Beauty

[Grey]

I've lately been trying to understand the meaning of beauty, and I was wondering if anyone could give feedback on my admittedly underdeveloped ideas. I apologize if this has been discussed before.

What is the importance of beauty? Obviously, there's the functional justification for it, that beauty is merely a natural phenomenon which causes us to value certain things more highly than others (as when choosing mates). However, this idea comes only from a very shallow perception of beauty.

I now think that beauty's true purpose can be understood only when one understands how beauty influences us. When I experience something that is utterly beautiful, it is not merely sensual; it shifts my entire mental state to a higher, more serene plane. I experience clarity of a religious variety. In this way, experiencing beauty has made me more perfect, and it is obvious that beauty is not "only skin deep" after all. Only by bathing in it and becoming beautiful ourselves do we find perfect inner peace.

That, I believe, is why beauty is important, but this explanation raises more questions. Why does beauty have this power to transform us? Where does beauty come from? It seems divine, but what does that really mean?

[Alison]

As you said, beauty comes from within. For me, beauty is in the eyes, which are the mirrors to the soul.

Beauty is kindness, compassion, respect for yourself and others, tolerance.. basically, everything that is taught in The Beatitudes.

[Curtis24]

True, but I think he's asking how actual physical beauty can cause those things in others.

[Osweo]

To paraphrase (and music best fulfills this role for me personally), how is it that we funny apes, not long out of the tropics, can have sensations prompted in us of heavenly realms beyond realms that reflect little we see in our daily life, merely from hearing a few other such apes rub bits of cat-gut together in ordered sequences?

Is that a fair rehash of the original question?

I have no answer! :D

[Guapo]

Men are visual beasts ftw

[Curtis24]

Anyway Grey, the answer is nobody knows. Love of physical beauty is a very taboo thing in our society - feminist women want to pretend it doesn't exist, or that its a "mental disorder"; and generally we are taught that beauty in and of itself has no value.

The reality is, of course, that beauty really drives a culture, since men in any culture are driven to do what they do because they want to have sex with beautiful women. At the same time, you can learn a culture's values by the type of men that the most beautiful women choose to align themselves with.

I have heard that beautiful people are much healthy and more resistant to disease, cancer, and viruses than average people. In our evolutionary past, the number one killer of humans was disease. Thus, the obsession with physical beauty.

[Roguegunner]

Beauty is purely just a perspective.

[Curtis24]

Beauty is purely just a perspective.

Guys, the original post is asking why people are so powerfully effected by physical beauty and the effects physical beauty has on us and society in general. Not vague "what is the real meaning of beauty.." etc.

[Roguegunner]

When we are born we have built in animal instincts to be attracted to physical beauty. Isn't it obvious. A little thing called pheromones is what feeds our primal urge, and we look for the best possible mate. Whoever says " I only care about what's on the inside'' is a liar, because we all have certain characteristics that we are attracted to.

[Psychonaut]

I've lately been trying to understand the meaning of beauty

Welcome to the wonderful world of Aesthetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics)!


I now think that beauty's true purpose can be understood only when one understands how beauty influences us. When I experience something that is utterly beautiful, it is not merely sensual; it shifts my entire mental state to a higher, more serene plane. I experience clarity of a religious variety...That, I believe, is why beauty is important, but this explanation raises more questions. Why does beauty have this power to transform us? Where does beauty come from? It seems divine, but what does that really mean?

Judging from your initial thoughts, it sounds as if you would do well to check out Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy as your sympathies already lie in that direction. Here's a sampling:


Thus the man who is responsive to artistic stimuli reacts to the reality of dreams as does the philosopher to the reality of existence; he observes closely, and he enjoys his observation: for it is out of these images that he interprets life, out of these processes that he trains himself for life. It is not only pleasant and agreeable images that he experiences with such universal understanding: the serious, the gloomy, the sad and the profound, the sudden restraints, the mockeries of chance, fearful expectations, in short the whole 'divine comedy' of life, the Inferno included, passes before him, not only as a shadow-play—for he too lives and suffers through these scenes—and yet also not without that fleeting sense of illusion; and perhaps many, like myself, can remember calling out to themselves in encouragement, amid the perils and terrors of the dream, and with success: 'It is a dream! I want to dream on!' Just as I have often been told of people who have been able to continue one and the same dream over three and more successive nights: facts which clearly show that our innermost being, our common foundation, experiences dreams with profound pleasure and joyful necessity.

For the most part, I concur in seeing a link between religious and artistic experiences. I've not fully worked out my position on it, but the link, as anyone who's set foot in a Gothic cathedral can attest, is definitely there.

[Psychonaut]

When we are born we have built in animal instincts to be attracted to physical beauty. Isn't it obvious. A little thing called pheromones is what feeds our primal urge, and we look for the best possible mate. Whoever says " I only care about what's on the inside'' is a liar, because we all have certain characteristics that we are attracted to.

Is physical beauty necessarily sexual in nature? The primal mating urge doesn't seem to have much to do with, say, my great appreciation for the beauty of an intentionally crafted male physique:

http://www.bodybuilders.com/scott9.jpg

[Curtis24]

No, its not necessarily sexual in nature, you're right. Which raises all kinds of other questions. Meaning, what kind of mental/behavioral qualities does physical beauty indicate?

[Roguegunner]

Is physical beauty necessarily sexual in nature? The primal mating urge doesn't seem to have much to do with, say, my great appreciation for the beauty of an intentionally crafted male physique:

http://www.bodybuilders.com/scott9.jpg

Valid point. Although, being drawn to beauty, and respecting it, is two totally different emotions and points of view.

[Curtis24]

Well, I guess I also tried to derail this thread. I must just be more interested in talking about beautiful women than the philosophy behind aesthetics, but that's just me.

[Debaser11]

Beauty and virtue ethnics are linked pretty closely. Why is it "gross" if someone scratches and belches, for example? It's not immoral but we all recognize it's not the ideal. Beauty in a sense represents the opposite of that. I think Plato (or was it Aristotle's) thoughts on form are useful. There does seem to be some unattainable ideal that we all are compelled to strive for in vain (which some would call God).

[Comte Arnau]

Beauty is the personal perception of what we interpret as a form of visual aesthetical pleasure. As such, it is highly subjective but also culturally induced by what has been interpreted as canonical in the society we grow up in.

Although often intertwined with or understood as a cause of intellectual or sexual arousal, it can perfectly work in an independent way. In other words, one can perceive as beautiful objects or people that are not necessarily attractive or enticing. And vice versa. But the three sensations usually share blurred borders.

[Debaser11]

Though people disagree about what is beautiful in terms of things like art, I wouldn't downplay the idea of some below the surface objective standard for beauty. If it were COMPLETELY arbitrary, why don't I see people marveling at garbage dumpsters in back alleys the way they do a sunset on the beach?

[Comte Arnau]

why don't I see people marveling at garbage dumpsters in back alleys the way they do a sunset on the beach?

There can be a more standard part indeed. For instance, in the example you mention, sunsets show a play of colours that visually appeals our sense of beauty, whether we are from one culture or another.

But the cultural connotations are just as important. A dumpster is a neutral element, but we immediately associate it to what it is made for, which provokes a negative or displeasing reaction. On the other hand, sunsets have been culturally enhanced by books, films, paintings, as aesthetically pleasant, although sometimes too with a touch of sadness and decay.

If we had been induced from childhood to appreciate the 'beauty' of dumpsters and abhor the ugly pain of those horrible sunsets, this could well overcome the standard part that exists in the distinction.

[Debaser11]

There can be a more standard part indeed. For instance, in the example you mention, sunsets show a play of colours that visually appeals our sense of beauty, whether we are from one culture or another.

But the cultural connotations are just as important. A dumpster is a neutral element, but we immediately associate it to what it is made for, which provokes a negative or displeasing reaction.

Certainly. But my reason for using the dumpster as an example is that it contains rot and waste. The opposite of what we generally associate with good--beauty, health, vitality.


On the other hand, sunsets have been culturally enhanced by books, films, paintings, as aesthetically pleasant, although sometimes too with a touch of sadness and decay.

If we had been induced from childhood to appreciate the 'beauty' of dumpsters and abhor the ugly pain of those horrible sunsets, this could well overcome the standard part that exists in the distinction.

Short of INTENSIVE brainwashing, I really doubt it.

[Curtis24]

So what do you guys think... are beautiful people really smarter/more moral/better etc? Why is the impulse not only to mate with, but as Psychonaut brings up, to admire the beautiful, so strong?

[Debaser11]

^Because beauty in and of itself is a virtue. That doesn't mean it's necessarily connected to other virtues (though I wouldn't rule out a loose association).

[Curtis24]

by why is beauty in and of itself a virtue?

[Debaser11]

Is beauty not usually a sign of vitality and health (goodness)?

[Comte Arnau]

Is beauty not usually a sign of vitality and health (goodness)?

I'd rather say a sign of symmetry and health (vitality being included in the latter).

However, it's still not an objective thing. The proof is that some find beautiful the faces of some modern models that do not look precisely healthy. But it's also likely that these people are just confusing beauty with attraction.

[Debaser11]

I'd rather say a sign of symmetry and health (vitality being included in the latter).

However, it's still not an objective thing. The proof is that some find beautiful the faces of some modern models that do not look precisely healthy. But it's also likely that these people are just confusing beauty with attraction.


That's not proof that there is no objective standard of beauty. What you're pointing out is a phenomenon where our experiences and biased human nature overlap with how we perceive beauty. Our tastes vary. That doesn't mean beauty is subjective or that there is no standard for it that exists outside of humans themselves. There have been quite a few studies done on beauty which do seem to point toward some underlying objective standard even if you like brunettes more than I do.

I mean we vary about what we think is right and wrong. Does that rule out the possibility of objective truth? Hardly.

[Comte Arnau]

That's not proof that there is no objective standard of beauty. What you're pointing out is a phenomenon where our experiences and biased human nature overlap with how we perceive beauty. Our tastes vary. That doesn't mean beauty is subjective or that there is no standard for it that exists outside of humans themselves. There have been quite a few studies done on beauty which do seem to point toward some underlying objective standard even if you like brunettes more than I do.

I mean we vary about what we think is right and wrong. Does that rule out the possibility of objective truth? Hardly.

Studies which prove beauty as an inherent quality independent of human perception? That sounds interesting.

I do think beauty can be humanly objective, much more objective indeed than attraction per se, yet I can't but consider it a human appreciation. It needs to be felt in order to exist, hence in my opinion it cannot be intrinsic to things. Unless we reduce the concept to formal structures, like the natural tendency to symmetry.

As for objective truth, that'd be quite a different issue.

[Debaser11]

Studies which prove beauty as an inherent quality independent of human perception? That sounds interesting.

Obviously, we are prisoners of our own bodies in this life. But the fact that there does seem to be some standard is quite interesting and at least supports the idea that there is some standard of beauty which can viewed as something that has prior essence. My point is that there is a consistency.



I do think beauty can be humanly objective,

Well, I thought cultural connotations were just as important for defining beauty according to you? Given the hugely different expressions that exist among different cultures you'd expect to find huge differences in how human beauty is defined. But now you say there can be a "humanly" objective standard. So which is it?


much more objective indeed than attraction per se, yet I can't but consider it a human appreciation. It needs to be felt in order to exist, hence in my opinion it cannot be intrinsic to things. Unless we reduce the concept to formal structures, like the natural tendency to symmetry.

Well, I fail to see how this is any less of a leap of faith than my point of view. Only yours is much less inspired.