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Inquizzzitor
11-17-2016, 04:17 PM
Lately I've been increasingly fascinated with the genetic clusterfuck that is modern-day France. So many different phenotypes coming into play, so much genetic contribution coming from all over (well, in a Euro/Mediterranean context, at least).

I've seen genetic maps of France that either paint too broad a brush or else are weirdly specific in ways that I find likely unscientific (for example, marking out small, specific areas for "Greco-Roman" contribution, when I am pretty sure there haven't been studies that detailed - see image attached to see what I am talking about).62972

Anyway, I've gotten really interested in it because I have a great-grandmother from France. Right in the very enter of the country. An area called "Creuse." She was pretty dark in complexion (dark brown hair, brown eyes, medum to tan skin), but did have a wider, rounder head which is more typical of Alpine than Mediterranean types. I am not convinced, however, that complexion and hair color is on a purely north-to-south gradient in France. I think it is possible that groups from specific regions of the country, like in the center where my great-grandmother is from, may in fact be darker than native French from other, more southerly places (just an idea).

Take for example another picture, which I did not pre-select in any way, from a religious procession in my great-grandmother's town. I have embedded the picture and linked to the website below in which it appears. Now, take a look at these 30-50 people in this photo. Not a blond hair in sight, even medium brown hair is spotted only on a couple of heads (one of the more obvious lighter brown ones being the teacher walking with the children in the front of the picture).62973

The rest are dark brown, some approaching black. And this is from a small French town in the sparsely populated interior from 60 years ago - so I think it is safe to say this is a random and fair representation of what native French in this area look like. They definitely tend toward the Mediterranean and in my opinion the ratio of dark brown to light hair is a on a ratio consistent with southern Spain, southern Italy, or Greece. They appear (just in my opinion) on average darker than Lombards, and most others in Northern Italy.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creuse_(d%C3%A9partement)

So what do we think of the French? How can we learn more? Have their mean large scale genetic studies of French from various regions? This seems underreported, and the French seem underrepresented given that they are the biggest nation in terms of land Mass in western Europe, have a central figure in European history and France has historically been at the crossroads of lots of different types of influences.

I'll try and find a picture of my great-grandmother if I can.

TheForeigner
11-17-2016, 04:31 PM
The phenotype map is from Eupedia and was made by a French member there. You are right that the French are diverse and it makes sense, considering they live from the North Sea to the Mediterranean.

Inquizzzitor
11-17-2016, 04:37 PM
Hi Foreigner, did you check out the picture of the kids in the religious procession? Seemingly fairly dark for central France, no? They clearly are not full Mediterranean based on facial features, but they are darker than some would think for the middle of France.

Sikeliot
11-17-2016, 09:24 PM
Southwest France is more like the Basque Country and northern Iberia. Southeastern France is continuous with Switzerland, southern Germany, and northern Italy. The rest of France is more heavily Germanic and it shows.

TheForeigner
11-18-2016, 03:15 AM
Hi Foreigner, did you check out the picture of the kids in the religious procession? Seemingly fairly dark for central France, no? They clearly are not full Mediterranean based on facial features, but they are darker than some would think for the middle of France.

Yeah they look dark, but I think it's the light or the lack of it. Northern Italian children are not that dark either.

Valmont
11-27-2016, 01:19 AM
Lately I've been increasingly fascinated with the genetic clusterfuck that is modern-day France. So many different phenotypes coming into play, so much genetic contribution coming from all over (well, in a Euro/Mediterranean context, at least).

I've seen genetic maps of France that either paint too broad a brush or else are weirdly specific in ways that I find likely unscientific (for example, marking out small, specific areas for "Greco-Roman" contribution, when I am pretty sure there haven't been studies that detailed - see image attached to see what I am talking about).62972

Anyway, I've gotten really interested in it because I have a great-grandmother from France. Right in the very enter of the country. An area called "Creuse." She was pretty dark in complexion (dark brown hair, brown eyes, medum to tan skin), but did have a wider, rounder head which is more typical of Alpine than Mediterranean types. I am not convinced, however, that complexion and hair color is on a purely north-to-south gradient in France. I think it is possible that groups from specific regions of the country, like in the center where my great-grandmother is from, may in fact be darker than native French from other, more southerly places (just an idea).

Take for example another picture, which I did not pre-select in any way, from a religious procession in my great-grandmother's town. I have embedded the picture and linked to the website below in which it appears. Now, take a look at these 30-50 people in this photo. Not a blond hair in sight, even medium brown hair is spotted only on a couple of heads (one of the more obvious lighter brown ones being the teacher walking with the children in the front of the picture).62973

The rest are dark brown, some approaching black. And this is from a small French town in the sparsely populated interior from 60 years ago - so I think it is safe to say this is a random and fair representation of what native French in this area look like. They definitely tend toward the Mediterranean and in my opinion the ratio of dark brown to light hair is a on a ratio consistent with southern Spain, southern Italy, or Greece. They appear (just in my opinion) on average darker than Lombards, and most others in Northern Italy.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creuse_(d%C3%A9partement)

So what do we think of the French? How can we learn more? Have their mean large scale genetic studies of French from various regions? This seems underreported, and the French seem underrepresented given that they are the biggest nation in terms of land Mass in western Europe, have a central figure in European history and France has historically been at the crossroads of lots of different types of influences.

I'll try and find a picture of my great-grandmother if I can.

Hi and welcome to the forum!

France is a vast topic. After all it is the largest country in western Europe and the result of various invasions from all over the continent.

There are a few French members on here (myself included) which represent (to some extent) the French "variety". I'm sure they'd be happy any questions you have regarding France.

Here are two "studies" which'll give you more inforation of the French population.

http://anthrofrance.blogspot.fr/

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII2.htm

Poise n Pen
11-27-2016, 01:37 AM
I think much of france's difference is due to real local variation. They are not just x+y+z but have specific french character and even local character which is not easy to classify in terms of mixtures of different coon types. France was particularly the largest center of human population for much of european history and prehistory and that has to be taken into account.

Inquizzzitor
11-27-2016, 02:31 PM
Thanks for these links. As a French-American, with a great-grandmother from the center of France (on the border of Indre department and Creuse department), French genetics are of some interest to me.

Inquizzzitor
11-27-2016, 02:31 PM
I think much of france's difference is due to real local variation. They are not just x+y+z but have specific french character and even local character which is not easy to classify in terms of mixtures of different coon types. France was particularly the largest center of human population for much of european history and prehistory and that has to be taken into account.

Very good point.

JMack
11-27-2016, 02:37 PM
Basque Country (Euskal Herria is its real name) is Northern Iberia, boy.

*fixed

Ilma
11-27-2016, 02:45 PM
The first map you share is not about genetics but about subraces and phenotypes common in those areas

Aëlwenn
11-27-2016, 02:54 PM
Many people thinking we are a mix of other Europeans people.
Creuze has specific look, the best representation is Audrey Tautou I think.

Ilma
11-27-2016, 04:39 PM
Then give a look on the Anthro France works, translated in english :

http://anthrofrance.blogspot.fr/

Cristiano viejo
11-27-2016, 06:39 PM
*fixed

That never existed... just like many current Basque names neither.