Albanians, indigenous in kosovo?

[Ushtari]

Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan, only because there was an ancient land called Albania there. What Serbs/Greeks dont know is that the Word Albania is a proto-european word wich means "White Alps" in Latin. We dont call ourself "Albanians" but Shqiptar, earlier we called ourself "Arbëreshë"

Also

"Alba, a Gaelic name for Scotland, may be related to the Greek name of Britain Albion, Latinized as Albania during the High Medieval period, and later passed into Middle English as Albany."
:rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_(name)

Serbs claim Albanians are intruders to Kosovo. Well lets see what facts have to say about this.


"Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however--including modern Albania--averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue."

"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one."

"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."

Nationbuilding in the Balkans (http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm)

"What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of
northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the
survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs."

Noel Malcolm - Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs (http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs)
Kosovo, Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs - Noel Malcolm (http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html)

[Guapo]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

[Osweo]

Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan,

No. Let me correct that for you;

Only the most ignorant Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan.


But where Illyrians survived in the Eighth Century is irrelevant to the position of Serbs in the 1990s. :rolleyes:

[Osweo]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

Aye, I actually bought his book 'Kosovo' back in those days. The book was obviously rushed out to desperately influence the reading public here in favour of the shameful intervention going on. :(

[Bari]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

- During Edith Durhams first work, "Through the lands of the Serbs" she was biased (like other authors of the time) by being pro-Serb in personal stance. Something she even states in her later works("High Albania"). Except for a few old dubious statistics on settlements, do you have any better to come up with? Noel Malcolm is not a author i nessecarily put much trust in myself, as i realize he had/has an agenda himself, but not everything he had written down can be dismissed by that.

I would especially like to see an elaboration on Western Kosovo(Rugova,..) as to proving that the settlers are new arrivals. Many of theese whom belong to same tribe as me, are far from being new settlers in theese areas.

AzhRoopBf34

Serbia has no doubt much history in this region as well dating well back in time, but to dismiss Albanian presence as nothing but a mere minority with no historical ties to the land is biased. Who has right to what, also, is according to where in Kosovo. Because some parts have more historical ties with Albania, others with Serbia. I am not interested in what as a whole belong to who, but more want to clarify that either part cannot fully claim right to it all, as both have much history there.

In one of the biggest monasteries Decani you can find a document saying " Radomir son of Gjin" its obvious that the father has an Albanian name, and the son changed it because of the pressure done by the Serbs and assimilation politics. As well theres examples of former Albanian Catholic churches transformed into Serbian Orthodox monasteries. I am not dismissing neither side entirely, as there are withouth doubt much proof as well of Serbian presence as Albanian in the region. Which is why i find it hard to say it belong to either completely.

Do you agree that todays political borders cannot fully support territorial claims, as it presents no clear indicator of where and which people lived exactly through history?

My personal feelings and conclusion are that neither group can be entirery dismissed as to right on living/claim territory.

[Bari]

No. Let me correct that for you;

Only the most ignorant Serbs and Greeks claim Albanians have their origin in Azerbaijan.


But where Illyrians survived in the Eighth Century is irrelevant to the position of Serbs in the 1990s. :rolleyes:

- Attempts to mongrelize one another are done by both sides, and i think it was unnessecary by Reach to include it in this thread. Typical Balkanian thing to dismiss the other as aliens. Though highly irrelevant for this debate.

But then again, what would you say is relevant for todays position in a debate, and is not ignorant to completely dismiss either side based on your personal feelings on the matter? I would like to hear you elaborate more on your view of the matter.

[Turkophagos]

Albanian propaganda confuses me. They have to decide if they are Illyrians, Pelasgians or Epirotans...

[Osweo]

- Attempts to mongrelize one another are done by both sides, and i think it was unnessecary by Reach to include it in this thread. Typical Balkanian thing to dismiss the other as aliens. Though highly irrelevant for this debate.
Absolutely, and very tiresome.

But then again, what would you say is relevant for todays position in a debate, and is not ignorant to completely dismiss either side based on your personal feelings on the matter? I would like to hear you elaborate more on your view of the matter.
Hmm............

I fear it's too late for this with Kosovo. :( Subtlety is needed, but I don't see how this can happen with a triumphalist Muslim ascendancy in the province.

But that Radomir son of Gjin is interesting.

We have similar examples in southern Scotland - an area that went from Welsh to English to Gaelic rule, and back to English speech but Scottish identity in the present time;

A chief of the Macleans married Rioghnach, daughter of Gamel, lord of Carrick about 1300. The lady's name is Gaelic, though her father's name is English. ....
The wife of Radulph [English name], son of Dunegal [Welsh name] of Stranit (Nithsdale), was Bethoc,... a well known woman's name in Gaelic

The thing is though, Gjin's grandson was probably called Radovan, and his son Radoslav, and his Boguslav, Slavomir, etc. etc. until our day. That's what is lost sight of here. Gjin's descendants have been Serbs to all intents and purposes for centuries. When Serbs were dominant, they probably reproduced better, and Gjin's descendants married more and more into their Slavonic neighbours until the Albanian in them was diluted out of recognition, or at least so dispersed that it fell from notice. I gather there was a more mixed scattered distribution of people in Kosovo until recent times though (but still in some parts), so Gjin's brother might not have called his kid with a Slavonic name, I suppose. I am unclear of the relative preponderances of the different identities at different times, though a general trend seems clear. I've looked at plenty of older ethnographic maps, from French, German, English, Serbian and Bulgarian researchers, and the main impression I get is that Albanians have ousted Serbs in many parts in very recent times. I might care less if this wasn't accompanied by minarets shooting up everywhere and churches getting desecrated. :ohwell:

What happened to all the Vlachs that were on the old maps, though? Have they all become one or the other in the Serb/ALbanian dichotomy? Is it possible that Gjin might well have been Ioannus, a Latin speaker himself, and the clerk just spelt his name in a way more familiar to him for whatever reason?

[poiuytrewq0987]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#15th_century

:coffee:

[Guapo]

More than 90% of geographical names in today's Kosovo ("kos" which means a blackbird) are of the Serb origin which proves the centuries long existance of the Serb people and its culture in this area. Albanians use the word Kosova which is derived from the Serbian word. Names of other cities also have their Albanian equivalent of Serb toponyms(Malisevo - Malisheva, Pec - Peja, Prizren - Prizreni, Pristina - Prishtine etc)

Metohia designates the western part of the today's province of Kosovo. It derives its name from the Greek word (metohion, pl. metohia, meaning - monastery estates. In the Middle Ages all the most important Serb Orthodox Monasteries in the region had their estates in Metohia, especially vineyards near Orahovac.

[Ushtari]

Noel Malcom. For a scholar who is neither versed in Slav studies nor a balkanologist, and who, judging by his scholarly credentials, until recently never had anything whatsoever to do with the history of the Balkans, it strikes one as unconvincing, even in sheer physical terms, that he could have managed to digest and synthesize, within 2-3 years, such a huge quantity of archives and archival holdings in so many languages, consulted such a massive literature in eleven European languages. A quite heterogeneous literature at that.

He refers to almost all works by Mary Edith Durham, but he ignores her first serious work, Through the Lands of the Serb, in which she touches on Kosovo-Metohija. Everything leads to the conclusion that by referring to such a mass of sources and literature in general, Noel Malcolm in fact wanted to conceal his real motifs while doing his best to conceal his mission as an advocate of the separatist movement of the Albanian minority in Serbia by an aura of alleged scholarship and thoroughness.

Well i understand how you Serbs must feel now when Facts are presented. No matter what, Noel Malcolm is 1000 times more reliable then any of your sources(wich btw are not from any serious historian nor linguist, but taken from other forums) who state we have our origin outside the balkans.

The fact that Albanian language have cognates with proto-romanian testifies of a close relation for a long period of time, ie Albanians have lived in a much larger area then today. Also, the huge influence of "innerland" Latin testifies that we have lived in the central regions also.

Or do you also condemn http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm for beeing a bad source? just accept the fact that you are intruders to kosovo, while we are indigenous.

The fact is, that there is no evidence of Serb existence in Kosovo before Stefan Nemanka starts to conquer towns in Kosovo.

[Guapo]

I don't care who was there first. Reality is that the region has become backwards, primitive and crime infested like east L.A. where no ethnicity wants to live there anymore which is why people leave for the diaspora.

[Ushtari]

I don't care who was there first. Reality is that the region has become backwards, primitive and crime infested like east L.A. where no ethnicity wants to live there anymore which is why people leave for the diaspora.

Yeah, cuz Serbia is a nordish welfare paradise, spare me your bullshit will ya?

[Osweo]

Well i understand how you Serbs must feel now when Facts are presented.
Outsiders reading this can see you're little more than a petty triumphalist. :rolleyes:

No matter what, Noel Malcolm is 1000 times more reliable then any of your sources
Childish... :rolleyes:

(wich btw are not from any serious historian nor linguist, but taken from other forums) who state we have our origin outside the balkans.
As far as I recall, NO Serb on this forum has repeated any of that nonsense linking you Shiptars with Caucasian Albania. I've seen discussion among Jugoslavs here on the deep ancestry of Montenegrin clans, for instance, where Albanian and Vlach influences have been discussed with complete openness and level-headedness.

The fact that Albanian language have cognates with proto-romanian testifies of a close relation for a long period of time, ie Albanians have lived in a much larger area then today.
Who here refutes that? Nobody. Stop trying to stir up bother where there is none.

Also, the huge influence of "innerland" Latin testifies that we have lived in the central regions also.
Curious...
How can Romance substrate in Albanian be so easily distinguished as 'inland' or 'coastal'? We have no examples of the Vulgar Latin that was once spoken around Sirmium, Singidunum or Naissus.

Or do you also condemn http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm for beeing a bad source? just accept the fact that you are intruders to kosovo, while we are indigenous.
More than a thousand years is QUITE enough time for an intruder to become a settled native with deep roots in a landscape. :rolleyes: You lose all credibility talking such bullshit.

The fact is, that there is no evidence of Serb existence in Kosovo before Stefan Nemanka starts to conquer towns in Kosovo.
So what? The Twelfth Century? That was fucking ages ago. There are parts of England that have been English for not much longer than that.

[Guapo]

Yeah, cuz Serbia is a nordish welfare paradise, spare me your bullshit will ya?

How's the weather in Switzerland?

[Ushtari]

As far as I recall, NO Serb on this forum has repeated any of that nonsense linking you Shiptars with Caucasian Albania. I've seen discussion among Jugoslavs here on the deep ancestry of Montenegrin clans, for instance, where Albanian and Vlach influences have been discussed with complete openness and level-headedness.

The reason a opened this thread is because a serb(Voinstvennyi) stated we(albanians) where occupying kosovo, when its proven that we are the indigenous inhabitants.



Curious...
How can Romance substrate in Albanian be so easily distinguished as 'inland' or 'coastal'? We have no examples of the Vulgar Latin that was once spoken around Sirmium, Singidunum or Naissus.


"The Latin influence over Albanian is of Eastern Romance origin, rather than of Dalmatian origin. This influence includes Latin words exhibiting idiomatic expressions and changes in meaning found only in Eastern Romance and not in other Romance languages.Adding to this the many words found in Romanian with Albanian cognates (see Eastern Romance substratum), it may be assumed that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time"

Appearently we have.

The latin wich has big influence in the Albanian language, is the same as in Romanian. This latin does not exist in Dalmatian, therefor is was a complete different dialect in the coast.


More than a thousand years is QUITE enough time for an intruder to become a settled native with deep roots in a landscape. :rolleyes: You lose all credibility talking such bullshit.

So what? The Twelfth Century? That was fucking ages ago. There are parts of England that have been English for not much longer than that.

So your point here is what exactly? yes kosovo belongs to who ever lives there, no doubt about that, but thats not really the point of this thread. Or do you mean that kosovo belongs to serbs only?

We all know why kosovo became independent, and thats not because of a historical reason, but due to serb behavior towards Albanians.

[Guapo]

We all know why kosovo became independent, and thats not because of a historical reason, but due to serb behavior towards Albanians.

The KLA attacked/ambushed Serb police on a constant basis, that's how it started.

[Osweo]

The reason a opened this thread is because a serb(Voinstvennyi) stated we(albanians) where occupying kosovo, when its proven that we are the indigenous inhabitants.
Serbs have been 'indigenous' there for more than a millennium too. I don't see you speaking out against the crimes commited against them. :coffee:

"The Latin influence over Albanian is of Eastern Romance origin, rather than of Dalmatian origin. This influence includes Latin words exhibiting idiomatic expressions and changes in meaning found only in Eastern Romance and not in other Romance languages.Adding to this the many words found in Romanian with Albanian cognates (see Eastern Romance substratum), it may be assumed that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time"

Appearently we have.

The latin wich has big influence in the Albanian language, is the same as in Romanian. This latin does not exist in Dalmatian, therefor is was a complete different dialect in the coast.
Okay now... Where was the border between Dalmatian Romance and the Eastern varieties? Probably around Montenegro, no?

I looked at some old linguistic maps, and saw that there were largish Vlach communities in what is now central western Albania. Were these Dalmatian speakers? I think not.

Ah, here we are;
Aromanian 10,000 in Albania (Salminen 1993). Ethnic population: Up to 400,000 in Albania. South, especially in Korçë, Lushnjë, Pernët, Gjirokastër, Sarandë, Berat, Durrës, Kavajë, and Tiranë. Alternate names: Armina, Aromunian, Arumanian, Arumun, Macedo Romanian, Macedo-Rumanian, Vlach. Classification: Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Eastern
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=albania
As you can see, it's unsurprising that Albanian should have elements of Eastern Balkan Romance in it, as Albanians still live among these Vlachs. This fact isn't particularly relevant to the Kosovo matter.

I do actually believe that Albanians have lived in Kosovo since Roman times, I never denied this. I just wish more respect was given to Serbians' long history in the province too.

So your point here is what exactly? yes kosovo belongs to who ever lives there, no doubt about that, but thats not really the point of this thread. Or do you mean that kosovo belongs to serbs only?
Don't you even have an Albanian name for the place? :confused:
Kosovo belongs to its traditional residents, the most significant of whom have been the Serbs for the last few centuries. I would have liked for the Albanians living there to have reached a more amicable arrangement with the Serb state, but when I see mosque after mosque popping up on European soil, I kind of lose any sympathy whatsoever.

We all know why kosovo became independent, and thats not because of a historical reason, but due to serb behavior towards Albanians.
Only an idiot reading this would believe that only ONE side has crimes on its hands. Unfortunately, our world is run by swine who rely on the prevalence of idiots... :rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

Can someone move this Kosovo-related thread to the Serb section please ?
Kosovo Je Srbija.

[Bari]

I do actually believe that Albanians have lived in Kosovo since Roman times, I never denied this. I just wish more respect was given to Serbians' long history in the province too.


- Thats what i was getting at. As there seemed to be misconception among some of when Albanian arrived in Kosovo. My point was and is, Albanians have lived there a long time. Which means that regardless of who has been controlling the area politically in time of history, are just as entitled as Serbs to live there. Many towns have Serbian names yes. They controlled the land for quite a while and such influence is natural then. Both sides have long history there, and i don't seriously think either side can claim entire Kosovo on their own. Just what i wanted to point out in this discussion.

[poiuytrewq0987]

- Thats what i was getting at. As there seemed to be misconception among some of when Albanian arrived in Kosovo. My point was and is, Albanians have lived there a long time. Which means that regardless of who has been controlling the area politically in time of history, are just as entitled as Serbs to live there. Many towns have Serbian names yes. They controlled the land for quite a while and such influence is natural then. Both sides have long history there, and i don't seriously think either side can claim entire Kosovo on their own. Just what i wanted to point out in this discussion.

Firstly, if any of Illyrians lived in Kosovo, it's clear they didn't have a very large impact on the region compared to Serbia who had made the land wholly Serbian. Secondly. In a proper world, Albania and Serbia were to duke it out and Milosevic had his way, you'd been kicked out of Kosovo a long time ago and probably northern Albania would've been annexed to Srbija/Jugoslavija.

[Bari]

Firstly, if any of Illyrians lived in Kosovo, it's clear they didn't have a very large impact on the region compared to Serbia who had made the land wholly Serbian. Secondly. In a proper world, Albania and Serbia were to duke it out and Milosevic had his way, you'd been kicked out of Kosovo a long time ago and probably northern Albania would've been annexed to Srbija/Jugoslavija.

- You don't have a clue as usual. If you did you would already know Montenegro has annexed much territory of Northern Albania in 1880. Areas where Montenegrins never was a majority nor had any cultural/political impact before a treaty signed in the West handed it over to them. Much of Northern Albania would have been handed over including my home commune, was it not for the ressistance made by the Prizren league and the thousands of volunteers giving aide to defend the motherland.

Little impact made you say by Illyrians? There would still have been, and many other places in the Balkans, was it not for the aggressive assimilation and slavification process performed by your ancestors. Going by your logic there was virtually nothing excisting in regions now inhabitated by Slavs before the Slavic migrations since there are so few impacts left from other people...

[Bari]

Can someone move this Kosovo-related thread to the Serb section please ?

- So in your opinion Albanians don't even have the right to open threads and discuss this in our section regarding a region we have historical presence?


Kosovo Je Srbija.

- Thats your opinion. A shouting contest involving one-liner slogans and "its mine! NO MINE" is hardly the purpose of this thread, but whether or not Albanians are indigenous as well and have a right to live there. Whos right it is to control it is another discussion.

And i have no problem discussing that as well. But i'd appreciate more elaborations. I don't mind outsiders voicing their opinion on this conflict, but it would be nice if they elaborated their views instead of appearing like puppets to popular opinions on preservationist boards. Osweo for example is appereantly pro-Serb in his stance, but it doesn't stop him from making reflective and well-articulated posts on the subject. And also not being entirely blindfolded in his view by simply dismissing Albanians regardless of facts.

I don't think it would be much appreciated either if i started involving myself in disputes between Germans and Poles typing "SILESIA BELONG TO POLAND!"
withouth even elaborating why i think so.
First of all, becuse the conflict is not really conserning me. And second of all because any outsider entering a heated topic should show some sensibilty and knowledge on a subject before trying to lecture either part on whats right.

[Guapo]

was it not for the aggressive assimilation and slavification process performed by your ancestors.

Serb clans were Albanized as well, which is why there are blonde Albanians.

[Bari]

Serb clans were Albanized as well and you know it, which is why there are blonde Albanians.

- Are you suggesting any fair complexioned Albanian is a result of Albanized Serbs? Thats ridicilous.Blondness was not brought to the Balkans by the Slavs. And Albanians as well have been assimilated by Slavs(Montenegro...). There are blond Albanians from tribes that have not mixed with Slavs as well.

Unless you have any sources proving Albanians were originally all dark complexioned. Fair complexioned people have excisted in theese regions long before. Or do you think all Ancient Greeks were dark complexioned as well?

[Foxy]

Look, solidariety to an other white people who passes for negroid.
Albania in Latin means "the white land". Romans didn't have such fantasy: the called a lot of cities "Alba...", Alba Fucens, Alba Adriatica, Alba Longa...
Great Britain was called "Albia" too, for its white rocks.
In Italian the language spoken by Albaneses minorances is called Arbereshe.
My question is: are Albaneses slavs?

I have never understood it.

[Bari]

Look, solidariety to an other white people who passes for negroid.
Albania in Latin means "the white land". Romans didn't have such fantasy: the called a lot of cities "Alba...", Alba Fucens, Alba Adriatica, Alba Longa...
Great Britain was called "Albia" too, for its white rocks.
In Italian the language spoken by Albaneses minorances is called Arbereshe.
My question is: are Albaneses slavs?

I have never understood it.

- The Arbëreshë group in Italy are descendants of Christian Albanians that fled from Albania after being finally defeated by the Ottomans, and were offered shelter by various Italian lords/kings. Shqipëria is the right term, land of the eagles. Also explaining the double-headed eagle in our flag. We are not Slavs, although there have been assimilated Slavs and Greek through the course of history. It was centuries ago such assimilations took place in any large scale, and it has never been to an extent that Albanians can be considered Slavs. Just like other people in Europe there are a few foreign elements that can be found. But unlike the rest of Europe we still have remained a strong tribal system, which makes it easy to know which tribe has absorbed elements because each tribe has a history and recorded events that has been passed down for generations. The Hoti tribe is one example, but they have mixed with other Albanian tribes for so long i don't know whether it would be relevant today.

[poiuytrewq0987]

- You don't have a clue as usual. If you did you would already know Montenegro has annexed much territory of Northern Albania in 1880. Areas where Montenegrins never was a majority nor had any cultural/political impact before a treaty signed in the West handed it over to them. Much of Northern Albania would have been handed over including my home commune, was it not for the ressistance made by the Prizren league and the thousands of volunteers giving aide to defend the motherland.

You're a mentally challenged cunt. Northern Albania would go to Srbija, why? Because we'd be at war with you, not Montenegro, you dimwit.


Little impact made you say by Illyrians? There would still have been, and many other places in the Balkans, was it not for the aggressive assimilation and slavification process performed by your ancestors. Going by your logic there was virtually nothing excisting in regions now inhabitated by Slavs before the Slavic migrations since there are so few impacts left from other people...Hahaha, Illyrians was never a serious ethnic group. They were conquered by the Greeks, Romans and later the Slavs. You guys are the niggers of Europe, deal with it. The only and only one reason why Albania is even independent today is because you have NATO bootlickers to protect you from Greece and Serbia.

[Äike]

Illyrians(genetical and cultural ancestors of Albanians) were in the Balkan area before the Slavs, end of story.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Illyrians(genetical and cultural ancestors of Albanians) were in the Balkan area before the Slavs, end of story.

The original Illyrians were nothing more than tribes who were Romanized during the Roman period. There is no reason why we should take Albanians seriously as an ethnic group for they are the largest peddlers, traffickers and smugglers in Europe. Not to mention they've managed to set up a second Muslim state in Europe, Kosovo; Albania being the first. In addition, over 500,000 Albanians live in Turkey which goes to show how much they love Islam and Turks.

[Osweo]

Voin, you're just embarrassing yourself, and harming your people's cause in the process. :tsk: Reread Tonsor's post #23 and try not to act like a vulgar caricature of a Serb who might as well have been taken from a Hollywood film.... :....

I am more than aware of how most Albanians are not of Tonsor's standard of sensibility and courtesy, and how all too many are as bad as Somalis even, but dismissing them all as the same as the latter only makes you look a fool. Adding pseudohistory and downright idiocy to your posts does it all the more.

[Nodens]

This debate is largely pointless, Kosovo is 90%+ Albanian and will remain so for the foreseeable future absent mass expulsions/ethnic cleansing.

[The Ripper]

Speaking of Hollywood Serbs, you guys should see The Hunting Party. It was so bad I had to quit watching half-way, when I realized "this is as good as it gets."

4_y9_WuUIr4

Voin, from now on, you're The Fox. :D

[Ushtari]

Okay now... Where was the border between Dalmatian Romance and the Eastern varieties? Probably around Montenegro, no?

I looked at some old linguistic maps, and saw that there were largish Vlach communities in what is now central western Albania. Were these Dalmatian speakers? I think not.

Ah, here we are;
Aromanian 10,000 in Albania (Salminen 1993). Ethnic population: Up to 400,000 in Albania. South, especially in Korçë, Lushnjë, Pernët, Gjirokastër, Sarandë, Berat, Durrës, Kavajë, and Tiranë. Alternate names: Armina, Aromunian, Arumanian, Arumun, Macedo Romanian, Macedo-Rumanian, Vlach. Classification: Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Eastern
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=albania
As you can see, it's unsurprising that Albanian should have elements of Eastern Balkan Romance in it, as Albanians still live among these Vlachs. This fact isn't particularly relevant to the Kosovo matter.

"Many words found in Romanian with Albanian cognates (see Eastern Romance substratum), it may be assumed that Romanians and Albanians lived in close proximity at one time. Generally, the areas where this might have happened are considered to be regions varying from Transylvania, what is now Eastern Serbia (the region around Naissus and the Morava valley), Kosovo and Northern Albania."

"Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life."


"Most likely the earliest contact was between the Proto-Romanians and Proto-Albanians, (1st century - 5th century AD) this theory being supported by the Albanian vocabulary borrowed from Balkan Latin, as well as the Romanian substrate, which has words cognate to Albanian words. The exact area where contact occurred is under debate, ranging from Northern Albania to Transylvania. All Romanian varieties (from the Republic of Moldova to the Vlachs of Serbia) are part of the sprachbund, which shows that the contact happened before they diverged."

Subrastum words shows that Albanian and proto-romanian, ie before they adopted the Latin, was the same language or close related. Albanian have lived in close relation with romanians/vlachs for a long period of time.

The vlachs spread out in 9th century, therefor the connection with proto-romanians happened earlier since we share cognates.

We(albanians) do not deny Serb cultural heritage in Kosovo, its Serbs who deny Albanian present and cultural heritage in Kosovo.

[Aramis]

Speaking of Hollywood Serbs, you guys should see The Hunting Party. It was so bad I had to quit watching half-way, when I realized "this is as good as it gets."

Horrible movie indeed. Serbs are portrayed as ruthless monsters, and Bosniaks as some kind of middle-eastern fez wearing offshoot doing nothing all day long but smoking water pipe.

I can't wait to see Angelina Jolie's masterpiece (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1714209/)!

[Raikaswinþs]

Kosovo was part of the region of the Dardani. Located at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone, their identification as either Illyrian or Thracian tribe is uncertain. In my opinion, most ethnic Albanians of today's Kosovo are descents of these people, trough their assimilation by the different dominant cultures that have passed the region throughout time.

Hence, yes, the Kosovar are the original inhabitants of Kosovo. This said, the minorities in the region, such as the Serbian, are equally legitimate natives to the land, and , in the future state of Kosovo, it is a need that these minorities are respected and integrated without being assimilated or destroyed (as it has been the case in the region in sadly more than one occasion. Kosovo, right now, is a hell of a mess, but a future in peace is possible.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Voin, you're just embarrassing yourself, and harming your people's cause in the process. :tsk: Reread Tonsor's post #23 and try not to act like a vulgar caricature of a Serb who might as well have been taken from a Hollywood film.... :....

I am more than aware of how most Albanians are not of Tonsor's standard of sensibility and courtesy, and how all too many are as bad as Somalis even, but dismissing them all as the same as the latter only makes you look a fool. Adding pseudohistory and downright idiocy to your posts does it all the more.

Facts can be harsh, I know.

[Guapo]

Illyrians(genetical and cultural ancestors of Albanians) were in the Balkan area before the Slavs, end of story.

Your dislike for everything Slavic and non-nordic is becoming repetitive and mundane, platitudinous. I blow smoke in your face.

[Radojica]

No,they are not and as long as there are Serbs and Orthodox medieval monasteries and churches under UNESCO protection you Albanians will have to accept that fact. If you dont like it,destroy it,kill them all after EU stop sending you money and food you go back to your family busnisses,selling drugs,human organs and humans,something in which you are especially good :thumbs:! Until that moment come,Kosovo je Srbija!

[Ushtari]

No,they are not and as long as there are Serbs and Orthodox medieval monasteries and churches under UNESCO protection you Albanians will have to accept that fact. If you dont like it,destroy it,kill them all after EU stop sending you money and food you go back to your family busnisses,selling drugs,human organs and humans,something in which you are especially good :thumbs:! Until that moment come,Kosovo je Srbija!

:)

And as usual, you dont have any source or anything wich indicate it:)

[Äike]

Your dislike for everything Slavic and non-nordic is becoming repetitive and mundane, platitudinous. I blow smoke in your face.

I do not dislike Slavs. The only Slavic individuals I dislike, are the Russian immigrants in my country. I do not have any bad feelings towards Poles, Slovaks, Slovenes, Serbians, Bulgarians etc. If you're not a HIV-sick Russian, who mugs people to get money for drugs and lives in Narva or Tallinn, then I'm completely neutral towards you.

Isn't it a known fact that Slavic languages are quite recent in the Balkan area and they assimilated the native Illyrian people?

[Radojica]

:)

And as usual, you dont have any source or anything wich indicate it:)

Source? Yellow house in Northern Albania for trafficing with human organs of killed Serbs, heroin in Europe you are getting from Turks and which goes through Kosovo,Veliki Trnovac village where is distribution center, Albanian mafia is famous in Europe for human trafficing,go to Pećka patrijaršija monastery and on one of the churches there you can see the date when it was made:1261. So,for there is a source for everything i mentioned,those are my eyes and CIA,BIA,DIA,FBI reports,a whole bunch of investigation and docs based on those investigations :). Another story is that US is denying all of that because they are in the bussiness too,so its not surprising at all.

[Ushtari]

Source? Yellow house in Northern Albania for trafficing with human organs of killed Serbs, heroin in Europe you are getting from Turks and which goes through Kosovo,Veliki Trnovac village where is distribution center, Albanian mafia is famous in Europe for human trafficing,go to Pećka patrijaršija monastery and on one of the churches there you can see the date when it was made:1261. So,for there is a source for everything i mentioned,those are my eyes and CIA,BIA,DIA,FBI reports,a whole bunch of investigation and docs based on those investigations :). Another story is that US is denying all of that because they are in the bussiness too,so its not surprising at all.

Why cant you stick to the topic?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Kosovo never had a defined majority until we came to the region and settled it and thoroughly Serbianized the region. Kosovo is hardly Albanian/Illyrian/whatever at all today. It is Serbian and it will remain so.

[Guapo]

Isn't it a known fact that Slavic languages are quite recent in the Balkan area and they assimilated the native Illyrian people?

Germanic bullshit propaganda from the 18th century. Here are some excerpts of Dr. Mario Alinei’s study concerning the Slavic populations in the Balkans. It is congruent with Dr.Florin Curta’s conclusions about the invention of the “arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans”.

“I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the ‘arrival’ of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times.”

“Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs… because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands.”

“The surmised ‘Slavic migration’ is full of inconsistencies. There is no ‘northern Slavic language’, it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic… The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic… and connected with Anatolia… Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age… The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture… agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs… The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven…].

[Osweo]

Germanic bullshit propaganda from the 18th century. ...
Guapo, that's crap, it really is. I'm English, and have no bias for or against, like an Austro-Hungarian might, and yet, to me, the old scheme is the only sensible one at all. :rolleyes:

Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, linguistics and history in the east have been the victim of all manner of absurd opportunists and frauds. This is one of them.

[Guapo]

Guapo, that's crap, it really is. I'm English, and have no bias for or against, like an Austro-Hungarian might, and yet, to me, the old scheme is the only sensible one at all. :rolleyes:

Ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall, linguistics and history in the east have been the victim of all manner of absurd opportunists and frauds. This is one of them.

So are you saying that you do not concur with teh great Dr. Mario Alinei’s study and Dr.Florin Curta’s conclusions?

[Ushtari]

So are you saying that you do not concur with teh great Dr. Mario Alinei’s study and Dr.Florin Curta’s conclusions?

How can it be germanic bullshit propaganda, when its commonly known that slavs entered Balkans between 600's-800's?

[Guapo]

How can it be germanic bullshit propaganda, when its commonly known that slavs entered Balkans between 600's-800's?

Were you there to witness it? I think not.

[Ushtari]

Were you there to witness it? I think not.

Ehh, there is no source of slavs in balkan before that time, so i dont really see your point.

[Guapo]

Ehh, there is no source of slavs in balkan before that time, so i dont really see your point.

Ehh, eat shit.

[Ushtari]

Ehh, eat shit.

;)

[Guapo]

;)

:eyes

[Monolith]

Little impact made you say by Illyrians? There would still have been, and many other places in the Balkans, was it not for the aggressive assimilation and slavification process performed by your ancestors.
The Illyrians were already gone when the ancient Slavs came here, so they couldn't have been Slavicized. Also, the assimilation of Romanized and Hellenized native Balkanic populations into different Slavic tribes was very slow and succeeded not because of forceful Slavicization and genocide but because the Slavic idioms were prestigious as they were de facto official language(s) in newly formed Slavic principalities, hence the natives were not only pressed by their new circumstances (being outnumbered) to learn the Slavic language but they also wanted to learn it.

Illyrians(genetical and cultural ancestors of Albanians) were in the Balkan area before the Slavs, end of story.
'Illyrian' is a very vague term. Ancient Greeks referred to virtually all their northern neighbors as 'Illyrians'.


Isn't it a known fact that Slavic languages are quite recent in the Balkan area and they assimilated the native Illyrian people?
Vast majority of the indigenous Illyrians were Romanized and pacified by the Roman Empire long before the Slavs came. Thus, they were no longer Illyrians but Vlachs.

[Ushtari]

The Illyrians were already gone when the ancient Slavs came here, so they couldn't have been Slavicized. Also, the assimilation of Romanized and Hellenized native Balkanic populations into different Slavic tribes was very slow and succeeded not because of forceful Slavicization and genocide but because the Slavic idioms were prestigious as they were de facto official language(s) in newly formed Slavic principalities, hence the natives were not only pressed by their new circumstances (being outnumbered) to learn the Slavic language but they also wanted to learn it.

'Illyrian' is a very vague term. Ancient Greeks referred to virtually all their northern neighbors as 'Illyrians'.

Vast majority of the indigenous Illyrians were Romanized and pacified by the Roman Empire long before the Slavs came. Thus, they were no longer Illyrians but Vlachs.


"Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however--including modern Albania--averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue."

"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one."


"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."

Nationbuilding in the Balkans (http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm)
:rolleyes:

[Monolith]

Nationbuilding in the Balkans (http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm)
:rolleyes:
Sorry, but you posted a link to some site that has nothing to do with historical studies, nor does it cite any sources.

[Aramis]

'Illyrian' is a very vague term. Ancient Greeks referred to virtually all their northern neighbors as 'Illyrians'.

Say what? Even Estonians you mean? Well, well...

[Ushtari]

Sorry, but you posted a link to some site that has nothing to do with historical studies, nor does it cite any sources.

No my friend, there is nothing wrong with my source, if you have questions regarding the study, then ask Chicago-Kent Collage of Law & institute of technology. The big question here is if you can provide any source to prove your statements.

[Aramis]

No my friend, there is nothing wrong with my source, if you have questions regarding the study, then ask Chicago-Kent Collage of Law & institute of technology. The big question here is if you can provide any source to prove your statements.

As Monolith already stated, they have nothing to do with historical studies wich eliminates it therefor as a reliable source in regards to our discussion. It's focused on a complete other field, and simply gives a short historical introduction for better understatement of the whole matter.
As there is no source for such data it might as well be a lie or half-truth, and certainly does not contribute to your argumentation.

[Guapo]

Say what? Even Estonians you mean? Well, well...

Yes, Karl is Illyrian. Hakuna matata.

[Ushtari]

As Monolith already stated, they have nothing to do with historical studies wich eliminates it therefor as a reliable source in regards to our discussion. It's focused on a complete other field, and simply gives a short historical introduction for better understatement of the whole matter. As there is no source for such data it might as well be a lie, however it certainly is no worth for your argumentation.

But still, you have not provided any source to prove your statements, therefor my source is more reliable then your guesses.

As my source say in the beginning:

"The origins of the Albanian people are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the
conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that
the latter were natives of the lands they inhabited. Similarly, the Albanian language
derives from the language of the Illyrians, the transition from Illyrian to Albanian
apparently occurring between the 4th and 6th centuries AD."

Ie we dont have any ancient illyrian writings, therefor we can never prove our relation to them. However, our language testifies that we are the indigenous inhabitants.

Also, what do you have to say against this:

"According to the central hypothesis of a project undertaken by the Austrian Science Fund FWF, Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages. Intensive research now aims to confirm this theory. This little-known language is being researched using all available texts before a comparison with other Balkan languages is carried out. The outcome of this work will include the compilation of a lexicon providing an overview of all Old Albanian verbs."
http://www.fwf.ac.at/en/public_relations/press/pv200805-en.html

Is this a bad source also?

[Ushtari]

As Monolith already stated, they have nothing to do with historical studies wich eliminates it therefor as a reliable source in regards to our discussion. It's focused on a complete other field, and simply gives a short historical introduction for better understatement of the whole matter.
As there is no source for such data it might as well be a lie or half-truth, and certainly does not contribute to your argumentation.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/129453/History?anchor=ref476150 :thumb001:

Now, what did you say about my sources?

[Aramis]

But still, you have not provided any source to prove your statements, therefor my source is more reliable then your guesses.

I'm not providing anything, as I have no opinion on it. It simply was a clarification of Mono's post.

Anyway, speaking of links, here is one:

http://makedonika.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/slavs-are-indigenous-in-the-balkans/


"The origins of the Albanian people are not definitely known, but data drawn from history and from linguistic, archaeological, and anthropological studies have led to the

What studies? Names, authors, years??? etc.


conclusion that Albanians are the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians and that

This wasn't denied here from what I've read. Yet, another 800 hundret year long undeniable fact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyricum_%28Roman_province%29) tell's us that there were no tirbes (or prehaps with some exceptions, who again prove the rule) wich could have been identified as Illyric (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/IllyrianTribes.jpg) (i.e. an identity existing prior to the Roman conquest) in the western Balkans at the time of the Slavic arrival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Interaction_with_the_Balkan_population ).

[Aramis]

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/129453/History?anchor=ref476150 :thumb001:

Now, what did you say about my sources?

Terrific!

What about this part?


Some scholars, however, dispute such theses, arguing that Illyrians were not autochthonous to Albania and that Albanian derives from a dialect of the now-extinct Thracian language.

Are you able to make a distinction between culture, language, tribal affiliations and a bloodline?

[Ushtari]

Terrific!

What about this part?



Originally Posted by Britannica
Some scholars, however, dispute such theses, arguing that Illyrians were not autochthonous to Albania and that Albanian derives from a dialect of the now-extinct Thracian language.

This only confirm what i just said. There is no historian or linguists doubting that we are the indigenous inhabitants, whats being discussed is from what ancient balkan people we are descendents of, if its Illyrians, Thracians or Dacians. But when speaking of very old history you have to go after logical theories, and most historians and linguists agree that we are descendents of illyrians(most probably ofc).

[Monolith]

But still, you have not provided any source to prove your statements
Any history book will do, I think. Your link states that e.g. Illyrians were assimilated by Slavs in Croatia and Slovenia, which is ludicrous because they were already long gone there.


Ie we dont have any ancient illyrian writings, therefor we can never prove our relation to them. However, our language testifies that we are the indigenous inhabitants.
Your language suggests that your ancestors lived somewhere inland, which is a bit odd because the Illyrians were supposedly hardcore seafaring raiders, and yet your contemporary language lacks any original terms pertaining to the sea. Also, you have a myriad of Latin and Slavic loanwords, but very few loanwords from Greek, and your ancestors had supposedly lived in the Greek cultural sphere for millennia.


Also, what do you have to say against this:

"According to the central hypothesis of a project undertaken by the Austrian Science Fund FWF, Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages. Intensive research now aims to confirm this theory. This little-known language is being researched using all available texts before a comparison with other Balkan languages is carried out. The outcome of this work will include the compilation of a lexicon providing an overview of all Old Albanian verbs."
http://www.fwf.ac.at/en/public_relations/press/pv200805-en.html

Very interesting, though it just confirms what was already known, that Albanian is a member of the Balkan sprachbund.


Yet, another 800 hundret year long tell's us that there were no tirbes (or prehaps with some exceptions, who again prove the rule) wich could have been identified as (i.e. an identity existing prior to the Roman conquest) in the western Balkans at the time of the Slavic arrival.
True, though some vague notion of Illyrian identity persisted in the region centuries after the Slavs came, but, curiously enough, among the Slavs and not among the Albanians. Although I suspect it was some sort of territorial designation rather than a notion of descent from some local ancestral population.

[Aramis]

True, though some vague notion of Illyrian identity persisted in the region centuries after the Slavs came, but, curiously enough, among the Slavs and not among the Albanians. Although I suspect it was some sort of territorial designation rather than a notion of descent from some local ancestral population.

I wouldn't know myself, that's why I suggested they might have been some exceptions. Going by logics though, it rather seems like a terriotrial designation to me too.

It's time to post this picture again! :D

http://www.crohis.com/hacquets/slaveni.JPG

[Guapo]

I wouldn't know myself, that's why I suggested they might have been some exceptions. Going by logics though, it rather seems like a terriotrial designation to me too.

Hundreds of years ago there were no theories of Slavs migrating to the Balkans or stories passed down from generations of our ancestors flocking down south so people thought we, and truly are, descended from the ancient Illyrians, not Albanians.

I know of one story about the "Great Sea"(Veliko More/Pannonian Sea) that disappeared and allowed our people to move south but that would have been hundreds of thousands of years ago.

[Guapo]

http://www.crohis.com/hacquets/slaveni.JPG

They look like "Yugoslavs" not nordic Albanian supermen.

[Aramis]

They look like "Yugoslavs" not nordic Albanian supermen.

It is afterall from a sketchbook of a German who travaled through Croatia, Dalmatia, Hercegovina, Rascia etc. No Albanians there. I wouldn't know whom he considered to be Illyrians though. Inhabitans of Croatia I guess, going by the moustache :D

http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/fotogallery/povjesne_odore/big_pictures/Br.%2027/Hrvat.jpg

[Guapo]

Yea, I guess the Croats are the true descendants of Illyrians.

[Ushtari]

Your language suggests that your ancestors lived somewhere inland, which is a bit odd because the Illyrians were supposedly hardcore seafaring raiders, and yet your contemporary language lacks any original terms pertaining to the sea.

You statement does not in any way contradicts the illyran-albanian theory, since illyrians lived in the central regions also. Where they hardcore seafaring raiders to?


"while the words for plants and animals characteristic of mountainous regions are entirely original, the names for fish and for agricultural activities (such as ploughing) are borrowed from other languages"

Ie words like forrest, mountain, Animal and similar are not loanwords, they have been preserved in Albanian since ancient times. Many of these ancient words are from the paleobalkan language.

"But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs



Also, you have a myriad of Latin and Slavic loanwords, but very few loanwords from Greek, and your ancestors had supposedly lived in the Greek cultural sphere for millennia

"The earliest loanwords attested in Albanian are from Doric Greek while the heaviest influence was that of Latin."

The earliest loanwords are from Droric Greek. The fact that we later became influenced by Latin, testifies that Latin have been dominated later. Have you forgot that Illyria belonged to the Roman empire for hundreds of years? Also, you are wrong when you say that illyrians where dominated by greek culture. If you read about the jerick line wich devided latin with greek, you can see it goes in central Albania. According to you, there was no illyrians other then in south-albania, but thats not the case. Therefor illyrians have not been affected by greeks that much.


Very interesting, though it just confirms what was already known, that Albanian is a member of the Balkan sprachbund.
You have totaly misunderstood the text, since it clearly says:

"Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages"

This mean the Albanian language have been spoken in a much larger area then today, how els would we have influenced the development of other balkan language?

[Monolith]

You statement does not in any way contradicts the illyran-albanian theory, since illyrians lived in the central regions also.
Of course not. That would just imply that the seafaring Illyrians were completely Romanized.


Ie words like forrest, mountain, Animal and similar are not loanwords, they have been preserved in Albanian since ancient times. Many of these ancient words are from the paleobalkan language.
There were many paleobalkanic languages, not just one.


"But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries."
Good points.


"The earliest loanwords attested in Albanian are from Doric Greek while the heaviest influence was that of Latin."
I said there are very few words in Albanian borrowed from Greek, without ever mentioning exactly when they were borrowed.


The fact that we later became influenced by Latin, testifies that Latin have been dominated later.
Ummm, what? Ever heard of the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire?


Have you forgot that Illyria belonged to the Roman empire for hundreds of years?
Sure, hence the Latin loanwords. Which in turn would put your ancestral population somewhere in the mountains slightly north of Jireček line (i.e. away from constant Greek influence), and away from what you claim is your ancient territory.


Also, you are wrong when you say that illyrians where dominated by greek culture. If you read about the jerick line wich devided latin with greek, you can see it goes in central Albania. According to you, there was no illyrians other then in south-albania, but thats not the case. Therefor illyrians have not been affected by greeks that much.
You're assuming here that northern Illyrians fled en masse from central Illyricum into what is now Albania (as they had little to do with Greeks).

Truth is, Illyrian tribes north of Jireček line (i.e. in Croatia and Bosnia) were so thoroughly Romanized (new Roman forts, road systems, colonies, permanent presence of Roman troops etc.) that it's simply ludicrous to claim any of them managed to avoid Romanization. If the Illyrians managed to preserve their way of life, they did it somewhere on the Southern or Southeastern fringes of Illyricum, away from Roman civilization and military might.


You have totaly misunderstood the text, since it clearly says:

"Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages"
First of all, what significant influence? Which Balkan languages etc.? And second, you read too much into the text as it clearly states it's just a theory.


This mean the Albanian language have been spoken in a much larger area then today, how els would we have influenced the development of other balkan language?
Perhaps its older form was simply spoken somewhere else in the Balkans during the antiquity, like closer to Thracian?

[Ushtari]

Sure, hence the Latin loanwords. Which in turn would put your ancestral population somewhere in the mountains slightly north of Jireček line (i.e. away from constant Greek influence), and away from what you claim is your ancient territory.
By this you mean what exactly? our ancient territory is Illyricum, wich goes all they way to Slovenia. However, the ones who survived the invasions, was those in south-illyricum. ironically, today 2010 there is a people living in south-illyria who speak a paleobalkan language.


"What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of
northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the
survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs."
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs

"in Greek areas... Latin was the dominant language in inscriptions recording public works, on milestones, and in the army."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_Line


You're assuming here that northern Illyrians fled en masse from central Illyricum into what is now Albania (as they had little to do with Greeks).
No, but those illyrians(Albanians) who survived(most of them), was those who lived north of the jerick line, therefor the lack of greek vocabulary(compared to latin). Majority of Albanians speak "Gheg" dialect, while those in south-Albania speak Tosk, wich is more influenced by Greek.

The fact that we have ancient Greek loanwords, ie from Doric Greek, testifies that we had close relation with these Greeks. Ie proto-albanians have lived in a larger area, but it was at the mountains in the northern part where Albanians was pushed up, where they lived isolated and became Albanians. You make it sound like we have little-close to nothing amount of Greek loanwords, thats not true, we have much influence from Greeks, but most from Latin.


Truth is, Illyrian tribes north of Jireček line (i.e. in Croatia and Bosnia) were so thoroughly Romanized (new Roman forts, road systems, colonies, permanent presence of Roman troops etc.) that it's simply ludicrous to claim any of them managed to avoid Romanization. If the Illyrians managed to preserve their way of life, they did it somewhere on the Southern or Southeastern fringes of Illyricum, away from Roman civilization and military might.
Wrong, Albanians survived in latin-dominated areas, just due to isolation at high-altitudes living as sheepherders. Those who lived in cities spoke Latin and became later romanians and vlachs. If vlachs would have lived at the mountains, they would most probably preservd their language, insted of adopting latin. If all albanians would have lived at big cities around roman main roads, the albanian language would also become a latin language.

"But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs


First of all, what significant influence? Which Balkan languages etc.? And second, you read too much into the text as it clearly states it's just a theory.
Well dont ask me, but ask Dr. Stefan Schumacher or Mag. Stefan Bernhardt. This research is assumed to be completed at the end of this year:thumbs up

[Monolith]

our ancient territory is Illyricum, wich goes all they way to Slovenia.
Like I said, the term 'Illyrian' was a vague Greek designation for their northern neighbors. There is no proof whatsoever that they spoke a single language or that they regarded themselves as one folk. So it pretty much insane to claim all that territory while basing that on some ancient and ill-defined collective name for a group of tribes.


However, the ones who survived the invasions, was those in south-illyricum.
..which is exactly what I said in my last post. :D


"What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of
northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the
survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs."
Maybe, but if this is true than the Albanian cultural influence in Kosovo was minor or negligible as the overwhelming majority of toponyms, hydronyms etc. in the region is Slavic.


"in Greek areas... Latin was the dominant language in inscriptions recording public works, on milestones, and in the army."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jire%C4%8Dek_Line
Please don't quote wikipedia. ;) I haven't insulted you with something I said, have I?


No, but those illyrians(Albanians) who survived(most of them), was those who lived north of the jerick line, therefor the lack of greek vocabulary(compared to latin).
..which is again exactly what I said.


Majority of Albanians speak "Gheg" dialect, while those in south-Albania speak Tosk, wich is more influenced by Greek.
Your dialects aren't relevant here, as they formed long after the handful of ancient Greek loanwords had entered Albanian.


The fact that we have ancient Greek loanwords, ie from Doric Greek, testifies that we had close relation with these Greeks.
Nope. It most certainly does not. The few ancient Greek loanwords you have testify quite the opposite, actually.


You make it sound like we have little-close to nothing amount of Greek loanwords, thats not true, we have much influence from Greeks, but most from Latin.
That is because you have only twenty or so ancient words borrowed from Greek. Given the Greek influence, culture, colonies and commerce, that number is very, very low. Almost negligible.

So no, you do not have much influence from Greeks.


If vlachs would have lived at the mountains, they would most probably preservd their language, insted of adopting latin.
Vlachs did live in the mountains, and they spoke a Romance language.


Well dont ask me, but ask Dr. Stefan Schumacher or Mag. Stefan Bernhardt. This research is assumed to be completed at the end of this year:thumbs up
Why posting something you don't understand?

[Monolith]

Here's an interesting text on the subject:



Vladimir Georgiev (The Slavonic and East European Review 44, no. 103, 1960, pp. 285-297)

VIII. Albanians and Rumanians

Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.

But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.

Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:

Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftë

Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.

7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.

The above arguments are well known, but they have not been regarded as sufficient for a definitive solution of the problem. The most important fact to be revealed has been the separation of Daco-Mysian from Thracian. It has thus been established that the phonemic system of Albanian is descended directly from the Daco-Mysian.

Let us consider some examples. The most typical features of the historical phonology of Albanian are attested in Daco-Mysian. Besides, in Daco-Mysian there also appear the intermediate phonetic changes that explain the peculiar phonetic development of Albanian. Here are some samples:

IE Daco-Mysian Albanian
e ie je
() > > o o
> o o
> ö > e e
> ü y, i
ew e e
aw a a
ri ri
a a

Examples:

IE e > D.-M. ie:
a Dacian tribe is named , but a Thracian one .
Dacian PN Diegis from IE dhegwwh-.
Dacian river name from IE *erðs-.
Dacian word dielina 'Bilsenkraut' from IE *dhel-.

IE > D.-M. > > o:
IE *dhw > D.-M. dva > dva > dova, cf. Pulpudeva (4th century b.c.), Buridava (1st century a.d.), Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.).

IE > oi > ö > e:
Salmor-ude 'Salt Water', a salt lake in Scythia Minor, in Greek called 'Salt (Lake)' and in Latin palus Salameir; Dacian ude from IE *udo(r) 'water'.
(2nd century a.d.) > Pelendova (after the 4th century a.d.) from *pl-m *dhew 'Stutt-gart', cf. Alb. pelë 'mare'.

IE > oi (= ü) > ü (i):
, Moesi, Mysi.

In this way it has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.

Rumanian and Albanian took shape in the Daco-Mysian region;

Rumanian represents a completely Romanised Daco-Mysian and Albanian a semi-Romanised Daco-Mysian.

I'm guessing Mysian is an alternate spelling for Moesian. Also, if this speculation is true it would put the Albanians' ancestors somewhere in the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone.

[Radojica]

396VfgRH8Uw

:coffee:

[Ushtari]

Like I said, the term 'Illyrian' was a vague Greek designation for their northern neighbors. There is no proof whatsoever that they spoke a single language or that they regarded themselves as one folk. So it pretty much insane to claim all that territory while basing that on some ancient and ill-defined collective name for a group of tribes.
You can call them what you want, it still does not change the fact our original home is right there, wich according to sources are called illyrians.

"From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/129453/History?anchor=ref476150


..which is exactly what I said in my last post. :D
Dardania and north-albania is south-illyria. I know where your point is, you think that we should have more greek loanwords, but thats not the case, since northern-albania and kosovo is above the jerick line but still south-illyria.


which is again exactly what I said.
No because you dont seem to understand that north-albania, kosovo and montenegro is north of the jerick-line. These areas are assumed to be affected by latin and not much from Greek. Its these areas wich is believed to be the original home of Albanians.

Another think wich speak for Albania and Kosovo is that Dacian and Thracian placenames ends with "Dava" and "Phara", bessaphara bessadava. Bessas fortress, in albanians its reverse, phara e bessave, wich with time can be pharrabessa but never reverse bessaphara because it does not work in the Albanian structure. Therefor Albanian can not have been developed from Dacian or Thracian, so the bulgar Girgovs theory about us being dacians falls. Also, there is no source of an immigration to illyria.



Maybe, but if this is true than the Albanian cultural influence in Kosovo was minor or negligible as the overwhelming majority of toponyms, hydronyms etc. in the region is Slavic.
Many ancient words was present before the slavic expansion, so the fact that slavs have change the names later is logic, since its always those who rule a kingdom who can change names, since its there rules and language wich have to be followed. Those who lived there but didnt rule, probably lived at the mountains and lived isolated, Albanians and Vlachs among others. While Albanians and Vlachs who lived at the cities had to adopt the orthodox faith and follow the conquers rules. So only because there is many slavic names in kosovo, ie newbuildings ie not old place names but cities wich are a few hundred years old, only testifies that slavs ruled the area, but it doesn't mean there was no other people living there.


Please don't quote wikipedia. ;) I haven't insulted you with something I said, have I?
My first time dude:cool: and no you have not insulted me, we are just having a nice discussion.


Nope. It most certainly does not. The few ancient Greek loanwords you have testify quite the opposite, actually.
So how come we have them? did good gave us them? slavs does obviously not have them.

Its quite logic if you ask me, Greek was the early influence(ie before roman empire). Albanians fled up to the mountains in areas wich was most influenced by Latin. Of course much greek influence and words got lost, since words got replaced and many new words started to flow in because of contact with new things.


Vlachs did live in the mountains, and they spoke a Romance language.
Thats because they sattled at the mountains and became sheepherders later and was already romanized. Albanians lived as sheepherders much earlier, therefor we could preserve our language.


Why posting something you don't understand?
"The researchers are following various leads which suggest that Albanian played a key role in the Balkan Sprachbund. For example, it is likely that Albanian is the source of the suffixed definite article in Romanian, Bulgarian and Macedonian, as this has been a feature of Albanian since ancient times."

"A project by the Department of Linguistics at the University of Vienna aims to prove that (Old) Albanian was a major influence on the other Balkan languages."

[Ushtari]

Here's an interesting text on the subject:


I'm guessing Mysian is an alternate spelling for Moesian. Also, if this speculation is true it would put the Albanians' ancestors somewhere in the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone.
What contradicts the daco/tracian theory is that both use suffix on placenames, dava phara.

"Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs

Dacian is related to Thracian, they are different dialects therefor the difference between phara dava.

No matter what, if we are dacomysian the theory says we lived in Dardania, wich this thread is all about.

[Guapo]

Kosovo has been a constituent part of Serbia for centuries and was internationally recognised as such from 1912. It was only in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 that the imperialist powers switched to backing agitation by Albanians for separation as part of their broader geo-political agenda in the Balkan Peninsula.

[Monolith]

You can call them what you want, it still does not change the fact our original home is right there, wich according to sources are called illyrians.
My main point was that most of today's Albania is not your original home, judging from the language you speak.


No because you dont seem to understand that north-albania, kosovo and montenegro is north of the jerick-line. These areas are assumed to be affected by latin and not much from Greek. Its these areas wich is believed to be the original home of Albanians.
I understand it quite well. That's why I wrote that if your ancestors managed to preserve their way of life (and consequently their language), they did it somewhere on the South-Southeastern fringes of Illyricum (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum,_Macedonia,_Moesia,_P annonia_and_Thracia.jpg).


Another think wich speak for Albania and Kosovo is that Dacian and Thracian placenames ends with "Dava" and "Phara", bessaphara bessadava. Bessas fortress, in albanians its reverse, phara e bessave, wich with time can be pharrabessa but never reverse bessaphara because it does not work in the Albanian structure. Therefor Albanian can not have been developed from Dacian or Thracia
Very interesting, even though I never claimed Albanian developed from Thracian. It is my personal opinion that your ancestors lived somewhere near the Illyrian-Thracian border, hence the observed similarities between them as well as Romanian-Albanian ones.


Many ancient words was present before the slavic expansion, so the fact that slavs have change the names later is logic, since its always those who rule a kingdom who can change names, since its there rules and language wich have to be followed.
If the Slavs changed place names en masse on a relatively large territory that Kosovo is (at least for the standards of that time), they would have been the first Savs to do so. You see, there are many pre-Slavic (even several non-Indo-European!) and non-Slavic toponyms in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, etc., and you're telling me that somehow Kosovo is different?


So how come we have them? did good gave us them? slavs does obviously not have them.

Its quite logic if you ask me, Greek was the early influence(ie before roman empire).
They testify that your ancestors had limited contact with the Greeks of their time, i.e. the probability is they lived outside of their cultural sphere.



Of course much greek influence and words got lost, since words got replaced and many new words started to flow in because of contact with new things.
But why weren't the words of Latin origin lost in turn?

[Ushtari]

My main point was that most of today's Albania is not your original home, judging from the language you speak.
Judging by the language we speak, we are most probably descendents of illyrians, therefor our original home stretch from Chameria(epirus) to Slovenia.


If the Slavs changed place names en masse on a relatively large territory that Kosovo is (at least for the standards of that time), they would have been the first Savs to do so. You see, there are many pre-Slavic (even several non-Indo-European!) and non-Slavic toponyms in Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia, etc., and you're telling me that somehow Kosovo is different?
Of course not, quite the opposite actually. All ancient names of the oldest towns that was present during illyrian time and roman time, have survived, but towns like mitrovica and such names are not ancient towns, but are "new" ie they are several hundred years old only.

Town names like Ulpiana and Prizren are not Slavic. Also the name "Gjakova" may come from the Albanian word "Gjak" wich means "Blood".

Also, we can take your precious Dalmatia for example. Dalmatia was known as a people with sheepherder life style, well ironically the word for sheep in Albanian is "Delme".

The word "Dardania" have survived in the Albanian language as "Dardha" wich means "Pear".


They testify that your ancestors had limited contact with the Greeks of their time, i.e. the probability is they lived outside of their cultural sphere.
Its more probably that it is they way i describe it. But we can only speculate.



But why weren't the words of Latin origin lost in turn?
Maybe because the Latin influence was bigger?

[Guapo]

You base this on that Edith Durham lady again. She was not a linguist, and she bases her theory on that of J.G von Hahn, a philologist who became obsessed with all things Albanian. He was the first person to really elaborate on the proposition of the Albanians' supposed Illyrian 'origin'. I am positive that pears were/are also grown outside of historical Dardania, speaking of which, were Krushevo and Korche in Dardania?

With regard to Dalmatia, how would you use the word 'delme' in a sentence today? From what I can see, the Albanian word for sheep is either 'dhen' or 'dele'.

Here is what one of your own says.You might know him

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich:


That, as well, witnesses the ethno genesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern Albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi (an) s, they are a Celtic tribe, which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old Germanic Franks, deforming the old Celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name, which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the Turkish Empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as Muslims they serve under the Turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the Albanian appellative Shqiptar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in Turkish is “eagle”, while in Albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus, the Albanians of Muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the Muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not Albanian at all, but pan Islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.


Count George Brankovic (1645-1711), self-proclaimed 'Despot of Illyria'


Count George Brankovic has proclaimed himself 'Despot of Illyria', a state that would include all 'Illyrian, Thracian, Moesian and other Eastern lands, the lands of St Sava, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia, Sirmia and other lands of Hungarian Kingdom'.

"After he had got a certificate from Patriarch Arsenie, which confirmed his descent of Serbain Despot family Brankovic, in order to proclaim himself despot of independent Illyrian state under the name of Despot George Brankovic II, he informed Emperor Leopold I about the idea. His plans were declined by the Austrian Court and he was given the title of count instead.

"After proclaiming the invitation to the Serbian people to follow him as their despot, and to start a struggle for freedom against the Turks, he was captured in Kladovo in 1689 by Austrian authorities and held captive until he died in 1711."

DUŠAN J. POPOVIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1690. (Great Migration of Serbs in 1690), Belgrade 1954.
STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic, Novi Sad 1990.

-----------

Cardinal Leopold Kollonich (1631-1707), Minister of State and Privy imperial councilor, names the arrived Serbs as 'Illyrians or Rascians' in 1706:

Cardinal Kollonich wrote to Emperor Leopold I in 1706 that the Privileges allowing the freedom of Orthodox religion cannot be allowed, and that Serbs cannot be allowed to remain in their "schismatic" faith, and continues : "... it has to be done in a quiet and silent way so that all these Illyrian or Rascian people can be brought to union with Roman Church, from which it merely differs at all."

RADOSLAV M. GRUJIĆ, Како се поступало са српским молбама на двору цесара Австријског последње године живота патријарха Арсенија III Црнојевића (The way Serbian pledges were treated on the Court of Austrian Caesar during the last year of life of Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1906.

--------------

Serbian national Privileges in Habsburg Monarchy were titled to
'Illyrian nation'


Front page of the first printed version of Serbian Privileges in 1715, Vienna:

PRIVILEGIA
PER
DIVOS
IMPERATORES
LEOPOLDUM
ET
JOSEPHUM
GLORIOSISSIMÆ REMINISCENTIÆ
NEC NON
MODERNAM REGNANTEM
MAJESTATEM,
CAROLUM VI.
INCLYTÆ
NATIONI ILLYRICÆ

'ILLYRIO SERBICA 1683-1715 (1723)' papers, Haus, Hof u. Staat. Archiv Wien
STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1990.

-----------

Sava Tekelija (also: Tököli Száva, 1761-1841)
the leader of Illyrian political thought of his time


In 1804 Sava Tekelija sent a Memorandum to Emperor Napoleon I, proposing the creation of a vast Illyran Kingdom - a large South Slav state that would, under the auspices of France, encompass the most of the Serb and Slav-inhabited Balkan regions. A year later, Tekelija sent a similar, slightly revised project to the Habsburg Emperor Francis I.

S. TEKELIJA, Opisanije života (Biography), Beograd: Prosveta 1966, pp. 171-187, 379-396.

---------------

This one was very interesting.....

When they, supported by Europe, unite into a large Illyrian Kingdom that would join together Bosnia, Bulgaria, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Albania, Dubrovnik and Serb-inhabited areas of Hungary with Serbia, this kingdom will be a powerful barrier against those powers, namely Austria and Russia, that would try to establish their domination in the Balkans. However, in a similar memorandum submitted to Emperor Franz I in 1805, Count Tekelija mentioned only Russia as a potential threat to the Balkans.

S. GAVRILOVIĆ, Vojvodina i Srbija u vreme prvog srpskog ustanka (Vojvodina and Serbia during the Serbian Uprising I), Novi Sad: Institut za istoriju 1974 pp.20-24.

-------

Official languages of Dukedom Serbia and Tamis Banat in 1849


When Dukedom (Vojvodina) of Serbia and Tamis Banat was established in 1849, Serbian language, which became official beside German, was named 'Illyrian':

The two official languages of the province were German and "Illyrian" (what would become Serbo-Croatian).

[Monolith]

Croatians also often called their language 'Illyrian' in the past, though for them it was always a synonym for Slavic ("u jezik ilirički aliti slovinski").

[Ushtari]

You base this on that Edith Durham lady again. She was not a linguist, and she bases her theory on that of J.G von Hahn, a philologist who became obsessed with all things Albanian. He was the first person to really elaborate on the proposition of the Albanians' supposed Illyrian 'origin'. I am positive that pears were/are also grown outside of historical Dardania, speaking of which, were Krushevo and Korche in Dardania?

With regard to Dalmatia, how would you use the word 'delme' in a sentence today? From what I can see, the Albanian word for sheep is either 'dhen' or 'dele'.

Here is what one of your own says.You might know him


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH this made my day, so you base your theory about being indigenous in balkan on some retarded Half-Albanian half-Serb? and on top of that you claim SERBO-CROATIAN is Illyrian:D AHHAHAHAHAHA :thumb001:

Tell me, where are those paleobalkan words in your language??

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my sources, its just you who deny facts.

Regarding Delme, the reason why google translate do not translate that word correctly is because its based on "Tosk Albanian"(ie the dialect that is spoken in south Albania). However, majority of all Albanians speak Gheg dialect, and in this dialect "Delme" is used more often.

[Guapo]

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahah this made my day, so you base your theory about being indigenous in balkan on some retarded half-albanian half-serb? And on top of that you claim serbo-croatian is illyrian:d ahhahahahaha :thumb001:

Tell me, where are those paleobalkan words in your language??

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my sources, its just you who deny facts.

Regarding delme, the reason why google translate do not translate that word correctly is because its based on "tosk albanian"(ie the dialect that is spoken in south albania). However, majority of all albanians speak gheg dialect, and in this dialect "delme" is used more often.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhaha hahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahh ahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahah ahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahha hahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaah ahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahha hahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahaha hhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahah ahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahah hahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahaha ahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahah hahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahaha hahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahah ahahahahahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahah ahhahahahaahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahaha haahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahaahahah ahHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA HAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAH AHAH

[Ushtari]

You base this on that Edith Durham lady again. She was not a linguist, and she bases her theory on that of J.G von Hahn, a philologist who became obsessed with all things Albanian. He was the first person to really elaborate on the proposition of the Albanians' supposed Illyrian 'origin'. I am positive that pears were/are also grown outside of historical Dardania, speaking of which, were Krushevo and Korche in Dardania?

With regard to Dalmatia, how would you use the word 'delme' in a sentence today? From what I can see, the Albanian word for sheep is either 'dhen' or 'dele'.

Here is what one of your own says.You might know him


Just the fact that you believe in such bullshit make me wonder what kind of idiot im talking to.

Some Albanians claim we are pelasgians, does that mean we are pelasigians just because they say it? Its a different thing to just say something and say something wich is supported by facts and logical theories.

It is a commonly known fact that we are a paleobalkan people, but wich paleobalkan people is still being discussed. Majority of linguists and historians who are familiar with the subject says Albanians have developed from south-illyrians, while the rest say from Thracians/Dacians. No one claim we are a Celtic tribe like Kaplan says.


"The name Dalmatae is connected with the Albanian word delmë, which means sheep in English"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=sv&id=4Nv6SPRKqs8C&q=delmet#v=snippet&q=delme&f=false

[Radojica]

Just the fact that you believe in such bullshit make me wonder what kind of idiot im talking to.

Some Albanians claim we are pelasgians, does that mean we are pelasigians just because they say it? Its a different thing to just say something and say something wich is supported by facts and logical theories.

It is a commonly known fact that we are a paleobalkan people, but wich paleobalkan people is still being discussed. Majority of linguists and historians who are familiar with the subject says Albanians have developed from south-illyrians, while the rest say from Thracians/Dacians. No one claim we are a Celtic tribe like Kaplan says.


"The name Dalmatae is connected with the Albanian word delmë, which means sheep in English"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=sv&id=4Nv6SPRKqs8C&q=delmet#v=snippet&q=delme&f=false


What about genetics? As far as I know, Albanians are not so much different from other Balkan people regarding genetics (Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosnians and Bulgarians, while the difference is slightly bigger than with Croatians)...

By the way, Neuri and Budini were paleobalkanic tribes too and they are connected with Serbs too. Claiming whose Balkan is is stupid since Balkan is the highway of Europe where numerous tribes and people were living, passing by and conquering.

But, anyway, let's see this


1 Ottoman Rule

1455 (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/1455.htm): Turkish cadastral (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Cadastral.htm) tax (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Tax.htm) census (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Census.htm) ( defter (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Defter.htm))9 of the Brankovic dynasty lands (covering 80% of present-day Kosovo and Metohija (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Kosovo:and:Metohija.htm)) recorded 480 villages, 13,693 adult males, 12,985 dwellings, 14,087 household heads (480 widows and 13,607 adult males). By ethnicity:

12,985 Serb (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Serb.htm)ian dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Vlach.htm) dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Albanians.htm) dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Bulgarians.htm) dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Ethnic:Greek.htm) dwellings in Lauša, Vucitrn
1 Jew (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Jew.htm)ish dwelling in Vucitrn
1 Croat (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Croat.htm) dwelling


2 19th century

19th century (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/19th:century.htm) data about the population of Kosovo (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Kosovo.htm) tend to be rather conflicting, giving numerical superiority to either Serbs (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Serbs.htm) or Albanians (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Albanians.htm). The Ottoman Empire (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Ottoman:Empire.htm) did not hold any census based on self-determination but had statistics using birth records. As these were consistently falsified to present the bulk of the population of the European part of the empire as Muslim (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Muslim.htm), they cannot be used as a reliable source of statistical information. A study in 1838 (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/1838.htm) by an Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller found Metohija to be mostly Slavic (Serbian) in character. 10 Müller gives data for the three counties (Bezirk) of Prizren (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Prizren.htm), Pec (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Pec.htm) and Djakovica (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Djakovica.htm) which roughly covered Metohija (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Metohija.htm), the portion adjacent to Albania and most affected by Albanian settlers. Out of 195,000 inhabitants in Metohija, Müller found:


73,572 Orthodox (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Eastern:Orthodoxy.htm) Serbs 38%
5,120 Catholic Albanians 3%
2,308 other non-Muslims (Vlachs etc.)
114,000 Muslims (58%), of which:

c. 38,000 are Serbs (19%)
c. 76,000 are Albanians (39%)



Müller's observations on towns:


Pec: 11.050 Serbs, 500 Albanians
Prizren: 16,800 Serbs, 6150 Albanians
Dakovica: majority of Albanians, surrounding villages Serbian

Another study done in 1871 (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/1871.htm) by Austria (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Austria.htm)n colonel Peter Kukulj for the internal use of the Austro-Hungaria (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Austria:Hungary.htm)n army showed that the mutesarifluk of Prizren (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Prizren.htm) (corresponding largely to present-day Kosovo and Metohija)) there was some 500,000 inhabitants, of which:


318.000 Serbs (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Serbs.htm) (64%),
161.000 Albanians (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Albanians.htm) (32%),
10.000 Roma (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Roma.htm) (Gypsies) and Circassians,
2.000 Turks (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Turks.htm)

Other 19th century (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/19th:century.htm) ethnographers of the Balkans (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Balkans.htm) such as French G. Lejean 12 Germans J. Hahn 12 and H. Kiepert 12, Austrian K. Sax12, Englishmen G. M. Mackenzie and A.P. Irby 12,13 have identified the teritorry as predominantly Albanian (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Albanians.htm). According to these, Serbs formed the majority of the population only of the regions of Mitrovica (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Mitrovica.htm) and Kosovo Polje (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Kosovo:Polje.htm), whereas western and eastern parts of today's province were dominated by Muslim Albanians. Maps by above-mentioned ethnographers, as well as other maps of the Balkans (http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Balkans.htm) may be found at 1 (http://albanian.com/information/history/ethnicma/) and 2 (http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/macedonia/maps/page_hist.htm).

[Ushtari]

What about genetics? As far as I know, Albanians are not so much different from other Balkan people regarding genetics (Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosnians and Bulgarians, while the difference is slightly bigger than with Croatians)...

By the way, Neuri and Budini were paleobalkanic tribes too and they are connected with Serbs too. Claiming whose Balkan is is stupid since Balkan is the highway of Europe where numerous tribes and people were living, passing by and conquering.

But, anyway, let's see this

You are right, today all balkan people are close genetically related. What we are speaking about here, is the proto-identity.

Genetic studies dont tell from what people you have your origin. We are all indo-europeans, so its quite logic that we are geneticly related in some way from some time. Therefor the genetic stuff is not something you can use in this case. What is more importent is the language and the cultural part, its this who form a people wich make differences.

No one have right to claim a area because of a historical reason, in that case we would have to rewrite the world map, it does not work like that. This debate is not about owning kosovo, it belongs to who ever lives there no matter what nationality. We do not claim kosovo because we are illyrians, but due to discrimination and torture by Serbs towards Albanians, ie unfair treatment. In that case we should give america back to Indians right? No matter if Albanians are the oldest people in the world, kosovo belongs to who ever lives there. Therefor its sad that you put politics and hate in this discussion, ie no serb want to accept that albanians is an ancient people just due to fear and hate. But the thing is that it does not change anything. You Serbs also claim that you where in majority in in 1400's, yes you may have been but are you today? should the Indians say the same thing "we where majority 500years ago, so use belong to us since we today are minority?" imagine how many boundaries we would have to redraw if it worked that way.


Regarding the ottoman statistic. It was based on Taxes and as you may have understood , Albanians was a people living at high altitudes as sheepherders. Many did not pay taxes to the Ottoman empire. It is also based on religion, Orthodox Albanians was counted as Serbs.

"A large number of Catholic churches and monasteries were enlarged and converted into Serbian ones. In the course of time the Orthodox church divided into several national churches corresponding to the states or peoples of the region. Thus the Serbian Orthodox Church acquired an independent identity in the thirteenth century, becoming closely tied to the power of the state and a strong supporter of state policies.

In Kosovo, especially in its eastern part, most Albanians were gradually assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox faith by numerous methods, including the baptism of infants with Serbian names and the conducting of all religious ceremonies such as marriages in the Serbian language

There followed a policy of enforced conversion of both Catholic and Orthodox Albanians to the Serbian national church -- conversion to the Serbian church being a priority of Serbian state policy, as can be shown by the Code of Stefan Dusan. This Code -- a form of constitution of the mediaeval Serbian kingdom -- contained so-called 'anti-heresy clauses' demanding that all subjects of the Serbian kingdom and members of foreign communities be baptised into the Serbian church. The Code laid down the role of the Serbian king as the defender of the Serbian church and the extirpator of `heresy'."

The book "Between Serb and Albanian
A History of Kosovo
By MIRANDA VICKERS
Columbia University Press"

[Radojica]

You are right, today all balkan people are close genetically related. What we are speaking about here, is the proto-identity.

ANd how do you know that you are "the right ones" when we have similar amount of proto-Balkan genes?


Genetic studies dont tell from what people you have your origin.

But, show you similarity with different groups of people.


We are all indo-europeans, so its quite logic that we are geneticly related in some way from some time.

And I am asking you, if genetic is similar among all today's Balkan people to those with proto-Balkan tribes, how can you claim that Albanians are indigenous in Kosovo, Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia and southern Serbia hence asking for some special right, but yet, not in Croatia where Illyrians had their territories too?

Have I mentioned gap in genetics between Croats and you Albanians? What, Croatian women and men are ugly so you avoided to breed with them :coffee:?


Therefor the genetic stuff is not something you can use in this case. What is more importent is the language and the cultural part, its this who form a people wich make differences.

Metohija is Greek word related to monastery, I don't see nothing Albanian there. Go through Kosovo look at the names of the towns, cities, places... MOst of them are of Slavic origin, not Albanian, or even better Illyrian. You are living on Balkan, but so are Greeks yet we, Slavs don't have much in common. Culture remained as such, because you were mountaineers and as the same case as with Greeks, were equal with Serbs.


No one have right to claim a area because of a historical reason, in that case we would have to rewrite the world map, it does not work like that.


Do you hear yourself? You are claiming that you are decedent of Illyrians, calling Kosovo and Metohija by Dardania and saying that no one have the right an area because of historical reasons :|?


This debate is not about owning kosovo, it belongs to who ever lives there no matter what nationality.

You could go back to Albania where you came from en masse during and after WWII if you did not like that you live in SFRJ.


We do not claim kosovo because we are illyrians, but due to discrimination and torture by Serbs towards Albanians, ie unfair treatment.

Do I have to remind you what Albanians were doing to the Serbs starting with becoming Muslims to today's day, firstly with Turks, then Bulgarians, Germans and Austro-Hungarians, over Nazis and Bulgarian and Italian fascists, to today's day with NATO, US and EU?



In that case we should give america back to Indians right? No matter if Albanians are the oldest people in the world, kosovo belongs to who ever lives there.

Tell that to those expelled Serbs and to those who are living in gethoes all over Kosovo and Metohija without water, electricity freedom of movement.


Therefor its sad that you put politics and hate in this discussion, ie no serb want to accept that albanians is an ancient people just due to fear and hate.

You started this thread solely because of political reasons, since Kosovo is actual and sensitive subject both in Serbia and International community because of the fear of the conseqeuences that could and will cause.



ie no serb want to accept that albanians is an ancient people just due to fear and hate.


Serbs are ancient people too which were mentioned for the first time in 5th century BC, so what?


But the thing is that it does not change anything. You Serbs also claim that you where in majority in in 1400's, yes you may have been but are you today?

How many of them have you expelled, killed and kidnapped starting from WWII and famous Skenderbeg division, not before, so you can say this? It went over every day torture, assassinations, kidnapping to open terrorism and killing. Serbian forces started mass expelling of Albanians after a year of KLA attacks and killings which resulted in NATO aggression. Only in the last 12 years more than 250.000 expelled Serbs, a few thousand killed and kidnapped.


should the Indians say the same thing "we where majority 500years ago, so use belong to us since we today are minority?"

You were minority in Yugoslavia and asked for separate country (although you will forever, or at least until Serbs retake Kosovo and Metohija again, be country of criminals and hive of the drugs).


imagine how many boundaries we would have to redraw if it worked that way.

Abhazia and Ossetia, for the start?


Regarding the ottoman statistic. It was based on Taxes and as you may have understood , Albanians was a people living at high altitudes as sheepherders. Many did not pay taxes to the Ottoman empire. It is also based on religion,

Albanians became Muslims en masse in order to avoid paying taxes, not because you were at "high altitudes" :rolleyes2:.


Orthodox Albanians was counted as Serbs.

Bullshit.


"A large number of Catholic churches and monasteries were enlarged and converted into Serbian ones.

Large number of churches and monasteries were Christian ones when they were built in that region, and later built in Byzantine style, but only after Great Sizma in 1054. Catholic churches by the time Serbian Orthodox Church started to exist were already converted in Orthodox ones (Byzantine style), so there's nothing which was converted in Serbian Orthodox church.



In the course of time the Orthodox church divided into several national churches corresponding to the states or peoples of the region. Thus the Serbian Orthodox Church acquired an independent identity in the thirteenth century, becoming closely tied to the power of the state and a strong supporter of state policies.

So?


In Kosovo, especially in its eastern part, most Albanians were gradually assimilated into the Eastern Orthodox faith by numerous methods, including the baptism of infants with Serbian names

This is utter bullshit, since majority of Albanians are Muslims. As far as I know, majority of Orthodox and Catholic Albanians live in Northern Albania, not Kosovo. And even so, if you are baptizing someone into Serbian Orthodox church it's normal to give proper baptized name which is in the most cases Serbian one (SLavic). What do you want to be called as Orthodox Christian, Halil, or Mustafa :rolleyes2:?


and the conducting of all religious ceremonies such as marriages in the Serbian language


Maybe old Slavonic language, Serbian surely not. The author of this "text" should inform herself a bit better.


There followed a policy of enforced conversion of both Catholic and Orthodox Albanians to the Serbian national church -- conversion to the Serbian church being a priority of Serbian state policy,

Orthodox Albanians to the Serbian church which is Orthodox too? What a heck is this stupidity :eek:? Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, nobody is stealing each others members and as far as I know, Albanian Orthodox church did not even exist back then, but they already were members of Serbian Orthodox church, which had nothing, I am saying again, had nothing to do with changing ones identity.


as can be shown by the Code of Stefan Dusan. This Code -- a form of constitution of the mediaeval Serbian kingdom -- contained so-called 'anti-heresy clauses' demanding that all subjects of the Serbian kingdom and members of foreign communities be baptised into the Serbian church.

Firstly, it was Empire, not kingdom and secondly and the most important, it was Empire of it's people. And will you stop with the name Serbian church when there's no such thing separated from Orthodoxy.


The Code laid down the role of the Serbian king as the defender of the Serbian church and the extirpator of `heresy'."

Nothing new for that period of Medieval Europe.


The book "Between Serb and Albanian
A History of Kosovo
By MIRANDA VICKERS
Columbia University Press"

Sounds like the author who is claiming that Milos Obilic was Albanian instead of Serbian. :rolleyes2:

[Monolith]

Judging by the language we speak, we are most probably descendents of illyrians, therefor our original home stretch from Chameria(epirus) to Slovenia.
Nope. You can't draw such conclusions as only a few items from Illyrian are actually linked to Albanian, and they too are inconclusive and vague. So no, your language does not testify that you descend from Illyrians but from some paleobalkan folk. That's all.

Secondly, you don't seem to understand that the Illyrians were descendants of pre-Indo-European tribes in the region, and came into being as a result of Indo-European cultural diffusion from the north. So they were mostly Indo-Europeanised peoples native to the area, and these assimilated natives were quite different from each others to begin with, judging from genetic data currently available.

Thus, to draw an analogy, it would me equally insane if I said Bulgaria is my original home because Bulgarians speak a closely related language.


but towns like mitrovica and such names are not ancient towns, but are "new" ie they are several hundred years old only.
1500 years ago sounds quite ancient if you ask me.

Also the name "Gjakova" may come from the Albanian word "Gjak" wich means "Blood".
Like Đakovo in Croatia? I believe you'd spell it 'Gjakovo', like you spell 'Gjakova' for Đakovica.


Also, we can take your precious Dalmatia for example.
Yes, it's a very nice part of Croatia. :)


Dalmatia was known as a people with sheepherder life style, well ironically the word for sheep in Albanian is "Delme".
Why ironically? And yes, the two words actually might be connected, assuming 'delme' or something similar really meant 'sheep' in the language of the Delmatae. Even though lexicon is the most superficial layer of any language, i.e. it's always possible to loan a word etc.




They testify that your ancestors had limited contact with the Greeks of their time, i.e. the probability is they lived outside of their cultural sphere.


Its more probably that it is they way i describe it. But we can only speculate.


You said that proto-Albanians lived somewhere North of the Jireček line (little or no Greek influence there), and after that you said there was a larger Greek influence in the distant past, but that it was lost due to proto-Albanian shepherding culture, which would put your ancestral population somewhere South of the line. So you got me confused there.

[Ushtari]

ANd how do you know that you are "the right ones" when we have similar amount of proto-Balkan genes?
We do not have knowledge about illyrian DNA. we have not extracted such, there is no such studies. Studies wich have been done, is to compare the current people.

As i said, we are talking about the proto-identity. If you use the little amount of logic that you poses, you see that today 2010 we are quite mixed with eachother. However, we have sources about Slavs(ie people with your language) invading Balkan in the 600'-800's. But we do not have any source about any people with my language invading Balkan, you see?



And I am asking you, if genetic is similar among all today's Balkan people to those with proto-Balkan tribes, how can you claim that Albanians are indigenous in Kosovo, Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia and southern Serbia hence asking for some special right, but yet, not in Croatia where Illyrians had their territories too?

Because we have preserved our language and culture. Our proto-identiy is from those tribes who lived there before slavs entered the area.

Same thing can be said about you, why are you considered to be Slavic tribes? Just due to the sources who tell that the Serb tribe who where slavs, invaded balkan and today speak a slavic language and have slavic culture. So its not the genetic part who say you are slavs. Why should you be called slavs but not call Albanians for example Illyrian decendents since we speak a language that is the countinue of Illyrian? Why are Germans and swedes considered to be german tribes? just due to the language and culture.


Have I mentioned gap in genetics between Croats and you Albanians? What, Croatian women and men are ugly so you avoided to breed with them :coffee:?
Whats your point really? i did not mean litterly that ALL people are the same in balkan by genetic.



Metohija is Greek word related to monastery, I don't see nothing Albanian there. Go through Kosovo look at the names of the towns, cities, places... MOst of them are of Slavic origin, not Albanian, or even better Illyrian. You are living on Balkan, but so are Greeks yet we, Slavs don't have much in common. Culture remained as such, because you were mountaineers and as the same case as with Greeks, were equal with Serbs.
I have already answered to this, scroll up and see.




Do you hear yourself? You are claiming that you are decedent of Illyrians, calling Kosovo and Metohija by Dardania and saying that no one have the right an area because of historical reasons :|?
Of course not, im just telling you facts. We(illyrians) was indeed in kosovo long before you serbs, and that we have adopted the word "Kosovo". But its true name still remains Dardania.




You could go back to Albania where you came from en masse during and after WWII if you did not like that you live in SFRJ.
There was indeed an immigration from Albania to kosovo, but when they came, there was already Albanians(illyrians) living in kosovo.

Same thing can be said about you, Serbian Montenegrin colonized Kosovo, should i then like you do and claim that you all come from Montenegro?

During middle ages there was no boundaries, people moved around everywhere. For example, we have cities in Albania, fier among others, who consist Kosovo descendents who moved there in 1800's. Should i then like you do, claim that all Albanians in Albania come from Kosovo? Thats how you Serbs argue.

Same thing can be used against you, you are descendents of Serbian colonizers who came to Kosovo in 1900's.


Do I have to remind you what Albanians were doing to the Serbs starting with becoming Muslims to today's day, firstly with Turks, then Bulgarians, Germans and Austro-Hungarians, over Nazis and Bulgarian and Italian fascists, to today's day with NATO, US and EU?
As i said, we are not claiming Kosovo because of an historical reason, but due to Serb behavior towards Albanians(just a decade ago).



Tell that to those expelled Serbs and to those who are living in gethoes all over Kosovo and Metohija without water, electricity freedom of movement.
This is of course a lie, Serbs have the same rights as any citizen in Kosovo. They have for example own schools where they teach in Serbian, did we have that during Milosevic?



You started this thread solely because of political reasons, since Kosovo is actual and sensitive subject both in Serbia and International community because of the fear of the conseqeuences that could and will cause.
I started this thread because of lack information among some of your countrymen.



How many of them have you expelled, killed and kidnapped starting from WWII and famous Skenderbeg division, not before, so you can say this? It went over every day torture, assassinations, kidnapping to open terrorism and killing. Serbian forces started mass expelling of Albanians after a year of KLA attacks and killings which resulted in NATO aggression. Only in the last 12 years more than 250.000 expelled Serbs, a few thousand killed and kidnapped.
What did you expect? It was just war and Albanians moved back after living in camps in Macedonia and Albania. Their houses where bombed. Do you think that Serbs dear to stay? when there was no judiciary system ofc Serbs fled since they where scared of Albanians who was seeking revenge. Right after the war, Albanians killed Albanians, because they "took the law in their hands". It takes time for stabilization. They started to recruit people to be polices etc. It takes time to create a democratic country, today it works good.

You kicked out 100000 Albanians to turkey, also you never mention that Albanians where the most oppressed people in the new state Yugoslavia. You also never mention the torture and awful plans against Albanians that your Cetnik Vasa Cubril did.



Albanians became Muslims en masse in order to avoid paying taxes, not because you were at "high altitudes" :rolleyes2:.
Albanians who lived at "low altitudes" became Muslims. Many of those who live at mountainous areas(high-altitudes) are predominantly Catholics today. Most Albanians where Catholics, today they are Muslims. Its because catholics had it toughest and had less rights during ottoman empire. Especially Albanians and Bosniaks, since they both where Catholics and under ottoman rule for 500 years. Today They are muslims, while those who where predominantly orthodox, are so still today. How come? you belonged to a own millet so you could preach your religion freely. The orthodox Church was shining during ottoman empire, their main enemy was the Catholic world.



Bullshit.
You can be bullshit.




Large number of churches and monasteries were Christian ones when they were built in that region, and later built in Byzantine style, but only after Great Sizma in 1054. Catholic churches by the time Serbian Orthodox Church started to exist were already converted in Orthodox ones (Byzantine style), so there's nothing which was converted in Serbian Orthodox church.

"Serbian Orthodox Church is founded with Archbishop Saint Sava, was recognized as autocephalous by Constantinople in 1219."

"After King Stefan Dušan assumed the imperial title of tsar, the Archbishopric of Peć was correspondingly raised to the rank of Patriarchate in 1346. In the century that followed, the Serbian Church achieved its greatest power and prestige. In the 14th century Serbian Orthodox clergy had the title of Protos at Mount Athos."

There are many churches wich are built during Stefan Nemanja and Stefan Dushan time in Kosovo, ie Serbian Orthodox Churches.




This is utter bullshit, since majority of Albanians are Muslims. As far as I know, majority of Orthodox and Catholic Albanians live in Northern Albania, not Kosovo. And even so, if you are baptizing someone into Serbian Orthodox church it's normal to give proper baptized name which is in the most cases Serbian one (SLavic). What do you want to be called as Orthodox Christian, Halil, or Mustafa :rolleyes2:?

We are talking about albanians in the 1200's-1300's, ie Albanians who later became part of the Serbian church, ie the got assimilated. Albanians being muslim today is because they where Catholics earlier(see above).

In Kosovo i see Serbs who actually look Albanian, but differ from the rest of the Serbs in Serbia. Also their culture is quite similar to our, but differ from rest of Serbian regions, a part of the culture.



Maybe old Slavonic language, Serbian surely not. The author of this "text" should inform herself a bit better.
Stefan Nemanja created a own Serbian church. It was moved from todays Novi pazar to somewhere in Pec, Kosovo. So he created a Serbian Church, therefor the Serbian language was spoken there. Serbian or "Slavic" does not matter since Slavic in that time was the south-slavic languages, ie Serbian, Croatian, Bulgarian etc. Same language but different dialects. It was these "languages" that Albanians spoke in the church, not Albanian. Ofc you get assimilated when the priest gave the child Slavic names. Why do catholic Albanians have Latin names? because the priests named after Latin, same thing goes for the Slavic church.




Orthodox Albanians to the Serbian church which is Orthodox too? What a heck is this stupidity :eek:? Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, nobody is stealing each others members and as far as I know, Albanian Orthodox church did not even exist back then, but they already were members of Serbian Orthodox church, which had nothing, I am saying again, had nothing to do with changing ones identity.
Ofc it changes, since for example many old documents mention Albanians as Latins because of their Catholic faith. Same thing goes for many ottoman documents, where they treat Muslim Albanians as Turks. Just due to the Muslim faith.

[Guapo]

Dalmatia belongs to the sheep! Croats out!

[Aramis]

Dalmatia belongs to the sheep! Croats out!

Where the shepherds at?

[Ushtari]

Nope. You can't draw such conclusions as only a few items from Illyrian are actually linked to Albanian, and they too are inconclusive and vague. So no, your language does not testify that you descend from Illyrians but from some paleobalkan folk. That's all.

Secondly, you don't seem to understand that the Illyrians were descendants of pre-Indo-European tribes in the region, and came into being as a result of Indo-European cultural diffusion from the north. So they were mostly Indo-Europeanised peoples native to the area, and these assimilated natives were quite different from each others to begin with, judging from genetic data currently available.

Thus, to draw an analogy, it would me equally insane if I said Bulgaria is my original home because Bulgarians speak a closely related language.
First of all, we do not have genetic data about Illyrians.

Secondly, our language testifies that we are a paleobalkan people, we have three choices "Illyrians" "Thracians" and "Dacians". I proved to you that we can not be Dacians or Thacians judging by the citynames, what do we have left? ILLYRIANS! and irronicaly today 2010 we live in south-illyria.


1500 years ago sounds quite ancient if you ask me.
The earliest source of the town mitrovica is from 1400's when it was called "Civitas Sancti Demetrii", later renamed to Mitrovica. As i said earlier, most of the slavic citynames in kosovo are not ancient but several hundred years old only. How many times do i have to tell you slavs that during 1200's the Serbian culture was shining and many citynames was slaviced. Serbs ruled the kosovo region during Stefan Nemanja and Stefan Dusha. This means Albanians and Vlachs who lived there had to follow the rules of Stefan. Serbian was the main language.


Like Đakovo in Croatia? I believe you'd spell it 'Gjakovo', like you spell 'Gjakova' for Đakovica.
Probably, serbs have slavicied the name Gjakova. But we can only speculate.


Yes, it's a very nice part of Croatia. :)
Indeed


Why ironically? And yes, the two words actually might be connected, assuming 'delme' or something similar really meant 'sheep' in the language of the Delmatae. Even though lexicon is the most superficial layer of any language, i.e. it's always possible to loan a word etc.
Its not a loanword, it has the same origin. Albanians lived as sheepherders for long periods of time. the fact that the word for sheep wich is considered to be original Albanian, ie not loanword and share cognates with dalemete is quite interesting isn't it? Why have Albanians preserved the word wich have a meaning? What does Dalmatia means in slavic? NOTHING!


You said that proto-Albanians lived somewhere North of the Jireček line (little or no Greek influence there), and after that you said there was a larger Greek influence in the distant past, but that it was lost due to proto-Albanian shepherding culture, which would put your ancestral population somewhere South of the line. So you got me confused there.
Most of it was lost due to heavy influence from Latin, this should be quite logic.

"But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs

[Guapo]

Where the shepherds at?

In zagreb.

[Monolith]

...
We're running around in circles here. These discussions are rarely productive anyway. Too bad there's too much politics involved.


In zagreb.
Look on the bright side. At least their children will be civilized. :D

[Ushtari]

We're running around in circles here. These discussions are rarely productive anyway. Too bad there's too many politics involved.
Indeed, im just curious, whats your opinion? from what balkan people are we descendents of?

[Radojica]

Where the shepherds at?

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7714/1917rv8.jpg

Apparently, in Belgrade xD

[Monolith]

Indeed, im just curious, whats your opinion? from what balkan people are we descendents of?
I believe proto-Albanians descended either from Illyrians heavily influenced by Thracians, or from Thracians heavily influenced by Illyrians.

[Ushtari]

I believe proto-Albanians descended either from Illyrians heavily influenced by Thracians, or from Thracians heavily influenced by Illyrians.
Interesting, it could be.

[Osweo]

"Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs
This is all very well, but cannot be used to prove anything.

The same tendency has been observed in Welsh, for instance...

When the Romans were here, they recorded a place-name Letocetum, i.e. Grey-Wood in the ancestor of Welsh. HOwever, the same idea would be expressed today as Coed Llwyd / Wood Grey(I think :p), with the elements separated and in a different order.

Welsh developed from British, this is not disputed. Noel Malcolm is therefore a fool to suppose that it is impossible for Albanian to have come from Thracian. :rolleyes:


Like Đakovo in Croatia? I believe you'd spell it 'Gjakovo', like you spell 'Gjakova' for Đakovica.

Probably, serbs have slavicied the name Gjakova. But we can only speculate.
:rotfl:
Compare also the village Дьяково that gave its name to the Iron Age Dyakovo Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyakovskaya_culture)...
Any Finno-Albanians out by the River Moskva in ancient times? :wink
:lol:

Натураллъ, fuck.. NATURALLY, the names are all from the title 'dyak', cognate with English 'Deacon'.

Дьяк (от греч. διακονος, diakonos — служитель) — начальник приказа. Например, посольский дьяк — начальник посольского приказа, думный дьяк — нижний чин в боярской думе.

Дьяк лишь в последнее столетие обозначал только духовный сан, в XVII ст. дьяк — это писарь, столоначальник и т.д. Званию (весьма высокому) в Запорожском войске «войскового писаря» в Донском соответствовал — «войсковой дьяк».

Hehe, Russky joke;

Очень много фамилий у казаков от названия того или иного духовного сана (Дячкины, Поповы и т.д.). Особенно распространена фамилия Поповы у донских казаков. Назвать фамилию Попова на Дону — ровно ничего не сказать.
В Донском Кадетском корпусе к таким фамилиям присоединяли еще и №.; у приготовишек, или перво*классников у Поповых бывали №№, обычно превышающие 2 десятка.
Известен такой анекдот, имеющий историческое основание. После занятия союзными войсками Парижа в 1813 г. Донской атаман гр. Платов представлял на смотру импер. Александру I казачьи полки.
Последние в то время не носили №, а назывались именами командиров полков. Во время прохождения в конном строю полков атаман гр. Платов среди других будто бы назвал: «Полк Дячкина... Дьячихина, Дьякова... Дьяконова... Попова 8... Попова 12, Попова 13, Протопопова... полк Апостолова.»
Когда был назван последний полк, Александр I, будто бы, спросил: «А где же полк Иисусов?» На что Донской атаман ответил: «Не успели сформировать: война кончилась.»
:D:p

[Guapo]

it's hard to find a decent Illyrian these days.

[Aramis]

Натураллъ, fuck.. NATURALLY, the names are all from the title 'dyak', cognate with English 'Deacon'.

Good thinking Oswik.

It's 'Đakon' in Croatian. Đakovo (http://zupa-svihsvetih-djakovo.hr/images/katedrala.jpg) was also known throughout history by other names, like Dyaco, Diaco, Dyacow etc.

It also used to be the seat of the Bosnian diocese during the 13th century, as Brdo (next to Sarajevo) was destabilised due to religious wars between the Bosnian and Roman-Catholic Church.

[Guapo]

Gjerk offs!!!!!!$#!@^#^UY&

[Guapo]

Secondly, our language testifies that we are a paleobalkan people, we have four choices "Illyrians" "Thracians" "Dacians" and "Cunts".

fixed.

[Ushtari]

This is all very well, but cannot be used to prove anything.

The same tendency has been observed in Welsh, for instance...

When the Romans were here, they recorded a place-name Letocetum, i.e. Grey-Wood in the ancestor of Welsh. HOwever, the same idea would be expressed today as Coed Llwyd / Wood Grey(I think :p), with the elements separated and in a different order.

Welsh developed from British, this is not disputed. Noel Malcolm is therefore a fool to suppose that it is impossible for Albanian to have come from Thracian. :rolleyes:


Tell me, can you say Both "Peterchurch" and "Church of Peter?" in welsh?



also, inscriptions proves what Noel said.

"Only four Thracian inscriptions of any length have been found. One is a gold ring found in 1912 in the town of Ezerovo, Bulgaria. The ring was dated to the 5th century BC. On the ring is an inscription written in a Greek script which says:

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ / ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ / ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ / ΡΑΖ / ΗΛΤΑ
rolisteneasn/ereneatil/teanēskoa/razeadom/eantilezu/ptamiēe/raz/ēlta

There is a small text in tracian(written in Greek) that have survived but can not be explained with any current language.

[Osweo]

Tell me, can you say Both "Peterchurch" and "Church of Peter?" in welsh?
You've completely missed the point.
You have to say Churchpeter, but the ancestor of Welsh would have said Peterchurch. Malcolm says that such a transition is 'impossible', which is stupid, because I've just demonstrated that such a shift can and HAS happened.

It's hardly unique in Welsh, either. I've just been looking at a map of Cumberland in England, where the more usual 'Bridekirk' (i.e. Saint Brigid's Church) is also accompanied by an anomalous 'Kirkbride' a few miles away. Changes in linguistic 'laws' can and do happen for many reasons.


also, inscriptions proves what Noel said.

"Only four Thracian inscriptions of any length have been found. One is a gold ring found in 1912 in the town of Ezerovo, Bulgaria. The ring was dated to the 5th century BC. On the ring is an inscription written in a Greek script which says:

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ / ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ / ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ / ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ / ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ / ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ / ΡΑΖ / ΗΛΤΑ
rolisteneasn/ereneatil/teanēskoa/razeadom/eantilezu/ptamiēe/raz/ēlta

There is a small text in tracian(written in Greek) that have survived but can not be explained with any current language.

How does that prove anything!? You need to study logic before getting involved in palaeolinguistics.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Is it mere coincidence that the Albanians only started to be known after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans? I think not.

[Ushtari]

You've completely missed the point.
You have to say Churchpeter, but the ancestor of Welsh would have said Peterchurch. Malcolm says that such a transition is 'impossible', which is stupid, because I've just demonstrated that such a shift can and HAS happened.


My friend, can you or can you not say in both ways in Welsh? if the answer is yes then this comparison can not be done since in Albanian you can ONLY say "Church of Peter".

[poiuytrewq0987]

it's hard to find a decent Illyrian these days.

What? I already know a few, Monolith, you and Radojica. Yugoslav is just another name for Illyrian. :D

[Ushtari]

Is it mere coincidence that the Albanians only started to be known after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans? I think not.

Read through this thread again, and you will find all answerers.

[Osweo]

Is it mere coincidence that the Albanians only started to be known after the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans? I think not.
No coincidence, just straightforward normal historical phenomena at work. It's nothing short of idiotic to believe Albanian was imported (from the Caucasus or wherever), believe me. Albanians just came to the notice of history because the Turkish invasion made events in the Balkans suddenly more interesting and important for all concerned - local or otherwise. Had the Turk not come along, things would have slumbered on as before - and the Albanians may well have been fully Slavicised by now, and thus escaped the notice of history altogether.

My friend, can you or can you not say in both ways in Welsh? if the answer is yes then this comparison can not be done since in Albanian you can ONLY say "Church of Peter".
Gah! :p
You must say Llanbedr. In ancient times, it might have been *Petrolanda.

Malcolm says 'Church of Peter' CANNOT have come from 'Petrochurch'.
= Albanian CANNOT be neo-Thracian

In Welsh, 'Church of Peter' DID come from 'Petrochurch'.
= Albanian MIGHT POSSIBLY be neo-Thracian after all!

It's only MIGHT!!!!

Malcolm rules things out, thinking he's helping by eliminating the impossible (as :sherlock: Holmes would say). Malcolm's reasoning is faulty, as structural shifts implied are NOT impossible.

Christ. Is that clear!?!? :eek:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Read through this thread again, and you will find all answerers.

Shitpars are just untermensch Slavicized Illyrians who failed to make it in the big world.

[Ushtari]

Gah! :p
You must say Llanbedr. In ancient times, it might have been *Petrolanda.

Malcolm says 'Church of Peter' CANNOT have come from 'Petrochurch'.
= Albanian CANNOT be neo-Thracian

In Welsh, 'Church of Peter' DID come from 'Petrochurch'.
= Albanian MIGHT POSSIBLY be neo-Thracian after all!

It's only MIGHT!!!!

Malcolm rules things out, thinking he's helping by eliminating the impossible (as :sherlock: Holmes would say). Malcolm's reasoning is faulty, as structural shifts implied are NOT impossible.

Christ. Is that clear!?!? :eek:

Hahaha you still did not answered to my question:D

In english you can use both Peterchurch and Church of Peter. Therefor(if it would be english that you refered to) it can not be used as a statement, since in albanian you can only say "Church of Peter" and not(and never!) Peterchurch.

So again, is it possible to meet two welsh guys where one of them say "Church of Peter" and the other one "Peterchurch" (in welsh ofc)?

[Osweo]

Hahaha you still did not answered to my question:D
I DID!!!!!! ABOUT THREE TIMES. :rage

ONCE MORE: In Welsh, it's ONLY possible to say Churchpeter. OKAY??? Like Albanian.

BUT, it wasn't always so.

In english you can use both Peterchurch and Church of Peter. Therefor(if it would be english that you refered to) it can not be used as a statement, since in albanian you can only say "Church of Peter" and not(and never!) Peterchurch.
I can say Peterchurch in English and it will be an acceptable placename form. I can say 'Church of Peter', but this would not be used as a placename.

Welsh must have gone through a transitory stage like that seen in modern English, where both were possible. The rules later hardened.

This MAY have occured in Albanian's protohistory. Albanian (like Welsh AND English (and most IE languages)) has clearly lost a lot of its inflection possibilities.

So again, is it possible to meet two welsh guys where one of them say "Church of Peter" and the other one "Peterchurch" (in welsh ofc)?
No....... :rage

[Ushtari]

I DID!!!!!! ABOUT THREE TIMES. :rage

ONCE MORE: In Welsh, it's ONLY possible to say Churchpeter. OKAY??? Like Albanian.

BUT, it wasn't always so.

I can say Peterchurch in English and it will be an acceptable placename form. I can say 'Church of Peter', but this would not be used as a placename.

Welsh must have gone through a transitory stage like that seen in modern English, where both were possible. The rules later hardened.

This MAY have occured in Albanian's protohistory.

No....... :rage

Thank you very much, it was me after all who did not understood you. I will look more into this tomorrow since im very tired right now.

[Ushtari]

The thing is my friend, even if we are thracians(wich we most likely are not) it puts us in the kosovo region, and the most important(to respond to serb propaganda) we are indigenous in the area.

Btw, i have been thinking. Do you think its possible that the romans noted the town as "Grey-wood" because it was the only logic way in their language(romans)?

I really dont see how they could say "Peterchurch" in albanian before, its totaly against our whole structure.

its totally impossible to say "Reach's Girlfriend" but you must say "Girlfriend of Reach". So i do not think its the same thing here, with the welsh language.

[Guapo]

The thing is my friend, even if we are thracians(wich we most likely are) it puts us in the kosovo region, and the most important(to respond to serb truth) we are not indigenous in the area.

Btw, i have been thinking. Do you think its possible that the romans noted the town as "Grey-wood" because it was the only logic way in their language(romans)?

I really dont see how they could say "Peterchurch" in albanian before, its totaly against our whole structure.

its totally impossible to say "Reach's Boyfriend" but you must say "bumchum of Reach". So i do not think its the same thing here, with the welsh language.

Fixed.

[Monolith]

I really dont see how they could say "Peterchurch" in albanian before, its totaly against our whole structure.
What Osweo said is that these structures can change with time. So your ancestors might have used a different structure altogether. Nothing too unusual there, as there are many diffferences in the syntax of f.e. contemporary Irish and that of proto-Indo-European language. Why would your language be exempt from that is beyond me.

[Osweo]

The thing is my friend, even if we are thracians(wich we most likely are not) it puts us in the kosovo region, and the most important(to respond to serb propaganda) we are indigenous in the area.
... as if that gives the right to act like savages. :ohwell:
Serbs are indigenous too. Anything over three hundred years is purely academic, and of little relevance to land claims or sovereignty.

Btw, i have been thinking. Do you think its possible that the romans noted the town as "Grey-wood" because it was the only logic way in their language(romans)?
No. Latin works the OTHER way round. And thousands of such Celtic place names are noted all over Europe in the same style.

I really dont see how they could say "Peterchurch" in albanian before, its totaly against our whole structure.
You only know Albanian from the modern period. You seem unable to realise that languages can change drastically. There is little point continuing this discussion.

I am satisfied that I have demonstrated how poor a scholar Noel Malcolm is.

[Guapo]

Vlachs are the indigenous peoples of the Balkans! Slavic yellow skinned mongols and Albanians from Caucasus out!! You all stole Vlach/Roman culture!

9JF8SpKG0SY

[Ushtari]

... as if that gives the right to act like savages. :ohwell:
Serbs are indigenous too. Anything over three hundred years is purely academic, and of little relevance to land claims or sovereignty.

No. Latin works the OTHER way round. And thousands of such Celtic place names are noted all over Europe in the same style.

You only know Albanian from the modern period. You seem unable to realise that languages can change drastically. There is little point continuing this discussion.

I am satisfied that I have demonstrated how poor a scholar Noel Malcolm is.
First of all, dont talk to me about US behaving like savages, your precious Serbs have terrorized almost all their neighbors.

Secondly, i do understand that it is possible that Albanian earlier had a different structure. But based on Available information about Albanian and Thracian, we can not be Thracian's.

This is probably what Malcolm meant.

[Osweo]

First of all, dont talk to me about US behaving like savages, your precious Serbs have terrorized almost all their neighbors.
People war against their neighbours, big surprise, happens everywhere. However, your countrymen commit the very worst repugnant sort of crimes thinkable, in any country foolish enough to let them in. Obviously, I know you're not ALL like that, and our fellow member Tonsor is a good example of the best sort of fellow, but you must admit that a bloody LOT of you are the lowest of scum.
I don't want to go into details, but when pimps and drug dealers torture their women with boiling water with sugar in, or when gangs murder people to sell their organs, or human traffickers rape their captives daily, well... I'm afraid it rather blackens the reputation of their people. :(

Secondly, i do understand that it is possible that Albanian earlier had a different structure. But based on Available information about Albanian and Thracian, we can not be Thracian's.
I think it's impossible to rule anything out. I don't reallly think that the simplistic division into 'Illyrians and Thracians' really adequately expresses the linguistic and ethnic situation in the ancient Balkans anyway.

This is probably what Malcolm meant.
Malcolm meant to sell his book. He succeeded. He also meant to help the propaganda drive against the Serbs. Again, he succeeded.

[Guapo]

He also meant to help the propaganda drive against the Serbs.

Funny you should say that. If a Serb mentions it then he/she would be branded as a whiner and delusional when even the deaf, dumb and blind could see that there was a huge propaganda war against Serbs in the media.

[Monolith]

Funny you should say that. If a Serb mentions it then he/she would be branded as a whiner and delusional when even the deaf, dumb and blind could see that there was a huge propaganda war against Serbs in the media.
boo hoo, I'm all in tears :cry2

[Ushtari]

People war against their neighbours, big surprise, happens everywhere. However, your countrymen commit the very worst repugnant sort of crimes thinkable, in any country foolish enough to let them in. Obviously, I know you're not ALL like that, and our fellow member Tonsor is a good example of the best sort of fellow, but you must admit that a bloody LOT of you are the lowest of scum.
I don't want to go into details, but when pimps and drug dealers torture their women with boiling water with sugar in, or when gangs murder people to sell their organs, or human traffickers rape their captives daily, well... I'm afraid it rather blackens the reputation of their people. :(
And you speak to me about propaganda, well this is propaganda.


or when gangs murder people to sell their organs,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMq_4zA997c


I think it's impossible to rule anything out. I don't reallly think that the simplistic division into 'Illyrians and Thracians' really adequately expresses the linguistic and ethnic situation in the ancient Balkans anyway.
Im not ruling anything out, im just telling you that judging by the available information, we cant be thracians since the placenames are against our whole structure and the short thracian text that have been found is Alien to Albanian.


Malcolm meant to sell his book. He succeeded. He also meant to help the propaganda drive against the Serbs. Again, he succeeded.
What is propaganda in Malcolms book?

You aint really that stupid to think that Albanians have their origin OUTSIDE the balkans? because Malcolm does not anywhere state that we ARE illyrians, but most probably ofc.

[Ushtari]

Funny you should say that. If a Serb mentions it then he/she would be branded as a whiner and delusional when even the deaf, dumb and blind could see that there was a huge propaganda war against Serbs in the media.

Yeah ofc, the whole world is in a campaign against the precious Serbs, who have not done anything bad in their whole lives.:rolleyes:

[Heretik]

but you must admit that a bloody LOT of you are the lowest of scum.


http://www.overclock.net/attachments/hardware-news/153287d1272663201-xbitlabs-amd-phenom-ii-x6-review-invalid-argument.jpg

Bloody lot in every nation are the lowest scum so, your argument is invalid. :D

[Guapo]

boo hoo, I'm all in tears :cry2

boo hoo Serbs bombed croatia :cry2

[Guapo]

Yeah ofc, the whole world is in a campaign against the precious Serbs, who have not done anything bad in their whole lives.:rolleyes:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/109412277_ff27d2a841.jpg

[Aramis]

Serbs pretty much bombed anyone around them :D

[Guapo]

More to come. We're saving up money in the diaspora to buy an atomic bomb.

[Ushtari]

More to come. We're saving up money in the diaspora to buy an atomic bomb.
You better hurry up

Population "growth" in Serbia 1998-2009: -347.368!
http://webrzs.stat.gov.rs/axd/en/drugastrana.php?Sifra=0013&izbor=odel&tab=1
:cool:

[Monolith]

boo hoo Serbs bombed croatia :cry2
Oh, but I wasn't in tears back then. I was a kid cheering for my father to kick your asses, which he did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm). :D

[Heretik]

Now I would post once again a picture of a specific vehicle but mr. Nobody would again get upset so I'll skip it this time. :D

[Guapo]

http://www.mostlymuppet.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/andre_croat.jpg

[Guapo]

your asses

You must be proud of the baby killers.

[Guapo]

Now I would post once again a picture of a specific vehicle but mr. Nobody would again get upset so I'll skip it this time. :D

Does this make you upset? I'm sure it does. Stop being such a hypocritical cunt and move on with your life.

LWmt4GfdQDc

[Guapo]

You better hurry up

Population "growth" in Serbia 1998-2009: -347.368!
http://webrzs.stat.gov.rs/axd/en/drugastrana.php?Sifra=0013&izbor=odel&tab=1
:cool:

KOphGZZrE44

[Ushtari]

KOphGZZrE44

Cry me a river...

[Guapo]

Cry me a river...

Nah, I don't cry. I'm Montenegrin, not albanian.

[Ushtari]

Nah, I don't cry. I'm Montenegrin, not albanian.

I could not care less, now get the fuck off, since the only thing you have done since i opened this thread, is trolling!

[Guapo]

only thing you have done since i opened this thread, is trolling!

:cool:

[Radojica]

Elx-g0rl0I8


Tisina bre! Vreme je za crtatj, now shat d fak ap!

[Guapo]

why dont u shut up?!

[Monolith]

You must be proud of the baby killers.
Yep, I'm especially proud of those who fed Serbian newborns to lions. :D
PkEKTfi1M_I
:D

[Guapo]

Jel' ovo neka montaža? :D

JXeLL2tpxNs

[poiuytrewq0987]

Albania je Srbija

[Aramis]

Serbs pretty much bombed anyone around them :D

Why has this post of mine been thanked by two Serbs? I was serious.


Albania je Srbija

*Albanija

[Radojica]

Why has this post of mine been thanked by two Serbs? I was serious.


Because in every truth there's some joke :D

:chin:

actually, it's the other way around, but you are one funny guy, that's why, kind of a guy who would tell to a friend that his mother has died on the way which would go something like this "tell me, my friend, who do you have of family you really care about and like? And a friend would start counting "brother, sister, aunty, aunt, aunty..." "and what about your mother?", "of course, there's no need to mention my mother i have and love and care about the most" "HA!! My ass you have mother, she just passed away" :p

[Ushtari]

Because in every truth there's some joke :D

:chin:

actually, it's the other way around, but you are one funny guy, that's why, kind of a guy who would tell to a friend that his mother has died on the way which would go something like this "tell me, my friend, who do you have of family you really care about and like? And a friend would start counting "brother, sister, aunty, aunt, aunty..." "and what about your mother?", "of course, there's no need to mention my mother i have and love and care about the most" "HA!! My ass you have mother, she just passed away" :p
Now when you serbs got totally fucked, can you please keep this meaningless off-topic discussion somewhere els?

[Monolith]

This thread is now officially ruined. read balkanized

[poiuytrewq0987]

An Albanian trying to contribute to an intelligent discussion is like participating in the special Olympics. Your inputs are retarded one way or other.

[poiuytrewq0987]

This thread is now officially ruined. read balkanized

Who doesn't like Balkanization? I think Balkanized baklavas are the best.

[Monolith]

Who doesn't like Balkanization? I think Balkanized baklavas are the best.
I don't. I like baklava though.

[Radojica]

Now when you serbs got totally fucked, can you please keep this meaningless off-topic discussion somewhere els?

Make me :icon_cool:

[Ushtari]

Make me :icon_cool:
Well i dont expect much more from a SHKA.

[Radojica]

Well i dont expect much more from a SHKA.

I lowered myself on your level, what do you expect now from me now :shrug:?

[Heretik]

Ooooh a cat fight. :D

[Radojica]

Ooooh a cat fight. :D

CAt fight between pussy cats and lions is not possible, so...

[Ushtari]

I lowered myself on your level, what do you expect now from me now :shrug:?

Frustrated for having absolutely nothing to say against my statements in this thread?

[Radojica]

Frustrated for having absolutely nothing to say against my statements in this thread?

You said what? You can't prove anything of what you said here, those are just your insinuations, while there is written history of Serbs on Balkans lasting for the last 1500 years. In case Albanians were so magnificent on Kosovo there would be more traces... You are asking to get something on behalf of the history which was happening two thousand years in the past, after Byzantium, Roman Empire conquest and the last one, Slavic one.

Most of your statements were discarded, especially those about your Illyrian roots, Monolith and Osweo done quite a good job there leaving me not so much space to say something else ;)

[Heretik]

CAt fight between pussy cats and lions is not possible, so...

Who is who? :D

[Radojica]

Who is who? :D

Since it were not Serbs who cried and who were licking US asses to get some help against Us, guess :coffee:

[Heretik]

Albanians are the mighty lion supported by the almighty Sphynx? :coffee: :D

[Aramis]

Most of your statements were discarded, especially those about your Illyrian roots, Monolith and Osweo done quite a good job there leaving me not so much space to say something else ;)

I believe both Monolith and Osweo agreed on the (partially?) Illyrian roots of the Albanian population. No?

Osweo is a history genius, but as a Serb lover his biased arse is out of the game. :D

[Ushtari]

You said what? You can't prove anything of what you said here, those are just your insinuations, while there is written history of Serbs on Balkans lasting for the last 1500 years.
Your original home is on the other side of the Carpathian Mountains. You see, we have documents about emperor Hercaklius inviting your filthy asses to our lands.


In case Albanians were so magnificent on Kosovo there would be more traces... You are asking to get something on behalf of the history which was happening two thousand years in the past, after Byzantium, Roman Empire conquest and the last one, Slavic one.
Do i have to enlight you that our language share cognates with paleobalkan words? Do i have to enlight you that our language is heavily affected by Latin? Do i have to enlight you that there is no source of an "Albanian" immigration to Balkan?

Language studies, be studying the Albanian language, testifies that Albanian have been affected by loanwords from its neighbors. Ie if Albanian would be imported to Balkan, it should then have loanwords or familywords from that geographical area. Why cant any other area then Balkan be connected with Albanian?

The fact is, that archaeological findings shows that people with shepherd's life have been living in Albania isolated without getting assimilated. So, there was conditions for the ancient people in southern Balkan ie Illyria to survive the slavic and other expansions, where they have avoided assimilation and preserved their language intact.

"What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of
northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the
survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html


Most of your statements were discarded, especially those about your Illyrian roots, Monolith and Osweo done quite a good job there leaving me not so much space to say something else
No, absolutely not. Since we do not have any source of Albanian having any other structure then the present one, Noel Malcolm is totally right, ie we can not be Thracians judging by the Citynames.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Reach the shiptar needs some enlightening, I think.

[Radojica]

Your original home is on the other side of the Carpathian Mountains. You see, we have documents about emperor Hercaklius inviting your filthy asses to our lands.

That is the official date of our coming to Balkans which does not mean that Slavs were not already here, but under different name. According to you, back then you were Illyrians now Albanians, why could not be that the case with Slavs too? We both share genetic traces of proto-Balkan tribes, so I don't see who is giving you the right to decide to whom this area is belonging Anyway, if that was your land, how could somebody else invite us there?



Do i have to enlight you that there is no source of an "Albanian" immigration to Balkan?

Thing that there's no source does not mean it did not happen.


Do i have to enlight you that our language share cognates with paleobalkan words?

Good for you...


Do i have to enlight you that our language is heavily affected by Latin?


Language studies, be studying the Albanian language, testifies that Albanian have been affected by loanwords from its neighbors. Ie if Albanian would be imported to Balkan, it should then have loanwords or familywords from that geographical area. Why cant any other area then Balkan be connected with Albanian?



The fact is, that archaeological findings shows that people with shepherd's life have been living in Albania isolated without getting assimilated. So, there was conditions for the ancient people in southern Balkan ie Illyria to survive the slavic and other expansions, where they have avoided assimilation and preserved their language intact.

Albi were only one tribe of Illyrians. If today's Albanians are trully members of that particular tribe, what gives you the right to ask for whole territory where Ilyrians were living? You preserved your language by adopting every new master which came this way and therefore were spared from assimilation, killings, getting enslaved and other measures which are following conquests.

Anyway, Firstly you are telling me that Albanian have been heavenly affected by Latin and have loanwords from it's neighbours, and here that they preserved their language intact? Make up your mind...



"What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of
northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the
survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs."
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-Malcolm-Origins-Serbs-Albanians-and-Vlachs
http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html


[QUOTE=Reach;287598]No, absolutely not. Since we do not have any source of Albanian having any other structure then the present one, Noel Malcolm is totally right, ie we can not be Thracians judging by the Citynames.

So, you are basing your proves according to one source, is that what you are telling me :eek:? OMG....

Nobody found Atlantis yet, but that does not mean it's not somewhere out.

I can accept that you are carrying Illyrian genes and that you might be part of Illyrians, but then again, Slavs are here for 1500 years and that gives us the same right, if not even more than you have. Illyrians did not left us much in heritage, while Slavs, especially Serbs had, and especially on Kosovo and Metohija which you are trying so hearthfully to destroy with the help of US and NATO. First time I see you fighting your own battles you will earn my respect and I might even say the right to own Kosovo and Metohija, until then, you are nothing but parasites living on the behalf of others contributions and have the guts to ask something which is not (if it ever was) yours for more than a millennium.


I believe both Monolith and Osweo agreed on the (partially?) Illyrian roots of the Albanian population. No?

Careful, or Reach will start asking for your portion of land too ;)


Osweo is a history genius,

Agree.


but as a Serb lover his biased arse is out of the game. :D

I don't agree, but nevermind....

[poiuytrewq0987]

I googled Shiptar and I got this:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5ew-34i8AE5SwM:http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6246/shiptar9zu5jm.jpg&t=1

:D

[poiuytrewq0987]

Careful, or Reach will start asking for your portion of land too ;)

East Anglia is Albanian!

[Guapo]

Hungary is hungry

[poiuytrewq0987]

Hungary is hungry

for Serbian cock.

[Ushtari]

That is the official date of our coming to Balkans which does not mean that Slavs were not already here, but under different name. According to you, back then you were Illyrians now Albanians, why could not be that the case with Slavs too? We both share genetic traces of proto-Balkan tribes, so I don't see who is giving you the right to decide to whom this area is belonging Anyway, if that was your land, how could somebody else invite us there?
Dont you hear how stupid this sound? there is NOTHING that connects you Slavs with illyrians. With your logic, arabs might claim they are indignious in sweden in 1000 years from now.

And today all Balkan people are mixed with each other. You are not Slavs because of an racial aspect, but due to your language and culture. Same thing goes for us Albanians, we are illyrians due to our language and culture.




Thing that there's no source does not mean it did not happen.
Hahahahaha, this truly made my day:thumb001: well, swedes where maybe black back then;)




Albi were only one tribe of Illyrians. If today's Albanians are trully members of that particular tribe, what gives you the right to ask for whole territory where Ilyrians were living? You preserved your language by adopting every new master which came this way and therefore were spared from assimilation, killings, getting enslaved and other measures which are following conquests.
"Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however--including modern Albania--averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue."

"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one."
http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/283111/Illyrian

Also, do i have to enlight you that the Romans and the Ottomans CAME to our lands and ruled us? No fucking wonder we have loanwords from them.

Anyway, Firstly you are telling me that Albanian have been heavenly affected by Latin and have loanwords from it's neighbours, and here that they preserved their language intact? Make up your mind...
Are you stupid, or just playing dumb?



So, you are basing your proves according to one source, is that what you are telling me :eek:? OMG....
Again, are you stupid or just playing dumb? Noel malcolm is not the only one to state that we most probably are illyrians, but majority of Historians/linguist who are familiar with the subjuct does so also.


I can accept that you are carrying Illyrian genes and that you might be part of Illyrians, but then again, Slavs are here for 1500 years and that gives us the same right, if not even more than you have. Illyrians did not left us much in heritage, while Slavs, especially Serbs had, and especially on Kosovo and Metohija which you are trying so hearthfully to destroy with the help of US and NATO. First time I see you fighting your own battles you will earn my respect and I might even say the right to own Kosovo and Metohija, until then, you are nothing but parasites living on the behalf of others contributions and have the guts to ask something which is not (if it ever was) yours for more than a millennium.
If something, Dardania should belong to the Indigenous people of that area, who also are in majority.

[Guapo]

http://eatthiscity.com/wp-content/upload/1253748724-Cool_story_bro_inc.jpg

[Guapo]

Osweo is a history genius, but as a Serb lover his biased arse is out of the game. :D

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/commie/cool_story_bro.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Tirana is definitely the jewel of Europa.

http://serbianna.com/analysis/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/islam_albania1.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

VS Belgrade i.e. Fourth Rome

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9603/beograd7ur.jpg

As far as I'm concerned, Albanians are the niggers of Europe and should be expelled to Anatolia to copulate with their Turkish brothers. Albania should be split into two parts, Serbian Albania and Greek Albania then the land there won't be wasted on the Albanian untermensch anymore.

[Radojica]

Dont you hear how stupid this sound? there is NOTHING that connects you Slavs with illyrians. With your logic, arabs might claim they are indignious in sweden in 1000 years from now.

You are stupid when you read that i connected Slavs with Illyrians. I have never done so. What I wrote is that tribes were migrating all over Europe meaning that Slavs already were on Balkans before official date.


And today all Balkan people are mixed with each other. You are not Slavs because of an racial aspect, but due to your language and culture. Same thing goes for us Albanians, we are illyrians due to our language and culture.

Mixing between Slavic tribes does not count, you stupid fuck! Maybe you are mixed, but when tribes from the same meta ethnicity mix among themselves, there's nothing to loose for Christ sake.

Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosnian(K)s are Slavs, like it or not, not Yugoslavs, as you probably think.





Hahahahaha, this truly made my day:thumb001: well, swedes where maybe black back then;)

You know it the best, you tell me :)



bla, bla, bla

You started to act like true Albanian. One more ad homiem against (AND YOU maDE two just in the last post) and I swear to God, I'll make you sorry for your decision to come here an spread your Great Albania bullshit.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosnian(K)s are Slavs, like it or not, not Yugoslavs, as you probably think.

Bosniaks are Serbs/Croats in denial.

[Red&Black]

VS Belgrade i.e. Fourth Rome

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9603/beograd7ur.jpg

As far as I'm concerned, Albanians are the niggers of Europe and should be expelled to Anatolia to copulate with their Turkish brothers. Albania should be split into two parts, Serbian Albania and Greek Albania then the land there won't be wasted on the Albanian untermensch anymore.

I see that the serbian mentality has not changed so much in the last 200 years.

"A lie, trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively."
Dobrisa Cosic

Speaking on turkish brothers, did you know that serbs have most in common genetically speaking with the turks of all the balkan people living there?:thumbs up

Read and learn my imbecill friend....
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf

[The Lawspeaker]

I am more and more beginning to think that we bombed the wrong w.nkers back in '99 (sorry Tonsor).

[poiuytrewq0987]

I see that the serbian mentality has not changed so much in the last 200 years.

"A lie, trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively."
Dobrisa Cosic

Speaking on turkish brothers, did you know that serbs have most in common genetically speaking with the turks of all the balkan people living there?:thumbs up

Read and learn my imbecill friend....
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf


Nope, that's the Shipoopers. Now don't you got to pray to Allah or something. I think you're late to the local mosque near you in Pristina.

[Guapo]

I see that the serbian mentality has not changed so much in the last 200 years.

"A lie, trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively."
Dobrisa Cosic

Speaking on turkish brothers, did you know that serbs have most in common genetically speaking with the turks of all the balkan people living there?:thumbs up

Read and learn my imbecill friend....
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf

Marcus Marulus? Shouldn't you be calling Spaniards niggers or smthing.

[Radojica]

Marcus Marulus?

Most probably, since I doubt there's an Albanian who have heard for Dobrica Cosic :)

[Ushtari]

You are stupid when you read that i connected Slavs with Illyrians. I have never done so. What I wrote is that tribes were migrating all over Europe meaning that Slavs already were on Balkans before official date.
Omg, filthy SHKA shows he's logic again... There is NOTHING who tell us that slavs inhabited Balkans before 600's-800's, you see?


Mixing between Slavic tribes does not count, you stupid fuck! Maybe you are mixed, but when tribes from the same meta ethnicity mix among themselves, there's nothing to loose for Christ sake.

Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosnian(K)s are Slavs, like it or not, not Yugoslavs, as you probably think.
Hahahah what a filthy SHKA excuse, like if you didnt get my point:rolleyes:

SERBS/BOSNIAKS/CROATS and the rest of the SLAVS in balkan, are today mixed with everybody living in that place, that include Albanians(Illyrians) also. Therefor you can not say Albanians are illyrians or Serbs Slavs due to a racial aspect, you see?

[Aemma]

Guys, keep the tone civil please. Keep name calling out of the debate please and make your points based on facts and figures.

It's a forum for debate and discussion, not a forum for personally attacking others.

Thank you~Aemma

[Ushtari]

Guys, keep the tone civil please. Keep name calling out of the debate please and make your points based on facts and figures.

It's a forum for debate and discussion, not a forum for personally attacking others.

Thank you~Aemma
Of course, unfortunately these Serbs wont accept facts, so they troll instead.

[Aemma]

Of course, unfortunately these Serbs wont accept facts, so they troll instead.

Ok no need to escalate matters, Reach. Let's move onto other areas of the debate/discussion now please.

:)

[poiuytrewq0987]

God save Kosovo and Metohija!

[Guapo]

God save Kosovo and Metohija!

God save.

[Radojica]

Of course, unfortunately these Serbs wont accept facts, so they troll instead.

Kosovo is Serbia, how about accepting that fact :coffee:?

[Ushtari]

Kosovo is Serbia, how about accepting that fact :coffee:?
No, no last time i checked, it was an independent country.

http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/

[Monolith]

Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Bosnian(K)s are Slavs, like it or not, not Yugoslavs, as you probably think.
In your face, Vojn! :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

In your face, Vojn! :D

Don't care :)

[Red&Black]

You serbians which constantly spam this thread with imaginatory messages like "Kosovo is Serbia" must have some kind of a self denial manual. I can not say it better than your former president Dobrica Cosic did.

"A lie, trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively."

Maybe it is your turkish gens speaking i don't know, but one thing is for sure. You people don't live in the reality of todays world.

Keep living in your imaginatory world and keep getting orgasms when shouting "Kosovo is serbia" for as long as you wan't, I don't mind a bit, I actually find it hilarious. ;)

[Arya Stark]

Shqipëria është një vend shumë të bukur, pavarësisht nga ajo që njerëzit zakonisht mendojnë

[Guapo]

You serbians which constantly spam this thread with imaginatory messages like "Kosovo is Serbia" must have some kind of a self denial manual. I can not say it better than your former president Dobrica Cosic did.

"A lie, trait of our patriotism" “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively."

Maybe it is your turkish gens speaking i don't know, but one thing is for sure. You people don't live in the reality of todays world.

Keep living in your imaginatory world and keep getting orgasms when shouting "Kosovo is serbia" for as long as you wan't, I don't mind a bit, I actually find it hilarious. ;)

location: stockhlom lol. If you love Kosovo so much then why don't you go live there, fucking immigrants.

[Ushtari]

location: stockhlom lol. If you love Kosovo so much then why don't you go live there, fucking immigrants.

Hahaha its so funny to see when serbs get fucked, they immediately start to troll:D

[Guapo]

Hahaha its so funny to see when serbs get fucked, they immediately start to troll:D

Connecting to server...
You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

Reach: Sup dood
Guapo: I herd u were a faggot

Your conversational partner has disconnected.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Hahaha its so funny to see when serbs get fucked, they immediately start to troll:D

We have better things to do than discuss with mental midgets who keep ranting about Paleobalkan crap.

[Ushtari]

We have better things to do than discuss with mental midgets who keep ranting about Paleobalkan crap.
Yeah right...:rolleyes:

[Osweo]

ANYWAY. Let's start again;

As I see it, Albanian ethnogenesis as such, was roughly coeval with those of the present Slavonic and Romance Balkanites.

All peoples concerned had earlier ancestors - some from the region, some from elsewhere, in different proportions for each group - but present identities have little in common with those of the ancient Classical period.

Albanians, Serbs and Croats all have Palaeobalkan, Celtic, Roman etc. ancestors from the area prior to the formation of the Slavonic kingdoms. In the Albanian case, there is greater linguistic continuity, although the exact source is unclear.

(I say greater, as I'm unsure how much present Jugoslav and Vlach languages owe to an ancient Balkan substratum. I know that Rumanian has quite a bit of lexica from this quarter (shared with Albanian to some extent) but I would expect that Serbian has also experienced some impact - perhaps in syntax, phonetics? Naturally, I make parallels with the situation of my Germanic language on this Celtic island.)

Though Albanians keep something of the language, this is unquestionably in a highly altered form, and other aspects of Albanian culture are probably quite alien to their Palaeobalkan ancestors, and have been formed or borrowed in the intervening centuries.

In this way, Albanian 'indigenousness' from Illyrian times is rather fantastical a concept. The inhabitants back then had probably never heard the word for 'Eagle' applied as an ethnonym.

Adoption of the name Shqiperia or whatever is the time when we can more realistically start talking about ties to a region, and it seems that Serbs were already around in Kosovo at that point, no?

(It would be interesting to know WHERE the present Albanian ethnonym was adopted, and how it was gradually adopted by the other remaining Palaeobalkan speakers... Are the Gheg and Tosk names older, I wonder? Are the clan names the oldest of all?)

[Red&Black]

ANYWAY. Let's start again;

As I see it, Albanian ethnogenesis as such, was roughly coeval with those of the present Slavonic and Romance Balkanites.


:eek:



All peoples concerned had earlier ancestors - some from the region, some from elsewhere, in different proportions for each group - but present identities have little in common with those of the ancient Classical period.

True, that people are mixed genetically, but the Illyrian language and culture has not all vanished.


Albanians, Serbs and Croats all have Palaeobalkan, Celtic, Roman etc. ancestors from the area prior to the formation of the Slavonic kingdoms. In the Albanian case, there is greater linguistic continuity, although the exact source is unclear.

I have never said that the slavs dosent have Celtic, Illyrian or Roman ancestors, but those ancestors took an identity, a slav one this time.
Unclear in what way?


(I say greater, as I'm unsure how much present Jugoslav and Vlach languages owe to an ancient Balkan substratum. I know that Rumanian has quite a bit of lexica from this quarter (shared with Albanian to some extent) but I would expect that Serbian has also experienced some impact - perhaps in syntax, phonetics? Naturally, I make parallels with the situation of my Germanic language on this Celtic island.)

Dont talk bs.......
Give me one reliable source about that the serbian language "experinced" an illyrian influence....


Though Albanians keep something of the language, this is unquestionably in a highly altered form, and other aspects of Albanian culture are probably quite alien to their Palaeobalkan ancestors, and have been formed or borrowed in the intervening centuries.

If it were so highly altered as you say my friend it should never had its on branch on the indoeuropean family tree.
I can agree with you to some extent on this question because languages and culture do change with time and especially under occupation time.
But to say that the Albanian language and culture are all taken like you do is a sign of ignorans and Xenophobia.

"Regarding the classification of the Albanian language, it forms a separate branch of Indo-European, first attested in the 15th century, apparently based on the wider Paleo-Balkans group of antiquity."

"Many of what remain as attested words to Illyrian have an Albanian explanation and also a number of Illyrian lexical items (toponyms, hydronyms, oronyms, anthroponyms, etc.) have been linked to Albanian.[46]"

Borrowed words (e.g. Gk (NW) "device, instrument" mākhaná > *mokër "millstone" Gk (NW) drápanon > *drapër "sickle" etc.) from Greek language date back before the Christian era[45] and are mostly of Doric dialect of Greek language,[47] which means that the ancestors of the Albanians were in Northwestern part of Ancient Greek civilization and probably borrowed them from Greek cities (Dyrrachium, Apollonia, etc.) in the Illyrian territory, colonies which belonged to the Doric division of Greek, or from the contacts in Epirus area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language
Due to the lack of illyrian data the theory can not be proven, but it is the only one that is build in a very clear serious way.

The two main Illyrian cults were the Cult of the Sun and the Cult of the Snake. The main festivals were the seasonal summer and winter festivals during the solstices and the spring and autumn festivals during the equinoxes.
An organic system of assigning human personifications to natural phenomena was culturally developed and remnants of these still appear in everyday Albanian folklore and tradition.

The original culture continued until the late Roman and Byzantine Empires crowned Christianity as official religion of the regime, thus suffusing Paganism, until both were later overshadowed by Islam, which kept the sceptre of the major religion during the period of Ottoman Turkish occupation of major urban centers from the 15th century until year 1912 when Albanians gets their independence



In this way, Albanian 'indigenousness' from Illyrian times is rather fantastical a concept. The inhabitants back then had probably never heard the word for 'Eagle' applied as an ethnonym.

Dosent matter what prejudices you have against albanians, albanians together with the greeks are indigenous people down there in the Balkans in terms of culture and language.

"Archangel also known as the Holy Bird is a sacred bird believed to have been worshiped by Illyrians years before the Christ. This bird is found only in the Illyrian occupied territories, modern Albania and Kosovo. The scientific name of the bird comes from the Greek language around 100 AD, they called it Columba Ilyrica"
http://wikibin.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-albanian-flag.html


Adoption of the name Shqiperia or whatever is the time when we can more realistically start talking about ties to a region, and it seems that Serbs were already around in Kosovo at that point, no?

Huh, the name Shqiperia and shqipetar is a transition period that happend after the death of our grat nationalhero Gjërgj Kastrioti, before we albanian called ourselves arbëreshë.

"Prior to the Ottoman invasion of Albania, the native people in the area of Albania were all called Arbëreshë. After some were forced[citation needed] out of their homeland to Italy, these Italian-born Albanians continued to use the term Arbëresh whilst those in Albania called themselves Shqiptarë (compare the Albanian word Shqip, present in the local name for the country and the language). "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB


(It would be interesting to know WHERE the present Albanian ethnonym was adopted, and how it was gradually adopted by the other remaining Palaeobalkan speakers... Are the Gheg and Tosk names older, I wonder? Are the clan names the oldest of all?)

Yes the Gheg dialect is assumed to be older and Gheg is a possible source of tosk but all indications are that this last one was split from the proto-IE itself before the other major Europian languages being split, meanwhile the gheg conserved all the characteristics of the PIE. It means that Gheg is older than Tosk but both are dialects of one unique language, the Albanian

[Guapo]

Tonsor/Marcus.

[Osweo]

Why do Albanians always call you 'friend' before they start spouting bullshit and abuse at you?

[Heretik]

Why do Albanians always call you 'friend' before they start spouting bullshit and abuse at you?

Look, friend, no need for harsh words. :thumbs up

[Osweo]

:tsk:

Responding to bullshit is harder work than making it up, or copying and pasting it from a bullshit source. ;)

I'll reply to RnB tomorrow.

[Red&Black]

:tsk:

Responding to bullshit is harder work than making it up, or copying and pasting it from a bullshit source. ;)

I'll reply to RnB tomorrow.
:thumb001:

[Guapo]

:thumb001:

:rolleyes:

[Ushtari]

All peoples concerned had earlier ancestors - some from the region, some from elsewhere, in different proportions for each group - but present identities have little in common with those of the ancient Classical period.
True


Albanians, Serbs and Croats all have Palaeobalkan, Celtic, Roman etc. ancestors from the area prior to the formation of the Slavonic kingdoms. In the Albanian case, there is greater linguistic continuity, although the exact source is unclear.
True, except that our identity is indigenous to the area, while slavic is not.


(I say greater, as I'm unsure how much present Jugoslav and Vlach languages owe to an ancient Balkan substratum. I know that Rumanian has quite a bit of lexica from this quarter (shared with Albanian to some extent) but I would expect that Serbian has also experienced some impact - perhaps in syntax, phonetics? Naturally, I make parallels with the situation of my Germanic language on this Celtic island.)
No, slavic languages have nothing in common with paleobalkan language, like day and night you know.


Though Albanians keep something of the language, this is unquestionably in a highly altered form, and other aspects of Albanian culture are probably quite alien to their Palaeobalkan ancestors, and have been formed or borrowed in the intervening centuries.
Like what?


In this way, Albanian 'indigenousness' from Illyrian times is rather fantastical a concept. The inhabitants back then had probably never heard the word for 'Eagle' applied as an ethnonym.

Adoption of the name Shqiperia or whatever is the time when we can more realistically start talking about ties to a region, and it seems that Serbs were already around in Kosovo at that point, no?
"Not long after these barbarian invaders swept through the Balkans, the Slavs appeared. Between the 6th and 8th centuries they settled in Illyrian territories and proceeded to assimilate Illyrian tribes in much of what is now Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Serbia. The tribes of southern Illyria, however--including modern Albania--averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue."

"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one."

"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."

Nationbuilding in the Balkans (http://pbosnia.kentlaw.edu/resources/history/albania/albhist.htm)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/129453/History?anchor=ref476150

[Eldritch]

I want to go on record as having the opinion that no-one has the right to be triumphalist about his/her own ethnic group finally having a nation-state of their own, unless they actually live there, or at the very least are making concrete plans to relocate there in the very near future.

[Ushtari]

I want to go on record as having the opinion that no-one has the right to be triumphalist about his/her own ethnic group finally having a nation-state of their own, unless they actually live there, or at the very least are making concrete plans to relocate there in the very near future.

Kosovo belong to who ever lives there, no doubt about that. But Serbs lost the right to rule Kosovo when they decided to force about 800.000 people from their home, kill about 10.000 people etc.

[Osweo]

True, that people are mixed genetically, but the Illyrian language and culture has not all vanished.
Illyrian has vanished. So have Common Celtic, Proto Germanic, Balto-Slavonic and Latin. Illyrian culture survives partially among you, but ALSO among your Slavonicised and Romanised (and Hellenised?) neighbours.

I have never said that the slavs dosent have Celtic, Illyrian or Roman ancestors, but those ancestors took an identity, a slav one this time.
The Slav identity wasn't fully adopted. There are local elements. Serbs are not simply Slovaks who live in the Balkans.

Unclear in what way?
Illyrian vs. Thracian, exactly which subgroup of them and where...

Dont talk bs.......
Give me one reliable source about that the serbian language "experinced" an illyrian influence....
I am not qualified to answer that, but neither are you to dismiss it. Slavs asimilated some Illyrians, it's therefore VERY likely that there will have been some influence on phonetics and syntax etc. I have heard of the 'Balkan sprachbund' on such matters, but I can't give any more details. I will just say that such influences are nigh on inevitable in contact zones.

If it were so highly altered as you say my friend it should never had its on branch on the indoeuropean family tree.
Nonsense. It would HAVE to have altered the way I implied. PIE didn't work like modern ALbanian. The more inflected type of language I invoked is closer to the original. My very dear friend.

I can agree with you to some extent on this question because languages and culture do change with time and especially under occupation time.
But to say that the Albanian language and culture are all taken like you do is a sign of ignorans and Xenophobia.
I did not say ALL of your language and culture were 'taken'. :rolleyes: Are you unable to tell the difference between criticism of certain points and complete attacks on you? :rolleyes:
Why do you give xenophobia a capital? To make it seem even more shocking and wicked? :rotfl: If you knew anything about me you'd know that was absurd (as far as Europeans aare concerned).

"Regarding the classification of the Albanian language, it forms a separate branch of Indo-European, first attested in the 15th century, apparently based on the wider Paleo-Balkans group of antiquity."]
As though I don't know that.... :shrug:

"Many of what remain as attested words to Illyrian have an Albanian explanation and also a number of Illyrian lexical items (toponyms, hydronyms, oronyms, anthroponyms, etc.) have been linked to Albanian.[46]"
ALL that is HIGHLY disputed.

Due to the lack of illyrian data the theory can not be proven, but it is the only one that is build in a very clear serious way.
I always thought it the most likely, but I will not have it spoken of as 'proven fact'.

The two main Illyrian cults were the Cult of the Sun and the Cult of the Snake. The main festivals were the seasonal summer and winter festivals during the solstices and the spring and autumn festivals during the equinoxes.
An organic system of assigning human personifications to natural phenomena was culturally developed and remnants of these still appear in everyday Albanian folklore and tradition.
... and are near universal in Europe and much of the world beyond too. :rolleyes:

Dosent matter what prejudices you have against albanians, albanians together with the greeks are indigenous people down there in the Balkans in terms of culture and language.
I don't question it. I DO question the peculiar moral aspects you seem to attach to the term 'indigenous'. :rolleyes:

"Archangel also known as the Holy Bird is a sacred bird believed to have been worshiped by Illyrians years before the Christ. This bird is found only in the Illyrian occupied territories,
lol

modern Albania and Kosovo. The scientific name of the bird comes from the Greek language around 100 AD, they called it Columba Ilyrica"
http://wikibin.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-albanian-flag.html
Er, is this trivia supposed to 'prove' anything?

Huh, the name Shqiperia and shqipetar is a transition period that happend after the death of our grat nationalhero Gjërgj Kastrioti, before we albanian called ourselves arbëreshë.
AH NOW!!! :clap:
This IS significant!!!

Your national name is a novelty!!! And yet you talk as though you stepped straight from pre-ROman Illyria! :p

"Prior to the Ottoman invasion of Albania, the native people in the area of Albania were all called Arbëreshë. After some were forced[citation needed] out of their homeland to Italy, these Italian-born Albanians continued to use the term Arbëresh whilst those in Albania called themselves Shqiptarë (compare the Albanian word Shqip, present in the local name for the country and the language). "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB
Yep. DId the movement to Greece take place at the same time or later?

Yes the Gheg dialect is assumed to be older and Gheg is a possible source of tosk but all indications are that this last one was split from the proto-IE itself before the other major Europian languages being split, meanwhile the gheg conserved all the characteristics of the PIE. It means that Gheg is older than Tosk but both are dialects of one unique language, the Albanian
That is the stupidest idiotic thing I've read all day. Do I really HAVE to explain why? :rolleyes:

True
I know. THat's why I said it.

True, except that our identity is indigenous to the area, while slavic is not.
Your identity is not the same as that of a 2nd Century BC Illyrian. It's as old as the Serbian identity, or younger. You're both products of the dislocation after the fall of the Roman Empire.

No, slavic languages have nothing in common with paleobalkan language, like day and night you know.
Unthinking dogma.

Like what?
Like all sorts of things that you probably know as little as I do, like types of clothing, dances, designs of ploughs or carts, you name it. Nowadays though, you probably have the same tvs and houses and shoes as everyone, though.

"The tribes of southern Illyria, however--including modern Albania--averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue."
'Averted' sounds FAR too active. They probably 'just happened to miss it' more like. :rolleyes:

"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new Albanian one."
That's exactly what I've been saying in the last ten posts or so.

"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way
Actually, we have little or no proof that it was EVER in widespread native use at all.

to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century AD by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."
Exactly what I've been saying.

Interesting that the source doesn't provide a date for these shifts, however. Probably distressingly late...

[Ushtari]

Your identity is not the same as that of a 2nd Century BC Illyrian. It's as old as the Serbian identity, or younger. You're both products of the dislocation after the fall of the Roman Empire.
Again, our identity is indigenous to the area, while slavic is not.


Unthinking dogma.
Little amount of traces can everybody have, it still does not change the fact that they speak a language that invaded balkan 1500years ago. The Albanian language is developed from a paleobalkan language, thats the different. You cant come and say that Slavs have more connection to the paleobalkan, when Albanians have preserved their language, ie they have not got assimilated like other people in balkan. For example Vlachs, they speak a Romance language but they have also preserved paleobalkan substratum wich testifies that they got assimilated. Albanians have prevent this assimilation, therefor you can not make such comparison.


Like all sorts of things that you probably know as little as I do, like types of clothing, dances, designs of ploughs or carts, you name it. Nowadays though, you probably have the same tvs and houses and shoes as everyone, though.
Everyone have adopted, but all traditions and culture are not adopted. Also, you can not expect that all folklore of europe is indigenous. I mean, in a period of 2000years, imagine how much new influences and contact with new people. Think of Celts 500bc and compare with celts 1000years later. Do they have exactly the same culture? no because with time people come in contact with new things and get new influences. Of course you preserve some of the ancient, but not all. Its all natural. For example, Balkan have been much influenced by the Turks, 500years of Turkish presence have actually left its mark, culturally.


Actually, we have little or no proof that it was EVER in widespread native use at all.
"From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."


Interesting that the source doesn't provide a date for these shifts, however. Probably distressingly late...
Why dont you call them and ask? or wait, the whole world is in a agenda against serbs...:coffee:

[Osweo]

Again, our identity is indigenous to the area, while slavic is not.
Like how English is not indigenous to England? Serbian mustn't be indigenous to Serbia. LoL

By your standards, a Welshman could say that to me. I'd laugh in his face and tell him to fuck off.

Little amount of traces can everybody have, it still does not change the fact that they speak a language that invaded balkan 1500years ago.
Exactly like English in Britain. :rolleyes:

You cant come and say that Slavs have more connection to the paleobalkan, when Albanians have preserved their language,
I didn't. :rolleyes:

Think of Celts 500bc and compare with celts 1000years later. Do they have exactly the same culture? no because with time people come in contact with new things and get new influences. Of course you preserve some of the ancient, but not all. Its all natural.
Good analogy. The first Celts were living in Austria and Bohemia. The later ones were in the British Isles. The genetic link between them is very tenuous. A little more extreme than the Illyrian > Shiptar one, but perhaps not TOO much...

"From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage."
Why on Earth did it take them so long?

[Radojica]

Kosovo belong to who ever lives there, no doubt about that. But Serbs lost the right to rule Kosovo when they decided to force about 800.000 people from their home, kill about 10.000 people etc.

No doubt about that? Serbs lost the right to rule over Kosovo in 1999? Serbs expelled some 800.000 Albanians that's true, but only after aggression started, not before and that is the fact known to the world. Before aggression there was inland dispersion but not only of Albanians, but also Serbs, Roma's, Montenegrin.s and Goran's.

Speaking about the number of death people, there was on both sides no more than 4000 of dead people, both civilians and armed men and that since terrorists attacks in February of 1998 started until the end of the conflict in June 1999. One thing which is confusing is that UCK was attacking Serbian armed forces in civilian clothes without any marks which was shown as Serbian slaughtering of civilians. I don't deny there were killings, but on both sides, which is you denying. That only shows who you are and who am I ;).

from June 1999-2010:

More than 250.000 expelled Serbs, more than 1500 killed, some 500 kidnapped and possibly dead, 300 who were slaughtered for organs, tens of monasteries and churches completely or partially destroyed and it is still happening. Serbs are living in ghettos without electricity and water, while you were never paying anything of that and had it all the time.

If you want to cry, cry on some other place where the other side cannot discredit your whining.

[Guapo]

ez2guFXsKGg

[Monolith]

(I say greater, as I'm unsure how much present Jugoslav and Vlach languages owe to an ancient Balkan substratum. I know that Rumanian has quite a bit of lexica from this quarter (shared with Albanian to some extent) but I would expect that Serbian has also experienced some impact - perhaps in syntax, phonetics?
From what I've read, it would appear that only Torlak dialect is a product of a somewhat weaker Slavicisation of some paleobalkan population, so it has consequently retained much of the pre-Slavic traits while the rest of Serbian has not.

Torlak:
http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Torlak_dialects_map.png&sa=X&ei=T3nJTJSsN4eTswbW08yFDg&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHlJa5c4va5J2dLFd4cpzSTlTpShg
It used to be spoken over most of contemporary Kosovo in the more distant past.

[Red&Black]

Illyrian has vanished. So have Common Celtic, Proto Germanic, Balto-Slavonic and Latin. Illyrian culture survives partially among you, but ALSO among your Slavonicised and Romanised (and Hellenised?) neighbours.

The Illyrian language is not vanished, it lives on in the albanian language.
In what way does it survive through our neighbours?



The Slav identity wasn't fully adopted. There are local elements. Serbs are not simply Slovaks who live in the Balkans.

What local elements are you talking about?


Illyrian vs. Thracian, exactly which subgroup of them and where...

The Illyrian is the only serious and credible one.


I am not qualified to answer that, but neither are you to dismiss it. Slavs asimilated some Illyrians, it's therefore VERY likely that there will have been some influence on phonetics and syntax etc. I have heard of the 'Balkan sprachbund' on such matters, but I can't give any more details. I will just say that such influences are nigh on inevitable in contact zones.

Why are you talking shit then about something you aint qualified to answer and then slam the blame on me?
I can dissmiss this as bullshit as long as you or your little hord of orchs in this forum can't prove it with reliable and serious sources.


Nonsense. It would HAVE to have altered the way I implied. PIE didn't work like modern ALbanian. The more inflected type of language I invoked is closer to the original. My very dear friend.

Nonsense and total irrelevant on the subject.....


I did not say ALL of your language and culture were 'taken'. :rolleyes: Are you unable to tell the difference between criticism of certain points and complete attacks on you? :rolleyes:

You gave a hint that it was....


Why do you give xenophobia a capital? To make it seem even more shocking and wicked? :rotfl: If you knew anything about me you'd know that was absurd (as far as Europeans aare concerned).

I know your kind, you dont have to convince me something else.


ALL that is HIGHLY disputed.

I rather belive this sources than your sorry pale white ass.


I always thought it the most likely, but I will not have it spoken of as 'proven fact'.

It is not proven, but it is most likeley that it is the Illyrians who are the ancestors to the albanian people.


... and are near universal in Europe and much of the world beyond too. :rolleyes:

Thinks which you dont have a clue about, dont talk about.
Albanian culture clearly have a lot of different pagan folklore and tradition.


Your national name is a novelty!!! And yet you talk as though you stepped straight from pre-ROman Illyria! :p

Yes the term shqipetar for the albanian people came after Gjërgj Kastrioti died and to unite all arbereshë under Kastriotis eagle flag, they took the shqipetar identity which exactly mean "people of the eagle". That we took this name dosen't prove nothing and the arbereshë, albanian, shqipetar, aranaut, alvanos or whatever are all the same.


Yep. DId the movement to Greece take place at the same time or later?

To Grecce? You must mean Italy and the movement down to Italy took place in different waves of migration.


The Arbëreshë arrived in Southern Italy in several waves of migrations, from the 15th to 18th century AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB


That is the stupidest idiotic thing I've read all day. Do I really HAVE to explain why? :rolleyes:

Yes explain it to me, please.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Illyrian language is not vanished, it lives on in the albanian language.
In what way does it survive through our neighbours?


Modern Greeks are probably the only ethnic group in the Balkans that can claim direct lineage to ancient Greeks (direct lineage of their ancestors, the others can't do the same). You don't see present-day Italians claiming to be direct descendants of ancient Romans (when Italy is mostly made up of Germanitalohellenic mix of peoples) or present-day Bulgarians claiming direct lineage to ancient Thracians...

The Albanian identity didn't even exist until well into the middle of the medieval era. There isn't even real continunation of the Illyrian identity into an Albanian one.

[Red&Black]

Modern Greeks are probably the only ethnic group in the Balkans that can claim direct lineage to ancient Greeks (direct lineage of their ancestors, the others can't do the same). You don't see present-day Italians claiming to be direct descendants of ancient Romans (when Italy is mostly made up of Germanitalohellenic mix of peoples) or present-day Bulgarians claiming direct lineage to ancient Thracians...

The Albanian identity didn't even exist until well into the middle of the medieval era. There isn't even real continunation of the Illyrian identity into an Albanian one.

Give me sources that the albanian identity didnt exist untill the middle of the medieval era. No serbian one thanks, it shall be a source which is reliable and serious....If you cant give me this then shut the fuck up and stop lying....
:coffee:

[Ushtari]

Like how English is not indigenous to England? Serbian mustn't be indigenous to Serbia. LoL
Our original home is Balkan, Serbs original home is not balkan:) simple as that.


By your standards, a Welshman could say that to me. I'd laugh in his face and tell him to fuck off.
The difference here is that Serbs are obsessed with being superior, wich is the reason why they went berserk against their neighbors.

But, this thread is about OUR indigenousness.


Good analogy. The first Celts were living in Austria and Bohemia. The later ones were in the British Isles. The genetic link between them is very tenuous. A little more extreme than the Illyrian > Shiptar one, but perhaps not TOO much...

You got my point.


Why on Earth did it take them so long?
Maybe the phone line was down:coffee:

[Radojica]

Give me sources that the albanian identity didnt exist untill the middle of the medieval era. No serbian one thanks, it shall be a source which is reliable and serious....If you cant give me this then shut the fuck up and stop lying....
:coffee:



Albanians are a native Balkan people, although their exact origin is unclear. The national ideology insists on an unequivocal ethnic relationship with the ancient Illyrians. As little is known about the Illyrians and there are no historical records referring to the existence of the Albanian people during the first millennium C . E ., it is difficult to affirm or deny the relationship. Albanians entered postclassical recorded history in the second half of the eleventh century, and only in this age can one speak with any degree of certainty about the Albanian people as they are known today. In his History written in 1079–1080, the Byzantine historian Michael Attaleiates was the first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Similarly, the historian John Scylitzes refers (ca. 1081) to the Arbanites as forming part of the troops assembled in Durrës by Nicephorus Basilacius. It can be assumed that the Albanians began expanding from their mountain homeland in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, initially taking possession of the northern and central coastline and by the thirteenth century spreading southward toward what are now southern Albania and western Macedonia. In the middle of the fourteenth century, they migrated farther south into Greece, initially into Epirus, Thessaly (1320), Acarnania, and Aetolia. By the middle of the fifteenth century, which marks the end of this process of colonization, the Albanians had settled in over half of Greece in such great numbers that in many regions they constituted the majority of the population.

http://www.everyculture.com/A-Bo/Albania.html




:coffee:

[Ushtari]

Illyrian vs. Thracian, exactly which subgroup of them and where...
No, its not "unclear", its very obvious. We have Thracians citynames who are totally against the structure of our language and we also have a small Thracian text wich is Alien to Albanian.

[Red&Black]

No doubt about that? Serbs lost the right to rule over Kosovo in 1999? Serbs expelled some 800.000 Albanians that's true, but only after aggression started, not before and that is the fact known to the world. Before aggression there was inland dispersion but not only of Albanians, but also Serbs, Roma's, Montenegrin.s and Goran's.

Bullshit, the albanians was expelled and persecuated systematically from the begining of the 1990 to Albania and the western countries.
50.000 albanians fled to Albania before Nato started bombing the terrorist state of Slobodan Milosevic.


Speaking about the number of death people, there was on both sides no more than 4000 of dead people, both civilians and armed men and that since terrorists attacks in February of 1998 started until the end of the conflict in June 1999.

You guys are like professional liers, Damn.
It is widely known that the number of deaths is 10.000+, where a majority were ethnic albanian civilians.


One thing which is confusing is that UCK was attacking Serbian armed forces in civilian clothes without any marks which was shown as Serbian slaughtering of civilians. I don't deny there were killings, but on both sides, which is you denying. That only shows who you are and who am I ;).

Nobody has ever denied that albanians have not commited crimes in Kosovo against the serbian population, but they were just a little drip in the sea of what the serbian forces and paramilitarys did down there. You cant compare random killings of civilian serbs by albanians with systematically and planned murders and ethnic cleansning against the civilian albanian population by serbian military forces.



More than 250.000 expelled Serbs,

They can return whenever they want, they just dont want to do that.


more than 1500 killed, some 500 kidnapped and possibly dead

Dont lie.


According to Human Rights Watch, as "many as one thousand Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing since 12 June 1999."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War


300 who were slaughtered for organs,

Ahh the "Yellow house", the propaganda myth created by serbs:thumb001:


In May 2010 Matti Raatikainen, head of the war crimes unit of EULEX, the European Law and Justice Mission in Kosovo, said: "The fact is that there is no evidence whatsoever in this case...No bodies. No witnesses. All the reports and media attention to this issue have not been helpful to us. In fact they have not been helpful to anyone." He said that the scandal created by the allegations has distracted attention from the real work of finding the remains of 1,861 people still missing from the war and its aftermath, and prosecuting their killers - in Serbia, Kosovo and Albania. According to EULEX, 2,244 bodies have been identified in Kosovo since 2001. Of these 301 were "non-Albanian"
EULEX’s war crime unit has asked to see the evidence held by the Serbian prosecutor but has received no positive answer. This is in contrast to other investigations by EULEX in which Belgrade officials have helped with witnesses and evidence.
According to a EULEX source, an organ harvesting operation would have required sophisticated logistics beyond what a small farmhouse in remote northern Albania could have provided.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo


tens of monasteries and churches completely or partially destroyed and it is still happening.

cry me a river.....
What about 100+ mosques you serbs burned to the ground.


Serbs are living in ghettos without electricity and water, while you were never paying anything of that and had it all the time.

What you talking about you fool, I hope you realize that most of Kosovos population have it hard with electricity power, it is not only the serbs but all of the population in Kosovo.

[Red&Black]

Albanians are a native Balkan people, although their exact origin is unclear. The national ideology insists on an unequivocal ethnic relationship with the ancient Illyrians. As little is known about the Illyrians and there are no historical records referring to the existence of the Albanian people during the first millennium C . E ., it is difficult to affirm or deny the relationship. Albanians entered postclassical recorded history in the second half of the eleventh century, and only in this age can one speak with any degree of certainty about the Albanian people as they are known today. In his History written in 1079–1080, the Byzantine historian Michael Attaleiates was the first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Similarly, the historian John Scylitzes refers (ca. 1081) to the Arbanites as forming part of the troops assembled in Durrës by Nicephorus Basilacius. It can be assumed that the Albanians began expanding from their mountain homeland in the eleventh and twelfth centuries, initially taking possession of the northern and central coastline and by the thirteenth century spreading southward toward what are now southern Albania and western Macedonia. In the middle of the fourteenth century, they migrated farther south into Greece, initially into Epirus, Thessaly (1320), Acarnania, and Aetolia. By the middle of the fifteenth century, which marks the end of this process of colonization, the Albanians had settled in over half of Greece in such great numbers that in many regions they constituted the majority of the population.


:thumb001:

[Monolith]

Our original home is Balkan, Serbs original home is not balkan:) simple as that.
ROTFuckingLMAO

Even if you totally disregard the fact that present South Slavic countries have been the original home of the local Slavs for millennium and a half, it is still evident that great many of them descend from Slavicised paleobalkanic natives, especially those who live southeast of Bosnia.

[Ushtari]

ROTFuckingLMAO

Even if you totally disregard the fact that present South Slavic countries have been the original home of the local Slavs for millennium and a half, it is still evident that great many of them descend from Slavicised paleobalkanic natives, especially those who live southeast of Bosnia.
You really did not get my point. I dont have any problem with slavs living in balkan, i mean you have been living there for about 1500years. What my problem is, is Slavs who think they are superior and steel our lands.

Still, your identity is not indigenous to balkan, but was imported(wich we also have sources on)

[Osweo]

I can dissmiss this as bullshit as long as you or your little hord of orchs in this forum can't prove it with reliable and serious sources.
Yawn... I won't repeat myself. I'll just respond to this;

To Grecce? You must mean Italy and the movement down to Italy took place in different waves of migration.
The area round Athens and much of the Peloponese is inhabited by ethnic Albanians (now largely Hellenised, I believe). They don't identify as Shiptars, and thus may have moved out of the home region before Castrioti's day. I was wondering if you knew anything about it.

Modern Greeks are probably the only ethnic group in the Balkans that can claim direct lineage to ancient Greeks (direct lineage of their ancestors, the others can't do the same). You don't see present-day Italians claiming to be direct descendants of ancient Romans (when Italy is mostly made up of Germanitalohellenic mix of peoples) or present-day Bulgarians claiming direct lineage to ancient Thracians...
Hehe, actually it CAN be argued that the position of the modern Greek is exactly comparable to that of his Italian counterpart. ;) Think of all the Slavonic incursions into Greece (the Peloponese is STILL called the 'Morea' because of them), and other upheavals since the days of Alexander... The Greeks were just clever enough to use the idea of continuity to gain support for their independence movement against the Sultan (think of the PR value, Byron's death at Missolonghi, how the elites of the western powers had been brought up on Homer and Plato...)

From what I've read, it would appear that only Torlak dialect is a product of a somewhat weaker Slavicisation of some paleobalkan population, so it has consequently retained much of the pre-Slavic traits while the rest of Serbian has not.

Torlak:
http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Torlak_dialects_map.png&sa=X&ei=T3nJTJSsN4eTswbW08yFDg&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHlJa5c4va5J2dLFd4cpzSTlTpShg
It used to be spoken over most of contemporary Kosovo in the more distant past.
The most useful post in the thread! :clap:

See, obstinate Albanians? Here are your Slavonicised Illyrico-Thracian cousins, as 'indigenous' to the area as you are, to all intents and purposes. Indeed, they actually LIVE in the area, unlike most of yous in Stockholm etc. :rolleyes:

Actually, I would suppose that more Jugo areas had such influence in their local dialects, before the mediaeval kingdoms' state influence brought more uniformity and Slavonicism to them.

[Monolith]

Still, your identity is not indigenous to balkan, but was imported(wich we also have sources on)
Proto-Illyrian identity (or identities) were also imported from the north, so it was initially not indigenous, but who cares? The Slavs came more than a millennium ago and nobody even speaks proto-Slavic anymore, like nobody speaks Illyrian.

This whole issue is utterly idiotic.

[Ushtari]

From what I've read, it would appear that only Torlak dialect is a product of a somewhat weaker Slavicisation of some paleobalkan population, so it has consequently retained much of the pre-Slavic traits while the rest of Serbian has not.

Torlak:
http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Torlak_dialects_map.png&sa=X&ei=T3nJTJSsN4eTswbW08yFDg&ved=0CAQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHlJa5c4va5J2dLFd4cpzSTlTpShg
It used to be spoken over most of contemporary Kosovo in the more distant past.

No, this dialect have nothing in common with paleobalkan.

Proto-Illyrian identity (or identities) were also imported from the north, so it was initially not indigenous, but who cares? The Slavs came more than a millennium ago and nobody even speaks proto-Slavic anymore, like nobody speaks Illyrian.

This whole issue is utterly idiotic.
As i said, we have sources about your identity entering balkan, but we do not have any sources about my identity entering balkan. We have been living in balkan much much longer then you, you are intruders, period.

[Radojica]

The national ideology insists on an unequivocal ethnic relationship with the ancient Illyrians. As little is known about the Illyrians and there are no historical records referring to the existence of the Albanian people during the first millennium C . E ., it is difficult to affirm or deny the relationship. Albanians entered postclassical recorded history in the second half of the eleventh century, and only in this age can one speak with any degree of certainty about the Albanian people as they are known today





:thumb001::thumb001::thumb001:


Bullshit, the albanians was expelled and persecuated systematically from the begining of the 1990 to Albania and the western countries.

Just like the Serbs to Northern parts of Serbia during Tito's time.


50.000 albanians fled to Albania before Nato started bombing the terrorist state of Slobodan Milosevic.

50.000 fled, but 200.000 returned :rolleyes:




You guys are like professional liers, Damn.
It is widely known that the number of deaths is 10.000+, where a majority were ethnic albanian civilians.

Not bigger liers than you anyway ;).

Anyway, your source was speaking about more than 100.000 of dead Albanians during NATO aggression, so their credibility is not worth a penny in my eyes...


Nobody has ever denied that albanians have not commited crimes in Kosovo against the serbian population, but they were just a little drip in the sea of what the serbian forces and paramilitarys did down there.

Oh, but you did and you are doing it still. When I write you I mean YOU since you are saying that those murders were nothing.


You cant compare random killings of civilian serbs by albanians with systematically and planned murders and ethnic cleansning against the civilian albanian population by serbian military forces.

Systematically cleansing started after the beginning of aggression, not before, don't speak bullshit.What you were doing to Serbs, Serbs were doing to you, simple as that.



They can return whenever they want, they just dont want to do that.

No they cannot and when they try you are making demonstrations and attacking them. Bullshit.



Dont lie.

You backed up my statement with a source, hah. But, I said 1500 and that source, which mentioned 1000 cannot be precise, since I doubt they were going around and counting them. Number I mentioned is from Red Cross of Serbia backed up with the names of the missing and killed persons.



Ahh the "Yellow house", the propaganda myth created by serbs:thumb001:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo


hah, wiki, right...:rolleyes:





cry me a river.....
What about 100+ mosques you serbs burned to the ground.

If you explain it to me how it was possible to build all those mosques during Communist regime of Josip Broz Tito it would be great, because I doubt they were built before WWII and I doubt they were survived liberation by Serbian army in 1912...



What you talking about you fool, I hope you realize that most of Kosovos population have it hard with electricity power, it is not only the serbs but all of the population in Kosovo.

You see what you ALbanians are? Now I have to report you again :(. Learn to argue without trying to insult, ok?

About other part, I witnessed it when I was in Orahovac, ghetto where Serbs were living was constantly lacking of water and electricity, while just 50 meters ahead, Albanian part, had it all the time.

But, what do you know when you don't even live there :coffee:


:thumb001:

Up to your ass, read the rest of the quotation ;)

[Ushtari]

Mr. Nobody

What is your point? when speaking of very old history you have to go after logical theories, and the illyrian one is the most logic.

[Osweo]

Our original home is Balkan, Serbs original home is not balkan:) simple as that.
Propaganda is simple, real life is not.

Are YOU simple?

No, its not "unclear", its very obvious. We have Thracians citynames who are totally against the structure of our language and we also have a small Thracian text wich is Alien to Albanian.
I have discussed the likelihood of.. NO, the certainty of a change in the structure of Albanian.

'Village of John' is NOT how PIE would express the concept of a village belonging to an individual named John. The Thracian 'Johnvillage' is more like the original language from which Albanian, English, Welsh and Serbian all evolved.

As for the text, I can find texts in Old English from 700 AD from which my countrymen would understand NOTHING. THis is not surprising at all.

[Red&Black]

Yawn... I won't repeat myself. I'll just respond to this;

lol


The area round Athens and much of the Peloponese is inhabited by ethnic Albanians (now largely Hellenised, I believe). They don't identify as Shiptars, and thus may have moved out of the home region before Castrioti's day. I was wondering if you knew anything about it.

Yes the Arvanites are the albanian population which under Stefan Nemanjas rule helped the Serbian empire expanding their borders south. They were rewarded with land in the conquerd areas of Morea, Athens, Spetzas and Hydras etc.... Today most of them feel greek but a lot of them have preserved their native albanian language.... The Arvanites became hellenisized late and mostly because they wanted religion to be stronger than national identity and so on they became "greeks", cause they just couldnt stand that albanians in north were catholics and muslims.


See, obstinate Albanians? Here are your Slavonicised Illyrico-Thracian cousins, as 'indigenous' to the area as you are, to all intents and purposes. Indeed, they actually LIVE in the area, unlike most of yous in Stockholm etc. :rolleyes:

I have said all the time that a significant number of the slav population in the Balkans are indigenous to the area straight genetically. But they have been assimilated and taken an slav identity which is not indigenous to the region and can so not call themselves "indigenous", not as far as in terms of language, culture, tradition and folklore.


Actually, I would suppose that more Jugo areas had such influence in their local dialects, before the mediaeval kingdoms' state influence brought more uniformity and Slavonicism to them.

Stop trolling and saying things that simply aint true.

[Ushtari]

Propaganda is simple, real life is not.
No, apart from you, i back my statements with relieble sources.




I have discussed the likelihood of.. NO, the certainty of a change in the structure of Albanian.

'Village of John' is NOT how PIE would express the concept of a village belonging to an individual named John. The Thracian 'Johnvillage' is more like the original language from which Albanian, English, Welsh and Serbian all evolved.

As for the text, I can find texts in Old English from 700 AD from which my countrymen would understand NOTHING. THis is not surprising at all.
Still, we do not have any source about our language having another structure then the present one, therefor those citynames is reason for us claiming we are not descendents of Thracians. So as i said earlier, judging by the available information about Albanian and Thracian, we can not be Thracians.

There is connections, but to little for saying that thracian is the base for Albanian.

[Osweo]

No, apart from you, i back my statements with relieble sources.
A: Here's MY source.
B: That's rubbish. Here's MY source.
A: That's propaganda.
B: So's yours.

POINTLESS.

Intelligent people can see that I have at least tried to employ REASON in my posts here. I have made analogies, and used indirectly related facts of undisputed nature to back up my thinking.

You just copy paste, copy paste.... :rolleyes2:


Still, we do not have any source about our language having another structure then the present one, therefor those citynames is reason for us claiming we are not descendents of Thracians. So as i said earlier, judging by the available information about Albanian and Thracian, we can not be Thracians.

There is connections, but to little for saying that thracian is the base for Albanian.
I don't CARE if Thracian is the base. I just want you to see that your logic for denying it is faulty. It cannot and should not be ruled out.

This is your fucking ancestors we're talking about. You owe it to them to be open to ideas about who they really were. Perhaps Thracian is a bad idea, but NOT because of the NON-arguments you have posted here.

ALL LANGUAGES CHANGE. This is a UNIVERSAL. We have a very good understanding of the nature of PIE, our common ancestor, and modern Albanian is very different. Proto-Albanian MUST have changed accordingly.

For Fuck's sake. Talking with you is a complete waste of time.

[Ushtari]

A: Here's MY source.
B: That's rubbish. Here's MY source.
A: That's propaganda.
B: So's yours.

POINTLESS.

Intelligent people can see that I have at least tried to employ REASON in my posts here. I have made analogies, and used indirectly related facts of undisputed nature to back up my thinking.

You just copy paste, copy paste.... :rolleyes2:
unfortunately i have to do that since you dont seem to understand.



I don't CARE if Thracian is the base. I just want you to see that your logic for denying it is faulty. It cannot and should not be ruled out.

This is your fucking ancestors we're talking about. You owe it to them to be open to ideas about who they really were. Perhaps Thracian is a bad idea, but NOT because of the NON-arguments you have posted here.

ALL LANGUAGES CHANGE. This is a UNIVERSAL. We have a very good understanding of the nature of PIE, our common ancestor, and modern Albanian is very different. Proto-Albanian MUST have changed accordingly.

For Fuck's sake. Talking with you is a complete waste of time.
No i have said it earlier, i UNDERSTAND that Albanian may have had other structure, but im just telling YOU that judging be the available information, we are most probably Illyrians. I do not care if we are descendents of illyrians or Thracians, im just trying to tell you what most historians and linguists also say.

[Monolith]

No, this dialect have nothing in common with paleobalkan.
lol wut?


As i said, we have sources about your identity entering balkan, but we do not have any sources about my identity entering balkan.
Sure there are, archaeological ones.


We have been living in balkan much much longer then you, you are intruders, period.
It appears you are unable to understand some basic principles here.

Descent issue
Many Balkan Slavs descend from the indigenous peoples of the area, especially those of them who live near your own folk.

Culture/Language issue
Proto-Slavic culture here is nonexistent, so is the language. Identity too. Those Slavic identities that exist in the area are the result organic development throughout the history, a development which included extensive contacts and intermixing with various populations residing in the area. They belong nowhere else but here.

[Ushtari]

[QUOTE]Sure there are, archaeological ones.
Yeah, what part of my identity is imported?


Descent issue
Many Balkan Slavs descend from the indigenous peoples of the area, especially those of them who live near your own folk.
Yes, balkanslavs are today mixed with the indigenous people of the area.


Culture/Language issue
Proto-Slavic culture here is nonexistent, so is the language. Identity too. Those Slavic identities that exist in the area are the result organic development throughout the history, a development which included extensive contacts and intermixing with various populations residing in the area. They belong nowhere else but here.
Your language is a continuation of that language wich we have source about invading balkan.



Listen dude. Todays balkanslavs are mixed with many people in the area, no one is saying they have nothing in common with Balkan, but what we are talking about is the proto identity.

[Red&Black]

Just like the Serbs to Northern parts of Serbia during Tito's time.

What happend to them?


50.000 fled, but 200.000 returned :rolleyes:

according to serbianna??:thumb001:


Not bigger liers than you anyway ;).

Albanians can never be bigger liers than serbs when it is in your nature and mentality to lie.

The first serb president in Jugoslavia said about his own people:
"We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively"


Anyway, your source was speaking about more than 100.000 of dead Albanians during NATO aggression, so their credibility is not worth a penny in my eyes..

My source have not said nothing about 100.000 dead, a clear fabrication by your side again.
Most sources talks in numbers around 10.000+ killed, which mostly were albanian civilians.


Oh, but you did and you are doing it still. When I write you I mean YOU since you are saying that those murders were nothing.

They were nothing compared with the systematically murders and ethnic cleansning against the albanians.


Systematically cleansing started after the beginning of aggression, not before, don't speak bullshit.What you were doing to Serbs, Serbs were doing to you, simple as that.

Systematically cleansning and discriminating the albanian people has been a reality during the whole of the 1990.


No they cannot and when they try you are making demonstrations and attacking them. Bullshit.

I am not demonstrating against nothing.:D
The serbs are welcomed back to Kosovo as long as it aint any warcriminals among them.


You backed up my statement with a source, hah. But, I said 1500 and that source, which mentioned 1000 cannot be precise, since I doubt they were going around and counting them. Number I mentioned is from Red Cross of Serbia backed up with the names of the missing and killed persons.

Your statemant said 1500, my said 1000, you lied with 500.

And by the way I belive more in human rights watch then I do in the serbian red cross. :cool:

According to Human Rights Watch, as "many as one thousand Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing since 12 June 1999."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War


hah, wiki, right...:rolleyes:

Wikipedia in english is one hundred times more reliable then most of the other shitsites like serbianna etc....

Heres another one:cool:

Page last updated at 9:23 GMT, Thursday, 27 May 2010 10:23 UK
Nick Thorpe
BBC News, Pristina, Belgrade and Tirana

Blood was found on the floor of the "yellow house" For years rumours have circulated about Serbs abducted and killed for their organs in the months following the Kosovo war.

Three parallel international investigations, by war crimes investigators from Serbia, the European Union, and the Council of Europe, have failed to uncover any evidence that the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) trafficked the organs of captives, according to sources close to each investigation.

Dozens of predominantly Serb captives were allegedly taken to a "yellow house" near Burrel in central Albania from June 1999 to May 2000, where their organs were systematically removed and sold, according to accounts presented by Carla del Ponte, former war crimes prosecutor at The Hague Tribunal in her 2008 autobiography.

But the failure to find either the original sources, or any new evidence since 2004, may mean that the story was unfounded.

The Council of Europe report, due to be published next month by investigator Dick Marty, is expected to focus rather on political demands to the governments involved, rather than to uncover new facts.

Distraction

"The fact is that there is no evidence whatsoever in this case," said Matti Raatikainen, head of the war crimes unit of Eulex, the European Law and Justice Mission in Kosovo.



Matti Raatikainen says the scandal has distracted from the search for remains "No bodies. No witnesses. All the reports and media attention to this issue have not been helpful to us. In fact they have not been helpful to anyone."

The main problem, he said, was that the scandal created by the allegations has distracted attention from the real work of finding the remains of 1,861 people still missing from the war and its aftermath, and prosecuting their killers - in Serbia, Kosovo and Albania.

We talked in his makeshift office in a cluster of containers at the Alpha-Bravo base near Pristina airport, as the latest May storm battered the roof.

Burly policemen came and went, surprised to find their boss talking to a journalist. Mr Raatikainen, a quiet Finnish policeman, is not known for his love of the media.

Loose ends

In 2009, a special BBC investigation found evidence of KLA detention camps in Albania, especially in the north-east Albanian town of Kukes. Earlier this month, Eulex made the first arrest in connection with that case.

Details have also emerged that Albanians suspected of disloyalty to the KLA were interrogated in a hotel in the Albanian coastal town of Durres, and transferred to Kukes.

But constant revelations in the Serbian press that new evidence, or new witnesses have emerged for the organ-trafficking allegations, have all proven either false, or unsubstantiated.

After the war in Kosovo, American journalist Michael Montgomery came across former KLA soldiers who said they had transported Serb and Albanian prisoners, dead and alive, across the border from Kosovo to Albania.

Three of his seven sources referred to the possibility of organ-trafficking, and identified the house near Burrel. But Montgomery was unsure, and handed a summary of his research over to the Office of Missing Persons and Forensics (OMPF) at the UN Mission in Kosovo.

Sources vanished

A team of UN and Hague Warcrimes Tribunal (ICTY) investigators, led by Matti Raatikainen, visited the house in February 2004.

A chemical spray, used in a downstairs room, found widespread traces of blood, of uncertain provenance, on the floor. Family members offered contradictory explanations.

Medical equipment appropriate for surgical interventions was found on the rubbish dump.

Some investigators wanted to pursue the case. Others felt the evidence, even then, was too thin.

Most serious of all, Montgomery's original sources had disappeared. One was dead, killed in a supposedly unrelated case. The others could not be found.

Even the Serbian authorities, who have propagated the tale of the yellow house most consistently, have their doubts today.

"I still believe something happened there," said a Belgrade source, close to the war crimes court, "but nothing on the scale of what has been suggested... and possibly not even connected to the KLA".

Mass graves

Considering the apparent lack of evidence, experts suggest the Albanian government could help kill off a damaging story if only it were more open.



Investigators are still searching for the remains of hundreds of victims UN special rapporteur Philip Alston said in February that "none of the efforts to investigate have received meaningful co-operation on the side of the government of Albania".

"In order to get rid of this issue," he urged Albania, "make available a proposal for an independent investigation and offer genuine co-operation."

The end of the "fairy-tale" of organ-trafficking, as one Eulex prosecutor calls it, would still leave war crimes investigators with plenty to do.

This month, a mass grave was found near the southern Serbian town of Raska. Three lorry-loads of bodies - around 250 in total - believed to be Albanians killed by Serb forces in Kosovo, were reburied there in early June 1999.

The red soil encasing the bodies, according to eye-witnesses, suggests the bodies were originally buried in the Drenica valley in Kosovo, and moved to Serbia to destroy the evidence.

Prosecutors say they believe the Serbian military were responsible. Excavations at the same site two years ago failed to find the grave, which is now believed to lie beneath a car park and office building.

Revenge killings

Missing Serbs are also being found in Kosovo. The exhumation of up to 25 Serb victims of the KLA is due to start later this year in a coalmine in the town of Obilic/Obiliq. The coal was set on fire, and the mine shaft destroyed, to hide the evidence.

But the effort to find other victims is proving difficult.

"A lot of potential informants left," said Alan Robinson, joint head of the OMPF.

"Other persons, who may know the whereabouts of the missing, may not be willing to talk... out of fear, or lack of interest."

According to Eulex, 2,244 bodies have been identified in Kosovo since 2001. Of these 301 were "non-Albanian", meaning Serb, Roma and others.

Some 228 were the bodies of Serbs who went missing after 10 June 1999, the end of the war, at a time of revenge killings by Kosovan Albanians. In total, around 13,500 are now believed to have been killed during the conflict, or immediately after it.

Dick Marty's investigation for the Council of Europe into the organ-trafficking allegations is due to be published in late June. Exhumations at Raska will begin in August.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10166800


If you explain it to me how it was possible to build all those mosques during Communist regime of Josip Broz Tito it would be great, because I doubt they were built before WWII and I doubt they were survived liberation by Serbian army in 1912...

I don't know how every mosque got build, but I know that you serbs destroyed more than 100+ mosques during the war.


The status of selected Muslim sacred sites. András Riedlmayer and Andrew Herscher, also of Harvard University, carried out a post-war field survey of damage to cultural and religious heritage in Kosovo in October 1999. They found no sign that NATO airstrikes had caused damage to Muslim or Orthodox sacred sites. However, more than 200 mosques had been destroyed or damaged in "ethnic cleansing" operations by Serbian forces in 1998-99. Among the worst hit was the northwestern Kosovo municipality of Pec, where all 36 mosques had been burned out, blown up, or vandalized, including the 14th-century Mosque of Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror (Bajrakli Xhamia) and the 18th-century Red Mosque (Xhamia e Kuqe).
http://www.sacred-sites.org/preservation/kosovo.html


You see what you ALbanians are? Now I have to report you again :(. Learn to argue without trying to insult, ok?

No but I seen what kind of animals you serbs really are.


About other part, I witnessed it when I was in Orahovac, ghetto where Serbs were living was constantly lacking of water and electricity, while just 50 meters ahead, Albanian part, had it all the time.

Bullshit, your word is worth as much as like when i go and take a shit.


But, what do you know when you don't even live there :coffee:

What i know and experienced with my eyes is not something that I sit and tell here just to be called a lier. I look forward not backward like you serbs....

[poiuytrewq0987]

I don't know how every mosque got build, but I know that you serbs destroyed more than 100+ mosques during the war.




Why are you so concerned about mosques?

[Monolith]

Todays balkanslavs are mixed with many people in the area, no one is saying they have nothing in common with Balkan, but what we are talking about is the proto identity.



Proto-Slavic culture here is nonexistent, so is the language. Identity too.
This is completely idiotic.

I'm done here, so you morons can knock yourselves up and continue copy-pasting crap.

[Guapo]

Mon olith is my favorite Croat(Sorry Heretik)

[Heretik]

http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss220/wensounds/sad2.jpg

[Guapo]

Why are you so concerned about mosques?

Cuz they are the gateway to 72 virgins.

[MandM]

i know this is very old thread but i read what Red&Black posted:

The first serb president in Jugoslavia said about his own people:
"We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else's misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively"

who are you traing to fool you know were well that is Quote from the musings of a controversial lead character of the novel trilogy "Deobe"(Divisions) 1961. Volume I, page 135

any way about thiss thread it was very good untill the balkan war started.

[Hurrem sultana]

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