about two seconds. In Chinese languages, numbers are shorter, allowing Chinese to both speak and remember those numbers in two seconds -- a fraction of the time it takes to remember those numbers in English.

Moreover, Asian languages such as Chinese, Japanese and Korean have a more logical counting system compared to the irregular ways that numerals are spoken in English. As Gladwell writes: Eleven is ten-one (十一 in Chinese), twelve is ten-two (十二) and thirteen is ten-three (十三) and so on.

Children in Asia thus learn to count faster than English-speaking children. Even fractions are easier for Asian children because they are more easily understood and conceptual. For example one-half (fifty percent) is understood as 百分之五十 (bǎi fēn zhī wǔ shí) or literally, fifty parts out of 100 parts. And because math is more easily understood, Asian children "get" math faster than their Western counterparts. This, Gladwell writes, has nothing to do with some sort of innate Asian proclivity for math.

Another great point Gladwell makes is that cultures with a history of rice cultivation also have high levels of diligence. Because rice is so labor-intensive on plots far smaller than corn or wheat for example, rice farmers have been forced to increase yields by being smarter and more innovative. As Gladwell writes:

"Working in a rice field is ten to twenty times more labor intensive than working on an equivalent size corn or wheat field."

Because rice cultivation forces greater innovation, the nature of the work is far more challenging and complex. It's also more meritorious, because the harder you work, the greater the harvest. That's why strict feudalism or slavery doesn't work with rice cultivation, Gladwell writes, citing China historian Kenneth Pomeranz.

Pomeranz argues that by the 14th and 15th centuries, landlords in central and southern China had a nearly hands-off role with their tenants, collecting only a fixed amount and letting farmers keep whatever yields they had left over. Farmers had a stake in their harvest, leading to greater diligence and success.

Gladwell argues that this belief in hard work carries over in Asian immigrant cultures, who have a reputation for being diligent and studious. While some may be offended by such a statement, Gladwell concludes that in every "success story" he has examined in his book, including people like Bill Gates and the Beatles, success was always defined as having worked far harder than their peers.

Psychonaut
01-30-2009, 06:31 AM
While Asians do have a good work ethic, I disagree with the article's assertion that their counting system is superior to ours. I'm a Chinese linguist, and I find their number system is retarded when dealing with any thing past the 1,000 digit place.

Warning: what follows is linguistic geekery :D

In Chinese, numerals from 0 to 9,999 are very similar to ours, but once you get to 10,000, things get odd. In English, we have a distinct name for number groups based on groupings of three decimal places:

Thousand 1,000
Million 1,000,000
Billion 1,000,000,000
Trillion 1,000,000,000,000
and the latin base makes this functionally infinitely expandable.

In Chinese their system is screwy and not at all geared towards large numbers:

http://www.archimedes-lab.org/images8/Numeral_chinese.gif

So, in Chinese 1,000,000 is effectively one-hundred-ten-thousands (yī bǎi wàn). 10,000,000 is one-thousand-ten-thousands (yī qiān wàn), and then all of a sudden, 100,000,000 has it's own word (yī yì). Any numbers larger than that are either counted off of the base of 100,000,000 or can use one of four large scale systems. :confused:

To boot, the Chinese do not have an indigenous system of notation capable of dealing with anything other than arithmetic, so they borrow ours for practically everything. A superior number system? I thing not. [/rant] :D

Dr. van Winkle
02-06-2009, 10:24 PM
In Chinese, numerals from 0 to 9,999 are very similar to ours, but once you get to 10,000, things get odd. In English, we have a distinct name for number groups based on groupings of three decimal places:

Thousand 1,000
Million 1,000,000
Billion 1,000,000,000
Trillion 1,000,000,000,000
and the latin base makes this functionally infinitely expandable.
In other words, it's based on number groups based on groupings of four digits (think yi wan yi).

In Japanese, larger numbers are said as follows (translated into english): 10, 10-1 (for 11), 10-2 (for 12), 10-3 (for 13), 2-10 (for 20), 3-10 (for 30) so on and so forth. The significance of this is that it more closely models the base-10 place value system. Linguistic relativists would argue that slight irregularities in the naming of numbers can lead to inefficiency when thinking about numbers. An example of irregular naming in English would be words like eleven, twelve, thirteen, twenty, thirty, seventy, whatever - they're linguistically treated as distinct, whereas in Japanese they're broken down.

There have been studies showing how Japanese children are faster than their English counterparts in place value manipulation, that this difference is by no means innate, and that it can be overcome by showing the English children the alternative way to think about larger numbers.

Psychonaut
02-06-2009, 10:40 PM
In other words, it's based on number groups based on groupings of four digits (think yi wan yi).

Yes.


In Japanese, larger numbers are said as follows (translated into english): 10, 10-1 (for 11), 10-2 (for 12), 10-3 (for 13), 2-10 (for 20), 3-10 (for 30) so on and so forth. The significance of this is that it more closely models the base-10 place value system. Linguistic relativists would argue that slight irregularities in the naming of numbers can lead to inefficiency when thinking about numbers. An example of irregular naming in English would be words like eleven, twelve, thirteen, twenty, thirty, seventy, whatever - they're linguistically treated as distinct, whereas in Japanese they're broken down.

I'm not sure I understand what's so different about that from ours. With the irregular exceptions of eleven and twelve, our counting runs along the same lines (i.e. -teen for 10s, twenty- for 20s, etc.).

Skandi
02-06-2009, 10:51 PM
I'm not sure I understand what's so different about that from ours. With the irregular exceptions of eleven and twelve, our counting runs along the same lines (i.e. -teen for 10s, twenty- for 20s, etc.).


Yes twenty, thirty, eighty, etc are just the single number with a suffix of ty on the end to indicate multiplied by 10 so they do come from the same root. it's French where I get confused after 60 that is

PS I don't know all the fancy words unlike some of you!

Birka
02-06-2009, 10:57 PM
My son goes to a very affluent, fairly up scale high school (grades 10, 11 and 12). Whenever they single out students for various academic achievements, it is almost always the children of the Asian Indian and Oriental physicians in this area. Especially the awards for math and sciences. They are a VERY small minority in this school, but this has been going on for years. I have never heard a good explanation for this.

Osprey
03-29-2012, 03:29 AM
Becauae they are the cream of crop of their nations.

Supreme American
03-29-2012, 03:33 AM
If they're better at math, why was Calculus and beyond developed by white men? I think they're not great at math at all, except perhaps at learning what we discovered.

Supreme American
03-29-2012, 03:35 AM
My son goes to a very affluent, fairly up scale high school (grades 10, 11 and 12). Whenever they single out students for various academic achievements, it is almost always the children of the Asian Indian and Oriental physicians in this area. Especially the awards for math and sciences. They are a VERY small minority in this school, but this has been going on for years. I have never heard a good explanation for this.

Higher IQ people from those countries come to the US on scholarships, etc.

guyinsf
03-29-2012, 04:34 AM
Cuz their daddies give them an abacus at the age of 4.

Sikeliot
03-29-2012, 04:42 AM
They're not. They just come from more traditional households that do not put up with shit from their kids and force them to be serious about their schoolwork. Nothing to do with their race, but their culture and parents' mindset and parenting style.

Jimlawl
03-29-2012, 04:55 AM
I agree with Clementina, getting good grades isn't exactly hard you just have to study a lot but most non-east asian teenagers just don't care because their households are more careless. From my point of view the poor Asian parents want their children to be better/richer/more educated than they were (Doctors, Lawyers, etc) while White households just don't care as long as their children pass so they can go to college with 70% average and make an average income or if they're rich, University. You don't really need to kill yourself studying to go to University but you need money which Asian parents don't, so they make that up by forcing their children to get really high marks.

Stefan
03-29-2012, 04:55 AM
It could be a difference in the education system as well. From what I've read, Asian countries focus very much on high stakes testing early on. High Schools are optional, and usually require a tuition -- yet are much harder to get into. So more pressure is put on the students to start studying early on. This is also right when the core pre-requisite skills for the more common mathematics courses like Algebra, Geometry, and the rest of high school mathematics are typically taught. Then there is far more focus on studying, with things like cram schools. So basically the education system encourages subjects that can be learned through memorization and skill techniques(problem solving), and much less focused on more subjectively defined subjects like some social studies and literature, although that is only a generalization I'm forming from what I've read and heard.

As for the students of those backgrounds in the U.S. Many still maintain these patterns and cultural traits from their parents. If their parents are successful then there is pressure to maintain that success. If their parents are not successful, then there is pressure to become successful. I remember watching a documentary in which an asian girl got something like a 770 on her literature sat(which I think is around the 97th percentile in the nation) and her mother was dissatisfied because it wasn't a perfect 800. The standards are very high.

So I think it is more a mixture of cultural traits involving motivation and high standards as well as a different method of education.

Regardless of the reason, it is quite sad how many science, engineering, and mathematics majors are foreigners(in the United States) while the humanities are over-saturated by U.S citizens.

Sikeliot
03-29-2012, 04:55 AM
Also, Asian parents are much more strict, in terms of discipline.

CelticViking
03-29-2012, 06:55 AM
Also, Asian parents are much more strict, in terms of discipline.


A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:

• attend a sleepover

• have a playdate

• be in a school play

• complain about not being in a school play

• watch TV or play computer games

• choose their own extracurricular activities

• get any grade less than an A

• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

• not play the piano or violin.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html?= no


Tiger mothers, made famous by author Amy Chua, may actually have got it all wrong.

Fiercely pushy Chinese mothers, who heap pressure on children to succeed both academically and in their leisure activities, may in fact contribute to low self-esteem and high levels of depression.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2088117/Tiger-Moms-Studies-suggest-highly-pressured-children-prone-depression-anxiety.html#ixzz1jogttAGV

Osprey
03-29-2012, 09:56 AM
Whites can do it too.
The One big thing whites have over asians is that they choose fields in which they excel.
Asians are pushed into Science and Maths blindly, whether they like it or not.
Only things why whites suck is too much pressure to socialize, to get girlfriends, lose virginity, please your peers, not be a 'nerd' and the associated bullshit.