Baltic Finnish co-operation?

[The Ripper]

Ever since the beginning of the 20th century, ideas and ideals of Baltic Finnish co-operation have been a recurring theme among nationalists and patriots of the Baltic Finnish nations. In Finland there was the idea of incorporating the Finnic peoples east of the border into a Greater Finland. Estonian politicians and cultural personalities floated the idea of a state union or federation between Finland and Estonia. Today there is a multitude of various NGOs working to improve contacts between the Baltic Finns and working to keep the nations threatened by extinction alive.

So, taking into consideration this history of co-operation on many levels, what are your thoughts? What kind of relations would you like to see ideally between the various Finnic nations? Do you think a state union is an idea that belongs to the past or perhaps one that could become plausible in the future?

[Hweinlant]

I would like to see Balto Finnic federation, based on Switzerland's model. Finland in this model would be chopped into 4-5 (+1 if that bloody Ahvenanmaa doesnt declare independence anytime soon) greater sub-states in order to make sure that local decission making would listen the common man (there would be a lot of local votes, mainly in internet). I'm not sure how the division of Estonia should be handled,perhaps Helsinki metro region and Tallinna metro region should make one big administrative division. Capitol Hellinna. Perhaps the Russian infested part of Estonia should be made one sub-state, it they go then they go. Somehow I think they wouldnt.

Karelian Republic should also be wellcome to this Finnicdom, despite the overhelming Russian majority. It would open a door for real autonomy for Republic and a way out from Russian prison of nations.

[Äike]

Estonian politicians and cultural personalities floated the idea of a state union or federation between Finland and Estonia.

I stumbled upon some artwork on deviantart by a user named Fenn-O-maniC and I found this picture:

Estonian-Finnish union
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/025/b/2/finland_estonia_by_fenn_o_manic-d37p9td.png

In comparison the Kalmar Union, another picture made by him:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/026/c/b/new_kalmar_union_by_fenn_o_manic-d3832ov.png

His art concentrates on maps in general, here's another map by him:
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/359/9/c/how_the_things_must_to_be____by_fenn_o_manic-d35n6fj.png

[The Ripper]

Cool maps. :)

Although, the credibility of such a federation is somewhat diminished by the grammatical mistakes in the Swedish and Estonian names (shouldn't it be "Soome"?). ;) :P

[Äike]

Cool maps. :)

Although, the credibility of such a federation is somewhat diminished by the grammatical mistakes in the Swedish and Estonian names (shouldn't it be "Soome"?). ;) :P

Yeah, it should be "Soome", the Finn who made the map probably had "Suomi" in his head.

Here's also an edited "Nordic map" which only includes independent countries.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9239/wnenordic.png

[ikki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqCHDgMWuYE fascinating lil video, brythonics having organised a society in finland sometimes 600AD?

[The Ripper]

The Ingrian return migration (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23768), that began in the early 1990's and officially ended a couple of years ago got me thinking, whether it would be possible and/or desirable to encourage other Finnic minorities to do likewise? At least in Finland, parts of the country are being depopulated, especially northern and eastern areas. Should we encourage a Finnic migration from the Russian side of the border?

[Äike]

The Ingrian return migration (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23768), that began in the early 1990's and officially ended a couple of years ago got me thinking, whether it would be possible and/or desirable to encourage other Finnic minorities to do likewise? At least in Finland, parts of the country are being depopulated, especially northern and eastern areas. Should we encourage a Finnic migration from the Russian side of the border?

Finnic migration into Finland would be a good idea, but something similar to the Amerindian preserves in the US should be made, to preserve their unique cultural heritage.

I have heard that Russians who have one Ingrian grand-parent(or great-grandparent?), can get Finnish citizenship. This did lead to Finland just getting a bunch of Russian, not Ingrian(native Ingrians went to Finland too, of course) immigrants.

[The Ripper]

Finnic migration into Finland would be a good idea, but something similar to the Amerindian preserves in the US should be made, to preserve their unique cultural heritage.

Any such perserves seem unlikely, however. It would be up to Finns and Estonians to fund it, as is all such work aimed at improving their lot. Or did you mean that if they migrate to Finland, the preserves would be here? I can sort of see that idea working out, we'll just allocate them to the depopulating North East, which is basically adjacent to their current areas in Russia. Even the dialect would be somewhat more familiar than western dialects. :p



I have heard that Russians who have one Ingrian grand-parent(or great-grandparent?), can get Finnish citizenship. This did lead to Finland just getting a bunch of Russian, not Ingrian(native Ingrians went to Finland too, of course) immigrants.

Many of the Ingrians that came were Russians or russified. But I still think we did the right thing in allowing for them and their descendants to come here.

[EWtt]

I read through some ideas allegedly belonging to Estonian president Päts. At least a letter containing these points was apparently presented to some Finnish political figures in September 1941.

He was talking about Finland and Estonia forming a union state and adpoting the principles of constitutional monarchy (the shared head of state being a king) and a system where government establishments would work separately in both countries, but shared issues would be resolved by law-giving delegations (as it was in Austria-Hungary). The union state would have common establishments for defense, foreign politics, economic policies and a common currency as well as common laws for various economic and social areas. The court system would work separately because laws have developed differently on both sides of the gulf. Secondary schools would teach both state languages at a satisfactory level. The formation of a union state would require the constitution of both sides to be revised at a great extent if both countries would adopt the principles of constitutional monarchy. Bringing the constitutions closer to each other should only happen if both nations mutually agree and approve of it. Regarding Baltic Finns outside Estonia and Finland, it was proposed that the borders should be revised or the Finnics could settle in Estonia/Finland. The Russians in Petserimaa and areas behind Narva could resettle to Russia and be replaced by Ingrian tribes while in Finland this should happen at a larger scale in Karelia.

[The Ripper]

I read through some ideas allegedly belonging to Estonian president Päts. At least a letter containing these points was apparently presented to some Finnish political figures in September 1941.

He was talking about Finland and Estonia forming a union state and adpoting the principles of constitutional monarchy (the shared head of state being a king) and a system where government establishments would work separately in both countries, but shared issues would be resolved by law-giving delegations (as it was in Austria-Hungary). The union state would have common establishments for defense, foreign politics, economic policies and a common currency as well as common laws for various economic and social areas. The court system would work separately because laws have developed differently on both sides of the gulf. Secondary schools would teach both state languages at a satisfactory level. The formation of a union state would require the constitution of both sides to be revised at a great extent if both countries would adopt the principles of constitutional monarchy. Bringing the constitutions closer to each other should only happen if both nations mutually agree and approve of it. Regarding Baltic Finns outside Estonia and Finland, it was proposed that the borders should be revised or the Finnics could settle in Estonia/Finland. The Russians in Petserimaa and areas behind Narva could resettle to Russia and be replaced by Ingrian tribes while in Finland this should happen at a larger scale in Karelia.

Sounds very interesting, and I had heard that Päts dreamed of a union during the last years of his life. Is there anything online on this? Preferably in English or Finnish? Estonian will do, too. :)

[EWtt]

Sounds very interesting, and I had heard that Päts dreamed of a union during the last years of his life. Is there anything online on this? Preferably in English or Finnish? Estonian will do, too. :)

Sounds interesting indeed. ;)

Well, here's the source I used, it has the letter in Estonian and some information about it:
http://www.hot.ee/vvlfoorum/liitriik.htm

I found another source which claimed some historians are not fully convinced it was actually written by Päts, and perhaps someone just wanted to give the letter his authority by using his name, although Päts did already talk of the union since the 1920s.

It also had the Finnish translation of the letter:


Perusteet, joihin Viron valtiollisen kehityksen tulisi tukeutua uutta Eurooppaa muodostettaessa.
1. Viron tulisi liittyä Suomeen osavaltiona.
2. Molemmilla valtioilla olisi yhteinen valtionpäämies, tämä olisi helpoimmin toteutettavissa, jos valtionpäänä olisi kuningas.
3. Yhteiset laitokset johtaisivat puolustus- ja ulkopolitiikkaa, yhteinen talouspolitiikka ja raha, yhteiset lait useissa talous – ja sosiaaliasioissa (vekseli, kilpailu, pankkitoiminta, kiinnitykset ja
muut sellaiset).
4. Oppikouluissa järjestettäisiin tyydyttävästi kummankin valtion kielten opetus.
5. Lainsäädäntö- ja hallintoelimet toimivisvat kummassakin valtiossa oman perustuslakinsa puitteissa, mutta molempia koskevien kysymysten ratkaisemiskesi perustettaisiin yhteisiä
lainsäädäntövaltuuskuntia (samaan tapaan kuin entisessä Itävalta-Unkarissa).
6. Kummassakin valtiossa olisi oma oikeuslaitos, sillä sekä siviili- että rikoslainsäädäntö on kummallakin puolella erityyppisen kehityksen tulos.
7. Kummankin valtion rajat tulisi korjata siten, että nykyisten rajojen takana asuvat suomensukuiset kansat jäisivät joko Suomen tai Viron alueelle, tai voisivat muuttaa niille (meillä voisivat Petserin ja Narvan -takaisten kaksikielisten pitäjien venäläiset muuttaa Venäjälle ja heidän tilalleen tulla inkeriläisiä, Suomessa vastaavat toimet laajemmassa mittakaavassa voitaisiin toteuttaa Karjalassa).
8. Liittovaltion toteuttaminen vaatisi molempien maiden perustuslakeihin (en tietenkään tarkoita Viron sosialistisen neuvostotasavallan perustuslakia) läpikäymistä ja täydentämistä, erityisesti siinä tapauksessa, jos valtiot muutettaisiin kuningaskunniksi. Perustuslakien yhdenmukaistamistoimille
tulisi saada molempien maiden kansalaisten suostumus ja hyväksyntä.
9. Kaikki edellä esitetty tulisi ajankohtaiseksi vasta siinä tapauksessa, jos Euroopan voittajavaltiot sisällyttäisivät toimintasuunnitelmiinsa Itämeren rantavaltioiden turvaamisen ja olisivat tarvittaessa valmiit myös voimankäyttöön niiden puolesta. Tätä varten voittajavaltioiden pitäisi kutienkin tietää, mitä toivomuksia paikallisilla kansoilla itsellään on tulevaisuutensa suhteen.
10. Ohimennen voisi todeta, että Latvian ja Liettuan liittyminen uuteen Puolaan lisäisi niiden turvallisuuden ja avaisi Puolalle pääsyn merelle.

(Suomenkielisen käännöksen lähde: Helsingin yliopiston kirjaston arkisto)


http://web-static.vm.ee/static/failid/149/Eesti_Soome_sisu%281%29.pdf

[The Ripper]

I'm currently reading a book about Jaan Tõnisson, written by Finnish social democrat Erkki Tuomioja. The idea of a state union / federation surfaces quite often, usually from the Estonian side. There were however many obstacles and problems which made it difficult to achieve and less desirable. In the very beginning, the problem was that while Finland was strongly orientated towards Germany, Estonia was not, to the contrary even.

All the newly independent states in the region were feverishly attempting orientate themselves towards the west and tried to establish mutual military pacts against the threat of USSR, and Finland was one obvious direction for the Estonians to look to.

One of the most interesting aspect of Finnish-Estonian contacts in the interbellum period are those formed between the Vapsid and the Finnish fascists, the IKL (Isänmaallinen Kansanliike), especially their youth organization Sinimustat.

Does anyone know of any literature focusing on this co-operation? I would definitely like to learn more about it.