"North and South Korea on the Brink of War, Russian Diplomat Warns"

[Smaland]

"Tensions on the Korean Peninsula could not be any higher. The only next step is a conflict" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/8020972/North-and-South-Korea-on-the-brink-of-war-Russian-diplomat-warns.html)

[InvaderNat]

North and South Korea on the Brink of War

When are they not :rolleyes:.

[Cato]

When the NKoreans run out of dog to eat, then they'll attack the south for tasty canine morsels.

[Albion]

That's it Russia, gone in there and push them like we know you'll do anyway... :rolleyes:

[Radojica]

That's it Russia, gone in there and push them like we know you'll do anyway... :rolleyes:

Same goes for UK and US, you need two to play tango, or you forgot that :rolleyes2:?

[Albion]

Same goes for UK and US, you need two to play tango, or you forgot that :rolleyes2:?

Good point, but at least we support the "good guys" :D:thumb001:

[Radojica]

Good guys? Good guys according to your point of view? Yes, I am familiar with that approach when it's about resolving of the conflicts.....

[Curtis24]

Entirely possible. The South will win of course, the real questions are how extensive will damage done be, will North Korea use nuclear weapons, and will the U.S. or China get dragged into it.

If the North does fire a nuke, that could have long-term implications by legitimizing the use small-scale nuclear weapons.

[Albion]

Good guys? Good guys according to your point of view? Yes, I am familiar with that approach when it's about resolving of the conflicts.....

Well the North is hardly run by angels is it? They oppress their own people, allow famines - I know the west is hardly great but I think South Korea compared to North Korea, the South are probably the "nicer" country.

[Curtis24]

An even more interesting question would be, what kind of difficulties will the South have integrating the North? I think that the average North Korean is something like half a foot shorter than the average South Korean. This shows the huge economic, social, and psychological disparities between the two peoples, North Koreans having lived under an impoverished, cultlike regime, South Koreans having lived under an industrialized country.

[RoyBatty]

When are they not :rolleyes:.

Surprisingly enough things were OK'ish until the current South Korean "hard man" Presidente got elected. Since then relations nosedived. The current South Korean / USA strategy appears to be one of provoking North Korea endlessly and as a result the current situation is very hostile.

The NATO countries eagerly cite the example of the sunken South Korean ship as a "North Korean provocation" but even if North Korea did sink that ship, how could one possibly prove it? The NATO countries are hardly going to be impartial parties, they could present any "evidence" they liked since they had the luxury and opportunity to tamper with the site etc.

As far as "nice South Koreans" are concerned, this simply isn't the case. There are no "nice guys" in this mess. South Korea itself can be a fairly repressive and corrupt state.

The Koreas and their various backers really ought to tone down the rhetoric on both sides but unfortunately this doesn't appear to be in the USA's script. They want a confrontation.

[Vasconcelos]

I think that technically they are still at war.

[Albion]

An even more interesting question would be, what kind of difficulties will the South have integrating the North? I think that the average North Korean is something like half a foot shorter than the average South Korean. This shows the huge economic, social, and psychological disparities between the two peoples, North Koreans having lived under an impoverished, cultlike regime, South Koreans having lived under an industrialized country.

Who cares, reuniting a people under a nation state is more important than economics, if the West Germans worried about that Germany would still be pointlessly divided (some would say it still is - Austria, German Switzerland, South Tyrol, Lichtenstein, Alsace, Luxembourg...)

[Smaland]

The situation might be resolved in a peaceful manner, if the major powers involved would put quiet diplomatic pressure on their clients. The U.S. would talk to South Korea, and China and Russia would talk to North Korea. The last thing anyone needs is a "small-scale" nuclear war in East Asia.

[Germanicus]

America would love to see South Korea fight a war using their supplied weaponry against a modern army, it was unable to fight conventional warfare in Iraq or Afghanistan.:coffee:

[The Lawspeaker]

An even more interesting question would be, what kind of difficulties will the South have integrating the North? I think that the average North Korean is something like half a foot shorter than the average South Korean. This shows the huge economic, social, and psychological disparities between the two peoples, North Koreans having lived under an impoverished, cultlike regime, South Koreans having lived under an industrialized country.
It will be even more difficult then integrating the GDR (it's still a mess !) into West Germany but it will lead to the same kind of stuff: the South Koreans taking over every little bit value in North Korea and leaving the North Koreans unemployed and robbed from the very few things they had and destroying some of the unique things that the North has in the process.

[Curtis24]

Who cares, reuniting a people under a nation state is more important than economics, if the West Germans worried about that Germany would still be pointlessly divided (some would say it still is - Austria, German Switzerland, South Tyrol, Lichtenstein, Alsace, Luxembourg...)

Who cares? Are you serious? This will be nowhere near what German reunification was, and even that was fraught with difficulties, as Asega pointed out.

The North Koreans and South Koreans are, culturally and psychologically, worlds apart from each other. North Koreans have been malnourished(which causes lower I.Q.), denied education, and literally brainwashed into existing in a totaliterian state. South Koreans, on the other hand, are developed, educated, well-off population who can afford to spend massive amounts of time playing Starcraft.

As Asega also pointed out, in these types of situation the advanced society tends to exploit the disadvantaged. Whether or not there is anything in NK to take remains to be seen, but the result nonetheless could be the creation of an underclass in a unified Korean government.

[Cato]

AH!

This reminds me of a map on Battlenet a few years ago, back when I was still playing Starcraft (the original!), a player-edited map called:

USA VERSUS CHINKS AND GOOKS.

Any conflict with NKorea will involve China, and any conflict with SKorea will involve the USA. If that is so, despite a huge conventional advantage, the Chinese will go down like Pompey went down to Caesar at Pharsalus- thanks to massive amount of American force projection and a world-smashing arsenal of atomics (do you softies really think that the enlightened klepto lords of the USA would hestiate to nuke someone if their dollars were in jeopardy- especially if it was a sneak attack from some kind of robotic drone plane?).

Despite being ruled by kleptocrats, if some upstart country fucks with AmeriKKKA$$$, they'll wind up like Iraq- even if it's China.

[Radojica]

Despite being ruled by kleptocrats, if some upstart country fucks with AmeriKKKA$$$, they'll wind up like Iraq- even if it's China.

You mixed something here, it was America who attacked and made all that shit in Iraq, not other way around. And if you think that you are the strongest one with the best high-tech technology and therefor you have to win, you are so wrong. Serbian army was shooting down US planes with technology from mid of '60, and I assure you that there would be tens of thousand of dead of soldiers on American and NATO side if they invaded Serbia in 1999 (same as on Serbian side too). imagine what will happen if there's China involved now. Take it easy, slow down a bit.


Remember this one "who fly high, fall very low", no ones was lighten to the end, neither will yours. America is at it's peak, now it's time for declination. You have had your 6 minutes of glory.

[Aramis]

You are overreacting now Rade. As far as high-tech weaponry goes, the USA could bomb Serbia back to the stone age again, if it had any interests in doing so.

[Cato]

You mixed something here, it was America who attacked and made all that shit in Iraq, not other way around. And if you think that you are the strongest one with the best high-tech technology and therefor you have to win, you are so wrong. Serbian army was shooting down US planes with technology from mid of '60, and I assure you that there would be tens of thousand of dead of soldiers on American and NATO side if they invaded Serbia in 1999 (same as on Serbian side too). imagine what will happen if there's China involved now. Take it easy, slow down a bit.


Remember this one "who fly high, fall very low", no ones was lighten to the end, neither will yours. America is at it's peak, now it's time for declination. You have had your 6 minutes of glory.

So, do the Serbs possess the muscle and hardware to shoot down a Stratofortress if the U.S.A. decides to un-mothball the things? Mind you that this is an airfact with multiple decks, being as tall as a five-story building, with a payload of over 30,000kg, and can fly in the sodding lower atmosphere- so can the mighty Serb legions blow this fish out of the water with their old Soviet-surplus AA guns and mighty RPGs? Dusting F-14s isn't as easy with a sub-orbital bomber. :)

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b52-bomb.jpg

[RoyBatty]

USA = Contemporary Nazi Germany

The sooner equilibrium in global power is restored the better.

The ideal situation is when a couple of big players are facing off in a Mexican standoff.

The worst situation (as is currently the case) is when there is one superpower.

[Radojica]

You are overreacting now Rade. As far as high-tech weaponry goes, the USA could bomb Serbia back to the stone age again, if it had any interests in doing so.

Sure, they could nuke us, true, or have carpet bombing like it happened during WWII, but remember one thing: it was humanitarian intervention, not war. And even by using high-tech weaponry, they could not distinguish refugee columns from tanks, which is the fact that speak for itself. Or they massacred those Albanian civilians deliberetly. Either they don't know how to use it, or were using it granted. And I was talking about war, land invasion with their tanks, soldiers and everything else involved. After 78 days of bombing they destroyed 12 tanks and remember that their mission was to stop Milosevic troops, not civilians who are living in Serbia (Montenegro).

Anyway, they are using their the best high-tech technology in Afghanistan and I see how they are progressing after 9 years of it's usage.


So, do the Serbs possess the muscle and hardware to shoot down a Stratofortress if the U.S.A. decides to un-mothball the things? Mind you that this is an airfact with multiple decks, being as tall as a five-story building, with a payload of over 30,000kg, and can fly in the sodding lower atmosphere- so can the mighty Serb legions blow this fish out of the water with their old Soviet-surplus AA guns and mighty RPGs? Dusting F-14s isn't as easy with a sub-orbital bomber. :)

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b52-bomb.jpg

We had the balls to confront you and 19 other countries. You could hardly one, China. If Russia get involved, caboom, you are gone ;).

[Cato]

Sure, they could nuke us, true, or have carpet bombing like it happened during WWII, but remember one thing: it was humanitarian intervention, not war. And even by using high-tech weaponry, they could not distinguish refugee columns from tanks, which is the fact that speak for itself. Or they massacred those Albanian civilians deliberetly. Either they don't know how to use it, or were using it granted. And I was talking about war, land invasion with their tanks, soldiers and everything else involved. After 78 days of bombing they destroyed 12 tanks and remember that their mission was to stop Milosevic troops, not civilians who are living in Serbia (Montenegro).

Anyway, they are using their the best high-tech technology in Afghanistan and I see how they are progressing after 9 years of it's usage.

Ares dosn't distinguish between combatant and non-combatant mate.

[RoyBatty]

So, do the Serbs possess the muscle and hardware to shoot down a Stratofortress if the U.S.A. decides to un-mothball the things? Mind you that this is an airfact with multiple decks, being as tall as a five-story building, with a payload of over 30,000kg, and can fly in the sodding lower atmosphere- so can the mighty Serb legions blow this fish out of the water with their old Soviet-surplus AA guns?

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b52-bomb.jpg

Shooting down a B52 is not really an artform.

The North Vietnamese shot them to hell with Soviet S-75's towards the latter part of the Vietnam war. This is probably why the war ended when it did. The US attempted saturation bombing airraids on North Vietnam and ended up with significant bomber losses.

If they'd attempted the same thing a couple of years before they'd probably have knocked the stuffing out of the North Vietnamese but they left it too late. By that time Charlie was ready for them and dealt with them in the appropriate fashion.

[Radojica]

Ares dosn't distinguish between combatant and non-combatant mate.

With all those satellites, Awaks planes and all other shit flying over Serbia? :rolleyes2:

Aha, sure... that happened two times within a few weeks, in the broad day light. Only idiotic general would send tank columns on open road while there's hundred of planes above them.

The point is: get involved again in that conflict again and you might not only screw Korean Peninsula, or you (USA), but whole world in global nuclear war.

[Cato]

Sure, they could nuke us, true, or have carpet bombing like it happened during WWII, but remember one thing: it was humanitarian intervention, not war. And even by using high-tech weaponry, they could not distinguish refugee columns from tanks, which is the fact that speak for itself. Or they massacred those Albanian civilians deliberetly. Either they don't know how to use it, or were using it granted. And I was talking about war, land invasion with their tanks, soldiers and everything else involved. After 78 days of bombing they destroyed 12 tanks and remember that their mission was to stop Milosevic troops, not civilians who are living in Serbia (Montenegro).

Anyway, they are using their the best high-tech technology in Afghanistan and I see how they are progressing after 9 years of it's usage.



We had the balls to confront you and 19 other countries. You could hardly one, China. If Russia get involved, caboom, you are gone ;).

Still need the Russkies to fight your grand battles mate? That's soooo World War Oneish. :) :thumb001: If the U.S.A. made an aggressive hiccup in their direction, the Reds and the Chinks would melt like a candle under a blowtorch.

It's easy to LOL at the U.S.A. today, but America still wastes the Chinese and the Russians in three areas: air force, navy, and space. How many Reds and Chinks have you seen on the moon or in orbit, other than that old beat-up Russian space station that needs constant supply runs from NASA?

[Radojica]

Still need the Russkies to fight your grand battles mate? That's soooo World War Oneish. :) :thumb001:

Mine battles? It's your war, not mine, it never was and it will never be. If you want your countrymen to get killed because of someone who is living on the other side of planet of your home, good, go for it, but you are going to loose.

Anyhow, then you will have an equal enemy,so the truth could be shown, who is better warrior, you or Russians, something which is eating all Americans from inside since the end of WWII. Ohh, you already lost in Vietnam (Soviet technology, experts and pilots), i forgot, sorry :coffee:

[Cato]

Shooting down a B52 is not really an artform.

The North Vietnamese shot them to hell with Soviet S-75's towards the latter part of the Vietnam war. This is probably why the war ended when it did. The US attempted saturation bombing airraids on North Vietnam and ended up with significant bomber losses.

If they'd attempted the same thing a couple of years before they'd probably have knocked the stuffing out of the North Vietnamese but they left it too late. By that time Charlie was ready for them and dealt with them in the appropriate fashion.

The B-52s of the 1960s, you know. The planes have been updated as the years have gone by. :)

[Curtis24]

You mixed something here, it was America who attacked and made all that shit in Iraq, not other way around. And if you think that you are the strongest one with the best high-tech technology and therefor you have to win, you are so wrong. Serbian army was shooting down US planes with technology from mid of '60, and I assure you that there would be tens of thousand of dead of soldiers on American and NATO side if they invaded Serbia in 1999 (same as on Serbian side too). imagine what will happen if there's China involved now. Take it easy, slow down a bit.


Remember this one "who fly high, fall very low", no ones was lighten to the end, neither will yours. America is at it's peak, now it's time for declination. You have had your 6 minutes of glory.

Oh I doubt that. Wishful thinking doesn't equal reality.

[Cato]

Mine battles? It's your war, not mine, it never was and it will never be. If you want your countrymen to get killed because of someone who is living on the other side of planet of your home, good, go for it, but you are going to loose.

Anyhow, then you will have an equal enemy,so the truth could be shown, who is better warrior, you or Russians, something which is eating all Americans from inside since the end of WWII. Ohh, you already lost in Vietnam (Soviet technology, experts and pilots), i forgot, sorry :coffee:

I don't give a rat's ass about Vietnam quite frankly, since I'm no patriot puke who eats and breathes neocon BS.

I am an Anglo, an Englishman in ancestry, and will die and be burnt as one; Russia's defunct hegemony isn't a sack of half-pences compared to the old British Empire or the dying American Empire- a legacy of the sons of Hengest and Horsa! England gave way to America, whilst Russia shucks mold like a sack of old flour. If America is the New Rome, and Old Rome was able to sack barbarians like Atilla even on her worst day, what can Russia do to America the (once) Mighty?

[RoyBatty]

The B-52s of the 1960s, you know. The planes have been updated as the years have gone by. :)

It's still a big lumbering beast. Updates or not.

B-52 is pretty much useless without air superiority, an absence of surface-to-air stations and / or AWACS and fighter support.

It's one thing to bomb backward countries like Afghanistan who don't have the capabilities to shoot back but blasting a better equipped country won't be such a cakewalk until their surface to air capabilities have been neutralised.

[Cato]

It's still a big lumbering beast. Updates or not.

B-52 is pretty much useless without air superiority, an absence of surface-to-air stations and / or AWACS and fighter support.

It's one thing to bomb backward countries like Afghanistan who don't have the capabilities to shoot back but blasting a better equipped country won't be such a cakewalk until their surface to air capabilities have been neutralised.

Which is where sneak-attack weapons like subs and unmanned drones come in handy- how many do the chinks and borises have?

[Piparskeggr]

It's still a big lumbering beast. Updates or not.

B-52 is pretty much useless without air superiority, an absence of surface-to-air stations and / or AWACS and fighter support.

It's one thing to bomb backward countries like Afghanistan who don't have the capabilities to shoot back but blasting a better equipped country won't be such a cakewalk until their surface to air capabilities have been neutralised.

You obviously haven't seen the latest B-52 improvements...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=81&pictureid=1340

mmm, sonic! :D

[InvaderNat]

The sooner equilibrium in global power is restored the better.

The ideal situation is when a couple of big players are facing off in a Mexican standoff.

The worst situation (as is currently the case) is when there is one superpower.

I agree, one 'hyper-power' lauding it's influence over everyone else only creates resentment and corruption - like they say "absolute power corrupts".
A multi-polar world allows no single nation to abuse it's military power (or projection of power) to amass a disproportionate amount of wealth and influence.

[Turkophagos]

http://blogshit.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/north-korea-is-best-korea.jpg

[Piparskeggr]

Maybe it's time for the CoDominium as envisioned in the works of Jerry Pournelle?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDominium

[Albion]

Who cares? Are you serious?

Very.


This will be nowhere near what German reunification was, and even that was fraught with difficulties, as Asega pointed out.

I know that, maybe I should rephrase it - Why should we care?. South Korea bankrupting itself would be bad for our electronics imports and cheapo car imports and would affect the markets quite badly for a while, but apart from that it shouldn't cause too much trouble for the rest of the world.
The South could impose a different set of economic laws and conditions on the North until it approached a decent level of development, it'd take on a lot of debt but that'd be the price of reunification.
I'm sure America and Japan would love a unified, capitalist Korea, they'd probably pump it full of money too (although they themselves are in debt, but look at Britain with its development aid, still handing that out when we might need it ourself soon. :rolleyes: )


The North Koreans and South Koreans are, culturally and psychologically, worlds apart from each other.

For now.


North Koreans have been malnourished(which causes lower I.Q.), denied education, and literally brainwashed into existing in a totaliterian state. South Koreans, on the other hand, are developed, educated, well-off population who can afford to spend massive amounts of time playing Starcraft.

Korea would have to manage it well, North Korea would have to be a special territory within a unified Korea with special economic laws, mass education programs, aid and controls on immigration to the south. Making North Korea open to businesses would help it, by abolishing most taxes or bringing them down to low levels in the northern economic zone only for about 20 years or so. Even companies from South Korea would perhaps move to the North to take advantage of this and eventually the North would perhaps reach at least a decent level of economic prosperity.


As Asega also pointed out, in these types of situation the advanced society tends to exploit the disadvantaged.

Yep, that's what happens. North Korea would probably become a cheap manufacturing centre.


Whether or not there is anything in NK to take remains to be seen, but the result nonetheless could be the creation of an underclass in a unified Korean government.

Yes, there's always going to exist a underclass, but Korea would have to work hard to try and combat this.

[Murphy]

I only pray for the poor innocents that are about to be crushed in this proxy-war.

[Osweo]

North Koreans have been ... literally brainwashed into existing in a totaliterian state. South Koreans, on the other hand, are developed, educated, well-off population who can afford to spend massive amounts of time playing Starcraft.
South Koreans (and I assume we're talking about a large amount of full grown men here as well as the kids) have been brainwashed into thinking that it's acceptable and good to waste your life and money on whatever 'Starcraft' might be. Stepping back a bit, you almost begin to wonder what the good of all this 'development' and 'education' really is... :thumb001:

I am an Anglo, an Englishman in ancestry, and will die and be burnt as one; Russia's defunct hegemony isn't a sack of half-pences compared to the old British Empire or the dying American Empire- a legacy of the sons of Hengest and Horsa! England gave way to America, whilst Russia shucks mold like a sack of old flour. If America is the New Rome, and Old Rome was able to sack barbarians like Atilla even on her worst day, what can Russia do to America the (once) Mighty?
I am an Angle, an Englishman in actuality. Please stop embarrassing yourself with such comments while claiming some link to my nation. :(

[Curtis24]

yu don't know what Starcraft is??

[Osweo]

yu don't know what Starcraft is??

No, thank fuck. I gather it's some sort of game. :rolleyes:

[Cato]

yu don't know what Starcraft is??

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/18590/original/Zerg_Rush_by_banjo2E.jpg?1252935404

[InvaderNat]

No, thank fuck. I gather it's some sort of game. :rolleyes:

Yup it's a game that South Korean's are disturbingly addicted to - I think something like 70% of all online games in SK are Starcraft (which is basically a sci-fi war simulation).
They even have live matches played on Korean TV, I sh*t you not. :confused:

[Cato]

Yup it's a game that South Korean's are disturbingly addicted to - I think something like 70% of all online games in SK are Starcraft (which is basically a sci-fi war simulation).
They even have live matches played on Korean TV, I sh*t you not. :confused:

Young lad, I was playing Starcraft about 12 years ago whilst you were still riding around on a big wheel. Starcraft 2 blows ass from what I've seen of it, yet the original is like a fine wine amongst PC games.

[InvaderNat]

Young lad, I was playing Starcraft about 12 years ago whilst you were still riding around on a big wheel. Starcraft 2 blows ass from what I've seen of it, yet the original is like a fine wine amongst PC games.

Hey I wasn't riding a big wheel when I was 9! :p but yeah it is a pretty popular game. I only played the old one a couple of times but I kept getting 'pwned' (losing badly) as gamers say, I prefer FPS or Fighter-Sim games.

[Osweo]

Grown men sitting indoors playing kids' games.

Our civilisation going down the pan.

.......
:suomut:

[poiuytrewq0987]

I have Starcraft 2 and I've not touched it 3 days after the game launched. I bought it for my laptop and the game performed amicably. However the game was so lacking in depth and any real strategic play other than build that unit to counter that unit which is so boring.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Grown men sitting indoors playing kids' games.

Our civilisation going down the pan.

.......
:suomut:

The Balkan countries have already lost the war. It's truly up to the Western European countries and Russia to salvage what's left. Those places are the only place where real change can be implemented. For instance Serbia and Bulgaria both countries' population are poised to shrink to only 4-4.5 million by 2050 whereas Turkey will grow to 100 million. Even if we did something, we'd immediately be trampled on by the NATO and the like. :coffee:

[Curtis24]

every once in awhile a South Korean drops dead while playing Starcraft. keep in mind this is only one of several instances I"ve read about.


S Korean dies after games session

Online gaming is treated like a sport in South Korea
A South Korean man has died after reportedly playing an online computer game for 50 hours with few breaks.
The 28-year-old man collapsed after playing the game Starcraft at an internet cafe in the city of Taegu, according to South Korean authorities.

The man had not slept properly, and had eaten very little during his marathon session, said police.

Multi-player gaming in South Korea is extremely popular thanks to its fast and widespread broadband network.

Games are televised and professional players are treated, as well as paid, like sports stars.

Professional gamers there attract huge sums in sponsorship and can make more than $100,000 a year.

They are the types of games that completely engross the player. They are not games that you can play for 20 minutes and stop

Professor Mark Griffiths
The man, identified by his family name, Lee, started playing Starcraft on 3 August. He only paused playing to go to the toilet and for short periods of sleep, said the police.

"We presume the cause of death was heart failure stemming from exhaustion," a Taegu provincial police official told the Reuters news agency.

He was taken to hospital following his collapse, but died shortly after, according to the police. It is not known whether he suffered from any previous health conditions.

They added that he had recently been fired from his job because he kept missing work to play computer games.

Small minority

Online computer games are some of the most popular and largest growth areas in interactive entertainment.

Players can easily get immersed and feel compelled to play for hours at a stretch, particuarly in massively multiplayer online role playing games - MMORPGs - in which thousands of gamers play and interact in shared fantasy or science fiction worlds.

Reports of gamers spending 10 to 15 hours a day in front of video games, such as the highly popular World of Warcraft and EverQuest, are becoming more frequent. Experts say gamers should take regular screen breaks.

Psychologist Professor Mark Griffiths, author of several in-depth studies into online gaming and gambling addiction, told the BBC News website that, according to his research, playing excessively was not problematic in any shape or form for the majority of gamers.

He said: "It does seem to be the case that online gaming addiction for a small minority is a real phenomenon and people suffer the same symptoms as traditional addictions.


MMORPGs are social and immersive so require long periods of play
"But the good news is that it is a small minority."

In one detailed survey of 540 gamers, Professor Griffith and his team found that there were four playing more than 80 hours a week, which is considered "excessive".

He explained many people liked to play MMORPGs for long periods of time because of the social aspect of the games.

"They are the types of games that completely engross the player. They are not games that you can play for 20 minutes and stop.

"If you are going to take it seriously, you have to spend time doing it," he said.

But he warned there was a difference between "healthy enthusiasm" and "unhealthy addiction." People who sacrificed jobs, partners and loved ones were considered "extreme players".

Unlike help for traditional addictions, such as gambling, there is very little help for computer game addiction, he said.

"It is not taken seriously yet - it is the same for internet addiction," he said.

He advised anyone worried about gaming addictions should contact their local GP and get referred to a psychologist.

More than 15 million people, or 30% of the population, are registered for online gaming in South Korea. The country also host the annual World Cyber Games.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Posted in the wrong thread.

[poiuytrewq0987]

every once in awhile a South Korean drops dead while playing Starcraft. keep in mind this is only one of several instances I"ve read about.

Population control? :D

[InvaderNat]

I have Starcraft 2 and I've not touched it 3 days after the game launched. I bought it for my laptop and the game performed amicably. However the game was so lacking in depth and any real strategic play other than build that unit to counter that unit which is so boring.

Yup, that's what I hated about it too - No strategy, just build as many units as possible and swarm the enemy with them...lame.;) Come to think of it that sounds an awful lot like North Korea's military plan; maybe the south might adopt it soon too. :rolleyes:

[Debaser11]

Guys, I can't believe some of you are having this childish relativist discussion about who "the good guys" are. Yes, the South Korean "Republic" (if we want to be that way) has been repressive in nature and has also received Western aid to help it develop while North Korea has completely flopped with the absence of strong Chinese support. That being said, the North Korean regime is by far one of the most evil regimes on the planet. This is not even up for debate and it's not even one of those "well, in the face of American hegemony" kind of things, either. To quote Bill O'Reilly, Kim Jung-il "is just a bad guy."

Sometimes that alone says it all. Are there outside forces that exacerbate his bad behavior? Certainly. Is it justified? Hardly.

[Osweo]

every once in awhile a South Korean drops dead while playing Starcraft. keep in mind this is only one of several instances I"ve read about.
Jesus. :eek:
The people who set up these games really ought to fit in some sort of thing that PREVENTS idiots from playing more than eight hours in a single day or something. :( (Or on the other hand, who am I to interfere with natural selection?)

Guys, I can't believe some of you are having this childish relativist discussion about who "the good guys" are.
I dunno, Man. I despair of ever really finding anything trustworthy on the actual situation up there. :shrug:

[Debaser11]

I won't claim to be any expert, but after living in South Korea for twenty months, I feel like it's pretty hard to take a relativist approach to which place is "more bad" seriously.

I'm sure the South Koreans don't have absolute freedom freedoms, but the people up there live a pretty good life. In fact, I'd wager the standard of living to be just about the same as people have in the West. North Korea, on the other hand, has massive starvation. It's really night and day.

http://www.theneweditor.com/uploads/NorthKoreaBlackout.jpg

[Guapo]

North Korea, on the other hand, has massive starvation. It's really night and day.
[/IMG]

Are you saying that because they're communist or is it based on "western" media reports and anti-red Southroners.

People would ask me if I was starving and had to wait in line to buy food when I'd travel cuz I was from a commie country. I said yeah, the fuckin lazy baker wouldn't open his shop until the afternoon.

[Debaser11]

Are you saying that because they're communist or is it based on "western" media reports and anti-red Southroners.

People would ask me if I was starving and had to wait in line to buy food when I'd travel cuz I was from a commie country. I said yeah, the fuckin lazy baker wouldn't open his shop until the afternoon.

I'm actually shocked over people's ignorance on this subject. I'm saying that there has been massive starvation because there has been. Period. Not because people are waiting in bread lines. Do you people accept evidence (which there is a bountiful amount of regarding North Korea's heinous Human Rights records) or do you not? You're on a Western preservation forum too and yet you think freedoms and propaganda are comparable between a "Western" country and a communist dictatorship run by a weasel Chink?

[Radojica]

People would ask me if I was starving and had to wait in line to buy food when I'd travel cuz I was from a commie country.

Between 1991-1995 this was true, because every single store was empty (luckily most of the people in Serbia back then knew how to cook and make domestic bread, so there wasn't so much problem with it. Other things you could buy on black market (which was basically open, you could buy everything on the street, food from Hungary, oil from, hmm, where was oil coming from :chin:?

Hehehe, I remember when i met a girl from Israel in 2000. She was surprised seeing people selling oil in plastic bottles in the middle of the street :D:D:D:D)



I said yeah, the fuckin lazy baker wouldn't open his shop until the afternoon.


And this is the spirit and our black humour which helped us to survive all that shit :D:D :thumbs up

[Guapo]

I'm actually shocked over people's ignorance on this subject. I'm saying that there has been massive starvation because there has been. Period. Not because people are waiting in bread lines. Do you people accept evidence (which there is a bountiful amount of regarding North Korea's heinous Human Rights records) or do you not? You're on a Western preservation forum too and yet you think freedoms and propaganda are comparable between a "Western" country and a communist dictatorship run by a weasel Chink?

What about the U.S. Human Rights records? And the white man starved the native Indians by killing off teh buffaloe. All cuntries have bad records. Weasel Chink ,weasel white Western Euro guy from Texas named George = same weasel.

[Sol Invictus]

I'm not the biggest fan of NK myself, but I'll be damned if I support an imperialist policy or throw around quotes from Fox News in regards to them..

[Debaser11]

What about the U.S. Human Rights records? And the white man starved the native Indians by killing off teh buffaloe. All cuntries have bad records. Weasel Chink ,weasel white Western Euro guy from Texas named George = same weasel.

:mad:

Dear Lord, you can't be serious. What country do people take for granted above all others? Which civilization has the most charitable people when an earthquake or disaster strikes some random third world country? (I don't see the Chinese government giving massive amounts of aide to Africa and they are not poor yet they exploit the hell out of the continent.) What countries are people falling over themselves to get into as opposed to running away from?

And the white man starved the Indians? Uh, we were at war, dude. Someone posted an article (in the news section, I believe) about massive genocide happening on the American continent long before the white man set foot in North America. Kind of kills that noble savage myth (which given your retarded YES RETARDED posturing here I'm given to think you believe in such nonsense).

At the end of the day, you're criticizing the West, and the U.S. in particular, for failing to live up to some imaginary perfect human rights standard that NO OTHER civilization has ever shown itself able to live up to.

What if Saddam had George Bush's power? What was it like for the Phillipines under Japanese occupation? Or for Europe under Soviet rule? Show me the society that conquers all by putting daisies into gun barrels! It doesn't exist!

Someone has got to have the keys. That's the rules of the world. If you have so much hatred for Bush, pray tell, who would you rather give the keys to the castle to?

To Abdul Rahim Sahzirjizzinyourface with his camel-fucker bat-shit insane religion?
Wong Duk Dong with his eastern pragmatism and relative indifference to people outside his race?

Who?

You sound like a child.

[Guapo]

Texas es Mexico. Abajo los imperialistas demonios blancos.

[Radojica]

I'm actually shocked over people's ignorance on this subject. I'm saying that there has been massive starvation because there has been. Period. Not because people are waiting in bread lines. Do you people accept evidence (which there is a bountiful amount of regarding North Korea's heinous Human Rights records) or do you not? You're on a Western preservation forum too and yet you think freedoms and propaganda are comparable between a "Western" country and a communist dictatorship run by a weasel Chink?

Well, as far as I know, there's a portion of food for every single citizen every single day. How many people die of starvation in US? Or how many of them get killed by some gangs? Raped?

Your way of "civilization" does not mean it is the right one. Let me show you something to read, it's semi-funny.

http://us.mg3.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f14602%5fAK7HtEQAAKwUTJ4kEgYH31%2f hJQ4&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1

You, who are the member of an "enlightened" civilization take as a rule that all those who are living opposite from you has to be changed, by their own will, or by force. Your truth is maybe a truth for you, but total crap for someone else.

I would rather kill myself if I have to go "McDonalds", lie down my butt on the couch with 6 pack beer to watch some Oprah and to be coooool and to throw away my Sjenicki sir, my smoked ham, my domestic sour vegetables (cucumbers, peppers, cabbage) or domestic tomato from my own garden, grown up with my own hands, to stop welcoming my friends and stop making meze (tapas) when chilling with my friends.




:mad:

Dear Lord, you can't be serious. What country do people take for granted above all others? Which civilization has the most charitable people when an earthquake or disaster strikes some random third world country? (I don't see the Chinese government giving massive amounts of aide to Africa and they are not poor yet they exploit the hell out of the continent.) What countries are people falling over themselves to get into as opposed to running away from?

In the Middle age, rich people were building massive churches and monasteries with the money they "loot" from poor people so they make themselves look as good guys and buy their ticket to Heaven. Nothing new on the Western front, really :coffee:

About Chinese, they have 1.350.000.000 of citizens and I believe they have their own people to take care the most, but yet, they are helping, giving aid whenever they are able.

God damn, when Greece was in fire three years ago the biggest help they got from Serbian firefighters, the poorest country in Europe. What bullshit you just wrote there.


And the white man starved the Indians? Uh, we were at war, dude. Someone posted an article (in the news section, I believe) about massive genocide happening on the American continent long before the white man set foot in North America. Kind of kills that noble savage myth (which given your retarded YES RETARDED posturing here I'm given to think you believe in such nonsense).

Most of Native Americans in both SOuth and North America died of diseases brought by Europeans, and that is the truth. But the truth is also that it was blessed that savages deserve to die if they don't want to accept "civilization". Ameridians in USA are living in reservations camps mate (ghetto like places like i am seeing in Kosovo now), like some species who are on the brick of extinction. You took their land, their customs, their way of life and placed them where they cannot bother you. What is next? Making a place in the zoo for them?



At the end of the day, you're criticizing the West, and the U.S. in particular, for failing to live up to some imaginary perfect human rights standard that NO OTHER civilization has ever shown itself able to live up to.

Two men arrested for watching a video on youtube, there's an article here on the forum about it.


What if Saddam had George Bush's power? What was it like for the Phillipines under Japanese occupation? Or for Europe under Soviet rule? Show me the society that conquers all by putting daisies into gun barrels! It doesn't exist!

Saddam was the greatest USA ally in Middle East until he decided to stop being USA puppet and got punished for that. Same happened with Milosevic. Ask yourself, how was it to Iraqis under USA occupation? 1.000.000. of dead civilians in 7 years. How many of Afghanistan's dead?


Someone has got to have the keys. That's the rules of the world. If you have so much hatred for Bush, pray tell, who would you rather give the keys to the castle to?

That's the rules of hegemonic doctrines, not the world ;).


To Abdul Rahim Sahzirjizzinyourface with his camel-fucker bat-shit insane religion?

There's no insane religion, just insane people with their insane way of understandings. That's called fanaticism and not all of them are.


Wong Duk Dong with his eastern pragmatism and relative indifference to people outside his race?

Who?

You sound like a child.

And you like a brainwashed American. HA! Just 50 years ago you have forbbiden to black men and women to ride in the front part of the buses and you are saying this? HA! xD xD xD xD

[Curtis24]

So, what explains the fact that North KOreans on average are on average two inches shorter than South Koreans? Obviously, they are receiving different levels of nutrition, despite the North having a much smaller population. At least, the ones who survive are receiving lower levels of nutrition.


I found an interesting ARTICLE about height difference between the North and South Korean. As we know, North Korea suffered chronic food shortage due to series of drought and crop failures (also the fundamental flaw of the socialist system of collective farming). The articles says that average height difference is significant, as of 2005, the average height of people aged between 20 and 39 in North Korea is 154.9cm (5.08ft) for females and 165.6cm (5.43ft) for males, while the average height for the South Korean is 159.1cm (5.21ft) for females and 172.5cm (5.65ft) for males. The gap between the two will keep growing, and as article says we, Korean might become two totally different races! (To make the matter worse, the unification of the two seems elusive at this point)

http://gwdprk.blogspot.com/2007/06/tall-south-short-north.html

[Radojica]

So, what explains the fact that North KOreans on average are on average two inches shorter than South Koreans? Obviously, they are receiving different levels of nutrition, despite the North having a much smaller population. At least, the ones who survive are receiving lower levels of nutrition.



http://gwdprk.blogspot.com/2007/06/tall-south-short-north.html


Average Montenegrin is higher than average Serbian. Dalmatians (Croatia) are among the highest people in Europe. We all know the history of the Balkans since the arrival of Ottomans and according to this, we should all be midgets, no? But, hey, maybe that's why i like tinny girls :wink


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Vlade_Divac_Portrait.jpg/492px-Vlade_Divac_Portrait.jpg
Listed height 7 ft 1 in (2.16 m)

ooops :D

Those bloody Turks and their bad nutrition, they left it in my mentality that I should be small and therefor I am leaning toward tinny girls :tsk: :tsk: :tsk:

[Debaser11]

Well, as far as I know, there's a portion of food for every single citizen every single day. How many people die of starvation in US? Or how many of them get killed by some gangs? Raped?

Don't conflate state actors (which was the attack I was responding to) with culture. George Bush is not raping anyone. So if less people die of starvation within a dictatorship, the dictatorship is then automatically validated or justified? No offense, but this is again childish stuff.


Your way of "civilization" does not mean it is the right one. Let me show you something to read, it's semi-funny.

I didn't say it was right by virtue of it being "my civilization." You're attacking me for things I didn't even say. I'll ask you what I asked Guapo: who do you want to give the keys of the castle to? It's a simple question.

And your image never came up. Too bad. :(


You, who are the member of an "enlightened" civilization take as a rule that all those who are living opposite from you has to be changed, by their own will, or by force. Your truth is maybe a truth for you, but total crap for someone else.

I never said such things. You're actually quite full of shit. My argument was simply about "who do we want running the world?" I never supported the invasion of Iraq, either. But I have some perspective about the West's moderating influence. I don't care about the Muslim world. It can go f*ck off for all I care. I care about the West and its interests. The only interest I have in the Muslim world is limiting how much it threatens Western civilization. It can worship that camel-fucker all it wants. The camel-jockies that come to the West would love to see us all kneeling down and praying to Allah. F*ck 'em.


I would rather kill myself if I have to go "McDonalds", lie down my butt on the couch with 6 pack beer to watch some Oprah and to be coooool and to throw away my Sjenicki sir, my smoked ham, my domestic sour vegetables (cucumbers, peppers, cabbage) or domestic tomato from my own garden, grown up with my own hands, to stop welcoming my friends and stop making meze (tapas) when chilling with my friends.

Um, okay. Thanks for that...profound(?) point, I guess.



In the Middle age, rich people were building massive churches and monasteries with the money they "loot" from poor people so they make themselves look as good guys and buy their ticket to Heaven. Nothing new on the Western front, really :coffee:

Yes, I just love Marxism.


About Chinese, they have 1.350.000.000 of citizens and I believe they have their own people to take care the most, but yet, they are helping, giving aid whenever they are able.

Just accepting that your unsubstantiated claim is true (that they are "giving aide whenever they are able"), what about other means of charity that the West involves itself with that China wants NOTHING to do with? Who else is letting refugees into their country like the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, the U.S., and Canada (among many others in the West) do? I mean, why do you even want to preserve Western civilization if you think so little of it? Thanks for the update on China's population, btw.:rolleyes2:


God damn, when Greece was in fire three years ago the biggest help they got from Serbian firefighters, the poorest country in Europe. What bullshit you just wrote there.

So if the West doesn't help on the level you want in every single case, that means it's not good? That's the "logic" you're applying.




Most of Native Americans in both SOuth and North America died of diseases brought by Europeans, and that is the truth.

Most of the Injuns you're referring to were in a state of perpetual war with themselves long before the Europeans arrived. The ones that are alive today are alive thanks to Western medicine. I wonder if a bunch of warring savages like your beloved "Native Americans" would have shared their medicine to save the white man had the shoe been on the other foot?


But the truth is also that it was blessed that savages deserve to die if they don't want to accept "civilization". Ameridians in USA are living in reservations camps mate (ghetto like places like i am seeing in Kosovo now), like some species who are on the brick of extinction. You took their land, their customs, their way of life and placed them where they cannot bother you. What is next? Making a place in the zoo for them?

They live in ghettos because they run their societies incompetently. Whites, unlike other people, set aside some land within a country they won through conquest, to allow Indians to run their own societies. Name one other dominating civilization that has conquered another one and then, strictly out of guilt (not pragmatism), set up autonomous states within its own sphere of influence. There's nothing stopping those Indians from moving to the U.S. proper. They don't have to live off the tax subsidies and the limited good will of whites if they are unhappy with the societies they themselves are allowed to build due to the good graces of whites tolerating them having states within the country they founded.





Two men arrested for watching a video on youtube, there's an article here on the forum about it.

So? I posted about that in another thread, actually. I don't like it, either. That's big news here. In North Korea or China that would be a routine Tuesday for their police.




Saddam was the greatest USA ally in Middle East until he decided to stop being USA puppet and got punished for that. Same happened with Milosevic. Ask yourself, how was it to Iraqis under USA occupation? 1.000.000. of dead civilians in 7 years. How many of Afghanistan's dead?

Uh, we didn't kill one million Iraqis. In fact, most of the killing was done between Shia and Sunni fighting. Just a few months ago, a poll was done as we were making plans to withdraw from Iraq. More than half the population still wanted our armed forces to stay because they know we were providing a stability that they will have a difficulty providing on their own.

And Afghanistan is a terrible place! You take issue with women and blacks sitting in the back of the bus in my country, but then seemingly give a free pass to Muslims' barbarous treatment of women within this country! It would be funny if your lame views weren't so ubiquitous and dangerous among the mindless vegetated relativists that are all too numerous these days.


That's the rules of hegemonic doctrines, not the world ;).
*Sigh*




There's no insane religion, just insane people with their insane way of understandings. That's called fanaticism and not all of them are.

Religion is not just a cultural accessory. Not all religions are the same. Just like not all philosophies are the same. See my thread on "Robert Spencer."



And you like a brainwashed American. HA! Just 50 years ago you have forbbiden to black men and women to ride in the front part of the buses and you are saying this? HA! xD xD xD xD

What's wrong with freedom of association? If I live in a white neighborhood and we build a pool, why do we have a moral obligation to let blacks from the other side of town swim in it? Do you not believe in freedom of association (which is the moral justification for cultural preservation)?

If the blacks wanted things whites had, they could have gone and built them themselves. Nothing was stopping them. No one came down from the sky and handed whites the things they built in the U.S.

You have some foolish views, I'm sorry to say. I think even responding to your incoherent mess has caused me to lose brain cells.

[Radojica]

Don't conflate state actors (which was the attack I was responding to) with culture. George Bush is not raping anyone. So if less people die of starvation within a dictatorship, the dictatorship is then automatically validated or justified? No offense, but this is again childish stuff.

USA after the break up of SSSR made a total mess worldwide.

What happened to Haiti, do you have a slight idea? What happened in El Salvador? Columbia?


I didn't say it was right by virtue of it being "my civilization." You're attacking me for things I didn't even say. I'll ask you what I asked Guapo: who do you want to give the keys of the castle to? It's a simple question.

I am the master of my own castle, nobody else. If you know the history of Serbs and Balkans you will understand what i mean by this.


And your image never came up. Too bad. :(

Here it is.

http://mommylife.net/archives/2010/07/28/where%20the%20white%20man%20went%20wrong.jpg



I never said such things. You're actually quite full of shit. My argument was simply about "who do we want running the world?" I never supported the invasion of Iraq, either.

Want a clapping for this?

I never wanted to go to war against NATO and US/UK but would gladly kill as many as possible of you in order to defend my country and my home, so nobody ruling over me. I was 18 years old when I was participating in overthrowing of Milosevic, too.


But I have some perspective about the West's moderating influence. I don't care about the Muslim world. It can go f*ck off for all I care. I care about the West and its interests. The only interest I have in the Muslim world is limiting how much it threatens Western civilization.

I have a lot of Muslim friends and they were all truthful and decent people.



It can worship that camel-fucker all it wants. The camel-jockies that come to the West would love to see us all kneeling down and praying to Allah. F*ck 'em.

You are telling ME about Islam and it's influence? Your dear country made first Muslim state in the hearth of the Europe, and not only one, but two justifying that with humanitarian reasons. Orthodox Serbs and Muslim Albanians and Bosnians were living together in relatively peace for centuries and whenever some from the West wanted to enlighten some of the nations here there was war followed by horrible atrocities and devastation. Leave people to live their own lives, for fuck's sake!!!


How on Earth Serbs threatened USA when they were fighting with Muslim Albanian terrorists on Kosovo and Metohija? Just a year before aggression State Department marked KLA as terrorist organization (they were on the third place of the most dangerous terrorist organizations) and next year Serbia got devastated by the same politicians who marked them as terrorists. Do you know that Osama bin Laden has Bosnian passport? Do you know that there's tens of thousand of Arab Muslims in Bosnia who have Bosnian citizenship and who fought in the name of Allah in the hearth of the Europe? That those who were flying those planes which destroyed Towers in New York had Bosnian passports? You don't know shit.


Um, okay. Thanks for that...profound(?) point, I guess.

Point is very good, but you are not able to understand it.


Yes, I just love Marxism.

It has nothing to do with him and his work.


Just accepting that your unsubstantiated claim is true (that they are "giving aide whenever they are able"), what about other means of charity that the West involves itself with that China wants NOTHING to do with? Who else is letting refugees into their country like the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, the U.S., and Canada (among many others in the West) do?

Serbia has the biggest number of refugees in Europe, more than a half of million which is 9% of overall population :rolleyes2:


I mean, why do you even want to preserve Western civilization if you think so little of it? Thanks for the update on China's population, btw.:rolleyes2:

I want to preserve my country from both West and East which are turning it apart even now when we speak.



So if the West doesn't help on the level you want in every single case, that means it's not good? That's the "logic" you're applying.

I am applying that if you help to someone you are not ringing on all the bells you have done it. Then you helped with a reason to show to the world that you are "good person" and that is hypocritical. Help and don't talk about it, let others do that if they want. When I help I do because i want to. Do I do that because i am a good person , because i want to feel good because i know i helped someone or because I want to "show" how good I am so people start liking me?



Most of the Injuns you're referring to were in a state of perpetual war with themselves long before the Europeans arrived. The ones that are alive today are alive thanks to Western medicine. I wonder if a bunch of warring savages like your beloved "Native Americans" would have shared their medicine to save the white man had the shoe been on the other foot?

And I wonder, how is it possible that they survived for more than 10.000 years without White men medicine :coffee:...and how humankind survived for so long without Western medicine. Modern "Western" medicine is existing for two centuries maybe. Pneumonia was deadly until the '30-es of 20th century and still, just in USA it's on the 5th place as the cause of mortality, btw.



They live in ghettos because they run their societies incompetently. Whites, unlike other people, set aside some land within a country they won through conquest, to allow Indians to run their own societies. Name one other dominating civilization that has conquered another one and then, strictly out of guilt (not pragmatism), set up autonomous states within its own sphere of influence. There's nothing stopping those Indians from moving to the U.S. proper.

Aside of preserving their way of life they have had before arrival of Europeans?

Anyway, there's a picture, read it again and you will have the answer.


They don't have to live off the tax subsidies and the limited good will of whites if they are unhappy with the societies they themselves are allowed to build due to the good graces of whites tolerating them having states within the country they founded.

You made them to accept Western way of life and they did not adapt since they were living they way they did for thousands of years. What did you expect? How many of them are fully integrated in USA society, have all the rights as other Americans?



So? I posted about that in another thread, actually. I don't like it, either. That's big news here. In North Korea or China that would be a routine Tuesday for their police.

You were lied about many things, many things were hiding from you by your own governments. Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, now Iran....20% truth-80% lies and nothing but a lies.




Uh, we didn't kill one million Iraqis. In fact, most of the killing was done between Shia and Sunni fighting. Just a few months ago, a poll was done as we were making plans to withdraw from Iraq. More than half the population still wanted our armed forces to stay because they know we were providing a stability that they will have a difficulty providing on their own.

When you ran through Iraq and when you conquered it, Shia and Sunni started their own civil war, taking revenges on each other. While Tito was alive he was stopping nations to do the same things, so some nations need strong hand to lead them in order to stop making bigger damage.


And Afghanistan is a terrible place! You take issue with women and blacks sitting in the back of the bus in my country, but then seemingly give a free pass to Muslims' barbarous treatment of women within this country! It would be funny if your lame views weren't so ubiquitous and dangerous among the mindless vegetated relativists that are all too numerous these days.

You are shallow. Its about "official enemy", or to understand me better " I will intervene when i think its necessary and when it suits me"...Afghanistan women were treated that way for hundred of years, even since USA became global power. Why didn't react then?



*Sigh*

You can sigh until tomorrow, but that is the fact.



Religion is not just a cultural accessory. Not all religions are the same. Just like not all philosophies are the same. See my thread on "Robert Spencer."

Pardon me? For Orthodox Christians, for example, religion is cultural thing also, something you from the West will never be able to understand. Your reply has nothing to do with what i wrote, you missed the point.


[QUOTE=Debaser11;272643]What's wrong with freedom of association? If I live in a white neighborhood and we build a pool, why do we have a moral obligation to let blacks from the other side of town swim in it? Do you not believe in freedom of association (which is the moral justification for cultural preservation)?

I thought that black people in USA are USA citizens, just like all the others. USA is not European country, although it was made by Europeans by ancestry. And please, tell me, what is the culture in USA you are trying to preserve :rotfl:? My house where i spent my childhood is almost old as your country which you are trying to preserve. Everything you have is brought and made by Europeans. That is heritage, culture which is lasting for more than 1000 years and which Westerners are destroying day by day.


]If the blacks wanted things whites had, they could have gone and built them themselves[/B]

Oh there was one thing, THEY WERE SLAVES BROUGHT FROM AFRICA!! :coffee:


][/B] Nothing was stopping them. No one came down from the sky and handed whites the things they built in the U.S.

They were living in tribes and they did not need what Europeans had. They were satisfied with that, so why changing something which is not bad (according to them).


You have some foolish views, I'm sorry to say. I think even responding to your incoherent mess has caused me to lose brain cells.

Maybe I have foolish views, but I know what i am standing for. About your brain cells, there's isn't many left anyway according to your writing and views :).

[Debaser11]

At this point, I'm just going to appeal to the good fair senses of anyone else reading this "disagreement" of sorts concerning the West (and the United States in particular). It baffles me that such a character even exists here. But whatever.


(At least, I think that's what this joker with no understanding of my country's history thinks he is arguing about. I can just picture how indignant he'd get if I attempted to tell him what's what about his country's history in the crude, boorish, and ignorant manner that he has chosen to do with mine.)

[Radojica]

At this point, I'm just going to appeal to the good fair senses of anyone else reading this "disagreement" of sorts concerning the West (and the United States in particular). It baffles me that such a character even exists here. But whatever.

This character is here for a quite a long time and all these people know that I am consistent with my beliefs. If you don't like them, don't read them, but it was not ad hominem and do not try to pass it that way.


(At least, I think that's what this joker with no understanding of my country's history thinks he is arguing about.

I admire to many things your country have done and offered to this world, but you are making a lot of bad things, very bad things.

It is USA government who forgot many things from our mutual history in 20th century, who destroyed my country, my town and I'll probably die of cancer in next 20 years because of devastation of industrial zone of my town. My town has the biggest cancer rate in Europe and is one of the most polluted in Europe. Do not ask a simpathy from me. I have nothing against you particularly, nor most of Americans,but your country attacked my country unprovoked and I'll be against USA whenever they attack any other small and poor country around the world.



I can just picture how indignant he'd get if I attempted to tell him what's what about his country's history in the crude, boorish, and ignorant manner that he has chosen to do with mine.)

I've heard it thousand times, so you won't get too far even if you choose to do that.

[Debaser11]

Mr. Nobody, indeed.

[Sol Invictus]

George Bush is not raping anyone.

George Bush raped everyone and their good sense.


So if less people die of starvation within a dictatorship, the dictatorship is then automatically validated or justified? No offense, but this is again childish stuff.

And if it was reversed and it was not justified by western standards, what business is it of yours? Turn off your Fox News, mate. Worry about your own country and it's faults.

Correct those and maybe you might have a say on what goes on in the international scale, like preventing the U.S from ever imposing it's will on another again.

For the good of humanity.

[Radojica]

Mr. Nobody, indeed.

As it seems, your nightmare who told you a truth about your country and upset you with that. I've gone through that phase when I thought that Serbs were the only victims in recent Balkan wars, but some people and some investigations shown to me that it was not just like that.

The most incredible things are where you don't expect them at all :wink.

There are two side of the coins, don't look only at one, Mr. Dedasera :D

[Debaser11]

Uh, right pal. You keep believing that one. I've read people like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. I have more than a couple of their books sitting on my shelf. I've also read people like Tariq Ali, Edward Said, John Pilger, Alexander Cockburn and Robert Fisk. I've read almost the whole roster of writers that ZCommunications (ZMag) can throw at me. I doubt there's anything anti-American that you can tell me that they haven't already brought to my attention. I know my country's stains (real and alleged) pretty well, thank you. Hell, I've even read the writings of miserable nigger thugs like Mumia Abu-Jamal (even have his book) and listened to his prison recordings. I used to frequent far left sites like Counterpunch, ZMag, and the Nation.

Then I discovered something called logic. It literally flipped the view I had about my country on its head. I used to be the most liberal American-criticizing person that you can imagine. So I'm not afraid of my country's stained past (again, real or imagined). But I have neither the time nor the patience to argue with a woefully ignorant person such as yourself who first of all takes any pot shot he can and then ignores the leads and follow-ups that logic demands if a sensible discussion is to take place instead of a dumb "shouting" match, which you seem to relish.

There are plenty of people I enjoy arguing with on here because they understand how the arguing game works. Even though I disagree with them, I have fun and often learn something in the process. They challenge my views in a stimulating way. I can't say that you fit such a description.

[Sol Invictus]

I'm going to go cry now.

[Aemma]

Hmm bit of a mess but nothing that cannot be cleaned up a bit. :D

How about we recognise a few things first:

1. Maybe we can recognise that personal attacks/insults truly mar a good discussion/debate.

2. Maybe we can recognise that Americans aren't monsters.

3. Maybe we can recognise that the rest of the world isn't monstrous either.

4. Maybe we can recognise that this world functions on diversity, of people, of thoughts, of processes, of, well, what-have-you.

5. Maybe we can recognise that worldviews will collide here but we're all pretty resilient in our bubbles and can bounce back from a discussion gone sour only to start anew tomorrow.

:shrug: I'm Canadian eh? I wear a blue beret here. ;)

[Sol Invictus]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eqkC4iaC5QI/RnoX09UZNgI/AAAAAAAAETk/OpUyFdjoHjw/s400/Burning-Un-Flag.jpg

[Aemma]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_eqkC4iaC5QI/RnoX09UZNgI/AAAAAAAAETk/OpUyFdjoHjw/s400/Burning-Un-Flag.jpg

Damn you, Jason! ;) :P

[Motörhead Remember Me]

When are they not :rolleyes:.

Actually, they are at war already...

[Radojica]

Uh, right pal. You keep believing that one. I've read people like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. I have more than a couple of their books sitting on my shelf. I've also read people like Tariq Ali, Edward Said, John Pilger, Alexander Cockburn and Robert Fisk. I've read almost the whole roster of writers that ZCommunications (ZMag) can throw at me. I doubt there's anything anti-American that you can tell me that they haven't already brought to my attention. I know my country's stains (real and alleged) pretty well, thank you. Hell, I've even read the writings of miserable nigger thugs like Mumia Abu-Jamal (even have his book) and listened to his prison recordings. I used to frequent far left sites like Counterpunch, ZMag, and the Nation.

Wow, does this make you smart now :chin:? I read so many authors from West to East, from North to South that i cannot remember all those names, so what? Right now I am reading Noam Chomsky about "New militaristic humanism-lessons from Kosovo", you should read it.


Then I discovered something called logic. It literally flipped the view I had about my country on its head. I used to be the most liberal American-criticizing person that you can imagine. So I'm not afraid of my country's stained past (again, real or imagined). But I have neither the time nor the patience to argue with a woefully ignorant person such as yourself who first of all takes any pot shot he can and then ignores the leads and follow-ups that logic demands if a sensible discussion is to take place instead of a dumb "shouting" match, which you seem to relish.

You and me are two different mentalities and two different characters who grew up in two totally different worlds. While you were going to parties I was going to the roof of the building watching the bombing, or getting scared as shit when it was blasting near my home. I grew up in war environment, what do you expect, to listen to Beethoven in the back while debating with you :coffee:?

Ok, here it is

YAOTCtW9v0M, enjoy :wink


There are plenty of people I enjoy arguing with on here because they understand how the arguing game works. Even though I disagree with them, I have fun and often learn something in the process. They challenge my views in a stimulating way. I can't say that you fit such a description.

You are braking my hearth :cry:


Hmm bit of a mess but nothing that cannot be cleaned up a bit. :D

Here's real houswife woman...cleaning, cleaning, cleaning and nothing but the cleaning :wink



1. Maybe we can recognise that personal attacks/insults truly mar a good discussion/debate.

I have never insulted anyone here, especially in this debate.

Show me where I attacked anybody here in particularly. When I write USA I mean government and it was always like that and it will be that way and most of the people here know that. The fact that Debaser came to this forum two months ago when i was not here is not my problem. What happened with natives was "clash of civilizations" and I surely do not attack Debaser for that, unlike his government which attacked my people whenever they were able and they still do. Shit, even today Serbs are presented as savages, cold murderers and genocidal nation because of the picture USA and West were getting from here.WTF?! Should I go under my mother's skirt and cry like a little girl because of that? No, but I stopped listening to that shit, since I know and I am still learning what have happened. Hell, Angelina Jolie is making a movie about war in Bosnia where Serbs were also and again presented as savages who were plundering and raping. Just this time it seems that a Serb raped good so girl fall in love with him in the end, or some shit like that, i am not that bored to read whole story.



2. Maybe we can recognise that Americans aren't monsters.

Of course they are not. I was personally sad when Towers were destroyed and all those people died, unlike others who were cheering, not only in Serbia, but all over the world.


3. Maybe we can recognise that the rest of the world isn't monstrous either.

That's my point. Maybe I've done it in the way which hurt Debaser feelings, but what a heck, that's life.


4. Maybe we can recognise that this world functions on diversity, of people, of thoughts, of processes, of, well, what-have-you.

Live and let others live.


5. Maybe we can recognise that worldviews will collide here but we're all pretty resilient in our bubbles and can bounce back from a discussion gone sour only to start anew tomorrow.

I left the forum in July when my dead father was attacked and when I have been told it's good thing he is dead because he is fertilizing Serbian soil, so what? Here I am again because I like this forum and most of the people here.


:shrug: I'm Canadian eh? I wear a blue beret here. ;)

Those Canadians I met were wearing blue helmets :swl. But, they were cool. They gave a lot of candies to my friends and me when candies were existing only in our imagination :D :D. At first we were like ":chin:, maybe it's poisoned, what should we do?"

It was gone within a minute :shy:

The point is: I did not attack Debaser personally but the politic of his government who like to intervene when they have personal benefits and not when they really need. I actually like reading his posts and if those attacks on his government Is what's hurting him, i don't know what to say, except that I am shocked :shocked:

[Aemma]

Wow, does this make you smart now :chin:? I read so many authors from West to East, from North to South that i cannot remember all those names, so what? Right now I am reading Noam Chomsky about "New militaristic humanism-lessons from Kosovo", you should read it.



You and me are two different mentalities and two different characters who grew up in two totally different worlds. While you were going to parties I was going to the roof of the building watching the bombing, or getting scared as shit when it was blasting near my home. I grew up in war environment, what do you expect, to listen to Beethoven in the back while debating with you :coffee:?

Ok, here it is

YAOTCtW9v0M, enjoy :wink



You are braking my hearth :cry:



Here's real houswife woman...cleaning, cleaning, cleaning and nothing but the cleaning :wink




I have never insulted anyone here, especially in this debate.

Show me where I attacked anybody here in particularly. When I write USA I mean government and it was always like that and it will be that way and most of the people here know that. The fact that Debaser came to this forum two months ago when i was not here is not my problem. What happened with natives was "clash of civilizations" and I surely do not attack Debaser for that, unlike his government which attacked my people whenever they were able and they still do. Shit, even today Serbs are presented as savages, cold murderers and genocidal nation because of the picture USA and West were getting from here.WTF?! Should I go under my mother's skirt and cry like a little girl because of that? No, but I stopped listening to that shit, since I know and I am still learning what have happened. Hell, Angelina Jolie is making a movie about war in Bosnia where Serbs were also and again presented as savages who were plundering and raping. Just this time it seems that a Serb raped good so girl fall in love with him in the end, or some shit like that, i am not that bored to read whole story.




Of course they are not. I was personally sad when Towers were destroyed and all those people died, unlike others who were cheering, not only in Serbia, but all over the world.



That's my point. Maybe I've done it in the way which hurt Debaser feelings, but what a heck, that's life.



Live and let others live.



I left the forum in July when my dead father was attacked and when I have been told it's good thing he is dead because he is fertilizing Serbian soil, so what? Here I am again because I like this forum and most of the people here.



Those Canadians I met were wearing blue helmets :swl. But, they were cool. They gave a lot of candies to my friends and me when candies were existing only in our imagination :D :D. At first we were like ":chin:, maybe it's poisoned, what should we do?"

It was gone within a minute :shy:

The point is: I did not attack Debaser personally but the politic of his government who like to intervene when they have personal benefits and not when they really need. I actually like reading his posts and if those attacks on his government Is what's hurting him, i don't know what to say, except that I am shocked :shocked:

Oh Rado, you know me better than that, I hope. If I was singling anybody out, it was ALL of you *and* none. Ok? We're all equal in ability and right to voice our opinions here, everybody.

So please don't take what I posted as a personal affront to you in particular because it was directed to *everybody* who posted in this thread, as a friendly reminder.

Alright? :) Please? :)

[Radojica]

Oh Rado, you know me better than that, I hope. If I was singling anybody out, it was ALL of you *and* none. Ok? We're all equal in ability and right to voice our opinions here, everybody.

So please don't take what I posted as a personal affront to you in particular because it was directed to *everybody* who posted in this thread, as a friendly reminder.

Alright? :) Please? :)

Dear God, noo my dear mam, of course not, i never understood you that way. Maybe I sounded like I am taking that against me, but I did not, maybe I did not express well, but I got your point, totally, don't worry.

Sorry for misunderstanding, really :shy:

[Guapo]

2. Maybe we can recognise that Americans aren't monsters.



Of course they're not but they should stop being ignorant and think for themselves instead of being brainwashed. For example comedian Yakov Smirnoff, who is actually a Ukrainian jew, that made Americans laugh and actually believe in his pathetic yid jokes by saying, let’s see, how did he put it once, “In Russia they have only two kinds of bread: the one you have and the one you don’t”. No wonder that after the USSR collapse nobody needs that no talent asshole even in the US anymore. Apart from the iron curtain, not that much different from life in the US or Western Europe.

[Debaser11]

Of course they're not but they should stop being ignorant and think for themselves instead of being brainwashed. For example comedian Yakov Smirnoff, who is actually a Ukrainian jew, that made Americans laugh and actually believe in his pathetic yid jokes by saying, let’s see, how did he put it once, “In Russia they have only two kinds of bread: the one you have and the one you don’t”. No wonder that after the USSR collapse nobody needs that no talent asshole even in the US anymore. Apart from the iron curtain, not that much different from life in the US or Western Europe.

You're an arrogant, presumptuous piece of work.

[Debaser11]

The point is: I did not attack Debaser personally but the politic of his government who like to intervene when they have personal benefits and not when they really need. I actually like reading his posts and if those attacks on his government Is what's hurting him, i don't know what to say, except that I am shocked :shocked:

You can attack me personally. I have thick skin. And you did on several occasions. So let's not lie about that:

"And you like a brainwashed American. HA!"

"About your brain cells, there's isn't many left anyway according to your writing and views :)."

"You are shallow."

Again, personal attacks don't really bother me. I attacked you as well, to be fair. Again, what annoys me is the crudity of your understanding about U.S. history. I never actually justified any action the U.S. had taken with respect to the Balkans. (Yet, for some reason, you act like I have in your responses. They're all total non sequiturs in some way.) I never justified any actions the U.S. has taken with respect to Iraq or Afghanistan, either.

My point is that you are "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when you when you make these sweeping charges about the United States as a whole.

When you speak about Indians, women, and blacks with regards to my country's past, you really show your ignorance about my country's history of laws and your lack of perspective. My comment about the Indians being saved by the white man's medicine had to do with the small pox which they were unable to fight effectively. You had previously posted about how disease brought by the "evil" white man had wiped them out. My point was that the ones that were saved were lucky enough to get vaccinations. And whites had no practical reason to do this but they did it anyways out of a sense of good will and, I suspect, Christian virtue (which the savage Indians seemed to lack). Not all conquering peoples are so merciful. You should take that into consideration. I never made the claim that the Indians needed the white man before the white man even arrived. That would be nonsensical and I don't know why you took my post to mean that considering the context of our discussion. And yes we "took" the Indian's land. Every civilization that ever existed has pretty much displaced people. The Indians who came before had folk myths about displacing other peoples. There is even extensive archeological evidence of this happening. War is war and it's a nasty affair. But no civilization's hands are clean on this matter. And the amount of violence a state commits is and always has been roughly equal to the power a state. (Chomsky actually said this truism in an interview and it seems to hold up by my reading of history.) So of course my country has a more violent track record than a smaller country like Serbia. That doesn't mean you guys in Serbia would be angels if you had the same amount of power. In fact, nature dictates you can't be an angel if you have all that power. The global big boss man is never a pacifist and often can't afford to be nice. That's history. Again, I'm not excusing our wrongs. I'm asking you to put them into perspective.

So I'll ask you again: Who do you want to have the keys? The U.S. (and the West), China, or the Muslim World? I know my choice.

Regarding women, I don't recall Yugoslavia pushing the boundaries on women's rights before the United States. Maybe I'm wrong on this matter. The United States certainly doesn't have much to be ashamed relative to other countries with respect to how it has treated its women. Basically no Westernized country does today, either. Regarding blacks: Simply because blacks had acquired citizenship after the U.S. Civil War in 1865 did not mean that they had a right to integrate with whites. We still had something called freedom of association which was not destroyed legally until the 1950s and 1960s. Destroying freedom of association has done irreparable damage to my country. When people like yourself (who I assume mostly live in lily white communities) speak to me about blacks or how my country committed this grave sin against them by enforcing segregation, I get really annoyed.

Do you not understand the principle of freedom of association and why it's important for any preservationist? It doesn't just have to apply to race, either.

Just because the U.S. has been wrong in the past in big ways, it does not make the Korean situation some relativist game. The U.S. can still have plenty of blemishes on its record (which I'm ready to acknowledge) and still be MUCH better relative to North Korea.

I'd like to bury the hatchet here, so to speak. So I purpose to you that my understanding of the Yugoslav conflict lacks your valuable ethos and perspective if you can acknowledge the same with regards to my country's internal affairs. I think how my country has acted abroad has been a mixed story. Plenty of bad for sure. But I don't see any reason to believe that China would be better. In fact, I suspect they'd be even more brutal if they ran the world.

[Guapo]

So I'll ask you again: Who do you want to have the keys? The U.S. (and the West), China, or the Muslim World? I know my choice.



Most things sold in the U.S. is made in China and you have a muslim president so none of the above.

[Debaser11]

Well, if you live inside of reality, you don't get such a choice. That's preciously my point which seems lost on you two (no offense).

[Cato]

Back on topic lads, you keyboard samurai need to be mindful that this is about the SKorean gooks vs. the NKorean goods and not America vs. Europe.

[Guapo]

Back on topic lads, you keyboard samurai need to be mindful that this is about the SKorean gooks vs. the NKorean goods and not America vs. Europe.

Taste me you will see
More is all you need
You're dedicated to
How I'm killing you

Come crawling faster
Obey your master
Your life burns faster
Obey your master
Master

[Cato]

taste me you will see
more is all you need
you're dedicated to
how i'm killing you

come crawling faster
obey your master
your life burns faster
obey your master
master

Master. Master. Obey your master.

[Debaser11]

Back on topic lads, you keyboard samurai need to be mindful that this is about the SKorean gooks vs. the NKorean goods and not America vs. Europe.

I understand. I'm really not trying to make it that. When I talk about the West vs. *paradigm X*, I'm including South Korea as part of the West because it really is for all intents and purposes. It's not China and it's not part of the Muslim world. It's also "democratic." Anyways, my point in regards to the topic was that it's stupid to be relativist about this conflict even if you're against Europe or America getting involved. Some other posters thought it pertinent to bring up every conceivable crime they could think up committed by the United States for God knows what reason. I think it's childish to think North Korea would be as "nice" as the U.S. if they were wielding the big stick so for that reason I obviously support South Korea even if that nation has its own faults.