Of Slavs, Balts, and Germans

[Robocop]

One interesting story; when Germans first came to Prussia and Lithuania, they encounter in every Baltic house (of Prussia and Lithuania) a GREEN SNAKES, every house had GREEN SNAKE (this is why even today all Lithuanian national SPORT TEAMS have GREEN COLOR of T-shirts).

Germans hated that, they forced Baltics to throw away all of their customs, and tried to Germanize them, they succeded unfortunately with Prussia but not with Lithuania.

Later on, Germans were placing germans on force in Prussia, but Germans never truly became majority of Prussians, MAJORITY OF PRUSSIANS WERE GERMANIZED BALTICS (Germanized in terms of language).

P.S. Lunatic Hitler also viewed/considered Baltics as very "nice ppl" for Germanization, he also failed.

[Dick]

One interesting story; when Germans first came to Prussia and Lithuania, they encounter in every Baltic house (of Prussia and Lithuania) a GREEN SNAKES, every house had GREEN SNAKE (this is why even today all Lithuanian national SPORT TEAMS have GREEN COLOR of T-shirts).

Germans hated that, they forced Baltics to throw away all of their customs, and tried to Germanize them, they succeded unfortunately with Prussia but not with Lithuania.

Later on, Germans were placing germans on force in Prussia, but Germans never truly became majority of Prussians, MAJORITY OF PRUSSIANS WERE GERMANIZED BALTICS (Germanized in terms of language).

P.S. Lunatic Hitler also viewed/considered Baltics as very "nice ppl" for Germanization, he also failed.

OK

[Robocop]

OK

Well you can be sarcastic, but many ppl don't know that, and why shouldn't I tell them. lol

[Sandman]

[B]P.S. Lunatic Hitler also viewed/considered Baltics as very "nice ppl" for Germanization, he also failed.

The reality is a little more complex. But this is not the topic of Balts. My next topic may will be on the comparison Balts with the Slavs.:)

[Robocop]

The reality is a little more complex. But this is not the topic of Balts. My next topic may will be on the comparison Balts with the Slavs.:)

It is much more complex but I wanted to mention the most important things about it because many ppl here are not even awared of that considering Germanics and Balts.

Balts are truly interesting people and often forgotten in European conversations.

Balts are closely connected to your branch of Slavs (the only true Slavs), but they are unique in their own way, very unique, consider linguistics and almost everythin else.

They are truly somethin which this forum (and others) should write more about.

[DarknessWin]

It is much more complex but I wanted to mention the most important things about it because many ppl here are not even awared of that considering Germanics and Balts.

Balts are truly interesting people and often forgotten in European conversations.

Balts are closely connected to your branch of Slavs (the only true Slavs), but they are unique in their own way, very unique, consider linguistics and almost everythin else.

They are truly somethin which this forum (and others) should write more about.

Ancient Slavs were dolichocephalic and tall, Polish are very Brachy and in medium height (1.78 like Greeks)
I believe that they are a mix of Goths-Huns and Slavs

So i believe the most Slavic countries are the South Slavs, at least they mixed only with native ancient balkan people and not with huns or tatars from asia

[Robocop]

Ancient Slavs were dolichocephalic and tall, Polish are very Brachy and in medium height (1.78 like Greeks)
I believe that they are a mix of Goths-Huns and Slavs

So i believe the most Slavic countries are the South Slavs, at least they mixed only with native ancient balkan people and not with huns or tatars from asia

I think that is more true for Eastern Slavs, especially having in mind that Goths settled themselves in 2nd century in eastern Europe after they came from GotLand in 1st century.

Also Polish area was relatively protected from Huns, it means... it wasn't of some interest to Huns, but area of eastern Europe was gateway for Huns into Europe, after that Pannonia and then Italy and Western europe in terms that they attacked it.

I think Polish ppl have some Germanic admixture and Germans have some of theirs, in the end it doesn't matter really, I think overall Polish are maybe the only true Slavs you can find out there, everyone else in eastern Europe is questionable about been Slavic, maybe Belarus ppl are also true Slavs but that is it.

[Ülev]

Roberto Grande should come here, because of Čech and his helmet, lol

[War Chef]

We get it, you Poles are uber-white.....

pick better photos next time faggot

[Peterski]

Everyone talks about Slavic/Germanic DNA when in fact we still don't have ancient DNA samples from Proto-Slavs.

RISE98 from Scania was most certainly a Proto-Germanic speaker so in this case we already have some idea.

Show me guys how many segments >1cM do you share with RISE98 on Gedmatch, and then we can talk.

But first you need to actually test your DNA.

[Peterski]

Comparing Kit T269964 (*Litvin) and F999941 (RISE98,Sweden,3.7ky)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 25 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 25 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

Largest segment = 7.3 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 1,065.6 cM
685 matching segments

553920 SNPs used for this comparison.

Comparison took 0.04043 seconds.

[glass]

Magnolia, do you consider slovaks brotherly people or (very) close related to czechs?

[Peterski]

By the way, there is this long-lasting dispute on whether Hitler was German or Austrian.

If we could obtain Hitler's DNA sample then I think PuntDNAL K15 could solve the dispute.

Example of how a "True Austrian" looks like in PuntDNALK15 (one of GEDmatch calculators):


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance:

1 Austrian 1.05
2 Slovenian 2.3
3 Hungarian 2.58
4 Irish 3.47
5 Orcadian 3.55
6 Croatian 4.13
7 North_German 4.19
8 English 4.36
9 Scottish 4.94
10 Norwegian 5.33
11 Utahn_White 5.99
12 South_German 6.41
(...)

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance:

1 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% AriBlackSmith @ 0.97
2 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Nganassan @ 0.97
3 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Bedouin_B @ 0.99
4 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Dolgan @ 1
5 99.5% Austrian + 0.5% Selkup @ 1.01
6 99% Austrian + 1% Basque @ 1.01
7 98.8% Austrian + 1.2% Spaniard @ 1.02
8 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% AriCultivator @ 1.02
9 99.5% Austrian + 0.5% Sardinian @ 1.02
10 99.8% Austrian + 0.2% Papuan @ 1.02
11 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Saudi @ 1.03
12 99.2% Austrian + 0.8% Brazilian @ 1.03
13 98.9% Austrian + 1.1% Mordovian @ 1.03
14 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Moroccan @ 1.04
15 99.9% Austrian + 0.1% Melanesian @ 1.04
16 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Mozabite_Berber @ 1.04
17 99.6% Austrian + 0.4% Puerto_Rican @ 1.04
18 99.7% Austrian + 0.3% Colombian_B @ 1.04
19 95.9% Austrian + 4.1% Orcadian @ 1.04
20 96.7% Austrian + 3.3% English @ 1.04

Least-squares method:

Using 1 population approximation:

1 Austrian @ 1.834648
2 Slovenian @ 3.012423
3 Orcadian @ 3.551322
4 Irish @ 3.586220
5 Hungarian @ 3.795977
6 North_German @ 4.162593
7 English @ 4.431090
8 Scottish @ 4.825833
9 Norwegian @ 5.409451
10 Croatian @ 5.463852
11 Utahn_White @ 6.694263
12 Swedish @ 6.971464
13 South_German @ 7.336555
(...)

Using 2 populations approximation:

1 50% Austrian +50% Austrian @ 1.834648

Using 3 populations approximation:

1 50% Austrian +25% Austrian +25% Austrian @ 1.834648

Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Scottish + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.641198
2 Orcadian + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.679857
3 Lithuanian + Scottish + Austrian + Montenegrin @ 1.713121
4 English + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.768368
5 North_German + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.788517
6 Lithuanian + English + Austrian + Romanian @ 1.794720
7 Lithuanian + English + Austrian + Montenegrin @ 1.830812
8 Norwegian + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.833493
9 Austrian + Austrian + Austrian + Austrian @ 1.834648
(...)

There is a similar dispute regarding Mozart, which IMO could also be solved using GEDmatch.

[Peterski]

Robocop, most of that info which you posted is incorrect or obsolete by several years (for example the idea that R1a is more Indo-European than R1b). As for R1a-M458 - it is neither less nor more closely related to R1a-L664 than R1a-Z280. They are both equally closely (or maybe rather equally non-closely depends how you look at it) related to R1a-L664. Because M458 and Z280 are "brothers", while L664 is their "distant cousin".

Also according to Peter Gwozdz, proportion of M458 to Z280 in Polish population is exactly 50:50.

I used to have a thread about Y-DNA subclades in Poland but it was deleted after the forum crash.

And M458 is actually more exclusively Slavic than Z280. Z280 is Balto-Slavic rather than just Slavic.

Lithuanians and Latvians have not much of M458, but a lot of Z280. About 3-4 times more of Z280.

[Ülev]

Robocop, most of that info which you posted is incorrect or obsolete by several years (for example the idea that R1a is more Indo-European than R1b). As for R1a-M458 - it is neither less nor more closely related to R1a-L664 than R1a-Z280. They are both equally closely (or maybe rather equally non-closely depends how you look at it) related to R1a-L664. Because M458 and Z280 are "brothers", while L664 is their "distant cousin".

Also according to Peter Gwozdz, proportion of M458 to Z280 in Polish population is exactly 50:50.

I used to have a thread about Y-DNA subclades in Poland but it was deleted after the forum crash.

And M458 is actually more exclusively Slavic than Z280. Z280 is Balto-Slavic rather than just Slavic.

Lithuanians and Latvians have not much of M458, but a lot of Z280.

ok, so here are your maps

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

[Ülev]

and of course Litvin chart

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png

[Peterski]

Currently Polish scientists are researching ancient DNA of the Piast dynasty. Including Y-DNA.

According to one of several theories, the Piast dynasty was of Great Moravian origin.

So if this theory is true, they should have Y-DNA similar to Czechs and Slovaks.

I asked geneticist prof. Michał Milewski "will it be possible to determine whether a particular Piast subclade of R1a is of Polish or Czech origin". He replied something like this: "probably no because there is a lot of overlap and there are no any Czech-specific subclades which cannot be found also among Poles".

So it will be very hard to determine whether Piast R1a is of Great Moravian or of Polish origin.

Assuming that they had R1a.

[Peterski]

ok, so here are your maps

Yeah. And M558 = Z280. I made those maps in 2015.

So according to those maps, Poles have even more of M458 than of Z280.

Those maps are based on data from Underhill 2014.

But according to Peter Gwozdz - the proportion is actually 50:50.

I have made some new research recently. Those maps are a bit obsolete. :p

[Magnolia]

Magnolia, do you consider slovaks brotherly people or (very) close related to czechs?
Why are you asking?

[Peterski]

BTW - according to most authors, Croats have more Z280 than M458.

Underhill 2014 was actually an exception. His sample could be biased.

[Peterski]

BTW:

There is an important split within M458 - one major branch is L260, the other one is CTS11962.

I wonder which of these two is more common in Czech Republic.

And then CTS11962 is divided into L1029 and YP515. While L260 into YP254 and YP654.

[Ülev]

according to eupedia l-260

[Peterski]

according to eupedia l-260

In Poland also L260. And most of Polish L260 belongs to YP254 sub-branch.

[Peterski]

As for R1a-L664 mentioned by Robocop. It seems that Wojciech Korfanty belonged to this branch:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojciech_Korfanty

This is based on testing DNA of another Korfanty, not of Wojciech himself.

They all descend from Constantine H. Corfanti who came to Silesia from Veneto around year 1641.

[Robocop]

BTW - according to most authors, Croats have more Z280 than M458.

Underhill 2014 was actually an exception. His sample could be biased.

Yeah, this is true, anyway... we always were somewhat different than other Slavs around us. lol.

P.S. That map I shown you before, for all Y-DNA haplogroups of Europe, I know it is outdated, but it was made so well that I even today use it because of general overview... :)

Map is made before 2010, because, as you see, on that map they call I2a1b (my haplogroup lol) still as I2a2 (which was term for I2a1b untill 2010).

[Magnolia]

Btw. IMO genetic studies of Slavic-speaking populations shouldn't be conducted by Poles and Russians :-). There is a risk that they pursue their power goals through manipulation of these studies.

[Robocop]

Btw. IMO genetic studies of Slavic-speaking populations shouldn't be conducted by Poles and Russians :-). There is a risk that they pursue their power goals through manipulation of these studies.

LOL.

I have even better idea, Poles are ok, but we shouldn't let Russians to make any kind of protection over Slavs, because we all know how "protective" Russians are :D.

guys please.. how long you will be discussing some stuff on this thread?)) 14 pages so far as if people are really comparing three types of slavs and as if the op post is representative and worth to talk about.

http://i.imgur.com/jc01uWa.gif

i already spoke here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?193744-Compare-three-groups-of-Slavs/page2&p=4029028#post4029028)

[Peterski]

Btw. IMO genetic studies of Slavic-speaking populations shouldn't be conducted by Poles and Russians :-). There is a risk that they pursue their power goals through manipulation of these studies.

Nobody forbids Czechs to start their own research, follow our example. :p

Poznan Center for Archeogenomics is now among the most modern genetic laboratories in the world:

https://www.ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki/przyklady-projektow/figlerowicz?language=en


The project will be carried out in Poznan Center for Archeogenomics which is formed by three research units:

(i) Faculty of History, Adam Mickiewicz University (AMU), (ii) Faculty of Biology, AMU, and (iii) Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry, Polish Academy of Sciences (IBCH PAS). In addition, we plan close cooperation with the group of German historians from the University of Münster. This group is headed by Prof. Eduard Mühle – a well-known specialist in the history of Central and Central Eastern Europe. To achieve the main goals of the project, we plan multidimensional and interdisciplinary (historical, archeological, anthropological, genetic and genomic) studies of the populations inhabiting the territory of present-day Wielkopolska in the time ranging from the Roman-era Iron Age up to the Early Middle Ages. We plan to achieve the above-mentioned objectives with the use of standard methods of physical anthropology and modern bioarcheological and bioinformatic techniques, including aDNA analysis by NGS [Next-Generation Sequencing].

I don't think that Russians already have anything like this. Especially NGS is a very new method.

By the way, this study will be published soon (maybe before the end of 2016, or early in 2017).

[Peterski]

"Of Slavs, Balts and Germans" - sounds like my results minus Celts:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?273452-Half-of-my-East-European-ancestry-is-Finnish

https://i.imgur.com/aM70fIA.png