Petros Agapetos about Armenia

[Petros Agapetos]

Armenia is a not-quite-Asian, not-quite-European country in the Caucasus region. It is bordered by Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia, Iran, and the internationally unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic which is claimed by both Azerbaijan and Armenia. The Kingdom of Armenia was the first nation to recognize Christianity as the official state religion in 301, predating the Roman Empire's legalization of Christianity by 12 years. Consequently, the Armenian Apostolic Church (independent of Eastern Orthodoxy) is the world's oldest state church. Nearly 95% of Armenians belong to the Church.

The Armenian genocide took place between 1915 and 1918; the Ottoman Empire committed systematic killings, deportations, and forced displacement of the (predominantly Christian) Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of 1 to 1.5 million people. The factuality of the Armenian genocide is denied by the government of Turkey, who argue it was a religious and ethnic war, and that up to a million Islamic Turks and Kurds died during the period at the hands of Armenian militiamen, as part of the broader phenomena of Christian-Muslim violence throughout the Ottoman Empire at the time.

Armenia was part of the Soviet Union from 1922 through 1991. At first it was part of the Transcaucasian SSR. The Armenian SSR was formed in 1936.

Armenia declared independence from the Soviets in 1990, and was internationally recognized after the dissolution of the USSR in 1991. Armenia has disputed the Nagorno-Karabakh region with Azerbaijan since then, up to the present day.

[Petros Agapetos]

Armenian Genocide denial refers to the denial of the genocide against (already systematically discriminated) Armenians committed by the Ottoman Empire under the rule of the Young Turks from 1915 to 1918. Turkey denies that the Ottomans were responsible for the killing of one million Armenians during World War I, arguing that:

1. The death toll has been inflated;
2. Ethnic violence killed Turks as well;
3. Deportations and death marches were simply "temporarily relocation" of Armenians for "security reasons" (i.e. the pesky Armenians were being overtly "rebellious," "hostile," or pro-Russian); and
4. The Ottoman leadership didn't intend to exterminate the Armenians, so it can't be called a "genocide."

As early as 1915, Britain, France, and Russia issued a statement that the Armenians were the victims of crimes against humanity and civilization (the term "genocide" didn't exist then). The Treaty of Sevres signed in 1920 created an Armenian state. However, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the first then-president of the Great National Assembly, refused to abide by the treaty and occupied the Armenian Republic by the Treaties of Kars and Moskova, signed with the Armenians and the Soviet Russians respectively. The Armenian Republic collapsed and was subsumed by Turkey and the Soviet Union by said treaties, with many more deportations of Armenians taking place in the process. Turkey escaped being held responsible by the international community.

[Kamal900]

My condolences to all of the innocent Armenian men, women and children that were killed by the savage bloodthirsty Turks.

[Petros Agapetos]

Recognition of the Armenian Genocide is a thorny issue since Turkey occupies a very strategic position in the world. Currently, 43 nations provide some level of recognition of the event. Historically, Turkey has leveraged its position as an important ally in the Middle East to keep the United States from recognizing the genocide. The United States has recently joined the group of nations that recognize what the Ottomans did. Another holdout is Israel, which has only tepidly recognized the genocide. This is largely because the Israelis are in-between a rock and a hard place; Turkey is one of the few predominantly Muslim nations in their region which maintains some level of diplomatic ties with them.

[Petros Agapetos]

My condolences to all of the innocent Armenian men, women and children that were killed by the savage bloodthirsty Turks.

Turks have committed massacres against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, since time imemorial. It's almost as if it is in their culture or perhaps even in their genes, who knows, I am not a scientist, but I am a naturalist, there must be some natural explanation of their inhumanity, savagery, thuggery, and barbarism. I blame the political ideology of jihad, sharia, and dhimma, in the Turkish persecution of Christians. I am unique in this position. Most Armenians would not generalize over all of Islam as I do. Most Armenians would only blame the Turks, and Islam isn't even mentioned or considered as a possible factor.

Part of the reason why I opened this thread is that I wanted to know whether my understanding of the Armenian Genocide is accurate. And whether I am blaming the right people justifiably. I don't want to accuse innocent people.

[Kamal900]

Turks have committed massacres against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, since time imemorial. It's almost as if it is in their culture or perhaps even genese, who knows, I am not a scientist, but I am a naturalist, there must be some natural explanation of their savagery and barbarism. I blame the political ideology of jihad, sharia, and dhimma, in the Turkish persecution of Christians. I am unique in this position. Most Armenians would not broadly generalize over all Muslims or Islam, in as sweeping a fashion that I do.

Part of the reason why I opened this thread is that I wanted to know whether my understanding of the Armenian Genocide is accurate. And whether I am blaming the right people justifiably. I don't want to accuse innocent people.

The Young Turks were a Pan-Turanist and Secular organization, and they persecuted the Armenians and other Christians based on racial and religious grounds. Turks today refuse to take responsibilities of their actions towards their Christian neighbors, and yet, they claim to be civilized and etc. Disgusting.

[Petros Agapetos]

The Turks are probably the most outspoken objecters to the term "genocide." In fact, a Turk, in Turkey, can even be arrested for acknowledging that one took place (a strange inversion of laws that criminalize Holocaust denial). This falls under Article 301 of the Turkish penal code, which makes it a crime to "insult Turkishness" (regardless of whether it's true). Prosecutors brought such a case in 2005 against writer Orhan Pamuk.

There are Turks outside of the Armenian community who recognize the Armenian Genocide. This includes scholars like Orhan Pamuk, Fatma Muge Cocek, and Taner Akçam. This has not gone over well with much of the Turkish public, especially nationalists.

[Petros Agapetos]

Anti-Semitic Inversion

Certain bigots have accused Jews of deliberately not giving the Armenian Genocide (as well as other genocides) enough attention in the media (as they supposedly run it) in order to focus solely on the Holocaust. That said, Israel (as opposed to the nebulous group of Joooz!!!) has been rather loath to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide and careful about not drawing parallels with the Holocaust so as not to offend Turkish officialdom, a fact eagerly snapped up by the aforementioned bigots. This has less to do with any anti-Armenianism and more to do with Turkey being pretty much the only country in the region not hostile to Israel.

Anti-Islamic Inversion

As if the above wasn't enough, the infamous conservative tabloid Breitbart launched an article on the 100th anniversary of the genocide claiming that the world refused to recognize the genocide out of fear of offending Muslims. The article also claims that the genocide which was committed by the secular Young Turks, was doing so out of Islamism. The article conveniently ignores that Syria, Lebanon and the Tehran regional governments recognize the genocide and that Armenian Christians are often close with the Arab Muslims in many of the countries they reside in.

Needless to say, Armenians are probably not too thrilled about either bigoted inversion listed above, as they're primarily meant to detract focus on the genocide itself onto other bigoted conspiracies.

[Petros Agapetos]

What role do you think Islam played in the Armenian Genocide?
Muslim persecution of Christians did not start with the Turks, it started with Islam.

[Kamal900]

What role do you think Islam played in the Armenian Genocide?
Muslim persecution of Christians did not start with the Turks, it started with Islam.

Many Muslim Arabs in the Levant and North Africa love Armenians and etc, and they support the christian Greeks, Armenians, Serbs and etc than the Muslim Turks, Albanians and etc. Turks converted to Islam due on the fact that the religion fits their narrative in committing heinous atrocities against their enemies and etc. Genghis Khan and his Turko-Mongol Armies were not Muslims, but at the same time, they have killed over 5 percent of the world population during their reign of terror.

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUJ7L2YKhik

The Young Turks get confronted about the Armenian Genocide.

[Profileid]

Over 600 posts in a single week.
Just fucking incredible.

[Petros Agapetos]

Many Muslim Arabs in the Levant and North Africa love Armenians and etc, and they support the christian Greeks, Armenians, Serbs and etc than the Muslim Turks, Albanians and etc. Turks converted to Islam due on the fact that the religion fits their narrative in committing heinous atrocities against their enemies and etc. Genghis Khan and his Turko-Mongol Armies were not Muslims, but at the same time, they have killed over 5 percent of the world population during their reign of terror.

There are Armenian communities in Syria (or at least, used to be), Lebanon, and Israel.
They have been very hospitable to Armenians. I appreciate this.
Even though I hate Islam, I do not harbor any ethnic hatred towards Arabic speaking peoples of the Middle East. I have a much more nuanced stance on the Middle East.

[Petros Agapetos]

Is modern Armenia a secular country?

Armenian users, do you think this is a good idea for a topic on this forum?

How secular is our country? Secularism means separation of religion from government.

Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.

One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.

Another manifestation of secularism is the view that public activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be uninfluenced by religious beliefs and/or practices.

[Kamal900]

There are Armenian communities in Syria (or at least, used to be), Lebanon, and Israel.
They have been very hospitable to Armenians. I appreciate this.
Even though I hate Islam, I do not harbor any ethnic hatred towards Arabic speaking peoples of the Middle East. I have a much more nuanced stance on the Middle East.

:thumb001:

[Petros Agapetos]

What do you think of Armenia?

[Petros Agapetos]

bump

[Petros Agapetos]

Members, what do you think of Armenians?

[Petros Agapetos]

Do you sense any Christian bias by the way I argue for my country?

[Petros Agapetos]

If you ever consider visiting Armenia, I'd recommend you visit Sevan and Jermuk, and of course our capital city, the best hotels are there.

Sevan (Armenian: Սևան), is a town and popular resort in Armenia, located in the Gegharkunik Province on the northwestern shores of Lake Sevan. The town is located at a height of more than 1,925 metres (6,316 feet) above sea level, 65 km (40 mi) northeast of the capital Yerevan, and 35 km (22 mi) north of Gavar, the administrative centre of Gegharkunik Province. The town is surrounded by Sevan National Park, which extend from the northeastern parts of the town to the southwest, while Lake Sevan forms the natural border of the city to the east.

As of the 2011 census, the population of the town was 19,229. However, as per the 2016 official estimate, the population of Sevan is 19,200.

Jermuk (Armenian: Ջերմուկ) is a mountain spa town in the southern Armenian province of Vayots Dzor Province, 53 km east of the provincial capital Yeghegnadzor. It was a popular destination during the Soviet era and nowadays is still famous for its hot springs and mineral water brands bottled in the town. It is attractive for its fresh air, waterfalls, artificial lakes, walking trails, the surrounding forests and mineral water pools. The town is being redeveloped to become a modern centre of tourism and health services. Jermuk is also being set up to become a major Chess centre, with numerous chess international tournaments scheduled in the town.

As of the 2011 census, the population of the town is 4,628. The nearby village of Kechut (pop. 1,083) is also part of the municipality (community) of Jermuk.

[Armenian Bishop]

... The Armenian genocide took place between 1915 and 1918; the Ottoman Empire committed systematic killings, deportations, and forced displacement of the (predominantly Christian) Armenian population, resulting in the deaths of 1 to 1.5 million people ...

Many scholars assert that the Armenian Genocide wasn't confined to World War I (1915-1918), but went on some years after the war (1915-1923), under the watch of Kemal Ataturk, the Bolsheviks, and the Azeri-Turks (also known as Caucasian Tatars). The case can be made that the Hamidian Massacres (1894-1896) and the Adana Massacre (1909), aren't separate or distinct from the later 1915 Genocide. The case can be made, because none of them were isolated massacres, rather they composed a state managed agenda of premeditated genocide.

[Petros Agapetos]

Many scholars assert that the Armenian Genocide wasn't confined to World War I (1915-1918), but went on for some years after the war (1915-1923), under the watch of Kemal Ataturk, the Bolsheviks, and the Azeri-Turks (also known as Caucasian Tatars). It's debatable that the Hamidian Massacres (1894-1896) and the Adana Massacre (1909), could be bundled together with the later genocide events, because they too weren't isolated massacres, but a premeditated state agenda to eliminate its Christian minorities.

Oh my God, so why do people only quote 1.5 million. What is the total amount of Armenians lost to the Turkish savages?
And yet some Turks still have the gaul to insult the memory of the innocent victims by all kinds of thuggish tactics, including disinformation and misinformation, and propaganda.

[Armenian Bishop]

Oh my God, so why do people only quote 1.5 million. What is the total amount of Armenians lost to the Turkish savages?
And yet some Turks still have the gaul to insult the memory of the innocent victims by all kinds of thuggish tactics, including disinformation and misinformation, and propaganda.

The government funded Turkish lobby has resorted to blackmail & bribery, as well as the usual genocide denial strategies. In 2009, FBI Translator Sibel Edmonds provided courtroom testimony about Turkish agents involved in blackmailing a U.S. Congresswoman.

From her courtroom testimony:

Turkish agents started gathering information on her, and they found out that she was bisexual." A female Turkish agent is said to have "struck up a relationship with her", and then, following the death of Schakowsky's mother, the woman is said to have attended the funeral "hoping to exploit her vulnerability."

"They later were intimate in Schakowsky's townhouse," Edmonds tells Giraldi, "which had been set up with recording devices and hidden cameras."

The reason for attempting to get at Schakowsky, Edmonds believes, is so that they would be able to get both her "and her husband Robert Creamer to perform certain illegal operational facilitations for them in Illinois," along with Hastert, who was already on the payroll, and several other Chicago officials.

http://gawker.com/5364536/did-this-congresswoman-have-lesbian-affair-with-a-turkish-spy

[Petros Agapetos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWyugCPf0LQ

Bullies and thugs keep telling us 'keep quiet or it will be worse for you'. And of course the only proper response is to speak out and to resist and not be quiet and make life as uncomfortable for the bully as possible by good old fashioned techniques of peer pressure and public shaming.

[Petros Agapetos]

Users, what do you think of Armenia, the country, the people, and the language?

[Petros Agapetos]

What do you think of Armenian people?

[adsız]

Lies, Damn Lies, and Armenian Deaths

Bruce Fein
Constitutional Lawyer and Author
07/05/2009 05:12 am ET | Updated May 25, 2011

To paraphrase Mark Twain, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and the number of Armenians who are claimed by Armenians and their echo chambers to have died in an alleged World War I genocide. Almost a century later, the number of deaths they assert oscillates between 1.5-2 million. But the best contemporary estimates by Armenians or their sympathizers were 300,000-750,000 (compared with 2.4 million Ottoman Muslim deaths in Anatolia). Further, not a single one of those deaths necessarily falls within the definition of genocide in the authoritative Genocide Convention of 1948. It requires proof that the accused was responsible for the physical destruction of a group in whole or in substantial part specifically because of their race, nationality, religion, or ethnicity. A political or military motivation for a death falls outside the definition.

Immediately after the war, when events and memories were fresh, Armenians had no incentive to concoct high casualty figures or genocidal motivations for their deaths. Their objective was statehood. Armenians were encouraged by the self-determination concept in President Woodrow Wilson’s Fourteen Points, (while conveniently forgetting that they were a minority in Eastern Anatolia where they hoped to found a new nation). Armenian leaders pointed to their military contribution to defeating the Ottomans and population figures that would sustain an Armenian nation.

Boghus Nubar, then Head of the Armenian Delegation to the Paris Peace Conference (1919), wrote to the French Foreign Minister Stephen Pichon: “The Armenians have been, since the beginning of the war, de facto belligerents, as you yourself have acknowledged, since they have fought alongside the Allies on all fronts, enduring heavy sacrifices and great suffering for the sake of their unshakable attachment to the cause of the Entente....” Nubar had earlier written to the Foreign Minister on October 29, 1918, that Armenians had earned their independence: “We have fought for it. We have poured out our blood for it without stint. Our people played a gallant part in the armies that won the victory.”

When their quest for statehood shipwrecked on the Treaty of Lausanne and annexation by the Soviet Union in 1921, Armenians revised their soundtrack to endorse a contrived genocide thesis. It seeks a “pound of flesh” from the Republic of Turkey in the form of recognition, reparations, and boundary changes. To make their case more convincing, Armenians hiked the number of deaths. They also altered their story line from having died as belligerents against the Turks to having perished like unarmed helpless lambs.

Vahan Vardapet, an Armenian cleric, estimated a prewar Ottoman Armenian population of 1.26 million. At the Peace Conference, Armenian leader Nubar stated that 280,000 remained in the Empire and 700,000 had emigrated elsewhere. Accepting those Armenian figures, the number of dead would be 280,000. George Montgomery of the Armenia-American Society estimated a prewar Armenian population of 1.4-1.6 million, and a casualty figure of 500,000 or less. Armenian Van Cardashian, in testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1919, placed the number of Armenian dead at 750,000, i.e., a prewar population of 1.5 million and a post-war figure of 750,000.

After statehood was lost, Armenians turned to their genocide playbook which exploited Christian bigotries and contempt for Ottoman Muslims. They remembered earlier successful anti-Ottoman propaganda. United States Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire during the war, Henry Morganthau, was openly racist and devoted to propaganda. On November 26, 1917, Morgenthau confessed in a letter to President Wilson that he intended to write a book vilifying Turks and Germans to, “win a victory for the war policy of the government.” In his biography, “Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story,” Morgenthau betrays his racist hatred toward Turks (“humanity and civilization never for a moment enters their mind”) and unconditional admiration for Armenians (“They are so superior to the Turks intellectually and morally.”).

British Prime Minister Gladstone’s histrionic figure of 60,000 Bulgarian Christians slaughtered in 1876 captured the imagination of the west. The true figure later provided by a British Ambassador was 3,500—including Turks who were first slain by the Christians.

From 280,000-750,000, Armenians initially raised their death count to 800,000 to test the credibility waters. It passed muster with uninformed politicians easily influenced by campaign contributions and voting clout. Armenians then jumped the number to 1.5 million, and then 1.8 million by Armenian historian Kevork Aslan. For the last decades, an Armenian majority seems to have settled on the 1.5 million death plateau—which still exceeds their contemporary estimates by 200 to 500 percent. They are now testing the waters at 2.5-3 million killed as their chances for a congressional genocide resolution recede. It speaks volumes that champions of the inflated death figures have no explanation for why Armenians on the scene would have erred. Think of the absurdity of discarding the current death count of Afghan civilians in the United States-Afghan war in favor of a number deduced in the year 2109!

Armenians have a genuine tale of woe. It largely overlaps with the tale of tragedy and suffering that can be told by Ottoman Muslims during the war years: 2.4 million deaths in Anatolia, ethnic cleansing, starvation, malnutrition, untreated epidemics, and traumatic privations of war under a decrepit and collapsing Empire.

Unskewed historical truth is the antechamber of Turkish-Armenian reconciliation. That is why the Government of Turkey has proposed an international commission of impartial and independent experts with access to all relevant archives to determine the number and characterization of World War I deaths. Armenians are balking because they are skeptical of their own figures and accusations.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/lies-damn-lies-and-armeni_b_211408.html

[Armenian Bishop]

Lies, Damn Lies, and Armenian Deaths

Bruce Fein
Constitutional Lawyer and Author
07/05/2009 05:12 am ET | Updated May 25, 2011

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-fein/lies-damn-lies-and-armeni_b_211408.html

Bruce Fein is on the payroll of Turkish Lobbies. He serves as a legal representative for the Turkish Coalition of America (TCA), the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund (TALDF), the Assembly of Turkish American Associations (ATAA), and it wouldn't surprise me to find that he represents other Turkish Lobby Groups (given his track record). He's a SpinDoctor, who twists historical realities to suit the vested interests of the Turkish Government. It's no different than for a farmer to put the fox in charge of the henhouse.

The Revered Bruce Fein & Foreign Lobby Dollars in the Form of Illegal Payment of Legal Bills.
Published by NewsBud, 24 August, 2011, and authored by Sibel Edmonds.

http://www.newsbud.com/2011/08/24/rep-jean-schmidt-found-guilty-of-accepting-500000-in-‘indirect’-turkish-lobby-payment/

I’ve been meaning to write about this for weeks, and just got around doing it. Maybe the subconscious procrastination was due to the conscious sanitization of this news by venues like this. Maybe it was the dread of having to tackle one of the quasi media phony darlings like this guy. Or maybe it was the repressed exhaustion-frustration I went through a couple of years back with this. Okay, allow me to start with the fairly recent development reported ‘incompletely and badly’ by the New York Times:

Representative Jean Schmidt, Republican of Ohio, has been ordered by the House Ethics Committee to repay a Turkish-American group $500,000 for legal services it improperly paid for to help her pursue a defamation lawsuit and other legal proceedings against a Democratic opponent in the 2008 election.

As you can see, very consciously the Times avoids naming ‘that Democratic opponent.’ Because naming him, David Krikorian, would require some fact citing and more context-background on the case; the case they together with the rest of the mainstream media went out of their way to black out. And doing ‘that’ would God forbid bring up the long-blacked-out state secrets privilege in my case. And ‘that’ my dear friends, is something that has been forbidden to these stenographers in the media circus.

So let’s continue the no-coverage coverage of a very significant case involving Congresswoman Jean Schmidt and the twisted and rechanneled Turkish Foreign Lobby dollars:

The action by the House committee, disclosed Friday, did not come with a formal punishment, because ethics investigators concluded that Ms. Schmidt had been misled by her own lawyers from the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund about who was paying the legal bills.

Ms. Schmidt was ordered to amend her annual personal financial disclosure reports to acknowledge the gift from the Turkish Coalition of America, which actually paid the bills, and then reimburse the lawyers.

The report above casually, and very quickly, glosses over one of the implicated, that is, directly implicated, parties in this case: Schmidt’s lawyer- the lawyer who supposedly, and intentionally, misled his client, and did so with a dollar amount not in the thousands, but actually half a million dollars. Ordinarily this slip by a government garbage disposal facility like the Times would not raise big flags. However, this lawyer is no ordinary lawyer. The lawyer in question here happens to be a famous, very public, high-profile and very deviously and shrewdly marketed man. The lawyer in this case is none other than deceivingly perceived Bruce Fein. A man who has gotten very wealthy thanks to the foreign lobby, in this case the Turkish lobby in need of a man who knows the maze that gets the cheese to the congressional mice:

In 2007, Ayasli transferred $30 million in stock to fund a new endeavor, the nonprofit Turkish Coalition of America. The organization is headquartered in a Washington suite that has also been listed as the address for the Turkish Coalition USA PAC, the lobbying firm of Lydia Borland (who has represented the Turkish government), and the law firm of Bruce Fein and Associates (Fein comprises half of the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund).

In addition to the advocacy done through the ATC (which also funds trips to Turkey for congressional staff), a handful of its members--Citigroup, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, Chevron, Textron, United Technologies, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, which spent a combined $80 million lobbying Washington last year lobbied Congress directly on the genocide resolution and other issues important to Turkey; the Aerospace Industries Association, a trade group, helped coordinate the effort.

Oh wait, Bruce Fein is married to Mattie Fein, the Republican candidate who ran against Jane Harman in 2010. Had she won, how would one go about calculating and deducting her campaign-donation ‘gifts’ from her husbands million-dollar foreign lobby gifts? Isn’t it interesting? And as far as Turkey’s former partner lobby, the Israeli Lobby, this is where Bruce & his voluptuous wife stand when given the Zionism litmus test:

7. Would you support Israel taking military action to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons? Under what circumstances?

The United States should support whatever Israel believes is justified by national security worries over Iran.

I know Mr. Fein has many pro-liberties fans out there who are mistaking him for ‘real;’ some consider him a real constitutionalist who stands for liberties and against secrecy. That’s very similar to those who fell for Obama the constitutionalist. Remember, Obama the author of a very constitutional book? Recall the beautiful words spoken and sold as pro liberties, pro change, anti secrecy and beyond? Well, you have a similar situation with Mr. Fein: he talks a good talk, and writes well. As for who Mr. Fein is: you are looking at a man long succumbed to foreign lobby and military industrial complex lobby dollars. You are looking at a man far more loyal to Israel and its lobby than to our nation. You actually have a man who believes any war would be justified for the sake of Israel. And in the latest Schmidt case you are looking at a man who helped funnel half a million dollar foreign ‘Bakshish’ to his congresswoman friend, and even indicted by the lame Congressional Ethics Committee as an attorney who intentionally misled his client.

Yet, you see none of this in the New York Times coverage. These points are intentionally omitted in mainstream media reports. Just as they were during my case-a topic that threatened corrupt US officials, MIC and Foreign lobbies.

I think I have made the case for the intentional black out and modification of this development by the US media. I am going to stop here, but you can read and watch more on this here.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I dont really know anything about armenia except they once had nation and that they were genocided by turks. Thats all I know and that many are Christians.

[JeSB]

Turks have committed massacres against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, since time imemorial. It's almost as if it is in their culture or perhaps even in their genes, who knows, I am not a scientist, but I am a naturalist, there must be some natural explanation of their inhumanity, savagery, thuggery, and barbarism. I blame the political ideology of jihad, sharia, and dhimma, in the Turkish persecution of Christians. I am unique in this position. Most Armenians would not generalize over all of Islam as I do. Most Armenians would only blame the Turks, and Islam isn't even mentioned or considered as a possible factor.

Part of the reason why I opened this thread is that I wanted to know whether my understanding of the Armenian Genocide is accurate. And whether I am blaming the right people justifiably. I don't want to accuse innocent people.

You're a legit imbecille.
I mean, I already knew how obtuse you were judging from your posting history, but now you've essentially proven you are bereft of common sense (unable to logically derive sound conclusions from the existing information), thereby proving you are an imbecille.

The massacres on ethnic minorities, Armenian and Assyrian chiefly, were perpetrated under the auspices and orders of donmeh converts who were full-blown supporters of Jacobinism and the hardcore secular nationalism it creates, which ironically you actually support, even if tacitly, by fawning over the Enlightenment and the products. In the 1913 census of the Ottoman Empire, about 1/4 people were Christians who while not having the same sociopolitical benefits of the Muslim population weren't being anyhow displaced or murdered.
This is a point that is not only known to a subset of Turkish historians, but also to Western historians who bother to take a minute to study the topic can identify easily. The same masonic influence that led to the creation of the Turkish republic, was the same origin of the ethnic cleansing done in Anatolia in the early XX Century.

Read Youssef Hindi or something: http://le-blog-sam-la-touch.over-blog.com/2016/12/ou-va-erdogan-asi.html

Or better yet, shut up and only speak when needed. Good life lesson.

[Sikeliot]

This thread is being temporarily closed so it can be cleaned up a bit. I will not get to it until tomorrow but there is too much off-topic and too many insults here. It will be reopened ASAP.

[DI1ck]

This thread has been cleansed of off-topic nonsense and is now re-opened. If adsız or anyone else attempts to further derail it, the offending posts will be removed and the thread closed once again.

Personally, I find it absurd that someone can't discuss Armenia here without certain propaganda artists flocking in and derailing it in every which way possible... Please try to stay on topic. Thanks.

[Petros Agapetos]

The Armenians and their lands

Armenians call themselves Hay (pl. Hayk’) and their country Hayastan.[2] The Armenians have called themselves also Aramean Azg (Nation of Aram), T’orkomean Azg (Nation of Togarmah), Haykazean Azg (Nation of Hayk) and Askanazean Azg (Nation of Askanaza); the latter is an anachronism, since in the Bible 'Askanaz' represents the Scythians. The term 'Armenian', when it was created in the 3rd millennium BC, originally denoted the Hay people.

The country representing Armenia, the highlands to the east of peninsular Anatolia, was the previous Kingdom of Ararat. The borders of Armenia have changed so often that one can only give a rough description of it, such as: to the east up to the confluence of the rivers Kur and Araxes, to the south River Araxes, south of the Kashiari range of mountains up to Nisibis (Mtsbin), to the west the River Euphrates and to the north the Pontus range of mountains, the southern plains of Georgia and the Kur river.

The Hays (Proto-Armenians) are mentioned, for the first time, in the Hittite inscriptions as Hayasa. The hieroglyphic inscriptions of the Proto-Armenians contain some ancient discarded and forgotten words which still have their exact parallels in Germanic languages such as English: sore = Proto-Armenian sor, tap = tap’, ire = ira, door = dur, mass = mas, daddy = tati, tie = ti, day = ti, bit = pih, cwēn = kin, negative prefix un = an, etc. But the English words quoted are the result of many years of development which had different phonetics in the past.

Consequently, we are left with a single name, a name of unique importance.The ancient Armenian god Tir, also known as Tīw and Tiwaz, was only known to the Hays of Armenia. In Armenia Tir was the supreme god, but under the hegemony of the Achaemenids, Ahura Mazta (Aramazd) became supreme and Tir his scribe, defender of arts and letters and god of oracles and dreams. No other nation besides the Armenians have such a god.

[Petros Agapetos]

Kingdoms of the Proto-Armenians

The native people of the Armenian Highland called themselves Armens and Hayasa, after the name of the Armenian patriarchs Aram and Hayk.

b) The Scythian and Cimmerian pressure in the 8th and 7th centuries BC forced some Paeonians to leave their country for Anatolia.

c) Darius I (522-486 BC) in 510 BC instructed his general Megabazos] to deport the Paeonians east of Lake Prasias to Anatolia.

d) The Paeonians disappeared east of the River Strymon due to pressure from the Macedonians to the west and the Thracians to the east.

e) Alexander the Great’s expedition to Asia included Paeonian cavalry and Agrianian infantry; these soldiers disappeared at the end of the campaigns, but never returned to their homelands in the Balkans.

f) The Paeonian people were carried along with the Celts (Galataeans) to Anatolia, 275 BC.

g) Philip V of Macedonia expelled the population of Bylazora in 217 BC.[21] These people arrived in Armenia and settled to the south of Ararat, establishing the city of Bayazet.

h) Again, Philip V of Macedonia expelled all the Paeonians in 182 BC. Most of these migrants arrived and settled around Nisibis (Mtsbin), to the south of Armenia. The extensive lands of the south became known, after their name, as Mygdonia.

Below is a list of the various kingdoms, the branches of the Proto-Armenians, with dates (if known). The kings in block letters are those who left hieroglyphic inscriptions. The Assyrians recorded some kings by their demotic names; these Assyrian versions are shown after a dash. These are followed after an oblique by the names recorded by Moses Khorenats’i in his late 5th century work, the History of the Armenians, were rewritten in classical Armenian for the understanding of the people of that period.

1. Carchemish kingdom starts very early in the 10th century BC: Suhis I (10th century) and his Hurrian queen Watis; Asatuwatimaza/Amasia (10th century); Suhis II (10th century); Katuwa/Kaypak (10th-9th centuries) and his queen Ana; Sangara/Gaŗnik (9th century); Astiruwa/Erast (early 8th century, died c. 770 BC in a plague) and his queen Tuwarasaisa/Nuart; Kamana/Havanak (8th century, died 738 BC); Pisiri/Husak (8th century the last king dethroned by Sargon II of Assyria 718 BC). Two of the famous prime ministers recorded in history: Iarairaisa/Arayan Ara (first half 8th century, died at Nineveh 754 BC); Sastura/Baz (8th century, son of Iarairaisa).

2. Kingdom of Gurgum (Marash) starts very early in the 10th century BC: Larazamasa I (10th century); Muwazisa/Manavaz (10th century); Halparutiya I (10th century); Muwazali-Mutali/Arbun (9th century); Halparutiya II (9th century); Larazamasa II – Palalam/P’aŗock (9th century); Halparutiya III/Hrant (9th-8th centuries); Tarkulara (8th century); Mutalu (8th century, the last king dethroned by Sargon II of Assyria 712-711 BC).

3. Kingdom of Melid (Malatya) starts in 9th century BC. Shakhu/Shara (9th century); Khelaruada/Vstamkar (8th century); Sulumal/Gełama (8th century, dethroned by Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria 732 BC); Gunzinanu/Əndzak (8th century); Tarkunazi/Tork’ Angeł (dethroned by Sargon II of Assyria 712 BC); Mugalu/Mshak (7th century); ...ussi/Anushawan (7th century)

4. The kingdom of Kummukh (Commagene) starts in the 9th century BC. Qatazilu/Ampak (first half of 9th century); Kundashpi/Vashtak (9th century); Queen Panamuwatis and her Hurrian husband Suppiluliumas – Ushpilulume (9th-8th centuries); Kushtashpi/Shavarsh (8th century); Mutalu (8th century, dethroned by Sargon II of Assyria in 708 BC).

5. The kingdom of Tabal starts in the 9th century BC. Tuate (9th century); Kikki/Sisak, son of Tuate (9th century); Tuwatis/Aramayis (8th century, died in a plague c. 770 BC. His prime minister was known as Ruwas); Wasusaramimasa/Harma (8th century, dethroned by Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria 730 BC); Khuly/Khoy (8th century); Ambaris/P’arnak (8th century, dethroned by Sargon II of Assyria in 713 BC); Ishkallu (7th century); Mugalu/Mshak and his son ...ussi/Anushawan, as in Melid.

6. Several city kingdoms developed to the west of Tabal; some left inscriptions in addition to being recorded in the History of the Armenians by Khorenats’i. For that reason, in addition to the kings' names, the place names of their kingdoms are also listed: Pukhame of Khubishna (9th century); Warpalawa – Urballa/Arbak of Tukhana (8th century); Uirime/Perj of Khubishna (8th century); Ushkhiti of Atuna (8th century); Tukhame of Ishtunda (8th century); Kiaki/Głak of Shinukhtu (8th century); Kurti/Kornak of Atuna (8th century); Hurakhara of Porsuk (end 8th century); Panuna of Kululu (end 8th century); Tarkhuna of Bolkarmaden (end 8th century); Sapi of Karaburna; Gurti/Goŗak of Til-garimmu (7th century).

7. This section contains the names of the Cilician kings, mainly from Cilicia Tracheia: Pikhirim/P’arnavaz of Khilakku (9th century); Kate of Que (9th century); Kirri of Que (9th century); Tulli of Tanakun (9th century); Azatiwata/Norayr regent of Adana (8th century); Kirua of Illubru (7th century); Sanduarri/Aŗnak of Sissu and Kundu (7th century); Sandasarme/Hrachia of Khilakku (7th century); Syennesis/Pajuyj of Cilicia (end 7th early 6th centuries); Apuwashu/Baos of Pirindu (6th century).

8. The last two names belong to Kinalua of Unqi on the Orontes River in present-day Syria. Only the two names recorded in the History of the Armenians are listed, although the explanation of the names makes it clear that there were more numerous Proto-Armenian kings, such as Lubarna I and II, a Khalparutiya, etc. Surri/Sur of Kinalua (9th century); Kulani/Ts’olak of Kinalue (9th century).

While in the country of Aram, the Proto-Armenians fought three decisive wars. Of these wars, the first and the second were fought simultaneously in the north (Tabal) by Wasusaramimasa against Bar-ga’ya of KTK and the south (Carchemish) by Kamana against Mati’ilu of Arpat. The third war against Assyria was fought in Commagene by Eshpai (Hayk) of Zapkaka (the later Kiaka), when the Assyrian king, Sargon II, was killed. All three of these wars are recounted in the History of the Armenians by Moves Khorenats’i, written during the second half of the 5th century AD.

[Petros Agapetos]

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[Petros Agapetos]

How the Turkish Jihadis overran the homeland of the Armenians and occupied it (present day Eastern Turkey) and massacred the Armenian Christians in COld Blood right up to the 20th century!

The Muslim (Ottoman) Tyranny against the Armenians

Like the Jewish people, the Armenians were another community that has suffered genocide in horrendous proportions. While The Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis, the Armenians suffered at the hands of the Ottomans.

Among the various genocides carried out by the Muslims, that against the Armenian Christians is the most unreported and neglected. The Turks slaughtered millions of Armenians in Cold Blood in the ten centuries that they tyrannized Armenia from the year 1071 till 1920.

While the Ottoman Empire was in existence from 1300 (up to 1923), the Armenians had come under the Turkish yoke three centuries before that in 1071. In that year the Seljuk Turks had defeated the Byzantines at the battle of Manzikert and overrun the Armenian provinces of the Byzantine Empire. All through this period it in spurts the Turks carried out the Armenian Genocide.

Armenia was ruled by Muslim Turks headed by the sultanate of the Osmanli/Ottoman dynasty. Following the prescriptions of the Quran, the Ottoman state, variously called Turkey or the Turkish Empire, was governed according to Islamic law which relegated non-Muslims to second class status as Dhimmis (or Zimmis) by denying them basic civil rights and requiring them to pay penal taxes. This discriminatory system was institutionalized through the so-called millat (community) system which deprived them from all forms of political participation and basic human rights.

The major portion of the Armenian population of the Middle East came under Ottoman rule after the conquest of Cilicia by the Seljuk Turks in 1071 that was a consequence of the Battle of Manzikert. This battle was followed by the occupation of the rest of Armenia by the successors to the Seljuk Turks - the Ottoman Turks. This process of occupation went on up to the thirteenth century.

As part of their Jihad against the Christians, the Ottomans encouraged the unlawful transfer of property, the dispossession of the rural Armenian population and compelled their emigration from their homeland. In this the Turks (as do other Muslims) took inspiration and justification from the Quran and what Muslim theologians had to say on the methods of tyrannizing non-Muslims (Dhimmis) under Muslim tyranny.

[Petros Agapetos]

Under repeated massacres and unrelenting Ottoman tyranny, many Armenians were compelled to embrace Islam at the pain of death, hence the former southern provinces of Armenia that include Van, Bitlis, Erzerum, Kharpert, Sivas, Trebizond, Konya, Kayseri, Adana, Izmir, Bursa, Edirne became Muslim majority provinces, that were eventually absorbed by Turkey.

Muslim theologians on tyrannizing Dhimmis (non-Muslim subjects) under Muslim occupation

Al-Ghazali (d. 1111), the famous theologian, philosopher, and paragon of mystical Sufism wrote the following about jihad: Everyone must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year...one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them...If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book - Jews and Christians, typically] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked, and his wife becomes the rightful property of a Muslim.One may cut down their trees...One must destroy their useless books. Jihadis may take as booty whatever they decide...the Jihadis may steal as much food as they need..."

[Petros Agapetos]

Hamidian autocracy also fostered the clandestine Young Turk movement dedicated to the cause of overthrowing the despotic sultan. But nevertheless even the Young Turks though opponents of the Ottoman Sultan, had an equal measure of hatred towards the Armenian. Like the Sultans, the Young Turks massacred the Armenians with equal brutality, and with no less cruelty and savagery as did the Sultans.

Ethnic Cleansing of Armenians by the Ottomans

The decline of Ottoman Turkish power and the steady territorial losses in the face of Balkan revolts and Russian military advances isolated the Armenian Christians in a precarious situation. To firmly secure and perpetuate Turkish rule in the remaining territories of the Ottoman state, the Ottoman Sultan Abdul-Hamid initiated a program of ethnic cleansing through the mass slaughter of vast numbers of Armenians beginning in 1894.

In spite of international condemnation, and despite changes in government, these obnoxious policies started by Sultan Abdul-Hamid were applied with regularity over the course of the next thirty years. In a series of genocidal massacres repeated in 1895-1896, 1909, 1915-1918, and 1920-1922, the Armenian population of Turkey was mercilessly annihilated.

These massacres of the Armenians, also called Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896 affected all of historic Armenia and Constantinople. The 1909 or Adana massacre devastated Cilicia. The combined deportations and massacres during World War I acquired the dimensions of a total genocide and was implemented by the Young Turks who had removed Abdul-Hamid from the throne in 1909.
So irrespective of who the rulers of the Ottomans was, the genocide of the non-Muslim Armenians continued relentlessly.

[Petros Agapetos]

Turkey's defeat in WW1 led to the exposure of the atrocities on Armenians

Most of these massacres were carried out with impunity and the majority of these Turkish criminal offenders escaped prosecution. Only in the aftermath of Turkey's defeat in World War I, through a series of military tribunals and parliamentarian investigations convened between 1919 and 1921 in Constantinople, the covert planning, secret organization, and brutal implementation of policies designed to destroy the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire were uncovered.

The evidence was presented in court-martials and guilty verdicts were handed down by the thousands, confirming the mass scale state-sponsored policy of extermination of the Armenians.

[Petros Agapetos]

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[Petros Agapetos]

In 1915 Armenians lived in all the major cities of the Ottoman Empire, Van, Bitlis, Erzerum, Kharpert, Sivas, Trebizond, Konya, Kayseri, Adana, Izmir, Bursa, Edirne, and many others. But after systematic genocides, by 1923 the Armenian population of Turkey had been reduced only to those living in Constantinople. Armenians had participated in all aspects of Ottoman life and had made major contributions to Turkish commerce, industry, architecture, and even music. Yet, in the final analysis, the centuries of Turkish rule resulted in the utter ruin of historic Armenia, the expulsion of the Armenians from Asiatic Turkey and the permanent exile of surviving Armenians only in mountainous regions of the Kavkaz (Caucasus).

The net effect of the Ottoman era is summed up in the violent transformation of historic Armenia into Turkey. Thus what was once the homeland of Armenians from antiquity ruled by Armenian kings and chieftains from the sixth century B.C.E. till 1071, was finally purged of almost the entire Armenian population and was merged into Turkey. What is today Armenia is only one fourth of the north eastern part of historic Armenia.

[Petros Agapetos]

What do you think of Armenian history, culture, and society?

[Petros Agapetos]

What do you think of our country and its people?

[Petros Agapetos]

up

[Shah-Jehan]

the people look cute

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=17391&dateline=1480620915

[Petros Agapetos]

Would you support immigration of Armenians into your country?

[adsız]

Would you support immigration of Armenians into your country?

Turkey has more than 100,000 armenian migrants working without permit. Illegal immigration should be stopped. They are low class people with little education and tending to committing crimes. Some time ago, One of them killed an old lady, another armenian living alone in Turkey


http://i.tmgrup.com.tr/dailysabah/2015/04/24/1429899729874.jpg
Arriving here 13 years ago, a woman named Heriknaz Avagyan is one of around 100,000 Armenians living in Turkey. After getting married to a Turkish citizen of Armenian origin, she was eligible for citizenship. She said her heart was full of fear of and hatred for Turks at the beginning.

"When I was heading to Turkey, I was full of hatred and fear of Turks. I was young and easily affected by what I had been told up to that time. However, when I started to live here and meet Turks, my thoughts completely changed. I realized that hatred was no good, nor was judging people based on their nations. Besides, there is no point in blaming Turks now for what happened 100 years ago," she said.

Most Armenians come to Turkey because of economic problems in Armenia. Even after graduating from a reputable university, they have difficulty finding a financially satisfying job. The fact that Turkey has a more stable economy and is not far away from Armenia, and if there are already relatives living here it makes Turkey appealing for Armenian migrants.

Avagyan said the number of illegal Armenian workers is quite high. Even though the Armenian community in Turkey and their Turkish neighbors try to help them, there are still problems that remain unsolved.

"It is not easy to illegally live in a country. Their children cannot go to school, they do not have health insurance and they all live on shaky ground. They are quite contented, though," she said.

Eight out of 10 Armenians to whom Daily Sabah talked said they did not face any harassment for being Armenian in Turkey. Quite the contrary, some said they are treated warmly by people who are curious about Armenian culture.

An anonymous woman, the wife of an illegal worker, said she was afraid to come to Turkey at first, but then realized the only challenge was language.

"I feel like I live in my homeland. We can earn money and we have great friends. Well, we still have some problems, but this is the best possible way," she said. She added that Turkish TV series helped her learn Turkish the most.

For MORE: http://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2015/04/24/amid-political-disputes-illegal-armenian-migrants-in-turkey-hope-for-peace

[Arsen_]

Turkey has more than 100,000 armenian migrants working without permit..

Not true.

By the way it was Erdogan who first bubbled that utter bullshit about "100.000 illegal Armenian immigrants" in Turkey. But after that fantastic bullshit the National Institute of Statistiqs of Turkey gave data that since Armenia's independence less than ten thousand Armenian citizens moved in Turkey. Moreover majority of that Armenian citizens left Turkey due to Turkish laws which hamper education of children in Armenian schools.

It is really funny when a Turk pretends to portray his country as anything attractive to immigrants.

For example, the Russian government has opened its agencies in Armenia and sent representatives of the Russian Federal Migration Service and recruit Armenian migrants for moving in Russia, paying their way, giving large sums to purchase housing etc.

[Armenian Bishop]

The Armenians and their lands

Armenians call themselves Hay (pl. Hayk’) and their country Hayastan.[2] The Armenians have called themselves also Aramean Azg (Nation of Aram), T’orkomean Azg (Nation of Togarmah), Haykazean Azg (Nation of Hayk) and Askanazean Azg (Nation of Askanaza); the latter is an anachronism, since in the Bible 'Askanaz' represents the Scythians. The term 'Armenian', when it was created in the 3rd millennium BC, originally denoted the Hay people.

The country representing Armenia, the highlands to the east of peninsular Anatolia, was the previous Kingdom of Ararat. The borders of Armenia have changed so often that one can only give a rough description of it, such as: to the east up to the confluence of the rivers Kur and Araxes, to the south River Araxes, south of the Kashiari range of mountains up to Nisibis (Mtsbin), to the west the River Euphrates and to the north the Pontus range of mountains, the southern plains of Georgia and the Kur river.

The Hays (Proto-Armenians) are mentioned, for the first time, in the Hittite inscriptions as Hayasa. The hieroglyphic inscriptions of the Proto-Armenians contain some ancient discarded and forgotten words which still have their exact parallels in Germanic languages such as English: sore = Proto-Armenian sor, tap = tap’, ire = ira, door = dur, mass = mas, daddy = tati, tie = ti, day = ti, bit = pih, cwēn = kin, negative prefix un = an, etc. But the English words quoted are the result of many years of development which had different phonetics in the past.

Consequently, we are left with a single name, a name of unique importance.The ancient Armenian god Tir, also known as Tīw and Tiwaz, was only known to the Hays of Armenia. In Armenia Tir was the supreme god, but under the hegemony of the Achaemenids, Ahura Mazta (Aramazd) became supreme and Tir his scribe, defender of arts and letters and god of oracles and dreams. No other nation besides the Armenians have such a god.

It's good that you provide us with this kind of high quality text, from diligent work, and scholarship.

I will like to see more of it, but please add a link to it, either above, or below it, so that we can find the original source material, for more information. I think it's important to let us know where you found it, even though it serves as a personal representation of your viewpoint.

[adsız]

By the way it was Erdogan who first bubbled that utter bullshit about "100.000 illegal Armenian immigrants" in Turkey. But after that fantastic bullshit the National Institute of Statistiqs of Turkey gave data that since Armenia's independence less than ten thousand Armenian citizens moved in Turkey. Moreover majority of that Armenian citizens left Turkey due to Turkish laws which hamper education of children in Armenian schools.
.

I have not seen that statistical survey. Would you mind giving me the link to? It may be about the armenians who moved to Turkey "legally" and live in since 1992...

In 2009, "one of the influential members of the Armenian community" Bedros Şirinoğlu said the number of illegal armenians in Turkey was around 30,000.



An accurate survey about the illegal armenians is not easy to do because neither employer nor employee wants to reveal it because of legal issues. In my opinion, the 100,000 figure is also less then real. Many of illegal armenians hide their identity and pretend Georgian.

[Arsen_]

I have not seen that statistical survey. Would you mind giving me the link to?

It was announsed just after Erdogan's statement. You can easily find that data in internet. I did that in a couple of seconds, for example look at this:

http://rus.azatutyun.am/a/2142238.html

[adsız]

It was announsed just after Erdogan's statement. You can easily find that data in internet. I did that in a couple of seconds, for example look at this:

http://rus.azatutyun.am/a/2142238.html

There is no link in that page to the survey but another armenian giving some numbers about "illegal armenian migrants working in Turkey" which is not proved by an official source... I searched in the National Statistic Foundation Of Turkey but could not find anything related to the subject.

[Petros Agapetos]

What do users here think of Armenia or Armenians? I am curious.

[FinalFlash]

What do users here think of Armenia or Armenians? I am curious.

Nice to have you back

[rein]

What do users here think of Armenia or Armenians? I am curious.

Mostly positive. Many seem to be nice people.