Sicilians-Lebanese genetically closer than Turks-Greeks. Check the GEDmatch calculators.

[Sikeliot]

This is from the "Near East Neolithic K13"

Except for Istanbul Turks, Turks are further from Greeks than Lebanese are from Sicilians.

Greeks:

Epirus:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 5.68
2 Greek 6.33
3 Bulgarian 9.16
4 Sicilian 9.31
5 Italian_South 11.34
6 Romanian 12.7
7 Jew_Ashkenazi 12.89
8 Turkish_Istanbul 16.76
9 Turkish 17.39
10 Croatian 17.57
11 French 17.66
12 Jew_Moroccan 18.49
13 Turkish_Balekesir 18.82
14 Hungarian 20.12
15 Sardinian 20.6
16 Turkish_Aydin 20.99
17 Cypriot 21.36
18 Turkish_Adana 22.88
19 Turkish_Kayseri 23.01
20 English 23.41


Macedonia:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.37
2 Sicilian 4.42
3 Albanian 6.08
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.13
5 Italian_South 7.85
6 Bulgarian 9.92
7 Romanian 12.97
8 Jew_Moroccan 13.56
9 Turkish_Istanbul 14.14
10 Turkish 14.76
11 Cypriot 17.32
12 Turkish_Balekesir 17.37
13 Croatian 18.12
14 Jew_Tunisian 18.48
15 Jew_Libyan 18.65
16 Turkish_Aydin 18.68
17 French 19.07
18 Turkish_Adana 19.39
19 Turkish_Kayseri 20.04
20 Hungarian 20.53


Central Greece:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 4.81
2 Greek 5.12
3 Sicilian 7.42
4 Bulgarian 8.64
5 Italian_South 9.65
6 Jew_Ashkenazi 10.99
7 Romanian 12.01
8 Turkish_Istanbul 16.39
9 Turkish 16.94
10 Jew_Moroccan 16.96
11 Croatian 17.18
12 French 17.49
13 Turkish_Balekesir 18.63
14 Hungarian 19.77
15 Cypriot 20.34
16 Sardinian 20.4
17 Turkish_Aydin 20.49
18 Jew_Tunisian 22.09
19 Jew_Libyan 22.12
20 Turkish_Adana 22.29


Peloponnese:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.82
2 Albanian 6.56
3 Sicilian 7.95
4 Bulgarian 8.27
5 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.03
6 Italian_South 9.26
7 Romanian 11.2
8 Turkish_Istanbul 11.83
9 Turkish 13.25
10 Turkish_Balekesir 15.47
11 Croatian 16.09
12 Jew_Moroccan 16.2
13 Turkish_Aydin 17.24
14 French 17.54
15 Hungarian 18.23
16 Turkish_Adana 18.52
17 Turkish_Kayseri 18.99
18 Cypriot 19.07
19 Balkar 19.23
20 Kumyk 19.6


Peloponnese:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 3.58
2 Sicilian 5.61
3 Albanian 5.88
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.67
5 Italian_South 7.11
6 Bulgarian 9.1
7 Romanian 11.85
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.87
9 Turkish 13.99
10 Jew_Moroccan 14.21
11 Turkish_Balekesir 16.29
12 Croatian 16.87
13 Turkish_Aydin 17.81
14 Cypriot 17.83
15 French 18.18
16 Turkish_Adana 18.82
17 Hungarian 19.26
18 Turkish_Kayseri 19.38
19 Jew_Tunisian 19.6
20 Jew_Libyan 19.78


Lakonia:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 5.16
2 Greek 5.18
3 Bulgarian 7.46
4 Sicilian 7.55
5 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.76
6 Italian_South 10.1
7 Romanian 10.55
8 Turkish_Istanbul 14.3
9 Turkish 15.29
10 Croatian 15.65
11 French 16.55
12 Jew_Moroccan 16.6
13 Turkish_Balekesir 17.43
14 Hungarian 17.89
15 Turkish_Aydin 19.18
16 Cypriot 20.11
17 Turkish_Adana 20.69
18 Turkish_Kayseri 21.2
19 English 21.23
20 Jew_Tunisian 21.58



Sicilians:

Messina:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 7.28
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.44
3 Sicilian 8.01
4 Italian_South 8.66
5 Cypriot 8.69
6 Greek 11.61
7 Jew_Tunisian 12.97
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.99
9 Turkish 13.14
10 Jew_Libyan 13.51
11 Turkish_Adana 13.97
12 Turkish_Kayseri 14.49
13 Albanian 14.69
14 Turkish_Balekesir 15.45
15 Lebanese 15.48
16 Turkish_Aydin 15.75
17 Turkish_Trabzon 16.24
18 Druze 17.17
19 Armenian 17.82
20 Syrian 19.19

Messina:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 6.34
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.41
3 Sicilian 6.46
4 Cypriot 8.91
5 Italian_South 9.18
6 Greek 10.52
7 Turkish_Istanbul 12.17
8 Turkish 12.24
9 Jew_Tunisian 12.31
10 Jew_Libyan 12.76
11 Albanian 13.57
12 Turkish_Adana 13.67
13 Turkish_Kayseri 14.18
14 Lebanese 14.99
15 Turkish_Balekesir 15.07
16 Turkish_Aydin 15.35
17 Druze 17.15
18 Turkish_Trabzon 17.19
19 Bulgarian 18.32
20 Armenian 18.4


Catania:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.55
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.83
3 Italian_South 8.23
4 Greek 8.56
5 Jew_Moroccan 9.41
6 Cypriot 10.51
7 Turkish_Istanbul 10.57
8 Turkish 11.12
9 Albanian 11.46
10 Turkish_Adana 13.59
11 Turkish_Balekesir 13.88
12 Turkish_Kayseri 14.06
13 Turkish_Aydin 14.78
14 Jew_Tunisian 14.9
15 Jew_Libyan 15.54
16 Bulgarian 16.35
17 Turkish_Trabzon 16.8
18 Lebanese 16.81
19 Armenian 18.42
20 Druze 18.99



# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.93
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.7
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.14
4 Italian_South 9.46
5 Cypriot 9.58
6 Greek 10.36
7 Turkish_Istanbul 11.39
8 Turkish 11.47
9 Albanian 13.24
10 Turkish_Adana 13.44
11 Turkish_Kayseri 13.79
12 Turkish_Balekesir 13.9
13 Jew_Tunisian 13.91
14 Jew_Libyan 14.48
15 Turkish_Aydin 14.54
16 Lebanese 15.88
17 Turkish_Trabzon 16.59
18 Bulgarian 18.21
19 Druze 18.24
20 Armenian 18.29


Palermo:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.52
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 5.83
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.16
4 Greek 9.64
5 Italian_South 9.86
6 Cypriot 11.63
7 Albanian 12.12
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.18
9 Turkish 12.53
10 Jew_Tunisian 12.85
11 Jew_Libyan 13.13
12 Turkish_Adana 14.74
13 Turkish_Kayseri 15.58
14 Turkish_Balekesir 15.94
15 Bulgarian 16.06
16 Lebanese 16.11
17 Turkish_Aydin 16.24
18 Druze 18.67
19 Romanian 18.97
20 Syrian 19.31



# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 6.22
2 Sicilian 7.81
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 9
4 Cypriot 9.85
5 Jew_Tunisian 11.12
6 Jew_Libyan 11.14
7 Italian_South 12.17
8 Greek 12.59
9 Turkish 14.16
10 Lebanese 14.6
11 Turkish_Istanbul 14.71
12 Albanian 15.03
13 Turkish_Adana 15.45
14 Turkish_Kayseri 15.98
15 Turkish_Aydin 17.07
16 Turkish_Balekesir 17.08
17 Druze 18.1
18 Jordanian 18.21
19 Syrian 18.64
20 Turkish_Trabzon 19.58


# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 4.85
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.69
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.11
4 Greek 9.05
5 Italian_South 9.28
6 Albanian 11.53
7 Cypriot 11.55
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.61
9 Turkish 12.68
10 Jew_Tunisian 13.79
11 Jew_Libyan 13.99
12 Turkish_Balekesir 15.33
13 Turkish_Adana 15.37
14 Turkish_Kayseri 15.84
15 Turkish_Aydin 16.04
16 Bulgarian 16.34
17 Lebanese 16.88
18 Turkish_Trabzon 19.28
19 Romanian 19.55
20 Druze 19.8



Caltanissetta:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 6.33
2 Sicilian 6.99
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.55
4 Cypriot 8.52
5 Jew_Tunisian 10.66
6 Italian_South 10.71
7 Jew_Libyan 11.2
8 Greek 11.95
9 Turkish 12.99
10 Turkish_Istanbul 13.08
11 Turkish_Adana 13.9
12 Lebanese 13.9
13 Albanian 14.45
14 Turkish_Kayseri 14.74
15 Turkish_Balekesir 16.06
16 Turkish_Aydin 16.09
17 Druze 16.99
18 Jordanian 17.82
19 Syrian 18
20 Turkish_Trabzon 18.3


Trapani:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.46
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.48
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.61
4 Greek 9.4
5 Italian_South 10.2
6 Albanian 11.85
7 Cypriot 12.06
8 Turkish 12.61
9 Turkish_Istanbul 12.84
10 Jew_Tunisian 14.06
11 Jew_Libyan 14.15
12 Turkish_Adana 15.46
13 Turkish_Balekesir 15.54
14 Turkish_Kayseri 15.92
15 Turkish_Aydin 16.11
16 Bulgarian 16.26
17 Lebanese 16.89
18 Romanian 19.55
19 Turkish_Trabzon 19.67
20 Druze 19.98

[Sikeliot]

This is for Tooting Carmen who did not believe me. Well, here you go.

[Tooting Carmen]

Once you take the Epirotes out, the difference isn't so big.

[Hadouken]

some of the greeks are closer to turkish than the sicilians are to lebanese . you didnt prove your point :D

[Sikeliot]

some of the greeks are closer to turkish than the sicilians are to lebanese . you didnt prove your point :D

A few but in general it's not so once you remove Istanbul. Anyway let's put it this way: Sicilians are equally close to Lebanese as Greeks-Turks, and are in fact closer genetically to Turks than Greeks are.

[Coolguy1]

Did you use my results? haha

[Profileid]

So obsessive.

[Freeroostah]

Once you take the Epirotes out, the difference isn't so big.

We Epirotes ruin everything :-(

[Sikeliot]

Did you use my results? haha

I may have, not sure. :lol:

[DarknessWin]

Sicilians are true MENA , closer to middle east than Europe.

I am impressed

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians are true MENA , closer to middle east than Europe.

I am impressed

After Central Italy, Greece, and Albania, they are in fact closer to MENAs genetically.

[DarknessWin]

After Central Italy, Greece, and Albania, they are in fact closer to MENAs genetically.

Its the phoenician colonies to Sicily

[Sikeliot]

Its the phoenician colonies to Sicily

I assumed it is lower Indo-European input plus the migration of Hellenized Syrians, Anatolians, and Armenians to Sicily when it was Byzantine ruled.

[Myanthropologies]

What's your point though?

[Myanthropologies]

After Central Italy, Greece, and Albania, they are in fact closer to MENAs genetically.

If you're genetically closer to Albanians than to Middle Easterners then you're not Middle Eastern. Sicilians are not Middle Eastern, but Ashkenazi Jews can say they are because unlike every other ethnicity in Europe, they have only been there for 2500 years, and they share tangible semitic roots with Middle Easterners that IBD tests expose. They also still cluster a bit more southern than the average Sicilian, they cluster with the lower half atypical Sicilians.

The Maltese could probably say they're Middle Easterners if they really wanted to, but Sicilians cannot.

[Sikeliot]

They also still cluster a bit more southern than the average Sicilian, they cluster with the lower half atypical Sicilians.

I am not seeing this on most PCA plots. They usually are exactly overlapping. Sicilians and Ashkenazim form a cluster of their own whereas Greeks, Albanians, and other Italians (apart from far southerners) are in their own.

I do not consider any of these groups Middle Eastern.

[Argentano]

First 3 matches after removing sicilian and jews (because a jew can be anything)

Sicilians:

Messina:

# Population (source) Distance
4 Italian_South 8.66
5 Cypriot 8.69
6 Greek 11.61

Messina:

# Population (source) Distance
4 Cypriot 8.91
5 Italian_South 9.18
6 Greek 10.52




Catania:

# Population (source) Distance
3 Italian_South 8.23
4 Greek 8.56
6 Cypriot 10.51



# Population (source) Distance
4 Italian_South 9.46
5 Cypriot 9.58
6 Greek 10.36


Palermo:

# Population (source) Distance
4 Greek 9.64
5 Italian_South 9.86
6 Cypriot 11.63



# Population (source) Distance
4 Cypriot 9.85
7 Italian_South 12.17
8 Greek 12.59


# Population (source) Distance
4 Greek 9.05
5 Italian_South 9.28
6 Albanian 11.53



Caltanissetta:

# Population (source) Distance
4 Cypriot 8.52
6 Italian_South 10.71
8 Greek 11.95


Trapani:

# Population (source) Distance
4 Greek 9.4
5 Italian_South 10.2
6 Albanian 11.85

As far as i know this are all european matches. Whats the big deal?

[Myanthropologies]

I am not seeing this on most PCA plots. They usually are exactly overlapping. Sicilians and Ashkenazim form a cluster of their own whereas Greeks, Albanians, and other Italians (apart from far southerners) are in their own.

I do not consider any of these groups Middle Eastern.

I don't necessarily consider Ashkenazi Middle Eastern, but I don't consider them European. They are very different from Europeans. Name me a group of indigenous Europeans that have only been in Europe for 2500 years, or one that came from the Middle East so recently. Ashkenazis have close genetic relations to the Middle East in the way that no other European group has. Maybe we can consider them "white," but definitely not Europeans.

On those oracles you posted where Sicilians were getting Arabs and Bedouins, a shitload of them came up as Ashkenazi Jewish first and before Sicilian, so it means Askhenazis don't firmly cluster with the average Sicilian, but they cluster with the southernmost shifted ones.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.

[Sikeliot]

As far as i know this are all european matches. Whats the big deal?

Cypriots aren't. Anyway it is not a big deal.

[The Blade]

Not surprised at all. It's evident and logical. I have said this before, too.
Also, there are more Turks (than Sicilians) who pass as Bulgarian.

[Numidia]

After Central Italy, Greece, and Albania, they are in fact closer to MENAs genetically.


Its the phoenician colonies to Sicily

No sicilians are close to italians
Phoenicians are not lebanese and the true and last one were mostly located in north tunisia
If you read books you would know that sicilians were enslaved in Levant during ottomans and omeyyades rule

[Hudayar]

That's actually not surprising. We, Turks, have nothing to do with Europeans at all. We're predominantly West-Asian with some East-Eurasian admixture. Anyone, including Turks, who thinks that we're European or associate us with Europeans is delusional.

[Sikeliot]

That's actually not surprising. We, Turks, have nothing to do with Europeans at all. We're predominantly West-Asian with some East-Eurasian admixture. Anyone, including Turks, who thinks that we're European or associate us with Europeans is delusional.

Turks do have Greek and other Balkan DNA, but the difference is Balkanites have the NE European elements and West Med.

[kleenex]

I find it odd that Greeks get Turks as a closer population than Cyprus and no Lebanese at all. Is it the Caucasus element?

[Tauromachos]

Turks do have Greek and other Balkan DNA, but the difference is Balkanites have the NE European elements and West Med.

No the real difference is that Turks have besides common or similar DNA they may share with Greeks and their native Anatolian/West Asian part much more other stuff like native Turkoman DNA,Central Asian e.c.t of which Greeks have almost nothing

[Tauromachos]

I find it odd that Greeks get Turks as a closer population than Cyprus and no Lebanese at all. Is it the Caucasus element?

Thats indeed odd
According to Triandafilidis research Cyprus is closer to Greeks than Turks are

[Sizzo]

Sicilians are Jews, Sicilians are Phoenicians, Sicilians are Levantines, Sicilians are MENAs, Sicilians are not Europeans... Which is the recondite purpose of these kind of threads? Selling Sicilians as dirty mongrels?

[MercifulServant]

Why the fuck are you so dedicated to connecting Sicilians with middle eastern people

[Lavrentis]

Greeks are not genetically close to Turks anyway, it's only Anatolian Greeks who are close to Turks.

[Lavrentis]

Once you take the Epirotes out, the difference isn't so big.

And once you take the Anatolian Greeks out of the equation, Greeks will not be close to Turks either.

[Tauromachos]

And once you take the Anatolian Greeks out of the equation, Greeks will not be close to Turks either.

Wrong

[Sikeliot]

Why the fuck are you so dedicated to connecting Sicilians with middle eastern people

Because genetically there is a connection? What is it to you, you have no stake in the discussion.

[Sikeliot]

I find it odd that Greeks get Turks as a closer population than Cyprus and no Lebanese at all. Is it the Caucasus element?

Greeks do not have the SW Asian component or a real connection to the Levant but they do have elevated Caucasian admixture (as do all southeastern Europeans, but Greeks are more southern-shifted than most other Balkanites).

Anyway I made the thread because the user Tooting Carmen claimed the opposite -- that Greeks are closer to Turks than Sicilians to Lebanese and I was showing him it is not true.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians are Jews, Sicilians are Phoenicians, Sicilians are Levantines, Sicilians are MENAs, Sicilians are not Europeans... Which is the recondite purpose of these kind of threads? Selling Sicilians as dirty mongrels?

They are southeastern Europeans with significant Near Eastern input.

[caviezel]

what's the point of discussing those things here when you can troll Racial Reality?

[Sizzo]

They are southeastern Europeans with significant Near Eastern input.

Ancient Near Eastern...

[Sikeliot]

Ancient Near Eastern...

Levantines have not changed much in the last 3000 years, see the study on Canaanite DNA. And we have no proof of when exactly the Near Eastern admixture arrived.

[Sizzo]

Levantines have not changed much in the last 3000 years, see the study on Canaanite DNA. And we have no proof of when exactly the Near Eastern admixture arrived.

So do you think that only Sicily/South Italy, in the Mediterranean, has received this MENA wave? No impact on other places? I've said ancient because I doubt it arrived after the proto-historic time. I still think the southern MENA as an ancient token from eastern Mediterranean, stronger than other place like Greece because there were several IE waves, from Hellenes and Dorians to Slavs in the north.

[Tacitus]

So do you think that only Sicily/South Italy, in the Mediterranean, has received this MENA wave? No impact on other places? I've said ancient because I doubt it arrived after the proto-historic time. I still think the southern MENA as an ancient token from eastern Mediterranean, stronger than other place like Greece because there were several IE waves, from Hellenes and Dorians to Slavs in the north.

Sizzo has a point here, it's probably less diluted in southern Italy compared to Greeks given what we know about prehistoric/historic migration patterns. Also, there is evidence from studies that it is in fact an ancient element; Sarno et al (2017) referred to it as a Bronze Age "Caucaso-Levant" element, possibly similar to the Anatolian Bronze Age sample from the paper on the Mycenaeans. Additionally, there is the Ralph and Coop study from 2013 that stated that Italy has largely remained genetically stable for the past ~2500 years, save for sharing some common ancestors with the Balkans within the past 1500 years.

[Sikeliot]

So do you think that only Sicily/South Italy, in the Mediterranean, has received this MENA wave? No impact on other places? I've said ancient because I doubt it arrived after the proto-historic time. I still think the southern MENA as an ancient token from eastern Mediterranean, stronger than other place like Greece because there were several IE waves, from Hellenes and Dorians to Slavs in the north.


Sizzo has a point here, it's probably less diluted in southern Italy compared to Greeks given what we know about prehistoric/historic migration patterns. Also, there is evidence from studies that it is in fact an ancient element; Sarno et al (2017) referred to it as a Bronze Age "Caucaso-Levant" element, possibly similar to the Anatolian Bronze Age sample from the paper on the Mycenaeans. Additionally, there is the Ralph and Coop study from 2013 that stated that Italy has largely remained genetically stable for the past ~2500 years, save for sharing some common ancestors with the Balkans within the past 1500 years.


So what you mean to say is that the Balkans would have been similar to Sicily today if not for Doric Greeks, Slavs, etc, and the lack of other comparable groups in Europe to Sicilians today gives the false impression they are heavily MENA. Is this what you mean?

If so, this means the most "MENA" like Sicilians are the most unchanged.

[Sizzo]

I think that the MENA in Sicilians and other Southern Italians is not from a recent migration towards Italy but from a greater conservation of Neolithic genes, in comparison with other places.
South Italy is really isolated, so conservative, and little influenced by continental genes. Not only the Alps but also the Italian seas make a genetic barrier, plus the combined action of a very strong endogamy typical of the South.

[Teucer]

So do you think that only Sicily/South Italy, in the Mediterranean, has received this MENA wave? No impact on other places? I've said ancient because I doubt it arrived after the proto-historic time. I still think the southern MENA as an ancient token from eastern Mediterranean, stronger than other place like Greece because there were several IE waves, from Hellenes and Dorians to Slavs in the north.

Which ethnic group today do you think are comparable to the Dorians? They must have been close in proximity to Hellenic tribes since they spoke a dialect of Greek.

[Sikeliot]

I think that the MENA in Sicilians and other Southern Italians is not from a recent migration towards Italy but from a greater conservation of Neolithic genes, in comparison with other places.
South Italy is really isolated, so conservative, and little influenced by continental genes. Not only the Alps but also the Italian seas make a genetic barrier, plus the combined action of a very strong endogamy typical of the South.

But if Neolithic tribes were close to Sardinian, then when did the MENA element come?

I do agree with you in southern Italy it tends to be higher in the regions with less Lombard, Norman, and mainland Greek, so that does support your view but it can't *all* be Neolithic in my opinion.

[Bosniensis]

Not all Turks are Turks....

Why is that so complex to understand.

There are Greeks who call themselves Turks.

That's why some Greeks match with "Turks".

Turks and Greeks are not related.

[Sikeliot]

Not all Turks are Turks....

Why is that so complex to understand.

There are Greeks who call themselves Turks.

That's why some Greeks match with "Turks".

Turks and Greeks are not related.


Greeks are related, somewhat, to Anatolian peoples (as are all Balkan and Italian people), but the Turkic and Iranic elements in Turkey are foreign to Greece.

[Tauromachos]

Which ethnic group today do you think are comparable to the Dorians? They must have been close in proximity to Hellenic tribes since they spoke a dialect of Greek.

Dorians as well as all other Hellenic tribes trace their ancestry to one common mythical ancestor Hellen son of Deukalion"a Pelasgian"

In Greek mythology Hellen has 3 sons Aeolus,Xuthus and Dorus

Dorians are said to come from Dorus ,Aeolians from Aeolus,Ionians and Acheans from Ion and Acheus both sons of Hellen's third son Xuthus

All these Greek tribes orginaly dwelled and lived in different parts of todays Greek Mainland.
From there they settled in parts of Southern Italy,Greek Islands,Asia Minor and for that sake also at the shores
of the Adriatic coast"modern day Albania"

The first Greek people in Cyprus were said to have been Achean settlers from Arcadia.
Ancient Cypriot Greek dialect was hence called Arcado-Cypriot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellen

[Sizzo]

But if Neolithic tribes were close to Sardinian, then when did the MENA element come?

I do agree with you in southern Italy it tends to be higher in the regions with less Lombard, Norman, and mainland Greek, so that does support your view but it can't *all* be Neolithic in my opinion.

Sardinia is fully EEF that is a mix of Mesolithic and Neolithic genes. The EEF is stronger even in Northern Italy than Southern Italy. Probably there were 2 different Neolithic waves in Italy: from Danubian area and Balkans in Northern Italy, from eastern Mediterranean in the South. The MENA that pops up on 23andMe, about S. Italians and Sicilians, could be an ancient trace of this kind of Levantine migration. I strongly doubt that Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Jews, Moors - like Normans - have left something concrete, genetically speaking...

[Sizzo]

Which ethnic group today do you think are comparable to the Dorians? They must have been close in proximity to Hellenic tribes since they spoke a dialect of Greek.

The Hellenes were Ionians, Aeolians and Achaeans; the Dorians came later, from the north. Their impact was probably stronger in the Peloponnese and NE Greece, but there's something also in SE Sicily and Rhodes.

[Tauromachos]

The Hellenes were Ionians, Aeolians and Achaeans; the Dorians came later, from the north. Their impact was probably stronger in the Peloponnese and NE Greece, but there's something also in SE Sicily and Rhodes.

No they were Hellenic as the other tribes ,you are completly ignoring the links i posted about the genealogy of ancient Greeks
and how Hellenic was defined by ancient Greeks themselfes.

What means North?
Norway?Russia?Caucasus?

Or maybe just Greece North of Peloponnese..

Think about it..?

[Kouros]

Thats indeed odd
According to Triandafilidis research Cyprus is closer to Greeks than Turks are

They are lol. Look at any PCA plot, a few Greek samples always gets pulled back to Cyprus while Turkey is almost completely isolated. The few that get pulled to European cluster are just Turkish balkanites.


No the real difference is that Turks have besides common or similar DNA they may share with Greeks and their native Anatolian/West Asian part much more other stuff like native Turkoman DNA,Central Asian e.c.t of which Greeks have almost nothing

Yeah. Sometimes people confuse 'Turkic' with 'Turkish', it's not the same thing. All this is saying is that the two have some kind of common origin like you said whether it is Balkan, Slavic, Greek, Anatolian, or in fact Turkic. Turkey is diverse as hell so it's expected you get these results. And I don't think Turks have any west Asian, it's just Anatolian.

[Tauromachos]

Yeah. Sometimes people confuse 'Turkic' with 'Turkish', it's not the same thing. All this is saying is that the two have some kind of common origin like you said whether it is Balkan, Slavic, Greek, Anatolian, or in fact Turkic. Turkey is diverse as hell so it's expected you get these results. And I don't think Turks have any west Asian, it's just Anatolian.


As is said i guess they have a significant amount of native Anatolian and other stuff like Greek and Balkan,Caucusus.

The difference to Greeks but even Armenians for that matter is that they have extra Turkic and Turanid and Central Asian things on top of that and also more Iranic probably
This would be my guess.

To the Levant they are not realy close i think..

[Kouros]

Which ethnic group today do you think are comparable to the Dorians? They must have been close in proximity to Hellenic tribes since they spoke a dialect of Greek.

They were Hellenes. We don't know. Achaeans, Ionians, and Aeolians were like most modern day Italians and Greeks. Dorians were probably similar to Ionians with additional Yamna. Lighter hair, and lighter complexion, more light eyes.

The myth that follows the Dorian invasion is 'the return of the Heraclidae (offspring of Heracles)'. The myth says that after Heracles died his descendants were exiled from Peloponnese and after taking refuge in multiple regions the Oracle of Delphi instructed them how to reclaim their land. By this myth the Dorians were once rulers of the Peloponnese.

I don't think it's entirely true though. I think Dorian dialect may have been closer to Thraco-Illyrian (specifically Illyrian) and I think they were of a different tribe from these rulers.

Heracles was worshiped in Greece and the levant for thousands of years before proto-indo-European languages even existed in Europe. I don't get how these Dorians can claim descend from a man like this...

[Tauromachos]

They were Hellenes. We don't know. Achaeans, Ionians, and Aeolians were like most modern day Italians and Greeks. Dorians were probably similar to Ionians with additional Yamna. Lighter hair, and lighter complexion, more light eyes.

Its just speculation..
Might or might not...



The myth that follows the Dorian invasion is 'the return of the Heraclidae (offspring of Heracles)'. The myth says that after Heracles died his descendants were exiled from Peloponnese and after taking refuge in multiple regions the Oracle of Delphi instructed them how to reclaim their land. By this myth the Dorians were once rulers of the Peloponnese.

I don't think it's entirely true though. I think Dorian dialect may have been closer to Thraco-Illyrian (specifically Illyrian) and I think they were of a different tribe from these rulers.

And why Illyrian?
What was the original Illyrian dialect?
Do you have some examples?Sources?

[Sizzo]

No they were Hellenic as the other tribes ,you are completly ignoring the links i posted about the genealogy of ancient Greeks
and how Hellenic was defined by ancient Greeks themselfes.

What means North?
Norway?Russia?Caucasus?

Or maybe just Greece North of Peloponnese..

Think about it..?

Dear troll, I don't need to read your link: Dorians came after the other 3 tribes. It's well-known. North = north of Greece, from the Balkans, but they were probably native of Central-Eastern Europe like the Celts.

[Tauromachos]

Dear troll, I don't need to read your link: Dorians came after the other 3 tribes. It's well-known. North = north of Greece, from the Balkans, but they were probably native of Central-Eastern Europe like the Celts.

You are the Troll

Well known ?
From whom?
Who claims this?
Give names and Sources

[Sizzo]

You are the Troll

Well known ?
From whom?
Who claims this?
Give names and Sources

The collapse of Mycenaeans was caused by them (see Greek Dark Ages). They were not properly Hellenic like the other three; probably you are against the migrationist theory, but traditionally (you could read Francisco Villar, for example) Dorians came from the Balkans (but they weren't native of there, their cradle was more likely in Central-European Urnfield context) as invaders with iron weapons and incineration rites.

[MINARDOWICZ]

If you're genetically closer to Albanians than to Middle Easterners then you're not Middle Eastern. Sicilians are not Middle Eastern, but Ashkenazi Jews can say they are because unlike every other ethnicity in Europe, they have only been there for 2500 years, and they share tangible semitic roots with Middle Easterners that IBD tests expose. They also still cluster a bit more southern than the average Sicilian, they cluster with the lower half atypical Sicilians.

The Maltese could probably say they're Middle Easterners if they really wanted to, but Sicilians cannot.

So, you are the all-knowing gatekeeper of ethnicities that makes small distinctions? Good to know ;)

The difference between Sicilians and Maltese is SO minor, you just look like an idiot making this comment. In fact, the most mena sample in Europe is NOT Ashkenazi or Maltese, but people from Lampedusa, Sicily. Trust me... Results are hard to come by but have SUPER high N African input even on 23nme (7-10%).

[Kouros]

Its just speculation..
Might or might not...



And why Illyrian?
What was the original Illyrian dialect?
Do you have some examples?Sources?

Herodotus said they were Illyrian tribes. I don't trust that they were specifically Illyrian but I believe they came from somewhere in the balkans and not north/central Europe like most people say. If they really held Heracles in such high regard than it's impossible that they came from central Europe, because central Europeans didn't worship Heracles. Heracles is not an indo-European God or hero, he is neolithic in origin like a lot of Greek gods. It doesn't make sense that they would worship him if they were fully Aryan in race and not merely just Aryanized.

I don't think any other indo-European religion has as many female deities as does the Greek pantheon. This is a clear allusion to the pre-'European' matriarchal worship that was part of European neolithic cultures and Minoan civilization.

[Tauromachos]

The collapse of Mycenaeans was caused by them (see Greek Dark Ages). They were not properly Hellenic like the other three; probably you are against the migrationist theory, but traditionally (you could read Francisco Villar, for example) Dorians came from the Balkans (but they weren't native of there, their cradle was more likely in Central-European Urnfield context) as invaders with iron weapons and incineration rites.

How do you explain that all modern Greeks share still at least 70% of common ancestry with the Mycanean population of Greece when what you claimed is
supposed to be true.

Why did Spartan kings have Greek names like Argesilaos,Cleomenis,Lysandros or Anaxandridas"as-doric version of -is Anaxandridis in Ionian" and not Slavko Duric,Sawn McNeil,Gerd Muller or Arberoeri...?

Why did Dorian kings trace their lineage back to Heraklis a Mycannean Greek Hero?
Why was studying the ancient Greek epic texts of Homer an obligatory part of a Greek youths education,even in Sparta?

Why did all Dorian city states participate in the Pan-Greek Olympic games together with all other Hellenes?

Why didn't all non Dorian Greeks such as Athenians and many others unite and drive the Dorians out if they were realy Non-Greek foreign invadors as
they did with the Persians for example..?

[Kouros]

their cradle was more likely in Central-European Urnfield context

Everybody's cradle was in central Europe... if we go far back enough it was in Asia even... read the post I made above. If the Dorians of the Dorian invasion were closer to central-Europeans then other balkan groups they wouldn't take the moniker of Hericladae. They must have resided in the balkans for a long time to adopt a hero like that and hold him in such high regard. That, or the myth is true, and they are the just Hellenes that we're exiled and resided in modern day Macedonia before they returned.

The Spartans claimed to have come from Macedonia, not central Europe.

[Kouros]

Why didn't all non Dorian Greeks such as Athenians and many others unite and drive the Dorians out if they were realy Non-Greek foreign invadors as
they did with the Persians for example..?

They did though, this was the Peloponnese war.

[Sizzo]

Everybody's cradle was in central Europe... if we go far back enough it was in Asia even... read the post I made above. If the Dorians of the Dorian invasion were closer to central-Europeans then other balkan groups they wouldn't take the moniker of Hericladae. They must have resided in the balkans for a long time to adopt a hero like that and hold him in such high regard. That, or the myth is true, and they are the just Hellenes that we're exiled and resided in modern day Macedonia before they returned.

The Spartans claimed to have come from Macedonia, not central Europe.

What I mean is that Dorians weren't properly related with the 3 classical Hellenic tribes; their remote origin could be Central-European but they didn't arrived in Greece from modern day Mitteleuropa. Yes, they were probably concentrated in Macedonia or whatever, just north to Greece. But they were unrelated to Mycenaean Greece.

[Tauromachos]

Herodotus said they were Illyrian tribes.
Ok...

He also said in other texts they were returning Heraklids he says in some passage that the so-called Dorian invadors in Sparta were in fact veterans from
the Trojan war who after returning to the Polis found themselfes thrown over and cheated depraved of their former status by kinsmen who did stay and took over during the time of their absence
they were eventually driven out further till the Pindus Mountains and Makedonia and after they assembled some strength returned and took over the Polis again,in revenge they turned the other Greeks there into slave.
Of course this is alos only speculation by Herodotus but he mentions this theory as well...

It also remains to show what Illyrians actually where..?
Perhabs the original Dorians were nothing else but proper Hellenic but Illyrians themselfes were a part which split of from Dorians and became more
Northern...




I don't trust that they were specifically Illyrian but I believe they came from somewhere in the balkans and not north/central Europe like most people say. If they really held Heracles in such high regard than it's impossible that they came from central Europe, because central Europeans didn't worship Heracles. Heracles is not an indo-European God or hero, he is neolithic in origin like a lot of Greek gods.

Exactly



I don't think any other indo-European religion has as many female deities as does the Greek pantheon. This is a clear allusion to the pre-'European' matriarchal worship that was part of European neolithic cultures and Minoan civilization.

Good point

[Sizzo]

How do you explain that all modern Greeks share still at least 70% of common ancestry with the Mycanean population of Greece when what you claimed is
supposed to be true.

Why did Spartan kings have Greek names like Argesilaos,Cleomenis,Lysandros or Anaxandridas"as-doric version of -is Anaxandridis in Ionian" and not Slavko Duric,Sawn McNeil,Gerd Muller or Arberoeri...?

Why did Dorian kings trace their lineage back to Heraklis a Mycannean Greek Hero?
Why was studying the ancient Greek epic texts of Homer an obligatory part of a Greek youths education,even in Sparta?

Why did all Dorian city states participate in the Pan-Greek Olympic games together with all other Hellenes?

Why didn't all non Dorian Greeks such as Athenians and many others unite and drive the Dorians out if they were realy Non-Greek foreign invadors as
they did with the Persians for example..?

Seems that Mycaeneans were mostly pre-Aryan (genetically speaking) but they still had some Steppe. Even nowadays Greeks, as Italians etc., are mostly Neolithic, not IE. I don't think that Dorians replaced ethnically other ancient Greeks.

Don't mix up mythology, genetics and anthropology; ok, the myths could be a clue but they are a different field in comparison with the other subjects.

Wasn't Sparta an enemy of Athens? Spartans claimed to be descendants of the Dorians.

[Tauromachos]

They did though, this was the Peloponnese war.

This was much later after their arrival..

Greeks always fought each other
In some conflicts some Ionians"such as Samos" that where usualy more allied with Athens even supported Sparta.

And as i said there was one real incidence were a foreign people wanted to invade Greece.
It was the Persians and in this war Athanians and Spartans united and fought together against them.
Spartans at Thermopylae and Athenians after at the Sea battle of Salamis.

European tribes of further North of Greece were disorganized,anarchic tribal communities they were perhabs brutal and warlike but they were never able to do any kind of
invasion or establish a permanent rulership in Greek lands at the time of the allegedly Dorian invasion.
What they would do is guerillia like attacks take all they can get and then leave..
You can see this even later in Roman history.

In fact Germanics,Celts and others became more influential and powerfull much later when they adopted forms of Greco-Roman type state organisation and
rulership from the Romans

[Tauromachos]

Seems that Mycaeneans were mostly pre-Aryan (genetically speaking) but they still had some Steppe. Even nowadays Greeks, as Italians etc., are mostly Neolithic, not IE. I don't think that Dorians replaced ethnically other ancient Greeks.

Don't mix up mythology, genetics and anthropology; ok, the myths could be a clue but they are a different field in comparison with the other subjects.

Wasn't Sparta an enemy of Athens? Spartans claimed to be descendants of the Dorians.

Weren't British and Germany often enemies in history?
Aren't Jews and Arabs often enemies?
What about several vendettas and blood feuds among people with the same ethnic or racial background over land or diverging interests?
For example Sicilians vs other Sicilians,Albanians vs other Albanians,Arabs vs Arabs..

[Tauromachos]

Seems that Mycaeneans were mostly pre-Aryan (genetically speaking) but they still had some Steppe. Even nowadays Greeks, as Italians etc., are mostly Neolithic, not IE. I don't think that Dorians replaced ethnically other ancient Greeks.

Don't mix up mythology, genetics and anthropology; ok, the myths could be a clue but they are a different field in comparison with the other subjects.

Wasn't Sparta an enemy of Athens? Spartans claimed to be descendants of the Dorians.

Again,what means Aryan?

Can you certainly determine by race or phenotype who is and was Aryan and who not?

Did all Aryans look the same?
Weren't the Persians the first people who called themselfes Aryan and named themselfes as such?

I think your point of view is legal and some things you say can have some truth,though i think it should also be legal to discuss and view things different.

People always throw around words like Aryan,Indo-European,Levantine,Balkan and claim their conceptions about all these things as a matter of fact

[Kouros]

What I mean is that Dorians weren't properly related with the 3 classical Hellenic tribes; their remote origin could be Central-European but they didn't arrived in Greece from modern day Mitteleuropa. Yes, they were probably concentrated in Macedonia or whatever, just north to Greece. But they were unrelated to Mycenaean Greece.

I 100% agree. I just think the myths contradict this.

[Sizzo]

Again,what means Aryan?

Can you certainly determine by race or phenotype who is and was Aryan and who not?

Did all Aryans look the same?
Weren't the Persians the first people who called themselfes Aryan and named themselfes as such?

I think your point of view is legal and some things you say can have some truth,though i think it should also be legal to discuss and view things different.

People always throw around words like Aryan,Indo-European,Levantine,Balkan and claim their conceptions about all these things as a matter of fact

What is an Aryan? Genetically speaking an ancient invader (linguistically PIE-IE) from the Steppes with a Yamnaya/Steppe admixture (also present in Mycaeneans). We're not talking about the nazi concept of Aryans, obviously, but "Arya" was a common epithet amongs IEs, from Ireland to northern India (with the meaning of "the noble one"). The physical appearance of the firts Aryans was probably something like an Eastern Cromagnid, maybe with some proto-Nordid or progressive Mediterranid (Corded) strain; pigmentation was often light because Italics, Celts, Germanic peoples, Hellenes, Dorians, Slavs etc. came from Central-Eastern or sometimes Northern Europe and also because of the need to absorb vitamin D. It's obvious: we inherited only a small part of these Steppe genes because the large majority of the European peoples during the IE invasions was just Aryanized and the real Aryans were a small minority, predominantly warrior/leading class.

[Kouros]

Ok...

He also said in other texts they were returning Heraklids he says in some passage that the so-called Dorian invadors in Sparta were in fact veterans from
the Trojan war who after returning to the Polis found themselfes thrown over and cheated depraved of their former status by kinsmen who did stay and took over during the time of their absence
war but stayed there they were eventually driven out further till the Pindus Mountains and Makedonia and after they assembled some strenght returned and
took over the Polis again,in revenge they turned the other Greeks there into slave.
Of course this is alos only speculation by Herodotus but he mentions this theory as well...

It also remains to show what Illyrians actually where..?
Perhabs the original Dorians were nothing else but proper Hellenic but Illyrians themselfes were a part which split of from Dorians and became more
Northern...


Yes this is what the myth says but we might never know. It would be interesting but I doubt they were the same as the proto-Hellenes which hardly had any Yamna by the time they reached Greece.

Herodotus doesn't actually say that the Dorians were Illyrian btw, he says that that one of the tribes of 'lotus-eaters' are Illyrian and that Heracles settled them somewhere in south Greece.


This was much later after their arrival..

Greeks always fought each other
In some conflicts some Ionians"such as Samos" that where usualy more allied with Athens even supported Sparta.

And as i said there was one real incidence were a foreign people wanted to invade Greece.
It was the Persians and in this war Athanians and Spartans united and fought together against them.
Spartans at Thermopylae and Athenians after at the Sea battle of Salamis.

European tribes of further North of Greece were disorganized,anarchic tribal communities they were perhabs brutal and warlike but they were never able to do any kind of
invasion or establish a permanent rulership in Greek lands at the time of the allegedly Dorian invasion.
What they would do is guerillia like attacks take all they can get and then leave..
You can see this even later in Roman history.

In fact Germanics,Celts and others became more influential and powerfull much later when they adopted forms of Greco-Roman type state organisation and
rulership from the Romans

They fought each other because they were different. All Greek speakers we're Hellenes, but they all had different origins and dialects. Spartans were more barbaric and militaristic and we should expect this from Macedonians as well, while other Hellenic groups pleasured themselves in both Art/Science and military strength. Why do you think there are no Dorian sculptures or paintings? There's nothing significant in Dorian settlements because they never had the capacity to build these things, they focused only on military power. There's no doubt that all these sculptures and paintings we find in Macedonia are made by non-Dorians.

I'm almost 100% sure the Dorian invasion happened, there's no way to explain their presence otherwise. Whether they are foreigners or had a presence in the peninsula before 1200BC is a mystery.

[Tauromachos]

I 100% agree. I just think the myths contradict this.

Why do you agree with him?
What is the evidence that supports his claims?

[Kouros]

Why do you agree with him?
What is the evidence that supports his claims?

I just do. They both have their origins in the Balkans. I just think it's impossible they are the same exact people.

[Sikeliot]

The Hellenes were Ionians, Aeolians and Achaeans; the Dorians came later, from the north. Their impact was probably stronger in the Peloponnese and NE Greece, but there's something also in SE Sicily and Rhodes.

SE Sicily and Apulia are genetically close, both have Doric input.

[Tauromachos]

Yes this is what the myth says but we might never know. It would be interesting but I doubt they were the same as the proto-Hellenes which hardly had any Yamna by the time they reached Greece.

Herodotus doesn't actually say that the Dorians were Illyrian btw, he says that that one of the tribes of 'lotus-eaters' are Illyrian and that Heracles settled them somewhere in south Greece.



They fought each other because they were different. All Greek speakers we're Hellenes, but they all had different origins and dialects. Spartans were more barbaric and militaristic and we should expect this from Macedonians as well, while other Hellenic groups pleasured themselves in both Art/Science and military strength. Why do you think there are no Dorian sculptures or paintings? There's nothing significant in Dorian settlements because they never had the capacity to build these things, they focused only on military power. There's no doubt that all these sculptures and paintings we find in Macedonia are made by non-Dorians.

Not realy true
Corinthians were Dorians as well ..
All Greeks engaged in wars and had some warlike costums.
For example Pankration which was even an olympic dicipline was practised everywhere in Greece
Spartans and Athenian Hoplites had the same kind of dressing or Greek uniform ...
Spartans didn't wear Viking helmets. :lol:

Spartans worshipped the same basic gods like Athenians.
They didn't only worship Artemis or Aris"the god of War" they worshiped alos Athene and Apollo in Sparta.
Pythagoras was an Ionian Greek from Samos who went to Southern Italy and taught the Dorian Greeks there Philosophy and Science.
He had many followers in the Greek world also among Dorians.
There were also Spartan Pythagoreans.
Being warlike and civilized in Ancient Greece weren't necessarily contradictions..

As all Greeks Spartans had numerous festivities with music and dancing.
Spartans had one special festivity following the Mycanaean cult of Dioskuroi"Castor and Polideukes"
http://www.theoi.com/


In ancient Greek music there was also the so called Dorian mode.
Two famous mathematicians were Dorians or at least Doric speakers.

1)Archytas from Tarentum in ancient Greek "Taras" which was a colony founded by the Spartans".
He was all three a military leader strategos a scientist and an engineer.

2)Archimidis from Syrakuse prefered to write his works in Dorian Greek
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CF%81%CF%87%CF%8D%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%82_%CE%BF_ %CE%A4%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%BD
%CE%BF%CF%82

(https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CF%81%CF%87%CF%8D%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%82_%CE%BF_ %CE%A4%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%BD%C E%BF%CF%82)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranto





I'm almost 100% sure the Dorian invasion happened, there's no way to explain their presence otherwise. Whether they are foreigners or had a presence in the peninsula before 1200BC is a mystery.

I'm almost sure it didn't happened..

[Sizzo]

SE Sicily and Apulia are genetically close, both have Doric input.

Yes, there were Dorian colonies also in Eraclea/Policoro and Taranto (VIII-VII BCE) and in Gallipoli and Idrunte/Otranto (about IV BCE). The rest of Apulia (the colonies were in Salento, the southern part, where in fact there is a clear Greek linguistic influence, like in central-southern Calabria and Sicily) is quite "Balkanic", probably the results of the Illyrian connection between Apulia (Daunia, Iapigia, Messapia) and the eastern coast of Adriatic sea.
Curiously, as many know, former Calabria was Salento itself, while modern Calabria was Bruttium, and Lucania in the extreme north, Italicized territories.

[Tauromachos]

bump

[Tauromachos]

They fought each other because they were different

So what ?

Different Germanic tribes fought each other as well
Does it mean that they are different races?

[Tauromachos]

Yes, there were Dorian colonies also in Eraclea/Policoro and Taranto (VIII-VII BCE) and in Gallipoli and Idrunte/Otranto (about IV BCE). The rest of Apulia (the colonies were in Salento, the southern part, where in fact there is a clear Greek linguistic influence, like in central-southern Calabria and Sicily) is quite

Exactly this^

And nothing more
It says Greek and it is Greek,not Illyrian or something else
Balkanic?
If you mean by Balkanic Continental Greece,then yes.
Otherwise its not Balkanic

[Tauromachos]

I just do. They both have their origins in the Balkans. I just think it's impossible they are the same exact people.

Ok your legal right to do so,but still you didn't realy answer my question
What is your evidence or your sources?

[Lavrentis]

If you mean by Balkanic Continental Greece,then yes.
Otherwise its not Balkanic

No you idiot, he doesn't mean 'Balkanic continental Greece', there is nothing like that. He means Illyrian influence.

[StonyArabia]

If you're genetically closer to Albanians than to Middle Easterners then you're not Middle Eastern. Sicilians are not Middle Eastern, but Ashkenazi Jews can say they are because unlike every other ethnicity in Europe, they have only been there for 2500 years, and they share tangible semitic roots with Middle Easterners that IBD tests expose. They also still cluster a bit more southern than the average Sicilian, they cluster with the lower half atypical Sicilians.

The Maltese could probably say they're Middle Easterners if they really wanted to, but Sicilians cannot.

Ashkenazim differ from other Europeans, because they also have minor SSA admix, which indicates their Afro-Asiatic roots. Despite the fact most Ashkenazim come from Eastern Europe. The SSA admix they have is ancient and it's East African I believe.

[Bobby Martnen]

Except for Istanbul Turks, Turks are further from Greeks than Lebanese are from Sicilians.


Of course Turks are further from Greeks than Sicilians are from Lebanese - Turks are from Central Asia, whereas the other three groups are Mediterranean.

A lot of Constantinopolitan Turks have a lot of European admixture from the massive enslavement and rape of Europeans (devshirme) practiced during the Ottoman Empire.

Sicilians, Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Greek Cypriots are all somewhere between Europe and the Levant. Sicilians are the most European, followed closely by Ashkenazis, Sephardics, and Cypriots are the most MENA of them.

[Hudayar]

They are lol. Look at any PCA plot, a few Greek samples always gets pulled back to Cyprus while Turkey is almost completely isolated. The few that get pulled to European cluster are just Turkish balkanites.



Yeah. Sometimes people confuse 'Turkic' with 'Turkish', it's not the same thing. All this is saying is that the two have some kind of common origin like you said whether it is Balkan, Slavic, Greek, Anatolian, or in fact Turkic. Turkey is diverse as hell so it's expected you get these results. And I don't think Turks have any west Asian, it's just Anatolian.

What do you mean by Anatolian?

I have 2 Anatolian results (pre and after neolithic) and they're very close to Mediterranean peoples and Jews. In fact, they're pretty close to Sardinians. In pop approximations they're not even close to us. not even in the slightest
and we're not diverse as hell.

[Cristiano viejo]

Of course Turks are further from Greeks than Sicilians are from Lebanese - Turks are from Central Asia, whereas the other three groups are Mediterranean.

A lot of Constantinopolitan Turks have a lot of European admixture from the massive enslavement and rape of Europeans (devshirme) practiced during the Ottoman Empire.

Sicilians, Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Greek Cypriots are all somewhere between Europe and the Levant. Sicilians are the most European, followed closely by Ashkenazis, Sephardics, and Cypriots are the most MENA of them.

What makes you to think that Ashkenazis are more European than Sephardis?

[Sp_loa]

What makes you to think that Ashkenazis are more European than Sephardis?

Yeah I don't get it.
Sephardim are very vary- there are the sephardics of turkey and balkans, there are the sephardics of north africa, there are the sephardics of western europe(conversos bnei anusim) and some even went to south and north america.
Each group (and individual) have their own DNA.

I'm North african Sephardic (Tetuani Moroccan but I have roots in Thessaloniki, greece) and I score more european than half of the Ashkenazim I know in 90% of DNA tests. In most tests I'm about 60% European (sometimes a bit less and sometimes even about 70% but I guess 70% is really off). My Ashkenazi friends scored 40-50% Euro when I scored 64% Euro in one test. they also have about 40-50% Levantine DNA while I have only 20% (Because half of my non european is Berber DNA and all of their non european is MENA).
The main difference is the type of european. While I score Southern european (Italian,greek/south slav and Iberian(mainly basque)), Ashkenazi Jews usually have Italian& northern European DNA.

[Tauromachos]

No you idiot,..

You are an Idiot

[Hudayar]

a Turk's results

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turk_Aydin_ @ 9.309506
2 Turk_ @ 10.136407
3 Turk_Adana_ @ 10.437569
4 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 11.441490
5 Turk_Kayseri_ @ 11.514420
6 Turk_Istanbul_ @ 11.634167
7 Azeri_ @ 13.321775
8 Nogai_ @ 13.755654
9 Kurd_North_ @ 14.389393
10 Uzbek_Tashkent_ @ 14.399537
11 Georgian_Jew_ @ 14.901056
12 Kurd_South_ @ 15.192968
13 Stalskoe_Kumyk_ @ 16.032942
14 Iraki_ @ 16.162626
15 Kurd_East_ @ 16.272804
16 Cirkassian_ @ 16.376595
17 Uzbekistani_Jew_ @ 16.621916
18 Azov_Greek_ @ 16.642782
19 Turkmen_Uzbekistan_ @ 16.691647
20 Baku_WGA_ @ 16.925547

[Lavrentis]

a Turk's results

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turk_Aydin_ @ 9.309506
2 Turk_ @ 10.136407
3 Turk_Adana_ @ 10.437569
4 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 11.441490
5 Turk_Kayseri_ @ 11.514420
6 Turk_Istanbul_ @ 11.634167
7 Azeri_ @ 13.321775
8 Nogai_ @ 13.755654
9 Kurd_North_ @ 14.389393
10 Uzbek_Tashkent_ @ 14.399537
11 Georgian_Jew_ @ 14.901056
12 Kurd_South_ @ 15.192968
13 Stalskoe_Kumyk_ @ 16.032942
14 Iraki_ @ 16.162626
15 Kurd_East_ @ 16.272804
16 Cirkassian_ @ 16.376595
17 Uzbekistani_Jew_ @ 16.621916
18 Azov_Greek_ @ 16.642782
19 Turkmen_Uzbekistan_ @ 16.691647
20 Baku_WGA_ @ 16.925547

This "Azov_Greek" marker has nothing to do with Greece genetically. Azov Greeks are literally Greek-speaking Caucasus people. They are basically like Pontians.

[Hudayar]

a Turk from Southern Turkey
# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish 13.24
2 Turkmen 15.81
3 Turkmen_Afghan 17.41
4 Uzbek_Afghan 18.55
5 Tajik 18.6
6 Azeri 19.11
7 Kumyk 20.34
8 Tajik_Afghan 20.38
9 Sicilian 21.16
10 Maltese 21.26
11 Greek 22.1
12 Hazara_Afghan 22.36
13 Adygei 22.38
14 Lebanese 22.5
15 Cypriot 22.78
16 Iranian 23.03
17 Albanian 23.18
18 Syrian 23.38
19 Uzbek 23.54
20 Chechen 23.83


a Turk from Central-Western Turkey
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turk_Aydin @ 5.232917
2 Turk_Balikesir @ 6.370986
3 Turk_Istanbul @ 8.663323
4 Turk @ 9.860601
5 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain @ 11.649318
6 Azov_Greek @ 11.803784
7 Turk_Adana @ 11.933046
8 Turk_Kayseri @ 12.379783
9 Cretan @ 13.949790
10 Crimean_Tatar_Coast @ 14.698227
11 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 15.229277
12 Sicilian_West @ 15.315301
13 Georgian_Jew @ 15.333658
14 Greek_Smyrna @ 15.519457
15 Romanian_Jew @ 15.736240
16 Nogai @ 15.785964
17 Greek @ 15.966936
18 Syrian_Jew @ 16.366724
19 Greek_Athens @ 16.380215
20 Greek_Macedonia @ 16.380232

[Hudayar]

Turkish_Balıkesir: top 20 populations
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turkish_Balikesir @ 0,24591
2 Turkish_Aydin @ 2,650914
3 Turkish_Cappadocia @ 10,156451
4 Kumyk @ 14,251155
5 Balkar @ 15,730195
6 North_Ossetian @ 15,771541
7 Nogai @ 16,381739
8 Adygei @ 16,670521
9 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 18,06219
10 Abkhasian @ 18,944679
11 Greek @ 19,305232
12 Chechen @ 19,318086
13 Georgian @ 19,370041
14 Sicilian @ 19,876989
15 West_Sicilian @ 19,957881
16 Maltese @ 20,211052
17 East_Sicilian @ 20,229785
18 South_Italian @ 20,77649
19 Armenian @ 21,046241
20 Kurdish @ 21,258097



Turkish_Aydın: top 20 populations
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turkish_Aydin @ 0,910749
2 Turkish_Balikesir @ 3,19076
3 Turkish_Cappadocia @ 8,406645
4 Kumyk @ 14,693317
5 Balkar @ 15,767996
6 North_Ossetian @ 15,793551
7 Adygei @ 16,623984
8 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 17,592416
9 Abkhasian @ 17,802281
10 Georgian @ 17,871352
11 Nogai @ 18,135272
12 Armenian @ 18,799562
13 Greek @ 19,587151
14 Sicilian @ 19,638308
15 East_Sicilian @ 19,67336
16 Maltese @ 19,739169
17 Syrian @ 19,775049
18 Lebanese @ 19,807055
19 Chechen @ 19,897039
20 South_Italian @ 19,949916

[Hadouken]

Turkish_Balıkesir: top 20 populations
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turkish_Balikesir @ 0,24591
2 Turkish_Aydin @ 2,650914
3 Turkish_Cappadocia @ 10,156451
4 Kumyk @ 14,251155
5 Balkar @ 15,730195
6 North_Ossetian @ 15,771541
7 Nogai @ 16,381739
8 Adygei @ 16,670521
9 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 18,06219
10 Abkhasian @ 18,944679
11 Greek @ 19,305232
12 Chechen @ 19,318086
13 Georgian @ 19,370041
14 Sicilian @ 19,876989
15 West_Sicilian @ 19,957881
16 Maltese @ 20,211052
17 East_Sicilian @ 20,229785
18 South_Italian @ 20,77649
19 Armenian @ 21,046241
20 Kurdish @ 21,258097



Turkish_Aydın: top 20 populations
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turkish_Aydin @ 0,910749
2 Turkish_Balikesir @ 3,19076
3 Turkish_Cappadocia @ 8,406645
4 Kumyk @ 14,693317
5 Balkar @ 15,767996
6 North_Ossetian @ 15,793551
7 Adygei @ 16,623984
8 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 17,592416
9 Abkhasian @ 17,802281
10 Georgian @ 17,871352
11 Nogai @ 18,135272
12 Armenian @ 18,799562
13 Greek @ 19,587151
14 Sicilian @ 19,638308
15 East_Sicilian @ 19,67336
16 Maltese @ 19,739169
17 Syrian @ 19,775049
18 Lebanese @ 19,807055
19 Chechen @ 19,897039
20 South_Italian @ 19,949916

which calc is this _?

[Hudayar]

which calc is this _?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191158-Comparison-of-Turks-Greeks-Sicilians-and-South-Italians

[Hudayar]

This "Azov_Greek" marker has nothing to do with Greece genetically. Azov Greeks are literally Greek-speaking Caucasus people. They are basically like Pontians.

Turk from "Pontus"
1 Turkish @ 10.676285
2 Azeri @ 15.171642
3 Kumyk @ 16.050533
4 Turkmen @ 16.118856
5 Tajik @ 16.352169
6 Uzbek_Afghan @ 17.833771
7 Adygei @ 18.110559
8 Turkmen_Afghan @ 18.554653
9 Tajik_Afghan @ 19.153833
10 Chechen @ 19.701227
11 Iranian @ 20.168293
12 Azeri_Dagestan @ 20.738377
13 Kurd_N @ 21.059706
14 Kurd_C @ 21.912727
15 Lezgin @ 22.502544
16 Kurd_E @ 23.118759
17 Armenian @ 23.260509
18 Georgian_Jew @ 23.334387
19 Hazara_Afghan @ 23.343536
20 Lebanese @ 23.940285


I think you're right :D

[Tauromachos]

a Turk's results

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turk_Aydin_ @ 9.309506
2 Turk_ @ 10.136407
3 Turk_Adana_ @ 10.437569
4 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 11.441490
5 Turk_Kayseri_ @ 11.514420
6 Turk_Istanbul_ @ 11.634167
7 Azeri_ @ 13.321775
8 Nogai_ @ 13.755654
9 Kurd_North_ @ 14.389393
10 Uzbek_Tashkent_ @ 14.399537
11 Georgian_Jew_ @ 14.901056
12 Kurd_South_ @ 15.192968
13 Stalskoe_Kumyk_ @ 16.032942
14 Iraki_ @ 16.162626
15 Kurd_East_ @ 16.272804
16 Cirkassian_ @ 16.376595
17 Uzbekistani_Jew_ @ 16.621916
18 Azov_Greek_ @ 16.642782
19 Turkmen_Uzbekistan_ @ 16.691647
20 Baku_WGA_ @ 16.925547

Why is this result supposed to be so close to Mediteraneans?
Explain?
Please don't expect every Non-Turkish person to understand what these categories mean..
Uzbek_Tashkent,Stalskoye_Kumyk,Cirkassian,Turkmen_ Uzbekistan...

What do they have to do with Meds?
Which Mediteraneans except of Turkish Meds have any of these categories..?
Just asking..

[Hudayar]

Why is this result supposed to be so close to Mediteraneans?
Explain?
Please don't expect every Non-Turkish person to understand what these categories mean..
Uzbek_Tashkent,Stalskoye_Kumyk,Cirkassian,Turkmen_ Uzbekistan...

What do they have to do with Meds?
Which Mediteraneans except of Turkish Meds have any of these categories..?
Just asking..

I'm just posting Turkish results for people who don't know what populations we're close to. OP didn't post any Turkish results.
Also i'm not claiming any European/Med heritage. I'm actually kind of against that.

[Tauromachos]

I'm just posting Turkish results for people who don't know what populations we're close to. OP didn't post any Turkish results.
Also i'm not claiming any European/Med heritage. I'm actually kind of against that.

Ok,fair enough..

Well some Turks have Med heritage others don't or at least less so
Just my opinion

[Hadouken]

Ok,fair enough..

Well some Turks have Med heritage others don't or at least less so
Just my opinion

turks score high mediterranean . same applies to others in west asia

not only south euros are/have med

the oracles of the turks look the way they do because of oghuz mix . on 2 population approx they get stuff like Cypriot + Turkmen , Greek + Nogai , Sicilian + Nogai etc.

[Hudayar]

Ok,fair enough..

Well some Turks have Med heritage others don't or at least less so
Just my opinion

As far as i see Turks are usually strangely close to peoples from Northern Caucasia, usually Turkic speaking Kumyks, Nogais and Balkars sometimes Circassians than to Armenians or Greeks or Italians of any kind. Some Turks are very close to Turkic peoples in Central Asia, some are close to Eastern peoples (Kurds, Iranians, Tajiks, Armenians etc). I have yet to see a Turk who's very close to Greeks, Italians and Balkan people :D

[Bobby Martnen]

What makes you to think that Ashkenazis are more European than Sephardis?

They plot slightly closer on average, and also their history of living in Central Europe as opposed to various places including North Africa and Asia Minor.

[Dimitri159]

Half if not most of your examples show that Greeks are slightly closer to Turks than Sicilians are to Levantines. But most importantly (!!!) they show that Greeks and Sicilians/S. Italians are closer to each other than either of them are to Turks or Levantines! Just thought I’d point that out, cause it always seemed to go past your fuzzy head.

We get it, there are slight differences, and Greeks may indeed shift ever so ‘slightly’ to the north like central Italians and Albanians. But that’s a very nit-picky outlook, in the end of the day Greeks and S. Italians are closely related. COPE with it.