Which country has a higher proportion of people passable throughout Europe: Sweden or Greece?

[Tooting Carmen]

In other words, do people with archetypal Nordic/Scandinavian looks or people with archetypal Mediterranean/South(eastern) European looks pass in a greater range of places in Europe?

[Berahthraban]

There are much more people in Northern (western and eastern) and Central Europe than in Southern Europe, therefore, Sweden.

[Tooting Carmen]

Anyone else?

[Milo]

Sweden IMO, since people will always allow Blonde/Blue eyed Nordics to pass in their country, and the same can't be said for Meds.

[Tooting Carmen]

Sweden IMO, since people will always allow Blonde/Blue eyed Nordics to pass in their country, and the same can't be said for Meds.

Indeed, in the alternate universe of TA, Hallstatt Nordics can pass even in Lebanon and Afghanistan, never mind Greece. xD

[Aëlwenn]

Sweden.

[Tooting Carmen]

Please don't forget to vote.

[Newsboy]

Hard to say. I voted 'Both in Equal Measure'

[crazyladybutterfly]

a lot of swedes dont look co,pletely foreign to me and i live in southern italy (obviously the saami and uber baltic type doesnt pass )
the North european look is also much more spread across europe than the med type. so the answer is obviously sweden

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's really hard to decide, both med and nordic are not very frequent types in most of European countries. In eastern, Central Europe and france they are minority

[Tooting Carmen]

It's really hard to decide, both med and nordic are not very frequent types in most of European countries. In eastern, Central Europe and france they are minority

So, inasmuch as there is a genuine 'pan-European' phenotype, would it be some sort of Alpine then?

[Tooting Carmen]

A thread I made ages ago: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?161387-Swedish-male-MEPs-and-Greek-male-MEPs-compare-and-contrast-(2nd-version)

[brennus dux gallorum]

So, inasmuch as there is a genuine 'pan-European' phenotype, would it be some sort of Alpine then?

I think yes

[Aëlwenn]

I don't talking for other countries, but in France, Atlantid type ( atlantid, north atlantid, atlanto med), alpine and sub-nordid are very common.
And i think you can more find this type in Sweden than in Greece.

[Tooting Carmen]

I don't talking for other countries, but in France, Atlantid type ( atlantid, north atlantid, atlanto med), alpine and sub-nordid are very common.
And i think you can more find this type in Sweden than in Greece.

I mostly agree, but on the other hand some Greek Pontids don't look much different from Atlanto-Meds.

[Ülev]

with all those "refugees" Sweden of course

[Aëlwenn]

I mostly agree, but on the other hand some Greek Pontids don't look much different from Atlanto-Meds.

Hmmm, so maybe both of them?^^

[brennus dux gallorum]

I don't talking for other countries, but in France, Atlantid type ( atlantid, north atlantid, atlanto med), alpine and sub-nordid are very common.
And i think you can more find this type in Sweden than in Greece.

sub-nordids yes (who are not so rare in Greece) but not the mediterranean and alpine subtypes.

[Aëlwenn]

sub-nordids yes (who are not so rare in Greece) but not the mediterranean and alpine subtypes.

I think Atlantid and North Atlantid, who are common here, are more easy to find in Sweden than in Greece.

For Alpine type, maybe Greece.

I have a greek friend, she has blue eyes and light brown hair.

[Deneb]

Both in equal measure. A lot of Swedish can't pass in Greece, but the opposite is true too.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think Atlantid and North Atlantid, who are common here, are more easy to find in Sweden than in Greece.

For Alpine type, maybe Greece.

I have a greek friend, she has blue eyes and light brown hair.

Atlandid is rare in Norway, but as far as I know not recorded in Sweden, along with other med types. But still, med in Greece is not very different from atlandid, not to mention that there is a small amount of atlandids too.

[Tooting Carmen]

Any more votes and suggestions?

[alnortedelsur]

Indeed, in the alternate universe of TA, Hallstatt Nordics can pass even in Lebanon and Afghanistan, never mind Greece. xD

No true. I have never claimed that people with too Nordid phenotypes, lik Hallstatt Nordics, would pass in Spain. And if they do, they would do as very atypical

[alnortedelsur]

With Archetypal med types you mean the most exotic/swarthy segments of the southern European populations, or just the kind of southern Europeans who could pass well in all southern Europe, but not that well in the rest of Europe??

Same question for archetypal Nordic/Scandinavian looks: do you mean the most extremely Nordic Swedish or the average Swedish??

[Tooting Carmen]

Just to clarify - these are what I'd consider to be average (or at least commonplace) types in the two respective countries: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?183738-Which-of-these-two-stereotypes-is-closer-to-the-truth-(Part-two)

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[Ouistreham]

Sweden, no doubt.
Even in places like Naples (It.) or Valencia (Sp.) you can find a tiny minority (like 1/10000 etc.) of locals who look like more-than-average quintessentially stereotypical Scandinavians.
On the other hand, North of the Alps, anyone looking like Mr Tsipras would be pigeon-holed as someone with some immigrant background.

I'm anything but a dedicated Nordicist, but it's a fact that Nordics have a defining role in European phenotypes.
White people on my book are the ones who give birth to fair-haired babies (even if hair turns brownish later).

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[brennus dux gallorum]

On the other hand, North of the Alps, anyone looking like Mr Tsipras would be pigeon-holed as someone with some immigrant background.


isn't france north of the alps?:rolleyes:

[alnortedelsur]

Sweden, no doubt.
Even in places like Naples (It.) or Valencia (Sp.) you can find a tiny minority (like 1/10000 etc.) of locals who look like more-than-average quintessentially stereotypical Scandinavians.
On the other hand, North of the Alps, anyone looking like Mr Tsipras would be pigeon-holed as someone with some immigrant background.

I'm anything but a dedicated Nordicist, but it's a fact that Nordics have a defining role in European phenotypes.
White people on my book are the ones who give birth to fair-haired babies (even if hair turns brownish later).

People like Mr Tsirpras are darker than average in Southern Europe, lol

Fair brunettes with a skin, hair, and eye pigmentation very standard and passable through a great part of Europe (like millions and millions of fair brunettes that are very common place through all of Europe, including Scandinavia) are the average in southern Europe.

[Tooting Carmen]

People like Mr Tsirpras are darker than average in Southern Europe, lol

Oh please, they get far darker than him in Greece and other Southern European countries. Do you really think he is that dark for his ethnicity? I can even show you Brits and Germans darker than him too.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201501/n_77637_1.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Alexis_Tsipras_in_Moscow_4.jpghttp://mediamass.net/jdd/public/documents/celebrities/7055.jpg

[alnortedelsur]

Oh please, they get far darker than him in Greece and other Southern European countries. Do you really think he is that dark for his ethnicity? I can even show you Brits and Germans darker than him too.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/images/news/201501/n_77637_1.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Alexis_Tsipras_in_Moscow_4.jpghttp://mediamass.net/jdd/public/documents/celebrities/7055.jpg

He is very common, but still darker than average.

I am not saying that most southern Europeans are blonde, I am just saying that the average is lighter than him: fair brunettes (not olive sinned) with more brownish hair and eyes (not that dark hair and eyes as him).

Mila Kunes and Amelia Warner would be good examples of what I talk about. Don't tell me that those two actresses are lighter than the southern Euro average, because that would be very funny.

[JMack]

Mila Kunis and Amelia Werner aren't lighter than Tsipras. And he is average for Southern Europe.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Mr tsipras is an unusuall case of Greek, phenotypically, because of his half epirot roots, he is kinda different from the stereotypical greek who represents mostly Southern-Central regions, of Southern European phenotypes. but his pigmentation is ordinary.

[alnortedelsur]

Mr tsipras is an unusuall case of Greek, phenotypically, because of his half epirot roots, he is kinda different from the stereotypical greek who represents mostly Southern-Central regions, of Southern European phenotypes. but his pigmentation is ordinary.

His pigmentation is very common and ordinary in southern Europe. I agree with that, but the southern European average is a bit lighter than him.

[Sikeliot]

Greece. Not that most pass north of the Alps but a lot of Swedes look Baltic, Finnic, or extreme Nordic which look odd even in the UK let alone in Southern Europe.

On the other hand, a non-negligible amount of Greeks look types that pass throughout Europe: Pontid, Atlanto-Med, Alpine, Dinaric. Not so for Swedes.

[EL_BARBARO]

Greece.

[Queen B]

Neither/both in equal measure.

[EL_BARBARO]

Neither/both in equal measure.


It's so remarkable to take into account that the question is quite stupid per se.

"What kind of water wets the most, sea water or lake water?"

[catgeorge]

His pigmentation is very common and ordinary in southern Europe. I agree with that, but the southern European average is a bit lighter than him.

He is not typical even for the people in his village

Tsipras in his village in Epiros


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boTMVyTF3RM&t=34s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E4RxB3T2e0

[Tooting Carmen]

Greece. Not that most pass north of the Alps but a lot of Swedes look Baltic, Finnic, or extreme Nordic which look odd even in the UK let alone in Southern Europe.

On the other hand, a non-negligible amount of Greeks look types that pass throughout Europe: Pontid, Atlanto-Med, Alpine, Dinaric. Not so for Swedes.

Both from the Swedes I have seen in photos and in real life (I visited the country in 2004) I'd say around half of them could pass fairly well in the UK, while the other half have those more foreign looks you talk about. By contrast, as I said in another thread recently, the overlap between Britain and Greece is scant.

[Sikeliot]

Both from the Swedes I have seen in photos and in real life (I visited the country in 2004) I'd say around half of them could pass fairly well in the UK, while the other half have those more foreign looks you talk about. By contrast, as I said in another thread recently, the overlap between Britain and Greece is scant.

Yes but more Greeks than Swedes would pass in southern Europe, and anything south of the Alps, Pyrenees, and Danube.

And more Greeks would pass as odd North Euros, than would Swedes as South Euros.

[TheForeigner]

I voted Sweden.

[Homie]

Most Greeks only pass in the Southern Balkan and the Southern fringles of Italy and Western Turkey, where as Swedes genetically, phenotypically have a much greater overlap with North Europeans influding Northern Germans and Dutch people.

[Sikeliot]

Most Greeks only pass in the Southern Balkan and the Southern fringles of Italy and Western Turkey, where as Swedes genetically, phenotypically have a much greater overlap with North Europeans influding Northern Germans and Dutch people.

But Swedes can rarely pass in southern Europe, so why do people focus on Greeks looking distinctly southern but not Swedes northern? There are more "dark" North Euros than there are Swedish looking southerners.

[Tooting Carmen]

But Swedes can rarely pass in southern Europe, so why do people focus on Greeks looking distinctly southern but not Swedes northern? There are more "dark" North Euros than there are Swedish looking southerners.

Because Northern and Central Europe make up the bulk of Europe, and Central Europeans like Austrians and Swiss (less so Hungarians) definitely look closer to Swedes than to Greeks.

[Tooting Carmen]

Most Greeks only pass in the Southern Balkan and the Southern fringles of Italy and Western Turkey, where as Swedes genetically, phenotypically have a much greater overlap with North Europeans influding Northern Germans and Dutch people.

Many if not most Greeks fit in Malta and Iberia too.

[Homie]

Many if not most Greeks fit in Malta and Iberia too.

There are more Swedes passing in North Italy or as an Aragonese, Basque than ethnic Greeks do.

[Sikeliot]

There are more Swedes passing in North Italy or as an Aragonese, Basque than ethnic Greeks do.

I disagree with this very much.

[Tooting Carmen]

There are more Swedes passing in North Italy or as an Aragonese, Basque than ethnic Greeks do.

LOL I wouldn't go that far. Northern Italians and NE Spaniards still look Southern European, just with more who pass further north than do, say, Calabrians or Murcians.

[Homie]

LOL I wouldn't go that far. Northern Italians and NE Spaniards still look Southern European, just with more who pass further north than do, say, Calabrians or Murcians.

Most Swedes have North-West European look. A good portion of Spainards look West European and Blonde take consider both Iberians and Swedes are descendants of Celtic tribes for most part.

[Tooting Carmen]

Most Swedes have North-West European look. A good portion of Spainards look West European and Blonde take consider both Iberians and Swedes are descendants of Celtic tribes for most part.

Swedes tend to look classically Nordic. By 'NW European', you mean more the Atlantids and Brunns commonly found in Britain, Ireland and France instead. Spanish Atlantids can sometimes crossover with their British, Irish and French counterparts, but many others have a distinct vibe of their own.

[Bell Beaker]

Lel......

Swedes and Nordics (plus most Dutch, most Germans and most Austrians and half of the Brits) in general have hardcore Nordic types than are not passable at all in many European countries. Meanwhile Med types like most Greeks have are present in all Southern Europe plus Balkans, Southern France.........

[Tooting Carmen]

Lel......

Swedes and Nordics (plus most Dutch, most Germans and most Austrians and half of the Brits) in general have hardcore Nordic types than are not passable at all in many European countries. Meanwhile Med types like most Greeks have are present in all Southern Europe plus Balkans, Southern France.........

Actually, a lot of Austrians look Alpine and Dinaric and are dark-haired, but otherwise I know what you mean.

[Bell Beaker]

Actually, a lot of Austrians look Alpine and Dinaric and are dark-haired, but otherwise I know what you mean.

This year in my College we have some Swedish/Dutch erasmus students and they are clearly different from Portuguese indigenous students.

They are tall (even the woman), light haired and pale. Even the palest Portuguese are usually more little and have other faces.

[Tooting Carmen]

This year in my College we have some Swedish/Dutch erasmus students and they are clearly different from Portuguese indigenous students.

They are tall (even the woman), light haired and pale. Even the palest Portuguese are usually more little and have other faces.

No shit Sherlock.:thumb001:

[Tooting Carmen]

This year in my College we have some Swedish/Dutch erasmus students and they are clearly different from Portuguese indigenous students.

They are tall (even the woman), light haired and pale. Even the palest Portuguese are usually more little and have other faces.

Yes, even light Iberians relatively seldom look Northern European in features.

[bozkur]

Both in equal measure

[Homie]

Well actually i was joking with the North Italians or Iberians, but i still think Swedes have a more general overlap with more Europeans as most people in Europe as you leave North of the Alps or Pyrenes tend to have Nordic/North Sea genetic influences.

[Sikeliot]

Well actually i was joking with the North Italians or Iberians, but i still think Swedes have a more general overlap with more Europeans as most people in Europe as you leave North of the Alps or Pyrenes tend to have Nordic/North Sea genetic influences.

A better question would have been, in which European countries do more people pass as Swede, and which, Greek?

This is my guess.

More like Swedes:
Ireland
UK
Netherlands
Norway
Finland
Denmark
Liechtenstein
Germany
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Russia
Belarus
Ukraine
Austria
Switzerland

More like Greeks:
Spain
France
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Italy
Malta
Albania
Bulgaria
Serbia
Bosnia
Macedonia
Croatia
Romania
Hungary

Intermediate:
Poland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Slovenia
Ukraine

[Tooting Carmen]

A better question would have been, in which European countries do more people pass as Swede, and which, Greek?

This is my guess.

More like Swedes:
Ireland
UK
Netherlands
Norway
Finland
Denmark
Liechtenstein
Germany
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Russia
Belarus
Ukraine
Austria
Switzerland

More like Greeks:
Spain
France
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Italy
Malta
Albania
Bulgaria
Serbia
Bosnia
Macedonia
Croatia
Romania
Hungary

Intermediate:
Poland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Slovenia
Ukraine

Imo France and Slovenia would be intermediate, while all the others you put as intermediate would be closer to Swedes. And for some reason you forgot to add Portugal under the Greece list.

[Sikeliot]

Imo France and Slovenia would be intermediate, while all the others you put as intermediate would be closer to Swedes. And for some reason you forgot to add Portugal under the Greece list.

The other ones I Put intermediate have closer coloring to Swedes, closer facial structure to Greece.

IMO France is closer to Greeks. Slovenians do not look like Swedes either.

But when you divide it like this, it's almost half and half.

[Tooting Carmen]

The other ones I Put intermediate have closer coloring to Swedes, closer facial structure to Greece.

IMO France is closer to Greeks. Slovenians do not look like Swedes either.

But when you divide it like this, it's almost half and half.

I actually asked once whether French people look closer to Swedes or to Greeks, remember? I think most people voted intermediate in the end. Slovenes are actually quite light and Central Euro-looking much of the time, moreover.

[Homie]

A better question would have been, in which European countries do more people pass as Swede, and which, Greek?

This is my guess.

More like Swedes:
Ireland
UK
Netherlands
Norway
Finland
Denmark
Liechtenstein
Germany
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Russia
Belarus
Ukraine
Austria
Switzerland

More like Greeks:
Spain
France
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Italy
Malta
Albania
Bulgaria
Serbia
Bosnia
Macedonia
Croatia
Romania
Hungary

Intermediate:
Poland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Slovenia
Ukraine

I agree with you with the exception of Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republik, Slovakia. - Very few Greeks can pass there while a significant portion of Swedes have a Pan European look.

If this thread was Turkey vs Sweden then Swedes would win obviously but i don't see Greece significantly different to Turkey (the Western part)

[Tooting Carmen]

but i don't see Greece significantly different to Turkey (the Western part)

Now that's surely an exaggeration too. I agree that Greeks are certainly among the darkest and most Near Eastern-influenced Europeans there are, but having visited Istanbul there is a clear difference even between Western Turks and Greeks, although as individuals a good few can crossover for sure.

[Sikeliot]

Now that's surely an exaggeration too. I agree that Greeks are certainly among the darkest and most Near Eastern-influenced Europeans there are, but having visited Istanbul there is a clear difference even between Western Turks and Greeks, although as individuals a good few can crossover for sure.

Not when you exclude Pontians, Cypriots, and islanders who, ironically, are given way more importance and weight than their share of the population.

[Sikeliot]

I agree with you with the exception of Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republik, Slovakia. - Very few Greeks can pass there while a significant portion of Swedes have a Pan European look.

If this thread was Turkey vs Sweden then Swedes would win obviously but i don't see Greece significantly different to Turkey (the Western part)


Lighter Greeks and darker Slavs can often resemble one another. Greeks, to my eyes, look halfway between Sicilians and Balkan Slavs.

[Tooting Carmen]

Lighter Greeks and darker Slavs can often resemble one another. Greeks, to my eyes, look halfway between Sicilians and Balkan Slavs.

Greeks do overlap a lot with their Albanian and Bulgarian neighbours, but not so much with other Balkanites. Serbs and Croats, for example, look noticeably lighter and more Central Euro-shifted in comparison. And even when you do take out Pontians, Cypriots and Greek islanders, Greece would still be no lighter and Northern Euro-shifted than Abruzzo and Molise at most.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks do overlap a lot with their Albanian and Bulgarian neighbours, but not so much with other Balkanites. Serbs and Croats, for example, look noticeably lighter and more Central Euro-shifted in comparison. And even when you do take out Pontians, Cypriots and Greek islanders, Greece would still be no lighter and Northern Euro-shifted than Abruzzo and Molise at most.

Actually genetically they are more northern shifted than Abruzzo and Molise. I can agree they do not look Northern European, but you will not see many Levantine or Mesopotamian faces anywhere on mainland Greece. Whatever you saw when you were in Sicily, it'd be less than that (I think you said 1 in 4 people).

[Tooting Carmen]

Actually genetically they are more northern shifted than Abruzzo and Molise. I can agree they do not look Northern European, but you will not see many Levantine or Mesopotamian faces anywhere on mainland Greece. Whatever you saw when you were in Sicily, it'd be less than that (I think you said 1 in 4 people).

I did not say 1 in 4 people. Maybe 10-15%. And what evidence is there that all of Greece is more Northern European-shifted than Abruzzo and Molise?

[Homie]

Lighter Greeks and darker Slavs can often resemble one another. Greeks, to my eyes, look halfway between Sicilians and Balkan Slavs.

Italians look more Western European than Greeks. i do agree that Greeks overlap with their Balkan neighbours much more.

[Sikeliot]

Italians look more Western European than Greeks. i do agree that Greeks overlap with their Balkan neighbours much more.

Southern Italians do not look neither eastern nor western European though, just "Southern" and some having West Asian influence. Other regions like northern Italy do overlap with say, France.

[Sikeliot]

I did not say 1 in 4 people. Maybe 10-15%. And what evidence is there that all of Greece is more Northern European-shifted than Abruzzo and Molise?

Their DNA scores?

Well my point is if 10-15% of Sicily looked Levantine or Mesopotamian, most of Greece should be under 10% is my point.

[Tooting Carmen]

Their DNA scores?

Well my point is if 10-15% of Sicily looked Levantine or Mesopotamian, most of Greece should be under 10% is my point.

But Greece (yes, even the mainland) has Anatolian and Caucasian types instead.

[Homie]

Southern Italians do not look neither eastern nor western European though, just "Southern" and some having West Asian influence. Other regions like northern Italy do overlap with say, France.

Most Italians don't consider "south italians" to be Italians as they didn't even speak Italian but Greek or Greco-Italian dialect for a long time. Most of their ancestry is Byzantine or Greek, Aberesche.

S Italians say "La Ragazza" to Greeks which means one race.

[Sikeliot]

Most Italians don't consider "south italians" to be Italians as they didn't even speak Italian but Greek or Greco-Italian dialect for a long time. Most of their ancestry is Byzantine or Greek, Aberesche.

S Italians say "La Ragazza" to Greeks which means one race.


They are not transplanted Greeks. Greeks have higher Balto-Slavic type ancestry, have no North African, and have less Levantine. If anything, the "Greeks" in Sicily were Hellenized Armenians, Syrians, and Anatolians because they are genetically not like modern day Greeks.

[Tooting Carmen]

Most Italians don't consider "south italians" to be Italians.

LOL seriously?

[Sikeliot]

But Greece (yes, even the mainland) has Anatolian and Caucasian types instead.

It's overstated. Their aggregate affinity to MENA groups is lower in genetics and thus should be in phenotype.

[Homie]

LOL seriously?

I've heard there was some racism, hatred towards Sicilians and other S Italians actually Mussolini regarded Sicilians the same as Jews and wanted to deport them to North Africa.

[Sikeliot]

I've heard there was some racism, hatred towards Sicilians and other S Italians actually Mussolini regarded Sicilians the same as Jews and wanted to deport them to North Africa.

This has nothing to do with Greece though. They may have been Greek speaking, but Sicily was like Crete or Cyprus -- a land that was Hellenized natives.

[Tooting Carmen]

I've heard there was some racism, hatred towards Sicilians and other S Italians actually Mussolini regarded Sicilians the same as Jews and wanted to deport them to North Africa.

Mussolini wasn't especially anti-Semitic until he really got entangled with Hitler - he adapted it to appease the Nazis. In fact, around a third of the Fascist Party's membership was Jewish, and Mussolini's Foreign Minister and mistress were Jews of course too.

[Bell Beaker]

I've heard there was some racism, hatred towards Sicilians and other S Italians actually Mussolini regarded Sicilians the same as Jews and wanted to deport them to North Africa.

Lol, where did you heard that?

[Tooting Carmen]

And don't forget that Anatolian-like individuals can be found even in Croatia and Serbia, never mind Greece. LOL at this notion that having some overlap with Balkanites makes Greeks less Mediterranean and peripheral European than either South Italians or Iberians.

[Sikeliot]

And don't forget that Anatolian-like individuals can be found even in Croatia and Serbia, never mind Greece. LOL at this notion that having some overlap with Balkanites makes Greeks less Mediterranean and peripheral European than either South Italians or Iberians.

No, it is not overlap with Balkanites that does this, it is their genetics. Southern Italians are in a category of their own genetically, along with Jews and Maltese as "intermediate" but this is not the case for Greeks proper, who are the southern end of the Balkan spectrum. All Balkan people have Anatolian affinity, but that is not atypical for Europe since a lot of southerners and easterners have it.

Not the case for North African or Levantine DNA.

[Tooting Carmen]

No, it is not overlap with Balkanites that does this, it is their genetics. Southern Italians are in a category of their own genetically, along with Jews and Maltese as "intermediate" but this is not the case for Greeks proper, who are the southern end of the Balkan spectrum. All Balkan people have Anatolian affinity, but that is not atypical for Europe since a lot of southerners and easterners have it.

Not the case for North African or Levantine DNA.

When will you accept that most people in the real world (quite rightly, for the most part) regard Greeks as being similar to Spaniards and Southern Italians and not Ukrainians or even Serbs?

[Sikeliot]

When will you accept that most people in the real world (quite rightly, for the most part) regard Greeks as being similar to Spaniards and Southern Italians and not Ukrainians or even Serbs?

They are closer to other Balkanites and southern Europeans both. But southern Italians are in a category of their own genetically, with Jews and Maltese, not with proper Greeks from say Epirus or Thessaly. When will you accept that? They are in different clusters!

[Tooting Carmen]

They are closer to other Balkanites and southern Europeans both. But southern Italians are in a category of their own genetically, with Jews and Maltese, not with proper Greeks from say Epirus or Thessaly. When will you accept that? They are in different clusters!

The only reason why Jews (more specifically Ashkenazim) come out as pseudo-South Italian is because they are basically Levantines who spent several centuries mixing with Germanics and Slavs. Their respective ancestries are actually quite different. And genotype=/=phenotype. When I posted the team Greece v team Portugal v team Serbia thread, more people voted for Portugal than Serbia.

[Sikeliot]

The only reason why Jews (more specifically Ashkenazim) come out as pseudo-South Italian is because they are basically Levantines who spent several centuries mixing with Germanics and Slavs. Their respective ancestries are actually quite different. And genotype=/=phenotype. When I posted the team Greece v team Portugal v team Serbia thread, more people voted for Portugal than Serbia.

I think Greeks look both South Euro and Balkanic, depending on region. The southernmost islands have a Sicilian/Calabrese/Jewish vibe also in many looks or look more Italian.

[MinervaItalica]

Most Italians don't consider "south italians" to be Italians as they didn't even speak Italian but Greek or Greco-Italian dialect for a long time. Most of their ancestry is Byzantine or Greek, Aberesche.

S Italians say "La Ragazza" to Greeks which means one race.

:picard2:

[Geni]

Greece....even Europa name is greek .....Sweden in my eyes is 1 cold country far from southern Europe ....

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think Greeks look both South Euro and Balkanic, depending on region. The southernmost islands have a Sicilian/Calabrese/Jewish vibe also in many looks or look more Italian.

forget about jewish look, in any part of Greece

in all Greek regions, less or more, look mostly like Italian, except of epirus.

balkanic comes as minority, more frequent than northwestern or northeastern look, but less frequent than italian, i would say not more frequent

Italians look more Western European than Greeks. i do agree that Greeks overlap with their Balkan neighbours much more.

I also agree about many things, related to people about whom i have no idea

Even if Greeks look "non western", they at least look non eastern European too. Now stop talking about countries you have no idea. genetically and anthropologically, as from any other sense Greeks do not overlap balkans

Lighter Greeks and darker Slavs can often resemble one another. Greeks, to my eyes, look halfway between Sicilians and Balkan Slavs.

Greeks are genetically closer to Central italy and tuscany than to Balkan slavs

[Sikeliot]

in all Greek regions, less or more, look mostly like Italian, except of epirus.


Thessaly, Macedonia, and Thrace also.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Thessaly, Macedonia, and Thrace also.

thessaly and macedonia are intermediate, from my personal experience. thrace is a completely different case, as the people are mostly pontians

but if we include central Italy, then at least thessaly is closer to Italy than to balkans

[Berahthraban]

A better question would have been, in which European countries do more people pass as Swede, and which, Greek?

This is my guess.

More like Swedes:
Ireland
UK
Netherlands
Norway
Finland
Denmark
Liechtenstein
Germany
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Russia
Belarus
Ukraine
Austria
Switzerland

More like Greeks:
Spain
France
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Italy
Malta
Albania
Bulgaria
Serbia
Bosnia
Macedonia
Croatia
Romania
Hungary

Intermediate:
Poland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Slovenia
Ukraine

How could Poles possibly be intermediate? Madness. France is also definitely without a doubt closer to Swedes on average. Exclusively Southern French might, might be intermediate. All of who you have in intermediate should be closer to Swedes, except possibly Slovenia since I know very little of them, as well as Southern/Southeastern parts of Ukraine. Many of those you have in more like Greeks should be intermediate.

[brennus dux gallorum]

How could Poles possibly be intermediate? Madness. France is also definitely without a doubt closer to Swedes on average. Exclusively Southern French might, might be intermediate. All of who you have in intermediate should be closer to Swedes, except possibly Slovenia since I know very little of them, as well as Southern/Southeastern parts of Ukraine. Many of those you have in more like Greeks should be intermediate.

I disagree about France,at least in terms of central and southern regions.

i agree about the rest

[Berahthraban]

I disagree about France,at least in terms of central and southern regions.

i agree about the rest

I mean both Swedes and Greeks looks European and that's really all we need to know. But when it comes to the Southern parts of France I see where you are coming from. I would still say that intermediate is appropriate though. Some look very med while some don't.

[Percivalle]

forget about jewish look, in any part of Greece

in all Greek regions, less or more, look mostly like Italian, except of epirus.

balkanic comes as minority, more frequent than northwestern or northeastern look, but less frequent than italian, i would say not more frequent

Many Greeks have their own vibe and are easy to recognize to my eyes. In Epirus I've seen more people who reminded me of Italians rather than in Peloponnese.


Greeks are genetically closer to Central italy and tuscany than to Balkan slavs

This for sure. Overall, Greeks, including islanders, go from central Italians to southern Italians.

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15V3.png

http://i.imgur.com/kdRT3zi.png

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

http://i.imgur.com/F04q5b9.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TjyvbbG.png

[Kriptc06]

Sweden imo

[Percivalle]

but if we include central Italy, then at least thessaly is closer to Italy than to balkans

Anyway, phenotypes and PCA aren't strictly related. Having similar amount of ancestral components doesn't generate the same phenotypes, PCA are based on large amounts of SNPs, only a tiny minority of these SNPs are related to phenotypes.

[Sikeliot]

Many Greeks have their own vibe and are easy to recognize to my eyes. In Epirus I've seen more people who reminded me of Italians rather than in Peloponnese.

What did Peloponnese look like?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Many Greeks have their own vibe and are easy to recognize to my eyes. In Epirus I've seen more people who reminded me of Italians rather than in Peloponnese.


it's true that some areas in italy with increased dinaric type may look closer to epirus than to pelloponese, even though i am not sure which these areas are. For example Sikeliot would pass better in Eastern epirus than anywhere in Greece.

pelloponese is mostly mediterranean, so i think it would be closer to many mediterranean looking parts of South italy, along with other parts of Greece, in any sense, than Epirus to South italy, not only anthropologically.



This for sure. Overall, Greeks, including islanders, go from central Italians to southern Italians.


that's exacly what I am trying to explain to sikeliot and any other here, that even Bulgaria which has a common border with Greece does not overlap it genetically. Greece is like in any other sense, very different from balkans, in contrast to its geographical proximity.

[Percivalle]

What did Peloponnese look like?

More Greek vibe, more med on average and less dinarid-influenced than Epirotes.

[Danaan]

I downvoted because Tooting Carmen is a Sikieliotid. I know for a fact that I wouldn't pass in most European countries. My father and brother would pass in more. But the question is too retarded too be answered seriously.

[nightrider+]

For example Sikeliot would pass better in Eastern epirus than anywhere in Greece.


:picard1: :picard1:

[Percivalle]

it's true that some areas in italy with increased dinaric type may look closer to epirus than to pelloponese, even though i am not sure which these areas are. .

If you mean Italy, dinaric types are here and there, more in north and central Italy rather than in south Italy, more in the east rather than in west of Italy, but I know also southern Italians who are dinarid. But overall in Italy there are more alpines than dinarids, on anthroforums the presence of dinaric types in Italy is overstimated and overstated.


pelloponese is mostly mediterranean, so i think it would be closer to many mediterranean looking parts of South italy, along with other parts of Greece, in any sense, than Epirus to South italy, not only anthropologically..

The feeling I had in the Peloponnese was just to be in a similar place to the south of Italy, for being mostly mediterranean. On the other hand, there were also Peloponnesian people who weren't mediterranean at all.



that's exacly what I am trying to explain to sikeliot and any other here, that even Bulgaria which has a common border with Greece does not overlap it genetically. Greece is like in any other sense, very different from balkans, in contrast to its geographical proximity.

The Balkan immigrants that I saw in Athens were quite distinct from the Greeks. Then maybe there are Greeks who have partial Bulgarian origin in the north of the country. Is it possible?

[Percivalle]

I mean both Swedes and Greeks looks European and that's really all we need to know. But when it comes to the Southern parts of France I see where you are coming from. I would still say that intermediate is appropriate though. Some look very med while some don't.

How many of these Austrians can pass in Sweden as regular Swedes?

http://www.olympia.at/main.asp?kat1=64&kat2=638&kat3=557&vid=1

[Sikeliot]

On the other hand, there were also Peloponnesian people who weren't mediterranean at all.


How so?

[Bloody]

So, inasmuch as there is a genuine 'pan-European' phenotype, would it be some sort of Alpine then?

there is no such thing as pan european... in france people look french ..in germany..german.. in spain..spanish... in italy italian...etc even with all their diversity they still are easy to identify..

[Bloody]

How many of these Austrians can pass in Sweden as regular Swedes?

http://www.olympia.at/main.asp?kat1=64&kat2=638&kat3=557&vid=1

A lot of austrians and german swiss have general germanic appearance which can be found in most of central and northern parts of continental europe aswell as in southern scandinavia... Imo its brits and the french who just look western european and wouldnt blend easily further east in the continent...

Many scandinavians, dutch, germans, austrians, belgians and even hungarians, czech, poles and ocasionally slovenes/croatians have a common appearance that can range to nordid influenced to hardcore continental nordic/germanic or west slavic...the overlap is clearly there.

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[Bloody]

It's really hard to decide, both med and nordic are not very frequent types in most of European countries. In eastern, Central Europe and france they are minority

but still a fair haired swede would blend better in those countries than your typical greek guy

[brennus dux gallorum]

but still a fair haired swede would blend better in those countries than your typical greek guy

not at all, if we consider some statistics

[Odin]

Sweden.

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[pulstar]

Greece because many modern citizens of Sweden are not Caucasians.

[Tooting Carmen]

Greece because many modern citizens of Sweden are not Caucasians.

I am talking about the native populations of both countries, of course. In any case, Greece also nowadays has a lot of immigrants - along with Italy, it is Europe's main port of call for migrants coming in from the Middle East.

[Ruggery]

If it is meant to be acceptable throughout Europe, neither Greece nor Sweden can, only the countries of central Europe can do so.

[pulstar]

I am talking about the native populations of both countries, of course. In any case, Greece also nowadays has a lot of immigrants - along with Italy, it is Europe's main port of call for migrants coming in from the Middle East.

What percentage native Swedes compose to the total population of Sweden? How about Greeks and Greece?

[Tooting Carmen]

What percentage native Swedes compose to the total population of Sweden? How about Greeks and Greece?

About 80% and 88% respectively.

[pulstar]

About 80% and 88% respectively.

And both countries have like 10-11 M, if I'm not wrong? I still think Greece. Native Swedes look more European than Greeks but they are dying out faster.

[Joso]

Just lol at Sweden winning on the poll

[Tooting Carmen]

Just lol at Sweden winning on the poll

Why?

[Joso]

Why?

I think it is pretty obvious greeks pass more, nordid only exists in northern europe and most of them are not even pure nordids, while meds exists also i north africa and middle east

[Joso]

I think it is pretty obvious greeks pass more, nordid only exists in northern europe and most of them are not even pure nordids, while meds exists also i north africa and middle east

Greece also have a lot of alpines, wich are the most numerous phenotype in Europe and there also alpinids in middle east( asiatic alpinids)

[Ruggery]

I think it is pretty obvious greeks pass more, nordid only exists in northern europe and most of them are not even pure nordids, while meds exists also i north africa and middle east

The Greeks also do not pass throughout Europe.

[Joso]

The Greeks also do not pass throughout Europe.

but more than swedes

[Seya]

greece. most swedes don't even pass outside scandinavia

[Ruggery]

but more than swedes

Obviously, the phenotypes of the Swedes are very from northern Europe. But a large part of the Greeks would not pass through the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Ireland, the United Kingdom, the Baltic countries and Poland. The only ethnic groups that can be found in almost all of Europe are the countries of central Europe.

[Joso]

Obviously, the phenotypes of the Swedes are very from northern Europe. But a large part of the Greeks would not pass through the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Ireland, the United Kingdom, the Baltic countries and Poland. The only ethnic groups that can be found in almost all of Europe are the countries of central Europe.

But Greece have lots of alpines and alpine is the most numerous phenotype in Europe and they are in many Euro countries, while Sweden don't have much of them

[Ruggery]

But Greece have lots of alpines and alpine is the most numerous phenotype in Europe and they are in many Euro countries, while Sweden don't have much of them

The most widespread phenotypes in Europe are: alpine, dinarid, subnordid, pontid, atlanto med, atlantid and borreby.

[Ruggery]

Forget to mention baltid.

[Regnera]

Both equal

[Iloko]

Greece

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[Tooting Carmen]

One crucial difference is that, while Swedes are pretty much indistinguishable from Danes and Norwegians; also, many fit easily in other parts of Northern Europe like Finland, Russia, Britain, Netherlands, Germany etc, by contrast many Greeks look rather atypical even for Bulgaria and Albania.

[Tooting Carmen]

Similarly, for that matter many Spaniards and (Central and Southern) Italians look rather atypical even for France.

[The Blade]

As people of Northern extraction - Sweden.
As people of Southern origin - Greece.
Neutral types - Greece by a small margin (but, honestly, Hungary, France and Croatia are better examples of this).

[Tooting Carmen]

As people of Northern extraction - Sweden.
As people of Southern origin - Greece.
Neutral types - Greece by a small margin (but, honestly, Hungary, France and Croatia are better examples of this).

By 'neutral types', do you mostly mean Alpines, Atlantids and Subnordids?

[The Blade]

By 'neutral types', do you mostly mean Alpines, Atlantids and Subnordids?
Alpines, Norids, Atlantids and Dinarids.

[Tooting Carmen]

Alpines, Norids, Atlantids and Dinarids.

All the same, do you agree with me that Swedes look rather more similar to their European neighbours than Greeks do to theirs?

[The Blade]

All the same, do you agree with me that Swedes look rather more similar to their European neighbours than Greeks do to theirs?
I agree that Swedes are closer to Danes and Norwegians than are Greeks to their Balkan neighbours and Turks.
If we add Finns to the math then I'd say Greeks and other Balkan people are more similar than are Swedish and Finnish.

[Tooting Carmen]

I agree that Swedes are closer to Danes and Norwegians than are Greeks to their Balkan neighbours and Turks.
If we add Finns to the math then I'd say Greeks and other Balkan people are more similar than are Swedish and Finnish.

Finns have a few extra Baltic and Uralic types, but other than that are they physiologically really that different to other Nordic groups?

[The Blade]

Finns have a few extra Baltic and Uralic types, but other than that are they physiologically really that different to other Nordic groups?
They also have much more Neanderthal phenotypically and genetically.
I do view them as quite different from other Scandinavians in overall.
The genetic distance between Sweden and Finland is also remarkable:
Swedes' distance to Finns from Helsinki is 1,89 and to Kuusamo Finns - 2,87.
In the same time Sweden-Austria (a Central European country) distance is just 1,21 and even Sweden-Bulgaria distance is 1,47.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Europe
Finns are one of the very specific groups in Europe.

[Flighttime]

I doubt very much that Greece has any Baltic or Nordic types (depigmented Meds doesn't count), Sweden do not have Meds. So, neither.

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[Urbanuss]

Maybe Swedes

[Tooting Carmen]

bump

[Cristiano viejo]

Greeks by far. Scandinavians barely pass outside their countries, too blonde and Nordic, while most of Europeans share traits that Greeks have, dark hair, dark eyes.

[Ruggery]

Greeks by far. Scandinavians barely pass outside their countries, too blonde and Nordic, while most of Europeans share traits that Greeks have, dark hair, dark eyes.

Do you think a German for example is more like a Greek than a Scandinavian?

[Tooting Carmen]

Do you think a German for example is more like a Greek than a Scandinavian?

Of course not. In fact, in many of Europe's largest nations the majority of people have either blonde or light-to-medium brown hair: Germany, the UK, Poland, Ukraine, Russia and the northern half of France.

[Ruggery]

Of course not. In fact, in many of Europe's largest nations the majority of people have either blonde or light-to-medium brown hair: Germany, the UK, Poland, Ukraine, Russia and the northern half of France.

So CV is wrong and I'm not talking about hair and eye color.

[Tooting Carmen]

So CV is wrong and I'm not talking about hair and eye color.

Yes, in features Germans resemble Scandinavians much more than Greeks too.

[Voskos]

Greece is its own thing. Comparing a part of a former trascontinental empire to a homogeneous secluded Northern country like Sweden whose population probably descends from bottleneck effects is a bit too far fetched.

[Tooting Carmen]

Greece is its own thing. Comparing a part of a former trascontinental empire to a homogeneous secluded Northern country like Sweden whose population probably descends from bottleneck effects is a bit too far fetched.

Haven't most Southern European countries been formerly parts of large empires (whether Arab, Austro-Hungarian or Ottoman)?

[Voskos]

Haven't most Southern European countries been formerly parts of large empires (whether Arab, Austro-Hungarian or Ottoman)?

Greece has had territories in Asia since the Mycenaeans. Not really comparable.

[Tooting Carmen]

Greece has had territories in Asia since the Mycenaeans. Not really comparable.

So are you admitting that there is a considerable non-European element to Greek ethnogenesis and culture?

[Voskos]

So are you admitting that there is a considerable non-European element to Greek ethnogenesis and culture?

Considerable relatively to Swedes and the Western Mediterrenean.

[Tooting Carmen]

Considerable relatively to Swedes and the Western Mediterrenean.

And all the bits in between Sweden and the Western Med too.

[Voskos]

And all the bits in between Sweden and the Western Med too.

Alright, but this thread is about Sweden Dr T.C.

[Odelia]

Who are the idiots that voted for Sweden? Wtf, most Swedes are Nordic to at least Atlantid! They barely pass anywhere below fucking Poland. Greeks definitely have types that pass in the southeast, centre and even western Europe. :picard2:

[Cristiano viejo]

Who are the idiots that voted for Sweden? Wtf, most Swedes are Nordic to at least Atlantid! They barely pass anywhere below fucking Poland. Greeks definitely have types that pass in the southeast, centre and even western Europe. :picard2:

Swedes and Scandinavians in general look like aliens in the rest of Europe, Greeks dont do.

[Odelia]

Swedes and Scandinavians in general look like aliens in the rest of Europe, Greeks dont do.
Yes and that's why I said Greeks have types that can pass in most of Europe, whereas Swedes look fucking uniform and only confined in their icy region

[JamesBond007]

Greece. Not that most pass north of the Alps but a lot of Swedes look Baltic, Finnic, or extreme Nordic which look odd even in the UK let alone in Southern Europe.

On the other hand, a non-negligible amount of Greeks look types that pass throughout Europe: Pontid, Atlanto-Med, Alpine, Dinaric. Not so for Swedes.

The extreme Nordic look is like radioactive flourescent booger snot glow in the dark hair. Sounds crazy I know but that is my active imagination. Swedes are aliens and Greeks are WOGS.