View Full Version : Are Estonians, Balts/Baltic people?
Are Estonians, Balts/Baltic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts)?
;)
Ilya.S
09-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Of course they aren't, Estonians are Finnic...
esaima
09-29-2010, 02:06 PM
The poll is somewhat demagogic.
Estonians aren´t Balts but they are Baltic.
Loddfafner
09-29-2010, 02:45 PM
Yes I do consider Estonians and Balts to be people.
The Ripper
09-29-2010, 03:01 PM
Your fixation with Nordic is strange. Even when people agree, that Estonians belong to a Northern European cultural sphere along with the Nordic and Northern Lutheran countries, you must insist that Estonia is Nordic, which it isn't according to the definition of Nordic. As if the terminology made a huge difference in the matter of Estonian identity, when it really is a question of semantics.
Eldritch
09-29-2010, 03:12 PM
Well, that's not really a matter of opinion or something that can be settled with a poll, is it?
And I'm in favour of letting people self-identify as whatever the hell they want, anyway.
The poll is somewhat demagogic.
Estonians aren´t Balts but they are Baltic.
It isn't demagogic, I'm purely talking about the linguistic/cultural grouping. Balts and Baltic people are synonyms, I even inserted an URL into my original post.
But as you're an Estonian in denial/"Baltic member", you probably voted yes.
Edit: I'm amazed at the fact that at the current rate, the majority of people think I'm an Indo-European Balt, while in reality I do not speak a word of Latvian nor have I ever seen Lithuanians nor heard Lithuanian being spoken.
How can I be related to people, with who I do not have any connections with?
Your fixation with Nordic is strange. Even when people agree, that Estonians belong to a Northern European cultural sphere along with the Nordic and Northern Lutheran countries, you must insist that Estonia is Nordic, which it isn't according to the definition of Nordic. As if the terminology made a huge difference in the matter of Estonian identity, when it really is a question of semantics.
Well, Estonians are Nordic, but Estonia is still called a Baltic country in the same sense as Finland was called Baltic in the 1920's. Thus you can say that Estonia isn't Nordic from a geopolitical sense. You focus on geopolitics, while I focus on culture, history and mentality. If looking at Estonia from a cultural aspect, then Estonia is Nordic because the population is Nordic. If looking at Estonia from a geopolitical aspect, then Estonia is grouped together with the Baltic nations, although Estonians do not share cultural ties/a common mentality with the Balts.
About your Lutheran topic... As far as I know, the only majority Lutheran countries are all Nordic(if including Estonia). In Germany and Latvia, the Catholics are more numerous.
It's an interesting question. I think it depends on your definition of "Balts". If Balts refer to the Indo-European language group and peoples, then it's accepted that Estonians are not part of that group (instead, part of the wider Finno-Ugric group). However, I think most people nowadays refer to "Baltic" as principally Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - in terms of commonality of geography, intertwined history and culture.
A point of interest:
Aesti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti) (sounds familiar?)
... the Aestii are generally considered the ancestors of the later Baltic peoples
But then:
It is speculated that name [Aesti] survived as specifically Estonians and is the origin of the modern national name of Estonia: Eesti in Estonian, Eistland in ancient Scandinavian sagas, and Estia, Hestia and Estonia in early Latin sources. Estonians, however, are not Balts.
:shrug:
However, if we take language as a definer of ethnic allegiance, Estonia is not Nordic either. Estonians are linguistically closer to several peoples who live in Russia close to the Urals, than to Swedes, Danes and Norwegians. It makes more sense to lump them in with Balts than with Nordics, purely for geographical reasons.
It's an interesting question. I think it depends on your definition of "Balts". If Balts refer to the Indo-European language group and peoples, then it's accepted that Estonians are not part of that group (instead, part of the wider Finno-Ugric group). However, I think most people nowadays refer to "Baltic" as principally Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - in terms of commonality of geography, intertwined history and culture.
The topic was about Estonians, not Estonia. No one refers to Estonians as Baltic people/Balts.
"Intertwined history and culture", like what?
A point of interest:
Aesti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti) (sounds familiar?)
I have read about this term. The modern Estonian may derive from it, but very probably Estonians were rather referred to as Fenni than Aesti.
But then:
:shrug:
However, if we take language as a definer of ethnic allegiance, Estonia is not Nordic either. Estonians are linguistically closer to several peoples who live in Russia close to the Urals, than to Swedes, Danes and Norwegians.
What about the Finns then? And linguistically the closest people(Livonians, Ingrians) to Estonians live on the shores of the Baltic sea.
Talking about my relation to distant Finno-Ugric peoples is the same as your relations with your Indo-European kin, the Gypsies.
I do not feel related to all Finno-Ugric people. I feel related with only a minority of them. Just like you do not feel related to all Indo-Europeans.
It makes more sense to lump them in with Balts than with Nordics, purely for geographical reasons.
Lumping Estonians together with Balts makes as much sense as grouping Afrikaners together with the Bantu people.
Megrez
09-29-2010, 07:50 PM
Your fixation with Nordic is strange. Even when people agree, that Estonians belong to a Northern European cultural sphere along with the Nordic and Northern Lutheran countries, you must insist that Estonia is Nordic, which it isn't according to the definition of Nordic. As if the terminology made a huge difference in the matter of Estonian identity, when it really is a question of semantics.
This (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=259772&postcount=268). :D
The topic was about Estonians, not Estonia.
I know. We all know. Estonia is nothing without its people anyway. When people write "Estonia" they are speaking of the people of Estonia - especially in this context. We're not exactly discussing topography and precipitation here.
Lumping Estonians together with Balts makes as much sense as grouping Afrikaners together with the Bantu people.
You can just as well say: "Lumping Estonians together with Scandinavians makes as much sense as grouping Afrikaners together with the Bantu people". Same argument.
Lithium
09-29-2010, 08:07 PM
For me the Estonians are Baltic people which are influenced and close to the Nordic peoples
I know. We all know. Estonia is nothing without its people anyway. When people write "Estonia" they are speaking of the people of Estonia - especially in this context. We're not exactly discussing topography and precipitation here.
Estonia is called a Baltic country, even by Estonians. But no one in Estonia considers himself to be a Balt. There's a difference.
You can just as well say: "Lumping Estonians together with Scandinavians makes as much sense as grouping Afrikaners together with the Bantu people". Same argument.
My point was, Afrikaners share ties with the Bantu people in the same way as Estonians share them with the Balts. We are geographically in the same area.
When talking about Scandinavians, then it isn't only geographic anymore. Similar burial customs during the bronze age, similar religious customs. People of Saaremaa screaming "Thor, help us!" when running into battle. Some Estonian week days named after Scandinavian mythology.
For me the Estonians are Baltic people which are influenced and close to the Nordic peoples
For me, Estonia is geopolitically a Baltic country, but Estonians aren't Baltic. Finland was a Baltic country in the 1920's and 1930's, but no one calls them Balts anymore.
Calling Estonians, Baltic, is purely political.
Estonia is called a Baltic country, even by Estonians. But no one in Estonia considers himself to be a Balt. There's a difference.
Estonians are Balts because Estonia is a Baltic country. Simple as that.
My point was, Afrikaners share ties with the Bantu people in the same way as Estonians share them with the Balts. We are geographically in the same area.
This is an exaggeration. Estonians have been in the Baltic region for thousands of years perhaps. Afrikaners only came to Africa after 1652. Their roots are in Europe. Estonian roots are not in Scandinavia. They're not Nordic.
When talking about Scandinavians, then it isn't only geographic anymore. Similar burial customs during the bronze age, similar religious customs. People of Saaremaa screaming "Thor, help us!" when running into battle. Some Estonian week days named after Scandinavian mythology.
You can find similarities between almost all European groupings like that. And differences too.
Calling Estonians, Baltic, is purely political.
Political in what sense? What would be the motivation?
Isn't it more reasonable to do as the Hungarians do: admit they're dissimilar to all their neighbours, and celebrate their uniqueness. After all, they're cousins of Estonians too ... closer to Estonians than Swedes are. You do not have to be lumped in with Swedes and Danes.
Estonians are Balts because Estonia is a Baltic country. Simple as that.
Estonians aren't Balts, because they differ from the real Balts, linguistically and culturally, simple as that.
This is an exaggeration. Estonians have been in the Baltic region for thousands of years perhaps. Afrikaners only came to Africa after 1652. Their roots are in Europe. Estonian roots are not in Scandinavia. They're not Nordic.
800 years ago, the people(Livonians were one of those people) south of Estonians still were mostly of Finnic heritage. The Balts are newcomers in my eyes.
Political in what sense? What would be the motivation?
Political in the sense that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania restored their independent countries in 1991, thus were lumped together into the same group.
For the same reason, Finland was a Baltic country during the first half of the 20th century. As Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania gained independence from the Russian empire.
There were 4 Baltic states, but in reality, only 2 of them had Balts living in them.
Isn't it more reasonable to do as the Hungarians do: admit they're dissimilar to all their neighbours, and celebrate their uniqueness. After all, they're cousins of Estonians too ... closer to Estonians than Swedes are. You do not have to be lumped in with Swedes and Danes.
I feel related to Hungarians as much as I feel related to Italians. By your logic, you should feel related to Gypsies, because you belong into the same language group with them.
Finno-Ugrics are as diverse as Indo-Europeans, we aren't the same people. Just like you are different from Persians, I am different from Hungarians and the Komi people.
One has to admire your insistence Karl.
/Loki out
esaima
09-29-2010, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE]Estonians aren't Balts, because they differ from the real Balts, culturally, simple as that.
Go to Latvia.What do you mean "differ culturally"?Every country differs culturally from an other country. Estonia differs from Sweden for instance. Cultural differences between Estonia and Latvia are smaller than between Estonia and Sweden, imo.
Btw, have you ever been to Latvia?
The Balts are newcomers in my eyes.
The Balts came to Baltic area about 800 years later than Finnics.It is not a big difference because it happened about 2200 BC.To call Balts newcomers is ridiculous.
I feel related to Hungarians as much as I feel related to Italians.
You are weird.Estonians consider linguistical relationship very important.Most of Estonians consider Hungarians their relatives.
Finno-Ugrics are as diverse as Indo-Europeans, we aren't the same people. Just like you are different from Persians, I am different from Hungarians and the Komi people.
Well, Finno-Ugrics are diverse, yes but they aren´t as different as Indo-Europeans.I have read that proto Indo-European language branched off c. 5000 years BC, proto-Uralic c. 4000-3500 years BC
not talking about proto-Finno-Ugric which diverged c.3000-2500 years BC into Ugric and Finno-Permic languages.
Even Estonians and Hungarians are not as different as Afrikaners and Persians not talking about Finnic Komis.
You are trying to distance yourself from your linguistical relatives.
Praamius
09-30-2010, 07:03 AM
How much more this topic can be discussed ? It's nr.1 topic on the Apricity.
It's obvious that Karl will never back-off until everyone agrees that Estonia is as Nordic as possible.
Black(Baltic/Balts) and white(Nordic) , Esotnia is grey.So why there is no 3rd option in poll ?
The Ripper
09-30-2010, 07:04 AM
How much more this topic can be discussed ? It's nr.1 topic on the Apricity.
It's obvious that Karl will never back-off until everyone agrees that Estonia is as Nordic as possible.
Black(Baltic/Balts) and white(Nordic) , Esonia is grey.So why there is no 3rd option in poll ?
Grey Power!
Go to Latvia.What do you mean "differ culturally"?Every country differs culturally from an other country. Estonia differs from Sweden for instance. Cultural differences between Estonia and Latvia are smaller than between Estonia and Sweden, imo.
This is why I think you're not being serious.
Btw, have you ever been to Latvia?
Yes I have... Have you ever been to Sweden and Finland?
The Balts came to Baltic area about 800 years later than Finnics.It is not a big difference because it happened about 2200 BC.To call Balts newcomers is ridiculous.
900 years ago, our neighbours to the south were still mostly Finnic people.
You are weird.Estonians consider linguistical relationship very important.Most of Estonians consider Hungarians their relatives.
Well, Finno-Ugrics are diverse, yes but they aren´t as different as Indo-Europeans.I have read that proto Indo-European language branched off c. 5000 years BC, proto-Uralic c. 4000-3500 years BC
not talking about proto-Finno-Ugric which diverged c.3000-2500 years BC into Ugric and Finno-Permic languages.
Even Estonians and Hungarians are not as different as Afrikaners and Persians not talking about Finnic Komis.
You are trying to distance yourself from your linguistical relatives.
I do not feel related to all Finno-Ugric people as Scots do not feel related to all Indo-Europeans... Do any European actually consider Gypsies to be their kin/brethren?
How much more this topic can be discussed ? It's nr.1 topic on the Apricity.
It's obvious that Karl will never back-off until everyone agrees that Estonia is as Nordic as possible.
Estonians are proud of their ethnic identity, as we have survived all the rough times. There are less than a million of us in Estonia. That's why I will never agree with someone wrongly labeling Estonian culture and mentality.
Black(Baltic/Balts) and white(Nordic) , Esonia is grey.So why there is no 3rd option in poll ?
I didn't ask if Estonians are Nordic, I asked if Estonians are Balts. This thread has nothing to do with Estonians being Nordic, but most of you bring the Nordic word into this thread, I do not know why. I didn't say anything about Estonians being Nordic in the original post.
As it turns out, the majority of people who have voted think that I'm an Indo-European Balt who's name should be Karlis.
The funny thing is, this should be a forum dedicated to the cultural and ethnic preservation of Europeans. How can anyone preserve anything if he/she doesn't know what he/she is preserving.
How can you preserve German culture if you think that they are Slavs? How can you preserve Italian culture, if you think that they're culture is Celtic?
I thought that maybe 1-2 people will try to be funny and vote yes in the poll, but the reality is that most people here(who have voted in the poll) are retarded or have a unique sense of humour.
esaima
09-30-2010, 08:21 PM
[QUOTE] 900 years ago, our neighbours to the south were still mostly Finnic people.
This statement is demagogical. 900 years ago Livonians and Estonians were practically the same people.So it is possible to say that 900 years ago our neighbours to the south were ... we selves.
But in fact southern neighbours of Livonians were Latvians then.
I do not feel related to all Finno-Ugric people as Scots do not feel related to all Indo-Europeans... Do any European actually consider Gypsies to be their kin/brethren?
I told you that Estonian and Komi or Hungarian languages aren´t as distant as Scottish and Gypsy or Persian.
I do not feel related to all Finno-Ugric people
Yes, I know.You would like to be a North-Germanic.
Estonians are proud of their ethnic identity,
Finno-Ugricness has been always an important part of Estonian identity.
As it turns out, the majority of people who have voted think that I'm an Indo-European Balt who's name should be Karlis.
Noone has told that you are a Balt. Simply Estonia is a Baltic country.
This statement is demagogical. 900 years ago Livonians and Estonians were practically the same people.So it is possible to say that 900 years ago our neighbours to the south were ... we selves.
But in fact southern neighbours of Livonians were Latvians then.
Livonians weren't the same people, if you ever have time then read "Henriku Liivimaa kroonika". Also if you look at a map of ancient Estonia, then SE-Estonia had more forts than SW-Estonia, because SW-Estonians bordered Livonians and SE-Estonians border Latgals. Latgals and Estonians made mutual war raids against each other, while we were at peaceful terms with the Livonians.
Yes, I know.You would like to be a North-Germanic.
No, I wouldn't, although I have very minor Estonian-Swede ancestry.
Finno-Ugricness has been always an important part of Estonian identity.
I agree.
Noone has told that you are a Balt. Simply Estonia is a Baltic country.
The people who have voted in this poll are either retarded or can't read. I didn't ask if Estonia is a Baltic country, I asked if Estonians are Balts.
Definition of Balts:
The Balts or Baltic peoples, defined as speakers of one of the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family, are descended from a group of Indo-European tribes who settled the area between the Jutland peninsula in the west and Moscow, Oka and Volga rivers basins in the east.
It's very comforting to know that most people on this forum, dedicated to European culture, think that Estonians are descended from a group of Indo-European tribes.
esaima
10-01-2010, 07:17 PM
[QUOTE=Karl;274831]
The people who have voted in this poll are either retarded or can't read. I didn't ask if Estonia is a Baltic country, I asked if Estonians are Balts.
Estonia is a Baltic country and peoples of Baltic countries are called Baltic people, you demagogue!
W. R.
10-01-2010, 07:20 PM
Definition of Balts:
The Balts or Baltic peoples, defined as speakers of one of the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family, are descended from a group of Indo-European tribes who settled the area between the Jutland peninsula in the west and Moscow, Oka and Volga rivers basins in the east.
Balt noun
:a native or inhabitant of Lithuania, Latvia, or Estonia
SOURCE: The Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/balts)I didn't vote, by the way.
Estonia is a Baltic country and peoples of Baltic countries are called Baltic people, you demagogue!
I'm not a demagogue, just read the official definition:
The Balts or Baltic peoples, defined as speakers of one of the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family.
I didn't vote, by the way.
You prove one of my points. This is the reason why I dislike the fact that Estonia is called a Baltic country.
Because of such differences among definitions, it isn't no miracle that most foreigners who know that the Baltic countries exist, assume that Estonians are Balts(speakers of Baltic languages, who descend from a group of Indo-Europeans).
And that's why I have been asked questions like this, "You probably speak Latvian fluently, but how well do you speak Lithuanian? On an average level or also fluently?".
Reality: I do not understand a word of Latvian and I have never heard Lithuanian being spoken.
Edit: To avoid confusion between the different term, I even inserted an URL link into my original post to show which definition of "Balts/Baltic people" I meant. By Balts I meant speakers of Baltic languages who descend from a group of Indo-Europeans. Still... most people think that Estonians are Indo-Europeans :ohwell:
RoyBatty
10-01-2010, 07:45 PM
no they is Eskimos
esaima
10-01-2010, 07:59 PM
Yes, my English may be poor but I am an Estonian, I know my country, I don´t like if Nordicists use it as cannon fodder, I am interested in balanced views and thus is not so easy for our nordic ideologue Karl to BS me with his nordic stuff.
Yes, my English may be poor but I am an Estonian, I know my country, I don´t like if Nordicists use it as cannon fodder, I am interested in balanced views and thus is not so easy for our nordic ideologue Karl to BS me with his nordic stuff.
There are no Estonian Nordicists on this forum, only Estonian Balticists. You are more concerned about Estonians being considered Balts, then I am about Estonians considered Nordic people, like they are.
You have proved on several occasions that you're saying things which aren't true. Just because you feel that you descend from an Indo-European group of people who speak Baltic languages, doesn't change the fact that the majority if not all Estonians do not feel related to the Balts.
Troll as much as you want, but you can't change the Estonian identity. You may only make a handful of people believe that Estonians are like Latvians and our names end with -is and my real name is Karlis.
esaima
10-02-2010, 08:27 AM
There are no Estonian Nordicists on this forum, only Estonian Balticists. You are more concerned about Estonians being considered Balts, then I am about Estonians considered Nordic people, like they are.
You simply like to puzzle people here.Look, noone (or at least 9/10) thinks here that Estonians are linguistically Balts.It is senseless to continiue discussion about that.
I simply disagree with you when you are claiming that Latvians are very different from Estonians.Because they simply aren´t, you may like it or not, who cares.
But one thing is very interesting- it seems you aren´t only a Russophobe, you are also... a Lettophobe.If you are, you are very unique, I know no more Lettophobes among Estonians.
You simply like to puzzle people here.Look, noone (or at least 9/10) thinks here that Estonians are linguistically Balts.It is senseless to continiue discussion about that.
I actually included the definitions of "Balts" in my original post. I'm naively believing that all people who voted, did read that definition and article in Wikipedia and truly think that Estonians are speakers of Baltic languages and descend from Indo-European tribes.
I simply disagree with you when you are claiming that Latvians are very different from Estonians.Because they simply aren´t, you may like it or not, who cares.
Latvians aren't very different from us, like you claim. It's just the fact that Finns and Swedes are culturally and by mentality, closer to us.
But one thing is very interesting- it seems you aren´t only a Russophobe, you are also... a Lettophobe.If you are, you are very unique, I know no more Lettophobes among Estonians.
What is a Lettophobe? Estonia doesn't have any Lithuanian/Latvian immigrants, I am neutral towards them.
W. R.
10-02-2010, 02:21 PM
I'm naively believing that all people who voted, did read that definition and article in Wikipedia and truly think that Estonians are speakers of Baltic languages and descend from Indo-European tribes.If you had asked Do Estonians speak a Baltic language and are they Indo-Europeans? you might have got quite different results.
In the end, Nordic is a popular term with no official/indisputable definition. Popular usage has dictated that Nordic/Nordic countries refers to Scandinavia and Finland, without the inclusion of Estonia/Estonians.
Anyone arguing that Estonia is Nordic and that Estonians are a Nordic people is trying to change the commonplace definition of a word/term. Whether Estonians are Baltic is debatable, that they are not Nordic, is not.
If you had asked Do Estonians speak a Baltic language and are they Indo-Europeans? you might have got quite different results.
If you Google "Balts", then this is the first result you get:
The Balts or Baltic peoples (People who live by the Baltic Sea), defined as speakers of one of the Baltic languages, a branch of the Indo-European language family, are descended from a group of Indo-European tribes who settled the area between the Jutland peninsula in the west and Moscow, Oka and Volga rivers basins in the east.
Typing Balts was way easier than the long sentence you proposed. No one uses the definition "Balts", when talking about Estonians. At least here. Our country is called Baltic by us, but we do not call ourselves Balts. We are Finnic and Nordic.
The definition of Balts is pretty obvious, but just in case I added it into my original post.
I do not care what you say. I asked a question and added info into the original post to make it clear in what context I meant "Balts/Baltic people".
Thus I make 3 conclusions:
The majority of people who voted, are retarded.
The majority of people who voted, cannot read.
The majority of people who voted, are trolling.
Conclusion number 3 is the most probable.
In the end, Nordic is a popular term with no official/indisputable definition. Popular usage has dictated that Nordic/Nordic countries refers to Scandinavia and Finland, without the inclusion of Estonia/Estonians.
Anyone arguing that Estonia is Nordic and that Estonians are a Nordic people is trying to change the commonplace definition of a word/term. Whether Estonians are Baltic is debatable, that they are not Nordic, is not.
In every possible book/newspaper/magazine you picked up in the 1920's, Finland was called a Baltic country... No term is official. Calling Finland, Baltic, is as dumb as calling Estonia, Baltic.
Thus I make 3 conclusions:
The majority of people who voted, are retarded.
The majority of people who voted, cannot read.
The majority of people who voted, are trolling.
Conclusion number 3 is the most probable.
You should add a fourth possible conclusion:
4. The majority of people who voted, disagree with me
W. R.
10-02-2010, 02:43 PM
In every possible book/newspaper/magazine you picked up in the 1920's, Finland was called a Baltic country... No term is official. Calling Finland, Baltic, is as dumb as calling Estonia, Baltic.
In The Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary you can find:
First Known Use: 1937
It would be interesting to take an exemplar of the dictionary published at that time and look the word up: maybe indeed back then Finns were Balts too. And I don't apply than Finns were Indo-Europeans before WWII. I just mean that the word "Balt" might have had a slightly different meaning.
Osweo
10-02-2010, 02:43 PM
I am still wavering between these options;
5. Silly forum polls can't possibly reflect the realities of a complex ethnological, historical, geographical and political matter.
6. Go listen to Vanilla Ninja, Karl!!!
You should add a fourth possible conclusion:
4. The majority of people who voted, disagree with me
How can anyone disagree with Estonians not being speakers of a Baltic language and descending from an Indo-European group?
I understand such poll results if I wouldn't have added an URL link of the definition I meant, into my original post.
If the majority of people who voted, disagree with me about Estonians not being speakers of a Baltic language and descending from an Indo-European group, then I still think that they're either retarded or ignorant, or both.
How can anyone disagree with me? It is common knowledge since the 19th century that Estonians do not speak a Baltic language and aren't Balts.
I am still wavering between these options;
5. Silly forum polls can't possibly reflect the realities of a complex ethnological, historical, geographical and political matter.
I made this poll half-jokingly, but could never foresee such results. It never even crossed my mind that the majority would think that Estonians are Indo-Europeans who speak a Baltic language.
6. Go listen to Vanilla Ninja, Karl!!!
I'm currently listening to Vägilased (http://www.vagilased.ee/eng/) :)
How can anyone disagree with Estonians not being speakers of a Baltic language and descending from an Indo-European group?
Did they disagree? Where can I find that poll? I hope you're not referring to this one, since it's an entirely different question.
If the majority of people who voted, disagree with me ...., then I still think that they're either retarded or ignorant, or both.
If that is your approach to debate and reason, then I reckon you need to re-evaluate what you're trying to get out of debating with people in the first place.
Did they disagree? Where can I find that poll? I hope you're not referring to this one, since it's an entirely different question.
If that is your approach to debate and reason, then I reckon you need to re-evaluate what you're trying to get out of debating with people in the first place.
Estonians not being speakers of a Baltic language nor descending from Indo-Europeans, is not debatable.
Anyone trying to argue the fact that Estonians aren't speakers of a Baltic language and do not descend from Indo-Europeans, is dumb or ignorant in my eyes.
Osweo
10-02-2010, 03:13 PM
For God's sake, Karl, you live by the Baltic Sea. That makes you Baltic, end of story. Finns speak a 'Baltic-Finnic' or прибалто-финнский language, and so do you. Swedes are a Baltic people too, in this sense of the word.
It's just coincidence that there is a more specific language group whose name was taken from the geography. A stupid inconvenient coincidence, but there you go, you have to live with it.
And in ancient times, the Balts proper probably penetrated your lands to some extent, and left genes there, just as a Finnic substrate left its mark in the Latvians and Lithuanians too.
You have a common history of being the unlucky 'piggy in the middle', and of German aristocrats ruling over a peasant society. And you love your холодец. :D
For God's sake, Karl, you live by the Baltic Sea. That makes you Baltic, end of story. Finns speak a 'Baltic-Finnic' or прибалто-финнский language, and so do you. Swedes are a Baltic people too, in this sense of the word.
It's just coincidence that there is a more specific language group whose name was taken from the geography. A stupid inconvenient coincidence, but there you go, you have to live with it.
If living by the Baltic sea makes one a Balt, then why aren't Danes, Swedes, Finns, Germans, Poles and Russians, called Balts? Because the term "Balt" is linguistic/cultural.
Estonians are not Balts.
And in ancient times, the Balts proper probably penetrated your lands to some extent, and left genes there, just as a Finnic substrate left its mark in the Latvians and Lithuanians too.
The areas they penetrated, currently belong to Latvia. That's why Northern-Latvians are more Estonian than Latvian.
If you look at a map where all the ancient Estonian forts are marked, then the biggest concentration is in South-Eastern Estonia. Because Estonians there, bordered the Latgals. South-Eastern Estonians could beat off the Balts and even made regular raids to Latgal territory. But still, a part of Northern-Latvia used to be Estonian land.
When you look at South-Western Estonia, then you see fewer forts, because Estonians there bordered the Livonians, other calm, peace-loving Finnic people.
You have a common history of being the unlucky 'piggy in the middle', and of German aristocrats ruling over a peasant society. And you love your холодец. :D
My Russian skills aren't so good, what's "holodez"?
The Ripper
10-02-2010, 03:24 PM
Estonians are Baltic but not Balts. Finland is also a Baltic nation geographically. Finland is Baltic Finnish / Finnic as is Estonia. Finland is Nordic but not Scandinavian. Estonia is neither Scandinavian nor Nordic. Karl is a puupää.
Estonians are Baltic but not Balts.
How are Estonians, Baltic? We are purely talking from a linguistic/cultural viewpoint, in this thread. I posted the link to the definition I meant, in the original post.
Finland is also a Baltic nation geographically. Finland is Baltic Finnish / Finnic as is Estonia.
Finland is as Baltic as Estonia, I agree.
Finland is Nordic but not Scandinavian. Estonia is neither Scandinavian nor Nordic.
This thread is about Estonians not Estonia. Estonia may be called a Baltic country, but Estonians are Nordic, not Baltic.
Karl is a puupää.
Sa oled ise üks paras puupea ;)
Osweo
10-02-2010, 03:33 PM
If living by the Baltic sea makes one a Balt, then why aren't Danes, Swedes, Finns, Germans, Poles and Russians, called Balts? Because the term "Balt" is linguistic/cultural.
Estonians are not Balts.
I said 'Baltic' anyway. Same as the Sea. An Adjective.
English can be subtle here. I'd be less likely to call you 'Balts' than 'Baltic'.
The areas they penetrated, currently belong to Latvia. That's why Northern-Latvians are more Estonian than Latvian.
Other archaeology says different. Other archaeology would take the whole complex even up into Finland, possibly before Germanic and Balto-Slavonic diverged and differentiated.
Northern Latvians are Latvian, I bet. Perhaps a few of them can remember Granny talking in a strange language. Perhaps even fewer are enthusiasts for Liv culture. Probably all just identify as Latvians, though. No?
My Russian skills aren't so good, what's "holodez"?
Yeah yeah! I bet you watch Городок every night... :p
Иди его гуглить, ради Бога... Куради райск, блин!
I said 'Baltic' anyway. Same as the Sea. An Adjective.
English can be subtle here. I'd be less likely to call you 'Balts' than 'Baltic'.
Estonians are not Balts and they're Baltic in the same way as Swedes, Finns and Danes. Although nobody calls Swedes, Danes and Finns, Baltic.
Other archaeology says different. Other archaeology would take the whole complex even up into Finland, possibly before Germanic and Balto-Slavonic diverged and differentiated.
Northern Latvians are Latvian, I bet. Perhaps a few of them can remember Granny talking in a strange language. Perhaps even fewer are enthusiasts for Liv culture. Probably all just identify as Latvians, though. No?
I found this random thing in the internet a few days ago, I think it's written by a Latvian:
Estonians
There were in Vidzeme [Livland] province of the Russia Empire 4 apriņķi mainly inhabited by Latvians, and these apriņķi later went to Latvia. The other 5 apriņķi became part of Estonia, because Estonians inhabited there.
So the both ethnicities lived quite close together in the same province. It happened sometimes that some landowners owned manors in both Estonian and Latvian parts of Vidzeme province and moved their serfs from one manor to another, which created mutual migration. For example, the owner of Rencēni manor F.Sivers (the manor is situated near Valmiera) bought 137 Estonian serfs in 1789./vābe/
In the papers of church archives, that I have gathered, I have found some documented information on individual Estonians migrating to Valmiera aprinkis in the 19th century. It will be made available here later.
In any case, Estonian names are not rare in the Northern regions of Latvia. I have spent pretty good part of my youth there and remember my 2 classmates (of 12 pupils) in Trapene elementary school - Valge and Kanaleps. Nobody doubted they were Latvians, in spite of the evident Estonian meaning of their names. Valge means white, and Kanaleps, as the boy explained, was spoiled kalanepp - from kala - fish, nepp - snipe. Another example: we had a teacher named Ploomipū (or Ploomipuu in Estonian spelling) in Gaujiena secondary school, and the name sounded quite funny for the schoolchildren (its meaning is plum-tree). Of course, these were not the only names of Estonian origin in the school and in its vicinity.
Another Estonian from the Northern region of Latvia you can meet in the Page on military service in Latvia (http://www.roots-saknes.lv/Army/LatvKaraklaus/LatvKaraklausiba.htm)
Generally speaking, it is surprising that relatively many people admit their Estonian heritage or have evident Estonian names here in Latvia today. At least this is my impression that their share should be greater than 0.12% of the population that is the share of Estonians in Latvia now (1995).
Estonians in Latgale
According to the information in /LKV/, the Census of 1897 counted 1035 Estonians (more precisely - the persons speaking Estonian as the mother tongue) in Rēzeknes aprinķis that was rather far from the Estonian apriņķi of Vidzeme province. Presumably the ancestors of that people were moved to this location at the beginning of the 18th century as war prisoners or perhaps by a manor owner as serfs.
These 1035 persons lived in the following villages of Mērdzenes pagasts:
Degtereva, Kitkava, Rozāri, Silagaiļi, alaji, Tobolava, and Valujevi. The total number of Estonians here - 80 persons.
Many more of them lived in Pildas pagasts - 906 persons. Here they were registered in the following villages:
Baldači, Belomoiki, Borovaja, Inķēni, Kukujeva, Laizāni, Lielie Ķepi, Lācīi, Mazie Ķepi, Paideri, Purkaļi, Pūkaiņi, Rabakazi, Stalāni, ķirpēni, nitki, Tribuki, Varkaļi, Vēēni.
These Estonians remembered that some time ago they were Lutherans, but to 1897 almost all of them became Catholics that was the main religion in this region. The elderly Estonians of Pildas pagasts spoke Estonian and followed Estonian customs, but the new generation began to assimilate into Latvians and Russians. By the way, a well-known politician Anatolijs Gorbunovs in a newspaper interview (1997) informed that he had discovered some genealogical links to Estonians that were moved to Latgale.
I can note to the both lists of village names mentioned above that quite many of the names coincide with person names known to me, which is not surprising, because it was the common practice in Latgale in the time of the naming (1864) to give to almost all of the inhabitants of a village the name of the village. One of them, and namely - Paideri could be understood as a German word for the inhabitants of an Estonian town Paide, but I do not insist it was really coined in this way. In any case, if your name is close to a name from the above lists of Latgalian villages, search for an Estonian connection in your origin.
Link here (http://www.roots-saknes.lv/Ethnicities/Estonians/estonians.htm)
Yeah yeah! I bet you watch Городок every night... :p
Иди его гуглить, ради Бога... Куради райск, блин!
What's gorodok and translate your Russian text. I did only understand "kuradi raisk, blin!" As kuradi and raisk are Estonian words, just written in Russian letters for some reason.
Osweo
10-02-2010, 03:46 PM
Иди его гуглить, ради Бога... Куради райск, блин!
= Put it in Google, for God's sake!
Estonians not being speakers of a Baltic language nor descending from Indo-Europeans, is not debatable.
Straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman):
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Let me cut it to you straight:
1) Most people here disagree with your poll of: "Are Estonians, Balts/Baltic people?"
2) We have no idea yet how many people agree/disagree with a different question that you are now raising: "Are Estonians speakers of a Baltic language or descending from Indo-Europeans?"
I don't know why you keep banging on about the latter when you want to attack people who have voted for the former question. Apples and pears.
Straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman):
Let me cut it to you straight:
1) Most people here disagree with your poll of: "Are Estonians, Balts/Baltic people?"
2) We have no idea yet how many people agree/disagree with a different question that you are now raising: "Are Estonians speakers of a Baltic language or descending from Indo-Europeans?"
I don't know why you keep banging on about the latter when you want to attack people who have voted for the former question. Apples and pears.
Well, I "keep baning on about the latter", because I gave a link in the original post, which did lead to the Wikipedia article named "Balts". I meant Balts/Baltic people, purely in a linguistic/cultural meaning. As it should have been obvious to most people who clicked on the link I inserted into my original post.
Are Estonians, Balts/Baltic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts)?
;)
I'm also adding a map for greater clarity:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png
Well, I "keep baning on about the latter", because I gave a link in the original post, which did lead to the Wikipedia article named "Balts". I meant Balts/Baltic people, purely in a linguistic/cultural meaning. As it should have been obvious to most people who clicked on the link I inserted into my original post.
You have shifted the goalposts then. Make a new poll, being more clear and unambiguous in your question, and then we can draw more accurate conclusions.
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