Ashkenazi haplogroups

[Longbowman]

Because I've been bored recently I compiled data on all the people whose data I share with on 23andme. This includes 175 fully Ashkenazi Jews, and 6 half-Ashkenazi Jews who had their parents' data so I could know which half was which, and therefore use their YDNA/MTDNA, and only MTDNA/YDNA which I know comes from 100% Ashkenazi lines. Yes, I know I'm using out-of-date nomenclature for some of the clades. Data below:

YDNA (n=122)



Macroclade
Clade




Number
Percentage


J





44
36.1%



J2




26
21.3%




J2a



21
17.2%





J2a1b1


11
9.0%





J2a1b*


10
8.2%




J2*



3
2.5%




J2b



2
1.6%



J1




18
14.8%




J1e



15
12.3%




J1*



3
2.5%


E1b1b1





32
26.2%



E1b1b1c




17
13.9%




E1b1b1c1



15
12.3%





E1b1b1c1*


9
7.4%





E1b1b1c1a


6
4.9%




E1b1b1c*



2
1.6%



E1b1b1*




8
6.6%



E1b1b1a




7
5.7%




E1b1b1a*



6
4.9%




E1b1b1a2



1
0.8%


R





26
21.3%



R1




22
18.0%




R1a1a



12
9.8%




R1b1b2



10
8.2%





R1b1b2a


8
6.6%






R1b1b2a1a

7
5.7%







R1b1b2a1a1d1
5
4.1%







R1b1b2a1a2f
1
0.8%







R1b1b2a1a*
1
0.8%






R1b1b2a*

1
0.8%





R1b1b2*


2
1.6%



R2




4
3.3%


G





7
5.7%



G2




5
4.1%




G2c



3
2.5%




G2a



2
1.6%



G1




2
1.6%


T





7
5.7%


Q1b





4
3.3%


I2





2
1.6%



I2a2b




1
0.8%



I2b1




1
0.8%



Maternal clades (n=176)



Macroclade
Clade




Frequency
Percentage


UK





80
45.45%


K





68
38.7%



K1a




62
35.2%




K1a1b



43
24.4%





K1a1b1a


42
23.9%





K1a1b*


1
0.6%




K1a9



14
8.0%




K1a*



6
3.4%




K1a7'8



1
0.6%


H





42
23.9%



H1




9
5.1%




H1*



4
2.3%




H1e



4
2.3%




H1o



1
0.6%



H5




8
4.5%




H5a



6
3.4%




H5*



1
0.6%




H5'36



1
0.6%



HV




7
4.0%




HV5



5
2.8%




HV1b2



2
1.1%



H11




5
2.8%




H11*



4
2.3%




H11a



1
0.6%



H7




4
2.3%



H*




3
1.7%



H6a1




3
1.7%




H6a1*



2
1.1%




H6a1b



1
0.6%



H3




2
1.1%



H26




1
0.6%


N1b2





15
8.5%


J1





13
7.4%



J1c




10
5.7%




J1c1



5
2.8%




J1c*



4
2.3%




J1c7a



1
0.6%



J1b1a




3
1.7%


U





12
6.8%



U7




4
2.3%



U3a1




3
1.7%



U5b1




2
1.1%




U5b1b1



1
0.6%




U5b1e



1
0.6%



U1a3




1
0.6%



U4a3




1
0.6%



U6a7




1
0.6%


W





7
4.0%



W3




6
3.4%




W3*



3
1.7%




W3a



3
1.7%



W1




1
0.6%


R0a





5
2.8%



R0a2




4
2.3%



R0a*




1
0.6%


T





4
2.3%



T1




3
1.7%




T1a1



2
1.1%




T1*



1
0.6%



T2b




1
0.6%


I1





3
1.7%


M33c





2
1.1%


V7





2
1.1%



V7*




1
0.6%



V7a




1
0.6%


X2b





1
0.6%

[LoLeL]

R2 is surprising for me.

[Hadouken]

that doesnt mean that you are necessarily askhenazi if you have on of those haplogroups . I dont think you claimed this but just wanted to say it because my haplogroup is listed there too lel

[Longbowman]

that doesnt mean that you are necessarily askhenazi if you have on of those haplogroups . I dont think you claimed this but just wanted to say it because my haplogroup is listed there too lel

Yeah of course not that would be absurd. All of these haplogroups are shared by other groups including other Jews, other Levantines and some others too (particularly those European-style R-clades).

[LoLeL]

Do Jews have a "cultural assimilation" system similar to other ethnic groups (Hebraization or whatever)? e.g. can a non-Jewish man become Jew and Jewish community accept him?

[Longbowman]

Do Jews have a "cultural assimilation" system similar to other ethnic groups (Hebraization or whatever)? e.g. can a non-Jewish man become Jew and Jewish community accept him?

Yes, it's called conversion and it usually takes 4 to 5 years of intense study.

[LoLeL]

I thought that conversion is only possible when a Jew (man/woman) marry a non-Jew.

[Longbowman]

I thought that conversion is only possible when a Jew (man/woman) marry a non-Jew.

No, it's always a possibility.

[Rethel]

It is surely fine amusement, but
nothing senseable comes from it.

Lo,
where is your mt coming from and
where are highest concentrations
now, and what is the shortest age
distance from others?

[Longbowman]

It is surely fine amusement, but
nothing senseable comes from it.

Lo,
where is your mt coming from and
where are highest concentrations
now, and what is the shortest age
distance from others?

personally, my mtdna comes from India in the 19th century, before that, most likely Iraq. Highest concentrations are amongst the Ashkenazi though. Shortest age distance from what?

[Rethel]

Genealogocaly from India or genetically?


Shortest age distance from what?

Your subclade from other subclades?

This: K1a1b1a - and every letter in it :)

[Longbowman]

Genealogocaly from India or genetically?



Your subclade from other subclades?

This: K1a1b1a - and every letter in it :)

Genealogically. Genetically my maternal line is Mustarabi Jewish.

K1a1b1a - ~4,500ya
K1a1b1 - ~13,000ya
K1a1b - ~16,000ya
K1a1 - ~17,000ya
K1a - ~18,500ya
K1 - ~22,000ya
K (U8b2) - ~27,000ya

[Rethel]

K1a1b1a - ~4,500ya
K1a1b1 - ~13,000ya
K1a1b - ~16,000ya
K1a1 - ~17,000ya
K1a - ~18,500ya
K1 - ~22,000ya
K (U8b2) - ~27,000ya

And they are only among Jews, especially the two yougest subdivisions?

[Rethel]

I read on wikipedia about your clade, and I see, that
my usual opinion of this sphere of genetic is relevant :)


You are a "relative" of Ötzi :D

And funny thing is, that not only 10% Europeans is K,
but also 20% of polish Jews is in your particular clade,
which is also common among Gypsies, what suggests
that some Jews converted to... gypsism :laugh:

[Longbowman]

Maternal clades (n=176)



Macroclade
Clade




Frequency
Percentage


UK





80
45.45%


K





68
38.7%



K1a




62
35.2%




K1a1b



43
24.4%





K1a1b1a


42
23.9%





K1a1b*


1
0.6%




K1a9



14
8.0%




K1a*



6
3.4%




K1a7'8



1
0.6%


H





42
23.9%



H1




9
5.1%




H1*



4
2.3%




H1e



4
2.3%




H1o



1
0.6%



H5




8
4.5%




H5a



6
3.4%




H5*



1
0.6%




H5'36



1
0.6%



HV




7
4.0%




HV5



5
2.8%




HV1b2



2
1.1%



H11




5
2.8%




H11*



4
2.3%




H11a



1
0.6%



H7




4
2.3%



H*




3
1.7%



H6a1




3
1.7%




H6a1*



2
1.1%




H6a1b



1
0.6%



H3




2
1.1%



H26




1
0.6%


N1b2





15
8.5%


J1





13
7.4%



J1c




10
5.7%




J1c1



5
2.8%




J1c*



4
2.3%




J1c7a



1
0.6%



J1b1a




3
1.7%


U





12
6.8%



U7




4
2.3%



U3a1




3
1.7%



U5b1




2
1.1%




U5b1b1



1
0.6%




U5b1e



1
0.6%



U1a3




1
0.6%



U4a3




1
0.6%



U6a7




1
0.6%


W





7
4.0%



W3




6
3.4%




W3*



3
1.7%




W3a



3
1.7%



W1




1
0.6%


R0a





5
2.8%



R0a2




4
2.3%



R0a*




1
0.6%


T





4
2.3%



T1




3
1.7%




T1a1



2
1.1%




T1*



1
0.6%



T2b




1
0.6%


I1





3
1.7%


M33c





2
1.1%


V7





2
1.1%



V7*




1
0.6%



V7a




1
0.6%


X2b





1
0.6%

[Longbowman]

And they are only among Jews, especially the two yougest subdivisions?

K1a1b1a is by far most common amongst Ashkenazi Jews, though it also exists in Sephardic and Mizrakhi Jews, like me, and a few non-Jews. The other clades have some representation amongst Jews, especially K1a, but are not unique to Jews or close to it.

[Longbowman]

I read on wikipedia about your clade, and I see, that
my usual opinion of this sphere of genetic is relevant :)


You are a "relative" of Ötzi :D

And funny thing is, that not only 10% Europeans is K,
but also 20% of polish Jews is in your particular clade,
which is also common among Gypsies, what suggests
that some Jews converted to... gypsism :laugh:

Very possible, I suspect K1a1b1a was originally a Jewish clade, so non-Jews with it probably have distant Jewish ancestry. Costa would disagree with me though.

[Rethel]

Maternal clades (n=176)



European goyesses stronk! :thumb001:

Who is costa?

[Longbowman]

European goyesses stronk! :thumb001:

Who is costa?

Someone who produced a very superficial study suggesting most Ashkenazi MTDNA is European - ie, the person who came up with 'European Goyesses stronk.'

[Rethel]

Someone who produced a very superficial study suggesting most Ashkenazi MTDNA is European - ie, the person who came up with 'European Goyesses stronk.'

So you no longer belive in it? You used to...

But they had to in some way absorbed so much whiteness,
that there are so many blondes and redheads, and light
brunets, and that they pass autosomaly into Italy.

White wifes are very good explanation.

Another would have to be - many converts, male converts, or bastards.

[Longbowman]

So you no longer belive in it? You used to...

But they had to in some way absorbed so much whiteness,
that there are so many blondes and redheads, and light
brunets, and that they pass autosomaly into Italy.

White wifes are very good explanation.

Another would have to be - many converts, male converts, or bastards.

His conclusions were approximately correct, his methodology was amateurish.

[Rethel]

His conclusions were approximately correct, his methodology was amateurish.

Conclusions are important.
If you drive a nail with a stone, insteed with hammer,
the important thing is, that he is drived, not, with what.

[Myanthropologies]

Yes, it's called conversion and it usually takes 4 to 5 years of intense study.

Yeah my ex girlfriend wanted me to convert to Judaism. I looked into the religion and liked a lot of it, and a lot of Jewish people I talked to seemed happy to convert me, but the process was long and I had to go to college lol.

[Pahli]

I'm a J1 jew

[Rethel]

Yeah my ex girlfriend wanted me to convert to Judaism. I looked into the religion and liked a lot of it, and a lot of Jewish people I talked to seemed happy to convert me, but the process was long and I had to go to college lol.

Why did you not tell her, that she must convert! :picard2:

[Rethel]

''Ivanhoe'' cluster.

:rolleyes:

[Sacrificed Ram]

R2 is surprising for me.

I remember a R2 iranian jew in internet foruns.

[Kamal900]

I'm a J1 jew

More like J1 Sumerian or native Mesopotamian farmer who got Iranianized by the Iranic tribes in the first millennium BCE.

[Pahli]

More like J1 Sumerian or native Mesopotamian farmer who got Iranianized by the Iranic tribes in the first millennium BCE.

I'm from the other side of the Zagros mountain, dunno what lived there tho, would be cool if I was Sumerian :laugh:

[Rethel]

More like J1 Sumerian or native Mesopotamian farmer who got Iranianized by the Iranic tribes in the first millennium BCE.

As I said him once: Eastern Iraq :)

[Longbowman]

Conclusions are important.
If you drive a nail with a stone, insteed with hammer,
the important thing is, that he is drived, not, with what.

Well he wasn't entirely correct. For instance M33c may be of Asian origin but it was present in Syria

U3, K1a, N1b, X2, R0a, T1a, T2b, W1, H, H5, J1 and J1c are all known from the ancient Middle East.

Of course, X2, T1a, T2b, J1c, K1a, H, H1, HV, even U3 etc. are also known from Europe.

He claimed all of the Ashkenazi clades were European, it is likely that not all were. Certainly the U5, U4 and V groups are European in origin though. K1a1b is most likely European (known from ancient finds in Spain 6,000 years ago, at least four separate individuals), N1b2 is most likely Middle Eastern, etc.

[Pahli]

As I said him once: Eastern Iraq :)

Does not fit with ancient regions Polak, there was no Iraq back then, Iraq stops stops at the foot of the Zagros mountains.

[Longbowman]

R1b1b2a1a1d1= R1b-L47 which is a subclade of R1b-L48. I am convinced these Ashkenazi guys are part of the ''Ivanhoe'' cluster.

A handful of clades are obvious recent-ish converts, yes. All the people who were positive for R1b L47 had different surnames, too.

On the other hand, most of the E3b and J seems to be Near Eastern.

[LoLeL]

I remember a R2 iranian jew in internet foruns.

Seems it exists among Indian Jews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews) I guess J* is the dominant haplogroup among Iranian/Persian Jews. Wrong?

[Rethel]

Does not fit with ancient regions Polak, there was no Iraq back then.

I know, but it is J1-occupational-name.
If you prefer be a Serf of Medes, nameless subject of Aryans - be my guest :)

I wanted the best for you, and you are angry. Senseless.

[Rethel]

Well he wasn't entirely correct. For instance M33c may be of Asian origin but it was present in Syria

U3, K1a, N1b, X2, R0a, T1a, T2b, W1, H, H5, J1 and J1c are all known from the ancient Middle East.

Of course, X2, T1a, T2b, J1c, K1a, H, H1, HV, even U3 etc. are also known from Europe.

He claimed all of the Ashkenazi clades were European, it is likely that not all were. Certainly the U5, U4 and V groups are European in origin though. K1a1b is most likely European (known from ancient finds in Spain 6,000 years ago, at least four separate individuals), N1b2 is most likely Middle Eastern, etc.

So, if not 100%, then how much
is probable in average and how
much at maximum?

[Pahli]

I know, but it is J1-occupational-name.
If you prefer be a Serf of Medes, nameless subject of Aryans - be my guest :)

I wanted the best for you, and you are angry. Senseless.

I am not angry tho and I probably look more Iranic than Iranians that have R1a, Y-DNA doesn't mean that much anyway :laugh:

And I'm assimilated kek, praise muh Iranism :laugh:

[Rethel]

All the people who were positive for R1b L47 had different surnames, too.

Do surnames suggest, that they (surnames) have pre- or post- convertic origin?

[Rethel]

I am not angry tho and I probably look more Iranic than Iranians that have R1a, Y-DNA doesn't mean that much anyway :laugh:

And I'm assimilated kek, praise muh Iranism :laugh:

Better for us, but you will never be IE. Only a commerade :p

[Pahli]

Better for us, but you will never be IE. Only a commerade :p

Pfft, then R.I.P Balkans and Baltics :laugh:

[Longbowman]

So, if not 100%, then how much
is probable in average and how
much at maximum?

Costa said something like '60% for sure, 80% probably.'

It's impossible to say. For example, H, W, V are all typically European - but have been found in ancient Jewish graves from the second Temple. Some clades like R0a, N1b, M33 and U7 are clearly Middle Eastern, too.

I reckon it's closer to 60%.

[Longbowman]

Do surnames suggest, that they (surnames) have pre- or post- convertic origin?

Of course they are not recent converts, their surnames are typically Jewish.

[Rethel]

Pfft, then R.I.P Balkans and Baltics :laugh:

But we like our commerades, as far, as they
do not try to prttend that they are true us.

[Rethel]

I reckon it's closer to 60%.

Was ever made any racial reaserch about hair and skin colours among Jews, european especially?

[Longbowman]

Was ever made any racial reaserch about hair and skin colours among Jews, european especially?

Yes.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5946-eye#anchor7
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7061-hair#anchor7

from 1906. Good data.

[Lucas]

For Rethel. Too big too translate.
Czortkower (Jewish anthropologist), 1926
http://i63.tinypic.com/2eauexy.jpg

[Rethel]

Yes.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5946-eye#anchor7
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7061-hair#anchor7

from 1906. Good data.

So, from this it has to be, that european admixture
had to be much more than 50% - regardless sex.

~30-40% light eyes and at least the same of hair
(I added brownish colours which are not mention)
suggest, that admixture was huge, if light colors
have such high level. Look at India, Persia, Iraq
and other dark countries were IE light admixture
was on the level 1/4-1/3 - the light colours are
almost gone, and that they were lightly coloured
is known from historical and archeological record,
now also from genetic research began to appier
so also. So if it would be 80% of women, plus
some male converts, then it would be probable.

[Lucas]

Read before^^ which I posted

[Longbowman]

So, from this it has to be, that european admixture
had to be much more than 50% - regardless sex.

~30-40% light eyes and at least the same of hair
(I added brownish colours which are not mention)
suggest, that admixture was huge, if light colors
have such high level. Look at India, Persia, Iraq
and other dark countries were IE light admixture
was on the level 1/4-1/3 - the light colours are
almost gone, and that they were lightly coloured
is known from historical and archeological record,
now also from genetic research began to appier
so also. So if it would be 80% of women, plus
some male converts, then it would be probable.

Your logic isn't based on anything factual, many Syrians and Levantines have light eyes and/or hair.

[Rethel]

For Rethel. Too big too translate.
Czortkower (Jewish anthropologist), 1926

The most important thought from this is, that % of light
Jews is similar to the % of light types among local people.

[Rethel]

Your logic isn't based on anything factual, many Syrians and Levantines have light eyes and/or hair.

For example 1/4 of Syrians are R1.
% of light types - much, much lower.
Blondes in Syria are known from ancient records.
Plus Hettite, Greek, Scythian, Roman and even Slavic colonization.

The same with Iranians - originally were in majority light.
Toaday, it is hardly to find a blonde among them.

[Longbowman]

The most important thought from this is, that % of light
Jews is similar to the % of light types among local people.

Sephardic Jews have almost equivalently high incidents of light eyes, it isn't to do with local admixture.

[Rethel]

Sephardic Jews have almost equivalently high incidents of light eyes, it isn't to do with local admixture.

The more, it isn;t to do with original Israelites :)

[Sacrificed Ram]

Seems it exists among Indian Jews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews) I guess J* is the dominant haplogroup among Iranian/Persian Jews. Wrong?

Probable persian jew community interacted with indian jew community, despite R2 also occurs among kurds.

[Longbowman]

Entered the number of R1b1b2a1a1d1 incorrectly (it's 5, I put 2), table adjusted accordingly.

[Charles Bronson]

I thought the haplogroup "Q" has a frequency of 5-7%.

[Jana]

Interestingly there exist Jewish specific sub-cluster within I2 dinaric north branch (in pink):https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8HC1MhoJTns/V7slh2IcUVI/AAAAAAAACWA/SPK4pT0oQwoulb_46TKY0H4LjQQpO5SEQCLcB/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2016-08-22%2Bat%2B9.15.58%2BAM.png

That's quite interesting :)

[Peterski]

You can add these samples as well: http://jewishdna.net

[Longbowman]

I thought the haplogroup "Q" has a frequency of 5-7%.

Some studies give it 5% but I think that's a high estimate.

[Longbowman]

You can add these samples as well: http://jewishdna.net

I do not have specific DNA proof that all these lines come from ~100% Ashkenazi backgrounds, otherwise I'd have already added many lines ;)

but anyhow these don't show frequency.

[Charles Bronson]

Some studies give it 5% but I think that's a high estimate.


Did you want the rare hp from the Khazar-Kings to become a noble-man?

[Longbowman]

Did you want the rare hp from the Khazar-Kings to become a noble-man?

No I am happy with my AUTOCHTONOUS Israelite (inb4 Rethel) peasant DNA.

[Peterski]

but anyhow these don't show frequency.

Here you go:

Sample size - 2219

Haplogroup J2:

J2b (M102) - 29 (1.31%)
J2a1 (L26) - 436 (19.65%), including:

- J2a1b1a (L556) - 171
- other J2a1b1 (M92) - 22
- J2a1b3 (L210) - 89
- other J2a1b (Z6046) - 40
- J2a1h2a1 (L70) - 50
- J2a1h2b (L243) - 17
- other J2a1h2 (L25) - 47

Haplogroup J1:

J1a (Z2215) - 396 (17.85%), including:

- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4b1 (ZS227) - 161
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a6 (YSC76) - 61
- J1a1b1b1a2a1a1a4a1 (FGC11) - 9
- J1a2b3a1 (L816) - 78
- J1a2b2b1b7 (Z640) - 24
- other J1a2b2 (Z18297) - 53
- J1a1b1a1 (PF7263) - 10

Haplogroup E1:

E1a1 (M44) - 15 (0.68%)
E1b1b1 (M35) - 369 (16.63%), including:

- E1b1b1b2a1a4d2 (Y6923) - 125
- other E1b1b1b2a1a (M84) - 105
- other E1b1b1b2 (Z830) - 72
- E1b1b1b1a (M81) - 7
- E1b1b1a1b2 (V22) - 32
- E1b1b1a1b1a (V13) - 14
- E1b1b1a1a1 (V12) - 14

Haplogroup G:

G2b1 (M377) - 170 (7.66%)
G2a2b2a1 (L140) - 36 (1.62%)
other G2a (P15) - 18 (0.81%)
G1 (M342) - 31 (1.4%)

Haplogroup T1:

T1a1a1b2b2b1a (P77) - 19 (0.86%)
other T1a1a (L208) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup L1:

L1b (M317) - 4 (0.18%)

Haplogroup R1:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%)
R1a1a1b2a2a (Z2123) - 8 (0.36%)
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (L1029) - 11 (0.5%)
R1b1c (V88) - 22 (0.99%)
R1b1a1a* (PF4354) - 6 (0.27%)
R1b1a1a2b (PF7558) - 37 (1.67%)
R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%)
R1b1a1a2a1 (L51) - 134 (6.04%)

Haplogroup R2:

R2a2 (F1092) - 21 (0.95%)
other R2a (M124) - 3 (0.14%)

Haplogroup Q:

Q1b1a1a1a (Y2200) - 144 (6.49%)

Haplogroup I2:

I2a1 (P37) - 24 (1.08%)
I2a2 (P78) - 12 (0.54%)
I2c (P215) - 20 (0.9%)

Haplogroup I1:

I1a2a1a (Z140) - 4 (0.18%)

[Longbowman]

Not too many differences except higher Q1b and lower T but adding different data together doesn't create better data.

[Rethel]

Here you go:

Sample size - 2219

But it is from what?


Haplogroup R1:

R1a1a1b2a2b1a1 (CTS6 / M582) - 192 (8.65%)
R1a1a1b2a2a (Z2123) - 8 (0.36%)
R1a1a1b1a1b1 (L1029) - 11 (0.5%)
R1b1c (V88) - 22 (0.99%)
R1b1a1a* (PF4354) - 6 (0.27%)
R1b1a1a2b (PF7558) - 37 (1.67%)
R1b1a1a2a2 (Z2103) - 38 (1.71%)
R1b1a1a2a1 (L51) - 134 (6.04%)

Haplogroup R2:

R2a2 (F1092) - 21 (0.95%)
other R2a (M124) - 3 (0.14%)

1/5. :thumb001:

[Hadouken]

Longbowman I just checked again . you and me we have exactly the same haplogroup :lol:

[Rethel]

Longbowman I just checked again . you and me we have exactly the same haplogroup :lol:

So, you are a Jew, or he is an Arab? :laugh:

[Hadouken]

So, you are a Jew, or he is an Arab? :laugh:

I am a Kurd . not a Jew nor an Arab (he is not Arab either)

there you go ...

[Rethel]

I am a Kurd . not a Jew nor an Arab (he is not Arab either)

So maybe you are a slave from the lost tribes of Israel :laugh:

[Hadouken]

So maybe you are a slave from the lost tribes of Israel :laugh:

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=57143493

[Rethel]

They were resettled there, so, who knows... it is very probable :p

[Longbowman]

Longbowman I just checked again . you and me we have exactly the same haplogroup :lol:

E1b1b1b2a1a?

[Hadouken]

E1b1b1b2a1a?

E1b1b1c1a

[Myth]

Interesting, would have thought more would be j1e

[Costas]

Huh! That's funny I'm a J2

[Peterski]

Is this result typical for 100% Ashkenazim or rather with some Non-Jewish admixture (10-25%?):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196056-Various-German-and-neighbouring-GEDmatch-results&p=4093786#post4093786

[Longbowman]

Is this result typical for 100% Ashkenazim or rather with some Non-Jewish admixture (10-25%?):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?196056-Various-German-and-neighbouring-GEDmatch-results&p=4093786#post4093786

Looks mostly Jewish to me.

[Peterski]

Looks mostly Jewish to me.

Whoa! In "one-to-many" comparison, when using this kit, I'm getting a lot of Jewish 5th cousins (or other distant relatives) of this guy! Then I can use their kit numbers to find even more Jews! It's like a chain reaction. "One Jew to rule them all, One Jew to find them, One Jew to bring them all and in GEDmatch bind them"! Bwahahaha!

[Peterski]

Interesting thread by Maciamo:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33619-Age-and-TMRCA-of-Jewish-lineages-by-haplogroup


Jewish people have a greater diversity of top-level haplogroups than almost any other ethnic/national group in Europe and the Middle East. However this diversity is illusive as for each haplogroup only some deep and very specific subclades are present among paternal Jewish lineages. The European Jewish population (Ashkenazi and Sephardi) underwent a major bottleneck during the Early Middle Ages. The purpose of this thread is to estimate when this bottleneck occurred based on the age estimates and time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for each specifically Jewish deep clade.

E-Y14891 : formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

E-Y6923 : formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp

G2b1b-Y12975 (aka FGC32402) : formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

J1-ZS227 (aka Y3081) : formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp (Yfull) / 2270-3540 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)
- J1-Z18271 (Y-chromosomal Aron) : formed 2750 ybp / 2625 ybp (Iain McDonald)

J1-L816 : formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull) / 1000-1520 ybp (Iain McDonald & Marko T. Heinilä)

J1-L823 : formed 1430-1570 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)

J2-Y15223 : formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L254 : ?

J2-L556 : formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L590 : ?

Q1b-Y2200 : formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp (Yfull)

R1a-Y2619 (aka Y2630) : formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp (Yfull)

R1b-FGC20980 (under V88) : formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1050 ybp

R1b-L4 (under U152>Z56) : ?

Based on these estimates, it appears that the bottleneck took place between 1100 and 1500 years ago (i.e. between 500 and 900 CE). The only lineage that did not experience this bottleneck, perhaps because it is the only lineage in common with non-European Jews, is the Cohanim J1-ZS227.

Based on the age of those haplogroups, it looks like the original Jewish/Semitic lineages were E-M34, G2b1b, J1-P58, J2a1-M67 and J2a1-PF4888. There might have been some T1a, but I couldn't find what lineage was specifically Jewish. R1a-Z93, R1b-V88 and Q1b would have integrated Jewish/Israelite society during the Bronze Age. It is completely expected of R1a-Z93 and Q1b, which came with the Indo-Iranian invasions, but R1b-V88 has been in the Levant since the Early Neolithic. I don't understand why the Jewish clade shouldn't have an older age of formation than 3600 ybp.

[Longbowman]

Based on the age of those haplogroups, it looks like the original Jewish/Semitic lineages were E-M34, G2b1b, J1-P58, J2a1-M67 and J2a1-PF4888.

Legit.

[Rethel]

Interesting thread by Maciamo:

It is nothing new.
We have here a thread or two about it before the crush.

What is interesting, it is the fact, that whole Jews are
descendands of verbaly couple of guys from medieval
times, and are not reprezentative for Israelites. Exept
J1, but even here it is quite narrow "representation".

[Longbowman]

It is nothing new.
We have here a thread or two about it before the crush.

What is interesting, it is the fact, that whole Jews are
descendands of verbaly couple of guys from medieval
times, and are not reprezentative for Israelites. Exept
J1, but even here it is quite narrow "representation".

None of this is even close to accurate.

[Rethel]

None of this is even close to accurate.

Of course never is, becasue be cannot according to you. :)

E-Y14891 : formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

E-Y6923 : formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp

G2b1b-Y12975 (aka FGC32402) : formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

J1-ZS227 (aka Y3081) : formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp (Yfull) / 2270-3540 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)
- J1-Z18271 (Y-chromosomal Aron) : formed 2750 ybp / 2625 ybp (Iain McDonald)

J1-L816 : formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull) / 1000-1520 ybp (Iain McDonald & Marko T. Heinilä)

J1-L823 : formed 1430-1570 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)

J2-Y15223 : formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L254 : ?

J2-L556 : formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L590 : ?

Q1b-Y2200 : formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp (Yfull)

R1a-Y2619 (aka Y2630) : formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp (Yfull)

R1b-FGC20980 (under V88) : formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1050 ybp

R1b-L4 (under U152>Z56) : ?

All of this, exept one clade of J1, are medieval guys.
On Jewish Genetics (or something like that) you have even more of this.

[Shah-Jehan]

Genealogically. Genetically my maternal line is Mustarabi Jewish.

K1a1b1a - ~4,500ya
K1a1b1 - ~13,000ya
K1a1b - ~16,000ya
K1a1 - ~17,000ya
K1a - ~18,500ya
K1 - ~22,000ya
K (U8b2) - ~27,000ya

What city were your ancestors based in? Bombay or Calcutta?

[Rethel]

What city were your ancestors based in? Bombay or Calcutta?

Jews in India 27,000 years ago?? ;)

[Longbowman]

Of course never is, becasue be cannot according to you. :)

E-Y14891 : formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

E-Y6923 : formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp

G2b1b-Y12975 (aka FGC32402) : formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

J1-ZS227 (aka Y3081) : formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp (Yfull) / 2270-3540 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)
- J1-Z18271 (Y-chromosomal Aron) : formed 2750 ybp / 2625 ybp (Iain McDonald)

J1-L816 : formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull) / 1000-1520 ybp (Iain McDonald & Marko T. Heinilä)

J1-L823 : formed 1430-1570 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)

J2-Y15223 : formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L254 : ?

J2-L556 : formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L590 : ?

Q1b-Y2200 : formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp (Yfull)

R1a-Y2619 (aka Y2630) : formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp (Yfull)

R1b-FGC20980 (under V88) : formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1050 ybp

R1b-L4 (under U152>Z56) : ?

All of this, exept one clade of J1, are medieval guys.
On Jewish Genetics (or something like that) you have even more of this.

Very interesting! Now please explain how non-Ashkenazi Jews have (almost) exactly the same groups, with different TMRCAs.

[Shah-Jehan]

Jews in India 27,000 years ago?? ;)

He said 19th century. :D

[Longbowman]

What city were your ancestors based in? Bombay or Calcutta?

Bombay and Puna.

[Rethel]

Very interesting! Now please explain how non-Ashkenazi Jews have (almost) exactly the same groups, with different TMRCAs.

Becasue they could have common ancestors. I didn;t say, that all are converts
from Middle Ages, did I? They can be, they can be older converts, but still, not
original. In antiquity were convertions too. And slave trade. But the very fact,
that there was a bottleneck, and newer conversions, shows exactly, that the
post bottleneck population is not representative for the ancient one. It can be
also, that some lineage could enter jewish community separetly twice, and this
is why you have different TMRCA in different subgroups, but older origin.

[Longbowman]

Becasue they could have common ancestors.

aaaaand the rest of your post, and the previous post, become irrelevant. Thanks for playing, guv.

[Rethel]

aaaaand the rest of your post, and the previous post, become irrelevant.

No, not irrelevant.
They came from couple of guys from Middle Ages.
But you read: come from medieval converts.
It is not my fault, that you read what you want.


Thanks for playing, guv.

What is it guv?

[Longbowman]

No, not irrelevant.
They came from couple of guys from Middle Ages.
But you read: come from medieval converts.
It is not my fault, that you read what you want.

Of course I agree the Ashkenazi YDNA percentages are not 100% representative of ancient Israel, but no one said they were, you just get your knickers in a twist whenever anyone mentions Jews.


What is it guv?

Guvnor.

[Peterski]

No, not irrelevant.
They came from couple of guys from Middle Ages.
But you read: come from medieval converts.
It is not my fault, that you read what you want.

If I bottleneck Germans, killing all except for Rethel and 99 other Germans, will descendants of these 100 Germans be representative of pre-bottleneck Germans? I mean, will they still be Germans?

Or will they become another ethnicity?

[de Burgh II]

A total of 20 binary NRY haplogroups was observed in the sample of 790 chromosomes, 19 of which were present in AJ populations (Fig. 1, Table 2). Only seven of these haplogroups (E-M35*, G-M201*, J-12f2b*, J-M172, Q-P36, R-M17, and R-P25) were present at frequencies of ≥5% (Table 2), accounting for 84.5% of AJ chromosomes. Haplogroups J and E were by far the most prevalent haplogroups in AJ populations. Haplogroup J was present at similar frequencies in western AJ (41.1%) and eastern AJ (37.0%) populations, whereas haplogroup E-M35 was present at lower frequencies in western AJ than in eastern AJ populations (7.1% versus 19.1%, respectively). Of note, the DuJ sample was distinguished from the other AJ populations by the presence of a relatively high frequency of the R-P25 haplogroup (26.1%) and the lowest frequency of J clade chromosomes (21.7%; supplementary data).[...]


Ashkenazi Jews Non-Jewish Europeans
E-SRY4064* .5% 0%
E-P1 .2% 0%
E-M35 16.1% 1.1%
E-M78 2.7% 5.2%
E-M81 .9% 0%
F-P14* .9% 0.%
G-M201* 7.7% .3%
G-P15 2% 2.6%
I-P19 4.1% 20.4%
J-12f2* 19% 1.1%
J-M172 19% 6%
K-M9* 2% .6%
L-M20 .2% 0%
N-LLY* .2% 3.4%
P-P27* .5% 0%
Q-P36 5.2% .3%
R-M173* 1.4% 1.4%
R-M17 7.5% 26.4%
R-P25 10% 30.7%
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100.1% (+.1) 99.5% (-.5)

:p

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-003-1073-7

[Rethel]

Of course I agree the Ashkenazi YDNA percentages are not 100% representative of ancient Israel,

But many people think like that, becasue Jews often suggest
it, as you some time ago did. But I am glad that you grow up :)


but no one said they were,

And noone said, that I can't express my opinion about
the results, and say what they are showing interesting.


you just get your knickers in a twist whenever anyone mentions Jews.

No, you just are searching everywhere antisemitism, even where he is not.
Stop that, becasue such attitude mostly have the result quite opposite as
you would want to. Maybe not in my case, but usually it has. If you want
Jews to be seen as "normal" stop looking for reason to be butthurt.



Guvnor.

And what is the meaning in my case?

[DarkSecret]

I thought that conversion is only possible when a Jew (man/woman) marry a non-Jew.

They don't need renegades like you.

[Rethel]

If I bottleneck Germans, killing all except for Rethel and 99 other Germans, will descendants of these 100 Germans be representative of pre-bottleneck Germans? I mean, will they still be Germans?

They will be not representative for pre-bottleneck population,
if the propotions of some feature (like hg) would be different.

And if pre-bottleneck, was a population of descendants of one
guy (plus slaves, co-religionists, aso) and the post bottleneck
population is mostly glue from these non original elements, plus
yet some new speaking german immigrants, then it depends how
you define it. These new 90% will be still not those Germans, even
if they previously contain 10%, becasue the prebottleneck Germans
were people having some particular feature, which they dont have.

If you will die (bottleneck) and your neighbour will make children to your
wife, and they will name it as yours, and you allready would "have" one
or two, which were nighbour's, when you lived, would it means, that the
pre-bottleneck population (you) is the same as post-bottleneck?



Or will they become another ethnicity?

If In america would be a bottleneck, which would kill
most of whites, and remaining peopulation would be in
90% of negros - that means, that they are now pure
Angles and Saxons from Schlezwig becasue they now
are a majority?

If XVIIth century wars, insted of killing 1/3 of Rzeczpospolita's
population would kill 90% of Sarmats, would it then mean, that
since 1660s all people living in the Republic were Szlachtamen
from the old medievial noble families? :blink:

[Rethel]

If I bottleneck Germans, killing all except for Rethel and 99 other Germans, will descendants of these 100 Germans be representative of pre-bottleneck Germans? I mean, will they still be Germans?

Simpler: if you would coincidently killed all R1, and among those 99
would be only I1, I2, G2, E1, J2, T, N, Q plus I as only one R1, (and
in addition form non reichsgermans from tiny paraslavic subclade)
then do you really think, it would be a representative population
for current Germans, for ancient tacitian ones, and the most: for
German forfathers in Russia 2000 BC?

O gosh, what these autosomals make from people... :picard1:

[Rethel]

non-Ashkenazi Jews have (almost) exactly the same groups, with different TMRCAs.

Can you present the similar list?

[Longbowman]

But many people think like that, becasue Jews often suggest
it, as you some time ago did. But I am glad that you grow up :)

I have never said otherwise you liar.


No, you just are searching everywhere antisemitism, even where he is not.
Stop that, becasue such attitude mostly have the result quite opposite as
you would want to. Maybe not in my case, but usually it has. If you want
Jews to be seen as "normal" stop looking for reason to be butthurt.

I wasn't saying you were anti-Semitic, I was saying you're obsessed. Which you are.

Don't talk about normality, dude.

[Longbowman]

Can you present the similar list?

See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/

I'm sure *all* groups magically lose 50-70% of their J...

[Longbowman]

Can you present the similar list?

See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/

I'm sure *all* groups magically lose 50-70% of their J...

[Rethel]

I have never said otherwise you liar.

Do you know the difference between sugest and say?

Yes you did, every time in last year, where I was saying,
that modern Jews are not the same/representative/have
the same hgs as ancient Israelites.


I wasn't saying you were anti-Semitic, I was saying you're obsessed. Which you are.

I didn;t said, you said it, but that you are looking for antisemitism - and this is a fact.
Otherwise, you wouldn;t read as you had read this original post of mine.

[Rethel]

See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/

I'm sure *all* groups magically lose 50-70% of their J...

Ok, thanks, I will read it later.

Do you think, that %% of hgS were constant during ages?

Look at exellent example.

Ahskenazis vs. rest of the Jews.

In yet late medieval times, they contain 3% of jewish popuklation.
In early XXth century - 90%.

The same is, could be, and was with haplogroups.
Especially, when there are conversions in both ways.
Remember also, that Jews losted 90%, if not more
people during last 2000 years - and they were also
loosing them earlier - by assimilation and genocide.

[Longbowman]

I said Ashkenazi YDNA is *mostly* Israelite, you inferred the rest incorrectly.

Other Jews have *less* J1 and J2 than Ashkenazis. Non-Ashkenazi Cohanim also have *less* J1 and J2.

So, you were suggesting something about Ashkenazis not being representative?

[Rethel]

I said Ashkenazi YDNA is *mostly* Israelite, you inferred the rest incorrectly.

Ok, so lets make it clear:

do you think, that:
- most of Ashkenazi haplotypes are israelitish?
- most of ashk people have israelitish hg?
- modern hg propotions are the same as in ancient Palestina?


Other Jews have *less* J1 and J2 than Ashkenazis. Non-Ashkenazi Cohanim also have *less* J1 and J2.

Ok, they can have.
Reason? mainly ancient Israelites
were J1 and they were the ruling
class, so logically, genocides and
assimilation mostly affected them.

What remained - grew in number, non J1
more, than J1, so today, J1 is in minority.


So, you were suggesting something about Ashkenazis not being representative?

In the context of ancient times? Yes. Everything :p

[Longbowman]

- most of Ashkenazi haplotypes are israelitish?

No. Most YDNA.


- most of ashk people have israelitish hg?

Only men.


- modern hg propotions are the same as in ancient Palestina?

Unlikely.


Ok, they can have.
Reason? mainly ancient Israelites
were J1 and they were the ruling
class, so logically, genocides and
assimilation mostly affected them.

What remained - grew in number, non J1
more, than J1, so today, J1 is in minority.

You are an insane person, Rethel.


In the context of ancient times? Yes. Everything :p

We agree! of course, J1 was not so common.

[Rethel]

No. Most YDNA.

What is the difference?


Only men.

I guess... :)



Unlikely.

And we are in home... :)


You are an insane person, Rethel.

So read, until you understand.


We agree! of course, J1 was not so common.

Was. The Israelites per se had to be.
Rest - we don;t know how many in which
century were converts, slaves and settle
nerwcomers, but the core was only J1.

[Longbowman]

Most R1b f/e is not Israelite. The fault is with the writer, not the reader, Rethel - as you know, everyone thinks you're mad or stupid.

Your final paragraph contradicts your earlier points. So sad!

[Rethel]

Most R1b f/e is not Israelite. The fault is with the writer, not the reader,

:picard1:


Rethel - as you know, everyone thinks you're mad or stupid.

Everyone = Longbowman.

I don;t care, what people think.
What is important that I am usually right.


Your final paragraph contradicts your earlier points. So sad!

In your imaginary.
It is interesting, always, when it is going
about Jews, you are automaticly forgetting
(shortly saying:) what matter is disscussed.

[Longbowman]

Everyone=everyone, you delusional maniac. Even on the Members' Photos thread we have a dozen comments about your nonsense. Perhaps I will put up a thread.

Now please, stop commenting on my thread. It is very irritating.

[Rethel]

Bump.
Some actualizations happend?


R1 22 18.0%

Now I am starting to suspect, that Leftpedia is taking her basic data from 23andme. :coffee:

[Longbowman]

Now I am starting to suspect, that Leftpedia is taking her basic data from 23andme. :coffee:

?

[Rethel]

?

Just the same %.

[Longbowman]

Just the same %.

link?

[Rethel]

link?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

But would have to recalculate AJ and SJ together on your own.

[Longbowman]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

But would have to recalculate AJ and SJ together on your own.

pardon?

[Rethel]

pardon?

The data is there devided separatly for Ashkenazis
and for Sephardis, so you would have to add them
together to have general percentage, just like that:

65163
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=65163&d=1497039560

[Hamlet]

Can you infer anything from the frequency of Ashkenazi haplogroups at all, given there was a clear founder effect? I understand you can go into subclade analysis, but that's proven to be pretty hard for mtDNA as opposed to, say, Y DNA (easy peasy). When did the bottleneck supposedly take place? I've read online that it's relatively recently, within the previous millenium (about 750 years ago IIRC), so it would be interesting to see what the haplogroup proportions would have been pre-bottleneck from early (Ashkenazi) Jewish graves in Western and Central Europe (obviously, digging them up is easier said than done).

Also, I understand the founder effect affects things like haplogroup proportions, but if Ashkenazis were relatively non-diverse (to be expected, if Sephardic non-bottlenecked populations are anything to go by) before the bottleneck, would the bottleneck really make that much of a difference in genetic diversity? Finally, if all Ashkenazim are supposedly descended from survivors of this bottleneck, how come mtDNA very noticeably varies from Western and Central Ashkenazim to Eastern Ashkenazim? The trend would seemingly give credence to the idea of Slavic maternal admixture, with mtDNA K decreasing from about half in Western and Central European AJs to only about a sixth in Russian and Ukrainian AJs, and mtDNA H increasing from about a seventh in Polish AJs (don't have the data for Central and Western European AJs) to over a quarter in Russian and Ukrainian AJs. Assuming this mtDNA variation is due to Slavic maternal admixture, why don't Eastern Ashkenazim plot differently to Western and Central Ashkenazim, or do they?

Alternatively, could this be some form of diffusion-like effect, where if (due to inherent internal variation from probability within the system) women of the larger mtDNA haplogroup have more children, it affects the proportion of the mtDNA haplogroup less than if women of the smaller mtDNA haplogroups have more children? I doubt it would be this though, as H was already the second-largest mtDNA haplogroup, and it's relative proportion increased a lot more than the other relatively tiny mtDNA haplogroups, however this is still possible, as due to being more common it is more likely that women having more children would belong to H than one of the lot less common mtDNA haplogroups (but this also applies to mtDNA K, so maybe in this scenario the attenuating factor of decreasing increases of proportion among larger mtDNA haplogroups overrules the idea of women having more children being more likely to belong to the larger haplogroups but in the scenario of mtDNA H, the idea of women having more children being more likely to belong to the larger haplogroups overrules the attenuating factor of decreasing increases of proportion among larger mtDNA haplogroups, and for tiny haplogroups the chance is just too low for the phenomenon described so far occurring due to the tiny haplogroups by definition being a lot less common).

Basically, ignoring the rambling, how much can you infer from Ashkenazi mtDNA, in terms of their subclades, their proportions, and the mtDNA haplogroup variation among AJs across the cline from Western Europe to Eastern Europe, especially considering all AJs seemingly plot more or less identically?

[Dema]

Do you have info is there any J2b1 among these J2s

EDIT: or among Jews at all

[Hamlet]

A handful of clades are obvious recent-ish converts, yes. All the people who were positive for R1b L47 had different surnames, too.

On the other hand, most of the E3b and J seems to be Near Eastern.

That surname bit is very interesting, is there a source?

[Kriptc06]

E1b1b1a2 1 0.8%

you mean v13?

[Hamlet]

Could someone here just explain why people think Ashkenazi mtDNA is European, all the lines that you'd think are European (e.g. H, U) are in roughly the same proportions as the Lebanese, and the K and N1b lines can hardly be seen as obviously European (besides K2c).

[Hamlet]

I suppose you would have to presume, though, that they are European in origin by intuition, as Sephardim look (a lot more) and plot slightly more Middle Eastern, and they have far more European Y DNA (Ashkenazim have less than 10%, probably lower), so you'd expect them to have more Middle Eastern mtDNA to make sense given they're more Middle Eastern. Still though, I'm confused, as it also seems like Sephardim have A LOT more European mtDNA too, I mean look at that H and U - there's no subclades here, but still, that is obviously European in origin as Sephardim don't seem to have gone through any severe founder effects to create this much seemingly European mtDNA:
http://oi48.tinypic.com/o6zeae.jpg.

That could be North African H though, but then you have to ask why there isn't any mtdna L there that is very present among North Africans. Compare that to Polish Ashkenazi mtDNA:
http://i47.tinypic.com/262tgr6.jpg.

Basically, this question - why do Ashkenazi Jews plot more European, if it seems like their mtDNA (and definitely, by a long margin, their Y DNA) is less European?

[Rethel]

Do you have similar circles about Y?

[Longbowman]

Do you have similar circles about Y?

What?


That surname bit is very interesting, is there a source?

What? these are all my contacts.


Could someone here just explain why people think Ashkenazi mtDNA is European, all the lines that you'd think are European (e.g. H, U) are in roughly the same proportions as the Lebanese, and the K and N1b lines can hardly be seen as obviously European (besides K2c).

Nesting. All other K1a1b1 lines are European, f/e. Although K1a1b1a is also found in Mizrakhi populations, it could be due to Ashkenazi migrations.

[Rethel]

What?

Look above on the pictures.

[Longbowman]

Look above on the pictures.

You mean similar graphs

https://speakfamily.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/ashkenazi-jewish-breakdown-cropped.png
https://popgen.us/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2014/09/Y-DNA_Ashkenazi-sizeofthe40branchespie.jpeg
http://i49.tinypic.com/2vtu04k.jpg

[Rethel]

You mean similar graphs

Yea, but for polish (and eventually maroccan/mizrahi) Jews, and this for mt was.
General aszkenazic results are commonly known. I wonder, if polish Jews would have some specifics.

[Longobarda]

Of course never is, becasue be cannot according to you. :)

E-Y14891 : formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

E-Y6923 : formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp

G2b1b-Y12975 (aka FGC32402) : formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp

J1-ZS227 (aka Y3081) : formed 5600 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp (Yfull) / 2270-3540 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)
- J1-Z18271 (Y-chromosomal Aron) : formed 2750 ybp / 2625 ybp (Iain McDonald)

J1-L816 : formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull) / 1000-1520 ybp (Iain McDonald & Marko T. Heinilä)

J1-L823 : formed 1430-1570 ybp (Marko T. Heinilä & Iain McDonald)

J2-Y15223 : formed 2500 ybp, TMRCA 1200 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L254 : ?

J2-L556 : formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 1150 ybp (Yfull)

J2-L590 : ?

Q1b-Y2200 : formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 1550 ybp (Yfull)

R1a-Y2619 (aka Y2630) : formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybp (Yfull)

R1b-FGC20980 (under V88) : formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1050 ybp

R1b-L4 (under U152>Z56) : ?

All of this, exept one clade of J1, are medieval guys.
On Jewish Genetics (or something like that) you have even more of this.

69735
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69735&d=1510492768

[Böri]

The 3,5% Q y-dna is Khazarian elite contribution.

[Longbowman]

The 3,5% Q y-dna is Khazarian elite contribution.

Q1b? I doubt it.

[Hamlet]

What?



What? these are all my contacts.



Nesting. All other K1a1b1 lines are European, f/e. Although K1a1b1a is also found in Mizrakhi populations, it could be due to Ashkenazi migrations.

Could it not be that these lineages were originally Middle Eastern but moved to Europe later on, I see this as the much more likely scenario, especially in explaining things like red hair among Jews that absolutely cannot be explained by the percentage of Jewish R1b (10%) - AJs have about as much red hair as the Benelux, which is about 60% R1b for crying out loud. Add to that the fact that lots of R1b developed in the Middle East (see below, variance map of R1b (or some subclade like M269, I can't remember)) and you have a good explanation, to my mind - that AJs have a lot of the original R1b tribe's mtDNA, as some of it was left behind by their patriarchal R1b explorers.

https://rokus01.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/balaresque_2010_r1b-variance.jpg

[Longbowman]

R1b diffused thousands of years ago, I don't know what the 'R1b tribe' you're referring to is but it didn't exist as a solid concept in human history, maybe in distant prehistory. Jews have a somewhat (like, 3%) high level of red hair because of the Ashkenazi population bottleneck. Haplogroups and physical attributes don't overlap. Even if K were all European, it'd still be Neolithic.

[Bobby Martnen]

Why no I-M253, despite Jews living in Germany for millenia?

[Rethel]

R1b diffused thousands of years ago, I don't know what the 'R1b tribe' you're referring to is but it didn't exist as a solid concept in human history, maybe in distant prehistory.

As a part of R1 tribe, becaseu since the
earliest findings, it is side by side with 1a.

[Longbowman]

Why no I-M253, despite Jews living in Germany for millenia?

Because they didn't mix much or even at all.

Millennia is strong, 3-400 years from Charlemagne to Worms, 4-500 years from the late middle ages to now.

[Bobby Martnen]

Because they didn't mix much or even at all.

Millennia is strong, 3-400 years from Charlemagne to Worms, 4-500 years from the late middle ages to now.

Then where did the R1b come from?

[Rethel]

Then where did the R1b come from?

From R1.

[Bobby Martnen]

From R1.

No how did Jews get it if it's Western European?

[Hamlet]

Why no I-M253, despite Jews living in Germany for millenia?

Hello!

Mainly because Jews didn't mix much in Europe.

[Hamlet]

Then where did the R1b come from?

From the Middle East, though some is L51 which is clearly European.

[Bobby Martnen]

Hello!

Mainly because Jews didn't mix much in Europe.

Is your direct paternal line Jewish?

[Rethel]

No how did Jews get it if it's Western European?

By converting IEs.
Since 750 BC they lived in IE society,
so they had a plenty of time.

[Hamlet]

Is your direct paternal line Jewish?

Yup, I'm fully Jewish (except from way back when that I1 entered)

[Hamlet]

Ignore Rethel btw, he's an idiot

[Hamlet]

Is your direct paternal line Jewish?

If you're interested, Ashkenazi I1 entered the Jewish bloodline about 1000 years ago, which coincides with the Rhineland massacres (probably a riled-up peasant as part of the People's Crusade raped a Jewess):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

[Longbowman]

No how did Jews get it if it's Western European?

R1b-V88 isn't really European.

There are a few minor R1b European lineages in Jews from the little mixing that did occur.

[Hamlet]

R1b-V88 isn't really European.

There are a few minor R1b European lineages in Jews from the little mixing that did occur.

Most Jewish R1b is M269, but not L51. Also, the only relevant "Goy" R1b is some U152 and the "Ivanhoe" U106 (I think about 6% of AJs have this Y DNA).

[Hamlet]

Also, almost all the non-Jewish Ashkenazi Y DNA is from mixing that took place among Sephardim (who later mixed with Ashkenazim)

[Rethel]

Ignore Rethel btw, he's an idiot

And you are not, thinking, that conversions never happend... yea... :picard2:

[Rethel]

R1b-V88 isn't really European.

It is in Europe.
It was in Europe.
It is from Europe.

So, how is not really european, hę?

[Gangrel]

Does anybody have any information about R0A2? I'm still not sure about it's origins to be honest, hard to find information about it

[Longbowman]

It is in Europe.
It was in Europe.
It is from Europe.

So, how is not really european, hę?

It is more common by far outside of Europe and it is not from Europe. Additionally even if it were from Europe it was almost certainly in the Levant in pre-exodus times which is the point.

tldr you're wrong.

[Kelmendasi]

Does anybody have any information about R0A2? I'm still not sure about it's origins to be honest, hard to find information about it
RO is the mother clade of haplogroups such as H, ROa seems to have the highest diversity and prevalence in Arabia suggesting that it originated there and expanded from there. Your ROa2 could be linked to a Neolithic expansion into West Asia from SW Asia imo

[Gangrel]

RO is the mother clade of haplogroups such as H, ROa seems to have the highest diversity and prevalence in Arabia suggesting that it originated there and expanded from there. Your ROa2 could be linked to a Neolithic expansion into West Asia from SW Asia imo

So do you think in my case it would be more likely Arabian or South Asian? I read up that Kalash have the highest percentage of R0A2 (23% I think) and I score more south asian than arabic

[Gangrel]

Nvm, I'm quite confident that it's Arabian, I just remembered about when I contacted a 5th cousin Iraqi Bedouin. She had the same MtDNA as me

[Rethel]

It is more common by far outside of Europe and it is not from Europe. Additionally even if it were from Europe it was almost certainly in the Levant in pre-exodus times which is the point.

tldr you're wrong.

V88 was allready found in neolithic spain.
African V88 has less than 2000 years.
Pre-V88 was found in mesolithic central and east Europe.
V88 could be in pre-exodus Egypt, becasue there was allready some ancient migration.
It doesn;t change the fact, that migration was from Europe as above, so it is european.

The point was, being from europe, not where v88 was converted.

[Bobby Martnen]

If you're interested, Ashkenazi I1 entered the Jewish bloodline about 1000 years ago, which coincides with the Rhineland massacres (probably a riled-up peasant as part of the People's Crusade raped a Jewess):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

Do you know your subclade of I1? (I don't know mine)

[Hamlet]

It is in Europe.
It was in Europe.
It is from Europe.

So, how is not really european, hę?

It's not European mate, even if its sometimes found in Europe - plenty of non-European Y DNA is found in Europe.

[Hamlet]

Do you know your subclade of I1? (I don't know mine)

No but I think there's only one Ashkenazi I1 subclade, and I know that my I1 isn't recent at all from my 23andme test (very little non-Jewish DNA, about if ever so slightly more than average for Ashkenazim - roughly 98% AJ, 1% generic, 1% non-Jewish specific)

[Arduti]

No but I think there's only one Ashkenazi I1 subclade, and I know that my I1 isn't recent at all from my 23andme test (very little non-Jewish DNA, about if ever so slightly more than average for Ashkenazim - roughly 98% AJ, 1% generic, 1% non-Jewish specific)

Which I1 subclade is Jewish?

[Hamlet]

Which I1 subclade is Jewish?

Well not Jewish originally obviously, but here:

http://jewishdna.net/AB-086.html

[Abti]

122 is a bad sample size.

I’ve seen a sample of 1215 pure AJ.

R1b tops J1-J2 ~50%.

R - 38%
R1b-R1a - 26/12%

J - 30%
(J2: 17%, J1: 13%)

E - 19%
(E1b1b: 80%, E* 20%)

G - 6%

Q - 4%

I - 2%

T - 1%