Y-DNA I2a was in SouthEastern Europe BEFORE SLAVS CAME in 7th century

[Robocop]

I had a discussion with @Rethel about this on other thread so I decided to open a thread for this and I will copy my post which I answered to him on other thread for opening post here. THE POINT IS: I2a was in South-Eastern Europe before SLAVS came here, no evidence against that.

So, everything Started with my question for @Rethel, and he agrees with me:

I have more serious question here for you, I know It's not thread for it, but never the less.[/B]

Answer me this without any "R1 group hates I2&I1 and vice versa" thinking, but honestly, do you honestly believe that Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b (mine Y-DNA) came from SLAVS ONLY?

WTF I cannot believe I have to debate this always with some Serbians, and even Albanians, because Albanians are saying that I2a1b is for sure Slavic, because with that they wanna show their monopoly over SouthEastern Europe with E-V13 Y-DNA (their haplogroup, means haplogroup of their people).

And on the other hand you have Slavs who are saying exactly what Albanians are sayin (even though they hate each others), that I2a1b came to SouthEastern Europe WITH SLAVS from central and eastern Europe, I don't believe that, no way, and never will.

As I've just said to one Montenegrian guy, in 2017 & 2018 European ArcheoGenetic along with our University will conduct research on Necropolis in Dalmatia from 4th and 5th century, that Necropolis has 215 graves, all non-slavic, only 4 graves are OstroGothic.

And I am SURE that research will PROVE that those pre-slavic people of Dalmatia had I2a1b, which will DESTROY theory that I2a1b came here with Slavs.

Your opinion please (but again, please without that R1 hates I1,I2 and vice verca)?

P.S. Asking you this because you're Polish and I just had a debate about this with Montenegrian guy, so you are more than fit to answer this, what is your opinion.

@Rethel replied, so I replied again:



I belive, that it totaly doesn't came from Slavs, becasue Slavs are IE
but I2 is not, so it couldn't came from them. But could migrated with
Slavs. However, as Artek said, it could be, that if Scythes would slay
one more village, then balkanian I2 could not exist today. Becasue
bal;kanian I2 is very young, regardless it came with Slavs or not.

Trust me, you don't know half of what is going on with "conflict" between I2a1b ppl and E-V13, because you are too much focused on R1, so this has nothing to do with R1 ppl, just asked your opinion about this, as your neutral opinion.

Albanians (alllll of them) claim that I2a1b (and I2a in general) came with Slavs in 7th century, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE MAN... impossible., go and ask Albanians see what they will tell you. Because their dominant haplogroup is E-V13 and because they have less than 10% of I2a1b their primary goal is to portrait I2a1b as SLAVIC Y-DNA (along with R1a), and that I2a ppl CAME WITH R1a as SLAVS, I swear to you this is their claims, if anyone of them is reading this they can confirm, and I repeat, I have nothin against them, this is just civilized debate if they want it.




True Serbs and Albanians are R1, so, why you bother about it? :)

No they are not, Serbian dominant Y-DNA is I2a (even though they have less of it than Croats), and Albanian dominant Y-DNA is E-V13.



Obviously they do not know what they are saying.
Firstly it is about one subclade, secondly, I2 was there
always, thirdly - they should have a problem with their
E1 and J2 insteed of croatian I2... :picard2:

Well that's my point, nevermind how young is I2a1b, I2 was ALWAYS PRESENT HERE, but not according to Albanians, it came here with Slavs in 7th century, WTF!? All of I2 people came here in 7th century? If that's not madness I don't know what is.




Will they be checking Y?


They could have also more R1b.

Yes, in fact only Y-DNA, and sure, they will probably find R1b as well, but in this matter this is more about I2a1b and conflict against E-V13, because that would destroy many of Historical things as well, this has nothing to do with Balkan behaviour man but with a true SCIENTIFIC conflict, you wouldn't believe.




I2 was in Europe since before R1, so OBVIOUSLY had to be on the Balkans
too - whatever subclade it was. And becasue of that it can't be pure Slavic.
And btw, what a difference is, if I2a1b came in VIth century or was there earlier.
Now there is. Albanianness or Serbness of these idiots doesn;t depend on pre
Serbian and pre-Albanian hgs... :picard2: I know, that Balkanians are idiots, but as much?
You should change your place of living, becasue you doesn;t fit there :) Live Balkans!

I totally agree that I2 was here before Slavs, means before 7th century, but go on and tell that to Albanians you will see their answer.

Also many Serbians are saying also that I2 came with Slavs even though they hate Albanians ROFL, jesus fuckin christ It's like they both hate each others but agrees about this, and I DISAGREE.

I2 Y-DNA WAS HERE BEFORE SLAVS.





I2 is pre-IE hg, no matter how many members had and when.

Serbianess, Albanianness or Montenegroness depends on
R1, so every argufy about I2 or E1 being more Albanian or
Serbian or whatever is an imbecilism.

I agree, but ask them...

In their opinion and all of Albanian scientists claim that ALL OF I2 people came here WITH SLAVS, with slavs. I cannot fucking believe that, even some Serbian scientists and ppl sayin the same thing, how the fuck could they ALL CAME here in 7th century? with USS ENTERPRISE from Star Trek?

Having in mind that Dalmatia is CENTER of I2 haplogroup, it goes here up to 70%.

Albanian main argument that I2 people came with Slavs here is that one scientist found I2a1b person FROM POLAND, from ancient times, wtf does that proves? NOTHING.

Now if this research proves on that Necropolis that I2a1b (I2) was here before Slavs (and I'm sure it will show that), before 7th century, all of their IDIOTIC MUMBO JUMBO is gone... gone with wind.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NOW LET'S CONTINUE DISCUSSION HERE ON THIS THREAD.

[Nikomahos]

Basically the I haplo is Balkanic and mostly found among Croatians?

[Tschaikisten]

Y-DNA I2a was in Europe BEFORE IndoEuropeans
Edited :P
My opinion is that I2a1b came here with Slavs (R1a and N1a).
But, no one of us can not be sure before we see results of ArcheoGenetic researches from that locations. :)
Btw I would add that is definitely not proto-slavic, like R1a is.

[Robocop]

Basically the I haplo is Balkanic and mostly found among Croatians?

Yes, I2a Y-DNA haplogroup is highest in Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina, here is the map:

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Here is the map of all I Y-DNA haplogroups (I2a, I1, I2c, I2b...):

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/39/1f/7c/391f7c212f30c92006c5067d3f60bde7.gif

I Y-DNA haplogroups are Mesolithic & Paleolithic European, means they were here before R1 (IndoEuropeans) came, but this is not thread about R1 but about conflict of opinions between I2a ppl and E-V13.

Here is the map of entire Europe with Y-DNA haplogroups:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e6/94/29/e694297e50f1fb6e82cc18f8d07cdf9d.png

[Nikomahos]

[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e6/94/29/e694297e50f1fb6e82cc18f8d07cdf9d.png

According to this map, Greece seems to be overwhemingly E-V13. Rethel gave me stats from eupedia that have R1 as the most dominant.

[Danaan]

I personally believe that the Slavs were mostly I2a but were in South Balkans before the 7th century. I know that would seem weird but I don't care if others will accept this view. R1 would have been predominately non-IE. (Uralic, Vasconic and Turkic).

[Robocop]

Edited :P
My opinion is that I2a1b came here with Slavs (R1a and N1a).
But, no one of us can not be sure before we see results of ArcheoGenetic researches from that locations. :)
Btw I would add that is definitely not proto-slavic, like R1a is.

But do you see how high percentage of I2a is in Dalmatia and overall from Croatia to Serbia? How can all those ppl came in 7th century with Slavs? I dont get that, I never saw such migration in History considering that period of History, never...

That would be like migrating with starships or somethin lol.

We need those results and we will know then.

I don't care how young I2a1b is, it was created out of I2a, and I2a people were here (this area of Europe) before R1a OR E-V13.

[cosmoo]

Everything said here is wrong. I2a1b is not native Balkan, it came either with Slavs (but it was Slavicized on north, not originally Slavic) or with east Germanic tribes.

1) Older clades of I2a1b (I2a1b "Disles" and "Isles") are found predominantly in NW Europe.
2) Transition clades between "Disles" and "Dinaric" were found in Germany and Poland.
3) Older clade of I2a1b "Dinaric", named "Dinaric North" (from which our "Dinaric South" descends), is found more in northern than in southern Slavic lands.
4) Ken Nordtvedt calculated estimated TMRCA of it at 2500 ybp, in present-day Poland.
5) All ancient I2a1b found belonged exclusively to northern and western European hunter-gatherers, not a single example being found in southeastern Europe:
-Hunter-gatherers from Luxembourg and several of them from Motala in Sweden, all but one are I2a1b: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html
-Two hunter-gatherers from Swedish Pitted-Ware culture, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...ne-age-sweden/
-One hunter-gatherer from northern France, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-berry-au-bac/

Highest haplotype diversity of I2a1b "Dinaric" is in Poland (concentration and haplotype diversity are not the same thing), which suggests it came from there (haplogroups have highest diversity near place of origin). The very fact that older cousins of I2a1b Dinaric, Isles and Disles (Dinaric actually split from Disles), are found mostly in NW Europe, very clearly says that I2a1b Dinaric is NOT ancient Balkan haplogroup.

[Tschaikisten]

But do you see how high percentage of I2a is in Dalmatia and overall from Croatia to Serbia? How can all those ppl came in 7th century with Slavs? I dont get that, I never saw such migration in History considering that period of History, never...

That would be like migrating with starships or somethin lol.


Hm, I agree with that, also we will see for one months results of 200 tested Herzegovina Serbs, I predict 65% I2a1b. Thats one of the best arguments for pre-slavic I2a1b.
One of the best arguments for Slavic I2a1b in Herzegovina and Dalmatia generally, is that Slavs arrived there and chased autochthonic population to the south.

I don't care how young I2a1b is, it was created out of I2a, and I2a people were here before R1a OR E-V13.

Absolutely, I were surely been in Europe before R, E, J, N etc.


We need those results and we will know then.
Dat's it :thumb001:

[Ülev]

from Russian perspective

I2a
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.20-500x500.jpg
I1
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.19-500x496.jpg
I2a2
http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.21-500x500.jpg

source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

[Robocop]

One of the best arguments for Slavic I2a1b in Herzegovina and Dalmatia generally, is that Slavs arrived there and chased autochthonic population to the south.


You can tell them with 100% evidence THAT IS NOT TRUE, and we from Archaeology (and History) knows this better than anyone else.

Byzantine (Roman Empire) population lived in Dalmatian cities all the way till 12th century, I repeat: all the way till 12th century DALMATIAN CITIES WERE UNDER BYZANTINE EMPIRE, ALL OF THEM, means ROMANIZED PEOPLE of this area (Aka Romans citizens, aka Romans).

Croat Slavs lived with that Byzantine population FOR 500 YEARS IN PEACE, from 7th century till 12th century.

5 CENTURIES Byzantine Empire holded ALL OF DALMATIAN cities, so they didnt went anywhere, those are all fairytales before bed.

Also, all the way till 1898 in Dalmatia was spoken Dalmatian-Latin language, words from that language are still present in Dalmatian dialect today.

Also, various Archaeological sites in Dalmatia suggest with 100% certainty that Croats (original ones) starting from from late 7th & early 8th century buried their dead ones NEAR romance population, means near like; 1 meter near their deads.

What do you conclude on your own about that? Would Croats pay any attention on Romance graves when buried their own if they didnt ALREADY LIVED with romance population in 8th century? Ofcourse not, they lived with Romance society even in 8th century here.

And all largest cities in Dalmatia were UNDER BYZANTINE EMPIRE all the way till 12th century, so that theory "chased autochthonic population" is bed-time fairytale, they can sell it to someone else, but not to me.

[Tschaikisten]

Byzantine (Roman Empire) population lived in Dalmatian cities all the way till 12th century, I repeat: all the way till 12th century DALMATIAN CITIES WERE UNDER BYZANTINE EMPIRE, ALL OF THEM, means ROMANIZED PEOPLE of this area (Aka Romans citizens, aka Romans).

They were probably mix of J2a M92 and R1b U152
Tested people from coastal cities in Montenegro are mostly J2a M92 (Herceg Novi, strong Roman fleet port).

[Dema]

IT was 200 years of massive migrations of Slavs, that is why there is so many people.

In 200 years many people can migrate... South Slavs had higher R1a but its droping down all the time. I2a is taking over.

Genetics just confirmed what history has thought us, and that is there was this massive Slavic migration in early middle ages that lasted for 200 years.
They have taken parts of lands where Illyrians used to live before.

[Robocop]

IT was 200 years of massive migrations of Slavs, that is why there is so many people.

In 200 years many people can migrate... South Slavs had higher R1a but its droping down all the time. I2a is taking over.

Genetics just confirmed what history has thought us, and that is there was this massive Slavic migration in early middle ages that lasted for 200 years.
They have taken parts of lands where Illyrians used to live before.

@cosmo mentioned one theory on another thread, about I2a, for that theory I've said it is very possible, but also we lack 100% evidence, theory is:

I2a is not Slavic, or pre-Slavic on this area, but spreaded by Goths who got slavicized, either before coming here, or after they came here.

But, even though we discussed that theory even on University, that theory to me doesn't "hold water".

Because OstroGoths never had some great population in Croatia or Bosnia, just an Army to control this area in 5th and 6th century, their center was in Ravenna.

And even in Italy they didn't had any impact on population, but later another Germanic tribe; Langobards (majority of Northern Italians are in fact their descendants).

So, no way that Goths could have been slavicized HERE, only in central/eastern Europe.

But then again it has no sence, again.

All OstroGoths went from Eastern Europe in 3rd and 4th century when Huns came, some of them were in army of Huns, and some of them fled away seeking protection of Roman Empire.

Why would Goths (and in such numbers) leave themselves in eastern Europe waiting for what in 6th century? Slavicization? LOL, I don't believe in that theory to be honest.

But also I don't believe in theory that I2a were Slavic ppl, IMO I2a ppl lived (before slavs came here) from area of today Croatia all the way to DACIA (today romania).

Later some of them became slavicized, some romanized, and vice versa.

[cosmoo]

I know about that theory, we were discussing about that on college (exactly that), it is a very possible theory, very possible.

But that would mean what...as I've said on university... to bring back to life "Gothic theory"? lol. Because it suggests that.

Exactly...
Some people are opposed to it because of Ustaše, even though they promoted that theory only for a very short period of time in 1941, and then abandoned it, going back to Iranian theory.
But I think it is the theory that makes the most sense. Clearly, in time of TMRCA of I2a1b in Poland (2500 years ago), there were no Slavs there. Plus, Slavs only settled in river valleys and flat, fertile plains. Those are the areas where R1a in Yugoslavia dominates (northern Croats, Krajina Serbs, etc.) On the other hand, I2a1b dominates in mountainous, infertile areas that Slavs (especially considering they came as conquerors) would never settle.
Historical sources confirm it too. "Historia Salonitana" and "Ljetopis popa Dukljanina", our two oldest medieval chronicles, both talk about Goths settling heavily here. Procopius, in his "History of the Wars" (books V-VIII about Gothic War) says that, while Goths in Italy were completely annihilated, those living in provinces of Dalmatia and Praevalis accepted Byzantine rule and continued living there peacefully. Herwig Wolfram in "History of Goths" says most of Goths stayed on Balkans and in Ukraine and didn't follow Theoderic to Italy, so he had to fill up his army with Gepids, Rugi, Alani, etc...

[Robocop]

Exactly...
Some people are opposed to it because of Ustaše, even though they promoted that theory only for a very short period of time in 1941, and then abandoned it, going back to Iranian theory.
But I think it is the theory that makes the most sense. Clearly, in time of TMRCA of I2a1b in Poland (2500 years ago), there were no Slavs there. Plus, Slavs only settled in river valleys and flat, fertile plains. Those are the areas where R1a in Yugoslavia dominates (northern Croats, Krajina Serbs, etc.) On the other hand, I2a1b dominates in mountainous, infertile areas that Slavs (especially considering they came as conquerors) would never settle.
Historical sources confirm it too. "Historia Salonitana" and "Ljetopis popa Dukljanina", our two oldest medieval chronicles, both talk about Goths settling heavily here. Procopius, in his "History of the Wars" (books V-VIII about Gothic War) says that, while Goths in Italy were completely annihilated, those living in provinces of Dalmatia and Praevalis accepted Byzantine rule and continued living there peacefully. Herwig Wolfram in "History of Goths" says most of Goths stayed on Balkans and in Ukraine and didn't follow Theoderic to Italy, so he had to fill up his army with Gepids, Rugi, Alani, etc...

Ok but please read what I wrote to @Dema and could you comment that, your opinion. :)

[Dema]

But also I don't believe in theory that I2a were Slavic ppl, IMMO I2a ppl lived (before slavs came here) from area of today Croatia all the way to DACIA (today romania).

Later some of them became slavicized, some romanized, and vice versa.


But closest relatives are in Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus,,, Well yes, they (I2a) were not Slavs. At one point they got Slavicized by R1a and become Slavs.
Also place of birth is like 2000 years ago around Poland or somewhere behind the Carpathian mountains.

look what eupedia says:


After Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs from further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

[Rethel]

I repeat, what I wrote before:



Trust me, you don't know half of what is going on with "conflict" between I2a1b ppl and E-V13, because you are too much focused on R1, so this has nothing to do with R1 ppl, just asked your opinion about this, as your neutral opinion.

Albanians (alllll of them) claim that I2a1b (and I2a in general) came with Slavs in 7th century, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE MAN... impossible., go and ask Albanians see what they will tell you. Because their dominant haplogroup is E-V13 and because they have less than 10% of I2a1b their primary goal is to portrait I2a1b as SLAVIC Y-DNA (along with R1a), and that I2a ppl CAME WITH R1a as SLAVS, I swear to you this is their claims, if anyone of them is reading this they can confirm, and I repeat, I have nothin against them, this is just civilized debate if they want it.


R1a too? :D

And what about J2, J1, G, T and R1b? Nonhalal too? :)


No they are not, Serbian dominant Y-DNA is I2a (even though they have less of it than Croats), and Albanian dominant Y-DNA is E-V13.

And what?
If after 300 years in Poland the main hg on the level of 55% will be Q, it will mean, that Q is true polish hg? :picard1:


Yes, in fact only Y-DNA,

First sane people, which I hear about :)


this has nothing to do with Balkan behaviour man but with a true SCIENTIFIC conflict, you wouldn't believe.

So it is even worse, if balkanian science is in that level... :picard1:


Also many Serbians are saying also that I2 came with Slavs

So, at now, Serbs are not Slavs? :laugh:


jesus fuckin christ

Do you want be kicked?


Now if this research proves on that Necropolis that I2a1b (I2) was here before Slavs (and I'm sure it will show that), before 7th century, all of their IDIOTIC MUMBO JUMBO is gone... gone with wind.

Do you think, they will belive? :laugh:

[Rethel]

My opinion is that I2a1b came here with Slavs (R1a and N1a).

No I2 and R1a before???? :picard1::blink:

[Rethel]

Here is the map of entire Europe with Y-DNA haplogroups:

Map is very wrong. This is correct version:

62968
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62968&d=1479393194

[Rethel]

According to this map, Greece seems to be overwhemingly E-V13. Rethel gave me stats from eupedia that have R1 as the most dominant.

Because an idiot who did the map splited R1 in two subclades.
This is why this map is wrong, becasue does not show the real
domination of relevant hgs. Above you have the correct version
made by me, where R1 is treaded as a whole.

[Rethel]

This map is showing ancient findings according to 2015.
As we see here, I2 was on the Balkans long before R1
arrived. Pre-pre-pre-Hrvatska I2 rules! :)

http://s1.postimg.org/hhctxkrtb/Neolithic.png

[Rethel]

I personally believe that the Slavs were mostly I2a but were in South Balkans before the 7th century. I know that would seem weird but I don't care if others will accept this view. R1 would have been predominately non-IE. (Uralic, Vasconic and Turkic).

http://i.piccy.info/i7/30f635f09cc93e94fa0cb800baf9eaf7/4-59-247/7808717/mega_facepalm.jpg

[Rethel]

Everything said here is wrong. I2a1b is not native Balkan, it came either with Slavs (but it was Slavicized on north, not originally Slavic) or with east Germanic tribes.

1) Older clades of I2a1b (I2a1b "Disles" and "Isles") are found predominantly in NW Europe.
2) Transition clades between "Disles" and "Dinaric" were found in Germany and Poland.
3) Older clade of I2a1b "Dinaric", named "Dinaric North" (from which our "Dinaric South" descends), is found more in northern than in southern Slavic lands.
4) Ken Nordtvedt calculated estimated TMRCA of it at 2500 ybp, in present-day Poland.
5) All ancient I2a1b found belonged exclusively to northern and western European hunter-gatherers, not a single example being found in southeastern Europe:
-Hunter-gatherers from Luxembourg and several of them from Motala in Sweden, all but one are I2a1b: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html
-Two hunter-gatherers from Swedish Pitted-Ware culture, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...ne-age-sweden/
-One hunter-gatherer from northern France, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-berry-au-bac/

Highest haplotype diversity of I2a1b "Dinaric" is in Poland (concentration and haplotype diversity are not the same thing), which suggests it came from there (haplogroups have highest diversity near place of origin). The very fact that older cousins of I2a1b Dinaric, Isles and Disles (Dinaric actually split from Disles), are found mostly in NW Europe, very clearly says that I2a1b Dinaric is NOT ancient Balkan haplogroup.



But do you see how high percentage of I2a is in Dalmatia and overall from Croatia to Serbia? How can all those ppl came in 7th century with Slavs? I dont get that, I never saw such migration in History considering that period of History, never...

That would be like migrating with starships or somethin lol.

We need those results and we will know then.

I don't care how young I2a1b is, it was created out of I2a, and I2a people were here (this area of Europe) before R1a OR E-V13.

Aaaaaaaaaaa, I see now. So your great general problem is with one subclade...
but... who cares! I2 there was. Everything else does not consider me, becasue
for us, you all look exactly the same. :)

http://previews.123rf.com/images/paulmz/paulmz1412/paulmz141200060/34362825-Marching-Clones-on-white-background-studio-shot-Stock-Photo.jpg

[Rethel]

I predict 65% I2a1b.

:blink:


Thats one of the best arguments for pre-slavic I2a1b.

No. % does not witness about time.

[Danaan]

http://i.piccy.info/i7/30f635f09cc93e94fa0cb800baf9eaf7/4-59-247/7808717/mega_facepalm.jpg

Your opinion is completely unimportant to me.

[Danaan]

R1 is Vasconic, Uralic, Turkic, Hurrian, Urartian and maybe Sumerian.

[Rethel]

Byzantine (Roman Empire) population lived in Dalmatian cities all the way till 12th century, I repeat: all the way till 12th century DALMATIAN CITIES WERE UNDER BYZANTINE EMPIRE, ALL OF THEM, means ROMANIZED PEOPLE of this area (Aka Romans citizens, aka Romans).
[/COLOR][/B]
[B][COLOR="#0000FF"]Croat Slavs lived with that Byzantine population FOR 500 YEARS IN PEACE, from 7th century till 12th century.

Good argument, but it not excludes that I2 came later. But of course it would be more difficcult.


[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Also, all the way till 1898 in Dalmatia was spoken Dalmatian-Latin language, words from that language are still present in Dalmatian dialect today.

This is good point too. I thought about it also.


Also, various Archaeological sites in Dalmatia suggest with 100% certainty that Croats (original ones) starting from from late 7th & early 8th century buried their dead ones NEAR romance population, means near like; 1 meter near their deads.

But they could also mix, so Romanic people could be slavizied, and Slavs romanized.

[Rethel]

R1 is Vasconic, Uralic, Turkic, Hurrian, Urartian and maybe Sumerian.

Maybe yet Reptilmanian or Annunnaki? ;)

[Rethel]

Tested people from coastal cities in Montenegro are mostly J2a M92 (Herceg Novi, strong Roman fleet port).

https://onesaga.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/watto.jpg

[Danaan]

Maybe yet Reptilmanian or Annunnaki? ;)

No, Corded Ware was Uralic.

[Rethel]

No, Corded Ware was Uralic.

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

[Kamal900]

@cosmo mentioned one theory on another thread, about I2a, for that theory I've said it is very possible, but also we lack 100% evidence, theory is:

I2a is not Slavic, or pre-Slavic on this area, but spreaded by Goths who got slavicized, either before coming here, or after they came here.

But, even though we discussed that theory even on University, that theory to me doesn't "hold water".

Because OstroGoths never had some great population in Croatia or Bosnia, just an Army to control this area in 5th and 6th century, their center was in Ravenna.

And even in Italy they didn't had any impact on population, but later another Germanic tribe; Langobards (majority of Northern Italians are in fact their descendants).

So, no way that Goths could have been slavicized HERE, only in central/eastern Europe.

But then again it has no sence, again.

All OstroGoths went from Eastern Europe in 3rd and 4th century when Huns came, some of them were in army of Huns, and some of them fled away seeking protection of Roman Empire.

Why would Goths (and in such numbers) leave themselves in eastern Europe waiting for what in 6th century? Slavicization? LOL, I don't believe in that theory to be honest.

But also I don't believe in theory that I2a were Slavic ppl, IMO I2a ppl lived (before slavs came here) from area of today Croatia all the way to DACIA (today romania).

Later some of them became slavicized, some romanized, and vice versa.

It's safe to say that most of the Southern Slavic peoples are from Slavicized natives of the Balkans like the Illyrians, Thracians and etc who were Romanized later on.

[Danaan]

You should study language-shifting. If a predominately non-Latin population can adopt a Romance language (that happened in Spain, France, parts of Italy etc), then that's also possible for a predominately non-Slavic one to adopt a Slavic tongue.
Nomads weren't Indoeuropean. Indoeuropeans were always settled and practiced farming but weren't just farmers either.

[Robocop]

R1a too? :D

Official Albanian and Serbian Archaeology and History (as far as I know it, and I talked actually with their Archaeologists) considers this, and NOTHING MORE OR LESS BUT THIS: R1a & I2a1b population "came with Slavs" in 7th century, PERIOD.

That's the official stand of Serbian and Albanian Archaeology..., when it comes about ours Croatian Archaeology we still debate about this, because of that, research will be done in 2017 or 2018, Y-DNA research on bones of non-slavic population Dalmatia from 4th and 5th century, that costs a lot of money, but It's wort it, because this has to end.



And what about J2, J1, G, T and R1b? Nonhalal too? :)

I don't know what they think about those haplogroups, but I know what is our opinion about them, and mine opinion; J2 (with all of it's subclades) is hg from Mediterranean area, means area both Europe and Middle East, N.Africa, it depends what subclade.

J1 is strictly viewed as Arabic, G or G2a is viewed as Caucasus or better say "Georgian" because of it's dominance there, so it was believed that G2a was spreaded trough Europe in Roman Empire when some of those ppl there became citizens but that theory is truly WIERD lol, and this about G2a is not official croatian theory but what I was reading.

T hg is... well, Asian, central Asia and Mesopotamia IMO.

R1b is viewed as IndoEuropean, mainly spreaded troughout Europe by Celts, Italics and various Germanic tribes, depends of subclades.



And what?
If after 300 years in Poland the main hg on the level of 55% will be Q, it will mean, that Q is true polish hg? :picard1:

Hahahahha, well obviously, that is their philosophy of looking at things. :)




First sane people, which I hear about :)

Because we Archaeologists do not pay attention to Autosomal DNA as much as we pay attention on Y-DNA, because Y-DNA always helps us more to track human migrations because obvious reasons. :thumb001:



So it is even worse, if balkanian science is in that level... :picard1:

It was worse before but still that's main subject when it comes about genetic, "the war" of I2a1b (Croats, Bosnia and Herzegovina) VS Albanians (E-V13) continues, but in civilized manners ofcourse, but the thing which hurts me personally the most is that I am convinced that behind Albanian theories is POLITICS and nationalism, because if anyone would prove that I2a1b was here before E-V13 they would need to throw down many books.




So, at now, Serbs are not Slavs? :laugh:

Serbs consider themselves in general (out of all ppl from ex-yugoslavia) as greatest slavs here, paradox is that they have less R1a than Croats, and Croats neither claim we are Slavs or whatever lol, but that we are Slavs in combination with pre-slavic population of this area, which is to me the most rational opinion, not because I am Croatian, but you say is it?



Do you think, they will belive? :laugh:

They will not have any choice, hard evidence will be presented, and genetics is exact science, nothing more can be added when that research is made on that Necropolis (the largest in Dalmatia from Roman & Byzantine-Roman period).

[Robocop]

It's safe to say that most of the Southern Slavic peoples are from Slavicized natives of the Balkans like the Illyrians, Thracians and etc who were Romanized later on.

Well that would mean that I2a1b was here before Slavs in 7th century, Albanians claim that's blasphemy and that I2a1b came FOR SURE - ALL OF THEM (I2a1b) with Slavs, nevermind the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE of I2a1b is exactly in area of Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina (up to 70% in Dalmatia and around 60% in Bosnia and Herzegovina), now you tell me, is that make any sence to you? any what so ever? That I2a1b came here (all of it) with Slavs in 7th century?

Having in mind that all other Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe are ALL like "Vatican" of R1 and not I2a1b.

[Rethel]

Official Albanian and Serbian Archaeology and History (as far as I know it, and I talked actually with their Archaeologists) considers this, and NOTHING MORE OR LESS BUT THIS: R1a & I2a1b population "came with Slavs" in 7th century, PERIOD.

That's the official stand of Serbian and Albanian Archaeology..., when it comes about ours Croatian Archaeology we still debate about this, because of that, research will be done in 2017 or 2018, Y-DNA research on bones of non-slavic population Dalmatia from 4th and 5th century, that costs a lot of money, but It's wort it, because this has to end.

So I wish you all luck*! :)
(*to find 100% R1!)


J1 is strictly viewed as Arabic, G or G2a is viewed as Caucasus or better say "Georgian" because of it's dominance there, so it was believed that G2a was spreaded trough Europe in Roman Empire when some of those ppl there became citizens but that theory is truly WIERD lol, and this about G2a is not official croatian theory but what I was reading.

G2 are mostly farmers.


R1b is viewed as IndoEuropean, mainly spreaded troughout Europe by Celts, Italics and various Germanic tribes, depends of subclades.

What about Illirians. They should be R1b with R1a minority.


Hahahahha, well obviously, that is their philosophy of looking at things. :)

Tragic...

True Albaness. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61563&d=1472236533)


Because we Archaeologists do not pay attention to Autosomal DNA as much as we pay attention on Y-DNA, because Y-DNA always helps us more to track human migrations because obvious reasons. :thumb001:

I know that.
Say it to those noncroatian archeoidiots who are not even checking autosomal, but... mts... :picard2:
They are waisting our public money and precious biomaterial for such worthless research...


It was worse before but still that's main subject when it comes about genetic, "the war" of I2a1b (Croats, Bosnia and Herzegovina) VS Albanians (E-V13) continues, but in civilized manners ofcourse, but the thing which hurts me personally the most is that I am convinced that behind Albanian theories is POLITICS and nationalism, because if anyone would prove that I2a1b was here before E-V13 they would need to throw down many books.

But it is silly, especially that either I2 and E1 is pre-albanian and pre-slavic.
There is no difference from the slavic or albanic point of view which hg was
previous. It is totally sensless prooving some national valors by these hgs
when they are not even IE (if proving by hg "betterness" and "aboriginness"
of course is sensless in that case at all).



Serbs consider themselves in general (out of all ppl from ex-yugoslavia) as greatest slavs here, paradox is that they have less R1a than Croats,

1/4 of them is IE, so only those people can claim true slavness. This
is why I consider nasionalists morons - becasue they do not follow
their own logic. They confuse language with genetics. :laugh:


and Croats neither claim we are Slavs or whatever lol, but that we are Slavs in combination with pre-slavic population of this area, which is to me the most rational opinion, not because I am Croatian, but you say is it?

Yes rational and sensable.
But if someone would claim
truessness he must be R1.
Otherwise it has no sense.


They will not have any choice, hard evidence will be presented, and genetics is exact science, nothing more can be added when that research is made on that Necropolis (the largest in Dalmatia from Roman & Byzantine-Roman period).

After I read these fairy tails which they are writing here - I doubt :)

[Kamal900]

Well that would mean that I2a1b was here before Slavs in 7th century, Albanians claim that's blasphemy and that I2a1b came FOR SURE - ALL OF THEM (I2a1b) with Slavs, nevermind the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE of I2a1b is exactly in area of Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina (up to 70% in Dalmatia and around 60% in Bosnia and Herzegovina), now you tell me, is that make any sence to you? any what so ever? That I2a1b came here (all of it) with Slavs in 7th century?

Having in mind that all other Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe are ALL like "Vatican" of R1 and not I2a1b.

I know on that fact that R1a is the most common haplogroup among "true" Slavic peoples genetically rather than I2a1b which was described to be originated in the Balkans rather than eastern Europe. Dalmatians look no different from other Mediterranean European nations in my own opinion - racially, culturally and etc.

[GoneWithTheWind]

OP strikes again with his delusion and identity crisis. I call these types wannabe Albanians. All they do is claim Albanian ancestors but act as if they werent proto Albos.

There are plenty of ancient Balkan remains that have been found and not a single one of them was I2a. They were all j2b, j2a, r1b and ev13. Many of them found in bulgaria which has a lot of i2a today. As already also shown by nordtvedt that i2a, atleast the south slavic subclade, is not indigenous to the Balkans. But rather descendants of i2a north and the result of a recent expansion into the south. There are some non slavic i2a subclades that albanians have.

I also always wondered where OP tested and why would he ignore all his relatives from Poland and Ukraine.

A Bronze age sample from Dalmatia also showed not much close genetic affiliation with modern Croats.

Op continues with his retardation by claiming all Albanians are EV13 xD OP has a retarded view of the world like most anthrotards.

OP then proceeds with his delusion by claiming that there was no migration from Herzegovina and Dalmatia and into North Albania/Malsia ,,, which there actually was and Albanian tribes have even tales about this coming from there and even Dardania. Dalmatia is an Albanian Ilyrian toponym and so is Dardani. I've explained the meaning of these words in Albanian a 100 times, what a "coincidence" that it was the same in Ilyrian.

One of the first attests of the Albanian language was in fact in the mountains of Dalmatia.

Albanians are mentioned from Dalmatia all the way down to Dyrrachium (Durres) in a similar period.

Vlachs are just latinized Albanian/Ilyrian city dwellers that absorbed foreign Roman blood during the Roman empire and that, after the Slav and Avar invasions that pillaged the Balkans, retreated into the country side and mountainous areas where they adopted a shepherd lifestyle similar to that of proto Albanians.





Croatia is just another former Albanian land that you stole, but do not worry, we will take it back

[GoneWithTheWind]

Well that would mean that I2a1b was here before Slavs in 7th century, Albanians claim that's blasphemy and that I2a1b came FOR SURE - ALL OF THEM (I2a1b) with Slavs, nevermind the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE of I2a1b is exactly in area of Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina (up to 70% in Dalmatia and around 60% in Bosnia and Herzegovina), now you tell me, is that make any sence to you? any what so ever? That I2a1b came here (all of it) with Slavs in 7th century?

Having in mind that all other Slavs from Central and Eastern Europe are ALL like "Vatican" of R1 and not I2a1b.

What has this anything to do with Albanians? If I2a is indigenous to balkans then Albanians would have plenty of it considering Albanians are ancient balkanites but ironically, northern albania has the least amount of i2a found in the balkans because an ilyrian population retreated there and lived in isolated mountains for hundreds of years until they expanded later. Smaller numbers lived in the lowlands and absorbed into Slavs... Fyrom, bulgaria etc .. They all have i2a.. All neighbors to Albanians

[Rethel]

What has this anything to do with Albanians? If I2a is indigenous to balkans then Albanians would have plenty of it considering Albanians are ancient balkanites but ironically, northern albania has the least amount of i2a found in the balkans because an ilyrian population retreated there and lived in isolated mountains for hundreds of years... Fyrom, bulgaria etc .. They all have i2a.. All neighbors to Albanians

But man, I2 allready was found on the Balkans in Croatia in neolithic times... :picard1:

AND important: when E1 or I2 came to Balkans THEY WERE NOT
ALBANIANS - so it doesn;t proof anything in the case of Albanians.

[Peterski]

and I2a people were here (this area of Europe)

They were all over Europe. For example people of the Narva culture were mostly I2a:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narva_culture


Narva culture or eastern Baltic (c. 5300 to 1750 BC)[1] was a European Neolithic archaeological culture found in present-day Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kaliningrad Oblast (former East Prussia), and adjacent portions of Poland and Russia. A successor of the Mesolithic Kunda culture, Narva culture continued up to the start of the Bronze Age. The technology was that of hunter-gatherers.

When the Bronze Age started, I2a folks of Narva culture mixed with R1a of Corded Ware:


From mid-Neolithic Narva pottery was influenced and eventually disappeared into the Corded Ware culture.[2]

Which means that the I2a-Din mutation could as well originate in North-Eastern Europe.

================

Trzciniec was a mixture of Corded Ware (R1a) and Narva or Narva-like (I2a) peoples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

And Trzciniec culture = ancestors of Slavs (and maybe also of some other ethnic groups).

As for N1c - there was no any N1c in Trzciniec. At least it has not been found.

[Rethel]

They were all over Europe. For example people of the Narva culture were mostly I2a:

Ok, this is acceptable, but from where it is known, exept Maciamo's map.

[Peterski]

but from where it is known

There are ancient DNA samples from Kunda, Narva, Baltic Corded Ware and Trzciniec.

They will be published soon.

[Rethel]

There are ancient DNA samples from Narva, Baltic Corded Ware and Trzciniec.

They will be published soon.

How many of them are I?

[Peterski]

How many of them are I?

I don't know. But there will be around 80 samples in total. From several cultures.

[Ülev]

so I2a people went south but without women, they mixed with local Balkan beauties?

[Rethel]

so I2a people went south but without women

They run from them!!!

http://f.postimees.ee/f/2010/09/12/431248t41hb858.jpg

[Ülev]

so I2a people went south but without women, they mixed with local Balkan beauties?

this is why in Belarus I2a1 looks whiter than I2a1 in Balkan region? and I1 is white in Scandinavia, because I1 never had so many southern wifes?

[Rethel]

this is why in Belarus I2a1 looks whiter than I2a1 in Balkan region? and I1 is white in Scandinavia, because I1 never had so many southern wifes?

All european I1 was born around 1165 BC, so obviously
this haplos was long ago racially indoeuropeanized.

[Mraz]

Does Y halpogroup mutate, if yes under what conditions and what level?
If you test it in 2016, do you have guarantees it is the same as 2000 year ago ancestor, does environment can have an impact like it has on the physical appearance?

[Peterski]

BTW, here are some Ancient Balkan samples, I checked them in GEDmatch calculators:
(these are all poor quality samples, but maybe these results are not incorrect after all)

Of course these GEDmatch results = autosomal DNA:

Ancient Bulgaria:

Sample V2, what ethnicity? (Vratitsa, Bulgaria), Late Bronze Age (1500–1100 BC):

Looks like someone from the Caucasus (Georgia), but this sample is of very poor quality.

Sample P192-1, likely Thracian man (Svilengrad, Bulgaria), Early Iron Age (800-500 BC):

Can be modeled as 55% Sardinian + 45% Udmurt or 70-75% French/Spanish + 30-25% Udmurt
Y-DNA of P192-1 was E1b1b1a1b (subclade Z1919).

Sample K8, likely Thracian aristocrat (Yakimova Mogila Tumulus), Iron Age (450-400 BC):

He could be modeled as ca. 2/3 Celtic + 1/3 Iranic (not sure if it makes sense for Thracians?).
Y-DNA of K8 was J2a1a1b2 (subclade PF5197).

Ancient Montenegro:

Sample RISE595, probably Illyrian (Velika Gruda), Late Bronze Age (unknown date):

Similar to Albanians but more south-western, more Sardinian-like (could be 50% Sardinian + 50% Albanian; 60% Sardinian + 40% Bulgarian/Romanian/Montenegrin/Macedonian; 65% Sardinian + 35% Bosnian).

Sample RISE596, who was that? (Velika Gruda), Iron Age (also no exact date given):

Could be modeled as a mix of 80-90% Celtic & 10-20% Siberian (Ulchi, Altaian, Nganassan). He could also be modeled as a mix of 60-70% Baltic or North Slavic and 40-30% North Caucasian (Lezgin/Circassian).

[Peterski]

Modern Bulgarians are ca. ~50% Eastern/Northern European + ~50% Southern European.

[Tschaikisten]

No I2 and R1a before???? :picard1::blink:
Yes, especially no R1a.

I predict 65% I2a1b.

:blink:
:confused:
Herzegovina is as Dalmatia home of I2a1b Dinaric subclade, espesially western (Croatian part) where is I2a1b like 70%, I predict in Serbian (eastern part) 65% max.

[Robocop]

OP strikes again with his delusion and identity crisis. I call these types wannabe Albanians. All they do is claim Albanian ancestors but act as if they werent proto Albos.

There are plenty of ancient Balkan remains that have been found and not a single one of them was I2a. They were all j2b, j2a, r1b and ev13. Many of them found in bulgaria which has a lot of i2a today. As already also shown by nordtvedt that i2a, atleast the south slavic subclade, is not indigenous to the Balkans. But rather descendants of i2a north and the result of a recent expansion into the south. There are some non slavic i2a subclades that albanians have.

I also always wondered where OP tested and why would he ignore all his relatives from Poland and Ukraine.

A Bronze age sample from Dalmatia also showed not much close genetic affiliation with modern Croats.

Op continues with his retardation by claiming all Albanians are EV13 xD OP has a retarded view of the world like most anthrotards.

OP then proceeds with his delusion by claiming that there was no migration from Herzegovina and Dalmatia and into North Albania/Malsia ,,, which there actually was and Albanian tribes have even tales about this coming from there and even Dardania. Dalmatia is an Albanian Ilyrian toponym and so is Dardani. I've explained the meaning of these words in Albanian a 100 times, what a "coincidence" that it was the same in Ilyrian.

One of the first attests of the Albanian language was in fact in the mountains of Dalmatia.

Albanians are mentioned from Dalmatia all the way down to Dyrrachium (Durres) in a similar period.

Vlachs are just latinized Albanian/Ilyrian city dwellers that absorbed foreign Roman blood during the Roman empire and that, after the Slav and Avar invasions that pillaged the Balkans, retreated into the country side and mountainous areas where they adopted a shepherd lifestyle similar to that of proto Albanians.





Croatia is just another former Albanian land that you stole, but do not worry, we will take it back

I am glad everyone here saw your CULTURE of expression, and what does word "debating" in civilized manners means to you.

And you just come to Croatia to take somethin, we are waiting for you :). I wonder if other Albanians here share your opinions for Croatia, I truly wonder, where is now Chloe, Dema, Laberia etc...?

Salute

[Peterski]

Slavic migrations had considerable autosomal impact on the Balkans.

Bronze/Iron Age Balkanians were more Southern European and also slightly more Western.

Slavic migrations added a lot of Northern-Eastern European admixture.

Albanians are probably most similar to Late Bronze Age Balkanians (at least to RISE595).

[Peterski]

But actually RISE595 is the only sample similar to Albanians.

Other ancient Balkanian samples are not similar to Albanians (or to any other modern Balkanians).

However, it could be also because they are of so poor quality.

We need to wait for more samples I guess.

[Peterski]

Croatia is just another former Albanian land that you stole

Actually Albanians had stolen it from Sardinians before.

All Neolithic Southern Europe was inhabited by "Sardinians".

I mean they were genetically just like modern Sardinians.

So you should all withdraw back to Asia and let Sardinians in. :p

====================================

Also Italy was inhabited by "Sardinians" - not by Italians.

Gedmatch kit T135721, Remedello-RISE489 (years 2908-2578 BC):

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 15.6
2 Spanish_Andalucia 31.22
3 French_Basque 31.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.8% Sardinian + 17.2% French_Basque @ 14.5
2 94.3% Sardinian + 5.7% Southwest_French @ 15.51
3 95% Sardinian + 5% Spanish_Aragon @ 15.5

Please expel all Italians and resettle Italy with Sardinians + Basques. :p

[Robocop]

But man, I2 allready was found on the Balkans in Croatia in neolithic times... :picard1:

AND important: when E1 or I2 came to Balkans THEY WERE NOT
ALBANIANS - so it doesn;t proof anything in the case of Albanians.

Dont worry, now you will here from him that Jesus Christ was Albanian as well, along with Buddha :D.

[Robocop]

Actually Albanians had stolen it from Sardinians before.

All Neolithic Southern Europe was inhabited by "Sardinians".

I mean they were genetically just like modern Sardinians.

So you should all withdraw back to Asia and let Sardinians in. :p

====================================

Also Italy was inhabited by "Sardinians" - not by Italians.

Gedmatch kit T135721, Remedello-RISE489 (years 2908-2578 BC):

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 15.6
2 Spanish_Andalucia 31.22
3 French_Basque 31.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.8% Sardinian + 17.2% French_Basque @ 14.5
2 94.3% Sardinian + 5.7% Southwest_French @ 15.51
3 95% Sardinian + 5% Spanish_Aragon @ 15.5

Please expel all Italians and resettle Italy with Sardinians + Basques. :p

Don't worry about him friend, 99% of Albanians would never claim anything Croatian, but if this guy says this like third time here, who knows... maybe some day they will try their invasion here as well, so I asked other Albanians do they share his dreams about "CONQUERING CROATIA", we will see what will their response be.

[Ülev]

and about Sardinians, a map (I2a1a1 M26):

https://s4.postimg.org/61pogaqd9/I2a1_wersja_2.jpg


edit: source: https://i2a1tree.wordpress.com/author/m26positive/

[Laberia]

and about Sardinians, a map (I2a1a1 M26):

https://s4.postimg.org/61pogaqd9/I2a1_wersja_2.jpg
edit: source: https://i2a1tree.wordpress.com/author/m26positive/There are italian scholars who support the theory that exist a connection between Albanian language and a sardinian dialect spoken in the region of Monte Santo, Barbagia, East Sardegna.

[Rethel]

Does Y halpogroup mutate, if yes under what conditions and what level?
If you test it in 2016, do you have guarantees it is the same as 2000 year ago ancestor, does environment can have an impact like it has on the physical appearance?

There is a couple millions of alkalis, so there is a room
to separate these changes which are adequate to the
oldest separeted groups of people. On this level I think
it is very reliable. And these chages are cosmetic, they
do not bear any important, especially new, essence. It
is like differences between twins - the older the more
differences you can see, becasue they live since first
moment separatly, so they growing and living differently,
but becasue of thet they didn't change into neighbour.

[cosmoo]

Which means that the I2a-Din mutation could as well originate in North-Eastern Europe.

It is pretty much impossible. Since the TMRCA of Dinaric lived in Poland, it is logical that split from Disles happened somewhere on border between modern day Poland and Germany. Plus, older clades of I2a1b are found predominantly in northwestern, not in northeastern Europe.



But, even though we discussed that theory even on University, that theory to me doesn't "hold water".

Because OstroGoths never had some great population in Croatia or Bosnia, just an Army to control this area in 5th and 6th century, their center was in Ravenna.

And even in Italy they didn't had any impact on population, but later another Germanic tribe; Langobards (majority of Northern Italians are in fact their descendants).

So, no way that Goths could have been slavicized HERE, only in central/eastern Europe.
I think you are wrong about few facts here.
Firstly, Goths didn't have their "center" in Ravenna. Not many Goths actually left to Italy with Theoderic (as Herwig Wolfram writes in "History of Goths"). Only around 20.000 warriors (estimated to 100.000 if we add women, children, and non-fighting men) went there with him, and they weren't only Goths, but also Alans, Gepids, Rugi, Heruli, etc. since he actually couldn't get enough of Goths from Balkans and Ukraine to follow him, most of them simply wanted to stay.
What people also get wrong is that they think Goths went to Italy to settle. They didn't. They went as mercenaries, to regain Italy for Byzantine emperor Zeno from Odoacer. After Zeno died, they took Italy for themselves.
Of course they didn't leave any genetic impact, since Italy numbered at least 10 millions in 1 AD, and even more when Theoderic came. When they came there they didn't account for even 0.5% of total Italian population. Not to mention Justinian massacred them in Gothic Wars, so their genetic influence in Italy is literally non-existent.

But as I already said, Balkans were much more scarcely populated, and there were more Goths that stayed on western Balkans than those who went to Italy. Heavy settling of Goths in Dinaric Alps area is well-recorded. Procopius says that those who were in provinces of Dalmatia and Praevalis continued to live under Byzantine rule. Our oldest chronicles, "Historia Salonitana" and "Ljetopis popa Dukljanina", say the same.
It is also interesting what Venetian doge Andrea Dandolo, talking about raids of Narentine pirates in 830 (Neretljani- modern day Herzegovina and Croatia) said for them: "Slavi, quia a Gothis originem traxerunt" - "Slavs [most probably he means that they are linguistically Slavs] who trace their origins from Goths".

For me, everything points out to east Germanic origin of I2a1b "Dinaric". Older clades of I2a1b, Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are found predominantly in NW Europe. TMRCA of Dinaric 2500 ybp in Poland, when no Slavs lived there, also points out to that strongly. I2a1b in Yugoslavia is heavily concentrated in mountainous areas, while R1a is in fertile plains and river valleys. If they both came with Slavs, then they would be evenly distributed everywhere. I think this points out that I2a1b Goths, tired out from constant wars, retreated to Dinaric mountains when Slavs and Avars came to conquer, while Romanized population sought refugee in coastal towns (as Europa Nazione pointed out, J2a M92 and R1b U152, typical Roman haplogroups, are present among families from littoral).
History agrees with this as well. I think this theory could even explain Borreby type in Montenegro and Herzegovina, as it doesn't exist in Slavic lands, and it didn't exist among Balkan natives either- it is present only in Germanic lands.

We even have good part of vocabulary with Gothic origin. Nouns like "stijena" (rock), "brijeg" (hill), "roba" (goods/clothes), "krdo" (herd), "vještica" (witch), "trn" (thorn), "škoda/šteta" (harm), "krov" (roof), "rupa" (hole)- all come from Gothic. Even some basic verbs like "trčati". Here is classification of Germanic loanwords in Slavic languages by Russian linguist Kiparsky:
1. from Proto-Germanic, or Proto-East-Germanic;
2. from Gothic, which have spread to all Slavic languages;
3. from Balkan Gothic, which were confined only to the Slavic South;
4. from Old High German.

As you can see, there are Gothic words that were found only in South Slavic languages, further reinforcing my theory that they got Slavicized after coming to Balkans, not before.



All OstroGoths went from Eastern Europe in 3rd and 4th century when Huns came, some of them were in army of Huns, and some of them fled away seeking protection of Roman Empire.

Why would Goths (and in such numbers) leave themselves in eastern Europe waiting for what in 6th century? Slavicization? LOL, I don't believe in that theory to be honest.

But also I don't believe in theory that I2a were Slavic ppl, IMO I2a ppl lived (before slavs came here) from area of today Croatia all the way to DACIA (today romania).

Later some of them became slavicized, some romanized, and vice versa.

Not all of Ostrogoths left Eastern Europe when Huns came. All Visigoths went, and roughly half of Ostrogoths actually stayed in Ukraine, where they got Slavicized. Not only Goths, but also other East Germanic tribes (Rugi, Bastarnae, Gepids, etc.) all settled mainly in eastern Europe, i.e. in modern day Slavic lands (from Slovakia to Ukraine), and they never left them. They simply merged into Slavs (some into Hungarians too).
But, as I already said, main core of East Germanic ancestry IMO is Dinaric Alps area, evident both by Y-DNA (if I'm right, maybe I'm not :P ), historical accounts, vocabulary, and possibly even phenotypes.


so I2a people went south but without women, they mixed with local Balkan beauties?
Nope. They brought plenty of women.

[Dick]

so I2a people went south but without women, they mixed with local Balkan beauties?

THEY(SLAVS) ALSO BROUGHT WOMEN WITH THEM APPARENTLY

http://i65.tinypic.com/rucq6o.jpg

[catgeorge]

I have some I2a2 no idea how I got it...but in Greece it exists .


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

[Dick]

I have some I2a2 no idea how I got it...but in Greece it exists .


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HAVE 'SOME'?

[catgeorge]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HAVE 'SOME'?

I am an R1b but some family members are an I2a2 - it is confusing me. So thats why I say some

[Dick]

I am an R1b but some family members are an I2a2 - it is confusing me. So thats why I say some

OK BUT M223 OR L38? THEN IT BREAKS DOWN EVEN MORE. YOU WONT KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT A BIG Y TEST. EVERYTHING ELSE WITHOUT ONE IS SPECULATIVE.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/I2a2-tree.png

[Skerdilaid]

I am an R1b but some family members are an I2a2 - it is confusing me. So thats why I say some

Which branch of R1b you belong to?


As for the OP, go suck a fat one, dumb fuck.

[Skerdilaid]

llllll

Bunch of non-sens. Dinaric north and south is evenly distributed among South Slavs, including Greeks - so it sure as hell came with your farmer folk (le slavs).

[Nikomahos]

I have some I2a2 no idea how I got it...but in Greece it exists .


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

EASTERN CRETE LAND OF MINOANS HAS NONE! GLORY TO MINOAS!

[Dick]

Which branch of R1b you belong to?


As for the OP, go suck a fat one, dumb fuck.

YDNA RESULYS WITHOUT A SUBCLADE ARE MEANINGLESS(LIKE 23ANDME FOR EXAMPLE)

[Rethel]

EASTERN CRETE LAND OF MINOANS HAS NONE! GLORY TO MINOAS!

But you do not know, if you are a Minoan :)

[Rethel]

YOU WONT KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT A BIG Y TEST.

Did you make it?

[Robocop]

EASTERN CRETE LAND OF MINOANS HAS NONE! GLORY TO MINOAS!

Minoans were cool dudes.

Anyway, truly... one of my favorite subjects when I was on college, it was called; Bronze Age civilizations of Aegean sea, also worked on Mycenean period ofcourse, 1750 BC.

[Dick]

Did you make it?

I TOLD YOU A MILLION TIMES, YES. MY CLOSEST MATCH WITH NO KNOWN 'SNP' DIFFERENCE IS AN AMERICAN WITH THE SURNAME KROUT.

[cosmoo]

Bunch of non-sens. Dinaric north and south is evenly distributed among South Slavs, including Greeks - so it sure as hell came with your farmer folk (le slavs).
Division of I2a1b "Dinaric" on North and South clades has no real significance (and it is not evenly distributed among South Slavs, as South clade gets much stronger in the west and weaker in east), and as I already explained, it is just a Slavicized haplogroup. You haven't offered a single counter-argument, just a single meaningless, utterly wrong sentence. I advise you not to talk on things you don't know anything about.

[Nikomahos]

Minoans were cool dudes.

Anyway, truly... one of my favorite subjects when I was on college, it was called; Bronze Age civilizations of Aegean sea, also worked on Mycenean period ofcourse, 1750 BC.

Yeah

Did you see the reconstruction they did on a buried Minoan found in Peloponnesos?

Resembles family members and some other folk from Eastern Crete.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/14/23/396503F700000578-3839092-The_team_reconstructed_the_Griffin_Warrior_s_face_ pictured_by_la-m-9_1476484135292.jpg


http://www.griffinwarrior.org/index.html

[Robocop]

Yeah

Did you see the reconstruction they did on a buried Minoan found in Peloponnesos?

Resembles family members and some other folk from Eastern Crete.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/10/14/23/396503F700000578-3839092-The_team_reconstructed_the_Griffin_Warrior_s_face_ pictured_by_la-m-9_1476484135292.jpg


http://www.griffinwarrior.org/index.html

Didn't saw it ...

Damn, a strong jaw and overall skull.

[Rethel]

I TOLD YOU A MILLION TIMES,

Firstly I hear about it.


YES. MY CLOSEST MATCH WITH NO KNOWN 'SNP' DIFFERENCE IS AN AMERICAN WITH THE SURNAME KROUT.

American? I guess, not good... :laugh:

[Nikomahos]

Didn't saw it ...

Damn, a strong jaw and overall skull.

The only thing that is atypical is his skin color, we are whiter but this is how it gets when we tan.

[Dick]

American? I guess, not good... :laugh:

OK AND? HIS PATERNAL ANCESTORS CAME FROM WESTPHALIA.

[Robocop]

The only thing that is atypical is his skin color, we are whiter but this is how it gets when we tan.

Oh I was on Crete, entire Crete, I know how sun burns skin there lol.

I was waitin for a friend 20 minutes outside of market (Iraklion), it was noon, I got a feelin like I was already tanned.

[Skerdilaid]

Division of I2a1b "Dinaric" on North and South clades has no real significance (and it is not evenly distributed among South Slavs, as South clade gets much stronger in the west and weaker in east), and as I already explained, it is just a Slavicized haplogroup. You haven't offered a single counter-argument, just a single meaningless, utterly wrong sentence. I advise you not to talk on things you don't know anything about.

All are under CTS10228, and related within the last 2300 years, so what's meaningless is your incoherent ramble about the Mountain Goths of Crna Gora and Western Balkans: https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

[Rethel]

OK AND?

Do Canadians like Americans?


HIS PATERNAL ANCESTORS CAME FROM WESTPHALIA.

How long difference is between you two?

[Dick]

Does Canadians like Americans?

NO. THEY SUCK AT HOCKEY.


How long difference is between you two?

FROM AROUND THE 1600'S ACCORDING TO AN FTDNA ADMIN. HE TOLD ME HIS PATERNAL ANCESTOR CAME TO THE US TO FIGHT IN THE CIVIL WAR AND STAYED.

[Rethel]

NO. THEY SUCK AT HOCKEY.
FROM AROUND THE 1600'S ACCORDING TO AN FTDNA ADMIN. HE TOLD ME HIS PATERNAL ANCESTOR CAME TO THE US TO FIGHT IN THE CIVIL WAR AND STAYED.

And you have the same surname?

[catgeorge]

OK BUT M223 OR L38? THEN IT BREAKS DOWN EVEN MORE. YOU WONT KNOW FOR SURE WITHOUT A BIG Y TEST. EVERYTHING ELSE WITHOUT ONE IS SPECULATIVE.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/I2a2-tree.png

L38

[catgeorge]

Which branch of R1b you belong to?



L23

[Robocop]

Look, we can for sure assume that I2a people, along with I1, I2b and entire tree of I Y-DNA came from Atlantis when it sank long time ago, and that we are in fact chosen people :D

This can be seen on various examples; we are best in sports, no one can match us there, gave a lot of great minds (myself included), we came and found this continent almost empty, started everythin from ZERO, then R1 and rest took it over :D

hahah

[cosmoo]

All are under CTS10228, and related within the last 2300 years, so what's meaningless is your incoherent ramble about the Mountain Goths of Crna Gora and Western Balkans: https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

Do you even know that estimation means? Because that's what TMRCA dates given on yfull are. TMRCA estimations are calculated using various formulas and can vary for even a 1000 years for some haplogroups. Ken Nordtvedt gives estimation of 2500 ybp. Even if later date is true (and we will never know for sure which one is), it is not outside realm of possibility, since they came to Poland (according to legend from Jordanes) in only three boats.
No one asked you for opinion. Especially considering you don't know shit about this topic.

[Robocop]

....

You are supporter of Gothic theory about I2a1b, ok, no problem, mine is somewhat different theory but nevermind.

So, what is your solution, to make new OstroGothic Kingdom of I2a people and destroy Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia? lol :D

[GoneWithTheWind]

The fact tat there is a lack of I2a in north Albania and other isolated areas in the Balkans should tell you its not indigenous. No i2a din Thracians found so far either.
I2a din absolutely lacks among isolated populations within the Balkans. Something OP is not able to understand it seems. Albanians, specifically north albanian gheg tribes are isolated mountain people that only expanded into the lowlands within the last few hundred years.

Mountains like Malsia served as a refugee place for invasions.

I2a din is either Slavic or Jewish. Or slavicized Jews.

R1a was the original marker of the indo iranians. Making Slavs partially descendants of Indo Iranians. I believed once that i2a was also indo iranian due to the Kurds and Ossetians carrying it.

There are different subclades. Some r1a and i2a subclades are indigenous to the Balkans and found among Albanians and Greeks. But none that Slavs belong to majorly.

The fact that its called i2a dinaric is stupidity itself. More like i2a ukraine.

J2b, ev13 abd r1b are much more related hg's to the Dinaric race.

You can just look at all the phenotypes Dinarics are linked to: mtebids, keltids and baskids, belived to be ancient related phenotypes. I2a totally lacks in some of these people.

Chechens are predominantly hg J. Irish are pred R1b.

Sports? Yes. You are olympic champions in dick sucking.

[Robocop]

I2a din is either Slavic or Jewish. Or slavicized Jews.



First time I ever heard for somethin like this, this sounds like from Science-Fiction movie, no offence.

But then again it would explain our superior intelligence. :D

[Skerdilaid]

Do you even know that estimation means? Because that's what TMRCA dates given on yfull are. TMRCA estimations are calculated using various formulas and can vary for even a 1000 years for some haplogroups. Ken Nordtvedt gives estimation of 2500 ybp. Even if later date is true (and we will never know for sure which one is), it is not outside realm of possibility, since they came to Poland (according to legend from Jordanes) in only three boats.
No one asked you for opinion. Especially considering you don't know shit about this topic.
Moron, it's pointless discussing if the ancestral clade was Germanic farmer 2500 years ago, or if the TMRCA is off by 20-15% - what's important and relevant is that its distribution today in Southeastern Europe is very much connected with the Slavs and their expansion.

[Rethel]

we came and found this continent almost empty, started everythin from ZERO

C1 aka C6 was here!

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=61620&d=1472324987

[Skerdilaid]

L23

So you're my close cousin after all, Mr. Themeles ;)

[Geni]

OP strikes again with his delusion and identity crisis. I call these types wannabe Albanians. All they do is claim Albanian ancestors but act as if they werent proto Albos.

There are plenty of ancient Balkan remains that have been found and not a single one of them was I2a. They were all j2b, j2a, r1b and ev13. Many of them found in bulgaria which has a lot of i2a today. As already also shown by nordtvedt that i2a, atleast the south slavic subclade, is not indigenous to the Balkans. But rather descendants of i2a north and the result of a recent expansion into the south. There are some non slavic i2a subclades that albanians have.

I also always wondered where OP tested and why would he ignore all his relatives from Poland and Ukraine.

A Bronze age sample from Dalmatia also showed not much close genetic affiliation with modern Croats.

Op continues with his retardation by claiming all Albanians are EV13 xD OP has a retarded view of the world like most anthrotards.

OP then proceeds with his delusion by claiming that there was no migration from Herzegovina and Dalmatia and into North Albania/Malsia ,,, which there actually was and Albanian tribes have even tales about this coming from there and even Dardania. Dalmatia is an Albanian Ilyrian toponym and so is Dardani. I've explained the meaning of these words in Albanian a 100 times, what a "coincidence" that it was the same in Ilyrian.

One of the first attests of the Albanian language was in fact in the mountains of Dalmatia.

Albanians are mentioned from Dalmatia all the way down to Dyrrachium (Durres) in a similar period.

Vlachs are just latinized Albanian/Ilyrian city dwellers that absorbed foreign Roman blood during the Roman empire and that, after the Slav and Avar invasions that pillaged the Balkans, retreated into the country side and mountainous areas where they adopted a shepherd lifestyle similar to that of proto Albanians.





Croatia is just another former Albanian land that you stole, but do not worry, we will take it back
:rofl_002::clap::victory0: Money imperator Albanii, Epirotae et Sclaveni...

[Geni]

I had a discussion with @Rethel about this on other thread so I decided to open a thread for this and I will copy my post which I answered to him on other thread for opening post here. THE POINT IS: I2a was in South-Eastern Europe before SLAVS came here, no evidence against that.

So, everything Started with my question for @Rethel, and he agrees with me:

I have more serious question here for you, I know It's not thread for it, but never the less.[/B]

Answer me this without any "R1 group hates I2&I1 and vice versa" thinking, but honestly, do you honestly believe that Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b (mine Y-DNA) came from SLAVS ONLY?

WTF I cannot believe I have to debate this always with some Serbians, and even Albanians, because Albanians are saying that I2a1b is for sure Slavic, because with that they wanna show their monopoly over SouthEastern Europe with E-V13 Y-DNA (their haplogroup, means haplogroup of their people).

And on the other hand you have Slavs who are saying exactly what Albanians are sayin (even though they hate each others), that I2a1b came to SouthEastern Europe WITH SLAVS from central and eastern Europe, I don't believe that, no way, and never will.

As I've just said to one Montenegrian guy, in 2017 & 2018 European ArcheoGenetic along with our University will conduct research on Necropolis in Dalmatia from 4th and 5th century, that Necropolis has 215 graves, all non-slavic, only 4 graves are OstroGothic.

And I am SURE that research will PROVE that those pre-slavic people of Dalmatia had I2a1b, which will DESTROY theory that I2a1b came here with Slavs.

Your opinion please (but again, please without that R1 hates I1,I2 and vice verca)?

P.S. Asking you this because you're Polish and I just had a debate about this with Montenegrian guy, so you are more than fit to answer this, what is your opinion.

@Rethel replied, so I replied again:



Trust me, you don't know half of what is going on with "conflict" between I2a1b ppl and E-V13, because you are too much focused on R1, so this has nothing to do with R1 ppl, just asked your opinion about this, as your neutral opinion.

Albanians (alllll of them) claim that I2a1b (and I2a in general) came with Slavs in 7th century, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE MAN... impossible., go and ask Albanians see what they will tell you. Because their dominant haplogroup is E-V13 and because they have less than 10% of I2a1b their primary goal is to portrait I2a1b as SLAVIC Y-DNA (along with R1a), and that I2a ppl CAME WITH R1a as SLAVS, I swear to you this is their claims, if anyone of them is reading this they can confirm, and I repeat, I have nothin against them, this is just civilized debate if they want it.




No they are not, Serbian dominant Y-DNA is I2a (even though they have less of it than Croats), and Albanian dominant Y-DNA is E-V13.



Well that's my point, nevermind how young is I2a1b, I2 was ALWAYS PRESENT HERE, but not according to Albanians, it came here with Slavs in 7th century, WTF!? All of I2 people came here in 7th century? If that's not madness I don't know what is.




Yes, in fact only Y-DNA, and sure, they will probably find R1b as well, but in this matter this is more about I2a1b and conflict against E-V13, because that would destroy many of Historical things as well, this has nothing to do with Balkan behaviour man but with a true SCIENTIFIC conflict, you wouldn't believe.




I totally agree that I2 was here before Slavs, means before 7th century, but go on and tell that to Albanians you will see their answer.

Also many Serbians are saying also that I2 came with Slavs even though they hate Albanians ROFL, jesus fuckin christ It's like they both hate each others but agrees about this, and I DISAGREE.

I2 Y-DNA WAS HERE BEFORE SLAVS.





I agree, but ask them...

In their opinion and all of Albanian scientists claim that ALL OF I2 people came here WITH SLAVS, with slavs. I cannot fucking believe that, even some Serbian scientists and ppl sayin the same thing, how the fuck could they ALL CAME here in 7th century? with USS ENTERPRISE from Star Trek?

Having in mind that Dalmatia is CENTER of I2 haplogroup, it goes here up to 70%.

Albanian main argument that I2 people came with Slavs here is that one scientist found I2a1b person FROM POLAND, from ancient times, wtf does that proves? NOTHING.

Now if this research proves on that Necropolis that I2a1b (I2) was here before Slavs (and I'm sure it will show that), before 7th century, all of their IDIOTIC MUMBO JUMBO is gone... gone with wind.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NOW LET'S CONTINUE DISCUSSION HERE ON THIS THREAD.

Man because if you see the map only slavic people have it....some little percent in albanian greek and romanians but is atypical for all non slavic peoples and massiv in all south -slavic peoples...i find then normal that they think that is south slavic haplogroup...

[Robocop]

We need ancient dna samples. If the I2a ancestral to modern southern Slavs is found in pre-slavic samples then the OP is right.

Ancient DNA is the key.

And we will know this next year or in 2018, research will be made, and finally we will know, this mystery will be solved once and for all. :)

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Not interested to engage into this debate but damn!!!.....never seen anyone put so much emotions on their posts like Robocop does. :D

[Robocop]

Not interested to engage into this debate but damn!!!.....never seen anyone put so much emotions on their posts like Robocop does. :D

Hahahah don't worry, that's just like my Darth Vader side sometimes, but I am always more Jedi... most of the day :D lol.

[katniss]

Yes, I2a Y-DNA haplogroup is highest in Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina, here is the map:

I2a is highest among speakers of Stokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian language. Proto Croats (real Croats who almost does not exist anymore) were speakers of other dialect. It means I2a could not be proto Croatian. It could be proto Serbian, but it is not sure.


OP strikes again with his delusion and identity crisis. I call these types wannabe Albanians. All they do is claim Albanian ancestors but act as if they werent proto Albos.

:picard1:

Who on Earth want to be Albanian? When Bosniaks or Dalmatians claim Illirian ancestry, they want to say that Albanians are not Illirians. Nobody wants to share ancestry or anything else with Albanians.


There are plenty of ancient Balkan remains that have been found and not a single one of them was I2a. They were all j2b, j2a, r1b and ev13.

There was no Y testing of old bones anywhere in former Yugoslavia except Starcevo culture in Croatia and Hungary (most of samples G2 and two I2). So, stop with the lies.


A Bronze age sample from Dalmatia also showed not much close genetic affiliation with modern Croats.

Preliminary results of a prehistoric human ancient DNA time series from coastal and hinterland Croatia
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303044230_Preliminary_results_of_a_prehistoric_hum an_ancient_DNA_time_series_from_coastal_and_hinter land_Croatia
Samples from Jazinka, Croatia (JAZ1) plot very close to Bulgarians:
http://s32.postimg.org/s3yba4u6t/PCA_JAZ1.png


OP then proceeds with his delusion by claiming that there was no migration from Herzegovina and Dalmatia and into North Albania/Malsia ,,, which there actually was and Albanian tribes have even tales about this coming from there and even Dardania. Dalmatia is an Albanian Ilyrian toponym and so is Dardani. I've explained the meaning of these words in Albanian a 100 times, what a "coincidence" that it was the same in Ilyrian.

One of the first attests of the Albanian language was in fact in the mountains of Dalmatia.

What you wrote is product of imagination of Albanian nationalists. Dalmatia is not Illirian toponym. It could be derived from Greek word dolos. Slovak slavist Safarik claimed it is Slavic toponym (source: link (http://www.svevlad.org.rs/toponimi_files/toponimi_safarik.html)). The Dardania derived name from Greek Dardanus. link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan))


Croatia is just another former Albanian land that you stole, but do not worry, we will take it back

When? :confused:

[katniss]

I know on that fact that R1a is the most common haplogroup among "true" Slavic peoples genetically rather than I2a1b which was described to be originated in the Balkans rather than eastern Europe. Dalmatians look no different from other Mediterranean European nations in my own opinion - racially, culturally and etc.

Pigment was extracted from old bones on archaeological site (I2 carriers) in Loschbour, Heffingen: 50% probability of blue eyes.


We need ancient dna samples. If the I2a ancestral to modern southern Slavs is found in pre-slavic samples then the OP is right.

Ancient DNA is the key.

It would not prove anything. I2 haplogroup was found in an old skeletal samples from Skandinavia, central Europe, Western Europe, Pannonian area, Spain... IN ALL EUROPE... I hope it will be found in Vinča near Belgrade (first European civilization) (http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/serbiavinca.htm).
I remind you there is theory about Balkan - Danubian origin of all Slavs. Many Russian slavists are proponents of this theory.
There is no point in discussing whether I2 or R1a were proto Slavic or not. Most of the Europeans are descendants of I2 or I1 carriers anyway. It does not matter the fact they are mostly carriers of R1 today.

[Rethel]

Nobody wants to share ancestry or anything else with Albanians.

Me!

I share with them a common forefather,
and they are a subdivision of my tribe!

The true ones of course,
quarter of all speakers.

[Rethel]

Most of the Europeans are descendants of I2 or I1 carriers anyway.
It does not matter the fact they are mostly carriers of R1 today.


And this is called oxymoron.:picard2:

[Robocop]

I2a is highest among speakers of Stokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian language. Proto Croats (real Croats who almost does not exist anymore) were speakers of other dialect. It means I2a could not be proto Croatian. It could be proto Serbian, but it is not sure.


OMG :picard1:... You are a SHAME of all SERBIAN USERS here, honest users, including @cosmo who is Montenegrin, to say such BULLSHIT, to make claim on entire Y-DNA HAPLGROUP from NATIONAL point of you (that's EQUAL to retardation)...You are SICK WOMAN, a sick sick sick woman.

GO AND FUCKING JUMP FROM A BRIDGE or somethin you MANIAC, go on.

Your retardation is equal to that of Jovan Deretić, the man who is mocked by entire Serbian Scientific community.

So Romanians and Bulgarians and Ukrainians with I2a are also Proto-Serbian? You fucking SICK MANIAC BITCH! A MANIAC BITCH.

YOU STUPID BITCH, 3/4 OF CROATS SPOKE CHAKAVIAN & KAJKAVIAN DIALECT TILL 1830 when our Croatian parliament DECIDED TO PLACE STOKAVIAN DIALECT (from 1/4 of Croats) as official language to make us closer to YUGOSLAV IDEA, you fucking LYING PIECE OF SHIT WHORE.

PISS OFF from here.


And this is called oxymoron.:picard2:

That woman is ready for Mental hospitel, for a lonnnnnnnnnggggggg time now.

Let them ban me now if they want, that woman is a fucking lying whore, nothing more, nothing less, but a fucking DISGRACE of this forum, a fucking disgrace to common sence.

[cosmoo]

Moron, it's pointless discussing if the ancestral clade was Germanic farmer 2500 years ago, or if the TMRCA is off by 20-15% - what's important and relevant is that its distribution today in Southeastern Europe is very much connected with the Slavs and their expansion.
You simply say that spread of I2a1b is clearly connected to Slavs, yet you never back it up with solid arguments.
East Germanic tribes and Slavs generally settled same places. What matters though is that I2a1b and R1a concentrations is clearly separated. R1a is present in river valleys and fertile plains (generally more to the north), while I2a1b is present in mountainous areas. Do you really think that Slavs (primarily agriculturalist), who, lead by Avars, came after Goths, would conquer land only to settle in most infertile parts of it? :picard2:
You can clearly see this pattern of concentration from this Croatian data:
I2:
Dubrovnik - 54.19%
Zadar - 60%
CroM - 36.364%
Žumberak - 20.455%

Ugljan - 33.824%
Cres - 8.081%
(I2a1b accounts for 239/259 samples of I2)

R1a:
Dubrovnik - 13.408% (15-M558, 8-M458, 1-Z282)
Zadar - 4%
CroM - 32.955% (21-M558, 3-M458, 5-Z282)
Žumberak - 34.091%

Ugljan - 25%
Cres - 56.566%

[Geni]

Me!

I share with them a common forefather,
and they are a subdivision of my tribe!

The true ones of course,
quarter of all speakers.

with me is sure:thumb001: R1 brother...

[katniss]

OMG :picard1:... You are a SHAME of all SERBIAN USERS here, honest users, including @cosmo who is Montenegrin, to say such BULLSHIT, to make claim on entire Y-DNA HAPLGROUP from NATIONAL point of you (that's EQUAL to retardation)...You are SICK WOMAN, a sick sick sick woman.

GO AND FUCKING JUMP FROM A BRIDGE or somethin you MANIAC, go on.

Your retardation is equal to that of Jovan Deretić, the man who is mocked by entire Serbian Scientific community.

So Romanians and Bulgarians and Ukrainians with I2a are also Proto-Serbian? You fucking SICK MANIAC BITCH! A MANIAC BITCH.

YOU STUPID BITCH, 3/4 OF CROATS SPOKE CHAKAVIAN & KAJKAVIAN DIALECT TILL 1830 when our Croatian parliament DECIDED TO PLACE STOKAVIAN DIALECT (from 1/4 of Croats) as official language to make us closer to YUGOSLAV IDEA, you fucking LYING PIECE OF SHIT WHORE.

PISS OFF from here.


That woman is ready for Mental hospitel, for a lonnnnnnnnnggggggg time now.

Let them ban me now if they want, that woman is a fucking lying whore, nothing more, nothing less, but a fucking DISGRACE of this forum, a fucking disgrace to common sence.

:icon_rolleyes:

I am sure that what I wrote is true. It is not my fault you don't like it.
You are insane person. You proved in many times.
Take your pills for hysteria, Robocop.

http://img.webmd.com/dtmcms/live/webmd/consumer_assets/site_images/articles/health_tools/commonly_abused_prescription_drugs_slideshow/getty_rf_photo_of_woman_holding_pill.jpg

[Robocop]

:icon_rolleyes:

I am sure that what I wrote is true. It is not my fault you don't like it.
You are insane person. You proved in many times.
Take your pills for hysteria, Robocop.





Nothin is true there, nothing...

EVERY SANE PERSON here no matter to which Haplogroup belongs can see that you are a RETARD WOMAN, to only make suggestion that ONE HAPLOGROUP could be connected TO ONE NATION, you are a fucking retard bitch.... a retard bitch.

And someone needs to place you on this forum where you belong, AND THAT SOMEONE IS ME.

You pathetic wannabe-North Slavic GYPSIE SCUM. What is your Y-DNA bitch? Is it H? Piss off Gypsie scum.

This goes ONLY TO YOU, not to other Serbs on this forum, you are a woman with mental disorder, a fucking shame for Serbia, do a favor to Serbian users and piss off from this thread.

[Rethel]

with me is sure:thumb001: R1 brother...

Yea, and some another 700.000
top class people in Albania.
The Albanians.

[Szegedist]

Robocop Bre, no sane person thinks that I or E1 are Slavic. This lunacy is only found on TA

[catgeorge]

https://vieilleeurope.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/e11.gif

https://vieilleeurope.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/e6_thumb1.jpg

[Rethel]

Robocop Bre, no sane person thinks that I or E1 are Slavic. This lunacy is only found on TA

I do not belive mine own eyes! :)

[katniss]

YOU STUPID BITCH, 3/4 OF CROATS SPOKE CHAKAVIAN & KAJKAVIAN DIALECT TILL 1830 when our Croatian parliament DECIDED TO PLACE STOKAVIAN DIALECT (from 1/4 of Croats) as official language to make us closer to YUGOSLAV IDEA, you fucking LYING PIECE OF SHIT WHORE.

PISS OFF from here.


LOL. This laughable clown is not able to make a single point in discussion.
Are you trying to say that the Croats speak the Serbian language today????
You should be forced to speak your own Croatian language. It would be real comedy.




You pathetic wannabe-North Slavic GYPSIE SCUM. What is your Y-DNA bitch? Is it H? Piss off Gypsie scum.

I am not wannabe anything.... If I am Gypsy, you are sub saharian African, Robocop. I am pretty sure that I am lighter than you, but it is not important anyway. I have never insulted anyone on national, religious or racial background unlike you. You constantly project your own frustrations on me. It is called PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection).

[Robocop]

...

You are not even worth of wasting my fingers on laptop to write you anything, wannabe-North Slavic.

Here @Rethel is here and other falks from Northern Slavs, maybe they can finally take you to Poland to make you a NORTH SLAVIC WOMAN, but I doubt anyone would want you in their country, you are worse than RADIATION from Atomic bomb.

Ciao.

[Peterski]

we came and found this continent almost empty

41,640 - 29,310 years ago the most numerous Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe was C1. :)

GoyetQ116-1, Belgium = C1a2
Kostenki12, West Russia = C1
Kostenki14, West Russia = C1b
Pavlov1, Czech Republic = C1a2
DolniVestonice13, Czech R. = C1
DolniVestonice16, Czech R. = C1a2

[Robocop]

41,640 - 29,310 years ago the most numerous Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe was C1. :)

GoyetQ116-1, Belgium = C1a2
Kostenki12, West Russia = C1
Kostenki14, West Russia = C1b
Pavlov1, Czech Republic = C1a2
DolniVestonice13, Czech R. = C1
DolniVestonice16, Czech R. = C1a2

Yeah... found them here when we came, true... it was hard to grasp that our Atlantis continent sank and to see all those primitive ppl, but hey... that's life. LOL.

[Rethel]

Here @Rethel is here and other falks from Northern Slavs, maybe they can finally take you to Poland to make you a NORTH SLAVIC WOMAN, but I doubt anyone would want you in their country, you are worse than RADIATION from Atomic bomb.

The only way to became a Venedess is
to marry a Vened. There is no other way! :)

[Rethel]

41,640 - 29,310

:picard1:


years ago the most numerous Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe was C1. :)

Not the ONLY one?


Kostenki12, West Russia = C1
Kostenki14, West Russia = C1b

Rather southern.

[Dema]

Who on Earth want to be Albanian? When Bosniaks or Dalmatians claim Illirian ancestry, they want to say that Albanians are not Illirians. Nobody wants to share ancestry or anything else with Albanians.

Common, you would die to have Albanian only for one night..


I am pretty sure that I am lighter than you, but it is not important anyway.

Prove it, show pic!

[Rethel]

You are not even worth of wasting my fingers on laptop to write you anything, wannabe-North Slavic.

You both simply like each other very much, but you can;t admit it. :)

[Robocop]

I am pretty sure that I am lighter than you, but it is not important anyway. I have never insulted anyone on national, religious or racial background unlike you.

You would be "ligther than me" only if someone would set you on fire than you would glow totally.

You are just pathetic, pathetic...

You are so obsessed with ppl with blonde hair that you cannot think right. I wouldn't trade my brown/light brown hair for anything, because I AM PROUD of what I am, and you are pissing on your own people, you even called half of your countrymen as less worth then you.

Dont you get it? You can be Noric, Nordid, Baltid whatever, but you are PATHETIC AS A PERSON, you have no dignity, none what so ever, not for your OWN PEOPLE, not to mention for others.

YOU ARE SICK.

[Dema]

I2a1b is not originally Slavic haplogroup, but it has arrived on Balkan with Slavic migration that started from fifth century and lasted for circa 200 years. And when that happened they were already Slavicized and mixed with R1a.

I dont see why people who bear I2a1b, also majority of them are Slavs that speak Slavic language dont want to be related to their ancestors that arrived in early middle age?

Closest relatives of Balkan I2a are in Ukiraine, Moldova, Belarus, Poland and not in Italy, Greece or Albania what should have been the case if I2a was native to Balkan.
I admit tho, presence in Sardinia is pretty strange and i would like to hear explanation for that.

[Szegedist]

According to my research, J2 and N are Slavic too.

[Robocop]

Prove it, show pic!

She is wannabe-North Slavic, if that wasn't for laughing it would be for crying lol.

She doesn't have any pride for herself, not to mention for her own ppl, whe would cut her arms just so that Serbs are blonde like Belarus, a sick woman.

[Szegedist]

LOL. This laughable clown is not able to make a single point in discussion.
Are you trying to say that the Croats speak the Serbian language today????
You should be forced to speak your own Croatian language. It would be real comedy.



I am not wannabe anything.... If I am Gypsy, you are sub saharian African, Robocop. I am pretty sure that I am lighter than you, but it is not important anyway. I have never insulted anyone on national, religious or racial background unlike you. You constantly project your own frustrations on me. It is called PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection).

Majority of Serbs have black hair and olive.skin. the sooner you accept this the better.

[GoneWithTheWind]

https://vieilleeurope.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/e11.gif

https://vieilleeurope.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/e6_thumb1.jpg

These maps are pointless and outdated like most maps posted in here. They just represent earlier believed theories. Neither do they show subclades as some r1a and i2a is very old in the balkans, but the south slavic is the descendant of the northern slavic branch


Robocop Bre, no sane person thinks that I or E1 are Slavic. This lunacy is only found on TA

I2a is very common among slavs. It was brought to the Balkans by a migration like 2500-1500 years ago. According to you, genetist Nordtvedt is a lunatic.

Of course ev13 is not slavic

[Dema]

Majority of Serbs have black hair and olive.skin. the sooner you accept this the better.


this is true. There are blond Serbs with light eyes but most Serbs are olive skin with black hair and typical Serbian face.

[Szegedist]

Here is rv12aval, a commie Partisan who thinks she is pure Slavic.
Note the exotic avar features and dark vlach pigmentation.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/3468431165/dad4ba0da5910a5e755df93144bb9d4b_400x400.jpeg
this is true. There are blond Serbs with light eyes but most Serbs are olive skin with black hair and typical Serbian face.

Blonde Serbs are called Serbified Croats Hungarians Danube Swabians (Germans)

[catgeorge]

These maps are pointless and outdated like most maps posted in here. They just represent earlier believed theories. Neither do they show subclades as some r1a and i2a is very old in the balkans, but the south slavic is the descendant of the northern slavic branch



I2a is very common among slavs. It was brought to the Balkans by a migration like 2500-1500 years ago. According to you, genetist Nordtvedt is a lunatic.

Of course ev13 is not slavic

Sure thing Muslim - because Albania isnt listed its pointless. Get out of here scumbag,

[Szegedist]

These maps are pointless and outdated like most maps posted in here. They just represent earlier believed theories. Neither do they show subclades as some r1a and i2a is very old in the balkans, but the south slavic is the descendant of the northern slavic branch



I2a is very common among slavs. It was brought to the Balkans by a migration like 2500-1500 years ago. According to you, genetist Nordtvedt is a lunatic.

Of course ev13 is not slavic

It's not common among Slavs , but along the native Balkanians who were slavified.

Serbs and Montenegrins have high E1, so this makes it Slavic too in your logic.

[Dema]

Sure thing Muslim - because Albania isnt listed its pointless. Get out of here scumbag,

better Muslim then to give your wife to be fucked by Turks for 450 years while you clean their toilet : D

[GoneWithTheWind]

It's not common among Slavs , but along the native Balkanians who were slavified.

Serbs and Montenegrins have high E1, so this makes it Slavic too in your logic.


Its exists in significant % in ukraine/Poland/ and even belarussia and moldova. According to nordtvedts research they found its ancestral clade in poland.

Its high frequency in balkans is the result of a founder effect. But it also has a high frequency in certain areas of northern slav lands

But i guess you know better than genetists

A hg where it has high % doesnt mean it originated there.
Going by your logic ev13 originated in kosovo. Its most likely genetic drift. In Albania, ev13 is only slightly higher than r1b and j2b. But still the highest. While in kosivo it totally dominates with j2b and r1b 2nd in.

Montenigrins are south slavs who many get Albanians as relatives, they are atleast partially of paleo balkan origin. Then they also have germanic origin, slavic etc

Croats and Bosniaks plot very north and close to northern slavs like polaks and hungarians. Only thing that makes more south is the balkan blood they absorbed.

If they were indigenous then they of course would plot close to Albanians. Serbs, bulgarians and fyroms plot closer to albos

You want me to believe croatians were neighbors of Albanians and descendant of same/similar people (thracians,ilyrians) but such a large gap?

As i said, a bronze age sample from dalmatia did not plot with croats. Why do you ignore evidence? It was even closer to bulgarians

A thracian sample plotted similar to some albanians and tuscans etc

[GoneWithTheWind]

Sure thing Muslim - because Albania isnt listed its pointless. Get out of here scumbag,

No. Nordtvedts research says something else for example.

Those maps are just asuming. No evidence. Anybody can create maps like that. They are not to be taken as evidence, rather just "theories" with no proof and which are without a doubt debunked. No i2a din found in ancient balkan samples. A lot of thracians, majority of thracians so far found have been EV13. But they were without a doubt ppl genetically similar to their neighbors. Seeing as Thracian samples plot with Albanians and even tuscans then we can assume ilyrians would plot similar. Ilyria was even closer geographically to Tuscany.

[cosmoo]

41,640 - 29,310 years ago the most numerous Y-DNA haplogroup in Europe was C1. :)

GoyetQ116-1, Belgium = C1a2
Kostenki12, West Russia = C1
Kostenki14, West Russia = C1b
Pavlov1, Czech Republic = C1a2
DolniVestonice13, Czech R. = C1
DolniVestonice16, Czech R. = C1a2

There are still lots of UP samples with I. It is clear that I is original UP haplogroup- since it closely connected only to Europe, unlike C, which is extremely spread out.

[katniss]

... :bullshit:...

... :bullshit:...

... :bullshit:...

This forum is not about me. By the way, I was on TV a couple of times. My face was seen by over 5 million people in one day. I could not care less for the opinion of some Hungarian peasant boy or similar jobless losers. This forum is the last place where I would post my photos. I would be scared if anyone recognizes me on this trash forum. None of my friends know I posted here. One of things I am ashamed is sharing virtual space with disgusting individuals such as szegedists, stears, robocop and similar psycho frieks.

[Skerdilaid]

Sure thing Muslim - because Albania isnt listed its pointless. Get out of here scumbag,

Bro, join our project - you are basically matching me closer than one of the fellas there from my clan :D

[Geni]

:heh:

[Voskos]

Bro, join our project - you are basically matching me as closer than one of the fellas there from my clan :D

How do you know this?

[Dema]

I was on TV a couple of times. My face was seen by over 5 million people in one day..

XXX movie ?

What was movie name? Old lady with cats :D

[Skerdilaid]

How do you know this?

Ask him

[Robocop]

This forum is not about me. By the way, I was on TV a couple of times. My face was seen by over 5 million people in one day. I could not care less for the opinion of some Hungarian peasant boy or similar jobless losers. This forum is the last place where I would post my photos. I would be scared if anyone recognizes me on this trash forum. None of my friends know I posted here. One of things I am ashamed is sharing virtual space with disgusting individuals such as szegedists, stears, robocop and similar psycho frieks.

Don't worry disgusting feeling is mutual.


You both simply like each other very much, but you can;t admit it. :)

Yeah, she "is totally crazy" about me, God forbid to have such woman in my life. She is romantic like T-800 Terminator.

[Szegedist]

This forum is not about me. By the way, I was on TV a couple of times. My face was seen by over 5 million people in one day. I could not care less for the opinion of some Hungarian peasant boy or similar jobless losers. This forum is the last place where I would post my photos. I would be scared if anyone recognizes me on this trash forum. None of my friends know I posted here. One of things I am ashamed is sharing virtual space with disgusting individuals such as szegedists, stears, robocop and similar psycho frieks.
Were you one of the attendees at the Belgrade LGBT pride event ?is that why you made the news ?

[Skerdilaid]

You simply say that spread of I2a1b is clearly connected to Slavs, yet you never back it up with solid arguments.
East Germanic tribes and Slavs generally settled same places. What matters though is that I2a1b and R1a concentrations is clearly separated. R1a is present in river valleys and fertile plains (generally more to the north), while I2a1b is present in mountainous areas. Do you really think that Slavs (primarily agriculturalist), who, lead by Avars, came after Goths, would conquer land only to settle in most infertile parts of it? :picard2:
You can clearly see this pattern of concentration from this Croatian data:
I2:
Dubrovnik - 54.19%
Zadar - 60%
CroM - 36.364%
Žumberak - 20.455%

Ugljan - 33.824%
Cres - 8.081%
(I2a1b accounts for 239/259 samples of I2)

R1a:
Dubrovnik - 13.408% (15-M558, 8-M458, 1-Z282)
Zadar - 4%
CroM - 32.955% (21-M558, 3-M458, 5-Z282)
Žumberak - 34.091%

Ugljan - 25%
Cres - 56.566%

Listen kid, you probably haven't read or followed these discussions as much as I have, or studied the y-dna that is found in the Balkans today in detail. Goths did make an impact in the Balkans, they brought some M223, R1a and I1 (Z63 and Z58), but nowhere comparable with the havoc Slavs caused genetically and linguistically. Slavs poured in hordes, especially in Croatia and really well documented too by the chronicles of the era. They simply replaced the older substrate there, in the low lands and mountains, there is no doubt about it.

I am not going to sit here a split hair with you why there is more I2a Dinaric in the next village than in mine, it's pointless when one has in mind how much Balkan populations have moved around ever since. What matters here is that an I2a Dinaric Albanian, Greek, Serb, Croatian, Macedonian or Bulgarian will have cousins all over Eastern Europe including Belorussia, and sharing a common ancestor within the last 2000-2500 years. Most certainly it's not because of Germanic influence!! Use your head.

[cosmoo]

Listen kid, you probably haven't read or followed these discussions as much as I have, or studied the y-dna that is found in the Balkans today in detail. Goths did make an impact in the Balkans, they brought some M223, R1a and I1 (Z63 and Z58), but nowhere comparable with the havoc Slavs caused genetically and linguistically. Slavs poured in hordes, especially in Croatia and really well documented too by the chronicles of the era. They simply replaced the older substrate there, in the low lands and mountains, there is no doubt about it.

I am not going to sit here a split hair with you why there is more I2a Dinaric in the next village than in mine, it's pointless when one has in mind how much Balkan populations have moved around ever since. What matters here is that an I2a Dinaric Albanian, Greek, Serb, Croatian, Macedonian or Bulgarian will have cousins all over Eastern Europe including Belorussia, and sharing a common ancestor within the last 2000-2500 years. Most certainly it's not because of Germanic influence!! Use your head.
Number of Goths that came was comparable to number of Slavs, and their settling is well-documented in chronicles, read my posts thrououghly before you post a stupid answer like this one.
As for I2a1b Dinaric, of course that it is present in Ukraine and eastern Europe, since most of east Germanic tribes settled there. Heck, variant of Gothic (Crimean Gothic) survived in Ukraine up to 18th century. Of course we won't get matches among modern Germanics (LOL) because East Germanics split from them like 2500 years ago (and were quite different from rest) and settled in eastern Europe (according to legend, they came in three boats). Older clades, like Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are still mainly present in NW Europe.
But funny that you mention that, since my closest matches on ysearch are, coincidentally, Germans. xD
And now... do you really think that same people settled Herzegovina, which has like 60% of I2a1b Dinaric and 10% of R1a, and NW Croatia, which has like 40% of R1a and 14% I2a1b? I already posted data showing how Dinaric Croatian region have dramatically less R1a (up to SIX times) than some more northern regions. If you think this is "splitting hairs over which village has more of this or that haplogroup", then you're flat out stupid.

[Skerdilaid]

Number of Goths that came was comparable to number of Slavs, and their settling is well-documented in chronicles, read my posts thrououghly before you post a stupid answer like this one.
As for I2a1b Dinaric, of course that it is present in Ukraine and eastern Europe, since most of east Germanic tribes settled there. Heck, variant of Gothic (Crimean Gothic) survived in Ukraine up to 18th century. Of course we won't get matches among modern Germanics (LOL) because East Germanics split from them like 2500 years ago (and were quite different from rest) and settled in eastern Europe (according to legend, they came in three boats). Older clades, like Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are still mainly present in NW Europe.
But funny that you mention that, since my closest matches on ysearch are, coincidentally, Germans. xD
And now... do you really think that same people settled Herzegovina, which has like 60% of I2a1b Dinaric and 10% of R1a, and NW Croatia, which has like 40% of R1a and 14% I2a1b? I already posted data showing how Dinaric Croatian region have dramatically less R1a (up to SIX times) than some more northern regions. If you think this is "splitting hairs over which village has more of this or that haplogroup", then you're flat out stupid.
Y12 search? Many halpotypes from differenet branches overlap on 12 markers lmao, I get western european R1b matches on 12 markers that split over 6000 years ago..

Are you fucking kidding me, then why there isn't any I2a Dinaric in western Europe and specifically in Iberia, you I2a snub-nosed crna goran? Have a look at your country, you stupid fuck, the most mountainous region there, Brda, is predominantly E-V13 xD

[DarknessWin]

What has this anything to do with Albanians? If I2a is indigenous to balkans then Albanians would have plenty of it considering Albanians are ancient balkanites but ironically, northern albania has the least amount of i2a found in the balkans because an ilyrian population retreated there and lived in isolated mountains for hundreds of years until they expanded later. Smaller numbers lived in the lowlands and absorbed into Slavs... Fyrom, bulgaria etc .. They all have i2a.. All neighbors to Albanians

I2 is Illirian , E-V13 is pelasgian
you albanians missed that and believe a false history

Same with south slavs who believe that they have slavic blood but in reallity they are native Balkanians

[DarknessWin]

The only way to became a Venedess is
to marry a Vened. There is no other way! :)

Hey Rethel , can you guess the hapl of these people ??
Put the number and the guess

1ST:
http://icestars.narod.ru/zhulin/rus-nat04-9-2.jpg

2ND:
http://www.freeclassicimages.com/images/elvis-presley-0075.jpg

3RD:
http://g4.nh.ee/images/pix/900x595/JGJGtW2DZLc/tonu-trubetsky-74759637.jpg

4TH:
https://mmckenz11.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/david-hume-2.jpg

5TH:
http://ilarge.lisimg.com/image/973757/1118full-nikita-mikhalkov.jpg

6Th:
https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/fl_keep_iptc,f_auto,fl_progressive/q_88/w_3200/w_3200,h_1800,c_fill,g_faces/w_1100/v1394240459/14-svyle-143363531974da28989.jpg

7TH:
http://images.radiotimes.com/namedimage/Unseen_colour_footage_of_David_Attenborough_s_Zoo_ Quest_series_unearthed_from_BBC_archive.jpg?qualit y=85&mode=crop&width=620&height=374&404=tv&url=/uploads/images/original/106280.jpg

[cosmoo]

Y12 search? Many halpotypes from differenet branches overlap on 12 markers lmao, I get western european R1b matches on 12 markers that split over 6000 years ago..

Are you fucking kidding me, then why there isn't any I2a Dinaric in western Europe and specifically in Iberia, you I2a snub-nosed crna goran? Have a look at your country, you stupid fuck, the most mountainous region there, Brda, is predominantly E-V13 xD

I said that I have German matches "coincidentally", which means I get them even though it's not usual for I2a1b Dinaric carriers to get them. Can't you understand that, dummy? FYI on y-search I get 4 markers of difference with them on 18 markers, IIRC (and yes, their haplotype is fully Dinaric South). Normally 90% of people get Yugoslavs as their matches on y-search, but my haplotype is somewhat unusual.

I already explained why there is no I2a1b in modern Germanics- because East Germanic tribes were quite different from rest (most visible linguistically), and they split 2500 years ago. That's about the time of TMRCA of Dinaric. Tell me, how could modern Germanics (except Germans) possibly have I2a1b Dinaric when it was barely formed when East Germanics split? :picard2: Only older clades of I2a1b, Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are still present in NW Europe. Besides that, I2a1b isn't original Germanic haplogroup, but Germanicized one.
There doesn't need to be significant I2a1b in Iberia because Visigoths didn't make up for even 1-2% of total population. In Italy they accounted for even less than 0.5%.

Brda aren't any more mountainous than western Montenegro. In fact, many E1b clans (like Kuči and Bjelopavlići) lived mostly in plains. Seems to me your hobby is talking about things you don't know shit about.

[Danaan]

These maps are pointless and outdated like most maps posted in here. They just represent earlier believed theories. Neither do they show subclades as some r1a and i2a is very old in the balkans, but the south slavic is the descendant of the northern slavic branch



I2a is very common among slavs. It was brought to the Balkans by a migration like 2500-1500 years ago. According to you, genetist Nordtvedt is a lunatic.

Of course ev13 is not slavic

E-V13 isn't Slavic but even Slavs could have had it. I don't know why people don't get that. If E-V13 expanded from Balkans towards the Slavic homeland also (whatever that was) they would have had it too probably. Even the Bulgars could have had it, for example, before moving to Bulgaria. It isn't impossible, at least.

Concerning I2a you forget its prevalence in Arbereshe and Tosks (and in my opinion in Arvanites too although there's no study on that.)

Things are more complex than even some serious geneticists say. (Most of them don't know anything about history. It's very apparent.)

I didn't make any claims here.

[Rethel]

Hey Rethel , can you guess the hapl of these people ??
Put the number and the guess

1. Ą,
2. Ę
3. Ю
4. Ś
5. Ź
6. Ż
7. щ

Michałkow was tested? :confused:

What he has?

[Rethel]

Yeah, she "is totally crazy" about me, God forbid to have such woman in my life. She is romantic like T-800 Terminator.

You are looking what is outside, not inside.
Outside is thornish armor, but inside honey...
Here you have manual (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taming_of_the_Shrew). Read it. Good luck! :)

[Robocop]

You are looking what is outside, not inside.
Outside is thornish armor, but inside honey...
Here you have manual (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Taming_of_the_Shrew). Read it. Good luck! :)

Well yeah, she must be crazy about me, no other explanation, you can just see that in her hatred posts. :cool:

[DarknessWin]

1. Ą,
2. Ę
3. Ю
4. Ś
5. Ź
6. Ż
7. щ

Michałkow was tested? :confused:

What he has?

WTF is that russian letters ?? I asked you to put Hapl in every one
for example J1,J2,R1a etc

[katniss]

Concerning I2a you forget its prevalence in Arbereshe and Tosks (and in my opinion in Arvanites too although there's no study on that.)


They have around 10% of I2 din and some I-M223. I2 is not prevalent among them. They assimilated many Bulgarians and Slavs. Ancestors of Albanians were brought into present day Albania by Bulgarian rulers.
Most of toponyms in present day Albania are Slavic or Greek origin. Recently, politicians in that country have proposed the creation of a government commission to "Albanize" all place names of Slavic origin:
Lexical cleansing: Slavic toponyms in Albania (or out of?)-LINK (http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Albania/Lexical-cleansing-Slavic-toponyms-in-Albania-or-out-of-47472)
On the territory of today’s Albania first settled the Slavs. The Albanians come via Transylvania and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive in today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. That is why we have so many Slavic toponyms in Albania.
Albanians are not indigenous even in the territory of present day Albania, let alone in the territory of present day ex Yugoslavia, although many Catholic Albanians migrated and had been assimilated into Croats. Turko-Albanian branch of R1b among Croats is mostly Albanian origin. On the other side, Serbs assimilated more Greco - Latin Orthodox Christians, which is what both genetics and historical documents present.
There are many Slavic words in Albanian language. On the other side, there is no single Albanian word in Serbian language. There is no single Albanians toponym in Serbia. It would be opposite if Albanians were autochthonous.
South Slavs (I2+R1a+I1) assimilated some indigenous population (real Illyrians), but that population had no genetic or any other connection with Albanians. There are different subclades of J2 and R1b hg. E1 is not exclusively Albanian.
Primary historical sources (documents and censuses of population from medieval times) show that Albanians started to spread into Kosovo after Serbian migrations during Turkish rule. I have posted many times full texts of these historical documents.

[Skerdilaid]

I said that I have German matches "coincidentally", which means I get them even though it's not usual for I2a1b Dinaric carriers to get them. Can't you understand that, dummy? FYI on y-search I get 4 markers of difference with them on 18 markers, IIRC (and yes, their haplotype is fully Dinaric South). Normally 90% of people get Yugoslavs as their matches on y-search, but my haplotype is somewhat unusual.

I already explained why there is no I2a1b in modern Germanics- because East Germanic tribes were quite different from rest (most visible linguistically), and they split 2500 years ago. That's about the time of TMRCA of Dinaric. Tell me, how could modern Germanics (except Germans) possibly have I2a1b Dinaric when it was barely formed when East Germanics split? :picard2: Only older clades of I2a1b, Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are still present in NW Europe. Besides that, I2a1b isn't original Germanic haplogroup, but Germanicized one.
There doesn't need to be significant I2a1b in Iberia because Visigoths didn't make up for even 1-2% of total population. In Italy they accounted for even less than 0.5%.

Brda aren't any more mountainous than western Montenegro. In fact, many E1b clans (like Kuči and Bjelopavlići) lived mostly in plains. Seems to me your hobby is talking about things you don't know shit about.

Whatever helps you cope, you swamp rat.

[Dema]

.
South Slavs (I2+R1a+I1) assimilated some indigenous population (real Illyrians), but that population had no genetic or any other connection with Albanians. There are different subclades of J2 and R1b hg. E1 is not exclusively Albanian.
Primary historical sources (documents and censuses of population from medieval times) show that Albanians started to spread into Kosovo after Serbian migrations during Turkish rule. I have posted many times full texts of these historical documents.

Still spreading fairy tales ? :D


https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/01/29/16/508733.jpg

[Skerdilaid]

Turko-Albanian branch of R1b among Croats is mostly Albanian origin. On the other side, Serbs assimilated more Greco - Latin Orthodox Christians, which is what both genetics and historical documents present..

Turko-Albanian branch, you retarded Shkin :pound:

I count 14 Montenegrins/Serbs R1b-CTS9219>BY611 related to me there:
http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=R1b

[ALL]

Turko-Albanian branch, you retarded Shkin :pound:

I count 14 Montenegrins/Serbs R1b-CTS9219>BY611 related to me there:
http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=R1b

Why don't you start a thread "Origin of R1b-9219+"

[Skerdilaid]

Why don't you start a thread "Origin of R1b-9219+"

Alright, here you go, please contribute: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?195633-Origin-of-R1b-CTS9219&p=4070712#post4070712

[Danaan]

They have around 10% of I2 din and some I-M223. I2 is not prevalent among them. They assimilated many Bulgarians and Slavs. Ancestors of Albanians were brought into present day Albania by Bulgarian rulers.
Most of toponyms in present day Albania are Slavic or Greek origin. Recently, politicians in that country have proposed the creation of a government commission to "Albanize" all place names of Slavic origin:
Lexical cleansing: Slavic toponyms in Albania (or out of?)-LINK (http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Areas/Albania/Lexical-cleansing-Slavic-toponyms-in-Albania-or-out-of-47472)
On the territory of today’s Albania first settled the Slavs. The Albanians come via Transylvania and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive in today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. That is why we have so many Slavic toponyms in Albania.
Albanians are not indigenous even in the territory of present day Albania, let alone in the territory of present day ex Yugoslavia, although many Catholic Albanians migrated and had been assimilated into Croats. Turko-Albanian branch of R1b among Croats is mostly Albanian origin. On the other side, Serbs assimilated more Greco - Latin Orthodox Christians, which is what both genetics and historical documents present.
There are many Slavic words in Albanian language. On the other side, there is no single Albanian word in Serbian language. There is no single Albanians toponym in Serbia. It would be opposite if Albanians were autochthonous.
South Slavs (I2+R1a+I1) assimilated some indigenous population (real Illyrians), but that population had no genetic or any other connection with Albanians. There are different subclades of J2 and R1b hg. E1 is not exclusively Albanian.
Primary historical sources (documents and censuses of population from medieval times) show that Albanians started to spread into Kosovo after Serbian migrations during Turkish rule. I have posted many times full texts of these historical documents.

Arbereshe have I2a (xM26,M223): 10% + I2a-M223: 10%
Your views are biased just like typical Albanian views and do not interest me.

[katniss]

Turko-Albanian branch, you retarded Shkin :pound:

I count 14 Montenegrins/Serbs R1b-CTS9219>BY611 related to me there:
http://dnk.poreklo.rs/tabela-pojedinacne-grupe/?grp-filter=R1b

So what? Among over 1000 samples from the Serbian DNK project you found 14 people who carry your Turko - Albanian branch of R1b. Administrator of Serbian DNK project found the information in ethnographic literature that some Albanian tribe (probably R1b) migrated into central Serbia.

Still spreading fairy tales ?

It is not my fairy tales. It is theory of serious linguists and facts based on historical documents. German linguist and the most famous European specialist in Balkan languages Dr. Gustav Weigand (1860 - 1930) presented 12 facts which prove that Albanians are not Illyrians.
Theory about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians is abandoned by serious scientists because there are many facts that deny this theory.
During the Turkish rule Albanians began to spread into Kosovo which is fact that Turkish censuses of population and other documents clearly show.
In the second half of 20th century copies of historical Turkish documents and defters were transfered from Istanbul into Oriental institute in Sarajevo. These documents were published several times. Medieval and Turkish censuses of population clearly show there were less than 1% Albanians in Kosovo in 1445 (more precisecily 0, 26%). Kosovo Albanians have the Ottoman Empire to thank for their presence in Kosovo.

I linked full texts of documents several times.
Full text of the document, Oblast Brankovica - Opsirni katastarski popis iz 1455. godine (https://www.scribd.com/doc/60208030/Oblast-Brankovica-Opsirni-katastarski-popis-iz-1455-godine)
Information about the document: link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_defter_of_the_Brankovi%C4%87_lands)
If you think that Istanbul Archive and Oriental Institute from Sarajevo (whose experts translated and published these documents) spread fairy tales, send them letter and protest.

[Ülev]

Haplogroup IJ, carried by the Cro-Magnons was in the Middle East and/or Europe about 40,000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Cro-Magnon_migration.gif

[Skerdilaid]

So what? Among over 1000 samples from the Serbian DNK project you found 14 people who carry your Turko - Albanian branch of R1b. Administrator of Serbian DNK project found the information in ethnographic literature that some Albanian tribe (probably R1b) migrated into central Serbia.


imbecile, get it through your thick scull that Turks don't belong to this branch, unless of course they are of Balkan origin.

[Robocop]

Turko - Albanian branch of R1b...

How can you call that branch as "Turko-Albanian"? Either you have no sence at all how to approach to each Y-DNA haplogroups and know that neither of haplogroups can be named by ethnics, not to mention NATIONS, or you are just ignorant and doing that on purpose, OR BOTH?

You don't know how to discuss about anything without insulting someone (incognito), you truly have a problem.

[GoneWithTheWind]

E-V13 isn't Slavic but even Slavs could have had it. I don't know why people don't get that. If E-V13 expanded from Balkans towards the Slavic homeland also (whatever that was) they would have had it too probably. Even the Bulgars could have had it, for example, before moving to Bulgaria. It isn't impossible, at least.

Concerning I2a you forget its prevalence in Arbereshe and Tosks (and in my opinion in Arvanites too although there's no study on that.)

Things are more complex than even some serious geneticists say. (Most of them don't know anything about history. It's very apparent.)

I didn't make any claims here.

There are different I2a subclades. Most Arbereshe were Tosks and some Ghegs. Some i2a in Tosks and Arbereshe is not i2a din. Some is from asimilated slavs/bulgarians. Arbereshe are a small population and most likely under tested too.

Who gives a shit about Arbereshe as if they are a special thing. They are not much different. I get an Arbereshe as match too, j2b2. Might aswell argue i2a din is ancient balkan because some Tosks have it when its most likely from Dacians or Bulgarians. Its possible Dacians absorbed a lot of Iranian and balto slav elements.

Ev13 in the Balkans is indigenous. Majority of Thracians found were EV13, and autosomally similar to Tuscan/Albanian. Why is it hard to understand?

There are different ev13 branches. None that can be linked to slavs.

Youre telling me Albanians and Croats are descandants of the same ppl, thracians and ilyrians? Nice joke. The autosomal gap is way too big.


I2 is Illirian , E-V13 is pelasgian
you albanians missed that and believe a false history

Same with south slavs who believe that they have slavic blood but in reallity they are native Balkanians

Ilyrian my ass. I am descendant of the real Ilyrians. It is Ilyrian in your wild fantasies. If its ilyrian then it would be Thracian too. No Thracians found with this haplogroup. Does not match Croats autosomally either. Neither did the bronze age sample in Dalmatia. I guess you missed that one. All you can do is steal our ancestors like the desperate dogs some of you are. But a real genetists already showed it came with Slavic expansion, why are you ignoring this so much?

Even Romanians plot more south than Bosniaks or Croats. The first are not indigenous to the Balkans. Its only a coincidence Bosniaks are 70% i2a and not r1a. Its a founder effect. Croats are autosomally similar yet have less i2a.

Keep ignoring all the evidence. Some of you need to get a baseball bat to your head because youre too thick to absorb facts. I2a came with slavs, its already proven!!!

And lol @ this psuedo intellectual chavunist bitch r12aval. I dont know where to start on her or if i should spend my time with ppl who wont get much through anyway. Look how much she lies and distorts facts.

[katniss]

How can you call that branch as "Turko-Albanian"? Either you have no sence at all how to approach to each Y-DNA haplogroups and know that neither of haplogroups can be named by ethnics, not to mention NATIONS, or you are just ignorant and doing that on purpose, OR BOTH?

You don't know how to discuss about anything without insulting someone (incognito), you truly have a problem.

Lol. Read your posts.
You definitely have problems connected with:
- my personality
- impossibility of normal discussion with opponents without insults and sudden outburst of anger
- psychological projection and blame shifting
In other words: the sociopaths like you will always accuse other people of doing the very thing that they are guilty of themselves or attribute own characteristics and severe psychological problems to the "enemies". It is very obvious in this thread where you have support from other sociopath szegedist who supported you for fun, trolling and hate toward me. It is beneath my honour to discuss anything with both of you.

[Robocop]

Lol. Read your posts.
You definitely have problems connected with:
- my personality
- impossibility of normal discussion with opponents without insults and sudden outburst of anger
- psychological projection and blame shifting
In other words: the sociopaths like you will always accuse other people of doing the very thing that they are guilty of themselves or attribute own characteristics and severe psychological problems to the "enemies". It is very obvious in this thread where you have support from other sociopath szegedist who supported you for fun, trolling and hate toward me. It is beneath my honour to discuss anything with both of you.


You are a snake which this forum has never seen before.

As I've said, you are insulting various ppl of various nationalities Incognito, pretending as civilized, ppl like you are nemesis, true nemesis, worse than any idiots out there, because you're everythin but not stupid, only a snake full of lies for It's own agenda.

P.S. And yes, I am looking at my posts, and I know that I am good with 99.99% of this forum, including your own ppl, but you... You are nothing more but a snake full of lies for your own agenda, and if you think I will write you with respect, think again, snakes do not deserve respect.

Ciao

[Rethel]

PAX BAŁKANA!

[Ülev]

PAX BAŁKANA!

read this site: http://balkanistyka.org/

[Jana]

I guess it is Slavic based on recent analysis. But, other options possible too.

Illrians were not unifed people ! That is how Romans called them. In Croatia tribes such as Histrians Liburnians and Panonnians were already in Celtic contact zone, so I can't see evidence how Illyrians from Slovenia to Epirus were the same (genetics included).

Before Albanians attack me, I think it is Slavic due to ancestral branch found in Poland. And because according to Byzantine sources Roman provice of Dalmatia was depopulated by wars and plague. Autochtonous people survived in coastal cities and retreted south.

Anyway, Robocop do ftdna test if possible to determine subclade please :D Otherwise you cant really know exactly which branch you belong too. I guess dinaric.

My father matches (37 markers):
3 Croats (Herzegovina) -closest clustering overall
1 Italian (Calabria)-very close match
1 Ukrainian
1 Czech
1 Hungarian (Transcarpathia)
1 Albanian (Kosovo)
2 Germans ( Prussian/Polish Germans)

What to make of it ?

I just know, it is proto European HG and coolest one possible to have! <3

[Trojet]

I guess it is Slavic based on recent analysis. But, other options possible too.

Illrians were not unifed people ! That is how Romans called them. In Croatia tribes such as Histrians Liburnians and Panonnians were already in Celtic contact zone, so I can't see evidence how Illyrians from Slovenia to Epirus were the same (genetics included).

Before Albanians attack me, I think it is Slavic due to ancestral branch found in Poland. And because according to Byzantine sources Roman provice of Dalmatia was depopulated by wars and plague. Autochtonous people survived in coastal cities and retreted south.

Anyway, Robocop do ftdna test if possible to determine subclade please :D Otherwise you cant really know exactly which branch you belong too. I guess dinaric.

My father matches (37 markers):
3 Croats (Herzegovina) -closest clustering overall
1 Italian (Calabria)-very close match
1 Ukrainian
1 Czech
1 Hungarian (Transcarpathia)
1 Albanian (Kosovo)
2 Germans ( Prussian/Polish Germans)

What to make of it ?

I just know, it is proto European HG and coolest one possible to have! <3

You should email your Kosovo Albanian match and suggest he joins the Albanian project here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about
We need more HG diversity :p ATM, our project is being dominated by J2b2, E1b-V13, and R1b.

[Dema]

You should email your Kosovo Albanian match and suggest he joins the Albanian project here: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about
We need more HG diversity :p ATM, our project is being dominated by J2b2, E1b-V13, and R1b.

What we need is R1a, we already have I2a dont we?
And ofc, with me, we got precious j2b1 :D

This is like pokemons, you got to collect them all

[Dema]

Before Albanians attack me, I think it is Slavic due to ancestral branch found in Poland. And because according to Byzantine sources Roman provice of Dalmatia was depopulated by wars and plague. Autochtonous people survived in coastal cities and retreted south.

Anyway, Robocop do ftdna test if possible to determine subclade please :D Otherwise you cant really know exactly which branch you belong too. I guess dinaric.



It is just fact about closest relatives that Robocop dont understand yet : ) He knows he is I2a already, another test would be waste of money.

But if relative system will make him happy then i also suggest to go for it. Also why would Albanians attack you?

[GoneWithTheWind]

I guess it is Slavic based on recent analysis. But, other options possible too.

Illrians were not unifed people ! That is how Romans called them. In Croatia tribes such as Histrians Liburnians and Panonnians were already in Celtic contact zone, so I can't see evidence how Illyrians from Slovenia to Epirus were the same (genetics included).

Before Albanians attack me, I think it is Slavic due to ancestral branch found in Poland. And because according to Byzantine sources Roman provice of Dalmatia was depopulated by wars and plague. Autochtonous people survived in coastal cities and retreted south.

Anyway, Robocop do ftdna test if possible to determine subclade please :D Otherwise you cant really know exactly which branch you belong too. I guess dinaric.

My father matches (37 markers):
3 Croats (Herzegovina) -closest clustering overall
1 Italian (Calabria)-very close match
1 Ukrainian
1 Czech
1 Hungarian (Transcarpathia)
1 Albanian (Kosovo)
2 Germans ( Prussian/Polish Germans)

What to make of it ?

I just know, it is proto European HG and coolest one possible to have! <3



Your fathers results tell me its Slavic. That Albanian and Italian are obviously slavic in origin.

The coolest haplogroup is of course j2b2. It has brought me riches and fortune.

[GoneWithTheWind]

Ilyrians and Thracians might not all of been the same but if I remember correctly a Thracian clustered right next to Tuscans and that says a lot

[Jana]

It is just fact about closest relatives that Robocop dont understand yet : ) He knows he is I2a already, another test would be waste of money.

But if relative system will make him happy then i also suggest to go for it. Also why would Albanians attack you?

He can test dinaric branch specific SNP for really little money (20-40 USD) on yseq :) We need more Croat results and (for example) din-south cluster is quite young and homogenous so there big chance he get position on YDNA tree and deep subclade due to that.


Your fathers results tell me its Slavic. That Albanian and Italian are obviously slavic in origin.

The coolest haplogroup is of course j2b2. It has brought me riches and fortune.

All HGs are cool to learn about. IJ distant cousins from Upper West Asia it seems. ;

[Trojet]

He can test dinaric branch specific SNP for really little money (20-40 USD) on yseq :) We need more Croat results and (for example) din-south cluster is quite young and homogenous so there big chance he get position on YDNA tree and deep subclade due to that.

Agreed. Deeper SNP or STR testing is quite useful in these things. Many people think all that's to a haplogroup is "I2a, R1a, I1, R1b, J2b, E1b-V13, etc".
But what's important is that all these haplogroups are still quite old and have many deeper and younger branches/subclades with different geographic distributions, origins, etc.

www.YSEQ.net is a great option for testing SNPs. One SNP there is only $17.50 and from my experience they deliver results within a week.

[Trojet]

What we need is R1a, we already have I2a dont we?
And ofc, with me, we got precious j2b1 :D

This is like pokemons, you got to collect them all

Yeah, we have a couple of I2a-Din. We don't have any R1a yet, but there is an Albanian who has tested as R1a at 23andMe. He said he is planning on doing FTDNA, so we'll see.

[Dema]

Agreed. Deeper SNP or STR testing is quite useful in these things. Many people think all that's to a haplogroup is "I2a, R1a, I1, R1b, J2b, E1b-V13, etc" but what's important is that all these haplogroups are still quite old and have many deeper and younger branches/subclades with different geographic distributions, etc.

www.YSEQ.net is a great option for testing SNPs. One SNP there is only $17.50 and from my experience they deliver results within a week.

Yea agree that is why my Croat friend will now take most likely Y37 + Autosomal, is that best combo?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?195826-Classify-my-Croat-friend-that-will-test-soon&p=4077013#post4077013

what is best combo with coupons and stuff to take now but we dont want to spend a whole fortune now, maybe around 150$..

[Trojet]

Yea agree that is why my Croat friend will now take most likely Y37 + Autosomal, is that best combo?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?195826-Classify-my-Croat-friend-that-will-test-soon&p=4077013#post4077013

what is best combo with coupons and stuff to take now but we dont want to spend a whole fortune now, maybe around 150$..

Yes, Right now he can get FamilyFinder + Y37 combo for $150 (great deal) by applying a 20% coupon to the combo order.
Look for a 20% Y37/Y67 coupon here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CgXRKz2TySvRqSInveSIYoslO7yexAc9d-BzpNhaY1c/htmlview

[Dema]

Yes, Right now he can get FamilyFinder + Y37 combo for $150 (great deal) by applying a 20% coupon to the combo order.
Look for a 20% Y37/Y67 coupon here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CgXRKz2TySvRqSInveSIYoslO7yexAc9d-BzpNhaY1c/htmlview

ok Thanks Trojet, he he will most likely order it tomorrow. He is first real life friend who was interested in ordering a kit.. He seen a documentary about it before on Nat Geo.

Anyways, can you explain I2a in Sardinia? And do they plot with South Slavic I2a? Also how it got there?

[Trojet]

ok Thanks Trojet, he he will most likely order it tomorrow. He is first real life friend who was interested in ordering a kit.. He seen a documentary about it before on Nat Geo.

Anyways, can you explain I2a in Sardinia? And do they plot with South Slavic I2a? Also how it got there?

No relation between Sardinian I2a and Slavic I2a as they split from each other 18500 ybp: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/
Sardinian is I2a-M26 while Slavic is I2a-CTS10228 (aka Dinaric). See below:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4c/b5/24/4cb5245ac0920c067e45a6025b01c9ce.jpg

[Dema]

No relation between Sardinian I2a and Slavic I2a. Sardinian is I2a-M26 while Slavic is I2a-CTS10228 (aka Dinaric). See below:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/I2a1-tree.png

Thank you for answers Trojet!

[Tschaikisten]

Anyways, can you explain I2a in Sardinia? And do they plot with South Slavic I2a? Also how it got there?
Robocop also support this theory, I think he wrote about it on another forum.
Coincidence? :confused:
http://i.imgur.com/yg7TGnr.jpg

[Robocop]

No relation between Sardinian I2a and Slavic I2a as they split from each other 18500 ybp: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-P37/
Sardinian is I2a-M26 while Slavic is I2a-CTS10228 (aka Dinaric). See below:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4c/b5/24/4cb5245ac0920c067e45a6025b01c9ce.jpg

I tested my Y-DNA back in 2006, it was even before fast internet lol, and I tested it in city Split (Spalato) in Dalmatia, I don't know why but me and my older cousin decided to do it, both of us got same results.

We got in 2006: I1b Y-DNA, then that Y-DNA was renamed into I2a2 until 2010, and today it is I2a1b.

I don't know where is that paper which I got, somewhere in house, I tried to find it in my mother house but nothing, will try it again and again.

The only thing I remember from that paper (I know I am I2a1b lol) and explanation in genetic center is that my Y-DNA genetics is totally common amongst Croats and that I belong to branch of Y-DNA I1b (today I2a1b) which is highest in Croatian nation, means dominant Y-DNA of Croatia.

But this L 161, L 621, CTS4002, L 147, I don't remember nothing of that. Jesus.

[Robocop]

Robocop also support this theory, I think he wrote about it on another forum.
Coincidence? :confused:
http://i.imgur.com/yg7TGnr.jpg

True, this was my theory on which I came with my own thinking and reading...

Having in mind ICE AGE, considering overall I2A in correlation with Sardinian I2A IN DISTANT PAST.

I think there is no doubt that I2A (I2) was here from Mesolithic times and Paleolithic, maybe I am mistaken.

Also my theory was/is that Sardianian branch and Balkan branch got divided as people because IndoEuropean Italics invaded Italian peninsula ofcourse, leading later to Latins, Sabinians etc.

[Rethel]

I tested my Y-DNA back in 2006, it was even before fast internet lol, and I tested it in city Split (Spalato) in Dalmatia, I don't know why but me and my older cousin decided to do it, both of us got same results.

So you are mine phoeniks age-mate!
From which month?


The only thing I remember from that paper (I know I am I2a1b lol) and explanation in genetic center is that my Y-DNA genetics is totally common amongst Croats and that I belong to branch of Y-DNA I1b (today I2a1b) which is highest in Croatian nation, means dominant Y-DNA of Croatia.

I get five red points on a map across whole Europe and thats all. Rare. :)

[Ülev]

^^ you are almost extinct?
do something with that fact!

[Rethel]

^^ you are almost extinct?
do something with that fact!

Now is worse, becasue I am the only one in my type :p

[Peterski]

while Slavic is I2a-CTS10228 (aka Dinaric).

So far, there is only one confirmed basal I2a-Din (I2a-CTS10228*) known, he is a guy from Dębica in South-Eastern Poland:

http://semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/836/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%99bica

There is one more probable basal I2a-Din, from Krywe - also in South-Eastern Poland - but he needs to order a Big Y test:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=yresults

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs&p=198660&viewfull=1#post198660

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krywe,_Bieszczady_County

In my opinion these two results might indicate that I2a-Din originated in Polish-Ukrainian borderlands among Proto-Slavs.

IMO the original Proto-Slavic homeland could be in Eastern Poland, between the Vistula River and Western Belarus-Ukraine.

[Jackson78]

Mislim da je I2a dinarik kome i sam pripadam verovatno na Balkan došao sa Slovenima,ali videćemo šta će dalja istraživanja "stare DNK" doneti.

[cosmoo]

So far, there is only one confirmed basal I2a-Din (I2a-CTS10228*) known, he is a guy from Dębica in South-Eastern Poland:

http://semargl.me/haplogroups/maps/836/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%99bica

There is one more probable basal I2a-Din, from Krywa - also in South-Eastern Poland - but he needs to order a Big Y test:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish?iframe=yresults

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4967-The-origin-of-the-Slavs&p=198660&viewfull=1#post198660

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krywe,_Bieszczady_County

In my opinion these two results indicate that I2a-Din

+1
As I already mentioned, another proof that I2a1b Dinaric isn't native to Balkans.
There are several I2a1b "Disles" bearers that are positive to some Dinaric SNPs (transitional forms), and they all live in northern parts of Europe.
BTW I find it very interesting that Motala12 was positive on L147.2 (SNP that defines Dinaric: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf). Researches were still inconclusive if it's Dinaric or not, but it maybe it could represent haplotype ancestral to Dinaric.

[Peterski]

Interestingly NOT only basal I2a-Din but also basal R1a-M458 can be found in Poland.

For example our famous forum friend Rethel and his family belong to the basal paragroup R1a-M458*. It seems to me that I2a-Din originated in South-Eastern Poland and R1a-M458 in North-Eastern Poland. From a fusion of "Rethelites" with "Dinarides" emerged the Proto-Slavs, and absorbed also a lot of R1a-Z280:

Ancestral Proto-Slavic M458 and CTS10228 (http://i.imgur.com/1XuXCar.png)

http://i.imgur.com/1XuXCar.png

:biggrin:

[Insuperable]

+1
As I already mentioned, another proof that I2a1b Dinaric isn't native to Balkans.
There are several I2a1b "Disles" bearers that are positive to some Dinaric SNPs (transitional forms), and they all live in northern parts of Europe.
BTW I find it very interesting that Motala12 was positive on L147.2 (SNP that defines Dinaric: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf). Researches were still inconclusive if it's Dinaric or not, but it maybe it could represent haplotype ancestral to Dinaric.

Agree. Disles clade is ancestral to Dinaric clade. It is hypothesized that the ancestors of Din clade long, long time ago moved to eastern parts of Europe where they were absorbed into the general eastern population and eventually became Slavs following the formation of Slavs. The problem is that someone can dispute that latter part, but as Litvin shows basal Din clade is found in northern Slavs.

[Rethel]

Interestingly NOT only basal I2a-Din but also basal R1a-M458 can be found in Poland.

For example our famous forum friend Rethel and his family belong to the basal paragroup R1a-M458*. It seems to me that I2a-Din originated in South-Eastern Poland and R1a-M458 in North-Eastern Poland. From a fusion of "Rethelites" with "Dinarides" emerged the Proto-Slavs, and absorbed also a lot of R1a-Z280:

Man, I wasn't there before 1450 :picard2:
30 years earlier, I was there were is blue circle...
And I came there obviously with whole bunch of
Lenczicians, Sieradians, Masovians, even Polans or
maybe Litvins, what have place also. Check for example
Gashtołds, Rachkos, Saczkos and others from the same
areas who came from Lithuania and Rus.

This is totaly wrong reasoning about
things 1000 years earlier and later.

No Lubicz lived there originaly, none.

[Styrian Mujo]

Interestingly NOT only basal I2a-Din but also basal R1a-M458 can be found in Poland.

For example our famous forum friend Rethel and his family belong to the basal paragroup R1a-M458*. It seems to me that I2a-Din originated in South-Eastern Poland and R1a-M458 in North-Eastern Poland. From a fusion of "Rethelites" with "Dinarides" emerged the Proto-Slavs, and absorbed also a lot of R1a-Z280:

Ancestral Proto-Slavic M458 and CTS10228 (http://i.imgur.com/1XuXCar.png)

http://i.imgur.com/1XuXCar.png

:biggrin:

The origin of this HG looks to be in the region which some historins call "White Croatia".

[Robocop]

The origin of this HG looks to be in the region which some historins call "White Croatia".

Yes, for many historians; there truly was RED CROATIA & WHITE CROATIA, it seems that origin of this haplogroup, IF THIS IS origin of that haplogroup, is in white Croatia.

But still, we will know everything next year or in 2018 (have to repeat this one more time), when Y-DNA research will be done on Necropolis of pre-slavic ppl from Dalmatia (210 graves of autochthonous ppl from continental Dalmatia). That Necropolis Knin-Greblje is from 4th and 5th century.

[Ülev]

I revealed the truth here, on R1ethel's thread: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196070-Slavs-in-Rif-Morocco

[Ülev]

I remember that in spread map Dr. Ken Nordtvedt himself locates the start of the I2a2a Dinarics, from now on, namley around the middle course of the Vistula - modern day Pomerania. Estimated age: about 2500 years ago.

Dr. Ken Nordtvedt mentioned:
I2a2a Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.

It is well testified, that 2000 years ago, the Vistula area were still part of Germania. And the Wielbark culture, associated with the Goths, appeared also in the Vistula area about the same time period like the haplogroup I2a2a Dinaric.
The Wielbark culture also had a sudden expansion out of the Vistula, not much more than 2000 years ago.
Spreading out into the same directions like the I2a2a Dinarics in Ken Nordtvedts new spread map.
Both show a huge sudden expansion into the southeast of Europe and the Balkan.
The movments of the slavic people, on the other hand, appear centuries later. Moving slowly from the southeast to the northwest of Europe. (According to historian Peter Heather).

Goths y-dna map:

https://s13.postimg.org/9bh9y6zc7/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Vandals y-dna map:

https://s4.postimg.org/61pogaqd9/I2a1_wersja_2.jpg

[Dema]

Yes, for many historians; there truly was RED CROATIA & WHITE CROATIA, it seems that origin of this haplogroup, IF THIS IS origin of that haplogroup, is in white Croatia.

But still, we will know everything next year or in 2018 (have to repeat this one more time), when Y-DNA research will be done on Necropolis of pre-slavic ppl from Dalmatia (210 graves of autochthonous ppl from continental Dalmatia). That Necropolis Knin-Greblje is from 4th and 5th century.

where did you learn about that Necropolis research? Do you have some link, i want to read more

[Ülev]

Peter Heather the modern day historian and expert of the Goths wrote something very interesting in this connection in his last published book (Empires and Barbarians) concerning the slavic (R1a) expansion:
The Slavs came primary from the southeast and moved slowly sometimes even step by step to the west. But not all Germanic settlements were left when the Slavs moved into the northwest in the 6th century. There were still many farmers and familys in their Germanic homelands. The slavic people took over and the Germanics, have been assimilated by the arrivng slavic population. And the slavic language became the dominat one in these areas.
(The Crimea seemed to be an exception. There was a gothic dialect spoken until the 17th century.)

Goths and Vandals

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Europa_Germanen_50_n_Chr.svg

Vandals ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals

Vandals haplo I2a1a (M26)

I2a1a (M26, L158, L159.1/S169.1) was known as I1b2 until 2005, I1b1b in 2006-7, and I2a1 from 2008 to 2010. It is found in all Western Europe, and reaches maximum frequencies among the Sardinians (37.5%) and the Basques (5%), two population isolates. M26 is geographically restricted to the British Isles, the Low Countries, France, western Germany, Switzerland, Sardinia, Sicily, the west coast of Italy, Iberia and the Mediterranean coast of the Maghreb. The only M26 negative for the L160 mutation are confined to Ireland.

I2a1a-M26 was probably one of the main paternal lineages of the Megalithic cultures of western Europe during the Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods. I2a1a1a (L672) was already found in Mesolithic Sweden, which implies that I2a1a had a very wide distribution from Iberia to Scandinavia during the Mesolithic period, and that they adopted agriculture and freely blended with Near Eastern newcomers.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

[Robocop]

where did you learn about that Necropolis research? Do you have some link, i want to read more

There is no link but my professor (he is not my professor anymore because I work with him after degree lol, but love to call him professor still hah) told us and everyone on our Archaeology department that research will be made along with ArcheoGeneticists from other EU countries.

Only I can do is to tell you that you research on your own about Necropolis Knin-Greblje, if you cannot find stuff you want on Internet (from Archaeology point of view), I can send you various papers from books about it, it is truly a phenomenon when it comes about Necropolis from that period.

Out of 220 graves in that Necropolis, only 4 are Gothic, rest of them belongs to autochthonous romanized ppl.

And what's even better, It's not coastal Dalmatians from that period, but from continental Dalmatia, which is even better.

[Ülev]

compare this map of I2a1a1 (M26)

https://s4.postimg.org/61pogaqd9/I2a1_wersja_2.jpg

with Vandal Kingdom at its greatest extent in the 470s

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Vandalesmaximum.png

btw, they looks quite like me, lol (who saw me could confirm that, lol)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/026_Rekonstruktionsversuch_wandalicher_Trachten_vo n_dem_%C3%84u%C3%9Fere_Karpatensenken_und_Westbesk iden%2C_2_bis_3_Jh._PR_DSC_1315_przeworsk.JPG

picture source and more about Vandals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals

[Robocop]

As I've said on the other thread; @vandaal has also made an excellent points about I2a in this posts he is placing right now here.

[Rethel]

RED CROATIA

Firstly hear.
If so, it should be about Croats from Galicia/Red Ruthenia.

[Rethel]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/026_Rekonstruktionsversuch_wandalicher_Trachten_vo n_dem_%C3%84u%C3%9Fere_Karpatensenken_und_Westbesk iden%2C_2_bis_3_Jh._PR_DSC_1315_przeworsk.JPG

Krak and Wanda? :laugh:

[Ülev]

Krak and Wanda? :laugh:

no, but if Wanda did not want "German" / "Niemca" means that Vandaal woman did not want to marry Goth, this story is pre-r1a invaders

[Ülev]

Firstly hear.
If so, it should be about Croats from Galicia/Red Ruthenia.

White Croats and White Serbs could be already mixed ethnicities, (I2 + R1a)

look again on my maps in Lusatia we have I2 from Goths and Vandals available still

[Rethel]

no, but if Wanda did not want "German" / "Niemca" means that Vandaal woman did not want to marry Goth, this story is pre-r1a invaders

No. Rydygier was from Swabia.

[Ülev]

No. Rydygier was from Swabia.

that's the later story by Wincenty Kadłubek (polonised for political goals) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Wanda

[Ülev]

about Vandals (also with political goals, but still something) but only in polish language here: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacy_a_Wandalowie

[Ülev]

and for example Zaragoza:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saragossa#Historia
Od V w. zajmowana kolejno przez Wandalów, Swewów i Wizygotów = From the fifth century occupied successively by the Vandals, Suevi and Visigoths

and again map of I2a1a1 m26, is this y-dna common in Zaragoza and Aragon?

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/gothorum1/us%20army/I2a1%20wersja%202_zpstx77tkel.jpg

[Lek]

There is no evidence that it was tbh.

[hedonist]

just let it go

[The Blade]

I2a is of Balkan (especially West Balkan) pre-Slavic origin.
It is far more common among Balkan people than among Poles, Ukrainians, etc.
Slavs must have been predominantly R1a stock (however, this does not mean that every R1a subclade is of Slavic origin - of course, this isn't the case).

[Rethel]

I2a is of Balkan (especially West Balkan) pre-Slavic origin.

Yea, but the problem is, how big part of it is CTS10288.

[Rethel]

And the funny thing is, that if not just 2 guys,
I1 liveing around 1200 BC and I2a-10288 living
200 BC the all I-men would be today the small
minority in Europe, not even be able to daring
to aruge about their supposedly "paraIE" place
among Neweuropeans. Just a thought... :p

[Dema]

I believe it arrived with Slavs on Balkan.
My humble opinion. Everything so far is pointing that out.

[Rethel]

I believe it arrived with Slavs on Balkan.
My humble opinion. Everything so far is pointing that out.

I have yet two additional "but":

1. The map suggesting possible route, also fits
to vallachian wandering into the N and NE.

2. Even if some came with Slavs, it doesn;t mean,
that "I" wasn't there earlier, especially, that was
allready found in OE samples.

[Bosniensis]

http://i.imgur.com/c4yLK8D.png

This is how I think it is.

[Rethel]

http://i.imgur.com/c4yLK8D.png

This is how I think it is.

Firstly, you use a map which is wrongly made.

[Grishnack]

Hmm if I2 came with the Slavs that would make Romanians uber Slavic.
Anyway, if Slavs came with the I2, then why don't we have more I2 in the Slavic motherland? It's almost sure that early Slavs didn't have access to genetic tests to determine which one of them is I2 and must go South and which one has R1 and must stay. So I think that I2 is a paleo-Balkanic haplogroup, along with E-V13.

[Rethel]

Hmm if I2 came with the Slavs that would make Romanians uber Slavic.

You are very slavic even without it. :)

[Grishnack]

You are very slavic even without it. :)

I am aware that we are more Slavic than countries who speak a Slavic language, which is a paradox in itself because it raises the question "What makes you Slavic? Speaking the language or having the genes?". Anyway, my point stands. If it is discovered that I2 came with the Slavs (really really really unlikely), then we must re-write all our history and prepare our tracksuits.

[Robocop]

Hmm if I2 came with the Slavs that would make Romanians uber Slavic.
Anyway, if Slavs came with the I2, then why don't we have more I2 in the Slavic motherland? .

Exactly.

It's not ScienceFiction that someone cannot understand this, it's pure and simple facts in all this.

[Drawing-slim]

I am I2a, why not just accept the fact that it has arrived with slavs in the balkans? I see zero point into worrying about that. autosomally i score 95% balkan and 100% european, most relatives albanian E-v13 J2 R1b carriers, , so autosomal dna and based on your relatives is what makes exactly who you're, genetically speaking.

[Robocop]

if Slavs came with the I2, then why don't we have more I2 in the Slavic motherland?

Just want to add this as a reply;

I guess they all moved from there with this:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/50/CGI_USS_Enterprise-D.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131231042932&path-prefix=en

[XenophobicPrussian]

I2a is of Balkan (especially West Balkan) pre-Slavic origin.
It is far more common among Balkan people than among Poles, Ukrainians, etc.
Slavs must have been predominantly R1a stock (however, this does not mean that every R1a subclade is of Slavic origin - of course, this isn't the case).
There could've been a founder effect like R1b in Basques, that isn't enough proof, but yes, it isn't Slavic.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Of course it isn't Slavic. I2a1 was found in neolithic Hungary and Serbia(Starcevo culture), the specific I2a1b1 Balkan clade was found in neolithic Spain and southern Germany. Nothing to do with Slavs.

[Grishnack]

Just want to add this as a reply;

I guess they all moved from there with this:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/5/50/CGI_USS_Enterprise-D.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131231042932&path-prefix=en

Yes, but only those with I2. It's clear that they mastered genetic sequencing before anyone else. Those sexy, advanced Early Slavs..

[The.Mask]

It was proven a long time ago my Croat friend that I2a2 or I2a1b was a haplogroup created in Southern Ukraine 2,500 years ago.

This specific haplogroup and not I2 in general.

Being so, it came in Balkans with Slavs, but also goths spread it . It also came before slavs, maybe 2 centiroes before 700 AD, but for sure it is not native in Balkans and it is associated with populations coming form the east.

[The.Mask]

Of course it isn't Slavic. I2a1 was found in neolithic Hungary and Serbia(Starcevo culture), the specific I2a1b1 Balkan clade was found in neolithic Spain and southern Germany. Nothing to do with Slavs.

I2a2 or I2a1b was created in southern ukraine 2,500 years ago anf come mostly in Balkans with slavs and even goths. This specific clade si comon among bosnians, serbs and croats, not the other sub clades.

[XenophobicPrussian]

It was proven a long time ago my Croat friend that I2a2 or I2a1b was a haplogroup created in Southern Ukraine 2,500 years ago.

This specific haplogroup and not I2 in general.

Being so, it came in Balkans with Slavs, but also goths spread it . It also came before slavs, maybe 2 centiroes before 700 AD, but for sure it is not native in Balkans and it is associated with populations coming form the east.
I2a1b created 2500 years ago when they already found I2a1b1 in two neolithic samples. xD

Cardium Pottery Culture (c. 8,400 to 4,700 ybp ; Mediterranean Europe): E1b1b-V13, G2a (x3), I2a1b1, R1b1c-V88

Again, pan-European farmer haplogroup, just like E-V13.

[The.Mask]

Hmm if I2 came with the Slavs that would make Romanians uber Slavic.
Anyway, if Slavs came with the I2, then why don't we have more I2 in the Slavic motherland? It's almost sure that early Slavs didn't have access to genetic tests to determine which one of them is I2 and must go South and which one has R1 and must stay. So I think that I2 is a paleo-Balkanic haplogroup, along with E-V13.

You are wrong. Plenty of Russians and specifically Ukrainians where from I2a2 originated from 2, 500 years ago have I2a2, it as common od 2nd more common after R1a.

Ev-13 is found almost only in Balkans and might have even be created here like 8,000 years ago,

It was also called the Illyrian haplo group because most of roman-illyrian soldiers settled in Britain near london had these haplo group after being genetically studied.

It is idiotic to continue this debate.

[The.Mask]

I2a1b created 2500 years ago when they already found I2a1b1 in two neolithic samples. xD

Cardium Pottery Culture (c. 8,400 to 4,700 ybp ; Mediterranean Europe): E1b1b-V13, G2a (x3), I2a1b1, R1b1c-V88

Again, pan-European farmer haplogroup, just like E-V13.

It was proven and this is not anymore a prone to debate that this specific haplogroup I2a1b and not I2a1b1 was created just 2,500 years ago in what is today southern ukraine. Just like we do not disucss anymore the theorems of Pitagora, this is not discussed anymore among scientists of genetics.

[Artek]

You are wrong. Plenty of Russians and specifically Ukrainians where from I2a2 originated from 2, 500 years ago have I2a2, it as common od 2nd more common after R1a.

I agree with your views on most of Balkan I2a (kinds referred to as "Dinaric"). It is a very young yet widespread branch of I2 with low TMRCA, as shown here: https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/ (YFull's tree is based on Y-DNA sequencing results) .

I find it hard to believe that it was already widespread among the Illyrians or Dacians (and yet showing such hollow structure), although I see this single I2a founder as a POSSIBLE result of some subset of Dacian, Celtic or Germanic influence on proto-Slavic culture. Alternatively, it could've been an earlier intruder or even an autochtonous neolithic farmer/ hunter-gatherer assimilated by Corded Ware people, for example.


Ev-13 is found almost only in Balkans and might have even be created here like 8,000 years ago,

Actually, TMRCA of 98% of modern V13s is more like ~4100 years, so it's almost twice times lower than the formation age. We have no idea where it has been for those few thousand years, after it finally managed to expand demographically. Single older V13 sample is from Spain, so it is generally connected with the Mediterranean region and not specifically with Balkans (although modern people from Balkans have much of it).


It was also called the Illyrian haplo group because most of roman-illyrian soldiers settled in Britain near london had these haplo group after being genetically studied.

I do not recall any such study, could you provide me with a source?

[cosmoo]

Putting this post up again, since so many members who haven't researched this matter at all like to speak like they're authorities on this subject. Heck, they can't even differentiate between I2a1b-Din and many other I2 clades, yet they still yammer about "paleo-Balkan I2"... just keep quiet and go learn something before you post.

Everything said here is wrong. I2a1b is not native Balkan, it came either with Slavs (but it was Slavicized on north, not originally Slavic) or with east Germanic tribes.

1) Older clades of I2a1b (I2a1b "Disles" and "Isles") are found predominantly in NW Europe.
2) Transition clades between "Disles" and "Dinaric" were found in Germany and Poland.
3) Older clade of I2a1b "Dinaric", named "Dinaric North" (from which our "Dinaric South" descends), is found more in northern than in southern Slavic lands.
4) Ken Nordtvedt calculated estimated TMRCA of it at 2500 ybp, in present-day Poland.
5) All ancient I2a1b found belonged exclusively to northern and western European hunter-gatherers, not a single example being found in southeastern Europe:
-Hunter-gatherers from Luxembourg and several of them from Motala in Sweden, all but one are I2a1b: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html
-Two hunter-gatherers from Swedish Pitted-Ware culture, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...ne-age-sweden/
-One hunter-gatherer from northern France, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-berry-au-bac/

Highest haplotype diversity of I2a1b "Dinaric" is in Poland (concentration and haplotype diversity are not the same thing), which suggests it came from there (haplogroups have highest diversity near place of origin). The very fact that older cousins of I2a1b Dinaric, Isles and Disles (Dinaric actually split from Disles), are found mostly in NW Europe, very clearly says that I2a1b Dinaric is NOT ancient Balkan haplogroup.

[Rethel]

If it is discovered that I2 came with the Slavs (really really really unlikely), then we must re-write all our history and prepare our tracksuits.

Why?
I2men are still not IEs, as they were, and it is well known fact since
Middle Ages, that Vlachs absorbed probably more slavic speakers
than they coundted originaty themselves, so much, that even
language was counted as slavic becasue so many borrowings
were there (and still are). So, what do you want to rewrite
about Romanians if all remains the same?

Already in V-VI century Vallachia and Moldavia were fully Slavic:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/220px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg

[Rethel]

There could've been a founder effect like R1b in Basques, that isn't enough proof, but yes, it isn't Slavic.

Of course it isn't Slavic. I2a1 was found in neolithic Hungary and Serbia(Starcevo culture), the specific I2a1b1 Balkan clade was found in neolithic Spain and southern Germany. Nothing to do with Slavs.

When XP is even talking like a human, then it has
to be truth, regardless, what someone believs in :)

[Bosniensis]

We are inferior in everything nowdays so it's impossible to change "historical facts" written by Germanic peoples and others.

It's a miracle we are still alive.

They don't care!

Germans will continue writing their own history through Books and Wikipedia according to their wishes.

One day we will be reading that First Roman Emperor was a German.

[Peterski]

Of course it isn't Slavic. I2a1 was found in neolithic Hungary and Serbia (Starcevo culture), the specific I2a1b1 Balkan clade was found in neolithic Spain and southern Germany. Nothing to do with Slavs.

I2a1b1 doesn't have anything to do with Slavs. But I2a1b2, defined by SNP L621, does:

https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

The specifically Slavic marker is actually I2a1b2a1, which is defined by SNP CTS10228.

It is very young (TMRCA estimated by Y-Full as 2200 years ago) and very widespread:

https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

So far, the only known basal sample of CTS10228* is a man from South-Eastern Poland:

I-CTS10228* id:YF01476 POL [PL-PK]

PL-PK stands for PL-Podkarpackie (Subcarpathian Voivodeship), near Ukrainian border:

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

[Ülev]

^^ so guy was from Greater Thrace, not Slavic at all

https://s27.postimg.org/apaqsa2r7/dacia.jpg

Slavs came into history in V century?

[Peterski]

Slavs came into history in V century?

That's when they established contact with non-barbarians (people who could write).

Doesn't mean that they didn't exist before. They invaded the Balkans in V century.

[Rethel]

We are inferior in everything nowdays so it's impossible to change "historical facts" written by Germanic peoples and others.

It's a miracle we are still alive.

They don't care!

Germans will continue writing their own history through Books and Wikipedia according to their wishes.

One day we will be reading that First Roman Emperor was a German.

:confused:

[Ülev]

:confused:

yes s1R Rethel, R 1&2 Mongol unity supports each others, lol

[Rethel]

Doesn't mean that they didn't exist before. They invaded the Balkans in V century.

But the problem is, who and where they were. And we still do not know,
if they where a confederacy since the begining or not. If they were, the
slavic name and identity could be established when this event happend.
In such case, they would be no Slavs, before that moment, but couple of
different tribes, according to theory: some Veneds, Iranians, Batls, maybe
also some Thracians, Illirians and unknown folk. But there probably were
somewhere some protoslavic speakers, but did they were Slavs per se?
We will never know this, the same, as you can;t say, who where Cordeds:
Germans, Slavs, Balts, Greeks, Iranians? No, they were all of them, and
noone at the same time. But we still speak their language...