Origin of J-PH1751 ?

[GoneWithTheWind]

Discuss.

[GoneWithTheWind]

I said discuss

[Dema]

Levant

[Trojet]

I don't think anyone can answer this for you better than me ;)
TMRCA of J2b2a-PH1751 is about 2800 ybp.
We currently have two branches below PH1751 that split ca. 2800 ybp defined by NGS (BigY etc);
1. "An Albanian branch" defined by Z38298,Z38300
2. "A Greek branch"
See below: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1a1b
YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

So in short according to samples we currently have, the origin of PH1751 (ca 2800 ybp) is either Albania or Greece (the Greek sample could very well be Arvanite).

[GoneWithTheWind]

I don't think anyone can answer this for you better than me ;)
TMRCA of J2b2a-PH1751 is about 2800 ybp.
We currently have two branches below PH1751 that split ca. 2800 ybp:
1. "An Albanian branch" defined by Z38298,Z38300
2. "A Greek branch"
See below: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1a1b

So in short according to samples we currently have, the origin of PH1751 (ca 2800 ybp) is either Albania or Greece (the Greek sample could very well be Arvanite).

Arent most Greeks J2a

[GoneWithTheWind]

Levant

Oi moj levantine

[Trojet]

Arent most Greeks J2a

Well, they are. But they certainly have some J2b2, but it's more common in the (north) mainland and it's almost absent in Greek islands. That's should tell you something...

[Trojet]

Levant

Levant barely has any J2b2a-L283 let alone the more downstream PH1751 subclade...
See here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

[Dema]

Levant barely has any J2b2a-L283 let alone the more downstream PH1751 subclade...
See here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

Yes, i believe you that. J2b2a is mutation how you already pointed out that was born in Albania or Greece if that is true, but however true origins of all J2 are Levantine.
Arent they? I mean if you want to find origins then you have to ask yourself what is upstream of J2b2a, and if you go upstream enough you will reach birthplace aka Levant.

Correct me if i am wrong

[GoneWithTheWind]

Yes, i believe you that. J2b2a is mutation how you already pointed out that was born in Albania or Greece if that is true, but however true origins of all J2 are Levantine.
Arent they? I mean if you want to find origins then you have to ask yourself what is upstream of J2b2a, and if you go upstream enough you will reach birthplace aka Levant.

Correct me if i am wrong

Yeah. Hg J: Its origin is either Caucasus or Levant where it split from I. But j2b l283 subclade seems to be pred. Albanian. A lot of albos here match eachother. I wonder when we split etc and from where. Could be a highlander ting knaw msayin

[Trojet]

Yes, i believe you that. J2b2a is mutation how you already pointed out that was born in Albania or Greece if that is true, but however true origins of all J2 are Levantine.
Arent they? I mean if you want to find origins then you have to ask yourself what is upstream of J2b2a, and if you go upstream enough you will reach birthplace aka Levant.

Correct me if i am wrong

True, but we're talking about PH1751 or J2b2a1a1a.... downstream of J2b2a1-L283: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

The whole "J2" is ca. 28000 years old: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/
My guess is that J2 originated north of the Levant, probably Caucasus.

[GoneWithTheWind]

Also could the proto albanian steppe warriors of been j2b2

[Trojet]

Yeah. Hg J: Its origin is either Caucasus or Levant. But j2b l283 subclade seems to be pred. Albanian. A lot of albos here match eachother. I wobder when we split etc and from where. Could ve a highlander ting knaw msayi

Even L283 is too old (5900 ybp) to know where it originated. It likely did in Western Anatolia.
However the downstream branch J-Z597 does look like originated/expanded out of Balkans ca 4300 ybp: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

[Trojet]

Given the bronze age expansion in the Balkans of J2b2a-Z597,Z628 and and earlier split of J2b2a-L283 found in ancient Bronze Age Armenia (I-E country), I believe it likely came with some "Indo-European group" to the Balkans

[Dema]

Is this the one? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

It says tmrca 1150 ybp

[GoneWithTheWind]

Given the bronze age expansion in the Balkans of J2b2a-Z597,Z628 and and earlier split of J2b2a-L283 found in ancient Bronze Age Armenia (I-E country), I believe it likely came with some "Indo European" group to the Balkans

It could of come with IE. Picked up before they entered Europe. Even E could of. I remember Kurgan had a interesting map about r1b+j2b2 albanians expanding from central europe/lithuania and into balkans

[GoneWithTheWind]

Is this the one? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

It says tmrca 1150 ybp

Yes.

[Trojet]

It could of come with IE. Picked up before they entered Europe. Even E could of. I remember Kurgan had a interesting map about r1b+j2b2 albanians expanding from central europe/lithuania and into balkans

Yes, it's also been absent in Neolithic remains from Anatolia and Balkans to date, so that would suggest it probably came later (Copper Age, Bronze Age?). We need more ancient DNA from Balkans though. We barely have anything

[Skerdilaid]

Is this the one? https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1751/

It says tmrca 1150 ybp

TMRCA between Trojet and the Italian (Arberesh, Palisi).

[GoneWithTheWind]

Bump

[slavoj333]

That's should tell you something...

That it's arvanite, or? Arvanits settled mostly in peloponesus

http://puu.sh/sBO06/d3f0a9c03a.png

Those j2b2s could maybe be assimilated chams or something instead?

[Trojet]

That it's arvanite, or? Arvanits settled mostly in peloponesus

http://puu.sh/sBO06/d3f0a9c03a.png

Those j2b2s could maybe be assimilated chams or something instead?

Yeah, I'm sure some are.

J2b2 in general is quite diverse in the Balkans. But this expansion according to the data we have, seems a Bronze Age one (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/), so I wouldn't necessarily attribute all J2b2 in Grecee as Albanian/Arvanite. I would make such assumptions with Greek samples that cluster with Albanians, whether it's J2b2 or any of our haplogroups.

[catgeorge]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f2.jpg

[ArgentinianAngel]

J2b2 is indo european and PH1751 is Albanian

[Trojet]

J-PH1751 origin most definitely lies somewhere in Northern Albania. Recently an Albanian from Mirditë through BigY tested ancestral for J-PH1751. The TMRCA between Albanian samples is ca. 2400 ybp or 400 BC (Illyrian times). He defines an ancestral clade in J-PH2967, or as YFull calls it J-Y20899:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

http://img.pixady.com/2017/07/490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg

The origin of J-Z1296 itself (4200 ybp) might very well be in the same area (or Western Balkans), since there is Albanians from the area in other J-Z1296 sub-branches, as can be seen here:

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/L283Final.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

J-PH1751 origin most definitely lies somewhere in Northern Albania. Recently an Albanian from Mirditë through BigY tested ancestral for J-PH1751. The TMRCA between Albanian samples is 2400 ybp or 400 BC (Illyrian times). He defines an ancestral clade J-PH2967 or as YFull calls it J-Y20899:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20899/

http://img.pixady.com/2017/07/490619_illyrianalbanian.jpg

The origin of J-Z1296 (4200 ybp) itself might very well be in the same area, as there is Albanians in other sub-branches, as can be seen here:

http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/L283Final.jpg
Damn thats super cool belonging to an ancestral Illyrian clade, that guy probably had an orgasm after learning about this xD yet again so would I