Are Estonians Scandinavians/Nordic?

[The Ripper]

Answer mit ze outmost honesty.


Scandinavians are a group of Germanic peoples, inhabiting Scandinavia, which includes Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes. When including the areas of Iceland, the Faroe Islands, Greenland, Svalbard, Åland, and Finland Swedes in Finland, the group is technically known as Nordic

[Loki]

No.

[W. R.]

I'm gonna howl.

[Äike]

Scandinavians no, Nordic yes.

[The Ripper]

Scandinavians no, Nordic yes.

Scandinavian no, Baltic yes, Nordic no, Finnic yes, two legs yes, four legs no.

[Äike]

Scandinavian no, Baltic yes, Nordic no, Finnic yes, two legs yes, four legs no.

Being named after an other group of people is false in my opinion.

There's a reason why Finns are called Nordic, not Scandinavian. The word "Baltic" is associated with this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

I do not want to be associated with people who I am not related with.

[Laudanum]

This discussion will never end. :D

[Wyn]

Nether Scandinavian nor Nordic. The term Scandinavia does not encompass them, nor does the term Nordic countries.

[The Ripper]

Being named after an other group of people is false in my opinion.

How about being named after a mythological Phoenician princess, Europa?


There's a reason why Finns are called Nordic, not Scandinavian.
Yes, the reason is political and geographic, not cultural or ethnic.


The word "Baltic" is associated with this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg/544px-Baltic_Tribes_c_1200.svg.png

Estonia is geographically Baltic, not linguistically or ethnically. Stop mixing shit up.


I do not want to be associated with people who I am not related with.

Weren't you just going on about how Northern Latvians are close to Estonians?

[Äike]

This discussion will never end. :D

If someone would think that the Dutch are related to the French and are speakers of the Romance languages, then you'd probably argue that person for a very long time. ;)

[The Ripper]

There is only one solution. The Final Solution, if you will.

I, as the no.1 representative of Finland on teh interwebz, officially relinquish our status as a Nordic country, so that the term Nordic can once again become synonymous with Scandinavian and North Germanic.

*relinquishes status*

There. Karl, no longer can you terrorize the TA with your pig-headedness.

[Äike]

Yes, the reason is political and geographic, not cultural or ethnic.

Finland is geographically Baltic, but Finland wasn't called Baltic anymore, after the 1940's, because 3/4 of the Baltic countries were gone from the map of Europe.

Then Finland was surrounded by the USSR and the Nordic countries. After WW2, because of the logical cultural similarities with the other Nordic people, Finland was called Nordic instead of Baltic.


Estonia is geographically Baltic, not linguistically or ethnically. Stop mixing shit up.

Estonia(the country) may be what it is, but Estonians aren't Baltic.


Weren't you just going on about how Northern Latvians are close to Estonians?

NW-Russians are close to you... on a genetical level. But culturally, do you feel related to them?

[Äike]

There is only one solution. The Final Solution, if you will.

I, as the no.1 representative of Finland on teh interwebz, officially relinquish our status as a Nordic country, so that the term Nordic can once again become synonymous with Scandinavian and North Germanic.

*relinquishes status*

There. Karl, no longer can you terrorize the TA with your pig-headedness.

Estonia isn't called a Nordic country... As we have shared the same fate with the true(linguistically and culturally) Baltic countries, in the 20th century. Then we are still lumped together with them and Estonia is called a Baltic country.

But it's a completely different thing, when talking about Estonians, the people. Who aren't Baltic, they're Nordic.

In the current year of 2010: Estonia(the country/political aspect) is Baltic and Estonians(the people/cultural aspect) are Nordic.

[The Ripper]

But you aren't linguistically Nordic (=North Germanic) either! :lightbul:

Scandinavian we are no longer (except for in American movies), Balts we've never been. Then let us be Baltic Finns?

[Aino]

Estonians are not Scandinavians. However, they are northern Europeans, and more so than Scandinavians, who have all sorts of non-northern components in them.

[Äike]

But you aren't linguistically Nordic (=North Germanic) either! :lightbul:


Neither are you :lightbul:, but Finns are still called Nordic. Because of the cultural viewpoint.


Estonians are not Scandinavians. However, they are northern Europeans, and more so than Scandinavians, who have all sorts of non-northern components in them.

The Balts are also Northern-Europeans(geographic term), but they're not Nordic(cultural term).

[The Ripper]

Neither are you :lightbul:, but Finns are still called Nordic. Because of the cultural viewpoint.

No, it is mostly due to Cold War politics (on the Finnish side) and Swedish interest in the Baltic region as the Russian Empire collapsed and retreated, opening up new possibilities that were denied for centuries since Russia got the upper hand.


The Balts are also Northern-Europeans(geographic term), but they're not Nordic(cultural term).

So Inuits of Greenland are Nordic? They are your Nordic brothers? Perhaps even more Nordic than you?

[poiuytrewq0987]

The term, Nordic, is essentially an outgrowth of Scandinavism but the definition was never changed.

[Loki]

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4425/picyby.jpg

EDIT: The Germans shouldn't be there, since they're not Nordic in this sense. Don't have the patience to create a new one now. But you get the idea. Crossing the yellow and brown should be a new circle, with Germans located in the new circle but outside of yellow and brown. This should be "Germanic".

[Äike]

So Inuits of Greenland are Nordic? They are your Nordic brothers? Perhaps even more Nordic than you?

From a political aspect, they live in a country which is geopolitically Nordic, but as people(cultural aspect), they're not Nordic. That's my opinion.

At the same time, Estonians live in a country which is geopolitically Baltic, but as people(cultural aspect), they're Nordic.

[Loki]

At the same time, Estonians live in a country which is geopolitically Baltic, but as people(cultural aspect), they're Nordic.

Define a cultural Nordic, please.

[The Ripper]

The term, Nordic, is essentially an outgrowth of Scandinavism but the definition was never changed.

Wrong. The term Nordic is far older than Scandinavism and used to be synonymous with Scandinavian or "North Germanic". It becoming a political-cultural term being applied to non-Scandinavian countries is an outgrowth of Scandinavism, though.

[Äike]

Define a cultural Nordic, please.

Look at Danish, Finnish and Swedish culture. Then think what makes their culture unique/Nordic and you have an answer.

[Loki]

Look at Danish, Finnish and Swedish culture. Then think what makes their culture unique/Nordic and you have an answer.

That would only be part of the answer, since we know that there is a vast difference between Germanic and Finnish culture.

[Matuo]

Weren't you just going on about how Northern Latvians are close to Estonians?
Bad news to Karl - Northern Latvians aren't much different from Southern Latvians (Semigallians, Zemgalians) or Western Latvians (Curonians, Kurlandians). They all speak same middle-Latvian dialect :rolleyes:

Exception are coastal areas of Riga bay and most northern borderline regions, where people in past (little bit also still nowdays) spoke middle-Latvian dialect with Finnic (Livonian, Estonian) accent. This accent made speech to be somewhat different from middle-Latvian dialect, because in this speech were some specifics, which "ignored" Baltic language rules (division in genders, the endings of words, so that they didn't end with usual Latvian endings -s etc.). These kind of speech were called tāmnieku izloksnes, I don't know how the hell it could be called in English language, perhaps, Livonian dialects, but it makes confusion with Livonian language, so I would call perhaps as Tamnieku dialects? But even these dialects, as I said, generally were based on middle-Latvian dialect, just "made funnier" by people, who were Finnic, because they spoke with accent.

So I told you about two Latvian dialects so far - middle Latvian dialect, which is spoken in Northern, Southern and Western areas, and which is closest to modern, normal Latvian language, and Tamnieku dialects, which were spoken by Livonian or Estonian people. But there is also third Latvian dialect, and it is Latgalian dialect. This dialect I consider as most different from normal Latvian language. And actually some people even call Latgalian dialect as seperate language, although I don't really agree. Middle Latvian dialect and Tamnieku dialect evolved in Lutheran areas, where main landlords were Germans, but Latgalian dialect evolved in Catholic areas.

Latvian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Latvaldialekti.svg

[Pallantides]

Estonians are not Scandinavians. However, they are northern Europeans, and more so than Scandinavians, who have all sorts of non-northern components in them.

Like what?

[Äike]

Bad news to Karl - Northern Latvians aren't much different from Southern Latvians (Semigallians, Zemgalians) or Western Latvians (Curonians, Kurlandians). They all speak same middle-Latvian dialect :rolleyes:


Your post about Latvian linguistics was nice, but I was talking about Northern-Latvians being Estonians and Livonians, in a genetic sense.

I think that Latvians are the most Finnic, non-Finnic people.

By some genetic researches, Latvians and Lithuanians have more Finno-Ugric Y-DNA than Estonians. I think that this can be explained by Estonians having 3 times more Scandinavian Y-DNA, which lowers the percentage of other Y-DNA haplogroups.

[Raikaswinþs]

IMO eesti and soumen tasavalta form a group of their own. Including them in the same group than nordics, which are basically north germanic peoples is utterly discriminating.

I like both Norsemen and Finns (spent 6 months there and fell inlove with the land)

But they are two sepparate groups as are Lituanians and Latvians, and Poles, Czechs, Slovaks

[Äike]

IMO eesti and soumen tasavalta form a group of their own. Including them in the same group than nordics, which are basically north germanic peoples is utterly discriminating.

Scandinavians=North-Germanics. Nordic is more of a cultural term.


I like both Norsemen and Finns (spent 6 months there and fell inlove with the land)

They're nice people, I agree.

[Matuo]

Today I found a very good Latvian comment about Estonians, with which I absolutely agree, and which I want that Karl sees:


Ikauņi ir visskaudīgākā nācija kādu esmu saticis. Pie pirmās izdevības vienmēr vēsturiski ir Latviešiem mugurā dunci dūruši. Pat 1939. gadā kad zeme dega zem kājām mēģināja kautko aizmugurski slēgt ar krieviem un nacistiem ar mums pat neparunājuši. Tallinā nav ne Rīgas ne kādas citas Latvijas ielas, Rīgas centrā Igauņijas pilsētām ir kaudze ielu. Viņi mūs uzskata par bezmazvai krieviem, lai gan par spīti visu viņu tā sauktajam "nordiskumam" mēs viņiem kulturāli esam vistuvākā tauta, kad viņiem to norāda tad viņu bezmazvai no biksēm lec ārā sašutumā. Mēģinādāmi mākslīgi attālināties no mums viņi vienmēr iebrauc auzās un novelk lejā visu Baltijas savienību.

Translation:
"Estonians are most jealous nation which I have met. They always historically have stabbed at Latvian back at the first chance. Even in year 1939, when land was burning under feet, they tried to make deals with Russians and Nazis behind our back, without consulting with us. In Tallinn there isn't a single street with Riga's name or any other street with Latvian name, but in Riga's center are many streets with names of Estonian towns. They look at us almost like at Russians, although, despite all their so called "nordicism" we are culturally the closest ethnicity to them. But when for them somebody draws attention to it , Estonians almost jump out their trousers from angriness. By trying artificially getting enstranged themselves from Latvians, they always go out of road, and pull down whole Baltic unity."

http://www.financenet.lv/financenet/viedokli/346454-igauni_atzist_no_latviesiem_ir_ko_macities/comments/page/7

And crashing of Baltic unity means weaker each of Baltic countries, about what are happy our enemies or competitors. Baltic countries are much stronger, if cooperate each with other, and don't try to alienate each from other. After all, we don't have so big inhabitant size (especially, if you count only native inhabitants) nor big distances from our capital cities between each other. Baltic unity would benefit starting from economics until military issues. And, after all, we aren't much different each from other. Even Lithuanians are closer to Estonians than to Poles. If you want to tell opposite, then you simply haven't been in Lithuania or Poland, and don't have a clue about these countries and people. Ask Lithuanians, if they feel close to Poles, and answer you'll get is "no".

Read one Lithuanian comment below youtube video "3 Baltic sisters":


...there's no fucking way that Lithuanians consider themselves closer to Polish. That's actually not true. Lots of Lithuanians make fun of Polish and don't seem to like their roads, language, patriotism and religiousness. I personally and many people i have met in my life feel close to Latvians and Estonians. That's for sure!! No other countries around. But Estonians feel great ties with Finland, that's true.

Another Lituanian comment:


Lithuanians don't feel themselves closer to Poles. And they understand a bit of Latvian.

3 Baltic sisters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcdjchgCbXY)

I think that the Latvian comment above, which I translated, was right that Estonians are very jealous people. Same can be said about Latvians too. Many people say, that Lithuanians are jealous people too (watch the "3 Baltic sisters" videos). This kind of mentality of course doesn't lead to proper cooperation or unity, rather, it leads to competition and talking behind each other's back.
It is time to understand, that jealousiness is a bad psychological trait, from where everybody should get out. We should not be jealous each to other, but helpful and open each to other.

What would you, Estonians, do without the Finnish help??? Thanks to Finns you have little government corruption (Finns have been teaching how to govern), better state economics (Finns have been investing) etc. It's all thanks to Finnish help, and not because you, Estonians, are some kind mysterious "nordic people", like some kind genetic code. Open your eyes, please! Without Finland's help you would be in same place as Latvia or Lithuania!

Who was helping to Latvia? There wasn't a rich and prosperous ethnically related neighbour, who would help. So nobody really helped.

And remember, the closest people to Estonians, culturally and mentally, are Latvians. And not Finns or Swedes. Don't believe it? I can prove.

Check out this map of lesbian and gay rights. I think this map shows something from mentality of countries. Estonia is in same colours as Latvia or Lithuania, not Finland and Sweden.

http://old.ilga.org/Statehomophobia/ILGA_map_2010_A4.pdf

Later I will post other charts, which show mentality patterns. You will be surprised how Estonians are much closer to Latvians and Lithuanians, than to Swedes or Finns. I am not posting right now, because I don't remember right now where exactly I saw those charts.

[The Ripper]

:popcorn::fcinema::pop2:

[Äike]

Today I found a very good Latvian comment about Estonians, with which I absolutely agree, and which I want that Karl sees:



Translation:
"Estonians are most jealous nation which I have met. They always historically have stabbed at Latvian back at the first chance. Even in year 1939, when land was burning under feet, they tried to make deals with Russians and Nazis behind our back, without consulting with us. In Tallinn there isn't a single street with Riga's name or any other street with Latvian name, but in Riga's center are many streets with names of Estonian towns. They look at us almost like at Russians, although, despite all their so called "nordicism" we are culturally the closest ethnicity to them. But when for them somebody draws attention to it , Estonians almost jump out their trousers from angriness. By trying artificially getting enstranged themselves from Latvians, they always go out of road, and pull down whole Baltic unity."

http://www.financenet.lv/financenet/viedokli/346454-igauni_atzist_no_latviesiem_ir_ko_macities/comments/page/7

Ungrateful Latvians... We have helped your people a lot. During the Estonian Independence war, we actually did fight the Soviets and the Germans, just to liberate Latvia. The result: Afterward, Latvians threatened with war, if they cannot get some Estonian border areas incorporated into their territory. Luckily, it didn't result in war, although the Latvian military forces were preparing for one. Latvia got some Estonian areas and the conflict was solved.

Liberating your country = backstabbing? Looks more like trolling.


And crashing of Baltic unity means weaker each of Baltic countries, about what are happy our enemies or competitors. Baltic countries are much stronger, if cooperate each with other, and don't try to alienate each from other. After all, we don't have so big inhabitant size (especially, if you count only native inhabitants) nor big distances from our capital cities between each other.

There is not Baltic unity, our current president has mentioned that. Estonians and the Balts do not have the same common mentality. We think differently.

Oh really? I can get to Helsinki in an hour, while the trip to Riga takes half a day. I've never been to Vilnius, because of the distance, sitting in a car for a day isn't fun. I think that Stockholm is closer to Tallinn, than Vilnius.


Baltic unity would benefit starting from economics until military issues. And, after all, we aren't much different each from other. Even Lithuanians are closer to Estonians than to Poles. If you want to tell opposite, then you simply haven't been in Lithuania or Poland, and don't have a clue about these countries and people. Ask Lithuanians, if they feel close to Poles, and answer you'll get is "no".

Lithuanians are historically and culturally closer to Poles than to Estonians. They had the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and they're both Catholic. Latvians also have more Catholics than Lutherans. While Estonians are Lutheran.


Read one Lithuanian comment below youtube video "3 Baltic sisters":



Another Lituanian comment:



3 Baltic sisters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcdjchgCbXY)

I think that the Latvian comment above, which I translated, was right that Estonians are very jealous people. Same can be said about Latvians too. Many people say, that Lithuanians are jealous people too (watch the "3 Baltic sisters" videos). This kind of mentality of course doesn't lead to proper cooperation or unity, rather, it leads to competition and talking behind each other's back.

3 Baltic sisters? Is that some kind of term common south there? I haven't heard about this before. It would be "3 Balti õde" in Estonian, I have never heard this term.


It is time to understand, that jealousiness is a bad psychological trait, from where everybody should get out. We should not be jealous each to other, but helpful and open each to other.

Then stop being jealous. I do not consider myself to be a Balt, as I do not speak a Baltic language nor descend from Indo-Europeans. It isn't related to jealousy.


What would you, Estonians, do without the Finnish help??? Thanks to Finns you have little government corruption (Finns have been teaching how to govern), better state economics (Finns have been investing) etc. It's all thanks to Finnish help, and not because you, Estonians, are some kind mysterious "nordic people", like some kind genetic code. Open your eyes, please! Without Finland's help you would be in same place as Latvia or Lithuania!

lol... I can recommend you a very good history book about Estonia, that speaks about the 90's from an economic viewpoint. It's written by the 2 time prime minister, Mart Laar. As far as I know, it's written in Estonian and translated to German. Now, if you'd be a Finn, then learning Estonian wouldn't be hard and you could read the book quite soon. But as you're a Balt and speak a completely alien language, you cannot understand a word of Estonian. As we are not related.

Without Finnish help, Estonia would still be in a better state than Latvia or Lithuania. You are severely emphasizing "help". What did the Finns do? Give the Estonian government free money? Sending 5 000 000 000 dollars onto the Estonian government bank account every month? No... Our current good economic level is the result of hard work.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16643


Lithuaniatribune.com writes with reference to weekly Veidas that the wealth gap between Estonia and the rest of the Baltic states was widening because of religion.

Explaining why Estonians have been less willing to emigrate than their southern neighbours, why they have higher monthly wages and the old age pensions (more than 20 percent higher than in Lithuania) and why Estonia’s GDP is higher than Lithuania’s by 12 percent, Lithuaian sociologist Mindaugas Degutis says religion is the major factor influencing this trend.

He said: “Estonians are Protestants and sociologist Max Weber already a hundred years ago noticed a link between Protestantism and economic development because the followers of this religion believe that they will be redeemed if they are good at work. This could have contributed to the factors that have led to the leadership of the Estonians – a faster and more successful implementation of reforms, the discipline which is characterises the Nordic countries, a political system more focused on pragmatic functioning instead of populist attitudes.”




Who was helping to Latvia? There wasn't a rich and prosperous ethnically related neighbour, who would help. So nobody really helped.

And remember, the closest people to Estonians, culturally and mentally, are Latvians. And not Finns or Swedes. Don't believe it? I can prove.

Check out this map of lesbian and gay rights. I think this map shows something from mentality of countries. Estonia is in same colours as Latvia or Lithuania, not Finland and Sweden.

http://old.ilga.org/Statehomophobia/ILGA_map_2010_A4.pdf

Later I will post other charts, which show mentality patterns. You will be surprised how Estonians are much closer to Latvians and Lithuanians, than to Swedes or Finns. I am not posting right now, because I don't remember right now where exactly I saw those charts.

lesbian and gay rights make people similar, right...

Anyway, Mart Laar the 2 time prime minister has said this many times: "The people have to help themselves, that's what the Estonians did in the 1990's and that's why we are so successful".

You have a wrong (Latvian?) mentality. Someone has to help you, otherwise you cannot be successful. You have to help yourself to become successful, not someone else. This applies also to ethnicities and countries.

You speak a completely different language than me. It stops here. How can I be similar to your, if I cannot understand a single word you are speaking in your native language.

Anyone saying that Finns aren't the most similar people to Estonians, are either trolls, idiots or both. Finns are our historic/cultural/linguistic brothers.

[Praamžius]

Lithuania was in commonwealth with Poland , but that doesn't make us related to them.Many Lithuanians are filled with hatred towards Poland especially young ones.Don't ask me why , often older poles in Lithuania get offended if they ask you something in polish and you reply in lihuanian or russian.Than there is some polish representative politician which is rly annoying c@nt.So i guess that's the reasons.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

That would only be part of the answer, since we know that there is a vast difference between Germanic and Finnish culture.

Define "vast".

[Matuo]

Ungrateful Latvians... We have helped your people a lot. During the Estonian Independence war, we actually did fight the Soviets and the Germans, just to liberate Latvia.
Ungrateful? We have several streets named after Estonian towns in Riga! Tallinas iela, Pērnavas iela, Tērbatas iela, Narvas iela etc.!

Where are Latvian street names in Tallinn, the capital of ungrateful Estonians?


The result: Afterward, Latvians threatened with war, if they cannot get some Estonian border areas incorporated into their territory. Luckily, it didn't result in war, although the Latvian military forces were preparing for one. Latvia got some Estonian areas and the conflict was solved.
Source please.

And BTW which areas in Latvia you call as "Estonian areas"? Perhaps, Ainaži? (which you proudly have called as "Estonian area"). But it was Livonian area! There were living Livonians, not Estonians. Name "Ainaži" itself is said to be descended from Livonian word "ainagi" ("lonely"). Also town Salacgrīva, which you included in Estonian areas, actually was Livonian area! I have relatives, who come from these areas, they even still have Tamnieku accent in their speech. People there consider themselves as descendants of Livonians, not Estonians. Also, before indenpendent Latvia was created, in Ainaži Latvian man Krisjānis Valdemārs created sea school, where both Estonians and Latvians were studying shipping etc. There was also port, which after 1 world war was destroyed.

I know that some areas in Northern Vidzeme were Estonian (Ape, near Alūksne etc.), which Latvia took away.

But you, Estonians, weren't any kind of sweet lambs either. You pretended on Latvian areas too, on Livonian areas, you grabbed away Ruhnu island. Your country, which has 1000+ (!!!) islands couldn't give away to Latvia one, single one, which was inhabited only by ethnic Swedes...The Swedes, according to what I have heard, agreed to join in Latvia.


Liberating your country = backstabbing? Looks more like trolling.
Hah, you, Karl, previously wrote yourself, that Estonians were liberating Latvia only because it was for own Estonian interests! Not because Estonians were really interested in liberating Latvia! Your own words!!! :rolleyes2:

Well, no wonder that it is easy to suspect Estonians on "backstabbing".

At least I haven't heard that Latvians would accuse Lithuanians on "backstabbing". Thanks to Lithuanians.


There is not Baltic unity, our current president has mentioned that.
Do you think it's good?


Estonians and the Balts do not have the same common mentality. We think differently.
Little bit differently.

Our mentality, believe or not, is similar!

If you see big differences, explain where they are, please.



Oh really? I can get to Helsinki in an hour, while the trip to Riga takes half a day. I've never been to Vilnius, because of the distance, sitting in a car for a day isn't fun. I think that Stockholm is closer to Tallinn, than Vilnius.
So you really don't have idea about distances. Trip from Riga to Tallinn takes 3-4 hours by car. Trip from Tallinn to Vilnius takes half day.

Distances between different towns inside single country Finland can be much bigger.

Kuopio is further away from Helsinki than Tallinn is from Riga.
Oulu and Helsinki are approximately as far away each from other as Tallinn is from Vilnius.


Lithuanians are historically and culturally closer to Poles than to Estonians.
I would say that Lithuanians are as close to Poles, as they are to Estonians.

You seem to not understand differences between Lithuanians and Poles. F.e. even though both Lithuanians and Poles are counted as Catholics, the importance of Catholicism among them is different. Lithuanians are much less religious than Poles. Lithuanians have preserved long time paganism, and Catholicism never played among Lithuanians such role as it played among Poles. And nowdays, when many people are secular, Lithuanians are more secular than Poles.

You should know that Lithuania was last country in Europe to accept Christianity. Lithuanians accepted christianity only in 14th century. But Poland accepted christianity several centuries earlier.


They had the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and they're both Catholic.
As Praamžius commented, many Lithuanians nearly hate Poles. It tells something about this commonwealth. Also, many Lithuanians consider their king Jogaila, who married Polish princess and thus founded Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, as betrayer.


Latvians also have more Catholics than Lutherans. While Estonians are Lutheran.
Latvians have more Lutherans than Catholics. And Catholicism is somewhat alien to many Latvians, including to me, who comes from Lutheran family, and Lutheran part of Latvia.

I agree that there is difference between Lutherans and Catholics, and I can see differences already in my own country. Latvians from Lutheran areas have different mentality than Latvians from Catholic areas. IMO Latvians from Lutheran areas have closer mentality to Estonians ("coldness, punctuality, individuality" etc.) than to Latvians from Catholic areas ("openess, collectivity, impulsivity" etc.). The person, who isn't from Latvia most likely doesn't know about inner differences in Latvia.

But Latvia, whole state, is mainly built on Lutheran values. Modern Latvian language is based on Middle-Latvian dialect, which is spoken in Lutheran areas. Riga, the capital city, is built on Lutheran area. Mainstream literature, art etc. come from Lutheran areas.


3 Baltic sisters? Is that some kind of term common south there? I haven't heard about this before. It would be "3 Balti õde" in Estonian, I have never heard this term.
It looks like the "3 sisters" is known term even for Danish caricaturist:

http://humoncomics.com/art/party-crasher.jpg



Then stop being jealous.
I am not jealous a one bit, and I read your posts with amusement.



I do not consider myself to be a Balt, as I do not speak a Baltic language nor descend from Indo-Europeans. It isn't related to jealousy.
Don't you speak Baltic-Finnic language?

But as far as I know, term Baltic is not so much linguistical, as geographical.

Don't you live in country at Baltic sea?


Now, if you'd be a Finn, then learning Estonian wouldn't be hard and you could read the book quite soon. But as you're a Balt and speak a completely alien language, you cannot understand a word of Estonian. As we are not related.
Well, I have met several Latvians who live in Estonia. They learned Estonian language quite quickly, like after 1-2 years already spoke fluently.

Estonians too learn Latvian language very well. Estonians speak with noticeable accent almost in every possible language, except in Latvian language (I have heard that even in Finnish language Estonians talk with accent). Estonian pronouncation in Latvian language is nearly perfect, practically indistinguishable. I have met few full-blooded Estonians, who can speak Latvian. I could never tell that they are Estonians, and that home they speak Estonian language. They all could talk in Latvian practically perfectly.

If you compare with Russians, they always have noticeable accent in Latvian language.


I agree that Estonian and Latvian languages are really different. But there seems to be something weird about sounds or pronouncation that Estonians and Latvians can learn to speak each other language without accent?


Without Finnish help, Estonia would still be in a better state than Latvia or Lithuania. You are severely emphasizing "help". What did the Finns do? Give the Estonian government free money? Sending 5 000 000 000 dollars onto the Estonian government bank account every month? No... Our current good economic level is the result of hard work.

Don't you understand simple things? Finland is close to Estonia. So:
- Finnish tourists come in millions to Tallinn each year. It means inflow of cash in the country.
- Finns buy summer cottages and other estates in Estonia. Inflow of cash in the country
- Finns open their factories in Estonia (f.e. in Marimekko clothes you can often read "Made in Estonia")
And so on.

Don't you understand how much money the Finns give to you, how much you get due business? A lot of Estonia's richness is thanks to Finnish money! Of course the Estonians will better shut up about this.


Anyway, Mart Laar the 2 time prime minister has said this many times: "The people have to help themselves, that's what the Estonians did in the 1990's and that's why we are so successful".
Latvian saying is "if you don't help yourself, also God will not help you". Latvian people are among the ones, who will help themselves, rely on themselves etc.

Estonian success owes very much to Finns.


You have a wrong (Latvian?) mentality. Someone has to help you, otherwise you cannot be successful. You have to help yourself to become successful, not someone else. This applies also to ethnicities and countries.
Listen, I wasn't writing from this point of view, you have understood me wrongly. Finns have helped Estonians, whether you like it or not, whether the Finns themselves understand, that they actually helped to Estonians.


You speak a completely different language than me. It stops here. How can I be similar to your, if I cannot understand a single word you are speaking in your native language.
Language doesn't parralel culture or religion. As I mentioned above, the Latvians from Lutheran parts are mentally more similar to Estonians than to Latvians from Catholic parts. Even though Latvians from Lutheran parts can much more understand the speech of Latvians from Catholic parts than Estonian language.


Anyone saying that Finns aren't the most similar people to Estonians, are either trolls, idiots or both. Finns are our historic/cultural/linguistic brothers.
I am sorry, it's you, who is troll. The closest people to Estonians are Latvians from Lutheran parts, not Finns. Latvians are the closest to Estonians in many fields - anthropologically, genetically, culturally (houses, music, food, clothes) etc.

Perhaps I really have to start a thread, where you will have to guess, what is Latvian, what is Estonian and what is Finnish? For that I will post houses, landscapes, clothes etc. And believe me, you will often confuse Latvian stuff with Estonian stuff, while Finnish stuff you will tell apart easily. Perhaps I should make such thread, to prove that it's you, who is troll?

[Matuo]

I have to say that I am really surprised by Karl's posts. I have always believed that Estonians are closest people to Latvians (by Latvians I mean the Lutheran ones). Even closer than Lithuanians. Many other Latvians have this belief too. I have always thought that similarities, be they mental, cultural or anthropolgical, are self-evident, that Estonians are our closest kin. I thought that Estonians think same. Because similarities (err, sameness) are so pronounced, that it is even almost possible to say, that Estonians and Latvians are same people, who just speak different languages. Of course, maybe it's bit exaggerated statement, but Latvians and Estonians are closest people, whatever Karl says here.
Our, Latvian and Estonian, history, is some of most similar on earth. We have been ruled by same rulers, we have gone through same path. Exactly this has made us so similar. But now, eh, I am surprised to read Karl's statement, that Estonia's history, surprise, surprise, is most similar to Finland's, which is completely untrue.
And then, I am surprised to read Karl's knowledge about distances between capital cities of Baltic countries, and time, which takes to get from one to another. Of course, he wrote that travelling takes twice longer time, than in reality. Karl has shown himself as person, who hasn't really been travelling, plus as person, who likes to exaggerate things. I start to question, whether he has even ever visited f.e. town Narva in his own country???

Maybe Karl should save some money for travelling around the Baltic countries, preferably also Poland, and see what kind of similarities-differences there really are?

Karl, check out the pictures. How can you know, that they are taken in Latvia, not in Estonia?

[EWtt]

But you, Estonians, weren't any kind of sweet lambs either. You pretended on Latvian areas too, on Livonian areas, you grabbed away Ruhnu island. Your country, which has 1000+ (!!!) islands couldn't give away to Latvia one, single one, which was inhabited only by ethnic Swedes...The Swedes, according to what I have heard, agreed to join in Latvia.

To be honest, the islanders themselves wanted the island to be part of Sweden. They agreed to become part of Estonia after a speech by an Estonian Swede, the local Swedish inhabitants of the island considered the Swedes elsewhere in Estonia their closest kin. I've once written about this, Estonia made the claim on Ruhnu far before Latvians ever did, even though it might have been "symbolical" and the islanders knew nothing about it themselves.


A lot of Estonia's richness is thanks to Finnish money! Of course the Estonians will better shut up about this.

Where was this Finnish money back when we were ahead of you during our first independence period? Our main trading partners were the UK and Germany! And were there Finns when we were a little bit ahead of you in the Soviet era? "National income per capita was higher in Estonia than elsewhere in the USSR (44% above the Soviet average in 1968)." This sort of current gap between Finland and Estonia is mostly due to the Soviet occupation. And by the way, contemporary Finnish and Scandinavian investment doesn't come out of the blue, Estonians have managed to create conditions that are lucrative to the investors.


A balanced budget, almost non-existent public debt, flat-rate income tax, free trade regime, fully convertible currency backed by currency board and a strong peg to the euro, competitive commercial banking sector, hospitable environment for foreign investment, innovative e-Services and even mobile-based services are all hallmarks of Estonia's free-market-based economy. Estonia also has made excellent progress in regard to structural adjustment. Today, near-ideal conditions for the banking sector exist.

The current account deficit and inflation is lower than in Latvia, the GDP higher than in Latvia and Lithuania, Estonia's public debt is a very low 3.8% of GDP and government reserves are close to 10% of GDP. The difference is exemplified by the fact that in December 2008 Estonia became one of the donor countries to the IMF lead rescue package for Latvia.


Estonians know very well about the Finnish and Swedish/Scandinavian contributions to our economy, but you're overblowing its importance to our political/economic successes as if this solely has been behind it all. I think Latvians (and Lithuanians) should be happy about Estonia having ties with Finland and Scandinavia. Most of the Nordic companies first expanded to Estonia and many then went on to Latvia and Lithuania, after Estonians proved to them that they can do business in the region. One random example is this Viking Lotto that has for years operated in Estonia and the Nordic countries, and now spread onwards to both Latvia and Lithuania. The fact we'd like even closer ties with the Nordic region certainly doesn't mean we think about abandoning co-operation with you.

[Matuo]

Here is world values map, and, surprise, surprise, Estonians stand closer to Latvians and Lithuanians than to Swedes or Finns.

Also, notice, that Lithuanians are placed much closer to Estonians than to Poles in this map.

http://shawblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/world-values-map.gif

It's from here (http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/)

[Äike]

Ungrateful? We have several streets named after Estonian towns in Riga! Tallinas iela, Pērnavas iela, Tērbatas iela, Narvas iela etc.!

Where are Latvian street names in Tallinn, the capital of ungrateful Estonians?

Well it's obvious why Riga has streets named after Estonian places. Because Estonians fought a hard battle and liberated Riga, thus it's logical that many street names were named with Estonian names.



Source please.

And BTW which areas in Latvia you call as "Estonian areas"? Perhaps, Ainaži? (which you proudly have called as "Estonian area"). But it was Livonian area! There were living Livonians, not Estonians. Name "Ainaži" itself is said to be descended from Livonian word "ainagi" ("lonely"). Also town Salacgrīva, which you included in Estonian areas, actually was Livonian area! I have relatives, who come from these areas, they even still have Tamnieku accent in their speech. People there consider themselves as descendants of Livonians, not Estonians. Also, before indenpendent Latvia was created, in Ainaži Latvian man Krisjānis Valdemārs created sea school, where both Estonians and Latvians were studying shipping etc. There was also port, which after 1 world war was destroyed.

Practically saying, after the 1920's, Estonia didn't have areas with a considerable amount of Latvians. But Latvia had vast areas in Northern-Latvia which were Estonian.


I know that some areas in Northern Vidzeme were Estonian (Ape, near Alūksne etc.), which Latvia took away.

But you, Estonians, weren't any kind of sweet lambs either. You pretended on Latvian areas too, on Livonian areas, you grabbed away Ruhnu island. Your country, which has 1000+ (!!!) islands couldn't give away to Latvia one, single one, which was inhabited only by ethnic Swedes...The Swedes, according to what I have heard, agreed to join in Latvia.

Well, you're wrong. I actually know something about history, while you just throw around baseless sentences.

A person from the Estonian government(from the Ministry of the Interior) visited Ruhnu in 1919, in the first days of June. A minority of the people wanted to become a part of Sweden, but later all of them(all the Ruhnu people) agreed with being part of Estonia. After the question was solved, the people of Ruhnu hoisted an Estonian flag on the island.


Hah, you, Karl, previously wrote yourself, that Estonians were liberating Latvia only because it was for own Estonian interests! Not because Estonians were really interested in liberating Latvia! Your own words!!! :rolleyes2:

Well, no wonder that it is easy to suspect Estonians on "backstabbing".

At least I haven't heard that Latvians would accuse Lithuanians on "backstabbing". Thanks to Lithuanians.

Estonian soldiers liberated Latvia and Latvia got Estonian areas into its territory and you're telling me that someone got backstabbed?


Do you think it's good?

I do not think anything about it. It's pure logic.


Little bit differently.

Our mentality, believe or not, is similar!

If you see big differences, explain where they are, please.

No, our mentality is different, as you have shown. You think that someone has to help you, otherwise you won't be successful. Like your naive opinion about Estonia being richer because Finns "helped" us. Estonia being more successful is the result of hard work.

Estonian mentality: "Only I can help myself, thus I have to work hard."

Latvian mentality: "Someone has to help me, or I will never be successful."

I do not know any Latvians, but after reading your posts, I get such an impression.



So you really don't have idea about distances. Trip from Riga to Tallinn takes 3-4 hours by car. Trip from Tallinn to Vilnius takes half day.

Actually, I do have an idea about distances.


Distances between different towns inside single country Finland can be much bigger.

Kuopio is further away from Helsinki than Tallinn is from Riga.
Oulu and Helsinki are approximately as far away each from other as Tallinn is from Vilnius.

So? Distances between Russian towns can be greater than the distance between Paris and Kiev.


I would say that Lithuanians are as close to Poles, as they are to Estonians.

Thus Lithuanians do not share any ties with the Poles? :confused:


You seem to not understand differences between Lithuanians and Poles. F.e. even though both Lithuanians and Poles are counted as Catholics, the importance of Catholicism among them is different. Lithuanians are much less religious than Poles. Lithuanians have preserved long time paganism, and Catholicism never played among Lithuanians such role as it played among Poles. And nowdays, when many people are secular, Lithuanians are more secular than Poles.

You should know that Lithuania was last country in Europe to accept Christianity. Lithuanians accepted christianity only in 14th century. But Poland accepted christianity several centuries earlier.


As Praažius commented, many Lithuanians nearly hate Poles. It tells something about this commonwealth. Also, many Lithuanians consider their king Jogaila, who married Polish princess and thus founded Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, as betrayer.

Lithuania and Poland have a similar history and they lived in the same cultural sphere.


Latvians have more Lutherans than Catholics. And Catholicism is somewhat alien to many Latvians, including to me, who comes from Lutheran family, and Lutheran part of Latvia.

I agree that there is difference between Lutherans and Catholics, and I can see differences already in my own country. Latvians from Lutheran areas have different mentality than Latvians from Catholic areas. IMO Latvians from Lutheran areas have closer mentality to Estonians ("coldness, punctuality, individuality" etc.) than to Latvians from Catholic areas ("openess, collectivity, impulsivity" etc.). The person, who isn't from Latvia most likely doesn't know about inner differences in Latvia.

Latvians are more Catholic than Lutheran, go look it up for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Religion


But Latvia, whole state, is mainly built on Lutheran values. Modern Latvian language is based on Middle-Latvian dialect, which is spoken in Lutheran areas. Riga, the capital city, is built on Lutheran area. Mainstream literature, art etc. come from Lutheran areas.

Lutheran values, yeah right. That's why you have a considerably higher corruption level(but still low, when compared to Eastern-European Slavic countries).


It looks like the "3 sisters" is known term even for Danish caricaturist:

http://humoncomics.com/art/party-crasher.jpg

It is a completely new term to me and I do not see that term mentioned in the picture.


I am not jealous a one bit, and I read your posts with amusement.

lol.


Eesti ei ole parem kui Läti või Leedu, Eesti lihtsalt meigib ennast väljakutsuvalt nagu prostituut! Umbes nii teatas 1997. aastal kibestunult ühe Läti parlamendikomisjoni esimees, kui Eesti sai tol hetkel ainsa Balti riigina kutse liitumisläbirääkimistele Euroopa Liiduga.

Estonia was called a "prostitute, who puts a lot of make-up on her to look better", in the Latvian parliament, in 1997. Because Estonia was asked to join the EU-joining talks in 1997 and the less advanced, Latvia and Lithuania, weren't.

Latvians should just stop waiting for someone else to help them, they have to help themselves.


Don't you speak Baltic-Finnic language?

But as far as I know, term Baltic is not so much linguistical, as geographical.

Don't you live in country at Baltic sea?

Are Finns, Estonians, Ingrians and Karelians, Balts? No.


Well, I have met several Latvians who live in Estonia. They learned Estonian language quite quickly, like after 1-2 years already spoke fluently.

Even a person from Indonesia can learn to speak Estonian fluently, if he/she lives here long enough. I've seen a good example in the form of an exchange student.


Estonians too learn Latvian language very well. Estonians speak with noticeable accent almost in every possible language, except in Latvian language (I have heard that even in Finnish language Estonians talk with accent). Estonian pronouncation in Latvian language is nearly perfect, practically indistinguishable.

lol!


I have met few full-blooded Estonians, who can speak Latvian. I could never tell that they are Estonians, and that home they speak Estonian language. They all could talk in Latvian practically perfectly.

If you compare with Russians, they always have noticeable accent in Latvian language.

If a person lives long enough in a country, then it doesn't matter where he/she is from, he/she will start speaking the local language, fluently.



I agree that Estonian and Latvian languages are really different. But there seems to be something weird about sounds or pronouncation that Estonians and Latvians can learn to speak each other language without accent?

Now you're just making things up.


Don't you understand simple things? Finland is close to Estonia. So:
- Finnish tourists come in millions to Tallinn each year. It means inflow of cash in the country.
- Finns buy summer cottages and other estates in Estonia. Inflow of cash in the country
- Finns open their factories in Estonia (f.e. in Marimekko clothes you can often read "Made in Estonia")
And so on.

Don't you understand how much money the Finns give to you, how much you get due business? A lot of Estonia's richness is thanks to Finnish money! Of course the Estonians will better shut up about this.

That's right, the Finnish government sends 5 000 000 euros a month, to the Estonian government and every Estonian citizen also receives 50 euros a month from the Finnish government. :P

If Estonians wouldn't be hard workers and wouldn't have that Nordic mentality, then foreign investors wouldn't expand into Estonia. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225965&postcount=1)


Latvian saying is "if you don't help yourself, also God will not help you". Latvian people are among the ones, who will help themselves, rely on themselves etc.

Your posts say something else. Your talk like this: "It is not possible that Estonia became so successful without help. They had to receive help from someone! That's why Latvia isn't as advanced as Estonia, because no one is doing the work for us!"


Estonian success owes very much to Finns.

Estonian success owes very much to the reforms made in the 1990's, which were said to be the most successful reforms in the entire ex-Eastern block.

Foreign investors coming to Estonia was just a side-effect.


Listen, I wasn't writing from this point of view, you have understood me wrongly. Finns have helped Estonians, whether you like it or not, whether the Finns themselves understand, that they actually helped to Estonians.

The Estonians helped themselves, there were no Finns who made the reforms for us.


Language doesn't parralel culture or religion. As I mentioned above, the Latvians from Lutheran parts are mentally more similar to Estonians than to Latvians from Catholic parts. Even though Latvians from Lutheran parts can much more understand the speech of Latvians from Catholic parts than Estonian language.


I am sorry, it's you, who is troll. The closest people to Estonians are Latvians from Lutheran parts, not Finns. Latvians are the closest to Estonians in many fields - anthropologically, genetically, culturally (houses, music, food, clothes) etc.

The closest people to Estonians are Finns, period. They're our brothers.


Perhaps I really have to start a thread, where you will have to guess, what is Latvian, what is Estonian and what is Finnish? For that I will post houses, landscapes, clothes etc. And believe me, you will often confuse Latvian stuff with Estonian stuff, while Finnish stuff you will tell apart easily. Perhaps I should make such thread, to prove that it's you, who is troll?

You're the troll, Estonians are not Balts, they are Finnic and the closest people to us are the Finns, who are also Finnic. Anyone claiming otherwise, is either very naive or just trolling.

[Äike]

I have to say that I am really surprised by Karl's posts. I have always believed that Estonians are closest people to Latvians (by Latvians I mean the Lutheran ones). Even closer than Lithuanians. Many other Latvians have this belief too. I have always thought that similarities, be they mental, cultural or anthropolgical, are self-evident, that Estonians are our closest kin. I thought that Estonians think same. Because similarities (err, sameness) are so pronounced, that it is even almost possible to say, that Estonians and Latvians are same people, who just speak different languages. Of course, maybe it's bit exaggerated statement, but Latvians and Estonians are closest people, whatever Karl says here.

The closest people to Estonians are Finns and in my opinion the closest people to Latvians, are the Lithuanians. You may think what you want, but no Estonian considers Latvians to be closer to them than the Finns.


Our, Latvian and Estonian, history, is some of most similar on earth. We have been ruled by same rulers, we have gone through same path. Exactly this has made us so similar. But now, eh, I am surprised to read Karl's statement, that Estonia's history, surprise, surprise, is most similar to Finland's, which is completely untrue.

This is false. For instance, Estonia had a long Danish rule, while the Latvians were never ruled by the Danes. Even the Estonian coat of arms is practically the same as the Danish one. Both have 3 lions. Our capital is called "Taani linn/Danish town" etc. While Latvian has no Danish history. We weren't ruled always by the same rulers. Then Estonia had a longer period of Swedish rule and all of Latvia was never under Swedish rule. Latvia has had more Polish-Lithuanian rule.


And then, I am surprised to read Karl's knowledge about distances between capital cities of Baltic countries, and time, which takes to get from one to another. Of course, he wrote that travelling takes twice longer time, than in reality. Karl has shown himself as person, who hasn't really been travelling, plus as person, who likes to exaggerate things. I start to question, whether he has even ever visited f.e. town Narva in his own country???

I actually do travel to different countries, most often to Finland. Because of the very short distance between the capitals and because I have a considerable amount of Finnish friends.


Maybe Karl should save some money for travelling around the Baltic countries, preferably also Poland, and see what kind of similarities-differences there really are?

If I would ever visit Latvia in the future, then would you make me a personal tour? :wink

[esaima]

Because similarities (err, sameness) are so pronounced, that it is even almost possible to say, that Estonians and Latvians are same people, who just speak different languages.
Yes, one can even say (not being death-serious) that Latvians are those Estonians who speak a dialect of Lithuanian language.

[Raikaswinþs]

I a Love Finland (I don't know much about eesti, but I am aweare that they are their closest relatives) However, as a basketball fan, I can't but help loving Lithuania too

Arlaukas, Karnisovas, Jasikevicius, Sabonis... ahh.. lovely nation of pseudo-greek sounding surnames :P Also beautiful ladies (At least the ones here in UK)

Oh, and they do LOOK (in terms of appearance, phenotype) fairly indistinguishable from poles (at least from the perspective of a non expert)

I only know one latvian girl, lovely lady, who showed me this fantastic video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_qFMHOKp7s

[esaima]

Finns are our historic/cultural/linguistic brothers. etc, etc
Oh, yes, it sounds nice.It sounds even so nice that may easily bullshit foreigners and even some naive Finns.
Sorry my straightforwardness but I may know reality a bit better than average Apricity member:
I think that Karl who expresses similarity with Finns use Finland just as a "trampoline" to jump Estonia among the Nordic countries.

Karl(and other Nordicists like him) is not interested so much in Finns but rather Finland´s brand as a Nordic country.Karl wants to be a Scandinavian(or at least wants to be Scandinavian more than to be a Finnic).Karl doesn´t like neither Finnicness, nor Finno-Ugricness, he is ashamed it a bit.(He may start now his well-known blah-blah about that how distant Erzas and Maris for us are, but anyway).

[Äike]

etc, etc
Oh, yes, it sounds nice.It sounds even so nice that may easily bullshit foreigners and even some naive Finns.
Sorry my straightforwardness but I may know reality a bit better than average Apricity member:
I think that Karl who expresses similarity with Finns use Finland just as a "trampoline" to jump Estonia among the Nordic countries.

You're the only person who's bullshiting the foreigners.


Karl(and other Nordicists like him) is not interested so much in Finns but rather Finland´s brand as a Nordic country.Karl wants to be a Scandinavian(or at least wants to be Scandinavian more than to be a Finnic).Karl doesn´t like neither Finnicness, nor Finno-Ugricness, he is ashamed it a bit.(He may start now his well-known blah-blah about that how distant Erzas and Maris for us are, but anyway).

I'm not a Nordicist and you know it.

If I would love Scandinavians so much as you're saying, then why do I have 30 times more Finnish friends than Swedish/Danish/Norwegian friends?

Finns are closer to Estonians, than Scandinavians.

[safinator]

I don't consider them Nordic but something across East Europe and Scandinavia.

[riverman]

I voted "karl", whatever that means. I don't think the term "nordic" is appropriate as an ethnic description. There is far too much diversity in looks in Scandinavia and for that matter all northern areas.

[Hevneren]

I voted "karl", whatever that means. I don't think the term "nordic" is appropriate as an ethnic description. There is far too much diversity in looks in Scandinavia and for that matter all northern areas.

The term "Nordic" is cultural and geographical, it has nothing to do with phenotypes.

[riverman]

The term "Nordic" is cultural and geographical, it has nothing to do with phenotypes.

Then Estonia isn't nordic.

[The Ripper]

The term "Nordic" is cultural and geographical, it has nothing to do with phenotypes.

But again, that is only one definition, one that is tied to time and space. ;)

Finland was not classified a Nordic country in the 1920's - a fact Karl likes to bring up to strengthen Estonia's claim to the Nordic-label (by some twisted logic). Nowadays, Finland is a Nordic country, and this is largely a post-WW II development.

The key question here is not whether or not Estonia is Nordic, because by some definitions it surely is, but the question is rather: what is meant by "Nordic"?

[Siil]

In my opinion it is simply silly to argue are we a part of some "Nordic club" or not.

Estonians have always poetically referred to their country as "Põhjamaa" (Northland). Geographically we are more northern than many of the North Germanics and I don't think the "northernness" of the cultures and mentality of Baltic Finnics can be doubted.

Considering ethnic, cultural, historical, economic and political common ties and interests, I would say the most important partners for Estonia would be Finland and Latvia, the second circle would involve also Sweden and Lithuania.

We are northlanders as we've always been. Does it make us "Nordic" like a group of North European countries is commonly known or does it not - it's irrelevant.

[Beethoven]

Google says that Estonians is finno-ugoric like Finnish and Hungarians.
Both Estonians and Hungarians are very tall.

Netherlands 181,20 16318199
Iceland 179,00 319355
Hungary 179,00 10106017
Austria 178,20 8174762
Germany 178,10 82424609
Croatia 178,00 4496869
Australia 178,00 19913144
Norway 178,00 4737171
Sweden 178,00 8986400
Czech Republic 178,00 10246178
Serbia 177,80 10159046
Denmark 177,60 5413392
Poland 177,00 38626349
New Zealand 177,00 3993817
Estonia 177,00 1307605
Luxembourg 177,00 486006
Sudan 177,00 40218455
Finland 176,70 5214512
United States 176,20 293027571
Belgium 176,00 10348276
Romania 176,00 22355551
Switzerland 176,00 7450867
Ukraine 175,50 47732079
United Kingdom 175,30 60270708
Greece 175,00 10647529
Ireland 175,00 3969558
Russia 175,00 143782338
Israel 175,00 7112359
Lithuania 175,00 3565205
France 174,90 60424213
Uzbekistan 174,40 26410416
Italy 174,00 58057477
Canada 173,50 32507874
Spain 173,50 40280780
Argentina 173,00 39144753
Turkey 173,00 68893918
Mali 173,00 12324029
Egypt 173,00 76117421
Senegal 173,00 10852147
Uruguay 172,90 3399237
Saudi Arabia 172,60 25795938
Portugal 172,50 10524145
Syria 172,00 18016874
Cuba 171,50 11308764
Iran 171,40 67503205
Tunisia 171,30 9974722
Morocco 171,00 32209101
Algeria 171,00 32129324
Malta 170,50 403532
Côte d'Ivoire 170,10 18373060
Cameroon 170,10 16063678
South Africa 170,00 42718530
South Korea 169,90 48598175
Brazil 169,50 184101109
Colombia 169,50 42310775
Ghana 169,50 23382848
Gambia 169,00 1735464
Paraguay 169,00 6191368
Chile 169,00 15823957
China 167,30 1298847624
Pakistan 167,00 159196336
Japan 167,00 127333002
Taiwan 167,00 22920946
Thailand 166,90 64865523
Hong Kong 166,90 7210505
Mongolia 166,40 2751314
Malaysia 166,00 23522482
Sri Lanka 166,00 20064776
Malawi 166,00 13931831
Bahrain 166,00 718306
Singapore 165,60 4353893
Iraq 165,40 25374691
Nigeria 165,00 138283240
Peru 164,00 27544305
North Korea 164,00 22697553
India 162,20 1065070607
Vietnam 162,10 82689518
Philippines 162,00 86241697
Indonesia 161,50 238452952
Cambodia 160,00 13363421
Mexico 158,00 104959594

Stats between 2006-2008

1) Youth:18-30 years
2) Entire population/adults- All ages over 18 years,18+

[Aunt Hilda]

I think you need the Option "not yet", since the term Nordic is just a political and economic term, nothing more.
I'm sure that in 10 years or so you will be there. Estonia is already an observer of the Nordic council just give It time.

[Artek]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Estonia_cannot_into_Nordic.jpg

[Aunt Hilda]

WUgqXGu_gTQ

[Äike]

I think you need the Option "not yet", since the term Nordic is just a political and economic term

The term Nordic is a cultural term, uniting people from Iceland to Estonia, who celebrate Jul/Jõul, drink glögg during Jul, have a Lutheran background, are now the least religious people in the world, Nordic work ethic etc. It's a cultural term.

[PeacefulCaribbeanDutch]

Ja and Ei

for younger generations I think they are north western european general european culture because they are influenced by internet and tv greatly, they have the scandinavian components, and baltic already, so they really just have this generalized northern european culture, the russian influence is their but fading because the younger people are really westernized

so in a way they are like Danish who are scandinavian / regular euro with a addition of baltic and a fading russian influence that has left its marks but most of that is dissapearing or gone

that being said, i think that baltics have a unique culture of their own which can be called baltic, but this poll does not include that option

[Äike]

Ja and Ei

for younger generations I think they are north western european general european culture because they are influenced by internet and tv greatly, they have the scandinavian components, and baltic already, so they really just have this generalized northern european culture, the russian influence is their but fading because the younger people are really westernized

so in a way they are like Danish scandinavian / regular euro with a slight addition of baltic and tinier russian that is fading away

Estonians watched Western tv already in Soviet times.... I can't see any difference between 1970's and 2000's Estonians. Russians themselves called Estonia "the Soviet West" and Estonians in the Soviet army were called "Germans/Westerners".

and what Baltic component are you talking about? Estonians aren't Baltic. and the only Russian "influence" that I know of, is the food.

[Aunt Hilda]

Estonians watched Western tv already in Soviet times.... I can't see any difference between 1970's and 2000's Estonians. Russians themselves called Estonia "the Soviet West" and Estonians in the Soviet army were called "Germans/Westerners".

and what Baltic component are you talking about? Estonians aren't Baltic. and the only Russian "influence" that I know of, is the food.

and the 20% of estonians who are ethnic russians

[Äike]

and the 20% of estonians who are ethnic russians

they aren't Estonians. Or turks in Germany are Germans? We are talking about recent immigrants here.

Demagogue.

[The Ripper]

Estonians watched Western tv already in Soviet times....

Time for some nostalgia:

8Lh9IDb2_x8

[Ants]

Aah, the Finnish Dream!

[Hochmeister]

they aren't Estonians. Or turks in Germany are Germans? We are talking about recent immigrants here.

Demagogue.

It is so funny to hear. Estonia appeared in 1920's and had existed only 20 years up to 1940. All in all Estonia exists only 40 years (1920-40, 1991-2012), But these lands have been being Russian since 1700's. And Russians are immigrants after all? :picard2:

Is Estonia capable to do without those Russians? Estonian population is too small, and it is decreasing, since everybody moves westward.

Do you prefer Chechens or Mongols on your streets? Russians are also a Finnic people.

[Ants]

Do you prefer Chechens or Mongols on your streets?
Pff, what are you talking about, we ARE the Mongols!

[RussiaPrussia]

if estonia is Scandinavic then russia is too

[Food]

LOL hell no.

[The Ripper]

It is so funny to hear. Estonia appeared in 1920's and had existed only 20 years up to 1940. All in all Estonia exists only 40 years (1920-40, 1991-2012), But these lands have been being Russian since 1700's. And Russians are immigrants after all? :picard2:

The vast majority of Russians in Estonia are recent immigrants, everybody knows this.


Is Estonia capable to do without those Russians? Estonian population is too small, and it is decreasing, since everybody moves westward.

It did quite well, in fact, without Russians.


Do you prefer Chechens or Mongols on your streets? Russians are also a Finnic people.

Wat.

[Rødskjegg]

Not Scandinavian, and not Nordic.

[Hochmeister]

It did quite well, in fact, without Russians.


When?

[The Ripper]

When?

1920-1940. Estonia had a higher living standard than Finland, so way higher than Russia/USSR.

[Hochmeister]

1920-1940.

You are wrong. They used to be among the poorest in Europe.

[billErobreren]

WTF just happened?! :eek:

I take my eyes off the pc for just one minute :tsk:

anyhoo, Karl!!!(the poor bastard. you guys just get off at pissing him off don't you?:lol:)

EDIT:
Oh wait...this thread's a tad old

[The Ripper]

You are wrong. They used to be among the poorest in Europe.

Nowhere near as poor as Russians.

[Hochmeister]

Nowhere near as poor as Russians.

Probably yes, but Soviet Union gave them a good number of profit. For instance the Soviet living standards were at the 21st place according to the UN in 1989 (in our days, the UK has this position).
Moreover the Baltic States, Belarus and Ukraine used to be the elite lands there in the SU.

[The Ripper]

Probably yes, but Soviet Union gave them lots of profit. For instance the Soviet living standards were at the 21st place according the UN in 1989 (in our days, the UK has this position).
Moreover the Baltic States, Belarus and Ukraine used to be the elite lands there in the SU.

Being elite in the USSR meant being sub-par and laughably poor anywhere else in Europe. 50 years of USSR fucked Estonia up, big time.

When Soviet troops arrived in 1940, political comissars had to come up with some pretty skewed excuses in order to explain the fact that Estonians, who were "oppressed by the capitalists" were so wealthy compared to the Soviets, who came from the "paradise of the working class". :D

One I've heard is that Estonian shops have much more produce, because Estonians are so poor they can't afford to empty the shelves like people in USSR. :D :D

[Hochmeister]

Being elite in the USSR meant being sub-par and laughably poor anywhere else in Europe. 50 years of USSR fucked Estonia up, big time.


I repeat:
1. the Soviet quality of life index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index) had the 21st rank worldwide
2. the Estonian quality of life in our days has only the 68th rank.

Soviets created lots of factories and industries in Estonia, therefore work for people and wages, while independent Estonia destroyed all her industry and is bought by Swedish banks. It is independent Estonia who fucked herself up.

Average Russians lived poorer in Russian Empire, while there in the SU they started living better.

[The Ripper]

I repeat:
1. the Soviet quality of life index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index) had the 21st rank worldwide
2. the Estonian quality of life in our days has only the 68th rank.

Soviets created lots of factories and industries in Estonia, therefore work for people and wages, while independent Estonia destroyed all her industry and is bought by Swedish banks. It is independent Estonia who fucked herself up.

Average Russians lived poorer in Russian Empire, while there in the SU they started living better.

Look, you have no argument. Estonian living standards plummeted under Soviet rule. When compared to Finland, who had a lower living standard during the 30's, we can see how much development diverged behind the Iron Curtain. There is no way you can justify Soviet occupation by claiming that Estonia was some kind of failed state in the 20's and 30's, because it clearly was not.

[Hochmeister]

Look, you have no argument. Estonian living standards plummeted under Soviet rule. When compared to Finland, who had a lower living standard during the 30's, we can see how much development diverged behind the Iron Curtain. There is no way you can justify Soviet occupation by claiming that Estonia was some kind of failed state in the 20's and 30's, because it clearly was not.

LOL. All you people keep repeating the same things. I've been on it with Karl and others there in another topic recently.
The Soviets used Finland like a buffer to avoid the iron curtain and keep importing hi-tech technologies, electronics and computers from the West. That's why the Fininish economy has profited a lot of money, it used to be like the modern Belarus and her Europe-Russia transit gas pipeline.

[StonyArabia]

They are Finnic and yes many of them look Nordic, they seem to be culturally very close to Nordic people. They have the same religion and many can pass in Finland and Sweden. They also don't look much like Eastern Europeans like Ukrainians, Russians, and so on.

[The Ripper]

LOL. All you people keep repeating the same things. I've been on it with Karl and others there in another topic recently.

What, like that in 1989, Soviet Union was ranked blah blah blah? :rolleyes:

Estonia was not a failed state that couldn't have survived without Soviet interference, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that. NOTHING.


The Soviets used Finland like a buffer to avoid the iron curtain and keep importing hi-tech technologies, electronics and computers from the West. That's why the Fininish economy has profited a lot of money, it used to be like the modern Belarus and her Europe-Russia transit gas pipeline.

Finland profited from trade with the Soviets, among others. We still sell lots of stuff to Russia, it makes sense since its a large market right next to us.

But yeah, great points. :rolleyes:

[Absinthe]

I vote Karl, of course. :wink

[Aunt Hilda]

just to give you some perspective into the Estonian mentality in comparison to some other countries of the region

estonia
http://www.politicaltest.net/stats/graphic2/x_x_x_EST_x_eng.jpg

lithuania
http://www.politicaltest.net/stats/graphic2/x_x_x_LTU_x_eng.jpg

sweden
http://www.politicaltest.net/stats/graphic2/x_x_x_SWE_x_eng.jpg

russia
http://www.politicaltest.net/stats/graphic2/x_x_x_RUS_x_eng.jpg

[Ants]

Statistics huh? Nice try. And you think that 100 Estonian males, in the age between 18-28, who answered a few questions, will give you an idea of the Estonian mentality?

Looking at the percentages between the different groups under Estonia, the percentages vary considerably.

It only tells me what these few people think vs the rest of the population. Your post is meaningless.

[Aunt Hilda]

Statistics huh? Nice try. And you think that 100 Estonian males, in the age between 18-28, who answered a few questions, will give you an idea of the Estonian mentality?

Looking at the answers between the different groups under Estonia, the answes vary considerably.

It only tells me what these few people think vs the rest of the population. Your post is meaningless.

I clearly said "some perspective", and the table I showed you is the average




Looking at the answers between the different groups under Estonia, the answes vary considerably.
shocking, you mean to tell me that people from different age groups/educational background are prone to have different political views?

[Ants]

I clearly said "some perspective"

It only gives you an idea what a modern internet using young adult male thinks. I'm pretty sure they think quite similarly, whether they are from Sweden, Estonia or Lithuania.

[Aunt Hilda]

It only gives you an idea what a modern internet using young adult male thinks. I'm pretty sure they think quite similarly, whether they are from Sweden, Estonia or Lithuania.

this is self reported I'll give you that, but the statistics include people from different educational backgrounds, gender, age

the latter 2 are quite different from sweden

[Virtuous]

Estonians are Russians in denial.

[Aunt Hilda]

Estonians are Russians in denial.

or both are just eastern euro, when it comes to the mentality of the society that is (lithuania as well)

[Ants]

Estonians are Russians in denial.
Don't be silly my African friend.

[Virtuous]

someone is butthurt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Estonian_SSR_map.svg/250px-Estonian_SSR_map.svg.png

[Accountant]

Estonians are Russians in denial.

Karl isn't here, your trolling is meaningless.

[Virtuous]

Karl isn't here, your trolling is meaningless.

Well, call him goddamit.

[arcticwolf]

Estonians are Russians in denial.

From what I can tell Estonians have no sense of humor, at least the vocal ones on this board. Most Finns are cool and funny on the other hand, though there are exceptions as you can see.

Just watch the reactions. ;)

[Accountant]

Well, call him goddamit.

Can't, there are no phones in Eastern Europe.

[Virtuous]

Can't, there are no phones in Eastern Europe.

ba-dum-tsssss

:bowlol:

[Ants]

Just watch the reactions. ;)

Fuck off you eastern nigger :mad:

[arcticwolf]

Fuck off you eastern nigger :mad:

You ain't got the brains and I ain't got the time. Go fuck yourself! :D

[Ants]

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u180/Kustas/For_SlowRider.gif

[Virtuous]

Okay...okay, lets give the Estonians some credit, I did like this song in Eurovision 2004. 25_z-Li1rq8 :D

[Hochmeister]

Okay...okay, lets give the Estonians some credit, I did like this song in Eurovision 2004. 25_z-Li1rq8 :D

Very North European :D
The girls look like Russian "immigrants", it seems the only dumbass drummer was an Estonian. LOL

[Dacul]

For sure they are.
North russians are also nordisch people as genetics,that is pretty clear if you take their look.
As mentality,I think estonians are rather closed to finns,than to north russians.
EDIT:
Epic thread anyway.
I have talked to some estonians while playing WOW and they were great guys,very modest and friendly.
I liked them even more than south swedes,who were also very friendly.
Sorry to say,but russians there had a weird mentality,they did not even wanted to play on normal realms with other europeans,they wanted special russian realms.
Karl just want to look as a tough unfriendly guy, on this forum,but I am pretty sure he is behaving very nice with russians from Estonia,in reality.

[Hochmeister]

As mentality,I think estonians are rather closed to finns,than to north russians.


What about Petersburgians (St Petersburg), they have a very specific "Baltic" mentality, not compared to the rest of Russia.
And what about Arkhangelsk (North-Western Russia)? Norwegians consider them to be a Norwegian people.

[Aunt Hilda]

What about Petersburgians (St Petersburg), they have a very specific "Baltic" mentality, not compared to the rest of Russia.
And what about Arkhangelsk (North-Western Russia)? Norwegians consider them to be a Norwegian people.

Peterburgians seem to be quite different from Finland 1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678) 2 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/st-petersburg-bans-homosexual-propaganda)


and when it come to Finish and Estonian mentality

finland
http://www.politicaltest.net/stats/graphic2/x_x_x_FIN_x_eng.jpg

estonia
http://www.politicaltest.net/stats/graphic2/x_x_x_EST_x_eng.jpg

[Mans not hot]

I can see Karl's angry while watching this thread, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..

[Hochmeister]

I can see Karl's angry while watching this thread, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..

He is too far away.

http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1301/10/b0ceeafc6c0b.jpg

[Hochmeister]

Peterburgians seem to be quite different from Finland 1 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678) 2 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/12/st-petersburg-bans-homosexual-propaganda)


The political correctness is a quite new phenomenon (30 years?) in Europe, while we are talking about the fundamental cultural strata of meaning.

Please do not tell me that the Brüno movie was an example of the Nordic culture and mentality. :picard2:

[Aunt Hilda]

The political correctness is a quite new phenomenon (30 years?) in Europe, while we are talking about the fundamental cultural strata of meaning.

Please do not tell me that the Brüno movie was an example of the Nordic culture and mentality. :picard2:

we were talking about mentality not culture and yes peterburgians seem to be too dogmatic to fit into the nordic countries.



Please do not tell me that the Brüno movie was an example of the Nordic culture and mentality. :picard2:

you really think Bruno is an example of gay culture in the nordic countries, lol

[The Ripper]

Peterburgians seem to be quite different from Finland

They are.

There are however some pretty ancient connections between N. Russia and the Baltic region, but they precede modern states and nationalities.

[ioan assen]

They are as Nordic and as Scandinavian as the Finns are!

[Jackson]

I would say no. But i don't know much about the history of Estonia.

[Aunt Hilda]

They are as Nordic and as Scandinavian as the Finns are!

Finns ain't Scandinavian, lol troll

[Accountant]

I can see Karl's angry while watching this thread, haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..

You seem to be quite mad about Karl these days. :D


Finns ain't Scandinavian, lol troll

Technically Estonia is just as Scandinavian as Finland because neither of them are Scandinavian. ;)

[Tanel]

No, we are not scandinavian (people should really look up what that word means).
No, we are not Nordic - yet! (come on, we've only had our independence back for some 20 years. Of course we can't yet reach the level of one of the best (if not THE best) wellfare countries. But we'll keep pushing on).
Yes, we are nordic or northern - geographycally, in our mentality and in every other way I can think of. :rolleyes2:

As for people who say that Estonia is too small to survive/do well/excist without great mother Russia and her people... There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or all the tongues of men for how this makes me feel. Is Iceland too small? What about Luxembourg or Cyprus?

I hope a day will come when all Estonian people (estonians and our russians) will live well off and stand testament to that Russias image as a menacing antagonist (ever so kind to help other, smaller nations) is not because of Russian people, but rather because of people of Russia (mostly the ones close to power). And your talk about rankings and how USSR helped to build up Estonias infrastructure (which I belive it actually did) and brought us the glory and privilege to be the "fancy part of USSR" - considering the prize it came with - I'f that's moving up, I'd rather move out. :icon_neutral:

[Mans not hot]

You seem to be quite mad about Karl these days. :D
Mad? No, I'm quite happy actually.

[Aunt Hilda]

No, we are not scandinavian (people should really look up what that word means).
No, we are not Nordic - yet! (come on, we've only had our independence back for some 20 years. Of course we can't yet reach the level of one of the best (if not THE best) wellfare countries. But we'll keep pushing on).
finally someone who makes sense ! :)

[Accountant]

Mad? No, I'm quite happy actually.

Okay, I thought your glory days of trolling were over and that Karl has you by the balls now but I guess I was wrong. :cool:

[Hochmeister]

we were talking about mentality not culture and yes peterburgians seem to be too dogmatic to fit into the nordic countries.


Culture and mentality are very close. Actually a culture is a fruit of mentality. :picard2:


you really think Bruno is an example of gay culture in the nordic countries, lol


The pure gay culture = a part of nordicism for you? :picard2:

[Aunt Hilda]

Culture and mentality are very close. Actually a culture is a fruit of mentality. :picard2:


:picard2: well in that case The Nordics and St Petersburg have a very different culture


]
The pure gay culture = a part of nordicism for you? :picard2:

no but a progressive society is...

[esaima]

Well, some of members seem to think that being Nordic means to achiveve just the same level of welfare as Scandos and Finns today have. Dunno, maybe we´ll achieve the same level in one nice day. After 50 years, 70 years..? At least I am not against it.

But yet, that nordicness is not a question of richness for me but wider question. The thing is that Estonians, neither genetically nor anthropologically simply aren´t nordics. We simply don´t have Scandinavian faces, not genes. To distinguish Estonian from Finn is goddammit- easy! Estonians look like Balts.Although those are linguistically really distant from us. And even more- not a small part of Estonians have even quite Slavic facial traits.
As well although Estonians want to own a status of Scandinavian- coz we dislike the East and Russia- the real everyday life shows that we, in terms of mentality are and act rather like a ordinary east-euros act. Do we have Scandinavian solidarity here? No. Do we have Scandinavian tolerancy here? Do we have Scandinavian feminism here? No. Does our political system/ preferences resemble Finns´ or Scandos´ systeme? Nota at all. And so one. That´ s the life.
Politics and russofobia are one thing, I also dislike Russia´s agressive politics and occupation- but let´s try to describe and look how we really are.

[Ants]

Typical Northern Latvian ^^ :D

[Äike]

Karl isn't here

Exactly and I'll explain why.

I was studying for my history exam focusing on Estonian history from 1561 to 1917.

Contrary to 99% of people discussing stuff about Estonia, I don't pull random made up facts out of my arse. I have studied and study Estonian history in depth, this also includes studying the mentality, culture, customs and so on in different time periods.

Most people who post something about Estonia/disagree with me, maybe have read 2 chapters from Wikipedia or they're literally pulling their posts out of their arse.

The current situation: An Estonian who studies history and focuses specifically on Estonian history arguing with a random Scottish girl who quotes Wikipedia.. that's just hilarious.

*awaiting troll wave from high school dropouts who live in their mother's basement*

[Aunt Hilda]

The current situation: An Estonian who studies history and focuses specifically on Estonian history arguing with a random Scottish girl who quotes Wikipedia.. that's just hilarious.
*

Karl i'm not disagreeing or arguing with you, I'm merely stating that wikipedia disagrees.

what do you want me to link you to jstor(most people don't have access to it anyway)? :picard1:

the best you can say is that right now Estonia is a very important area for the nordic countries, much more important then the balts 1st source (http://www.jstor.org/stable/info/20024912?&Search=yes&searchText=nordic&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoAdvancedResults%3Fhp%3D25% 26la%3D%26wc%3Don%26fc%3Doff%26acc%3Doff%26vf%3Dal l%26bk%3Doff%26pm%3Doff%26jo%3Doff%26ar%3Doff%26re %3Doff%26ms%3Doff%26gw%3Djtx%26q0%3Destonia%2Bnord ic%26f0%3Dall%26c0%3D%26sd%3D%26ed%3D%26pt%3D%26is bn%3D%26si%3D26) 2ndsource (http://www.jstor.org/stable/info/20024920?&Search=yes&searchText=country%3F&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Dis%2 Bestonia%2Ba%2Bnordic%2Bcountry%253F%26Search%3DSe arch%26gw%3Djtx%26prq%3Dis%2Bestonia%2Ba%2Bnordic% 2Bcountry%253E%26hp%3D25%26acc%3Doff%26aori%3Doff% 26wc%3Don%26fc%3Doff)

[Äike]

Karl i'm not disagreeing or arguing with you, I'm merely stating that wikipedia disagrees.

what do you want me to link you to jstor(most people don't have access to it anyway)? :picard1:

Wikipedia doesn't disagree with me. You just take random sentences, without knowing any historical background and make up your own explanations, which are false.

Period.

[Aunt Hilda]

Wikipedia doesn't disagree with me. You just take random sentences, without knowing any historical background and make up your own explanations, which are false.

Period.

Pot Calling the Kettle Black and actually it does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries

[Aunt Hilda]

the best you can say is that right now Estonia is a very important area for the nordic countries, much more important then the balts 1st source (http://www.jstor.org/stable/info/20024912?&Search=yes&searchText=nordic&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoAdvancedResults%3Fhp%3D25% 26la%3D%26wc%3Don%26fc%3Doff%26acc%3Doff%26vf%3Dal l%26bk%3Doff%26pm%3Doff%26jo%3Doff%26ar%3Doff%26re %3Doff%26ms%3Doff%26gw%3Djtx%26q0%3Destonia%2Bnord ic%26f0%3Dall%26c0%3D%26sd%3D%26ed%3D%26pt%3D%26is bn%3D%26si%3D26) 2ndsource (http://www.jstor.org/stable/info/20024920?&Search=yes&searchText=country%3F&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Dis%2 Bestonia%2Ba%2Bnordic%2Bcountry%253F%26Search%3DSe arch%26gw%3Djtx%26prq%3Dis%2Bestonia%2Ba%2Bnordic% 2Bcountry%253E%26hp%3D25%26acc%3Doff%26aori%3Doff% 26wc%3Don%26fc%3Doff)
*
afraid to address this

[Äike]

Pot Calling the Kettle Black and actually it does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries


afraid to address this

another example of hypocrisy and demagoguery.

This topic is about the Estonians (ethnicity, people) not countries. Estonia is called a baltic country, but there are like only 2000 Balts living here. Don't confuse those 2 up, well you do it in purpose so it doesn't matter.

Also you ignored (again) the fact that I told you that you take random sentences and make up (pull out of your arse) their explanations without knowing the historical background.

That's all, you can continue your monologue.

[Aunt Hilda]

another example of hypocrisy and demagoguery.

This topic is about the Estonians (ethnicity, people) not countries. Estonia is called a baltic country, but there are like only 2000 Balts living here. Don't confuse those 2 up, well you do it in purpose so it doesn't matter.

Also you ignored (again) the fact that I told you that you take random sentences and make up (pull out of your arse) their explanations without knowing the historical background.

That's all, you can continue your monologue.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eeGNhmZBQLk/T753OksLlqI/AAAAAAAABPI/g3jjMGpkusw/s1600/jennifer-lawrence.gif

[Tanel]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eeGNhmZBQLk/T753OksLlqI/AAAAAAAABPI/g3jjMGpkusw/s1600/jennifer-lawrence.gif
Giggle giggle giggle :D

[The Ripper]

Karl, can you define "Nordic" in your own words, please.:)

[Pure ja]

Pff, what are you talking about, we ARE the Mongols!

No-no-no.
Estonians are not mongols.
Mongols are like estonians.
Uralic race existed long before the mongoloid race came to be. We are the benchmark here.

[Pure ja]

Estonians are Russians in denial.

You may think so.
We don't think so.

[inactive_member]

Nordic is often considered as an anthropological type. Well, Estonians are not Nordic. Niether linguistically, nor culturally, nor genetically or anthropologically. However, Estonians have a large proportion of people with a fair complexion which in itself does not define Nordic anthropological type.

Finno-Ugrians is a diverse group of people culturally and anthropologically. Some have prominent mongoloid features, others are Europeans. The closest people to Estonians are indigenous people of Pskov and Leningrad oblast many of whom were assimilated by Slavs in the past. Some of those peoples still identify themselves as Finno-Ugrians. These are Veps, Vod', Setu, Ingermanland people. The closest ethnical group to Finns is probably Karelians who are also not Nordic.

Swedes and Finns can differentiate each other without a trouble in most cases. To me Nordic people are Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Dutch and northern Germans living around Danish and Dutch borders.

Denying cultural proximity between Estonian and at least some Latvian population that lives close to Estonian border is false. The two groups of people have lived for more than a millennium side by side. The interaction between them was inevitable. Why some young generation Estonian deny the fact is another question. Probably these people want to be more closer to a nation that is economically more progressive at this point in time. Finns are obviously no foreigners to Estonians either.

[Äike]

Nordic is often considered as an anthropological type. Well, Estonians are not Nordic. Niether linguistically

How do you define linguistically? For instance, the Finns speak a Finnic language.


nor culturally

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/jefferyhodges/Europe_religion_map_en.png


or anthropologically.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map9a.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/denikeren.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/eickrassen.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherraceurnafr.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Lisa]

How do you define linguistically? For instance, the Finns speak a Finnic language.



http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee277/jefferyhodges/Europe_religion_map_en.png



http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map9a.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/denikeren.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/eickrassen.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherraceurnafr.jpg

:rolleyes:

Maybe Kalevala closer to Moldovans than Estonians ? I do not understand - why do you publish these stupid maps?

[Aunt Hilda]

How do you define linguistically? For instance, the Finns speak a Finnic language.






http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe-map9a.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/denikeren.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/eickrassen.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherraceurnafr.jpg

:rolleyes:

:picard1:
XXth century pseudoscience

[Äike]

:picard1:
XXth century pseudoscience

Even if it is a pseudo-science, I am going to correct someone if I am right and he is (hopelessly) wrong.

[American_Hispanist]

I think Estonians are just Baltic people who are very similar and related to Nords, but to Finns the most.

[Aunt Hilda]

I think Estonians are just Baltic people who are very similar and related to Nords, but to Finns the most.

:picard1:
they are not balts

[Äike]

I think Estonians are just Baltic people who are very similar and related to Nords, but to Finns the most.

Estonians are as Baltic as the Canadians are Hispanic... Estonians and Finns both are Finnic.

[American_Hispanist]

Estonians are as Baltic as the Canadians are Hispanic... Estonians and Finns both are Finnic.

xaxaaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxa!! oh really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_countries


The Baltic states (also known as the Baltics, Baltic nations or Baltic countries) are those countries east of the Baltic Sea that gained independence from the Russian Empire in the wake of World War I. Today, this means the countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, but, in the period between the World Wars, it also included Finland.

[Aunt Hilda]

Estonians are as Baltic as the Canadians are american... Estonians and Finns both are Finnic.

fixed.

[American_Hispanist]

:picard1:
they are not balts


The Baltic states (also known as the Baltics, Baltic nations or Baltic countries) are those countries east of the Baltic Sea that gained independence from the Russian Empire in the wake of World War I. Today, this means the countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, but, in the period between the World Wars, it also included Finland.

[Äike]

xaxaaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxa!! oh really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_countries

Yes really. As I said, we are as much Baltic as the Canadians are Hispanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians


Estonians (Estonian: eestlased) are a Finnic people closely related to the Finns and inhabiting, primarily, the country of Estonia. They speak a Finnic language known as Estonian. Although Estonia is traditionally grouped as one of the Baltic countries, Estonians are ethnically and linguistically unrelated to the Baltic peoples of Latvia and Lithuania.

[Aunt Hilda]

xaxaaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxa!! oh really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_countries

balts are part of the baltic language group, estonians are not part of that group

the Baltic states over time included several countries like Finland and Poland,
that does not mean Finns and Poles are baltic

[Äike]

fixed.

Nope. We are purely talking about ethnic terms here, don't "fix" my posts, when you cannot grasp the basics.

[American_Hispanist]

Yes really. As I said, we are as much Baltic as the Canadians are Hispanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians

Now, if they are related to the other Baltic peoples, you can dispute that. However, by all standards, Estonia is still a Baltic country. However, imo, Estonia and Finland should form a political union.

[American_Hispanist]

balts are part of the baltic language group, estonians are not part of that group

the Baltic states over time included several countries like Finland and Poland,
that does not mean Finns and Poles are baltic

Baltics are just a geographic name. If they are similar to the other Baltic people, that can be disputed, as much as how Mexico is different to the other Latin American countries.

[Aunt Hilda]

Now, if they are related to the other Baltic peoples, you can dispute that. However, by all standards, Estonia is still a Baltic country. However, imo, Estonia and Finland should form a political union.
not linguistically they are not balts


However, imo, Estonia and Finland should form a political union.
both are in the EU, besides Finland is not that interested


Nope. We are purely talking about ethnic terms here, don't "fix" my posts, when you cannot grasp the basics.
:picard1:


Baltics are just a geographic name. If they are similar to the other Baltic people, that can be disputed, as much as how Mexico is different to the other Latin American countries.
yet the term Balts is purely linguistic

[Äike]

If they are similar to the other Baltic people, that can be disputed, as much as how Mexico is different to the other Latin American countries.

As I said, Estonians being Baltic is like the Canadians being Hispanic. Comparing the Estonians to the Balts is far from comparing Mexicans to other Hispanics, as you speak the same language (sic!). It's rather like comparing Canada to Mexico.

[American_Hispanist]

not linguistically they are not balts

Of course, Baltic is a geographic name. :picard2:


both are in the EU, besides Finland is not that interested

They are most related to each other. They can workout a political union more easily than even Dutch ppl and Germans.

[Äike]

both are in the EU, besides Finland is not that interested


Finland has always been the bigger supporter of a Finnic union. You don't know much, if anything at all, about the politics or history of Northern-Europe.

[American_Hispanist]

As I said, Estonians being Baltic is like the Canadians being Hispanic. Comparing the Estonians to the Balts is far from comparing Mexicans to other Hispanics, as you speak the same language (sic!). It's rather like comparing Canada to Mexico.

the language, yes, differences because Estonians are more related to Finns. That I agree with you. however, Baltics is a geographic name, and Estonia is part of the Baltics, in geographic sense. That you can't deny. If we are talking about ethnic connections, then that's a whole different story. and no, it would be more like comparing Mexico and Brazil.

[Aunt Hilda]

Finland has always been the bigger supporter of a Finnic union.
did I say otherwise? when It comes to your everyday Finns however....


You don't know much, if anything at all, about the politics or history of Northern-Europe.

:picard2::picard1::picard2:
I know the medieval and contemporary history of your country, there's not a lot of it

I'm studying politics as my minor, I'm familiar with the "scared of Russia" part of europe

[Äike]

the language, yes, differences because Estonians are more related to Finns. That I agree with you. however, Baltics is a geographic name, and Estonia is part of the Baltics, in geographic sense. That you can't deny. If we are talking about ethnic connections, then that's a whole different story. and no, it would be more like comparing Mexico and Brazil.

Mexico and Brazil = Both in the Romance group, related languages/people

Estonians, completely unrelated to the Balts. I know you live in California, but you should understand English.

[American_Hispanist]

Finland has always been the bigger supporter of a Finnic union. You don't know much, if anything at all, about the politics or history of Northern-Europe.

I know a bit, because I am not North Eastern European, but I know more than what the average person does. But still, Estonians and Finns can have an easier political union than what the Dutch and the Germans can have.

[Äike]

did I say otherwise?

Yes, you said "Finland is not interested", while Finland is the only one who has ever been interested in it.


I'm studying politics as my minor, I'm familiar with the "scared of Russia" part of europe

You're not smart enough to finish high school, let alone get into university. Unless the standards in Scotland are considerably lower than they are here.

[Aunt Hilda]

Mexico and Brazil = Both in the Romance group, related languages/people

Estonians, completely unrelated to the Balts. I know you live in California, but you should understand English.

canada is a better example, Tallinn would be like french Canada but instead of french its Russian

[American_Hispanist]

Mexico and Brazil = Both in the Romance group, related languages/people

Canada has bits that speak a Romance language. however, Brazilians have way higher SSA input than Mexicans do, add to the fact that they have received a lot of Italian and German immigrants while Mexico has mostly only received immigrants from Spain, France, and Levantine countries. So therefore, the differences with Brazil and Mexico are higher than with Canada, and Canada has lots of differences with Mexico.


Estonians, completely unrelated to the Balts. I know you live in California, but you should understand English.

Wtf, look at you karl. I have fucking said Baltic is a geographic term, but you keep on skipping that. It's you who should be improving your English.

[Äike]

canada is a better example, Tallinn would be like french Canada but instead of french its Russian

Russians are a minority and live in their ghettos.

[Aunt Hilda]

Yes, you said "Finland is not interested", while Finland is the only one who has ever been interested in it.


I said That interetsed



You're not smart enough to finish high school, let alone get into university. Unless the standards in Scotland are considerably lower than they are here.

:picard1::picard2::picard1::picard2:

said the nordic wannabe, who probably lives in his mums basement.

Like it or not I'm a UOE student

[Äike]

Wtf, look at you karl. I have fucking said Baltic is a geographic term, but you keep on skipping that. It's you who should be improving your English.

The topic is people, not countries. Estonians are Finnic and there are maybe about 1000-1500 Balts in Estonia.

[Äike]

I said That interetsed



:picard1::picard2::picard1::picard2:

said the nordic wannabe, who probably lives in his mums basement.

Like it or not I'm a UOE student

I'm more intelligent, educated and more successful than you. The view from my (I own it, not rented) apartment is worth killing for.

You show your lack of intelligence daily.

[Ibericus]

They are Finnic, don't know if that qualifies

[American_Hispanist]

The topic is people, not countries. Estonians are Finnic

We agree on that. However, I still don't think Estonians are Nords. Very related to Nords, yes, but not Nords. That would be Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, some Finns, and Northern Germans


and there are maybe about 1000-1500 Balts in Estonia.

Sure, ok.

[Aunt Hilda]

I'm more intelligent, educated and more successful than you. The view from my (I own it, not rented) apartment is worth killing for.


and I own Neuschwanstein Castle

Your apartment is in Estonia, no one would kill for that




You show your lack of intelligence daily.

you're an idiot, who cant grasp the most basic concept of contemporary
politics. You are actually delusional enough to think that History and culture is more important than the contemporary situation in a country

[Äike]

and I own Neuschwanstein Castle

Your apartment is in Estonia, no one would kill for that

Many of your compatriots disagree with you. I see the spires of 700-year old churches from my window, you don't have history like that in Scotland or anywhere else in Europe.


you're an idiot, who cant grasp the most basic concept of contemporary
politics. You are actually delusional enough to think that History and culture is more important than the contemporary situation in a country

What's wrong with the contemporary situation here? It's great. We have an extremely high Human Development index and life is safer than in your region, where rapes are common.

[Graham]

Like it or not I'm a UOE student

Top Uni that, currently rated at #21 in the world, for top Universities.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Edinburgh

[SkyBurn]

Well, "Nordic" is pretty arbitrary. Depends upon one's judgement call of how similar Estonia is to Finland as opposed to the other Baltics. I don't think it's as simple as Karl makes it out to be. Also, Karl, personal attacks do not help win arguments.

[Aunt Hilda]

Many of your compatriots disagree with you. I see the spires of 700-year old churches from my window, you don't have history like that in Scotland or anywhere else in Europe.


lol, you think 700-years is impressive? lol



What's wrong with the contemporary situation here? It's great. We have an extremely high Human Development index and life is safer than in your region, where rapes are common.

good for you... :thumb001:

[Äike]

Well, "Nordic" is pretty arbitrary. Depends upon one's judgement call of how similar Estonia is to Finland as opposed to the other Baltics

Estonia to Finland is what Austria is to Germany.



I don't think it's as simple as Karl makes it out to be. Also, Karl, personal attacks do not help win arguments.

You're addressing the wrong person.


lol, you think 700-years is impressive? lol



good for you... :thumb001:

Tallinn has the most preserved old town in Europe, very few European old towns are even near to the level that you can see here.

[Aunt Hilda]

Estonia to Finland is what Austria is to Germany.
Tallinn has the most preserved old town in Europe, very few European old towns are even near to the level that you can see here.

both Germany and Austria are developed countries, Estonia and Finland on the other hand......

very few European old towns are even near to the level that you can see here.

bitch please, Tallinn has nothing on London, or Edinburgh, or St. Andrews, or York, or even Newcastle, the list goes on...

[Äike]

both Germany and Austria are developed countries, Estonia and Finland on the other hand......


bitch please, Tallinn has nothing on London, or Edinburgh, or St. Andrews, or York, or even Newcastle, the list goes on...

Tallinn has the most preserved old town in Northern-Europe and one of the most preserved old towns in Europe and the entire world. Tallinn's old town is a perfect example of medieval Nordic architecture. Tallinn even used to have the highest building in the world, St. Olaf's church (which I can see from my window).

This is not my opinion, this is a fact.

[Aunt Hilda]

Tallinn has the most preserved old town in Northern-Europe and one of the most preserved old towns in Europe and the entire world. Tallinn's old town is a perfect example of medieval Nordic architecture. Tallinn even used to have the highest building in the world, St. Olaf's church (which I can see from my window).

This is not my opinion, this is a fact.

ok

but this


I see the spires of 700-year old churches from my window, you don't have history like that in Scotland or anywhere else in Europe.


is your opinion

[Graham]

Tallinn old town looks nice.

Edinburgh is hard to beat also.

[Äike]

is your opinion

Tallinn's old town being one of a kind in Europe isn't my opinion. Even the historic street network is preserved. There's a reason why Tallinn's old town is in the UNESCO world heritage list.

[Aunt Hilda]

Tallinn's old town being one of a kind in Europe isn't my opinion. Even the historic street network is preserved. There's a reason why Tallinn's old town is in the UNESCO world heritage list.

:picard1:

I was talking about the esthetics of the city

[Äike]

:picard1:

I was talking about the esthetics of the city

I have always been talking about Tallinn's old town being the most preserved old town in Northern-Europe and overall in the entire world, not esthetics.

Esthetically, there are towns in Estonia that I like more... Esthetics is solely personal opinion, while historic architecture is not.

[Graham]

Both Old and New Towns of Edinburgh are World Heritage Sites. :P

[Ants]

bitch please, Tallinn has nothing on London
London is a shit hole, Edinburgh on the other hand is one of the coolest cities I've been to.

[Il Principe]

bitch please, Tallinn has nothing on London]
Tallinn is superior to London in every regard. I have no idea why anyone would hold up a festering blight like London - a cosmopolitan cesspool entirely dedicated to making money, a nauseating racial sewer, a mega-city shithole of late-Roman proportions - as "better" than the old town of Tallinn. It's a stretch to even call it a British city at all.

Edinburgh and York are fine cities with a rich history, though. Brighton is also pleasant enough. (Apart from those cities, and London, I sadly don't have much personal experience with the UK.)

EDIT: And, lest we forget, my answer to this thread is of course "Karl".

[eeroli]

Hear hear.

[The Ripper]

Tallinn has the most preserved old town in Northern-Europe and one of the most preserved old towns in Europe and the entire world. Tallinn's old town is a perfect example of medieval German architecture. Tallinn even used to have the highest building in the world, St. Olaf's church (which I can see from my window).

This is not my opinion, this is a fact.

FIXED.

[Graham]

Not a bad thing of course. Germans have good looking cities and squares.

[Pure ja]

Nordic is often considered as an anthropological type. Well, Estonians are not Nordic. Niether linguistically, nor culturally, nor genetically or anthropologically.


I think Karl wants to stress that Estonians are nordic both anthropologically, linguistically, culturally and genetically. And I agree with him on this.

And maybe we should all use less 'Nordic' and more 'Pohjola / Põhjala'.

And as a further note, didn't north-germanics originally call as Nordic those regions of Scandinavia that were still populated with saamis and other finnic peoples? At that time 'Nordic' was a derogative term among north-germanics. It was only when the north-germanic assimilation reached the actual Nordic, that they took it over and started to trademark it as their own.



The closest ethnical group to Finns is probably Karelians who are also not Nordic.


Karelians are just as 'Pohjola / Põhjala / Nordic' as finns and estonians and saamis.



Denying cultural proximity between Estonian and at least some Latvian population that lives close to Estonian border is false.


Sure.
It is just that that cultural proximity has a name, and it is called 'southern baltic-finnic', NOT 'baltic'.




The two groups of people have lived for more than a millennium side by side. The interaction between them was inevitable. Why some young generation Estonian deny the fact is another question.


Estonians deny interaction with latvians based on a baltic language.
Estonians DON'T deny any interaction with latvians based on a baltic-FINNIC language. That is the whole issue - latvians used to be baltic finnic and speak the same language with estonians, now they speak just baltic. Estonians don't want to follow the fate of latvians.

[Pure ja]

Russians are a minority and live in their ghettos.

That is actually a contradiction.
If russians live in ghettos, then they are not a minority in the ghettos.

I guess some of those sets of buildings could be called as ghettos, but I wouldn't use it to describe everything. There is no clear cut divide between ghettos and non-ghettos in Estonia, it is a continuum.

[Pure ja]

Tallinn has nothing on London, or Edinburgh, or St. Andrews, or York, or even Newcastle, the list goes on...

I don't know about St. Andrews, but I believe you could be wrong about Newcastle (upon Tyne, that is). I was impressed by Edinburgh and York, and London. But it would be a tough choice to choose between all those where to live in. Probably not in London or Newcastle.

[Äike]

FIXED.

No, like really. Tallinn was founded by the Danes, then went under German rule and then under Swedish rule etc. There's a reason why Tallinn's coat of arms is the 3 Danish lions (also the national coat of arms of Estonia) + the Dannebrog being used as the small coat of arms.

Tallinn is the best example of medieval Nordic architecture and Narva was the best (perfect to be precise) of Nordic baroque architecture until WW II.

Haven't you travelled around Northern-Europe at all? For instance, St. Olaf's church in Tallinn, once highest building in the world. Haven't seen something similar in Stockholm for instance?

If you want to know how a Nordic medieval town looked like, then Tallinn is the place to visit. No other old town is this preserved.

Your 2-word troll posts show you in an unintelligent light.

[Pallantides]

Here is native Nordic architecture:
http://www.nationen.no/images/id/698/698873/6988734/jpg/active/980x.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Urnes%2Ca.jpg

The cities became very German/Danish influenced.

[RussiaPrussia]

Tallinn is superior to London in every regard. I have no idea why anyone would hold up a festering blight like London - a cosmopolitan cesspool entirely dedicated to making money, a nauseating racial sewer, a mega-city shithole of late-Roman proportions - as "better" than the old town of Tallinn. It's a stretch to even call it a British city at all.

Edinburgh and York are fine cities with a rich history, though. Brighton is also pleasant enough. (Apart from those cities, and London, I sadly don't have much personal experience with the UK.)

EDIT: And, lest we forget, my answer to this thread is of course "Karl".

funny how you bitch about london yet look at your country in stockholm

[Ianus]

No, they aren't like Scandos

[Äike]

No, they aren't like Scandos

That's because we are Finnic. A person who says that the Estonians are Scandinavian, is retarded.

[SKYNET]

Estonians are nordics. Estonia is a part of Scandinavia. Karl will be a next president of Estonia after long elections.

[Äike]

Estonians are nordics.

Yes.


Estonia is a part of Scandinavia.

No.


Karl will be a next president of Estonia after long elections.

No.

[Aunt Hilda]

Estonians are Nordic.
We have greater affinity to Nordic countries than our southern and eastern neighbours so it makes us Nordic by default.
lol, that's like a stone claiming to be a stag because it's not a flower.

[Aunt Hilda]

I would have downvoted you for that comment. I see you are a mod so I refuse to do so. ;)
it's true though, you're very different from scandos and finns.

[Aunt Hilda]

Genetic tests say otherwise.

I rest my case.
genetic tests say you're balts lol xD

[Pure ja]

genetic tests say you're balts lol xD

Nope.
Genetic tests say that balts used to be southern baltic-finnics.
We were all post-swiderians here in the Baltics.

[Aunt Hilda]

Nope.
Genetic tests say that balts used to be southern baltic-finnics.
We were all post-swiderians here in the Baltics.
so how do you explain the language shift?

[Pure ja]

so how do you explain the language shift?

The Rzucevo culture.
The same way it happened with the Pitted Ware peoples and with livonians and with Fennoswedes.

[Äijä]

The Eesti are almost as Nordics that Finns are, ethnically they are fully, they have a little more rough history but they really are not that different culturally.
Good that they dont copy everything in older Nordic societies, it is not all good.
They have population that is from totally different cultural background, they are not Eesti even if they have the passport.

Lennart Meri was a great man, he is epitome of a Nordic statesman.

[VirilLignac]

They are Balto-Finnic.

[VirilLignac]

Answer mit ze outmost honesty.

Scandinavians: no (they are not North Germanic, but Baltic Finns)
Nordic: yes (they belong to Northern Europe)