Al-Andalus debate thread

[The Lawspeaker]

Perhaps it is a good idea to start debating on the real and attributed effects the Muslim conquest had on the re-development of European science and culture. On it's mathematics, it's advancement in medical science, in les beaux arts, in it's music and agriculture, in architecture, our developments in agriculture, our cuisine, our daily speech, our philosophy and gardening.

For instance the numeral digit we use today (and call Arab - and in Dutch we call it "cijfer" which is derived from Arab "sifr" which in itself is derived from Sanskrit "sunyata" (both meaning void)) is not Arab but Hindu and came to us not via Al-Andalus but via Leonardo Fibonacci, an Italian mathematician that brought it home from Algeria. And the digit itself (including the zero) came from India.

For short: what were the real.. AND imagined effects ?

[Lábaru]

Al-Andalus was the enemy of Spain, perhaps in its early centuries, the Hispano-Gothic achieved moderate and prosperous Islam but then became so radical as it is today, through the radical influence of african armies.

[Comte Arnau]

To me, the most important effect of the so-called Islamic Golden Age is that their geographical central position between the West and the East was perfect for transmission of knowledge from China, India and Persia to Western Europe. We should also bear in mind that many texts from ancient Greece and Rome that could have got lost forever were 'retranslated' thanks to the Arabic translations. The fact that quite a few words in Western languages haven't come directly from Greek or Latin but via Arabic is symptomatic of this.

I personally don't find it weird that many Latin/Christian inhabitants in Al-Andalus preferred to stay in the invaded cities rather than going up to live in the mountains of northern Iberia just because of their faith. The cities had all kind of trendy things, and access to knowledge and culture, in comparison with the harsh living conditions of their Christian fellows.

[Ibericus]

[FONT="Georgia"]Perhaps it is a good idea to start debating on the real and attributed effects the Muslim conquest had on the re-development of European science and culture. On it's mathematics, it's advancement in medical science, in les beaux arts, in it's music and agriculture, in architecture, our developments in agriculture, our cuisine, our daily speech, our philosophy and gardening.
Bullshit. The muslims had no effect in Al-Andalus. That's the truth. The only remaining things are 4 useless monuments and 2% of the Castillian vocabulary (even less in Catalan or Basque). By the way, it's a myth that Al-Andalus lasted 800 years. Only the Reyno de Granada lasted the full 800 years. Most of Al-Andalus, lasted from 100 to 400 years

[The Lawspeaker]

Bullshit. The muslims had no effect in Al-Andalus. That's the truth. The only remaining things are 4 useless monuments and 2% of the Castillian vocabulary (even less in Catalan or Basque). By the way, it's a myth that Al-Andalus lasted 800 years. Only the Reyno de Granada lasted the full 800 years. Most of Al-Andalus, lasted from 100 to 400 years
Too easy. You forget that your architecture has roots in Moorish examples and that alchemy, mathematics, hospitals, the use of modern numbers and a great deal of philosophy came back to Europe following that route.

Indeed. The Arab world was a funnel to which knowledge and products from the East arrived in Europe. Just look at the principles of irrigation which has Moorish roots, the apricot, the orange, the tulip (we got that one from the Turks), the windmill (likewise), the principles of alchemy (which fuelled European science), coffee etc etc. And we don't need to look into the amount of words in the English language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arabic_loanwords_in_English)(and likewise in your own language or in mine) that have sprung from the tongue of the enemy, have we ? And I wouldn't call the monuments to be useless. To do that is no less insane then the ideas of inquisition which also rammed a cathedral (and for what I have seen in a program- an ugly one at it) right into the very heart of the Cordoba mosque which could have been used as a cathedral anyways etc. To deny their usefulness in aesthetics and as inspiration for architects would be to deny your own history. I may hate Islam as much as I do but I do not deny history.

It may have been your enemy but I think that your forefathers were a lot smarter then you are supposedly now as they still learned a lot from their enemies (which resulted, thank heavens, in a flourishing Europe and a declining Arab world). Learn from your friends but even more from your enemy.

[Ibericus]

[FONT="Georgia"]Too easy. You forget that your architecture has roots in Moorish examples
What architecture ? Only the muslim monuments are of moorish architecture. By the way, the Muslim architecture was copied from Visigothic, Byzantine and Roman architecture.


and that alchemy, mathematics, hospitals, the use of modern numbers and a great deal of philosophy came back to Europe following that route.
Western philosophy is of Greek roots. Mathematics were developed mostly by Greeks.

[The Lawspeaker]

What architecture ? Only the muslim monuments are of moorish architecture. By the way, the Muslim architecture was copied from Visigothic, Byzantine and Roman architecture.
I am sure you know your architecture. The small winding streets with white-washed houses, the patio's and the iron before the windows:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Bar_behind_bars.jpg

It isn't Spanish. It's a Moorish left-over. ;) And what about the irrigation that was used in Southern Spain for centuries... where did that come from ? Not from the Romans. Not from the Spanish.



Western philosophy is of Greek roots. Mathematics were developed mostly by Greeks.
Exactly. And how did that come back to Europe ?

[Ibericus]

[FONT="Georgia"]I am sure you know your architecture. The small winding streets with white-washed houses, the patio's and the iron before the windows:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Bar_behind_bars.jpg
This is not moorish architecture. And by the way this kind of houses are only found in small villages of Andalusia, not in all Spain, therefore it is not "MY architecture" . But a small 'local architecture'. You see this archs :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Cordoba_moschee_innen3.jpg/200px-Cordoba_moschee_innen3.jpg Well, this archs are not Arab, they were taken from the Visigoths :

"The architecture built in Al-Ándalus under the Umayyads evolved from the architecture of Damascus with the addition of aesthetic achievements of local influence: the horse-shoe arch, a distinctive of Spanish Arab architecture was taken from Visigoths. Architects, artists and craftsmen came from the Orient to construct cities like Medina Azahara whose splendour couldn't have been imagined by the European kingdoms of the era. The horseshoe arch, also called the Moorish arch and the Keyhole arch, is the emblematic arch of Islamic architecture. They were formerly constructed in Visigothic Spain. Horseshoe arches can take rounded, pointed or lobed form. "

[The Lawspeaker]

This is not moorish architecture. And by the way this kind of houses are only found in small villages of Andalusia, not in all Spain, therefore it is not "MY architecture" . But a small 'local architecture'. You see this archs :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Cordoba_moschee_innen3.jpg/200px-Cordoba_moschee_innen3.jpg Well, this archs are not Arab, they were taken from the Visigoths :

"The architecture built in Al-Ándalus under the Umayyads evolved from the architecture of Damascus with the addition of aesthetic achievements of local influence: the horse-shoe arch, a distinctive of Spanish Arab architecture was taken from Visigoths. Architects, artists and craftsmen came from the Orient to construct cities like Medina Azahara whose splendour couldn't have been imagined by the European kingdoms of the era. The horseshoe arch, also called the Moorish arch and the Keyhole arch, is the emblematic arch of Islamic architecture. They were formerly constructed in Visigothic Spain. Horseshoe arches can take rounded, pointed or lobed form. "
And improved upon. It's still the thing for which Spain is still famous. Why is it so difficult to recognize that there would have been no Spanish Empire if it wasn't for that bit of influence and a lot of money? "Spain" (or what is now Spain.. it wasn't even a single country) was just the backwater of Europe before 1492. Because then the Reconquista was complete. The gold and the knowledge went to the Spanish and they set out discovering the world. It's good that the Moors are out but if you deny their influence on modern Europe then you might just as well lead a very boring life without mathematics, numbers, modern medicine (which was further developed by Europeans after having it's base on the Greek and Roman science that was based onto us by the hated Arabs), without street lighting, without coffee, without paper (that came from China via the Arabs)...

[Ibericus]

And improved upon. It's still the thing for which Spain is still famous. Why is it so difficult to recognize that there would have been no Spanish Empire and Spain was just the backwater of Europe before 1492 ? Because then the Reconquista was complete. The gold and the knowledge went to the Spanish and they set out discovering the world.

LOL, why there would have been no spanish empire ? But how can you give the arabs such imaginary influence, when they were such a minority ? Don't fall into the trap of progressists and left-wingers multiculturalists. And the fuckin moors lasted ony 300 years in the half-north of Iberia (where the majority of people lived)

[The Lawspeaker]

LOL, why there would have been no spanish empire ? But how can you give the arabs such imaginary influence, when they were such a minority ? Don't fall into the trap of progressists and left-wingers multiculturalists. And the fuckin moors lasted ony 300 years in the half-north of Iberia (where the majority of people lived)
It's still because they held the majority of all Roman works, Greek works, Byzantine works, the fact that they had contacts with the Persians, the Indians and the Chinese that such knowledge was passed on to us. Europe was nothing in the early Middle Ages. We just lost the Roman Empire and Europe lay in ruins.

The Arabs were not smarter. They were just more well-placed. They were the lucky middlemen and why is it so difficult to recognize that fact ? And if is so difficult to recognize that Spanish architecture also has seen profound Moorish influence then I am quite sure that you don't know what Mudéjar is.

[Lábaru]

LOL, why there would have been no spanish empire ? But how can you give the arabs such imaginary influence, when they were such a minority ? Don't fall into the trap of progressists and left-wingers multiculturalists. And the fuckin moors lasted ony 300 years in the half-north of Iberia (where the majority of people lived)

Totally agree, nonsense of multiculturalism.

[The Lawspeaker]

Totally agree, nonsense of multiculturalism.
Too easy. And a pretty dumb conclusion. So where did coffee come from ? How did mathematics end up here in Europe after the collapse of Roman science and the Roman empire ? So how did alchemy end up in Europe ? Where do the numbers itself come from ? Who made the irrigation of Southern Spain ? Who developed Granada ? Where did the Spanish get the compass that led them on their journeys ? How did the knowledge of Chinese gun powder come to Spain ? How did so many Arab words entered our daily lexicon in those days ?

Fact of the matter is: we learned from the enemy and we used it to their detriment because, thank heavens, we weren't so stupid back then

[Lábaru]

Too easy. And a pretty dumb conclusion. So where did coffee come from ? How did mathematics end up here in Europe after the collapse of Roman science and the Roman empire. So how did alchemy end up in Europe ? Where do the numbers itself come from ? Who made the irrigation of Southern Spain ? Who developed Granada ? Where did the Spanish did the compass that led them on their journeys ? How did the knowledge of Chinese gun powder come to Spain ? How did so many Arab words entered our daily lexicon in those days ?


All these are inventions prior to Al-Andalus, compiled by Spanish-Goth, the majority of the population of Al-Andalus.

That these people pray to Allah does not change anything, were not Arabs.

[The Lawspeaker]

All these are inventions prior to Al-Andalus, compiled by Spanish-Goth, the majority of the population of Al-Andalus.

That these people pray to Allah does not change anything, were not Arabs.
Yeah right. :rolleyes2:

[Lábaru]

Look, Wallada, an important and famous women of Al-Andalus, Can you imagine something similar in the Arab world today?

http://www4.gvsu.edu/wrightd/Women%20Writers/wallada6mxua5.jpg

Islam in Iberia had a moderate season by Western influence, but soon become radical for the Eastern influence.

Sorry I can not explain it better in English

[Ibericus]

[FONT="Georgia"]Too easy. And a pretty dumb conclusion. So where did coffee come from ?
America.


did mathematics end up here in Europe after the collapse of Roman science and the Roman empire ?
Roman may have collapsed, but not mathematic knowledg from Greeks.


Who developed Granada ?
Ibero-Celts, Romans, Visigoths and then Spaniards.


How did so many Arab words entered our daily lexicon in those days ?Not really. Only 2.5 % of the vocabulary.

[The Lawspeaker]

Look, Wallada, an important and famous women of Al-Andalus, Can you imagine something similar in the Arab world today?

http://www4.gvsu.edu/wrightd/Women%20Writers/wallada6mxua5.jpg
Most certainly not. Could you have imagined her in 16th century Spain ? Me neither.


Islam in Iberia had a moderate season by Western influence, but soon become radical for the Eastern influence.
Exactly. This proved to be the strength of Al-Andalus as it was ideally placed (between Europe and because of religion the Middle East with it's connections to the world beyond and because it had it's hands on capable poets, scientists, philosophers, writers and on a great deal of Classical works) and it could have actually been a pillar underneath Spain if it wasn't for the Spanish Inquisition. Frankly.. I wonder how it would have gone if Islam in Spain could have made it's contribution on Spanish Christianity and was allowed to die a slow death. I do think that we wouldn't have had the corruption and the decline that plagued Spain after the late 16th century. I actually think.. now we are going into the realm of dreams: that the Netherlands might still have been a part of the Spanish Empire as it was taxation coupled with religious fanaticism that drove us to rebellion.


Sorry I can not explain it better in English
No problem. If it wasn't for the damn Spanish Inquisition we could have continued this in French or Spanish...;):coffee:


America.
It came from the Arab world or actually from Ethiopia via the Arab world. The Arab word is qahwa - guess where our word coffee comes from ?



Roman may have collapsed, but not mathematic knowledg from Greeks.
Very well. But there wasn't much of a Europe left until the 11th century was there ?



Ibero-Celts, Romans, Visigoths and then Spaniards.
Right. :rolleyes: So all the architecture is pure Spanish and Mudéjar comes from where ?


Not really. Only 2.5 % of the vocabulary.
Still 2.5 percent of words that are pretty damn influential.

[Groenewolf]

A major problem in this case is that popularly the contribution of Al-Andalus to European science and technics is believed to be larger then it probably where. Even more so if you want to contribute them to Muslims. Like Civi Batavi said the Arabs in a certain way played the role of middle men, but that what they had transmitted had practically no lasting influence on them after most of the conquered people who where most responsible for preserving and expanding this knowledge had converted to Islam.

The revival of Greek knowledge in Western Europe is contributed to Islam, however they did not in the way most people believe. The revival was more brought about by the arrival of refugees coming from the Byzantine intellectual elite. Who also brought with them knowledge of Ancient Greek. It is maybe more accurate to say that we have done more to preserve the works of the great minds of Arab culture then they have done for the Greek tradition.

[The Lawspeaker]

A major problem in this case is that popularly the contribution of Al-Andalus to European science and technics is believed to be larger then it probably where. Even more so if you want to contribute them to Muslims. Like Civi Batavi said the Arabs in a certain way played the role of middle men, but that what they had transmitted had practically no lasting influence on them after most of the conquered people who where most responsible for preserving and expanding this knowledge had converted to Islam.

The revival of Greek knowledge in Western Europe is contributed to Islam, however they did not in the way most people believe. The revival was more brought about by the arrival of refugees coming from the Byzantine intellectual elite. Who also brought with them knowledge of Ancient Greek. It is maybe more accurate to say that we have done more to preserve the works of the great minds of Arab culture then they have done for the Greek tradition.
That's exactly where it lies. They were the well-placed middlemen. Even if they did by means of making sure that people fled before their armies. They still, in a sense, played a role.

After all: it were the Arabs that burned down the Great Library of Alexandria. And not every Muslim nation was so sophisticated. Certainly they did a great deal under Harun-al-Rasjid but after that well one can say that Egypt, the Moorish areas in Spain and Persia (which is of course not Arab) played some roles if importance.. and mainly again as the middlemen in the fields of commerce and transmitting knowledge.

[Lábaru]

The inquisition was necessary, the Muslims were a constant danger as a fifth column in Spain, always threatened by North Africa and by the Turks in the East, it is easy to feel the fear now, five hundred years later.

[The Lawspeaker]

The inquisition was necessary, the Muslims were a constant danger as a fifth column in Spain, always threatened by North Africa and by the Turks in the East, it is easy to feel the fear now, five hundred years later.
Of course. But I think they went too far but then again. It's easy to judge the actions of ones ancestors from hindsight and instead of turning the guns solely on the Jews and Muslims they turned it too on fellow Christians. But I think that some hawks in those days considered (wrongfully) Protestantism to be an arm of Islam.

[Ibericus]

It came from the Arab world or actually from Ethiopia via the Arab world. The Arab word is qahwa - guess where our word coffee comes from ?
Who cares about the word ? It's not a contribution. If arabs didn't have name it, anyone else would have done it. The matter is , Coffee came from America.


Very well. But there wasn't much of a Europe left until the 11th century was there ?

I was talking about mathematic knowledge. That came from the greeks mainly. Most of the modern theories came from greeks.



Right. :rolleyes: So all the architecture is pure Spanish and Mudéjar comes from where ?
LOL. Only because there are some mudejar buildings means that all the architecture of Granada is Almudejar ? Quite an impressive deduction. Sorry but most of the city has non-moorish architecture :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Vue_Panoramique_de_Grenade.JPG



Still 2.5 percent of words that are pretty damn influential.
No. It is not damn influential sorry. And of this 2.5 % not all are of everyday use..

[Groenewolf]

Even if they did by means of making sure that people fled before their armies. They still, in a sense, played a role.

That is something different then more seemingly positive role you seem to attribute to the Islamic presence in Iberia.


After all: it were the Arabs that burned down the Great Library of Alexandria. And not every Muslim nation was so sophisticated. Certainly they did a great deal under Harun-al-Rasjid but after that well one can say that Egypt, the Moorish areas in Spain and Persia (which is of course not Arab) played some roles if importance.. and mainly again as the middlemen in the fields of commerce and transmitting knowledge.

Most of the knowledge where not really transmitted trough Muslims, but by the subject people. This is also one of the reasons for the decline of the Arab Golden Age, many of these subject people have become Muslims in order to escape the oppressing laws of the Sharia that exist for dhimmi's. Also, what was probably the biggest nail to the coffin, was the work of a Sufi against the Arab philosophers. I actually tried to order an translation of that work, but it is out of print for a couple of decades.


The inquisition was necessary, the Muslims were a constant danger as a fifth column in Spain, always threatened by North Africa and by the Turks in the East, it is easy to feel the fear now, five hundred years later.

I think you mean it is easy to dismiss the fear now.

[The Lawspeaker]

Who cares about the word ? It's not a contribution. If arabs didn't have name it, anyone else would have done it. The matter is , Coffee came from America.
Africa via the Arab world. Look it up if you really want to know.



I was talking about mathematic knowledge. That came from the greeks mainly. Most of the modern theories came from greeks.
And came back to us via translated works.





LOL. Only because there are some mudejar buildings means that all the architecture of Granada is Almudejar ? Quite an impressive deduction. Sorry but most of the city has non-moorish architecture :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Vue_Panoramique_de_Grenade.JPG
Right.





No. It is not damn influential sorry. And of this 2.5 % not all are of everyday use..
From now on you are NOT allowed to use these words (http://www.zompist.com/arabic.html) anymore. Ever. The fact is that it would be fair to say that the Arabs in that respect were the yankees of the Middle Ages. Nobody liked them but they influenced us linguistically, socially, economically etc. (Sorry Americans, just for making my point come across. ;) )


That is something different then more seemingly positive role you seem to attribute to the Islamic presence in Iberia.
In that respect it had a positive influence in the same way as let's say Nazism had a positive influence on the social security system - at least in our own country. We learned some skills we needed to beat them out and we did so successfully and if they ever find something that we can use to beat them out again we should never refrain from learning and using it to their detriment.




Most of the knowledge where not really transmitted trough Muslims, but by the subject people. This is also one of the reasons for the decline of the Arab Golden Age, many of these subject people have become Muslims in order to escape the oppressing laws of the Sharia that exist for dhimmi's. Also, what was probably the biggest nail to the coffin, was the work of a Sufi against the Arab philosophers. I actually tried to order an translation of that work, but it is out of print for a couple of decades.



But still via that way that knowledge came (back) to Europe. With the refugees came the knowledge and the products and the inventions. It's a real shame that you can't find that translation as you could have put it here online.

[Svanhild]

It's still because they held the majority of all Roman works, Greek works, Byzantine works, the fact that they had contacts with the Persians, the Indians and the Chinese that such knowledge was passed on to us. Europe was nothing in the early Middle Ages. We just lost the Roman Empire and Europe lay in ruins.

The Arabs were not smarter. They were just more well-placed. They were the lucky middlemen and why is it so difficult to recognize that fact ? And if is so difficult to recognize that Spanish architecture also has seen profound Moorish influence then I am quite sure that you don't know what Mudéjar is.
This proved to be the strength of Al-Andalus as it was ideally placed (between Europe and because of religion the Middle East with it's connections to the world beyond and because it had it's hands on capable poets, scientists, philosophers, writers and on a great deal of Classical works) and it could have actually been a pillar underneath Spain if it wasn't for the Spanish Inquisition. Frankly.. I wonder how it would have gone if Islam in Spain could have made it's contribution on Spanish Christianity and was allowed to die a slow death. I do think that we wouldn't have had the corruption and the decline that plagued Spain after the late 16th century.
Sorry Asega, but you should hear you talking. You sound like an apologist for Islam who justifies foreign domination. People could count before the usage of Arab nummers, they just used other signs and methods. Europe wasn't dumb. It was different. And truth be told, I don't care for some possible minor advantages by Muslim influence. The fact remains that Islam has been always hostile towards our Western world from the very beginning. I prefer to have a few scientifical disadvantages rather than accepting stolen input from the foe. Most of the Muslim wisdom was stolen Greek or Roman wisdom. And Europeans wouldn't be dyslexic or dyscalculatic without Muslim influence.

You underestimate European achievements and overestimate Muslim influences. The reason for your recent thinking is unknown to me. No fraternisation.

[Wyn]

But I think that some hawks in those days considered (wrongfully) Protestantism to be an arm of Islam.


Well, it was often iconoclastic, like Islam.

All in all you sound a bit like a defender of Islam in this thread, to be completely honest.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry Asega, but you should hear you talking. You sound like an apologist for Islam who justifies foreign domination. People could count before the usage of Arab nummers, they just used other signs and methods. Europe wasn't dumb. It was different. And truth be told, I don't care for some possible minor advantages by Muslim influence. The fact remains that Islam has been always hostile towards our Western world from the very beginning. I prefer to have a few scientifical disadvantages rather than accepting stolen input from the foe. Most of the Muslim wisdom was stolen Greek or Roman wisdom. And Europeans wouldn't be dyslexic or dyscalculatic without Muslim influence.
Did I say bring them in ? NO I didn't. I said: well be can be glad with what we learned from them. And I think that we can (today) learn a couple of things from Islamic banking and protect ourselves the beauties of Jewish banking which is causing so much damage as we speak. I rather learn from the enemy and use it to fund his own undoing. :lightbul:


You underestimate European achievements and overestimate Muslim influences. The reason for your recent thinking is unknown to me. No fraternisation.
Learn from your friends... but even more from your enemy. Mathematics helped us with improving our defence capabilities. It improved our wealth which we could use .. to defend ourselves.


Well, it was often iconoclastic, like Islam.

All in all you sound a bit like a defender of Islam in this thread, to be completely honest.
Not really. Hell.. the question is: what did we learn from them back then and what can we learn from them now ?
Think strategically. That's what I am doing and I think that we can't think strategically and only say "look at our own achievements" we are doomed for the scrapheap and evolutionary speaking: rightfully so. Then we will be no better then they are (no worse even) because they still think they invented the world (and we will be worse because we have the capacity) while they have been standing still for some 600 to 800 years.

[Lábaru]

A little off topic.

Iberia has always been place of great genius, with or without Islam.

Islam has not the merit of what was achieved in the Iberian peninsula, only the iberian people, not arabs, europeans people.

Four geniuses living in the same century, without Islam. Without reconquest had been called/named in another way "Ahmed, Mohamed, Abderraman ect.." but the merit would not be Islam or Al-Andalus are the people of Iberia.




Lope De vega, 25 November 1562 – 27 August 1635

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/LopedeVega.jpg/240px-LopedeVega.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lope_de_Vega

Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra 29 September 1547 – 23 April 1616

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Cervates_jauregui.jpg/240px-Cervates_jauregui.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Cervantes


Francisco Gómez de Quevedo y Santibáñez Villegas 14 September 1580 – 8 September 1645

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Don_francisco_de_quevedo-villegas.jpg/240px-Don_francisco_de_quevedo-villegas.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_de_Quevedo

Luis de Góngora y Argote 11 July 1561 – Córdoba, 24 May 1627

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Luis_de_G%C3%B3ngora_y_Argote.jpg/240px-Luis_de_G%C3%B3ngora_y_Argote.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_de_G%C3%B3ngora

[The Lawspeaker]

Alright. Time for Iberian geniuses from BEFORE the invasion.

[Ibericus]

Alright. Time for Iberian geniuses from BEFORE the invasion.
Isidoro de Sevilla, for example.

[The Lawspeaker]

Isidoro de Sevilla, for example.
More names, dates and achievements.

[Raikaswinþs]

Bullshit. The muslims had no effect in Al-Andalus. That's the truth. The only remaining things are 4 useless monuments and 2% of the Castillian vocabulary (even less in Catalan or Basque). By the way, it's a myth that Al-Andalus lasted 800 years. Only the Reyno de Granada lasted the full 800 years. Most of Al-Andalus, lasted from 100 to 400 years

muslims had no effect in "Al-Andalus"?? sometimes I think I do have experienced a very different Spain that some of my countrymen.

also seem to have a different concept of what a "useless monument is"


like this

http://ketari.nirudia.com/photos/normal/ketari-20091112114038.jpg

rather than this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Alhambra_view.jpg

[Ibericus]

More names, dates and achievements.

Seneca. Now tell me geniuses in the rest of Europe before 700 AD

[Ibericus]

muslims had no effect in "Al-Andalus"?? sometimes I think I do have experienced a very different Spain that some of my countrymen.

also seem to have a different concept of what a "useless monument is"


like this

http://ketari.nirudia.com/photos/normal/ketari-20091112114038.jpg

rather than this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Alhambra_view.jpg
hmmm..The Alhambra today is used only for Tourists...Well, somehow it is useful to make money, but it was not the first intention of the buidlers ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

The first one is likely to be torn down because of it's protruding ugliness (and not worth to celebrate a big event in European history) and the second one will survive the test of time.

The Alhambra could actually be a monument for Spain's victory over the invaders: build by Christian slaves, on Spanish soil, taken back by Spain. There should be a big Spanish flag flying over it as an " in your face" and His Majesty should be having his monthly dinner in the Court of Lions served by Islamic servants but no.

Now that is rubbing salt in a wound. And be sure to make sure that the King of Morocco or Saudi Arabia has to pay you an annual visit and see the Spanish flag fly over the Alhambra.


Seneca. Now tell me geniuses in the rest of Europe before 700 AD
Seneca was hardly a Spaniard as the Spanish of today didn't even exist as a people.

[Ibericus]

Seneca was hardly a Spaniard as the Spanish of today didn't even exist as a people.
Who said Seneca is a spaniard ? :confused: But you asked me about Iberian geniuese...What's wrong ? Plus Romans are also part of our ancestry why a roman of the 7th can't be Iberian ? He was born in Iberia

[The Lawspeaker]

Who said Seneca is a spaniard ? :confused: But you asked me about Iberian geniuese...What's wrong ? Plus Romans are also part of our ancestry why a roman of the 7th can't be Iberian ?
He hardly belongs to the Iberian nations as they existed before the first Moor reared his ugly head in Gibraltar does it ? What about Visigoths ?

[Raikaswinþs]

Alright. Time for Iberian geniuses from BEFORE the invasion.

ever heard of philisophers Seneca: father and son? Emperors Hadrian, Trajan and Teodosium of the Roman empire? poet MArco VAlerio Marcial? Writer Lucano? Marcus Fabius Quintilianus? I hope I don't need to tell you about the military genious of Iberians , resisting the Roman empire for 200 years (how much did it took Julius Caesar to take all Gallia?) and being the battle field of the Punic wars...

all of them Hispanii

[The Lawspeaker]

ever heard of philisophers Seneca: father and son? Emperors Hadrian, Trajan and Teodosium of the Roman empire? poet MArco VAlerio Marcial? Writer Lucano? Marcus Fabius Quintilianus? I hope I don't need to tell you about the military genious of Iberians , resisting the Roman empire for 200 years (how much did it took Julius Caesar to take all Gallia?) and being the battle field of the Punic wars...
Yes but.. I am referring to Visigoth geniuses. The Romans were Europeans.

[Ibericus]

Yes but.. I am referring to Visigoth geniuses. The Romans were Europeans.
First of all : You can compare the concept of "genius" from the 17th centruy with geniuses of 6th centruy. At that time the geniuese were the likes of Don Pelayo, a descendant of Visigoths. But from an intellectual definition of genius you have :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Isidoro_de_Sevilla_%28Jos%C3%A9_Alcoverro%29_01.jp g/533px-Isidoro_de_Sevilla_%28Jos%C3%A9_Alcoverro%29_01.jp g

[Raikaswinþs]

Yes but.. I am referring to Visigoth geniuses. The Romans were Europeans.

Visigoth Geniuses? Visigoths were just a bunch of barbarians that ruled the chaos left in hispania after the end of the roman empire. Visigoths were certainly invaders, as much as the Moors, and In my humble opinion, their contribution to the history of Iberia was rather insignificant when compared with Roman Hispania or Al Andalus, or the Christian Kingoms (specially since Alfonso X) and the Hispanic Crowns.

Visigoths were nothing impressive, and spent more time fighting each other than building a nation. No wonder they where so easily defeated, after all, compared with the Romans, or the Muslims, were rather unimportant.

It is just the Germanophilia of Franco which made them shine into the history books rather than their own merits.

To the average Hispanii, the Visigoths, or even the Muslim rulers had rather small impact on their lives which continued to be essentially hispano romans. This said, the contribution of Al-Andalus to Hispania, was much more important than that of the Visigoths.

The hispanii wouldn't miss Christianism a lot, since it was also a foreign religion imposed by the rule of law. And in the same way, it wouldn't be difficult to switch again when the rulling castes switched once more from "muslim" to "christian"

Only haters that Identify al-Andalus with modern muslim nations or al-quaeda are ashamed of that part of our history.

I am certainly not. and I'd never go saying that Spaniards were arabs during alandalus or all of this bullshit

[andalusian]

I am stunned reading what some bigots wrote about Muslim Spain, so I thought to contribute little bit here since I have andalusian muslim roots.

Here is some quotes about Muslim Spain, Al Andalus,

Stanley Lane-Poole, The Moors in Spain: Introduction.

"For nearly eight centuries, under the Muslim rule, Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state. Her fertile provinces rendered doubly prolific, by the industrious engineering skill of the conquerors bore fruit a hundredfold, cities innumerable sprang up in the rich valleys in the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana whose names, and names only commemorate the vanished glories of their past.

"...To Cordoba belong all the beauty and ornaments that delight the eye or dazzle the sight. Her long line of Sultans form her crown of glory; her necklace is strung with the pearls which her poets have gathered from the ocean of language; her dress is of the banners of learning, well-knit together by her men of science; and the masters of every art and industry are the hem of her garments.

"Art, literature and science prospered as they then prospered nowhere else in Europe...

"Mathematics, astronomy, botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence were to be mastered in Spain, and Spain alone. Whatever makes a kingdom great and prosperous, whatever tends to refinement and civilization, was found in Muslim Spain...

"With Granada fell all Spain's greatness. For a brief while, indeed, the reflection of the Moorish splendour cast a borrowed light upon the history of the land which it had once warmed with its sunny radiance. The great epoch of Isabella, Charles V and Philip II, of Columbus, Cortes and Pizarro, shed a last halo about the dying monuments of a mighty state. When followed the abomination of dissolution, the rule of inquisition and the blackness of darkness in which Spain has been plunged ever since. "In the land where science was once supreme, the Spanish doctors became noted for nothing but their ignorance and incapacity. The arts of Toledo and Almeria faded into insignificance.

"The land deprived of skillful irrigation of the Moors, grew impoverished and neglected, the richest and most fertile valleys languished and were deserted, and most of the populous cities which had filled every district in Andalusia, fell into ruinous decay; and beggars, friars, and bandits took the place of scholars, merchants and knights. So low fell Spain when she had driven away the Moors. Such is the melancholy contrast offered by her history."

Conde as quoted in Prescott, Philip II of Spain, Vol. III.

"And so vanquished for ever from the Spanish territory this brave, intelligent and enlightened people, who with their resolution and labour inspired life into the land, which the vain pride of the Goths condemned to sterility, and endowed it with prosperity and abundance and with innumerable canals, this people whose admirable courage was likewise, in happiness and adversity, a strong rampart to the throne of the Caliphs, whose genius, progress and study raised in its cities an internal edifice of light which sent its rays into Europe and inspired it with the passion of study, and whose magnanimous spirit tinted all its acts with an unrivalled colour of grandeur and nobility, and endowed it in the eyes of posterity with a sort of extraordinary greatness and charming colour of heroism which invokes the magical ages of Homer and which presents them to us in the garb of Greek half-gods.

"The Arabs suddenly appeared in Spain like a star which crosses through the air with its light, spreads its flames on the Horizon and then vanishes rapidly into naught. They appeared in Spain to fill her suddenly with their activity and the fruit of their genius, and endowed her with a glorious glamour which enveloped her from the Pyrenees to Gibraltar and from the oceans to the Barcelona. But a burning love for liberty and independance, a fickle character disposed to frivolty and merriness, neglect of old virtues, an unfortunate disposition of revolution, provoked always by an inflamed imagination, violent passions and ambitions, a spirit to dominate, and other factors of decay, worked in the course of time, to demolish this grand edifice raised by men like Tariq, 'Abdul Rahman al-Nasir, Muhammad ibn al-Ahmer, and led the Arabs to internal dissention, which sapped their power and pushed them to the abyss of naught.

"Millions of Moors quitted Spain carrying their property and arts - the patrimony of a state. What have the Spaniards created in their place? We could say nothing, but an eternal sorrow fills this land in which the gayest natures breathed before. Indeed there are some ruined monuments which still look upon these gloomy districts, but a real cry resounds from the depths of these monuments and ruins: honour and glory to the conquered Moor and decay and misery to the victorious Spaniard!"

Gustav Lebon

"For five to six hundred years general books in Arabic language and particularly on various disciplines have been almost the only source of learning and teaching in the European universities. And we can safely assert that in certain disciplines like medicine the impressions of the Arabs are still at work in Europe. The medical writings of Ibn Sina (Avicenna) have been explained about the close of the last century in Monabiliah."

"Roger Bacon, Leonard, Erno Al Felquni, Raymond Lot, San Thoma, and Azfonish X Qashqani have solely depended on Arabic Books."

Renan
"Albert, the Great, is indebted to Ibn Sina and San Thoma owes it all to Ibn Rushd (Averroes)."

Homeld on Science

"It was the Arabs who for the first time invented the method of chemical preparation of medicines, and it was from this source that sound advice and the procedure of experiments came to us, which were taken up by the School of Saliram and from there after a long time spread to southern Europe. The medicine and the natural elements on which medication entirely depends became the cause of study of plants' Chemistry. In this way both these studies went on simultaneously in two different ways and thus the door on a new era of the study of this science was opened by the Arabs. Suffice it for the proof of the vast Arab knowledge of the plant kingdom that they made addition of two thousand herbs to those of Zulefuredas. There were many herbs in their pharmacy that the Greeks had not even dreamt of."

Sideo

"During the middle ages, the Arabs alone were the standard-bearers of a civilisation."

"When the Arabs gained expertise in Astronomy, they paid special attention to Mathematical sciences and gained a high degree of excellence and they were really our teachers in this field....When we take stock of all that got transferred from Arabic to Latin, we find that a great doorway was made in the name of Gerbert Sylvester II, through which during the period between 970-980 AD, all those sciences he had acquired in Andalusia had entered Europe."

..."Our searching gaze rests on the Malikite Law, since we have had contacts with Africa, and France had ordered its competent learned men to translate into French the short compendium on Fiqh (jurisprudence) compiled by Ishaq bin Yaqub (d. 1242 AD, his book titled "Kitab-e-Khalil")

..."For full six hundred years his (Ibn Sina, Avicenna) works held sway over the educational institutions of Europe. His book Al-Qanun (Canon) was translated in five volumes and had repeated reprints, since the instruction in the universities of France and Italy totally depended on it."

Martin Hume in 'Spanish People'

"The Sultan Abd-er-Rahman was one of the Heaven-sent rulers of men. Prompt yet cautious in council and in war, unscrupulous, overbearing and proud, he was as ready to wreak terrible vengeance, as he was politic to forgive when it suited him. Berber and Yamanite alike acknowledged that at last they had found their master....He ruled until his death, in 788, with the tempered severity, wisdom, and justice which made his domain the best organized in Europe, and his capital the most splendid in the world."

S.P. Scott in 'The History of the Moorish Empire in Europe.'

"Yet there were knowledge and learning everywhere except in Catholic Europe. At a time when even kings could not read or write, a Moorish king had a private library of six hundred thousand books. At a time when ninety-nine percent of the Christian people were wholly illiterate, the Moorish city of Cordova had eight hundred public schools, and there was not a village within the limits of the empire where the blessings of education could not be enjoyed by the children of the most indigent peasant, ...and it was difficult to encounter even a Moorish peasant who could not read and write."

Thomson in 'The Muslims in Andalusia.'

Europe was darkened at sunset, Cordova shone with public lamps; Europe was dirty, Cordova built a thousand baths; ..., Cordova changed its undergarments daily; Europe lay in mud, Cordovas streets were paved; Europes palaces had smoke-holes in the ceiling, Cordovas arabesques were exquisite; Europes nobility could not sign its name, Cordovas children went to school; Europes monks could not read the baptismal service, Cordovas teachers created a library of Alexandrian dimensions. (800-1000 C.E.)

Dozy in 'The Moslems in Spain.'

Cruel and fanatical, the Leonese rarely gave quarter; when they captured a town they usually put all the inhabitants to the sword. Tolerance such as that accorded by the Muslims to the Christians could not be expected of them.

H. Kamen, 'The Spanish Inquisition.'

"As a result of his (Cardinal Ximenes' coercive) endeavours, it is reported that on l8th December 1499 about three thousand Moors were baptized by him and a leading mosque in Granada was converted into a church. 'Converts' were encouraged to surrender their Islamic books, several thousands of which were destroyed by Ximenes in a public bonfire. A few rare books on medicine were kept aside for the University of Alcala...(Ximenes) claimed...the Moors had forfeited all their rights under the terms of capitulation (of Granada). They should therefore be given the choice between baptism and expulsion...At Andarax the principal mosque, in which the women and children had taken refuge, was blown up with gun-powder...all books in Arabic, especially the Qur'an, were collected to be burnt...Cardinal Ximenes:...was reported during his conversion campaign among the Granada Moors in 1500 to have burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla over 1,005,000 volumes including unique works of Moorish culture."

H.C. Lea, 'The Moriscos of Spain.'

"...that cemeteries could be established near the churches changed from mosques, but old Christians were not to be debarred from burial there if they wished....it continued until 1591 when it was ordered that they should be buried inside of the churches, which was so abhorrent to them that they vainly offered more than thirty thousand ducats if king or pope would allow them to be interred elsewhere, even though in dunghills.

"... tailors were not to make garments nor silver-smiths jewels after their (Moorish) fashion; their baths were prohibited; all births were to be watched by Christian midwives to see that no Moorish rites were performed; disarmament was to be enforced by a rigid inspection of licences; their doors were to be kept open on feast-days, Fridays, Saturdays, and during weddings, to see that Moorish rites were abandoned and Christian ones observed...no Moorish names were to be used and they were not to keep 'gacis' or unbaptised Moors either free or as slaves."

[andalusian]

[QUOTE=Civis Batavi;277684][FONT="Georgia"]
The Alhambra could actually be a monument for Spain's victory over the invaders: build by Christian slaves, on Spanish soil, taken back by Spain. There should be a big Spanish flag flying over it as an " in your face" and His Majesty should be having his monthly dinner in the Court of Lions served by Islamic servants but no.
=============================


The invaders !! well, I cant accept this word because the Muslims after 800 years were NOT the invaders, they were the rightful owners of Iberia, in fact, by the 10th century most of the native iberians converted to Islam, so how can we call these natives who chose Islam as their religion as invaders !

The reconquista was A CIVIL WAR between native spanish from different faiths.

The catholic church managed to erase the wonderful majestic achievements of Islam in Iberia by calling Islam presense there as invasion ! temporary ! this is outright BULLSHIT and must be challenged and corrected.

[perikolez]

[QUOTE=Civis Batavi;277684][FONT="Georgia"]
The Alhambra could actually be a monument for Spain's victory over the invaders: build by Christian slaves, on Spanish soil, taken back by Spain. There should be a big Spanish flag flying over it as an " in your face" and His Majesty should be having his monthly dinner in the Court of Lions served by Islamic servants but no.
=============================


The invaders !! well, I cant accept this word because the Muslims after 800 years were NOT the invaders, they were the rightful owners of Iberia, in fact, by the 10th century most of the native iberians converted to Islam, so how can we call these natives who chose Islam as their religion as invaders !

The reconquista was A CIVIL WAR between native spanish from different faiths.

The catholic church managed to erase the wonderful majestic achievements of Islam in Iberia by calling Islam presense there as invasion ! temporary ! this is outright BULLSHIT and must be challenged and corrected.

Most of the spaniards didnt convert to islam. Most of the actual spaniards are the descendants of the christian people from the north that colonized the south during reconquista , and they are 30-40 millions. How many spanish islamic descendants are now in islamic countries? . I dont think that they are more that 5 millions.

[andalusian]

[QUOTE=andalusian;278118]

Most of the spaniards didnt convert to islam. Most of the actual spaniards are the descendants of the christian people from the north that colonized the south during reconquista , and they are 30-40 millions. How many spanish islamic descendants are now in islamic countries? . I dont think that they are more that 5 millions.

That is not true, I refer you to Thomas F.Glick in his book: Islamic and Christian Spain the early middle ages, he proved that by 1009 more than 3/4 of native iberians have converted to islam, this is western non muslim source.
This fact proves again that the reconquista was indeed a CIVIL WAR between native spaniards, it was not a war against the invaders, the invaders were less than 12000 soldeirs, the rest were native iberians who converted to Islam.

I have plenty of Islamic sources which say the same thing but of course I prefer to present non muslim sources to avoid the bias judgement from some members here.


http://libro.uca.edu/ics/chart1.jpg
Please see the attachment from his book
http://libro.uca.edu/ics/emspain.htm

[Comte Arnau]

The invaders !! well, I cant accept this word because the Muslims after 800 years were NOT the invaders, they were the rightful owners of Iberia, in fact, by the 10th century most of the native iberians converted to Islam, so how can we call these natives who chose Islam as their religion as invaders !


They were invaders, no matter the number. The Goths had also been relatively few in number and that doesn't make them less invaders. The Romans were also invaders. Even Celts and Iberians might have been invaders at their time.

People love saying that Iberia was Muslim for 800 years. What the jahannam? The Reconquista began right from the start. In the Northern half, there were areas where a Muslim hardly ever set his foot, and even the most Muslimized northern areas weren't so for more than 300 years. All in all, the same span of time that Iberia was Goth. Already in the 1230's, the only Muslim area was Granada. In all justice, the Goths had as much if not a bigger impact, in spite of it being diminished or underrated nowadays for some obscure reason. Not that I deny the impact of the Muslim period in southern Iberia, I'm not that blind. But things shouldn't be exaggerated, either in one way or the other.

Civil war? Come on. Faith was the only common element for Christians in the North and Muslims in the South, there was no political unity between the kingdoms. Even later, when Crowns began to be formed, the level of local independence was high enough to consider them rather like a sort of federated lands under the rule of the same king. It was even worse in the Caliphate, where almost every lordship was sovereign. No civil war whatsoever. Back then, as it is still today, religion was used as the perfect cover to start a war and gain control over another inch of land.

[Ibericus]

I smell troll here, I smell South-American troll...A spanish arab yeah..GTFO

[Ibericus]

[FONT="Georgia"]
The Alhambra could actually be a monument for Spain's victory over the invaders: build by Christian slaves, on Spanish soil, taken back by Spain. There should be a big Spanish flag flying over it as an " in your face" and His Majesty should be having his monthly dinner in the Court of Lions served by Islamic servants but no.
=============================


The invaders !! well, I cant accept this word because the Muslims after 800 years were NOT the invaders, they were the rightful owners of Iberia, in fact, by the 10th century most of the native iberians converted to Islam, so how can we call these natives who chose Islam as their religion as invaders !

The reconquista was A CIVIL WAR between native spanish from different faiths.

The catholic church managed to erase the wonderful majestic achievements of Islam in Iberia by calling Islam presense there as invasion ! temporary ! this is outright BULLSHIT and must be challenged and corrected.
ANd you are just a desperate Indian or moorish troll, but it's not true that Muslims lasted 800 years. Only the Reyno de Granada lasted 800 years, most of Iberia lasted only 200-300 years. And the ethnic moors were always a minority, even in Granada.

[andalusian]

They were invaders, no matter the number. The Goths had also been relatively few in number and that doesn't make them less invaders. The Romans were also invaders. Even Celts and Iberians might have been invaders at their time..

You can say invaders to describe the 12.000 muslim solderis who crossed with Tariq ben ziad to spain in 711, but you cant use the same term for the muslims and the native iberians who converted to islam who lived there for 800 years.



People love saying that Iberia was Muslim for 800 years. What the jahannam? The Reconquista began right from the start. In the Northern half, there were areas where a Muslim hardly ever set his foot, and even the most Muslimized northern areas weren't so for more than 300 years. All in all, the same span of time that Iberia was Goth. Already in the 1230's, the only Muslim area was Granada. In all justice, the Goths had as much if not a bigger impact, in spite of it being diminished or underrated nowadays for some obscure reason. Not that I deny the impact of the Muslim period in southern Iberia, I'm not that blind. But things shouldn't be exaggerated, either in one way or the other.

The reconquista did not start from 711 AD, this is nonesense, many christian spanish kings from the north came to Cordoba during the reigen of Abdul Rahman III to offer their loyalty to the muslim crown, which reconquista you are talking about !



Civil war? Come on. Faith was the only common element for Christians in the North and Muslims in the South, there was no political unity between the kingdoms.

It was civil war, the christians were fighting NATIVE iberians, NATIVES who chose Islam as their faith, it was their land, their homes, so in this sense, it was civil war.

got the point !



Even later, when Crowns began to be formed, the level of local independence was high enough to consider them rather like a sort of federated lands under the rule of the same king. It was even worse in the Caliphate, where almost every lordship was sovereign. No civil war whatsoever. Back then, as it is still today, religion was used as the perfect cover to start a war and gain control over another inch of land.

I think you dont really know much about the history of Muslim Spain.
My dear friend, the lordship in Muslim spain was formed ONLY AFTER the fall of the Umayyad caliphate in 1039 AD not before.

Any comment on the fact that i presented about conversion to islam by native iberians !

[Ibericus]

You can say invaders to describe the 12.000 muslim solderis who crossed with Tariq ben ziad to spain in 711, but you cant use the same term for the muslims and the native iberians who converted to islam who lived there for 800 years.

WRONG. Only Granada lasted 800 years. Most of Iberia lasted only 300 years .

[andalusian]

ANd you are just a desperate Indian or moorish troll, but it's not true that Muslims lasted 800 years. Only the Reyno de Granada lasted 800 years, most of Iberia lasted only 200-300 years. And the ethnic moors were always a minority, even in Granada.

Please refrain from personal attacks because this show how week you are in your argument.

The muslim presense in Iberia lasted for 800 years wether you like it or not, it does not matter your opinion, what matters here are the FACTS.

The first muslim to enter Iberia was a commander called TARIF ( the city tarifa got its name form him ) that was in 711 AD, the last muslim who left officially was Abo Abdullah Al Saghir the king of Granada in January 2nd, 1492 AD , so if you are good at math you will see it is about 800 years.

Although some muslims remained there until 1609 AD when they were ETHINCALLY CLEANSED by the spanish king.

Facts are Facts wether you agree or not. does not matter.

[andalusian]

WRONG. Only Granada lasted 800 years. Most of Iberia lasted only 300 years .

WRONG, Cordoba for example lasted 500 years and so Sevile..get your facts right.

[Lábaru]

The first muslim to enter Iberia was a commander called TARIF ( the city tarifa got its name form him ) that was in 711 AD, the last muslim who left officially was Abo Abdullah Al Saghir the king of Granada in January 2nd, 1492 AD , so if you are good at math you will see it is about 800 years.
.

Muslims are now back in Spain do we begin to add them to these 8 centuries?

[Ibericus]

Please refrain from personal attacks because this show how week you are in your argument.

The muslim presense in Iberia lasted for 800 years wether you like it or not, it does not matter your opinion, what matters here are the FACTS.

The first muslim to enter Iberia was a commander called TARIF ( the city tarifa got its name form him ) that was in 711 AD, the last muslim who left officially was Abo Abdullah Al Saghir the king of Granada in January 2nd, 1492 AD , so if you are good at math you will see it is about 800 years.

Although some muslims remained there until 1609 AD when they were ETHINCALLY CLEANSED by the spanish king.

Facts are Facts wether you agree or not. does not matter.
1. You are in a european preservasionist forum. So get the fuck out of this forum and also get the fuck out of Spain and Europe.

2. Muslim rule didn't last 800 years in Ibera. Only the Reyno de Granada.

[andalusian]

Muslims are now back in Spain do we begin to add them to these 8 centuries?

Muslims are not in Spain because they wanted to be there, after all, the western way of life does not suit any muslim, they are there for economical reasons just like you spanish when you migrate to England and the north of europe to search for work, so no, dont add them.

[Lábaru]

Muslims are not in Spain because they wanted to be there, after all, the western way of life does not suit any muslim, they are there for economical reasons just like you spanish when you migrate to England and the north of europe to search for work, so no, dont add them.

Not true, there are Muslims Iberian. the recently lost, Mansur Escudero, and others like him.

[andalusian]

1. You are in a european preservasionist forum. So get the fuck out of this forum and also get the fuck out of Spain and Europe.

2. Muslim rule didn't last 800 years in Ibera. Only the Reyno de Granada.

I am EU citizen, no one on earth can deny my rights, I dont need your permission to come here or to leave, and I am not going to use the same language you are using because it is apparent, you have NO logic, no knowledge so you use personal attacks instead of rational conversation.

Your comments just show really the hatred and the bigotry in your soul...God help you my friend, you are full of hate....be careful, hate raises your blood pressure
:lightbul:

[Comte Arnau]

You can say invaders to describe the 12.000 muslim solderis who crossed with Tariq ben ziad to spain in 711, but you cant use the same term for the muslims and the native iberians who converted to islam who lived there for 800 years.

The fact that many native Christians converted to Islam once they had occupied the cities doesn't make Muslim Berbers less invaders, that's all.



The reconquista did not start from 711 AD, this is nonesense,

Muslims reached their maximum extent in 718. The Battle of Covadonga, traditional mark for the beginning of the Reconquista, took place in 722.


It was civil war, the christians were fighting NATIVE iberians, NATIVES who chose Islam as their faith, it was their land, their homes, so in this sense, it was civil war.

Again, a civil war takes place between members from the same country, it's a political term. Nations are not 'religion units', as you seem to imagine.


I think you dont really know much about the history of Muslim Spain.
My dear friend, the lordship in Muslim spain was formed ONLY AFTER the fall of the Umayyad caliphate in 1039 AD not before.

And I think you can't read very well. I said: "Even later, when Crowns began to be formed, the level of local independence was high enough to consider them rather like a sort of federated lands under the rule of the same king. It was even worse in the Caliphate, where almost every lordship was sovereign." I was clearly referring to later than the 12th century.




The muslim presense in Iberia lasted for 800 years wether you like it or not, it does not matter your opinion, what matters here are the FACTS.

The first muslim to enter Iberia was a commander called TARIF ( the city tarifa got its name form him ) that was in 711 AD, the last muslim who left officially was Abo Abdullah Al Saghir the king of Granada in January 2nd, 1492 AD , so if you are good at math you will see it is about 800 years.

And if you're good at geography, you'll understand that Granada, beautiful as it is, is not the whole of Iberia.

[andalusian]

Not true, there are Muslims Iberian. the recently lost, Mansur Escudero, and others like him.

Yes, those are natives who converted to Islam, shall you consider them europeans ! some mindless racists here dont see them as europeans !!!

[Ibericus]

I am EU citizen, no one on earth can deny my rights, I dont need your permission to come here or to leave, and I am not going to use the same language you are using because it is apparent, you have NO logic, no knowledge so you use personal attacks instead of rational conversation.

Your comments just show really the hatred and the bigotry in your soul...God help you my friend, you are full of hate....be careful, hate raises your blood pressure
:lightbul:
I don't give a rat ass about the EU. We are gonna make a second Reconquista and kick you all out again , sooner or later...

[andalusian]

The fact that many native Christians converted to Islam once they had occupied the cities doesn't make Muslim Berbers less invaders, that's all.

As I said, the real invaders were only 12000 muslim soldeirs, the rest after that, were the rightful owners of Iberia.




Muslims reached their maximum extent in 718. The Battle of Covadonga, traditional mark for the beginning of the Reconquista, took place in 722.

Oh really ! what about the christian kings who came to Cordoba to offer their loyalty to Abdul Rahman III in 930s AD !!!



Again, a civil war takes place between members from the same country, it's a political term. Nations are not 'religion units', as you seem to imagine.

And the reconquista was a war between members of the SAME country, it seems you are not getting the point...the muslims there were NATIVE IBERIANS from the SAME land.



And if you're good at geography, you'll understand that Granada, beautiful as it is, is not the whole of Iberia

We are talking about muslim presence in Iberia as a whole, granada is in iberia, isnt !!

[Comte Arnau]

Yes, those are natives who converted to Islam, shall you consider them europeans ! some mindless racists here dont see them as europeans !!!

That would be a good question.

Who would consider this girl European, who wouldn't?

http://be-votaciones.iespana.es/miss5/melilla-t12.JPG

Nationality: Spanish
Religion: Muslim

[andalusian]

I don't give a rat ass about the EU. We are gonna make a second Reconquista and kick you all out again , sooner or later...

very interesting !! with your ageing population, you would be only grateful for the muslims to pay your pensions !

:p

[Ibericus]

Iberia was fist pagan Celtic and pagan pre-Indoeuropean, and then Chrisitan. Under the Muslim rule they were FORCED to convert for the taxes, and not because they wanted to convert to this shitty religion called Islam...

[andalusian]

Anyway, I presented the facts that some bigots and haters would not like to read, but for others who have minds and brains, it is a chance to read the other side of the story.

ciao

[Lábaru]

Yes, those are natives who converted to Islam, shall you consider them europeans ! some mindless racists here dont see them as europeans !!!

but then that means we must add the previous eight centuries ?

[Lábaru]

very interesting !! with your ageing population, you would be only grateful for the muslims to pay your pensions !

:p

:eek::eek::eek:

[Ibericus]

very interesting !! with your ageing population, you would be only grateful for the muslims to pay your pensions !

:p
Because our stupid governments should be promotting the reproduction of the Native Iberians, that's the solution for ageing, not bringing third-world immigrants.

[Comte Arnau]

As I said, the real invaders were only 12000 muslim soldeirs, the rest after that, were the rightful owners of Iberia.

So? An invasion is not a substitution of a population by another. A little number can gain control over a territory, and that is what has usually happened in History.


Oh really ! what about the christian kings who came to Cordoba to offer their loyalty to Abdul Rahman III in 930s AD !!!

You really think it was always Christians vs Muslims? There were also alliances in the North of a Christian kingdom with a Muslim lordship in order to fight another Christian kingdom. As I say, religion has always been an excuse, what matters is power. This doesn't mean that the Reconquista didn't start in the very 8th century.


And the reconquista was a war between members of the SAME country,

Which one?


it seems you are not getting the point...the muslims there were NATIVE IBERIANS from the SAME land.

They were all from the same peninsula, that's right. But I insist, a civil war is a political term, not a geographical one.


We are talking about muslim presence in Iberia as a whole, granada is in iberia, isnt !!

Lol. Socrates was a man, Socrates was gay, then all men are gays...

[andalusian]

Because our stupid governments should be promotting the reproduction of the Native Iberians, that's the solution for ageing, not bringing third-world immigrants.

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D

[Lábaru]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D

in Cantabria we have inmigracción 4%, few Moors and is going great, much better than in areas with a high index of Moors. We are ready to begin anew the reconquest

[The Lawspeaker]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D
That's about the very last thing we need. We need you lot out of here and less people to start with.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/La_rendición_de_Granada.jpg


NOTE: I only started this thread as to see what the real and imagined effects were. And I feel like starting over the whole thread. Simply denial (without sources where it actually came from) or some muzzie troll doesn't do it for me.

Can someone remove this carpetmuncher (No Averrhoës: I am not talking about you) from this thread and preferably from this forum, please ?

[Comte Arnau]

Anyway, I presented the facts that some bigots and haters would not like to read, but for others who have minds and brains, it is a chance to read the other side of the story.

When they can be clearly contested, they are not facts. And yes, having a mind and brain means that we won't accept a lie just because you'd like to.


ciao

Ila liqa.

[Ibericus]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D
Sorry, we don't want more monkeys. Your women are very ugly, and they all have like 12 children. Our country and Europe is overpopulated. More natural space, and less people, that's what we need.

[Svanhild]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D
Excuse me, but how long Muslim morons or Muslim trolls are allowed to post here? He should be banned at sight.

[Smaland]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D

Fuhgeddaboudit. :)

[poiuytrewq0987]

What? Europe didn't collapse completely after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was still the Byzantine Empire who carried on Roman traditions and teachings.

[The Lawspeaker]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D
It's high time for a European jihad against you lot. Europe Akhbar, m.thafucka !

[The Lawspeaker]

You hear it, ye faithful, let's chase those infidels from our lands. 72 virgins, limitless amounts of beer and pork chops for those sons of Europe that fall in our Sacred Jihad !
Lady Libertas smiles upon you !

[Crossbow]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D

Well Andalusian go rape your own dirty filth whores, just ejaculate on the floor and the flies will take care of the rest. Get lost m*therf*cker!

[Ibericus]

Eat this motherfucker, if you are spanish :

http://www.jamondepatanegra.com/tienda/images/jamon_iberico_de_bellota_jabugo_pata_negra_pataneg ra.jpg

[Lábaru]

He can start courting Inessa.

[Smaland]

Muslim men would be very happy to help you re produce !! :D :D :D :D

I am a declared enemy of Islam; yesterday, today, and forever.

[Crossbow]

very interesting !! with your ageing population, you would be only grateful for the muslims to pay your pensions !

:p

Your fantastic muslims won't pay for our pensions, they are only interested in social welfare fraud and parallel societies where they earn their money illegally. And this money surely is not used to pay for our communities, it is only intended for your own communities and not seldom for islamist/terror purposes. By the way :Muslims are in NO WAY Iberian natives, they just invaded the country. You can give up your pc-leftist views, we all know what they are worth. With Muslims we're in a one-way communication.

[Falkata]

Seneca was hardly a Spaniard as the Spanish of today didn't even exist as a people.

lol then why you ask for spanish geniuses from before the invasion? :confused:
It´s something impossible

[The Lawspeaker]

lol then why you ask for spanish geniuses from before the invasion? :confused:
It´s something impossibleI meant "Iberian" in that respect. Visigoths.

[Korbis]

Can´t someone just ban the IP of this twat (andalusian)? I´m sick of the anti spanish troll clons though I must admit their persistence is quite praiseworthy.

[San Galgano]

Heroes of Lepanto.
Since 1571.

http://digilander.libero.it/shinano/Battaglienavali/lepanto/venier.jpg

[Falkata]

"Spain was muslim during 800 years" I´m always wtfed with this stupid afirmation. Galicia was muslim how many years? 15? 20? Just Andalusia is Spain? :confused:

[Korbis]

What amazes me is that nobody seems to claim that Portugal was Muslim too. What, our fellow neighbours doesn´t even deserve the attention of this dirty ragheads? I would be upset if I was portuguese.

[Lábaru]

Western Andalusia was conquered in the twelfth century

[Treffie]

How Nordic are Andalusians?

:angel

[Lábaru]

How Nordic are Andalusians?

:angel

More than the South of Germany

[Falkata]

More than Stockholm

[Korbis]

How Nordic are Andalusians?

:angel



You tell me !


http://www.telecinco.es/content/maincontent/4495/C_2_maincontent_4495_largeimage.jpg

[Comte Arnau]

How Nordic are Andalusians?

:angel

The interesting question would be: How Iberic are Swedes?

[San Galgano]

You tell me !


http://www.telecinco.es/content/maincontent/4495/C_2_maincontent_4495_largeimage.jpg


No...they are berbers with a lot of make up mate.

[Vasconcelos]

What amazes me is that nobody seems to claim that Portugal was Muslim too. What, our fellow neighbours doesn´t even deserve the attention of this dirty ragheads? I would be upset if I was portuguese.
Quite!

They were virtually expelled as early as 1249 tho.

[Comte Arnau]

http://www.arteguias.com/imagenes4/reconquista.gif

[Ibericus]

How Nordic are Andalusians?

:angel
Is this another way of asking how moorish are andalusians ? Or it's only my sick mind..:rolleyes:

[Treffie]

Is this another way of asking how moorish are andalusians ? Or it's only my sick mind..:rolleyes:

Yep, it's your sick mind, I'm afraid, I wuz jus trollin` :p

[Groenewolf]

He can start courting Inessa.

If he tried that she would probably knee him and then trow him in the pile of droppings on a pig farm.

I will see if I am willing to get this tread back on a more serious note this weekend. Alto I rather spend the time to study and do some creative work then getting in to that mud pit again.:coffee: