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Skerdilaid
11-19-2016, 04:36 PM
Where do you thing this specific branch originated and how it expanded, also if you possibly can, mention how its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587 expanded.

Skerdilaid
11-19-2016, 04:40 PM
CTS9219 on yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/

ALL
11-19-2016, 04:57 PM
http://oi68.tinypic.com/n5sh9x.jpg

ALL
11-19-2016, 05:25 PM
Where do you thing this specific branch originated and how it expanded, also if you possibly can, mention how its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587 expanded.
There are 2 theories,that we have to consider. One is from the Steppe- Eastern Europe, the other is maybe from within Central Europe .Can you post any maps with BY-611 and BY250.

BY-5587+
http://oi66.tinypic.com/4hr244.jpg

Rethel
11-19-2016, 05:26 PM
Subscribed.

Geni
11-19-2016, 05:33 PM
http://oi68.tinypic.com/n5sh9x.jpg

I am PH 544.....and i think if Skerdilaid continue after BY611 will be the same ....

ALL
11-19-2016, 05:43 PM
I am PH 544.....and i think if Skerdilaid continue after BY611 will be the same ....
BY-611 is about 3000 years old+/-
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2n1w5cl.jpg

How old is PH 544?
http://oi63.tinypic.com/30ierde.jpg

Robocop
11-19-2016, 05:59 PM
Well as far as I know R1b CTS9219 is (more or less) 3500 years old, but this goes for Ossetian "branch", on Balkan it is around 2500 years old.

Where this branch started? Well Asia Minor does seem more likely than Carpathian Mountains or Balkans.

ALL
11-19-2016, 06:03 PM
Well as far as I know R1b CTS9219 is (more or less) 3500 years old, but this goes for Ossetian "branch", on Balkan it is around 2500 years old.
Where this branch started? Well Asia Minor does seem more likely than Carpathian Mountains or Balkans.


9219 is about 4300+/- or about 2300BC roughly.
Ossetians are 5586, you might be surprised they are so far downstream.

Skerdilaid
11-19-2016, 06:15 PM
There are 2 theories,that we have to consider. One is from the Steppe- Eastern Europe, the other is maybe from within Central Europe .Can you post any maps with BY-611 and BY250.

BY-5587+
http://oi66.tinypic.com/4hr244.jpg

Most certainly from Steppe with Indo-Europeans, and BY611 specifically with Illyrians. All BY611 found today I think is closely connected with Albanian expansions. Here are some samples that Brygian collected, which I am sure you have seen before: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IlSydR3SyIW7YpHGBO08feux-lqKx1_o4HmwCs6_r08/edit#gid=0


Interesting to note are the Greeks from Smyrna there, sample F41 is matching me GD of 2 on 37, as close as on of the Albanians there that belongs to my clan - so they most certainly are of Albanian origin and Gheg at that, Arvanits are usually more distant to me.

Robocop
11-19-2016, 06:18 PM
Are we all forgetting here which is the oldest IndoEuropean known language, from which civilization and where did that civilization lived? Please no Google.

After that we can start from somewhere and continue, because without that, this is all just searching in the dark.

Skerdilaid
11-19-2016, 06:27 PM
Well as far as I know R1b CTS9219 is (more or less) 3500 years old, but this goes for Ossetian "branch", on Balkan it is around 2500 years old.

Where this branch started? Well Asia Minor does seem more likely than Carpathian Mountains or Balkans.

As Silesian pointed out, Ossetian Cluster is below Y5587, Eastern European Cluster of CTS9219 in other words.

ALL
11-19-2016, 06:31 PM
Are we all forgetting here which is the oldest IndoEuropean known language, from which civilization and where did that civilization lived? Please no Google.

After that we can start from somewhere and continue, because without that, this is all just searching in the dark.

What are your ideas?

Skerdilaid
11-19-2016, 06:40 PM
I am PH 544.....and i think if Skerdilaid continue after BY611 will be the same ....

There are about 12 SNPs below BY611 that me and you are highly predicted to be positive on all of them, so including PH544, PH910, PH2903 etc. that Brygian, Surghey (who is really close to me btw, GD of 5 on 67), Maciel and "Serbian - Ser-7" share.

Robocop
11-19-2016, 06:41 PM
What are your ideas?

Well Hittites (who came with Indo-European invasion) 1750 BC to Anatolia (Hittite language is the oldest known IE lang.) were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled, as well as Lydians and Lycians who arrived 1450 BC.

For now, I am talking about this entire R1b branch, without entering into subclades, they could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Who can say here without a doubt that R1b-CTS9219 couldn't have any connections to all this invents?

Especially having in mind how Hittites were destroyed (by "Sea people", around 1250 BC, as well as Myceneans), so we can look on this problem of R1b-CTS9219 origin in two ways if you are following me about this with Hittites, they could have either went to Caucasus after destruction, went back, or they also migrated to Europe, why not?

Just asking? :) This just came to my mind.

GoneWithTheWind
11-19-2016, 06:48 PM
Most likely IE

ALL
11-19-2016, 06:53 PM
Well Hittites (who came with Indo-European invasion) 1750 BC to Anatolia (Hittite language is the oldest known IE lang.) were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled, as well as Lydians and Lycians who arrived 1450 BC.

For now, I am talking about this entire R1b branch, without entering into subclades, they could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Who can say here without a doubt that R1b-CTS9219 couldn't have any connections to all this invents?

Especially having in mind how Hittites were destroyed (by "Sea people", around 1250 BC, as well as Myceneans), so we can look on this problem of R1b-CTS9219 origin in two ways if you are following me about this with Hittites, they could have either went to Caucasus after destruction, went back, or they also migrated to Europe, why not?

Just asking? :) This just came to my mind. To date there have been more ydna I found in ancient Anatolia. Not one sample of R1b so far in maybe 20 or 30 samples . In all the "Middle East" only one sample of ancient R1b has been found and it is in Northern Iran F38 sample[(F38_Hasanlu, Iron Age Iran]. The problem you have is all the facts point to exclusively European origin of all R1b. For example have you used the Eurogenes K36 calculator and mapped yourself using Tolins map function?

Robocop
11-19-2016, 06:55 PM
To date there have been more ydna I found in ancient Anatolia. Not one sample of R1b so far in maybe 20 or 30 samples . In all the "Middle East" only one sample of ancient R1b has been found and it is in Northern Iran F38 sample[(F38_Hasanlu, Iron Age Iran]. The problem you have is all the facts point to exclusively European origin of all R1b. For example have you used the Eurogenes K36 calculator and mapped yourself using Tolins map function?

Nope.

ALL
11-19-2016, 06:56 PM
Nope.
Do you have a Gedmatch account?

Robocop
11-19-2016, 06:59 PM
Do you have a Gedmatch account?

Nope man. :)

ALL
11-19-2016, 07:10 PM
Nope man. :)
Maybe for Christmas wish list.If you ever get your Gedmatch account you can try Eurogenes K36 and use Tolins mapping function. Really good for autochthonous I2 Euros like yourself.
Anyway When you use it you can see where some ancient samples would plot very roughly. For example Villabruna R1b 14000 years old would plot in Sweden, across in Southern Finland and Baltic are very old R1b Steppe samples. This gives you an idea of 5000-14000 year old R1b From Villabruna Italy to Russian Steppe. You can see not plots in the Middle East, or Anatolia.

Sample R1a cluster in green circle[Rise 598 Ukraine outlier]
Comprised of samples Rise 431,Rise 61,Rise 386,I0419,I0432,
Sample R1b cluster in yellow circle.
Comprised of Villabruna, Khvalynsk,3-Yamnaya, 1-Poltavka
2-R1b-L754's 1-R1b-L23* and 1-R1bZ2103* 2-R1b KMS-75's

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2qwdkeu.jpg


R1b-pop-IBS

R1b-I0231-R1b-KMS-75
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2wcmfpc.jpg-I0231

R1b-L23[L51- Z2103-]
http://I0443-http://oi66.tinypic.com/mhq2jd.jpg-Io443

Robocop
11-19-2016, 07:12 PM
Maybe for Christmas wish list.If you ever get your Gedmatch account you can try Eurogenes K36 and use Tolins mapping function. Really good for autochthonous I2 Euros like yourself.
Anyway When you use it you can see where some ancient samples would plot very roughly. For example Villabruna R1b 14000 years old would plot in Sweden, across in Southern Finland and Baltic are very old R1b Steppe samples. This gives you an idea of 5000-14000 year old R1b From Villabruna Italy to Russian Steppe. You can see not plots in the Middle East, or Anatolia.

Sample R1a cluster in green circle[Rise 598 Ukraine outlier]
Comprised of samples Rise 431,Rise 61,Rise 386,I0419,I0432,
Sample R1b cluster in yellow circle.
Comprised of Villabruna, Khvalynsk,3-Yamnaya, 1-Poltavka
2-R1b-L754's 1-R1b-L23* and 1-R1bZ2103* 2-R1b KMS-75's

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2qwdkeu.jpg


R1b-pop-IBS

R1b-I0231-R1b-KMS-75
http://oi64.tinypic.com/2wcmfpc.jpg-I0231

R1b-L23[L51- Z2103-]
http://I0443-http://oi66.tinypic.com/mhq2jd.jpg-Io443

Well that looks great. Truly :thumb001:

Skerdilaid
11-20-2016, 02:39 PM
well

ALL
11-22-2016, 02:32 AM
Where do you thing this specific branch originated and how it expanded, also if you possibly can, mention how its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587 expanded.
Until we get more ancient samples we can only guess. However if you look at the Tree I posted you can see 7822=2110
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
Do you know what Z2110*means?

GoneWithTheWind
11-22-2016, 01:00 PM
So you think a steppe migration is more plausible or anatolian? Both routes could be IE related though

Proto-Shaman
11-22-2016, 01:18 PM
Well Hittites (who came with Indo-European invasion) 1750 BC to Anatolia (Hittite language is the oldest known IE lang.) were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled, as well as Lydians and Lycians who arrived 1450 BC.

For now, I am talking about this entire R1b branch, without entering into subclades, they could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Who can say here without a doubt that R1b-CTS9219 couldn't have any connections to all this invents?

Especially having in mind how Hittites were destroyed (by "Sea people", around 1250 BC, as well as Myceneans), so we can look on this problem of R1b-CTS9219 origin in two ways if you are following me about this with Hittites, they could have either went to Caucasus after destruction, went back, or they also migrated to Europe, why not?

Just asking? :) This just came to my mind.
Indo-Aryan Hittites were not R1b, but proto-Turkic Hattis were, from whom they got their name btw.

Skerdilaid
11-22-2016, 03:56 PM
Until we get more ancient samples we can only guess. However if you look at the Tree I posted you can see 7822=2110
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
Do you know what Z2110*means?

Take a good guess, it won't hurt you ;) Yes. Paragroup, not positive for its sub-clades. Why?

Skerdilaid
11-22-2016, 07:28 PM
So you think a steppe migration is more plausible or anatolian? Both routes could be IE related though

As far as indo-european languages are concerned, Anatolian theory is not even taken under consideration anymore, basically dead. The only strong link between Anatolia and Europe goes back to Neolithic period, genetically speaking, which of course can't explain indo-european languages and their expansion.

ALL
11-22-2016, 10:03 PM
As far as indo-european languages are concerned, Anatolian theory is not even taken under consideration anymore, basically dead. The only strong link between Anatolia and Europe goes back to Neolithic period, genetically speaking, which of course can't explain indo-european languages and their expansion.

R1b-KMS-67 are stratified under R1a-Z93 in Sintashta region. R1b Z2103 is about 1000+/- yrs older than it's R1a cousin[ R1a-93], found near fortified settlements of Arkaim region[thought by many to be leading candidate for Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers.]

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2a5dmyw.jpg

Modern day frequencies of R1a and R1b around Sintashta are roughly as follows, Burzyanskiy is in the middle of Sintashta region, you can see roughly .52/.31 ratio, R1b-M73& R1b-KMS-67_ R1a-Z93.

http://oi64.tinypic.com/do5169.jpg

CTS-7822 is = Z2110

Nothing is in stone. However, some of these samples may be upstream from us,[until further testing we won't know for sure]
_f3a3b. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS7556 > Y5592* Sweden
_f3a3b. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS7556 > Y5592 > CTS9219 * Germany

The branch of CTS-7822=Z2110 is farther upstream.
From what I understand one sample has gone through bigY test and confirmed Z-2110* from Switzerland! Just something to keep in mind as we wait for more data from both Western and Eastern Europe-Steppe]
There is always the 14000+/- year old Villabruna R1b sample. So until we get more samples we can try our best to guess the migration.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1bBasalSubclades?iframe=ycolorized

Skerdilaid
11-23-2016, 04:15 PM
It's quite possible that CTS9219 was a minor lineage in central Europe, or just east of it, during EBA and expanded during MBA from there considering its distribution today: BY611 seems to have descended down into the Balkans, BY250 spread pretty much all over Europe while Y5587 seems to have not moved around much, basically stayed in Eastern Europe.

ALL
11-24-2016, 12:37 AM
We will have to wait for more samples. Hopefully we will get some soon.

Voskos
04-18-2017, 07:55 PM
imo there's 4 possibilities:

1. Direct Yamnaya origin
2. Ostrogothic origin
3. Illyrian origin
4. celtic/central euro origin

Wrong
04-18-2017, 08:38 PM
imo there's 4 possibilities:

1. Direct Yamnaya origin
2. Ostrogothic origin
3. Illyrian origin
4. celtic/central euro origin
1 & 3 most likely.

R1b in South Slavs barely exists.

Lek
04-19-2017, 05:39 PM
imo there's 4 possibilities:

1. Direct Yamnaya origin
2. Ostrogothic origin
3. Illyrian origin
4. celtic/central euro origin

For this subclade and other dominating subclades I'd say Yamnaya/IE that came to the Balkans with Proto-Illyrian, Proto-Greek and Proto-Thracian expansion. Among non-Slavic Balkanites, R1b is widespread across the Balkans. It's a Paleo-Balkan HG imo.

Pribislav
10-16-2018, 07:54 PM
This branch of R1b exist in Romania and Bulgaria, and it's alien for western Balkans.
https://i.postimg.cc/jdhPnbjY/40432716-883929185135037-4691977678952071168-n.jpg

Albanians have matches with Bulgarians and Romanians not only in R1b-BY611, but in E-V13 and J-M241.

Eastern Balkinic origin of Albanians have more and more sense with genetic researches. Ancestors of Albanians probably migrated from Bulgaria to present day Albania (Mat region) in 11th century.

Kelmendasi
10-16-2018, 08:05 PM
This branch of R1b exist in Romania and Bulgaria, and it's alien for western Balkans.
[IM]https://i.postimg.cc/jdhPnbjY/40432716-883929185135037-4691977678952071168-n.jpg[/IMG]

Albanians have matches with Bulgarians and Romanians not only in R1b-BY611, but in E-V13 and J-M241.

Eastern Balkinic origin of Albanians have more and more sense with genetic researches. Ancestors of Albanians probably migrated from Bulgaria to present day Albania (Mat region) in 9th century.
You really don't know what you're talking about. BY611 and it's descendants especially can all be linked to Albanian expansions or movements, this is evident by it's TMRCA and formation dates as well as frequency and where basal clades are popping up. So the samples in Romania and Bulgaria can all just be of Albanian origin, both places have had historic Albanian settlement though not in large numbers. The Albanian E-V13 and J2b2 hardly match with Bulgarians, a study showed that it matched more with the E-V13 in Bosnia and other Serbo-Croatian speakers. The J2b2 link is because of a Bulgarian from Albania matching Albanians, but it is clear that he is of Albanian origin going by his matches and clade. BY611 isn't alien in the western Balkans, I don't think you know how Yfull works. It has been found multiple time in Montenegro, Macedonia and Serbia but these samples are definitely of Albanian origin. Genetics actually show that west Balkans is far more likely

Pribislav
10-16-2018, 08:09 PM
You really don't know what you're talking about. BY611 and it's descendants especially can all be linked to Albanian expansions or movements, this is evident by it's TMRCA and formation dates as well as frequency and where basal clades are popping up. So the samples in Romania and Bulgaria can all just be of Albanian origin, both places have had historic Albanian settlement though not in large numbers. The Albanian E-V13 and J2b2 hardly match with Bulgarians, a study showed that it matched more with the E-V13 in Bosnia and other Serbo-Croatian speakers. The J2b2 link is because of a Bulgarian from Albania matching Albanians, but it is clear that he is of Albanian origin going by his matches and clade. BY611 isn't alien in the western Balkans, I don't think you know how Yfull works. It has been found multiple time in Montenegro, Macedonia and Serbia but these samples are definitely of Albanian origin. Genetics actually show that west Balkans is far more likely

BY611 is alien uin western Balkans. Few people which carry BY611 in the western Balkans are Montenegrin imigrants, and Sanžakli imigrants among Bosniaks.

Albanians never migrated to Bulgaria and Romnania. Why BY611 is present in Bulgaria and Romania?

Kelmendasi
10-16-2018, 08:14 PM
BY611 is alien uin western Balkans. Few people which carry BY611 in the western Balkans are Montenegrin imigrants, and Sanžakli imigrants among Bosniaks.

Albanians never migrated to Bulgaria and Romnania. Why BY611 is present in Bulgaria and Romania?
It really isn't. As well as all ancestral and basal clades being found west and not east. Albanians did migrate to Bulgaria and Romania, in Bulgaria they moved to villages such as Mandritsa and in Romania they moved to a few villages as mercenaries. BY611 and it's subclades are clearly linked to Albanians and their expansion, this clade is probably the easiest signal of Albanian origin as well as J2b2-PH1751.

Kelmendasi
10-16-2018, 08:22 PM
The Ukrainian sample also probably has Albanian origin. He is from Odessa Oblast, which is exactly where Albanian mercenaries had settled in Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Ukraine

Pribislav
10-16-2018, 08:24 PM
It really isn't. As well as all ancestral and basal clades being found west and not east. Albanians did migrate to Bulgaria and Romania, in Bulgaria they moved to villages such as Mandritsa and in Romania they moved to a few villages as mercenaries. BY611 and it's subclades are clearly linked to Albanians and their expansion, this clade is probably the easiest signal of Albanian origin as well as J2b2-PH1751.

BY611 is native in eastern Balkans and came from Bessi people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Your false Illyrian origin is debunked!

Bessi were Thracian tribe, and there is Besa in Albanian culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)

Bessi/Thracian conection between Albanian and Romanian are except BY611 also common words in Albanian and Romanian languages. Albanian is conected with Aromanian, Meglenitic and Romanian, not with Dalmatian (speakers of Dalmatian were romasnized Illyrians).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P8cjoJPkKg&t=74s

Ancestors of Albanians, Romanians and Aromanians lived in Bulgaria.
Ancestors of Romanians migrated to Wallachia in middle age, ancestors of Aromanians moigrated to Epirus and Thessaly, and ancestors of Albanians mograted to Mat region in Albania.

Kelmendasi
10-16-2018, 08:30 PM
BY611 is native in eastern Balkans and came from Bessi people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Your false Illyrian origin is denunked!

Bessi were Thracian tribe, and there is Besa in Albanian culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_Culture)

Bessi/Thracian conection betweenb Albanian and Romanian are except BY611 also common words in Albanian and Romanian languages. Albanian is conected with Aromanian, Meglenitic and Romanian, not with Dalmatian (speakers of Dalmatian were romasnized Illyrians).

[vio=youtube;5P8cjoJPkKg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P8cjoJPkKg&t=74s[/video]

Ancestors of Albanians, Romanians and Artomanians lived in Bulgaria.
Ancestors of Romanians migrated to Wallachia in middle age, ancestors of Aromanians moigrated to Epirus and Thessaly, and ancestors of Albanians mograted to Mat region in Albania.
You are just coping at this point. You are ignoring how all the ancestral clades of BY611 have been found west and that in Bulgaria it is literally not from there originally, same goes for in Romania, Serbia, Montenegro etc. Bessi is a load of horse crap, and isn't taking seriously anymore. Btw you do know that Besoi was also the name of an Illyrian tribe in Bosnia? Wiktionary places the etymological origin of Albanian Besa to Proto-Albanian Baitsi or Baida.

Proto-Shaman
10-18-2018, 11:27 PM
-------------

Skerdilaid
10-22-2018, 05:03 AM
The Ukrainian sample also probably has Albanian origin. He is from Odessa Oblast, which is exactly where Albanian mercenaries had settled in Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Ukraine

Pribislav is retarded (inbred) bro, so don’t bother with him ;)