Estonian Identity

[Loddfafner]

I see endless debates around this site over whether Estonia is Nordic or East European. I try to ignore them but them realized that I have a very practical need to know the answer: in which album should I store my Estonian stamps? I only have a few so I can't give them one on their own. If I separate them from the other Baltics, the answer is simply to stick them in the corner of my Finnish pages along with the Aalands, and put the whole bunch into my Scandinavia, Ireland, and Benelux album.

If I include them with the rest of the Baltics, the problem is not so simple. I could equally include them in the ex-Soviet or ex-German books, as most of my stamps from that area were actually produced under one or the other's occupations. Some French stamps overprinted "Memel" don't seem to justify throwing the whole thing into the album of French side projects.

[Äike]

Estonia may be called a Baltic country, but the inhabitants(Estonians) aren't Balts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) nor are related to the Balts. We are Finnic and culturally in the Nordic subgroup.

People can argue about Estonia(the country) being Baltic or Nordic, but no one can argue about Estonians(the people) being Nordic.

Grouping Estonia into Eastern-Europe is only possible in one way, by saying that all ex-Eastern block countries are Eastern-European. Thus Eastern-Germans, would be as Eastern-European as Russians.

I'll quote your post (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=262961&postcount=80), so you would get the point:



Corruption as experienced by casual travelers? Northern and Western countries are certainly better than Southern and Eastern ones. I've posted several times about my gripes concerning Hungary and Slovakia. I hear that Russia is much, much worse. Ukraine sounds like it belongs somewhere in Africa. Algeria is a notch below Morocco and Tunisia.

Corruption levels are very high in Southern- and Eastern-Europe. As Estonians are Nordic, our corruption level is very low. The corruption levels are lowest among Nordic countries. Estonia is among the top 3 least corrupt countries in Europe, if I'm not mistaken. While it is a different story with Eastern-European countries.

Out of 4 groups, Northern, Western, Eastern and Southern, Estonia is definitely Northern.

If you would ever travel in Estonia, then you wouldn't have any trouble with corruption, because we are Nordic not Eastern-European. Corruption is non-existent here.

About the stamps... The corner of the Finnish pages would be a good idea, if looking at the cultural background of the stamps. Placing them in the Baltic pages would be correct, if solely looking at geography. I have never been interested in stamps, but Finnish and Estonian stamps would probably be more similar(linguistically etc) than Estonian and Baltic stamps.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Crime and corruption are also low in Switzerland. It must be because they're Nordic too. That's some smattering logic you have.

[The Lawspeaker]

Crime and corruption are also low in Switzerland. It must be because they're Nordic too. That's some smattering logic you have.
Switzerland is for an important part a Germanic country though and also the non-Germanics seem to share the same cultural characteristics. I noticed that a Italian-speaking Swiss is somehow very different from the Italians themselves.

[W. R.]

As Estonians are Nordic, our corruption level is very low. The corruption levels are lowest among Nordic countries. Estonia is among the top 3 least corrupt countries in Europe, if I'm not mistaken.It is really admirable and respectable.

But how Estonia manages to keep the corruption so low? I mean with the comparatively high percentage of non-Estonian residents? I would expect them to spoil the whole statistics. :chin:

[poiuytrewq0987]

It is really admirable and respectable.

But how Estonia manages to keep the corruption so low? I mean with the comparatively high percentage of non-Estonian residents? I would expect them to spoil the whole statistics. :chin:

Corruption index:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption_2009.s vg/800px-World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption_2009.s vg.png

[Äike]

It is really admirable and respectable.

But how Estonia manages to keep the corruption so low? I mean with the comparatively high percentage of non-Estonian residents? I would expect them to spoil the whole statistics. :chin:

One cannot create corruption while being a cleaner or a bus driver. You need to work on higher places to create corruption.


Crime and corruption are also low in Switzerland. It must be because they're Nordic too. That's some smattering logic you have.

Both Northern- and Western-European countries have low corruption when compared to your part of Europe. The Nordic area has low levels of corruption, saying Nordic is easier than counting Norway, Estonia, Finland, Sweden and Denmark.

I also checked my data and Estonia is ranked the 4th least corrupt country in Europe, Iceland is 1st with a very low level of corruption. Greece and Bulgaria were the most corrupt.


Estonia—at least in outsiders’ eyes—is one of the least corrupt countries in Europe, easily beating founder members of the EU such as Italy.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Both Northern- and Western-European countries have low corruption when compared to your part of Europe. The Nordic area has low levels of corruption, saying Nordic is easier than counting Norway, Estonia, Finland, Sweden and Denmark.

I also checked my data and Estonia is ranked the 4th least corrupt country in Europe, Iceland is 1st with a very low level of corruption. Greece and Bulgaria were the most corrupt.

That's easy, my "part" of Europe is war-torn, the result of many wars, invasions and occupations so it's not at all surprising to see the corruption up there in my country. Also, I'd not trust a news article but rather an organization that is dedicated to compiling such information, Transparency International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_International).

[Äike]

That's easy, my "part" of Europe is war-torn, the result of many wars, invasions and occupations so it's not at all surprising to see the corruption up there in my country. Also, I'd not trust a news article but rather an organization that is dedicated to compiling such information, Transparency International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_International).

The news organization took it's information from Transparency International, the chart I looked at was from Transparency International.

[Wyn]

Eastern.


If I separate them from the other Baltics, the answer is simply to stick them in the corner of my Finnish pages along with the Aalands, and put the whole bunch into my Scandinavia, Ireland, and Benelux album.

Estonia in a category with Scandinavia, Ireland, and Benelux? :eek: No.

[Murphy]

This is one of the greatest troll-threads ever. Lodd, you pwn.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The news organization took it's information from Transparency International, the chart I looked at was from Transparency International.

That could only mean two things, either your data is old or inaccurate. This data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) is from 2009 and Estonia is ranked the same as Slovenia and Cyprus.

[Loki]

... no one can argue about Estonians(the people) being Nordic.


I must disagree, sorry Karl. It is possible to include them in the Nordic group of Scandinavia + Finland, but not all agree on this classification. I for one don't. I think Baltic is a more accurate description. If someone says "Nordic" I think Swedish, Norwegian or Danish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries

But, I do not want to hijack Loddfafner's thread, which is meant to sidestep this matter entirely. So I won't respond again on this thread.

[Wyn]

Let's look at the facts...

- It's a Baltic country geographically, nobody can deny that.
- It end's in -ia in its English language name (the most important factor in this discussion).

The only conclusion is that Estonia is an Eastern European country.

/thread. You're welcome, Lodd.

[Äike]

Eastern.

What do I share with Ukrainians, Serbians, Romanians, Russians and Bulgarians?


Estonia in a category with Scandinavia, Ireland, and Benelux? :eek: No.

Well, Estonians share more cultural ties with Western-Europeans than Eastern-Europeans. We live west of the historic border between the Westerners and the Easterners.

http://www.klint.envir.ee/klint/Pildid/650/61-narva.jpg

There's a reason why the Soviets called Estonia and Estonians the West/the Westerners of the USSR.

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png/578px-Grossgliederung_Europas.png

[esaima]

- It end's in -ia in its English language name (the most important factor in this discussion).

Perhaps Estonia needs a new name?
Estony?

[Wyn]

What do I share with Ukrainians, Serbians, Romanians, Russians and Bulgarians?

All your countries' names end in -ia in the English language.


Well, Estonians share more cultural ties with Western-Europeans than Eastern-Europeans. We live west of the historic border between the Westerners and the Easterners.


Let's be honest...do you think many Western Europeans consider Estonians to be Western Europeans with them? And what cultural ties would Estonians share with the Scandinavians and Irish? :confused:

[Äike]

I must disagree, sorry Karl. It is possible to include them in the Nordic group of Scandinavia + Finland, but not all agree on this classification. I for one don't. I think Baltic is a more accurate description. If someone says "Nordic" I think Swedish, Norwegian or Danish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries

But, I do not want to hijack Loddfafner's thread, which is meant to sidestep this matter entirely. So I won't respond again on this thread.

The term Baltic stopped being a geographical term after Finland was removed from the definition.

If you want to describe Estonian culture with 1 word, then Nordic fits us better than Baltic (http://palun.blogspot.com/2006/09/only-post-communist-nordic-country.html).

[San Galgano]

LOL
I don't get why the fuck Italy is always put into every discussion all over the board.
Here we are talking about Estonia, in another thread a russian started attack with no sense italians even if any italians attacked russians.

What you guys would do without Italy?:noidea:

[poiuytrewq0987]

The term Baltic stopped being a geographical term after Finland was removed from the definition.

If you want to describe Estonian culture with 1 word, then Nordic fits us better than Baltic (http://palun.blogspot.com/2006/09/only-post-communist-nordic-country.html).

I disagree, the people in Estonia don't look very alike to Sweden or Norway but more like Latvia or Russia. So Eastern European would be really the only accurate definition to use when describing Estonia.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Here we are talking about Estonia, in another thread a russian started attack with no sense italians even if any italians attacked russians.


Jealousy my friend - those guys have nothing -


What you guys would do without Italy?:noidea:

You should watch German/Dutch/Scandinavian TV - They put Italian flags and flavours on all their products - they buy our cars/clothes/design products - they LOVE Italy! :rolleyes2:

They purchase a little bit of their dreamlife by buying those products!

[Foxy]

Corruption index:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption_2009.s vg/800px-World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption_2009.s vg.png


I thought Italy was far worse, but I see that Russia and Eastern Europe beat us by far. Maybe this is why Berlusconi is so friend to Putin... :lightbul:

[Wyn]

...

Quiet - some men are trying to have a conversation here.

[Vasconcelos]

Yea, Portugal is in the dumps, being a smart-ass is also pretty common in here, as is low-level corruption, which can be in some cases pervasive (example, knowing someone in an upper tier will give you a considerably easier life).

[Loddfafner]

Estonia in a category with Scandinavia, Ireland, and Benelux? :eek: No.

That combo made more sense when Britain was a part of it. When that collection got too large, I moved it to an album with Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Sweden quickly filled up the then-empty pages. Irish stamps resemble Icelandic ones in style enough to keep them there. Scandinavia and Benelux share the bicycle-monarch stereotype.

As the moment, my Baltic stamps are next to Poland in the ex-Soviet album except for the really obvious NSDAP-era issues (Adolf overprinted Östland) and the Memel set which are stored with Germany. I'd like to arrange them so as to best tell the story of the countries in question as they represented themselves on paper. Yet the Baltics are also a part of their neighbor's stories, and not just Russia and Germany. They were in the Swedish Empire, and as for Finland, they represent the fate that nearly befell it.

I keep most of my stamps in 64-page stockbooks divided according to geography which makes for some interesting choices. A while back, I asked either here or on Althing whether the Greek stamps belonged best with Southern Europe, the Balkans, or ex-Ottoman states.

[Äike]

I disagree, the people in Estonia don't look very alike to Sweden or Norway but more like Latvia or Russia. So Eastern European would be really the only accurate definition to use when describing Estonia.

If we would look like Russians, then I wouldn't oppose Russian immigration.

A not so active member of TA, Lenny, who has visited Estonia, has said that Estonians look like Swedes.

A troll like you, who has never been out of the basement and hasn't got the slightest clue even about the looks of his neighbours, probably has no idea how we look.

But we had a discussions about culture not anthropology. Anthropologically, Swedes nor Norwegians are Nordic, because they are mostly borealized Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons, just like us.

[Foxy]

LOL
I don't get why the fuck Italy is always put into every discussion all over the board.
Here we are talking about Estonia, in another thread a russian started attack with no sense italians even if any italians attacked russians.

What you guys would do without Italy?:noidea:

Look any map: Italy is in the centre, when you watch a map of Europe Italy is the first part you notice, maybe also for its booty form.
We have been invented to break the monotony...
EUROPE...

in blue
http://www.sichenia.it/pics/maps/europe1.gif

by night
http://www.cnrperlescuole.cnr.it/download/Image/Europe-night.jpg

from space:
http://www.technochitlins.com/mt-archives/europe-cloudfree-msg1-desk-%20600.jpg

what is the first country you notice?

Anyway Italians could happen only in a country whose form is a boot that kicks Sicily (nothing against Sicily, it is an irony about Lega Nord).

[poiuytrewq0987]

If we would look like Russians, then I wouldn't oppose Russian immigration.

A not so active member of TA, Lenny, who has visited Estonia, has said that Estonians look like Swedes.

A troll like you, who has never been out of the basement and hasn't got the slightest clue even about the looks of his neighbours, probably has no idea how we look.

But we had a discussions about culture not anthropology. Anthropologically, Swedes nor Norwegians are Nordic, because they are mostly borealized Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons, just like us.

Prime Minister of Estonia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Ansip%2C_Andrus_%282007%29_crop.jpg/225px-Ansip%2C_Andrus_%282007%29_crop.jpg

And as to culture? It's more Finnic not Nordic or Baltic.

[Äike]

They were in the Swedish Empire, and as for Finland, they represent the fate that nearly befell it.


Lithuania was never part of the Swedish Empire and Latvia was part of it only for a short period of time. Neither of those countries also had Danish rule. While our capital is literally called "Danish town"/"Taani linn = Tallinn".

I have said this before and I say this again, looking at this area as a single entity is a bad idea.

There's a reason why Estonians are Lutheran and Lithuanians are Catholic. Because we weren't ruled by the same factions.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Switzerland is for an important part a Germanic country though and also the non-Germanics seem to share the same cultural characteristics. I noticed that a Italian-speaking Swiss is somehow very different from the Italians themselves.


I have been in Ticino (Italian section)
I have noticed nothing like that - they are very proud of beeing an Italian(-Swiss)! - hell! they even go shopping in Italy -

The thing I am sure of - there is a huge difference between German-Swiss (who are huge arsholes) and Svizzeri-Italiani -

[Foxy]

I have been in Ticino (Italian section)
I have noticed nothing like that - hell! they go shopping in Italy - and they are very proud of beeing an Italian(-Swiss)!

The thing I am sure of - there is a huge difference between German-Swiss (who are huge arsholes) and Swizzeri-Italiani -

Oh yes a big difference: German Suisses have a squared head, Italians Suisses have an equilateral triangular head.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have been in Ticino (Italian section)
I have noticed nothing like that - they are very proud of beeing an Italian(-Swiss)! - hell! they even go shopping in Italy -

The thing I am sure of - there is a huge difference between German-Swiss (who are huge arsholes) and Swizzeri-Italiani -
I found them to be more clean and efficient compared to the Italians.

[Loddfafner]

Lithuania was never part of the Swedish Empire and Latvia was part of it only for a short period of time. Neither of those countries also had Danish rule. While our capital is literally called "Danish town"/"Taani linn = Tallinn".


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Swedish_Empire_in_Early_Modern_Europe_%281560-1815%29.png

[San Galgano]

Switzerland is for an important part a Germanic country though and also the non-Germanics seem to share the same cultural characteristics. I noticed that a Italian-speaking Swiss is somehow very different from the Italians themselves.

Must be the Hypnotizing swiss cuckoo clock that make them so different from italians.

[Äike]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/Swedish_Empire_in_Early_Modern_Europe_%281560-1815%29.png

If you arguing my definition of short when talking about Latvia, then I'll point out that Livonia was more Estonian(it included Southern-Estonia) and Livonian than Latvian/Baltic/Latgal. Also, not all of the territory of Latvia was ruled by the Swedish Empire.

[The Lawspeaker]

Must be the Hypnotizing swiss cuckoo clock that make them so different from italians.
Or the close proximity and influence of the Germanic culture. For some reason Ticino seemed to be cleaner then what came on the other side of the border but that maybe is also because you nearly right away end up in the flood plains of the Po which was less organised for some reason and much busier.

[Tyrrhenoi]

I found them to be more clean and efficient compared to the Italians.

As far as I know Italians invented soap :D LoL - I am not going to insult you as a countryman ! But I know some regions in Holland who are far worse than Southern-Italy!

DHnum96AH6Q
Assen in Holland


Die Zwitserse-Duitsers zijn grote afzetters en klootzakken - de Zwitsers hebben niet bepaald een superimago - maar ik zal de germanische genossen niet verder beledigen!

[The Lawspeaker]

As far as I know Italians invented soap :D LoL - I am not going to insult you as a countryman ! But I know some regions in Holland who are far worse than the worse Italians!

43CmlnSW0vY
Assen in Holland


Die Zwitserse-Duitsers zijn grote afzetters en klootzakken - de Zwitsers hebben niet bepaald een superimago - maar ik zal de germanische genossen niet verder beledigen!

:) Sorry als ik het wat hard stelde.
Het was eerder landschappelijk bedoeld. Ik vond de Povlakte een enorme chaos vergeleken met het keurig aangeharkte Zwitserland. Als je net uit de Alpen komt en net Italië binnen rijd laat het land zich niet bepaald van zijn mooiste kant zien. Vooral rondom Milaan is het afschuwelijk lelijk op de weg en pas je Ligurië in rijd wordt Italië echt mooi.

De Italiaanse Zwitser (de Zwitser in het algemeen) vind ik wat kil maar wel heel correct en ik heb eigenlijk geen slechte ervaringen met ze gehad. De enige Italiaan waar ik een schijthekel aan heb is de Siciliaan. Hoe vaak dat soort volk me wel niet geprobeerd heeft op te lichten zeg. Haha !

En ja.. sommige delen van Nederland kunnen er qua chaos ook wat van. Onze hele Randstad bijvoorbeeld.

[Loddfafner]

Must be the Hypnotizing swiss cuckoo clock that make them so different from italians.

Since the Swiss/Italian distinction has somehow come up even though the thread is about the Baltic region, I may as well raise a related stamp-categorization quandary. As I stated upthread, my collection must fit into geographically-defined 64-page books. My Southern European collection is too small for one album, even with the addition of Greece and Albania, so I have room for overflow from another region. My North African collection is too large for the space so that leaves me with Switzerland, which fits nicely and frees up space in my Germany/Austria-Hungary/Jugoslavia album.

This seems to make sense as Switzerland is almost as Italian as it is German, and the style and aesthetics of Swiss stamps is strikingly similar to those from Italy. I realize this may push against local sensitivities so maybe I should get hold of a new album just for anomalous, liminal areas such as Switzerland, the Baltics, and perhaps Andorra?

[Fortis in Arduis]

http://www.nioutaik.fr/images/galerie/i-came-ghostbuster.jpg

[San Galgano]

Or the close proximity and influence of the Germanic culture. For some reason Ticino seemed to be cleaner then what came on the other side of the border but that maybe is also because you nearly right away end up in the flood plains of the Po which was less organised for some reason and much busier.

Yeah of course, it must be the germanic influence for sure, not the fact that beyond banks Switzerland has no industries. They should bring swiss germans in Hamburg and over the Rhyne too though.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah of course, it must be the germanic influence for sure, not the fact that beyond banks Switzerland has no industries. They should brought swiss germans in Hamburg and over the Rhyne too though.

Let me translate that. And Switzerland has industry by the way. It has just fewer people and maintains it's infrastructure better.


Sorry als ik het wat hard stelde.
Het was eerder landschappelijk bedoeld. Ik vond de Povlakte een enorme chaos vergeleken met het keurig aangeharkte Zwitserland. Als je net uit de Alpen komt en net Italië binnen rijd laat het land zich niet bepaald van zijn mooiste kant zien. Vooral rondom Milaan is het afschuwelijk lelijk op de weg en pas je Ligurië in rijd wordt Italië echt mooi.

De Italiaanse Zwitser (de Zwitser in het algemeen) vind ik wat kil maar wel heel correct en ik heb eigenlijk geen slechte ervaringen met ze gehad. De enige Italiaan waar ik een schijthekel aan heb is de Siciliaan. Hoe vaak dat soort volk me wel niet geprobeerd heeft op te lichten zeg. Haha !

En ja.. sommige delen van Nederland kunnen er qua chaos ook wat van. Onze hele Randstad bijvoorbeeld.

Sorry if I was sounding a bit harsh.
I was talking infrastructure and spatial planning here. The floodplains of the Po looked like a mess compared to meticulously maintained and cared for Switzerland. When you just come out of the Alps Italy doesn't at first show it's beautiful side. Especially around Milano it was a mess alongside the road and only when you enter Liguria does Italy become really beautiful.

The Swiss Italians (the Swiss in general perhaps) I found them to be remote, but very correct in their manners and I have had no ill experiences with them. The only Italians that I truly loathe are Sicilians. Can you believe how often that scum has tried to hazzle me ? Haha !

And yes.. some parts of the Netherlands are a mess too. Like our Randstad (note: the densely populated part.)

[Foxy]

Suisses, not distiontions between German S. and Italian S., are the less friendly and socialising people in the world. Really: they are not able to make you laugh neither when they are drunk.
The only ones who looked pretty humans were the French S. of Neuchatel.
For the rest I have been in Losanna, Airolo, Interlaken and Berna and the only nice person I have met was Heidi.

[San Galgano]

Since the Swiss/Italian distinction has somehow come up even though the thread is about the Baltic region, I may as well raise a related stamp-categorization quandary. As I stated upthread, my collection must fit into geographically-defined 64-page books. My Southern European collection is too small for one album, even with the addition of Greece and Albania, so I have room for overflow from another region. My North African collection is too large for the space so that leaves me with Switzerland, which fits nicely and frees up space in my Germany/Austria-Hungary/Jugoslavia album.

This seems to make sense as Switzerland is almost as Italian as it is German, and the style and aesthetics of Swiss stamps is strikingly similar to those from Italy. I realize this may push against local sensitivities so maybe I should get hold of a new album just for anomalous, liminal areas such as Switzerland, the Baltics, and perhaps Andorra?

I'd add even a quotation about San Marino and of course Vatican just to drive the conversation into something more metaphysics.

[Foxy]

Let me translate that. And Switzerland has industry by the way. It has just fewer people and maintains it's infrastructure better.



Sorry if I was sounding a bit harsh.
I was talking infrastructure and spatial planning here. The floodplains of the Po looked like a mess compared to meticulously maintained and cared for Switzerland. When you just come out of the Alps Italy doesn't at first show it's beautiful side. Especially around Milano it was a mess alongside the road and only when you enter Liguria does Italy become really beautiful.

The Swiss Italians (the Swiss in general perhaps) I found them to be remote, but very correct in their manners and I have had no ill experiences with them. The only Italians that I truly loathe are Sicilians. Can you believe how often that scum has tried to hazzle me ? Haha !

And yes.. some parts of the Netherlands are a mess too. Like our Randstad (note: the densely populated part.)

It depends on from which part of Italy you entered. By Stevius' Pass, Saint Gottard's Pass or Monte Bianco Pass the landscapes are very beautiful. Anyway I suggest you to do alway the passes and not the tunnels. You need a bit more time but you see the most beautiful mountains of Europe.
Besides I love mountains so Alpine area (northern Italy, Bavaria and Austria are my paradise). But in the Italian side you have the sun, in the Austrian side you have the rain. Switzerland also is very beautiful and Abruzzo too (highest mountains of the Appennine). But Abruzzo looks a bit different, let's say like Ireland with mountains.

[Loki]

Edit:

Oops sorry, wrong thread. I thought this one was about Estonia.

[The Lawspeaker]

It depends on from which part of Italy you entered. By Stevius' Pass, Saint Gottard's Pass or Monte Bianco Pass the landscapes are very beautiful. Anyway I suggest you to do alway the passes and not the tunnels. You need a bit more time but you see the most beautiful mountains of Europe:
We took the pass over the Gotthard but I noted that the infrastructure became less well maintained and the landscape the same (and flatter after some time) when we went into Italy itself. It was in 2002 and during a hot summer (most streams had fallen dry) I think so maybe it has changed a bit by now ?

The landscape remained uncouth and flat btw until we reached the Appenines and Liguria. I think in some ways the bit of Lombardy I saw looked like the Netherlands (flat) but just not maintained at all.

But then again it could also have been a shock at first because the Swiss really look after their environment and you do know the reputation Italians have when it comes to that (regrettably) ?

[Foxy]

We took the pass over the Gotthard but I noted that the infrastructure became less well maintained and the landscape the same (and flatter after some time) when we went into Italy itself. It was in 2002 and during a hot summer (most streams had fallen dry) I think so maybe it has changed a bit by now ?

The landscape remained uncouth and flat btw until we reached the Appenines and Liguria. I think in some ways it looked like the Netherlands (flat) but just not maintained at all.

But then again it could also have been a shock at first because the Swiss really look after their environment and you do know the reputation Italians have when it comes to that (regrettably) ?

I suggest a split.

However it is obvious that after some times the landscape became flatter: you were entering the Padanian Flat :coffee:
And the Appenine is high in central Italy, in particular in Abruzzo. The rest is more hilly than mountanious.

Abruzzo (my region <3 ):
http://www.abruzzoturismo.net/_immagini/itinerari/maiella%2005.jpg
http://www.abruzzoturismo.net/_immagini/itinerari/maiella%2003.jpg
http://www.abruzzoturismo.net/_immagini/itinerari/maiella.jpg
http://www.lapieja.it/images/autunno1.JPG
http://www.lapieja.it/Photogalleries1/ott20040039.JPG
http://www.abruzzoturismo.net/_immagini/pagine-principali/bosco-area-monti-laga.jpg

anyway if you are looking for classy chalets don't come here, becouse the region is pretty savage.

The fact that you say that Italy appears less ordered is due to the fact that on our side it falls less rain, so the landscape is a bit drier. On the Appennine mountains are dry, but contains water udner the ground. I am not a geologist, but I have been explained that our mountains are made of a particular rock that works like a sponge, indeed Abruzzo has so much water that we send it to the South during the dry summers.

[San Galgano]

We took the pass over the Gotthard but I noted that the infrastructure became less well maintained and the landscape the same (and flatter after some time) when we went into Italy itself. It was in 2002 and during a hot summer (most streams had fallen dry) I think so maybe it has changed a bit by now ?

The landscape remained uncouth and flat btw until we reached the Appenines and Liguria. I think in some ways the bit of Lombardy I saw looked like the Netherlands (flat) but just not maintained at all.

I think Switzerland is not a good place to compare with, not only Italy, but the whole Europe save maybe Luxembourg. Their maniacal environmental maintenance is biblical.

Lombardy is one of the richest region in Europe and its economy is based over industries which make the places around dirty as in the whole Europe. Manchester is different from London, Ruhr is not as clean as Luxembourg and so on.


Anyway save the outskirts of Milan and the surrounding highways which are crossed daily by tons of trucks, cars and so on for work purposes, places like Como, Bergamo, Monza, Varese are very clean.

[Treffie]

Why do I get this overwhelming feeling to want to slit my own throat?

[San Galgano]

Why do I get this overwhelming feeling to want to slit my own throat?

Major depressive disorder?



I'm joking, that was my last off-topic post Ken.:thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

I think Switzerland is not a good place to compare with, not only Italy, but the whole Europe save maybe Luxembourg. Their maniacal environmental maintenance is biblical.
I share their ideas and I think that Italy (which has the reputation for being a beautiful country) should definetely adopt that stance and clean up the place- big time. :thumb001:
If you keep your place well-kept it shows that you're proud of your country. You do the same thing with your house, right ? This is just on a slightly bigger scale.



Lombardy is one of the richest region in Europe and its economy is based over industries which make the places around dirty as in the whole Europe. Manchester is different from London, Ruhr is not as clean as Luxembourg and so on.
If you have it - flaunt it. and not just because it looks good but because it's neccesary: the space is densely populated and space is limited. Maybe the industries have to be cleaned up with modern technology and proper rules. The power lines put underground and the houses freshly painted - flowers in the gardens.
After all: if you have the industrial power and wealth and are one of the most cultured and richest regions in Europe you might just as well show it.



Anyway save the outskirts of Milan and the surrounding highways which are crossed daily by tons of trucks, cars and so on for work purposes, places like Como, Bergamo, Monza, Varese are very clean.
Maybe Italy needs to revamp it's infrastructure and policies regarding spatial planning and particularly then in Lombardy. Being an economical centre is not a reason to be dirty - it's actually a good reason for being even more clean and efficient because it's the economic center of Italy and Europe's visiting card.

Como, Bergamo, Monza and Varese may be very clean but Milan is not and that's what's need some serious sorting. If your roads are clogged and dirty and outdated then that should be a good reason to update the entire network in that region, to put the rails in Milan and thoroughfares underground and use the available space twice with more parks, office blocks and apartment blocks.


I am asking for a split.

[Äike]

I must disagree, sorry Karl. It is possible to include them in the Nordic group of Scandinavia + Finland, but not all agree on this classification. I for one don't. I think Baltic is a more accurate description. If someone says "Nordic" I think Swedish, Norwegian or Danish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries

But, I do not want to hijack Loddfafner's thread, which is meant to sidestep this matter entirely. So I won't respond again on this thread.

I searched Google with the term "Baltic people" and this is what I found:


Baltic people in the United Kingdom
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baltic people in the United Kingdom are those born or raised/resident in the UK who are of Estonian (although only considered Baltic geographically, not linguistically or culturally), Latvian and Lithuanian origin.

This is exactly what I meant, Estonia is Baltic in the same sense (geographically) as Finland was in 1920 and 1930.

But we are talking about Estonians, the people, who are Nordic. Only poorly educated people think that Estonians are (culturally/linguistically) Baltic. Very poorly educated people think that we are Slavs :ohwell:

No one considers Estonians to be Baltic people. Thus I have to point out that you're wrong.

[San Galgano]

I share their ideas and I think that Italy (which has the reputation for being a beautiful country) should definetely adopt that stance and clean up the place- big time. :thumb001:
If you keep your place well-kept it shows that you're proud of your country. You do the same thing with your house, right ? This is just on a slightly bigger scale.

Maybe you have not idea of the quantity of industries present in Lombardy and the large types of materials they work. In Italy we have not natural resources which people work on creating that way a basin with an only one product like some places in Germany with steel(easier to clean).
Anyway i have been in several european places and more or less the industrial districts are all that way. Where the highways were cleaner the cities were less clean and viceversa sometime. In Italy is "viceversa", the industrial district are not very clean but the cities are cleaner.




If you have it - flaunt it. Maybe the industries have to be cleaned up with modern technology and proper rules. The power lines put underground and the houses freshly painted - flowers in the gardens.
After all: if you have the industrial power and wealth and are one of the most cultured and richest regions in Europe you might just as well show it.

Pure Utopia not followed by any big industrial district. I have travelled enough to know this in Europe. The more the industry is diversified the more the place is dirty. The less an industry is diversified the more is clean.



Maybe Italy needs to revamp it's infrastructure and policies regarding spatial planning and particularly then in Lombardy. Being an economical centre is not a reason to be dirty - it's actually a good reason for being even more clean and efficient because it's the economic center of Italy and Europe's visiting card.
As i said earlier. If you could jump from Luxembourg to the Rhur you would have the same point of View you had vìsiting Switzerland and then Milan.



Como, Bergamo, Monza and Varese may be very clean but Milan is not and that's what's need some serious sorting. If your roads are clogged and dirty and outdated then that should be a good reason to update the entire network in that region, to put the rails in Milan and thoroughfares underground and use the available space twice with more parks, office blocks and apartment blocks.

[FONT="Georgia"]
I am asking for a split.

[/QUOTE]

I think you have lot of space in Netherland otherwise you would not talk of new office blocks and apartment blocks.
As for the highways infrastructure, who said that in Lombardy are outdated? Maybe some parts are dirty but outdated not.

[esaima]

I think there is no such thing like Nordic culture, at least as a term which can include Estonian culture, because Estonians aren´t ethno-linguistically Nordic. As a cultural term one can use "Baltic-Finnic" if one wants to say where Esronia belongs.

The term "Nordic" means only Scandinavian +Finnish culture.

The initial meaning of "Nordic" was /has been "Scandinavian". Because of is extra relations with Sweden, Swedes and Swedish language(!) Finland is often considered Nordic. But there are even many Scandinavians who don´t consider even Finland Nordic.Not talking about Estonia.

[Ilya.S]

I would say that Estonians aren't Nordic but neither are they Balts.
But, I would describe them as something apart, Balto-Finnic or just Finnic maybe.
The reason why they aren't Nordic and Finns are, is because of the long time Finnish contacts with the Swedes and because they were a part of Sweden for a long time.
But Estonia on the other hand is pretty much isolated from both Finland and Scandinavia.
(physically at least)
I guess that if Estonia would be located on other place, bordering Finland or being part of it for example, it could have been considered Nordic.
But what's the importance of being Nordic anyway?

[Harcos]

I see the Nordic people as being a combination of North Germanics and Baltic-Finnics. Hence including Estonians.

But that's just my opinion.

[esaima]

I see the Nordic people as being a combination of North Germanics and Baltic-Finnics. Hence including Estonians.

But that's just my opinion.
;) One can see Baltic people as being a combination of Balts and Baltic-Finnics. Hence including Estonians.

[Harcos]

;) One can see Baltic people as being a combination of Balts and Baltic-Finnics. Hence including Estonians.

Good point.

I've never seen anyone claim Finland as a Baltic nation though. But it is true that hardly anyone sees Estonia as a Nordic nation over here. When people speak of Norden they usually mean five nations; Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Norway and Finland.

It's down to your own personal opinion in the end I guess.

I don't understand why it's so much of a big deal though.

[The Lawspeaker]

Maybe you have not idea of the quantity of industries present in Lombardy and the large types of materials they work. In Italy we have not natural resources which people work on creating that way a basin with an only one product like some places in Germany with steel(easier to clean).
Actually I have. But the secret is in combining spaces and unifited management coupled with a firm environmental control. And I don't mean the kind of regulation that you can't build here because some environmental group has let loose some "rare animals" but codes regulation the exhaust ("it's your environment, your surroundings so take pride in it: don't fill it with pollution if you can avoid it") and a new view on industrial parks: treat them as if were public spaces under private control with a company having the right to maintain and hire out spaces in a certain industrial park.



Anyway i have been in several european places and more or less the industrial districts are all that way. Where the highways were cleaner the cities were less clean and viceversa sometime. In Italy is "viceversa", the industrial district are not very clean but the cities are cleaner.
Yes. The problem is that we in industrialized areas we can't really afford to make a mess of the place as unlike f.i the United States we are relatively densely populated.



Pure Utopia not followed by any big industrial district. I have travelled enough to know this in Europe. The more the industry is diversified the more the place is dirty. The less an industry is diversified the more is clean.
Yes.. but industry doesn't have to be dirty and messy and ti should even be a place to work with pride and where you feel comfortable even if it's uses are diversified if one could have a spatial planning and building code in place. Take for instance the Flight Forum development in Eindhoven (the Netherlands). The building code and overall design have been unified: companies don't need to look after the immediate industrial park as there is a unified management and maintenance service:

http://molo.projecttoolkit.nl/Communities/Common/Images/molo/ff%20op%20home%202.jpg

http://www.eindhoven.nl/upload_mm/2/d/2/44250_fullimage_flight%20forum%2002.jpg

One could couple it with communal services like a small shopping centre where workers and employers can buy some groceries or have a lunch and with a small park at it's centre.



As i said earlier. If you could jump from Luxembourg to the Rhur you would have the same point of View you had vìsiting Switzerland and then Milan.
Yes. Because it's such a mess right now while it doesn't have to be a mess. :thumb001: We don't use the available space right and we certainly don't use it in a humane manner. There are large parts of cities where even when all the immigrants were gone you wouldn't let your kids walk - much less on an industrial zone.



I think you have lot of space in Netherland otherwise you would not talk of new office blocks and apartment blocks.
As for the highways infrastructure, who said that in Lombardy are outdated? Maybe some parts are dirty but outdated not.
Actually. We have a genuine shortage of space and that's why space should be concentrated and one should find a number of uses for the same space.
For instance: think about a railway yard next to the station in downtown Milano. One could keep it open even though there is a lot of pressure on that area but one could also move out the industrial uses to a new yard outside Milano and roof the entire yard over and put parks on it and combine with office blocks - used by multiple companies. Suppose you have a tramline outside that railway station: put it in a metro line underneath that station and couple it with a bus yard and even put a motorway tunnel, a parking garage (with a kiss&ride) next to that underground bus station and you use the same space four times over - couple it with shops and you have a commercial district with a public transport junction, a direct link to the motorway where cars and buses can drop off passengers that need to use a tram, subway or train, and parks where people can work, live, recreate and use transport in a relatively tiny amount of space. And very important: when there are a lot of businesses involved in the same kind of business: facilitate clustering.

This at the moment is also taking place here in the Netherlands where we are now forced to combine uses of precious space. In Asia of course they have much more experience in this.


There are some other ideas too: when you have a motorway in a densely populated area it always ends up in chaos but there a couple of nice tricks to solve the worst as the majority of problems are being caused not just by the number of cars on the road but also by people that have to change lanes all the time. So what they did at the Eindhoven bypass: they seperated local traffic from traffic that needed to be somewhere else. Before Eindhoven they make you select a lane for local traffic and traffic that is passing through and they noticed that the majority of all traffic was of course local. This really cleaned up the road.

1T_wHor0DC8
The driver keeps driving on the motorway while the lanes for local traffic can be seen on the right hand side.

And if one can couple that with P&R facilities coupled with tramlines and a bus station (and where possible the underground) so those that don't strictly need to use a car can drop them off there and get on public transport that will take them to their required destination.

[Äike]

I think there is no such thing like Nordic culture, at least as a term which can include Estonian culture, because Estonians aren´t ethno-linguistically Nordic. As a cultural term one can use "Baltic-Finnic" if one wants to say where Esronia belongs.

Only on the internet I can meet people like you. Anyway, by Nordic culture I mean similar burial customs several thousand years ago stone worship/lohukivid, making viking raids in longships etc.

In a way if you compare the Finnish and Estonian cultures before they were incorporated by the Swedes/Danes(only for Estonia), then Estonians, especially Western-Estonians resembled other Scandinavians quite a lot.



The term "Nordic" means only Scandinavian +Finnish culture.

If Finnish culture is Nordic, then Estonian culture is even more Nordic.


The initial meaning of "Nordic" was /has been "Scandinavian". Because of is extra relations with Sweden, Swedes and Swedish language(!) Finland is often considered Nordic.

Your point is that Nordic = Swedish influence, that is false.


But there are even many Scandinavians who don´t consider even Finland Nordic.Not talking about Estonia.

They consider Finland, Nordic, but they do not consider them Scandinavian. There's a difference between the word "Scandinavian" and "Nordic". Finns aren't Scandinavian, but they are Nordic. You are always saying that Estonians aren't Nordic, because we aren't Scandinavian.

In the last few months, it has been very hard for me to understand in which posts you are serious and in which posts you are trolling. Thus I'm taking you half-seriously.

[Wyn]

How would you concisely define Nordic?

To most people Nordic countries = Scandinavia+Finland.

[San Galgano]

Actually I have. But the secret is in combining spaces and unifited management coupled with a firm environmental control. And I don't mean the kind of regulation that you can't build here because some environmental group has let loose some "rare animals" but codes regulation the exhaust ("it's your environment, your surroundings so take pride in it: don't fill it with pollution if you can avoid it") and a new view on industrial parks: treat them as if were public spaces under private control with a company having the right to maintain and hire out spaces in a certain industrial park.

Surely they did some cooperative management, since i don't know exactly all the industrial zones and Lombardy has many industrial places. I know Monza and Como are industrial areas with lot of green and retrained places and Milan area a little less cause it combines a metropolis with high industrialization but there are retrained places there too . There is also Veneto in north east Italy which combines management of environment with industralization, though Veneto has not a metropolis like Milan.
Anyway i didn't mean that Milan is out of control for pollution and dirty, but only that it is the typical big industrial city as you can find in many other parts of Europe that have not the same maniacal manteinance that is typical of Swiss and Luxemburg and have made them become famous for this matter.





Yes.. but industry doesn't have to be dirty and messy and ti should even be a place to work with pride and where you feel comfortable even if it's uses are diversified if one could have a spatial planning and building code in place. Take for instance the Flight Forum development in Eindhoven (the Netherlands). The building code and overall design have been unified: companies don't need to look after the immediate industrial park as there is a unified management and maintenance service:
Wait a moment, i think you have misunderstood me. I don't know what dirty and messy you have seen in Milan or you think i was speaking about, I spoken of a typical little mess and dirty that you can find usually in Metropolis who have so close an industrial area too. Milan has more than 1,5 million people in the city and more than 5 million in the urban area, that it extends with a ray of 40kms, Eindhoven has 250000 inhabitants. I think it's normal the highways and the outskirts in Milan are a bit more messy and dirty than Switzerland or Eindhoven but Milan doesn't lack industrial zones under one cooperative management, people friendly and very clean too:
http://it.convergencepoint.westcon.com/gswi/media/noxs_it/Image/colleoni-noxs.jpg
http://www.tomshw.it/files/2010/05/immagini/25127/cologno-monzese_t.jpg




One could couple it with communal services like a small shopping centre where workers and employers can buy some groceries or have a lunch and with a small park at it's centre.


Yes. Because it's such a mess right now while it doesn't have to be a mess. :thumb001: We don't use the available space right and we certainly don't use it in a humane manner. There are large parts of cities where even when all the immigrants were gone you wouldn't let your kids walk - much less on an industrial zone.


Actually. We have a genuine shortage of space and that's why space should be concentrated and one should find a number of uses for the same space.
For instance: think about a railway yard next to the station in downtown Milano. One could keep it open even though there is a lot of pressure on that area but one could also move out the industrial uses to a new yard outside Milano and roof the entire yard over and put parks on it and combine with office blocks - used by multiple companies. Suppose you have a tramline outside that railway station: put it in a metro line underneath that station and couple it with a bus yard and even put a motorway tunnel, a parking garage (with a kiss&ride) next to that underground bus station and you use the same space four times over - couple it with shops and you have a commercial district with a public transport junction, a direct link to the motorway where cars and buses can drop off passengers that need to use a tram, subway or train, and parks where people can work, live, recreate and use transport in a relatively tiny amount of space. And very important: when there are a lot of businesses involved in the same kind of business: facilitate clustering.

This at the moment is also taking place here in the Netherlands where we are now forced to combine uses of precious space. In Asia of course they have much more experience in this.


There are some other ideas too: when you have a motorway in a densely populated area it always ends up in chaos but there a couple of nice tricks to solve the worst as the majority of problems are being caused not just by the number of cars on the road but also by people that have to change lanes all the time. So what they did at the Eindhoven bypass: they seperated local traffic from traffic that needed to be somewhere else. Before Eindhoven they make you select a lane for local traffic and traffic that is passing through and they noticed that the majority of all traffic was of course local. This really cleaned up the road.


And if one can couple that with P&R facilities coupled with tramlines and a bus station (and where possible the underground) so those that don't strictly need to use a car can drop them off there and get on public transport that will take them to their required destination.


The fact is that there is everything like that in Milan. From modern subway that links city to the several industrial poles(there are more than one)parkings, etc,etc. but Milan's core is basically everything from the center(where the financial part is)until the outskirts. There isn't a single zone in Milan that it is not vital for business. The problem is that it is a very crowded city too and it attracts people from the surrounding provinces who work there.

Basically who drives toward Milan wants to reach the center or the industrial outskirts, so you basically can't make a distinction between local traffic and others. Add to this the number of people circulating there.


Train station has something like 320000 people a day. I think there are some problems to manage Milan like a more little city.

[Äike]

How would you concisely define Nordic?

Estonians are Nordic in the same way as Scandinavians and Finns. Now define to yourself, how Scandinavians and Finns are Nordic and you have an answer.


To most people Nordic countries = Scandinavia+Finland.

That's because the majority of Europeans think that Estonians are Slavs and a minority thinks we are Balts. Both opinions are wrong.

[Wyn]

I'm just after a definition of Nordic?

[The Lawspeaker]

Surely they did some cooperative management, since i don't know exactly all the industrial zones and Lombardy has many industrial places. I know Monza and Como are industrial areas with lot of green and retrained places and Milan area a little less cause it combines a metropolis with high industrialization but there are retrained places there too . There is also Veneto in north east Italy which combines management of environment with industralization, though Veneto has not a metropolis like Milan.
Should they perhaps all adopt that Flight Forum-model and adopt it to suit Italian standards followed by a genuine spatial-planning master plan of the entire region ?



Anyway i didn't mean that Milan is out of control for pollution and dirty, but only that it is the typical big industrial city as you can find in many other parts of Europe that have not the same maniacal manteinance that is typical of Swiss and Luxemburg and have made them become famous for this matter.
I think that it's basically economic growth gone out of control with no all-round master-plan to guide development and without guidance for updates of the urban plans and the transportation network - much less environmental control.

Sometimes maniacal maintenance and spatial planning pays off.




Wait a moment, i think you have misunderstood me. I don't know what dirty and messy you have seen in Milan or you think i was spoken about, I was spoken of a typical little mess and dirty that you can find usually in Metropolis who have so close an industrial area too. Milan has more than 1,5 million people in the city and more than 5 million in the urban area, that it extends with a ray of 40kms, Eindhoven has 250000 inhabitants. I think it's normal the highways and the outskirts in Milan are a bit more messy and dirty than Switzerland or Eindhoven but Milan doesn't lack industrial zones under one cooperative management, people friendly and very clean too:
http://it.convergencepoint.westcon.com/gswi/media/noxs_it/Image/colleoni-noxs.jpg
http://www.tomshw.it/files/2010/05/immagini/25127/cologno-monzese_t.jpg

It's just that we have to think about a slightly bigger scale of operating. I wonder whether the transport network around Milan and inside the city is up to par ? But then again: Italy doesn't really have a history regarding spatial planning so they could learn a bit from their neighbours. F.I I think that Lombardy in general could look at the Dutch as we both share a couple of things: flat land, industrialisation on a massive scale, high HDI and relative overpopulation. Basically it would be a sound idea for Italy to come up with the idea of focussing on Lombardy and it's modernisation in the same way as we do here in the Randstad. Southern Italy is o.k.. and so is Groningen and Limburg but that's not where the people live and work. So there should be a consistent master-plan aiming at updating all the areas and clustering sustainable economic growth on a case to case basis.








The fact is that there is everything like that in Milan. From modern subway that links city to the several industrial poles(there are more than one)parkings, etc,etc. but Milan's core is basically everything from the center(where the financial part is)until the outskirts. There isn't a single zone in Milan that it is not vital for business. The problem is that it is a very crowded city too and it attracts people from the surrounding provinces who work there.
Exactly. In that respect you have the apparent over-centralization of Milan coupled with and a transport network that maybe there but that can't really hold it (Milan needs at least 8 lane motorways - 8 lanes both ways, I haven't seen those there) - they may have the subway's but apparently not on a big enough scale ? What they could do is open up additional commercial zones around motorways and above motorways so people that turn off at offramps get straight to their office or can take the subway/train/tram/bus to their perceived destination..



Basically who drives toward Milan wants to reach the center or the industrial outskirts, so you basically can't make a distinction between local traffic and others. Add to this the number of people circulating there.
Same in Eindhoven but the hell starts for people that need to pass through so one could also make another by-pass around Milan thus avoiding the city altogether and using the present bypass as a kind of urban motorway from one industrial zone to the next. Call it your Essingeleden or Boulevard Périphérique.



Train station has something like 320000 people a day. I think there are some problems to manage Milan like a more little city.
Time to cluster and anticipate on a slightly bigger scale then. :) This really sounds like the problems we have in the Randstad here - just slightly more problematic because the transport network is not up to par..

[esaima]

Karl; Only on the internet I can meet people like you.
No, no.The internet is the place there people like you dominate: certainly "Nordicists" are predominating among Estonian posters.I myself nearly don´t post elsewhere.


Anyway, by Nordic culture I mean similar burial customs several thousand years ago stone worship/lohukivid, making viking raids in longships etc.

In a way if you compare the Finnish and Estonian cultures before they were incorporated by the Swedes/Danes(only for Estonia), then Estonians, especially Western-Estonians resembled other Scandinavians quite a lot.
Well, stone worship/lohukivid isn´t the only indicator of similarity/non-similarity.
You cherrypick only those moments from history and culture what show some similarity with Scandinavians and forget everything else.In the reality there are many similarities between Estonians and Germans, Balts, Russians and many others.

Even the flag of the south-Estonian "capital" where I live looks very similar to Polish flag.It is not a coincidence.The flag of the City of Tartu was granted to the city by king Stephan Bathory of Poland (with the privilege of May 9, 1584).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Tartu_flag.svg/500px-Tartu_flag.svg.png


In the reality our small Estonian culture is in fact an amalgam of different influences and cultures, because we have been on the crossroad of history and cultures.


If Finnish culture is Nordic, then Estonian culture is even more Nordic.
Even Finnish culture is not totally nordic.Many or even most Scandinavians don´t consider Finland nordic.
And why are you talking so much about Finland.Has the fact that Finland´s nordicness/non-nordicness any influence to Estonia´s nordicness/non-nordicness?



Your point is that Nordic = Swedish influence, that is false.
That is not false. Nordic culture=North-Germanic aka Scandinavian culture.
I think you are a person who for some reason admires Swedes very much and you emphasize this nordic stuff so much because you want to promote Estonia´s closeness to Sweden.


They consider Finland, Nordic, but they do not consider them Scandinavian. There's a difference between the word "Scandinavian" and "Nordic". Finns aren't Scandinavian, but they are Nordic. You are always saying that Estonians aren't Nordic, because we aren't Scandinavian.
I have told you many times that Finland may be Nordic because it has had close contacts with Sweden. Estonia hasn´t had so close contacts with Sweden, Estonia´s history is much more "multiculti" compared to Finland.

[Foxy]

[FONT="Georgia"]


F.I I think that Lombardy in general could look at the Dutch as we both share a couple of things: flat land...



Italian geography:

http://www.coloridilaura.it/images/italia_fisica.jpg
http://www.coloridilaura.it/images/europa_fisica.jpg

and Lombardy is flat only in its southern part

http://www.lannaronca.it/Schede%20classe%20quarta/Lombardia.jpg

Most ecological countries :

http://oliveventures.com.sg/act/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/20081029-ecological-footprint-country.jpg

As you can see the Netherlands can't give us lessons of cleaness.

[The Lawspeaker]

Italian geography:

http://www.coloridilaura.it/images/italia_fisica.jpg
http://www.coloridilaura.it/images/europa_fisica.jpg

yes, very flat indeed :coffee:
Yes.. that's the rest of Italy. I am talking about Lombardy. Padania.
And I really recommend you to travel here and not just snuff it off because it is some foreigner seeing a flaw in your country.

[Äike]

No, no.The internet is the place there people like you dominate: certainly "Nordicists" are predominating among Estonian posters.I myself nearly don´t post elsewhere.

I'm not a Nordicist, I'm just an Estonian who doesn't think that he shares strong cultural ties with Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Slovaks. Nor do I think that I'm an Indo-European Balt.



Well, stone worship/lohukivid isn´t the only indicator of similarity/non-similarity.
You cherrypick only those moments from history and culture what show some similarity with Scandinavians and forget everything else.In the reality there are many similarities between Estonians and Germans, Balts, Russians and many others.

I do not cherry pick. I recently did read a book about history. For instance, it was mentioned that Estonians had strong ties with Central-Swedes, Gotlanders and SW-Finns in the 2nd half of the bronze age. Russians and Balts weren't mentioned, because Russians hadn't arrived to our borders yet and we had Livonians south of us, not Balts.


Even the flag of the south-Estonian "capital" where I live looks very similar to Polish flag.It is not a coincidence.The flag of the City of Tartu was granted to the city by king Stephan Bathory of Poland (with the privilege of May 9, 1584).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Tartu_flag.svg/500px-Tartu_flag.svg.png

Tartu was once ruled by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, nothing new here.

At the same time Tallinn got its name from "Danish town".



In the reality our small Estonian culture is in fact an amalgam of different influences and cultures, because we have been on the crossroad of history and cultures.

My point is, when looking at the "Baltic(Latvians have Finnic influence, but Estonians do not have Baltic influences. Expanding Baltic influence = Estonians adopting a Baltic language, thus Northern-Latvians are quite Estonian from a genetical viewpoint), Slavic(lol wut?), Germanic, Finnish, Scandinavian" influences, then the Estonian culture still has remained Northern-European as it has been for the last 11 000 years.

Even Finnish culture is not totally nordic.Many or even most Scandinavians don´t consider Finland nordic.


And why are you talking so much about Finland.Has the fact that Finland´s nordicness/non-nordicness any influence to Estonia´s nordicness/non-nordicness?

That is not false. Nordic culture=North-Germanic aka Scandinavian culture.
I think you are a person who for some reason admires Swedes very much and you emphasize this nordic stuff so much because you want to promote Estonia´s closeness to Sweden.

I have told you many times that Finland may be Nordic because it has had close contacts with Sweden. Estonia hasn´t had so close contacts with Sweden, Estonia´s history is much more "multiculti" compared to Finland.

You may continue living in your paranoid fantasy world.

[Foxy]

Yes.. that's the rest of Italy. I am talking about Lombardy. Padania.
And I really recommend you to travel here and not just snuff it off because it is some foreigner seeing a flaw in your country.

I have finished to publish the whole post, look up.
You can criticize Italy, but damn, you yesterday wrote that Italy is after a while flat like if it was a fault. Nobody obligated you to go to the Padanian region. And I have studied Ambiental Right and can assure that Italy is investing in clean energies. The ambientalism is at the basis of our not-nuclear energetic policy.
Then what else do you want to know? Why Milan is dirty? In which part of Milan have you been? Industrial city are always dirty, but I have been to Milan and the centre seemed to me clean. If you said Neaples is dirty or Palermo I would have agreed, but Milan...

[The Lawspeaker]

I have finished to publish the whole post, look up.
You can criticize Italy, but damn, you yesterday wrote that Italy is after a while flat like if it was a fault. Nobody obligated you to go to the Padanian region. And I have studied Ambiental Right and can assure that Italy is investing in clean energies. The ambientalism is at the basis of our not-nuclear energetic policy.
Then what else do you want to know? Why Milan is dirty? In which part of Milan have you been? Industrial city are always dirty, but I have been to Milan and the centre seemed to me clean. If you said Neaples is dirty or Palermo I would have agreed, but Milan...
Very well. I travelled through the Padanian region in order to get to Tuscany as it would be rather difficult to get there when you're not flying if you don't go via Padania ;)

Second. You go all defensive and explosive on me but do understand that at least in this country I can drink water from a tap (I couldn't while being in Italy - I had to buy water in a shop !) and we don't dump nuclear stuff in ships and ship them to sink them off into the North Sea (what one company did in Ivory Coast was a once in a lifetime event) and until Balkenende came along we had regularly updated Spatial Planning Acts so the countryside didn't become a mess.. :rolleyes::thumb001:

[W. R.]

Love the posts about Italy. Moar!

[Foxy]

Very well. I travelled through the Padanian region in order to get to Tuscany as it would be rather difficult to get there when you're not flying if you don't go via Padania ;)

Second. You go all defensive and explosive on me but do understand that at least in this country I can drink water from a tap (I couldn't while being in Italy - I had to buy water in a shop !) and we don't dump nuclear stuff in ships and ship them to sink them off into the North Sea (what one company did in Ivory Coast was a once in a lifetime event) and until Balkenende came along we had regularly updated Spatial Planning Acts so the countryside didn't become a mess.. :rolleyes::thumb001:

I have always drunk water from the tap of my house. I think you were just paranoic if you went to buy water in the shops, also becouse the water that you buy in shops is the same that goes in your house. Not only, there are some areas where the water that comes out of the tap is even fizzy...

[The Lawspeaker]

I have always drunk water from the tap of my house. I think you were just paranoic if you went to buy water in the shops, also becouse the water that you buy in shops is the same that goes in your house. Not only, there are some areas where the water that comes out of the tap is even fizzy...
Nope. We were told by our guides not to drink water from the tap as it wasn't clean so I followed up the instruction. We were in Tuscany btw. Cecina Mare. So maybe it's a local thing.

[San Galgano]

Should they perhaps all adopt that Flight Forum-model and adopt it to suit Italian standards followed by a genuine spatial-planning master plan of the entire region ?


I think that it's basically economic growth gone out of control with no all-round master-plan to guide development and without guidance for updates of the urban plans and the transportation network - much less environmental control.

Sometimes maniacal maintenance and spatial planning pays off.




It's just that we have to think about a slightly bigger scale of operating. I wonder whether the transport network around Milan and inside the city is up to par ? But then again: Italy doesn't really have a history regarding spatial planning so they could learn a bit from their neighbours. F.I I think that Lombardy in general could look at the Dutch as we both share a couple of things: flat land, industrialisation on a massive scale, high HDI and relative overpopulation. Basically it would be a sound idea for Italy to come up with the idea of focussing on Lombardy and it's modernisation in the same way as we do here in the Randstad. Southern Italy is o.k.. and so is Groningen and Limburg but that's not where the people live and work. So there should be a consistent master-plan aiming at updating all the areas and clustering sustainable economic growth on a case to case basis.







Exactly. In that respect you have the apparent over-centralization of Milan coupled with and a transport network that maybe there but that can't really hold it (Milan needs at least 8 lane motorways - 8 lanes both ways, I haven't seen those there) - they may have the subway's but apparently not on a big enough scale ? What they could do is open up additional commercial zones around motorways and above motorways so people that turn off at offramps get straight to their office or can take the subway/train/tram/bus to their perceived destination..


Same in Eindhoven but the hell starts for people that need to pass through so one could also make another by-pass around Milan thus avoiding the city altogether and using the present bypass as a kind of urban motorway from one industrial zone to the next. Call it your Essingeleden or Boulevard Périphérique.[/FONT]


Time to cluster and anticipate on a slightly bigger scale then. :) This really sounds like the problems we have in the Randstad here - just slightly more problematic because the transport network is not up to par..


Economic growth is linked to inabhitants growth and the problems Milan has are the same of many other big industrial cities. When a city is alive it always need new transport networks, infrastructures etc. at least you don't have to deal with a city limited to only financial bureaus placed in the center of the city.
Milan is an open yard just like
London(which it hasn't either an industrial outskirt that create mess), Paris the same, Madrid, Hamburg etc.
Anyway I have never heard people complaining that much about the infrastructure of Milan and i have been there with several foreigners too.
If you want to compare Milan you should do with a bigger city like Paris or London, you really can't compare Milan with Switzerland or Luxembourg.
I have heard many more people complaining about Paris than Milan in the years so we are not so bad.

Then Italy has not only Lombardy but also Piedmont, Liguria, Veneto and Emilia Romagna in the core of the richest places in Europe, and any of these places have any problems regarding infracstructure or space planning, transportation etc, because they have all medium to little cities.
Lombardy though has got Milan with all the issues that a big city-not only in Italy-creates.

[Foxy]

Nope. We were told by our guides not to drink water from the tap as it wasn't clean so I followed up the instruction. We were in Tuscany btw. Cecina Mare. So maybe it's a local thing.

Bah, Abruzzo is for 90% a natural park. We had a problem with an acqueduct and since that some people preferred to go to buy bottles, but the acqueduct which arrived to my house is clean. Not only, it seems that the story of the dirty acqueduct is for the truth a "fake" invented by firms who sell water in bottles. I visited with school Acquedotto del Verde in Fara San Martino (ps., just for curiosity FARA is a Germanic toponimus) and the village is very clean and the water is one of the purest of Europe, indeed the same water is used by the local firm which produces pasta, and it makes a great publicity about the fact that they use very pure water.

This is Fara San Martino water:
http://www.culturaitalia.beniculturali.it/pico/system/galleries/pics/alkacon-documentation/sorgenti_del_fiume_vecchio.JPG
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/228606745_d834380488_m.jpg

[esaima]

[QUOTE]I'm not a Nordicist, To be exact, I didn´d say Nordicist, I said "Nordicist".
I call "Nordicists" a person who wants to emphasize his closeness to Nordic countries.

I'm just an Estonian who doesn't think that he shares strong cultural ties with Russians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Slovaks. Nor do I think that I'm an Indo-European Balt.
We may share even some common ties even with Slovaks: what about centuries long German influences, what about soviet period.As a student I worked together with Slovaks in Sweden.They weren´t exotic to me, I wasn´t exotic to them.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png/400px-Grossgliederung_Europas.png


I do not cherry pick. I recently did read a book about history. For instance, it was mentioned that Estonians had strong ties with Central-Swedes, Gotlanders and SW-Finns in the 2nd half of the bronze age. Russians and Balts weren't mentioned, because Russians hadn't arrived to our borders yet and we had Livonians south of us, not Balts.
It was long time ago.Recent contacts are more important.


At the same time Tallinn got its name from "Danish town".
Yes, according to most commong legend.But as you know, the town was named after the Danes occupied it in 1219. But Estonia lost it´s independence because of Danish (and German) occupation.This name resembles me Danish occupation.



Estonians do not have Baltic influences.
It is not true.Estonians do have Baltic influences.Not talking about Corded ware culture.


Estonian culture still has remained Northern-European as it has been for the last 11 000 years.
dammit, how to you know what was 11000 years ago??It sounds the same like to say that today´s Tansanian culture is as Tansanian as it has been for the last 50 000 years.

[San Galgano]

Nope. We were told by our guides not to drink water from the tap as it wasn't clean so I followed up the instruction. We were in Tuscany btw. Cecina Mare. So maybe it's a local thing.

That was because Cecina is close to underground little vulcans known as "Soffioni Di Larderello" who sometimes release Boron.

I think that was fair by people of Tuscany. God only knows how many times i have drunk poisoned water abroad and nobody told me.

[Eldritch]

I'm just after a definition of Nordic?

You'll see different competing definitions flying around these forums like spermatozoa on a bukkage film set. Linguistic, racial, geographic, cultural, political, etc ad nauseam ones.

Even if you by some miracle could get people to agree on a single definition for five minutes, someone is certain to come along with some new agenda and start the whole mess all over again. :speechless-smiley-0

[The Lawspeaker]

That was because Cecina is close to underground little vulcans known as "Soffioni Di Larderello" who sometimes release Boron.

I think that was fair by people of Tuscany. God only knows how many times i have drunk poisoned water abroad and nobody told me.
They didn't tell me exactly what was in it but just that it wasn't "clean". Is there a way in which they can make sure that Boron can no longer seep into the water supply?

Well. You wouldn't have that problem here I think :) We have the best tap water in Europe (or so is claimed) although I believe that we should take a long look at reverse osmosis rather then the (excellent) filtration systems we use today. Another problem here is that we have chalk in the water.
And I wonder whether reverse osmosis can solve that.

[Foxy]

They didn't tell me exactly what was in it but just that it wasn't "clean". Is there a way in which they can make sure that Boron can no longer seep into the water supply?

Well. You wouldn't have that problem here I think :) We have the best tap water in Europe (or so is claimed) although I believe that we should take a long look at reverse osmosis rather then the (excellent) filtration systems we use today. Another problem here is that we have chalk in the water.
And I wonder whether reverse osmosis can solve that.

It is not a question of tap. Some regions of Italy have a strong vulcanism. Before I told you that in some areas of Italy the water which goes out of taps is fizzy. It is true, becouse in those areas the vulcanic activity releases carbonic anidrite in the water. Also in my region there are underground activities, which are used to feed the two thermal systems of the region (Popoli and Caramanico). Tuscany, Latium and Campania have the same situation. But the water we send to houses is not taken from the thermal springs. But my region can take water everywhere becouse we have a surplus of it. Not only, being my region for the most montanious and few populated, we have water of hight quote which is the best.

[The Lawspeaker]

It is not a question of tap. Some regions of Italy have a strong vulcanism. Before I told you that in some areas of Italy the water which goes out of taps is fizzy. It is true, becouse in those areas the vulcanic activity releases carbonic anidrite in the water. Also in my region there are underground activities, which are used to feed the two thermal systems of the region (Popoli and Caramanico). Tuscany, Latium and Campania have the same situation. But the water we send to houses is not taken from the thermal springs. But my region can take water everywhere becouse we have a surplus of it. Not only, being my region for the most montanious and few populated, we have water of hight quote which is the best.
Maybe it's a crazy idea but what if Italy would take a drastic measure and purify and desalinate sea water ? Here reverse osmosis could be done as the filters block salts, chemical polution and bacteria
Would that be a way to solve the tap water problem ? Albeit an expensive one.

[San Galgano]

They didn't tell me exactly what was in it but just that it wasn't "clean". Is there a way in which they can make sure that Boron can no longer seep into the water Well. You wouldn't have that problem here I think :) We have the best tap water in Europe (or so is claimed) although I believe that we should take a long look at reverse osmosis rather then the (excellent) filtration systems we use today. Another problem here is that we have chalk in the water.
And I wonder whether reverse osmosis can solve that.

lol
Yes, if dutch tell us how to control vulcans.

[Foxy]

Maybe it's a crazy idea but what if Italy would take a drastic measure and purify and desalinate sea water ? Here reverse osmosis could be done as the filters block salts, chemical polution and bacteria
Would that be a way to solve the tap water problem ? Albeit an expensive one.

Now you ask me too much. I am not a biologist :D It would be wonderful if we could obtain drinkable water from the sea, but I don't think it is possible.
However I'd like to ask you to make questions before accusing us to have dirty water, not becouse I want to be so pedantic, only becouse your accuse made me feel like a thirdworldist. It is pretty strong to accuse a country to be dirty, don't you think? :)

[The Lawspeaker]

lol
Yes, if dutch tell us how to control vulcans.
:D Ah well. Well. So that's why I thought: take a detour or is it also found in rich quantities in the Med ?



Now you ask me too much. I am not a biologist :D It would be wonderful if we could obtain drinkable water from the sea, but I don't think it is possible.
However I'd like to ask you to make questions before accusing us to have dirty water, not becouse I want to be so pedantic, only becouse your accuse made me feel like a thirdworldist. It is pretty strong to accuse a country to be dirty, don't you think? :)
It's already being done in several countries actually and I think in Italy too. But reverse osmoses as a technology is being used in Germany and Switzerland and some more countries so maybe .. it could benefit the Italians too. Or us for that matter ;) "Hard water" (chalk) is very very bad for ones washing machine.. ask a great number of Dutch people :P

It wasn't meant to be pedantic btw although I was truly shocked by the fact that I couldn't drink water ("I am still in Europe, in the same Union as we are.. and I can't drink water from a tap !" <--- yes I was amazed and appalled). Well.. you have to understand that Italy has this Roman legacy and the fact that we are in Europe and now seeing a country that employs cheap and horrific modern architecture, raw concrete on motorway boarders (without finesses -and here in the Netherlands they even design the sides of the road !) and where I couldn't drink water from the tap even if it has been in the EU for many, many years and with this strong Roman legacy. And when you later hear about nuclear stuff in ships off Southern Italy. What should this northerner think ? ;)

I must say.. I was disappointed in that respect. I know that the Mafia, Berlusconi and his cronies, the corruption in general and the countless ancient treasures put a heavy financial burden on your country but...

What a lot of countries have is this massive rim of concrete and ugliness that grew out of the World War and the reconstruction. There was plenty of reconstruction going on but the quality sucked because they used Brutalism and in Italy (and several more countries) it caused even more damage to the (urban) landscape because of the lack of urban planning which we were pretty fortunate to have here. Although we too have our nasty places: Hoog Catherijne in Utrecht, Rotterdam, Eindhoven, Tilburg - but overtime they started to tear down or redevelop the mess. I haven't seen such movements in Italy yet.

[Foxy]

:D Ah well. Well. So that's why I thought: take a detour or is it also found in rich quantities in the Med ?



It's already being done in several countries actually and I think in Italy too. But reverse osmoses as a technology is being used in Germany and Switzerland and some more countries so maybe .. it could benefit the Italians too. Or us for that matter ;) "Hard water" (chalk) is very very bad for ones washing machine.. ask a great number of Dutch people :P

It wasn't meant to be pedantic btw although I was truly shocked by the fact that I couldn't drink water ("I am still in Europe, in the same Union as we are.. and I can't drink water from a tap !" <--- yes I was amazed and appalled). Well.. you have to understand that Italy has this Roman legacy and the fact that we are in Europe and now seeing a country that employs cheap and horrific modern architecture, raw concrete on motorway boarders (without finesses -and here in the Netherlands they even design the sides of the road !) and where I couldn't drink water from the tap even if it has been in the EU for many, many years and with this strong Roman legacy. And when you later hear about nuclear stuff in ships off Southern Italy. What should this northerner think ? ;)

I must say.. I was disappointed in that respect. I know that the Mafia, Berlusconi and his cronies, the corruption in general and the countless ancient treasures put a heavy financial burden on your country but...

What a lot of countries have is this massive rim of concrete and ugliness that grew out of the World War and the reconstruction. There was plenty of reconstruction going on but the quality sucked because they used Brutalism and in Italy (and several more countries) it caused even more damage to the (urban) landscape because of the lack of urban planning which we were pretty fortunate to have here. Although we too have our nasty places: Hoog Catherijne in Utrecht, Rotterdam, Eindhoven, Tilburg - but overtime they started to tear down or redevelop the mess. I haven't seen such movements in Italy yet.


I have seen raw concrete only in Northern Italy and I dunno why... do you mean red concrete? I dunno if they choose it for estethic reasons. In the centre and it the South concrete is black.
This is A25, the speedroad which connects Pescara to Rome and passes through the highest point of the appennines. In my opinion is the most beautiful speedroad of Italy.
The fact the the two roads are not at the same livel is due to the fact that that trait of road is made on the side of a mountain:

vFH_YRfehfA

And this is the A14 (Adriatic), Ancona - Rimini trait, boring like hell:
EY_etzg-gcY

I see nothing strange in it.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have seen raw concrete only in Northern Italy and I dunno why... do you mean red concrete? I dunno if they choose it for estethic reasons. In the centre and it the South concrete is black.
This is A25, the speedroad which connects Pescara to Rome and passes through the highest point of the appennines. In my opinion is the most beautiful speedroad of Italy.
The fact the the two roads are not at the same livel is due to the fact that that trait of road is made on the side of a mountain:

vFH_YRfehfA

And this is the A14 (Adriatic), Ancona - Rimini trait, boring like hell:
EY_etzg-gcY

I see nothing strange in it.
Look. I'll post a comparison to a Dutch motorway (slightly older though - the A2)

AD6Et3ZZ90s

1T_wHor0DC8
(re-made around Eindhoven)

Italian motorways - however will designed, give me the impression that they haven't really been finished. Nothing has been done about the berm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berm) or the toll stations - they give me the impression that the toll stations were build quickly and with the intention of making a quick buck. Compare it to let's say this toll station (brand new though) on Milau Bridge (France):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/2005_MillauPéage0416.JPG

But that's mainly perhaps the roads in Northern Italy and it was years ago so maybe things changed. The A25 is definitely beautifully designed and leads through landscapes that we don't have here.

[Turkophagos]

Finnic, Fins and Estonians, is a european group of its own. However, the first are heavily influenced from the nordic culture while the latter from the baltic one.

End of story.

[San Galgano]

:D Ah well. Well. So that's why I thought: take a detour or is it also found in rich quantities in the Med ?



It's already being done in several countries actually and I think in Italy too. But reverse osmoses as a technology is being used in Germany and Switzerland and some more countries so maybe .. it could benefit the Italians too. Or us for that matter ;) "Hard water" (chalk) is very very bad for ones washing machine.. ask a great number of Dutch people :P

It wasn't meant to be pedantic btw although I was truly shocked by the fact that I couldn't drink water ("I am still in Europe, in the same Union as we are.. and I can't drink water from a tap !" <--- yes I was amazed and appalled). Well.. you have to understand that Italy has this Roman legacy and the fact that we are in Europe and now seeing a country that employs cheap and horrific modern architecture, raw concrete on motorway boarders (without finesses -and here in the Netherlands they even design the sides of the road !) and where I couldn't drink water from the tap even if it has been in the EU for many, many years and with this strong Roman legacy. And when you later hear about nuclear stuff in ships off Southern Italy. What should this northerner think ? ;)

I must say.. I was disappointed in that respect. I know that the Mafia, Berlusconi and his cronies, the corruption in general and the countless ancient treasures put a heavy financial burden on your country but...

What a lot of countries have is this massive rim of concrete and ugliness that grew out of the World War and the reconstruction. There was plenty of reconstruction going on but the quality sucked because they used Brutalism and in Italy (and several more countries) it caused even more damage to the (urban) landscape because of the lack of urban planning which we were pretty fortunate to have here. Although we too have our nasty places: Hoog Catherijne in Utrecht, Rotterdam, Eindhoven, Tilburg - but overtime they started to tear down or redevelop the mess. I haven't seen such movements in Italy yet.

LOL
Reverse osmosis is in Italy too, i don't think it's a big deal. Every new apartament blok has it.
I don't know what happened to you when in Tuscany(i drink water from the tap everyday) but Tuscany is well advanced in many fields , from Hospitals, to ambient maintenance, alternative energy, eco-system . So something must be happened, but i can see honesty they warned you since germans countries let us eat sick cows for years before they told us we were at risk.
So find something else to blame Tuscany and its millenary history. Million tourists visit Tuscany every year and nobody complained, while i could complain a lot about Netherlands since a group of ducth stabbed me in a leg in Amsterdam to steal my moneys and when i went to Hospital the doctor needed to search over internet for the antibiotics cause he didn't know which were the ones that could fit better the purpose.
What should a southern think when you are so good at space planning and road sides design(have you got a school for combing dolls too?) but not so good in medicine?
I can't see too cheap and horrific architecture in Italy especially in North and central Italy since Italy is well knows for style and design(made in Italy is a must not made in Holland)and if we have cheap architecture you have to blame architects like Renzo Piano, who built you horryfic edifices in Amsterdam and in Rotterdam too. Furthermore due to our great history we can't build as we would like and old edifices were built after the war when people didn't care at all about underground findings. You have to understand that during the work for modernization of railway between Rome and Naples have been found archelogical sites every 30 km. I don't think of course you have this issues.



As for mafia and corruption,is bottom line, i have to say also boorish from you. The easiest thing to say i would add but that's probably because you have not a great roman legacy so originality is not your best talent.

Corruption is a problem that is present in many countries and of course in Italy too it should be stupid to hide this.
Mafia is pretty much a southern Italian thing and the average central-north italian can't do nothing to stop this, just like you guys can't do nothing against the dutch who allegedly created a pedophile party.


Anyway i like Netherlands, and i found it beautiful when i have been there even if had to go around with my bleeding leg.

[Foxy]

Look. I'll post a comparison to a Dutch motorway (slightly older though - the A2)

AD6Et3ZZ90s

1T_wHor0DC8
(re-made around Eindhoven)

Italian motorways - however will designed, give me the impression that they haven't really been finished. Nothing has been done about the berm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berm) or the toll stations - they give me the impression that the toll stations were build quickly and with the intention of making a quick buck. Compare it to let's say this toll station (brand new though) on Milau Bridge (France):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/2005_MillauPéage0416.JPG

But that's mainly perhaps the roads in Northern Italy and it was years ago so maybe things changed. The A25 is definitely beautifully designed and leads through landscapes that we don't have here.

Motorways like these exist in Emilia-Romagna... I posted two smaller roads, not the main roads of Italy.

ltpPUVjjJiw

Give up, we have everything in Italy, this is why we dispute each others :D

For the truth the one I posted hands down Eindhoven :D

[San Galgano]

Motorways like these exist in Emilia-Romagna... I posted two smaller roads, not the main roads of Italy.

ltpPUVjjJiw

Give up, we have everything in Italy, this is why we dispute each others :D

For the truth the one I posted hands down Eindhoven :D


Hey, they have schools teaching road sides design be careful, apart that i can't see so much differences with Italian highways.

You have to know that they give more than 1\3 of financing to Eindhoven so of course they have everything new there. The rest of Netherlands is not perfect like Eindhoven that's why we have to see Eindhoven again and again.:D

[Äike]

To be exact, I didn´d say Nordicist, I said "Nordicist".
I call "Nordicists" a person who wants to emphasize his closeness to Nordic countries.

We may share even some common ties even with Slovaks: what about centuries long German influences, what about soviet period.As a student I worked together with Slovaks in Sweden.They weren´t exotic to me, I wasn´t exotic to them.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png/400px-Grossgliederung_Europas.png


It was long time ago.Recent contacts are more important.


Yes, according to most commong legend.But as you know, the town was named after the Danes occupied it in 1219. But Estonia lost it´s independence because of Danish (and German) occupation.This name resembles me Danish occupation.



It is not true.Estonians do have Baltic influences.Not talking about Corded ware culture.


dammit, how to you know what was 11000 years ago??It sounds the same like to say that today´s Tansanian culture is as Tansanian as it has been for the last 50 000 years.

If you wouldn't be trolling, then a troll wouldn't be thanking your post. It is pointless to argue with you, you stopped being serious quite a while ago.

Emphasizing Estonian culture makes me a Nordicist? You are becoming too transparent, try harder. I couldn't tell if you are trolling or not, a month ago. Now it's quite obvious.



Finnic, Fins and Estonians, is a european group of its own. However, the first are heavily influenced from the nordic culture while the latter from the baltic one.

End of story.

What heavy influences from the Baltic culture? Don't throw around sentences which you cannot prove as they're not true. Tell me about those heavy influences and we can have an interesting discussion. There were other Finnic people south of us for a very large period of time, Balts have came to our border only in the last 900 years. The Livonians used to separate us and then Balts, but the Balts assimilated them, that's why most of them look so Northern-European.

[esaima]

esäimä;Yes, according to most commong legend.But as you know, the town was named after the Danes occupied it in 1219. But Estonia lost it´s independence because of Danish (and German) occupation.This name resembles me Danish occupation.


Karl; If you wouldn't be trolling, then a troll wouldn't be thanking your post.

You are calling me troll and saying I am not serious because I said that Danes occupied Estonia in 13th century:confused:

[Motörhead Remember Me]

But how Estonia manages to keep the corruption so low? I mean with the comparatively high percentage of non-Estonian residents? I would expect them to spoil the whole statistics. :chin:
They DO.

The problems with crime, Hiv, prostitution, drugs, corruption, street muggings, inefficiency, inhosptitability etc in Estonia can without doubt be ascribed this non-Estonian resident base.

[Jaska]

then the Estonian culture still has remained Northern-European as it has been for the last 11 000 years.
Sorry, but how can you call it Estonian? With the same criteria, Spanish culture has been there for over 40 000 years. Somali culture has been there for 100 000 years.

There is no point to project the modern ethnicities so far back in time.

[Ibericus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Grossgliederung_Europas.png/400px-Grossgliederung_Europas.pnglol, this map always cracks me up. The left part of the border between France and Spain is very strange, it goes up all of a sudden mysteriously...

[Loddfafner]

I see endless debates around this site over whether Estonia is Nordic or East European. I try to ignore them but them realized that I have a very practical need to know the answer: in which album should I store my Estonian stamps? I only have a few so I can't give them one on their own. If I separate them from the other Baltics, the answer is simply to stick them in the corner of my Finnish pages along with the Aalands, and put the whole bunch into my Scandinavia, Ireland, and Benelux album.

If I include them with the rest of the Baltics, the problem is not so simple. I could equally include them in the ex-Soviet or ex-German books, as most of my stamps from that area were actually produced under one or the other's occupations. Some French stamps overprinted "Memel" don't seem to justify throwing the whole thing into the album of French side projects.

Just an update. I never found a satisfactory solution for my Estonian and Baltic stamps, but for now, I have set up a notebook binder full of loose stock pages that allows for some flexibility. The overall theme is that liminal zone between Germany and Russia. The theme is not consistent and is guided really by what I need space for covers and sheets, and for areas I am currently working hardest to collect. In order:

Estonia (German occupation)
Estonia now
Latvia - independent form the 1920s; Russian occupation; current.
Lithuania - interwar; current.
Central Lithuania (Litwa Srodkowa)
Memel
Ostland (German occupation)
Generalgouvernement (German-occupied Poland)
Allenstein/Olsztyn (post WW1 fragment)
Marienwerder
Danzig Free State
Upper Silesia
Eastern Silesia
Czechoslovakia/Boehm und Mahren/Czech Rep./Slovakia
Ottoman occupied Bosnia
Hapsburg Bosnia
Post WW1 Croatia and Slovenia
Kingdom of Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes
Jugoslavia
German occupied Serbia, Montenegro, and Croatia
Partisan issues from Croatia and Slovenia
Commie Jugoslavia
Muslim Bosnia
Croat Bosnia
Serbian Bosnia
Krajina
Serbia
Kosovo
Macedonia
Croatia
Slovenia

I will probably eventually put my Polish and Hungarian stamps in this book but for now they are staying in my Russian album.

[Waidewut]

If you arguing my definition of short when talking about Latvia, then I'll point out that Livonia was more Estonian(it included Southern-Estonia) and Livonian than Latvian/Baltic/Latgal. Also, not all of the territory of Latvia was ruled by the Swedish Empire.

It's obvious Livonians were small minority in the part of Livonia, which is now a day Latvia. Swedish times in Vidzeme have a place in the Latvian ethnic memory as "The light Swedish time", so don't disregard this period.


Lithuania was never part of the Swedish Empire and Latvia was part of it only for a short period of time. Neither of those countries also had Danish rule. While our capital is literally called "Danish town"/"Taani linn = Tallinn".

I have said this before and I say this again, looking at this area as a single entity is a bad idea.

There's a reason why Estonians are Lutheran and Lithuanians are Catholic. Because we weren't ruled by the same factions.

And as of Denmark- North Courland was part of it after the Livonian war, Piltene district was it's name.
You forgot the fact Grobin was the biggest Scandinavian settlement on the Eastern shore of the Baltic sea, during the viking ages.

[AinoMaria]

All your countries' names end in -ia in the English language.



Let's be honest...do you think many Western Europeans consider Estonians to be Western Europeans with them? And what cultural ties would Estonians share with the Scandinavians and Irish? :confused:

"scandinavia" ends with "-ia" too :3 :>

[AinoMaria]

But

"Finland, like Sweden and Norway, is a relatively interventionist welfare 'nanny' state. This means that we have virtually no poverty, but we pay very high taxes and have to put up with many petty restrictions which are 'good' for us but can be a pain in the neck, there are strict laws governing business hours, and cigarettes and automobiles have almost confiscatory taxes on them.

Estonia has constructed a 'leaner, meaner' state : a flat tax rate, more individual freedom to decide how to be successful (or fail), fewer petty restrictions - all alcoholic beverages can be sold around the clock any day of the week - and there is no special tax on cars. The good side is that ambitious people in Estonia have prospered markedly during the past nine years, the down side is that the weak, the less ambitious, those that plan their lives stupidly or impractically (from the standpoint of making money) have fallen by the wayside.

Many Finns expected Estonia to build a Social-Democratic style welfare state, and were surprised and to some degree miffed that Estonia, chose to model itself after America rather than after Finland. The good side of this is that Helsinki and Tallinn, close as they are, have very different atmospheres and are thus quite fascinating for people who know one but not the other, or who are familiar with both.

system is different than one of scandinavians, but im not sure if its different from balts too.

[member]

"scandinavia" ends with "-ia" too :3 :>

http://www.italianrealestateassist.com/images/Italy_Regions.JPG

-ia is found in other languages too but it may be influence of Latin, that some countries have ia ending in English.

[Mordid]

w h e r e ' s k a r l w h e n w e n e e d h i m ?

[Talvi]

where's karl when we need him?

He is unable to access the site, so he hasnt been on for a while now.

[Äike]

w h e r e ' s k a r l w h e n w e n e e d h i m ?

Karl is IP-bänned from TA.

This post is made from Haapsalu, Läänemaa. I can access TA without any problems from all other places except my home.

[Dilberth]

Karl is IP-bänned from TA.

This post is made from Haapsalu, Läänemaa. I can access TA without any problems from all other places except my home.

Proxy?

[Äike]

Proxy?

That's too much of an hassle.