Viking DNA Results In Normandy

[Ilma]

http://s1.lprs1.fr/images/2015/06/16/4864417_vikings_1000x625.jpg

Viking DNA Results In Normandy,

May 18, 2016

A genetic study has determined that some of todays Normans are probably descendants of the Vikings.

Do the Normans really have Vikings ancestors?

A lot of places in Normandy have names of Viking origin including the local people. A genetic study conducted in the Cotentin region wanted to determine the biological portion of this Scandinavian heritage. Here are the first results.

ANCESTORS. “Men of the North”, such is the literal meaning of the word “Norman”. And the term used to describe the inhabitants of Normandy and their descendants. It was once used to talk about the Vikings, the Scandinavian people who landed on the French coast of the English Channel at the end of the first millennium AD.

Can the Normans today still boast of being the direct descendants of those dreaded Nordic warriors of the Middle Ages? “It could be or not”, The first results of the genetic study were announced Thursday, April 21, 2016. It was a collaboration between British and French researchers, known as the “Viking DNA Project” aims to determine if the Normans contain a “signature” left by the Vikings. Now, this signature is not always clear.

The Viking DNA Signature

Researchers are interested in Normandy because it is the only sustainable political foundation established by the Vikings on the mainland. Scientists have also focused their study on the population of the Cotentin peninsula because the density of places and people whose names are of Scandinavian origin is particularly strong. “We were interested in men with surnames with Scandinavian-sounding that could reflect this legacy: names such as Anquetil, Dutot, Equilbec, Gonfray, Ingouf, Lanfry, Osouf, Osmont, Quetel, Tougis, Tostain, Raoult and their many variations, explains Richard Jones of the University of Leicester. We have also retained only people whose four grandparents were born and lived within 50 km of their current home. This stable residence is often indicative of a longer history of the family in one area.” In the end, the researchers selected according to these criteria, 89 men. They were asked to complete a genealogical questionnaire and submit to a saliva test. The scientists then looked for a “Viking signature” on the Y chromosome (present only in males and passed from father to son) extracted from cells in saliva. Specifically, they were interested in genetic variations present on this chromosome.

“These changes can be grouped according to several criteria. This allows to classify an individual in a ‘haplogroup’ particular depending on the type of detected changes in their DNA,” said British historian.

Results? Of the 89 men who participated in the study, the vast majority (52) represented haplogroup R1b, the type of Y chromosome variations most common in Northern and Western Europe. Its origin, still unclear, is found on the side of shepherds from the plains north of the Black Sea who migrated to the West 4,000 years ago. There can’t, therefore, be a typical Viking signature. But without totally excluding it either: according to experts, this genetic variation could mean an indirect link with the Vikings. However, haplogroup I1, found in 11 of the Normans of the study, suggests more clearly a possible Viking ancestry (more direct this time).

These variations are indeed very present among the Scandinavians (over 45% of the population belongs to this genetic group in some areas). But a Germanic origin is also possible. In fact, “when we look at fingerprints’ underlying haplogroup I1, some Norman Y chromosomes show an affinity with the Germanic, while others show an affinity with the Scandinavians,” said Richard Jones. Still, “it’s very tempting to consider l1 as a mark left by the Vikings in Normandy because it is present in approximately the same proportions as those observed in other populations with known Viking history,” the searcher. Finally, 2 participants presented a haplogroup often regarded as typical Nordic: R1a. The other haplogroups found among the Normans are a priori unrelated to the Vikings. They are of other origins witnesses, particularly around the Mediterranean (including Sicily and southern Italy, the land that belonged to the Norman empire) and extending further eastward from the Middle East and Eastern Europe (going back perhaps to the Crusades).

These results are however not definitive, but they already reflect a high genetic diversity within the population of Cotentin. The researchers intend to refine their analysis of haplogroups in order to more clearly identify the geographic origins of each.

They also want to study another type of genetic material: mitochondrial DNA (inherited this time by the mother to her children), even more, complex to decipher. Finally, future methods of ancient DNA samples may enable to harvest DNA on Viking skulls: it will then be sufficient to compare this authentic DNA to that of the Normans to see if they are related, rather than attempting to trace the genetic trees following the traces of a possible Viking signature. “Knowledge of the genetic history of Normandy is still in its infancy!” Enthuses Richard Jones.

* Groupware matter between the University of Leicester (UK) and the Centre for Archaeological Research and Historical Ancient and Medieval UMR 6273 (CNRS / UCBN), University of Caen Lower Normandy (France).

Source :

-http://www.normandescendants.org/viking-dna-results-normandy/

[Ilma]

Acording to an older paper on the research they also found some Balkanic, Georgian and Armenian genetic markers among the samples.

Source : http://www.normandie-actu.fr/apres-10-mois-d-etude-de-l-adn-de-viking-dans-les-veines-d-habitants-de-normandie_198703/

[TheForeigner]

Weren't Vikings just a small minority in Normandy? That being the reason why they assimilated to French civilization. They are known to have intermarried from the begining with the natives.

[Ilma]

Weren't Vikings just a small minority in Normandy? That being the reason why they assimilated to French civilization. They are known to have intermarried from the begining with the natives.

No they were not a minority acording to the fact they founded the country in 911, vikings raids started during the 8th century but little by little they established there (called Neustria before). When the country was founded (and named "Normandy" meaning "Northmen country") they were already there and then more and more come to established in several big areas of Normandy.

A lot of them were farmers, they build great farms where they ruled population around and established their family. They brought also women here. These were new lands to farm, they developped good agriculture and were good rulers of their own places. They named the places were they established with the name of the family's father former, this is still nowadays, places (towns, villages, etc) called from the name of the former viking chief.

Others were great sailors and fishermen, they established a lot along the coast. They also named places with their names but above all they introduced a lot of norse terms for fishing and sea lexical, Norman language was developing.

[TheForeigner]

So you think French Normans are of majority Scandinavian ancestry?

[Ilma]

So you think French Normans are of majority Scandinavian ancestry?

Today we are 3,4 millions living in Normandy and I don't think so because pure native are less and less. People move to other regions in France for their studies or work, this is how french centralization works... Then people meet other french or other nationalities and they have babies with them. A lot of Normans today are half Norman / half something.

But if you take the direct line ancestry for people like these samples for the study, you find a majority having scandinavian or germanic ancestry yes.

Before vikings came in Normandy the local population and around was mainly frankish, then Germanic, that's why you find a lot of germanic genetic markers in Normandy. Descendants of vikings in Normandy established and breed but we can imagine later their descendants also breed with frankish descendants there.

EDIT : acording to wikipedia "They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, Saxons and indigenous Franks and Celts."

BEFORE vikings came :

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg/792px-Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg.png

WHEN vikings came and established :

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/804669normandievikingcarte.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=804669normandievikingcarte.jpg)

http://www.tassel.fr/norm_s~4.gif

AFTER vikings came, long lasting estabishment :

http://sig.normandie.fr/attachments/article/123/normandie11.jpg

Normandy TODAY (but the number is wrong, we're 3,4 millions) :

http://www.odianormandie.com/img/carte-normandie.jpg

Source :

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria
-http://www.patrimoine-normand.com/index-fiche-32349.html

[Aëlwenn]

Nice. Greatest territory of France :P

[Governor]

Also, are you able to post the nations which live around the Black Sea?

e.g How much Viking Dna do Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Georgians and Turks have?

[Ilma]

Also, are you able to post the nations which live around the Black Sea?

e.g How much Viking Dna do Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Georgians and Turks have?

Sorry I'm not, I found the results thanks to french and norman medias :(

Do you know if such studies have been made for the countries you quote ?

[Peterski]

Unfortunately there is nothing about subclades (sub-branches of haplogroups) in that study.

Saying that someone is - for example - R1b is a very "low resolution" result.

They should break it down into subclades. Like I did with R1b in Poland here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197051-R1b-M269-subclades-in-Poland&p=4103222&viewfull=1#post4103222

Why do they stop at this instead of figuring out the Terminal SNPs as well ???

I have this problem with my Y-DNA because I have four matches based on 37 STRs - and two of them are members of the Chisholm Clan from Scotland. But sadly, they did not test their Terminal SNPs, so I don't know if they are L617 like me or not. If they are not L617, then these are false matches (because SNPs are more reliable than STRs). All L617 men share a common direct paternal ancestor 4300 years ago, and many of L617 share an ancestor much earlier (e.g. 1000 years ago). But if someone is not L617 then they do not share a common direct paternal ancestor with me during the last 4300 years, even if we have similar STRs.

My matches (based on 37 STRs, these are my only Y-DNA matches among customers of FTDNA):

http://i.imgur.com/vdngyjC.png

^ They are members of Chisholm Clan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Chisholm#History


Origins:

According to a 19th-century historian, Alexander Mackenzie, the Clan Chisholm is of Norman and Saxon origin.[2]

Tradition stating that the Chisholms were a Norman family who arrived in England after the Norman conquest of 1066.[2] The original Norman name being De Chese to which the Saxon term "Holme" was added upon the marriage of a Norman ancestor to a Saxon heiress.[2] According to the Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia the Chishom name was known in the Scottish Borders since the reign of Alexander III of Scotland.[3] In early records the name is written as "de Cheseholme", eventually later becoming Chisholm.[2] In Scotland the earliest recorded person of the family is on the Ragman Rolls as "Richard de Chisholm del Counte de Rokesburgh", referring to the Clan Chisholm's seat in Roxburghshire.[2] One of the earliest recorded members of the family was John de Chesehelme, who in 1254 was mentioned in a bull of Pope Alexander IV.[3]

I guess I need to send e-mails to these guys and convince them to order R1b SNP Packs.

To see if they are also DF27>L617, or some other subclade (terminal SNP):

http://i.imgur.com/xRqytCP.png

[Ilma]

Unfortunately there is nothing about subclades (sub-branches of haplogroups) in that study.

Saying that someone is - for example - R1b is a very "low resolution" result.

They should break it down into subclades. Like I did with R1b in Poland here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197051-R1b-M269-subclades-in-Poland&p=4103222&viewfull=1#post4103222

Why do they stop at this instead of figuring out the Terminal SNPs as well ???

I have this problem with my Y-DNA because I have four matches based on 37 STRs - and two of them are members of the Chisholm Clan from Scotland. But sadly, they did not test their Terminal SNPs, so I don't know if they are L617 like me or not. If they are not L617 then it means that these are false matches (because SNPs are more reliable than STRs).

Chisholm Clan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Chisholm#History

Yes I agree with you, actually I'm looking for more precised results but they're still working on it I guess.

BTW they were not able to communicate the results to each person because that is forbidden in France and there was a polemical discussion about it. They are afraid of Normans would feel "viking / scandinavian pride" if they tell more. Welcome to the great french Republic. :picard1:

I've translated it this morning but forum was down and all has been lost :(

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/apres-10-mois-d-etude-de-l-adn-de-viking-dans-les-veines-d-habitants-de-normandie_198703/

[Aëlwenn]

Yes I agree with you, actually I'm looking for more precised results but they're still working on it I guess.

BTW they were not able to communicate the results to each person because that is forbidden in France and there was a polemical discussion about it. They are afraid of Normans would feel "viking / scandinavian pride" if they tell more. Welcome to the great french Republic. :picard1:

I've translated it this morning but forum was down and all has been lost :(

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/apres-10-mois-d-etude-de-l-adn-de-viking-dans-les-veines-d-habitants-de-normandie_198703/

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.

[Governor]

Sorry I'm not, I found the results thanks to french and norman medias :(

Do you know if such studies have been made for the countries you quote ?

I've found this, could be interesting for you and others.

Source: http://www.davidkfaux.org/files/WilliamsonNorseVikingDNAHeritage.pdf

It's saying about the Norman Vikings with R1a.

[Peterski]

Sir Humphfrey de Ogle (lived ca. 1055-1125) was probably R1b-DF27>L617.

And Baron Robert de Tyndall (born in 1120) was also probably R1b-DF27>L617.

This is based on Y-DNA of modern people who claim descent from those two.


It's saying about the Norman Vikings with R1a.

Typically Scandinavian branches are R1a-Z284 and also (less common) R1a-L664.

Edmund Drake (born in 1480) was R1a-L664. And his descendant - Francis Drake:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Drake

[Peterski]

How much Viking Dna do Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Georgians and Turks have?

It would be hard to tell apart Viking DNA from DNA of groups which migrated from Scandinavia (or Northern Europe) long before the Vikings. For example I1-M253 was long considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in ancient DNA of Anglo-Saxons. R1b-U106 is also often considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in Wielbark culture (Ancient Goths) in Iron Age Poland, long before the Viking Age.

The truth is that there is no any easily distinguishable Viking-specific DNA. They were not a "race". Perhaps you can tell if some DNA marker is Scandinavian. But Scandinavian is not necessarily Viking.

[Ilma]

It would be hard to tell apart Viking DNA from DNA of groups which migrated from Scandinavia (or Northern Europe) long before the Vikings. For example I1-M253 was long considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in ancient DNA of Anglo-Saxons. R1b-U106 is also often considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in Wielbark culture (Ancient Goths) in Iron Age Poland, long before the Viking Age.

The truth is that there is no any easily distinguishable Viking-specific DNA. They were not a "race". Perhaps you can tell if some DNA marker is Scandinavian. But Scandinavian is not necessarily Viking.

Yes I guess they were mainly considering the density of haplogroups they found to know if some were Scandinavian or not at all.

[Rethel]

Results? Of the 89 men who participated in the study, the vast majority (52) represented haplogroup R1b,

haplogroup I1, found in 11 of the Normans of the study,

:thumb001:

Who want to argue yet, that I1 is Viking hg? :picard2:


Acording to an older paper on the research they also found some Balkanic, Georgian and Armenian genetic markers among the samples.

Who want to yet argue, that Vikings were a "nation"...

[Neon Knight]

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.
Civic nationalism :bored:

[Mingle]

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.

Do many French people take pride in their regional identity?

[Peterski]

I don't know what is Petalpusher's ancestry (from which region of France are his ancestors?), but I compared his results in Eurogenes K15 calculator to results of a guy from Normandy (who says that he is fully Normand). This Normand guy's Y-DNA haplogroup is I1-L813>Y20861 which looks Scandinavian.

TMRCA - time of the most recent common ancestor - of this I1-Y20861 haplogroup was ca. 2000 years ago. And modern descendants of that common ancestor live e.g. in Sweden, France and Finland:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y20861/

So I must say that this Y-DNA lineage most probably came to Normandy with the Vikings.

As for autosomal DNA:

I also added my own results and ancient DNA results of one Swedish guy (sample called RISE174), who lived around years 427-611 AD, so not such a long time before the beginning of the Viking Age.

Based on this data it seems to me that the guy from Normandy is of mixed Celto-Germanic (Celtic and Scandinavian) descent. Compared to Petalpusher, the Norman guy is more Northern European:




Admixture (%)
Litvin
RISE174 (Sweden 427-611 AD)
Petalpusher
Normand


North Sea
22,24
40,24
30,17
32,91


Atlantic
19,65
31,48
26,53
31,65


Baltic
25,41
16,78
8,26
7,98


East Euro
18,22
10,88
7,23
7,6


West Med
5,35
0,28
19,41
12,56


West Asian
6,36
0
4,76
2,49


East Med
2,70
0
3,64
2,92


Red Sea
0,0
0,0
0,0
0,79


Amerindian
0,0
0,34
0,0
0,41



And here a PCA graph based on those results - as you can see, compared to Petalpusher the Normand guy is more shifted towards "North Sea" admixture, and also slightly more towards "Atlantic" admixture. On the other hand, he plots further away than Petalpusher from "West Med" and "East Med" admixtures:

For comparison, some more of modern people:

N. Dutch = North Dutch guy
Swede-Finn = mixed ancestry guy
Swede = ethnic Swedish guy

http://i.imgur.com/kTJeGsR.png

http://i.imgur.com/kTJeGsR.png

Oracle results for the Normand guy:

Single Population Sharing (note that South Dutch is 3rd, before French):

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 5.25
2 Southeast_English 5.88
3 South_Dutch 6.53
4 Irish 7.53
5 West_Scottish 8.04
6 French 8.34
7 Orcadian 9.27
8 North_German 9.52
9 Danish 9.59
10 North_Dutch 9.87
11 West_German 10.69
12 Spanish_Cataluna 13.36
13 Norwegian 13.47
14 West_Norwegian 14.12
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.61
16 Swedish 14.84
17 Spanish_Galicia 14.85
18 East_German 14.88
19 Spanish_Cantabria 15.21
20 Portuguese 15.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing (I think that #13 looks interesting):

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.3% Southeast_English + 21.7% French_Basque @ 1.45
2 68.1% West_Scottish + 31.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.83
3 66% West_Scottish + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.1
4 81% Southwest_English + 19% French_Basque @ 2.1
5 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% Southwest_French @ 2.24
6 68.1% North_Dutch + 31.9% French_Basque @ 2.24
7 68.8% Danish + 31.2% French_Basque @ 2.28
8 69.9% Irish + 30.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.28
9 72.7% West_Scottish + 27.3% French_Basque @ 2.3
10 68.2% West_Scottish + 31.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.3
11 75.5% Southeast_English + 24.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.31
12 63.2% Orcadian + 36.8% Southwest_French @ 2.33
13 59.6% West_Norwegian + 40.4% French_Basque @ 2.35
14 67.8% Irish + 32.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.42
15 65.1% Orcadian + 34.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.42
16 69.6% Orcadian + 30.4% French_Basque @ 2.44
17 74.4% Southeast_English + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 2.53
18 68.4% West_Scottish + 31.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.56
19 73.9% Southeast_English + 26.1% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.57
20 74.4% Irish + 25.6% French_Basque @ 2.63

=========================

Here are Eurogenes K15 results of some other ancient samples (apart from RISE174):

1) Ancient Germanic Scandinavian samples:

http://i.imgur.com/eD9Uy0g.png

Gedmatch / Sample / Dating / Country / Number of SNPs

RISE94 lived ca. 2621-2472 BC in Sweden
RISE61 lived ca. 2650-2300 BC in Denmark
RISE98 lived ca. 2275-2032 BC in Sweden
RISE71 lived ca. 2196-2023 BC in Denmark
RISE97 lived ca. 2025-1885 BC in Sweden

RISE174 lived ca. 427-611 AD in Sweden

http://i.imgur.com/eD9Uy0g.png

2) Ancient British and Central European Celts:

(Hinxton-4 = British, Rathlin-1 = Irish, the rest = Central European Unetice culture):

http://i.imgur.com/vbHmNLJ.png

[Enflamme]

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.

:thumb001:

But anglophones and foreigners in Europe do not understand this and are obliged to adopt the same ideological software as that of the Republic : "Good french looking" or "Very french!" or "I love french people!", etc.

We have the impression, when we read them, that there are no Breton, Picard, Alsatian, Gascon, & c. And that the different phenotypes related to these different ethnic groups do not exist, nor the different cultures and no provincial languages!

It's sad, Republican software is so ingrained in the minds of people here and outside.

It is the same in Italy: I saw people adopted the same software, when I speak them about Sardinia these people told me that "Yeah it's Italian, in Italia, etc.", whereas genetically, culturally and in the language c ' Is totally different! I hate this software which allows to remove in the head of people the different ethnic groups. Ethnic groups are not recognized and we spit on their identity when they are told that in fact their country is only a piece of territory of the Republic of France or Italy.

Look at this fucking picture from a "nationalist" Facebook page (Filles d'Europe):
https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/14568070_645541728952088_7675252351920553582_n.jpg ?oh=6366fb555d7661776882d437c2ce2713&oe=58B15D31

THIS IS NOT FUCKING ITALY, GET OUT WITH YOU FUCKING REPUBLICANISM OF SHIT

[Peterski]

So you think French Normans are of majority Scandinavian ancestry?

Rather not majority, but probably a significant percent.

If they had majority, they would be closer to Swedes and North Dutch (and ancient Scandinavians):

http://i.imgur.com/RVjjPKs.png

http://i.imgur.com/RVjjPKs.png

[Tchek]

I don't know what is Petalpusher's ancestry (from which region of France are his ancestors?),

If I remember well, Petalpusher is from Lyon with a little bit of British ancestry somewhere.

[Neon Knight]

Yes I agree with you, actually I'm looking for more precised results but they're still working on it I guess.

BTW they were not able to communicate the results to each person because that is forbidden in France and there was a polemical discussion about it. They are afraid of Normans would feel "viking / scandinavian pride" if they tell more. Welcome to the great french Republic. :picard1:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/80/5d/bd/805dbd25fd3807931b55ad12c76717e2.jpg

[Neon Knight]

Not strictly on topic (and apologies to those who've seen it before) but this map from the People of the British Isles project shows the autosomal genetic similarties between Britain and France. The dark blue 17 is a major DNA element in both Normans and Bretons. The light blue 14 seems to be very Breton.

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version_zpswv5 8tnlo.jpg

[Dick]

MY COUSIN IS HALF FRENCHIE AND HIS FATHER'S SIDE IS MOSTLY OF NORMAN ANCESTRY. HE DID TESTS INCLUDING A Y-DNA TEST AND HIS SUBCLADE IS I1-L22>P109 WHICH IS THE MOST COMMON I1 SUBCLADE IN SCANDINAVIA, CALLED "ULTRA NORDIC" BY NORDVEDT AND FTDNA.

THIS IS WHERE HIS SURNAME IS MOST COMMON IN FRANCE:

http://www.namespedia.com/img/France/Schraen.jpg

[Ilma]

MY COUSIN IS HALF FRENCHIE AND HIS FATHER'S SIDE IS MOSTLY OF NORMAN ANCESTRY. HE DID TESTS INCLUDING A Y-DNA TEST AND HIS SUBCLADE IS I1-L22>P109 WHICH IS THE MOST COMMON I1 SUBCLADE IN SCANDINAVIA, CALLED "ULTRA NORDIC" BY NORDVEDT AND FTDNA.

THIS IS WHERE HIS SURNAME IS MOST COMMON IN FRANCE:

http://www.namespedia.com/img/France/Schraen.jpg

Then Norman ancestry from Chti / Dutch ancestry. Schraen is not Norman.

[Tchek]

Schraen is a Flemish name.

[Ilma]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/80/5d/bd/805dbd25fd3807931b55ad12c76717e2.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU

Hehehe ;)

[Petalpusher]

There s significant Norse ancestry in Normandy, but not because of some hg proportions, specially without any subclades. This is the dumbest study they could have possibly came up with, the hg are not so different than other regions for instance. There s as much l1 in Lyon than in Caen, so pretty useless way to assess any kind of specific ancestry, of course they had all sorts of haplo either way.

In autosomal it's clear Normands have some but it seems it also varies depending on the location in Normandy. The region is kinda huge, i mean it's larger than Slovenia, and divided in 5 subregions or high/low Normandie. I ve seen a few who are basically between the French and Norwegian average, also close to UK overall, and some others with more average admixture for France or the northern half let's say.

Bretons for example are barely different than the average, so i guess it really depends on the individuals and the exact location of their ancestry, probably comes down to where the biggest settlements have been and/or more founder effects.

[GoneWithTheWind]

Scandinavians have many different hgs. They are pred. I1, r1b and r1a and also some N. There is no viking hg.

[Dick]

Scandinavians have many different hgs. They are pred. I1, r1b and r1a and also some N. There is no viking hg.

WELL OF COURSE. THERE'S EVEN AN ODD SUBCLADE OF Q IN SCANDINAVIA AND THE ORKNEY ISLANDS. SOME GENETICISTS SAY THE Q SUBCLADE ON THE ISLAND ARE FROM VIKINGS

[Fantomas]

Weren't Vikings just a small minority in Normandy? That being the reason why they assimilated to French civilization. They are known to have intermarried from the begining with the natives.
Vikings were a small minority there, just in period of their raids in the first fourth of the 10th century. As a result of the series of wars in 911-920's Vikings were almost completely cut out by either Celtic armies and local Celtic home guard as well, from Bayeux for example, small remnants of Norman gangs were captured, baptized and accepted own vassalage to French king. Usually Scandinavian migrants were under huge pressure in western Europe, and when English or French powers had a chance to arrange genocide of Scandianvians they used it.

[Fustan]

Acording to an older paper on the research they also found some Balkanic


I guess its true that you can never escape the balkanites...

[Ilma]

I guess its true that you can never escape the balkanites...

Actually now I know Normans settled a few in some Balkanites countries such as Albania, Serbia and Croatia. There are today there some people carrying the haplogroup and subclade of Normans which have settled there. Maybe some returned to Normandy with people from there ?

[Ibericus]

The genetic of Normans (close to English and Dutch) has probably more to do with the geographic context of Normandy rather than to Viking input. The Vikings didn't migrate en masse, they were just about a few thousand raiders.

The study should focus more on rare alelles found in modern Scandinavians, to look for real Viking input, not on some broad and widespread haplogroups, which are found everywhere in Europe.

[Ilma]

Vikings were a small minority there, just in period of their raids in the first fourth of the 10th century. As a result of the series of wars in 911-920's Vikings were almost completely cut out by either Celtic armies and local Celtic home guard as well, from Bayeux for example, small remnants of Norman gangs were captured, baptized and accepted own vassalage to French king. Usually Scandinavian migrants were under huge pressure in western Europe, and when English or French powers had a chance to arrange genocide of Scandianvians they used it.

Actually you forget that Normandy was founded by vikings chiefs which have settled here after the French King signed the Treaty of Saint-Clair sur Epte in autumn 911. Charles the Simple currently King of France was afraid of vikings raids from Normandy to Paris and Chartres, vikings were highly a threat for French Kingdom. That's why Charles the Simple said them to stop and gave them the Neustria area which has been called "Northmandy, Normannia" from Northmen (Norsemen) settlement.

Charles the Simple recognized Rollo and his men legit rulers of this land as they accepted to be baptised as catholics and no more pagans (truth is they still behaved as pagans after that lol, anyway) and to defend France against other invasions as allies of French Kingdom. Charles the Simple also gave his daugter Gisella for marriage with Rollo, as an alliance between Normandy and Frankish Kingdom.

Since that Normandy was a legit duche ruled by vikings chiefs and farmers ruling their areas overthere. Otherwise vikings settled in many areas, they built farms and others were mainly fishermen, sailors and merchants.

All the following chiefs and rulers of Normandy were descendants from vikings chiefs of that period. To mention the most famous, William the Conqueror was the son of Robert I the Magnificient, Duke of Normandy, son of Richard II the "Good" Duke of Normandy, son of Richard I "the Fearless", great Jarl of Normandy, son of Vilhjálmr Langaspjót (William I Longsword) second Ruler of Normandy, son of Rollo the First Ruler of Normandy.

About the rest of population, acording to Wiki : "There were two distinct patterns of Norse settlement in the duchy. In the Danish area in the Roumois and the Caux, settlers intermingled with the indigenous Gallo-Romance-speaking population. Rollo shared out the large estates with his companions and gave agricultural land to his other followers. Danish settlers cleared their own land to farm it, and there was no segregation of populations.

In the northern Cotentin on the other hand, the population was purely Norwegian. Coastal features bore Norse names as did the three pagi of Haga, Sarnes and Helganes (as late as 1027). The Norwegians may even have set up a þing, an assembly of all free men, whose meeting place may be commemorated in the name of Le Tingland.

Within a few generations of the founding of Normandy in 911, however, the Scandinavian settlers had intermarried with the natives and adopted much of their culture. In the 11th century, the anonymous author of the Miracles of Saint Wulfram referred to the formation of a Norman identity as "shaping [of] all races into one single people"

This is what I repeat all the time lol, Norvegians at Western Normandy and Danes at Northern Normandy and central coast. I shared a map about settlement, I guess this was already on that thread but anyway people don't read back... so for a reminder :

SCANDINAVIAN SETTLEMENT IN NORMANDY :

http://www.viking.no/e/france/norm_s~4.gif

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Saint-Clair-sur-Epte
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Normandy
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Normandy#Norse_settlement

[Ilma]

The genetic of Normans (close to English and Dutch) has probably more to do with the geographic context of Normandy rather than to Viking input. The Vikings didn't migrate en masse, they were just about a few thousand raiders.

The study should focus more on rare alelles found in modern Scandinavians, to look for real Viking input, not on some broad and widespread haplogroups, which are found everywhere in Europe.


About the first raids from 855, they were several thousands of Norsemen acording to the book Viking Trade and Settlement : https://books.google.fr/books?id=moFItudb2msC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=scandinavian+settlement+normandy&source=bl&ots=W3VQf5cSWT&sig=QSn2GgRzX5JHEdDAnHXeFnOHfIg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3vITu6vPQAhXBPxoKHXfgAR4Q6AEINDAC#v=on epage&q=scandinavian%20settlement%20normandy&f=false

The fact is there were in military camps for weeks and years overthere but we need to find numbers about HOW many there were AFTER they settled totally and legally in 911 (creation of the Duche of Normandy, when Rollo gave to his men lands to rule and farm overthere).

"What was the Scandinavian contribution in Normandy ? Concerning the population, it is not easy to define its amplitude, all the more since Scandinavian colonisation was superimposed on a strong Frankish and Saxon substratum, whose cultural and ethnic characteristics were very close to the Scandinavians' own.

As far as we can judge, the density of Scandinavian settlements and population was patchy. From the place name evidence, it seems that some areas were left free of Scandinavian settlement but the coastal regions of Pays de Caux and Cotentin were heavily populated by them. Also important, but to a lesser degree, was settlement of the Seine valley, the Plain of Caen and Bessin.

The Scandinavian impact is clearly seen at the level of Norman state organisation, particularly where this concerned legal matters such as the establishment of Norman customary law (one of the main bases of present 'Anglo-Saxon law', as against 'Roman law'), and also at the political level.

Normandy received from the Vikings a strong moral stamp. One can detect psychological features which are characteristic of the Normans and which were attributed to Old Scandinavians: pragmatism, sense of nuance, reserve, prudence and mistrust, the importance of keeping ones word, a sense of order, individualism, craftiness, a taste for concrete materialism, a willingness to take risks and to adventure.

The Scandinavian contribution has been clearly established in the Norman dialect , particularly in the maritime vocabulary (which was thereafter transmitted, almost completely and intact, to the French language). The Norse language seems to have been spoken in the duchy for a little more than a century; there was even a 'university' at Bayeux in the 11th century to teach it. Eventually, the language became amalgamated with the native Romance languages (Frankish and Latin), resulting in a new 'Norman' language. This 'Norman' language became, in the 14th/15th centuries, a base for what we now know as the French language.

The Scandinavian linguistic influence is to be found again as elements in numerous Norman place names, with endings such as -tot (farm), -thuit (cleared area), -bec (stream), -dal or -dalle (valley), or with hogue (hill, mound), londe (wood), nez (cape or headland), etc., and the ending -ville (from Latin villa): Gonneville, Hatainville, Omonville, Tourville, and so on. These place names are mainly derived from Scandinavian personal names, or from landscape features or other descriptors.

Finally, many Scandinavian personal names survive nowadays through family names such as Angot, Anquetil, Burnouf, Toustain, Turgis, Thouroude, Yngouf, and many more. "

Source : http://www.viking.no/e/france/contribution.html

[Fantomas]

Actually you forget that Normandy was founded by vikings chiefs which have settled here after the French King signed the Treaty of Saint-Clair sur Epte in autumn 911. Charles the Simple currently King of France was afraid of vikings raids from Normandy to Paris and Chartres, vikings were highly a threat for French Kingdom. That's why Charles the Simple said them to stop and gave them the Neustria area which has been called "Northmandy, Normannia" from Northmen (Norsemen) settlement.

Charles the Simple recognized Rollo and his men legit rulers of this land as they accepted to be baptised as catholics and no more pagans (truth is they still behaved as pagans after that lol, anyway) and to defend France against other invasions as allies of French Kingdom. Charles the Simple also gave his daugter Gisella for marriage with Rollo, as an alliance between Normandy and Frankish Kingdom.

Since that Normandy was a legit duche ruled by vikings chiefs and farmers ruling their areas overthere. Otherwise vikings settled in many areas, they built farms and others were mainly fishermen, sailors and merchants.

All the following chiefs and rulers of Normandy were descendants from vikings chiefs of that period. To mention the most famous, William the Conqueror was the son of Robert I the Magnificient, Duke of Normandy, son of Richard II the "Good" Duke of Normandy, son of Richard I "the Fearless", great Jarl of Normandy, son of Vilhjálmr Langaspjót (William I Longsword) second Ruler of Normandy, son of Rollo the First Ruler of Normandy.

About the rest of population, acording to Wiki : "There were two distinct patterns of Norse settlement in the duchy. In the Danish area in the Roumois and the Caux, settlers intermingled with the indigenous Gallo-Romance-speaking population. Rollo shared out the large estates with his companions and gave agricultural land to his other followers. Danish settlers cleared their own land to farm it, and there was no segregation of populations.

In the northern Cotentin on the other hand, the population was purely Norwegian. Coastal features bore Norse names as did the three pagi of Haga, Sarnes and Helganes (as late as 1027). The Norwegians may even have set up a þing, an assembly of all free men, whose meeting place may be commemorated in the name of Le Tingland.

Within a few generations of the founding of Normandy in 911, however, the Scandinavian settlers had intermarried with the natives and adopted much of their culture. In the 11th century, the anonymous author of the Miracles of Saint Wulfram referred to the formation of a Norman identity as "shaping [of] all races into one single people"

This is what I repeat all the time lol, Norvegians at Western Normandy and Danes at Northern Normandy and central coast. I shared a map about settlement, I guess this was already on that thread but anyway people don't read back... so for a reminder :

SCANDINAVIAN SETTLEMENT IN NORMANDY :

http://www.viking.no/e/france/norm_s~4.gif

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Saint-Clair-sur-Epte
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Normandy
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Normandy#Norse_settlement

Treaty of 911 was the result of Norman defeat and its details are known just from Dudon de Saint-Quentin interpretation, own historian of Normandian dukes, many years ago, so there're some doubts about its authenticity. Read contemporary historains, like Richer of Reims and Flodoard. There was a cruel annihilation of Norse migrants, just like in England, and local populations took a very active part in this massacre of 924-925.

And if all result of Scandianvian influence is limited by those three paragraphs from Wiki, so its not surprising that just right after 920's their self-identity was completely Celtic/French.

[Ilma]

Treaty of 911 was the result of Norman defeat and its details are known just from Dudon de Saint-Quentin interpretation, own historian of Normandian dukes, many years ago, so there're some doubts about its authenticity. Read contemporary historains, like Richer of Reims and Flodoard. There was a cruel annihilation of Norse migrants, just like in England, and local populations took a very active part in this massacre of 924-925.

And if all result of Scandianvian influence is limited by those three paragraphs from Wiki, so its not surprising that just right after 920's their self-identity was completely Celtic/French.

First thing : there was no Normandy at this moment, only Norsemen raiding overthere.

Second thing : "Norman defeat" you mean Norsemen defeat, Norsemen defeat of exactly the Battle of Chartres in August 911 far southern than Normandy (Neustria at the moment) and far from Paris.

Norsemen were raiding farther to see what they can get overthere, they were already present in Neustria successfully. They took risks to go farther but that was not necessary and they still were organised in military camps in Neustria were no one gave a fuck about them overthere. Locals were not rebellious against them, they were military stronger than them.

The treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte was a strategic accord and alliance for the Frankish king to have strong allies and stop them before they raid again AGAINST Paris.

They were both winners to sign this treaty.

Chartres, Battle of Chartres :

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/941655CHARTRES.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=941655CHARTRES.jpg)

Third thing : celtic tribes ? In 911 Neustria was Frankish land and mainly Frankish ethnicity from 4-5 centuries yet. If you want to talk about french take a moment to talk about Frankish people not "french" that means actually nothing.

Already talked about that here : http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?197044-Viking-DNA-Results-In-Normandy&p=4103210&viewfull=1#post4103210

[Robocop]

Not only that Normans made impact on Normandy in terms of people and genetic make up, but they made impact on British and Irish island as well :D, FROM NORMANDY, now you can only imagine what kind of impact is on Normandy today.

Talking about UK from point of invasion from Normandy:

In 1066, Duke William II of Normandy conquered England killing King Harold II at the Battle of Hastings. The invading Normans and their descendants replaced the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling class of England. The Anglo-Normans continued their expansion to Scotland (from 1072), Ireland (from 1169) and Wales (from the late 1200's). Thanks to their status and wealth, Norman noblemen left a greater number of offspring than the commoners, and as a result managed to leave a noticeable genetic impact.

For example, Norman surnames now make up 10% of all modern Irish surnames and even exceed 30% of all patronyms in Counties Wexford and Waterford, where the Normans first settled in the 12th century. Genetic genealogy tests have confirmed that Germanic Y-DNA haplogroups in the region are usually linked to Norman surnames (e.g. I1 for Powers, R1b-U106 for Roche and Sinclair). The reverse is not always true though, as some Irishmen took Norman names for social reasons.

In Scotland, the Nomans founded several clans, known as the Scoto-Norman clans (Bruce, Comyn, Crawford, Fraser, Grant, Hall, Hay, Hunter, Innes, Jardine, Kerr, Menzies, Montgomery, Murray, Ramsay, Sinclair, Stewart, Sutherland), many of which would rise to the Scottish peerage, and some even provide future kings (Robert the Bruce, House of Stewart).

And about Normandy itself, there is no doubt today Normandy is in fact a Viking colony/descendants in France, everythin started ofcourse In the early 10th century, a Viking contingent made up of Danes and Norwegians, Norse–Gaels and Anglo-Danes sailed up the Seine River and laid siege on Paris. In exchange for not sacking the city, the King of France granted them land in northwest France if Rollo, the leader of the Norsemen accepted to become his vassal. This was born the Duchy of Normandy. The Norsemen adopted Christianity and the local Gallo-Romance language, from which evolved Anglo-Norman. They mixed extensively with the local French population and even accepted Frenchmen as part of their nobility.

[Fantomas]

First thing : there was no Normandy at this moment, only Norsemen raiding overthere.

Second thing : "Norman defeat" you mean Norsemen defeat, Norsemen defeat of exactly the Battle of Chartres in August 911 far southern than Normandy (Neustria at the moment) and far from Paris.

Norsemen were raiding farther to see what they can get overthere, they were already present in Neustria successfully. They took risks to go farther but that was not necessary and they still were organised in military camps in Neustria were no one gave a fuck about them overthere. Locals were not rebellious against them, they were military stronger than them.

The treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte was a strategic accord and alliance for the Frankish king to have strong allies and stop them before they raid again AGAINST Paris.Chartres, Battle of Chartres :

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/941655CHARTRES.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=941655CHARTRES.jpg)
No, when i'm talking about Norse defeats and genocide i mean not just battle of Chartres but series of wars between 911 and 920's. Read primary sources, not just Wiki or viking.no :)



They were both winners to sign this treaty.
It doesn't matter who was vassal of French power there at that period of time if not any Norsman so someone else. So the "winner" were just one: Rollo's dinasty, they were able to survive and got right to stay in France, provided total accimilation.



Third thing : celtic tribes ? .
That's contemporary's historians words, not mine. From the other side Norman identity that you're tryin to propose here was not still invented at that time, so we should be historically accurate

Anglo-Saxon chronicles 1066


There was slain king
Harold, and Leofwin the earl, his brother, and Girth the
earl, his brother, and many good men ; and the Frenchmen
had possession of the place of carnage, all as God granted
them for the people's sins

[Rethel]

"french" that means actually nothing.

First time I have to stand on defend the term french :)

French means: my oldest known ancestor was from frogeatersland :p

Since genetic era began, it means: R1 who's the oldest
known ancestor was from this what we called France.

I doubt if someone can traced unbrokenly himself to Gauls,
Franks, Romans... maybe to Normans can, few to Franks...

[Ilma]

Not only that Normans made impact on Normandy in terms of people and genetic make up, but they made impact on British and Irish island as well :D, FROM NORMANDY, now you can only imagine what kind of impact is on Normandy today.

Talking about UK from point of invasion from Normandy:

In 1066, Duke William II of Normandy conquered England killing King Harold II at the Battle of Hastings. The invading Normans and their descendants replaced the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling class of England. The Anglo-Normans continued their expansion to Scotland (from 1072), Ireland (from 1169) and Wales (from the late 1200's). Thanks to their status and wealth, Norman noblemen left a greater number of offspring than the commoners, and as a result managed to leave a noticeable genetic impact.

For example, Norman surnames now make up 10% of all modern Irish surnames and even exceed 30% of all patronyms in Counties Wexford and Waterford, where the Normans first settled in the 12th century. Genetic genealogy tests have confirmed that Germanic Y-DNA haplogroups in the region are usually linked to Norman surnames (e.g. I1 for Powers, R1b-U106 for Roche and Sinclair). The reverse is not always true though, as some Irishmen took Norman names for social reasons.

In Scotland, the Nomans founded several clans, known as the Scoto-Norman clans (Bruce, Comyn, Crawford, Fraser, Grant, Hall, Hay, Hunter, Innes, Jardine, Kerr, Menzies, Montgomery, Murray, Ramsay, Sinclair, Stewart, Sutherland), many of which would rise to the Scottish peerage, and some even provide future kings (Robert the Bruce, House of Stewart).

And about Normandy itself, there is no doubt today Normandy is in fact a Viking colony/descendants in France, everythin started ofcourse In the early 10th century, a Viking contingent made up of Danes and Norwegians, Norse–Gaels and Anglo-Danes sailed up the Seine River and laid siege on Paris. In exchange for not sacking the city, the King of France granted them land in northwest France if Rollo, the leader of the Norsemen accepted to become his vassal. This was born the Duchy of Normandy. The Norsemen adopted Christianity and the local Gallo-Romance language, from which evolved Anglo-Norman. They mixed extensively with the local French population and even accepted Frenchmen as part of their nobility.

Thanks a lot for that quality post and for talking about other lands as well to consider the "viking" imput in terms of genetics :)

About Normandy I can add since the Duchy was legit and ruled by Norsemen chiefs and farmers, they were actually really independant from Frankish Kingdom.

The rulers were called Dukes in french but actually they were called Jarl overthere and considered as powerful as Princes.

They signed to adopt christianity but truth is they still behaved as pagans for 2 or 3 generations. I mean they kept their customs, the "more danico" (danish marriage) allowing them to have two wives (one legit by christian marriage and having children for strategic alliance, second one "frilla" as real lover chosen wife and effetive concubine), kept their law system, instauring the "Thing" there, Dukes were actually considered and called "Jarl" of Normandy etc.

Lol their way to chose a frilla, lover/second wife, was to capture her, omg... and no marry her by christian marriage at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_danico

Ironically Rollo (Hrólfr) the first Jarl of Normandy and the most pagan of all even if baptised is burried in my current town in the Cathedral. When I come to visit him I smile wondering "what would you think about being trapped forever in this beautiful catholic Cathedral, dear Rollo ?" ;)

Acording to Adémar de Chabanne (medieval monk and writer, 989-1034) Rollo made blòt (human sacrifices) for the Gods as a Jarl before to die.

He never considered Charles the Simple as more powerful than him, the day they signed the Treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte, Charles the Simple asked him to kiss his feet. Lol, he said no way, never, so he asked one of his men to do instead of him. The norseman took up the foot of Charles the Simple so high he fell down and all norsemen laughed at the "poor fallen King", obviously lol.

After the Treaty another anecdote : two knights of the Frankish Kingdom came to Rouen in order to rate if Gisela the daughter of the King was well treated and if Rollo was ruling corretly, good christian, etc lol, he learnt they were walking around without his autorisation to enter Normandy and ordered to cut off their head in the public place.

To talk about William the Conqueror again, he was actually the FIRST one of his dynasty (descendant from Rollo) to STOP this pagan way of living. He totally adopted Christianism and was very good Christian. He fell in love with Mathilda (from Flanders) but she was too close cousin to be allowed to marry him. So, he built for the Pope great churches and abbeys to ask her hand and be allowed to marry her as a Christian. He did and the Pope allowed them to marry. He had no second wife, only her. He suffered from the more danico actually himself because he was the son of the previous Duke but son of the lover spouse (frilla), not the christian wife. They were considered as legit spouses by Norman laws but he was in troubles as a christian to prove he was legit Duke. I guess this is why he decided to stop himself this more danico and was so faithful.

About paganism you find today in Normandy a lot of places, towns etc called with a reference to Norse Gods : "Auzouville" from "Asulfr" : the Wolf of Ases (Heathen Gods). Also patronymic names you still find nowadays such as "Turquetil" from "Thorketill" : Thor's Helmet.

[Tschaikisten]

Nice thread.
About Normans in Balkans (espesially among the Serbs).
There is like a 9,95% of I haplogroup among the Serbs for now (Drobnjak tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci) - I1 P109, Macure tribe I1 Z63, and few tested people which belongs to other branches of I haplogroup).
I1 P109 is going to be like a 90% of Serbian I.
I1 P109 is also called ''Adriatic Norman'', because it arrived here by Norman invasion in Balkans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Norman_wars).
According to some calculations, like 400,000 of Serbs are I1 P109.
This is how it arrives here.
Clossest Serbian P109 matches are from Sicily and Belarus.
http://i.imgur.com/eA9n8vq.jpg
Highest % of I and P109 generally are in southwestern Serbia/southeastern Bosnia/Northwestern Montenegro (25% from Prijepolje (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prijepolje) are tested to it), and it's connected with Drobnjak clan migrations(from their area in Montenegro).
This map shows % of I tested people in Serbian DNA Project (http://dnk.poreklo.rs/?lang=lat).
http://www.macure.net/Content/Images/Genetika/I1-Srbi.jpg
Serbian king Constantine Bodin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_Bodin) wife (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaquinta_of_Bari)was been Norman.

[Robocop]

Thanks a lot for that quality post and for talking about other lands as well to consider the "viking" imput in terms of genetics :)

About Normandy I can add since the Duchy was legit and ruled by Norsemen chiefs and farmers, they were actually really independant from Frankish Kingdom.

The rulers were called Dukes in french but actually they were called Jarl overthere and considered as powerful as Princes.

They signed to adopt christianity but truth is they still behaved as pagans for 2 or 3 generations. I mean they kept their customs, the "more danico" (danish marriage) allowing them to have two wives (one legit by christian marriage and having children for strategic alliance, second one "frilla" as real lover chosen wife and effetive concubine), kept their law system, instauring the "Thing" there, Dukes were actually considered and called "Jarl" of Normandy etc.

Lol their way to chose a frilla, lover/second wife, was to capture her, omg... and no marry her by christian marriage at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_danico

Ironically Rollo (Hrólfr) the first Jarl of Normandy and the most pagan of all even if baptised is burried in my current town in the Cathedral. When I come to visit him I smile wondering "what would you think about being trapped forever in this beautiful catholic Cathedral, dear Rollo ?" ;)

Acording to Adémar de Chabanne (medieval monk and writer, 989-1034) Rollo made blòt (human sacrifices) for the Gods as a Jarl before to die.

He never considered Charles the Simple as more powerful than him, the day they signed the Treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte, Charles the Simple asked him to kiss his feet. Lol, he said no way, never, so he asked one of his men to do instead of him. The norseman took up the foot of Charles the Simple so high he fell down and all norsemen laughed at the "poor fallen King", obviously lol.

After the Treaty another anecdote : two knights of the Frankish Kingdom came to Rouen in order to rate if Gisela the daughter of the King was well treated and if Rollo was ruling corretly, good christian, etc lol, he learnt they were walking around without his autorisation to enter Normandy and ordered to cut off their head in the public place.

To talk about William the Conqueror again, he was actually the FIRST one of his dynasty (descendant from Rollo) to STOP this pagan way of living. He totally adopted Christianism and was very good Christian. He fell in love with Mathilda (from Flanders) but she was too close cousin to be allowed to marry him. So, he built for the Pope great churches and abbeys to ask her hand and be allowed to marry her as a Christian. He did and the Pope allowed them to marry. He had no second wife, only her. He suffered from the more danico actually himself because he was the son of the previous Duke but son of the lover spouse (frilla), not the christian wife. They were considered as legit spouses by Norman laws but he was in troubles as a christian to prove he was legit Duke. I guess this is why he decided to stop himself this more danico and was so faithful.

About paganism you find today in Normandy a lot of places, towns etc called with a reference to Norse Gods : "Auzouville" from "Asulfr" : the Wolf of Ases (Heathen Gods). Also patronymic names you still find nowadays such as "Turquetil" from "Thorketill" : Thor's Helmet.

A quality post from you as well, as usual :).

[Petalpusher]

First time I have to stand on defend the term french :)

French means: my oldest known ancestor was from frogeatersland :p


Rethel? It's an actual town in the Ardennes. People there are called Rethélois not Rethelid, if so you need an update.

[Aëlwenn]

French National Education system and his propaganda want to destroying any diversity, except non european's one.
Denying Vikings colonization is stupid. The raids and installations of Vikings settlers began before the tittle of Rollo and continued afterwards.
I can't understand why people want to minimize the impact of Viking colonization.

[Rethel]

Nice thread.
About Normans in Balkans (espesially among the Serbs).
There is like a 9,95% of I haplogroup among the Serbs for now (Drobnjak tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drobnjaci) - I1 P109,


:picard2:

The oldest I1 was found on the
Balkans. Just stop it, please...

[Dick]

:picard2:

The oldest I1 was found on the
Balkans. Just stop it, please...

MORE LIKE CENTRAL EUROPE, NOT THE BALKANS.


The earliest sign of haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2014). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml





I1 L22-P109 IS THE SCANDINAVIAN SUBCLADE OF I1 BUT THEN AGAIN YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT VARIOUS SUBCLADES LET ALONE Y-DNA IN GENERAL. SHOW US YOUR Y-DNA RESULTS. EVERYONE ELSE HAS. WHAT'S THE BIG SECRET?

ONCE AGAIN YOU'VE PROVEN THAT YOU'RE JEALOUS OF HAPLOGROUP I :laugh2:

[Rethel]

MORE LIKE CENTRAL EUROPE, NOT THE BALKANS.

The Balkan region:

http://www.fabian-vendrig.eu/fileadmin/Balkans/maps/balkans.jpg



I1 L22-P109 IS THE SCANDINAVIAN SUBCLADE OF I1 BUT THEN AGAIN YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT VARIOUS SUBCLADES LET ALONE Y-DNA IN GENERAL.

It has 4000+ years...
It can be there since the beginning, partialy went
with Goths, Slavs, germanic slaves, and whatever.
Viking possibility is the less probable, simply improbable.

I see, how much idea you have.

[Dick]

I see, how much idea you have.

POLISH EAST EURO IRONY. L22- P109 IS THE SCANDINAVIAN SUBCLADE OF I1 WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT, KEEP BEING JEALOUS. IT IS EVEN CALLED 'ULTRA-NORDIC' BY GENETICISTS LIKE KENNETH NORDVEDT.

SHOW US YOUR Y-DNA RESULTS. EVERYONE ELSE HAS. WHAT'S THE BIG SECRET

[Robocop]

The Balkan region:

http://www.fabian-vendrig.eu/fileadmin/Balkans/maps/balkans.jpg



Rethel you really surprise me sometimes lol..., this map you posted is before 1991, this is the right map of today Demographics of Croatia, and Bosnia & Herzegovina in last 20 years:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ahhvxfp78O4/UD4Cen-0L9I/AAAAAAAAB8s/gf370Z9j0kM/s1600/Ethnic%2Bmap%2BCroatia%2Band%2BBosnia%2Band%2BHerz egovina.PNG

So if you wanna show Demographics of Croatia, Bosnia or Serbia, plz show how it is for decades now, not from Yugoslavia :).

Greets

[Peterski]

These are the two oldest known samples of I1 haplogroup:

StF11 - Stora Förvar, Sweden - ca. 7500-7250 years ago
BAB5 - Balatonszemes, Hungary - ca. 7600-6900 years ago

Both of them lived before the bottleneck of people with I1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck

That took place, according to YFull, around 4700 years ago:

http://i.imgur.com/QqPGPkY.png

After the bottleneck, we have samples of I1 from Sweden:

RISE179 - Abekas, Sweden - ca. 4000-3800 years ago
RISE207 - Angmollan, Sweden - ca. 3500-3300 years ago
RISE210 - Angmollan, Sweden - ca. 3450-3300 years ago
RISE175 - Abekas, Sweden - ca. 3400-3150 years ago

[Rethel]

Rethel you really surprise me sometimes lol..., this map you posted is before 1991, this is the right map of today Demographics of Croatia, and Bosnia & Herzegovina in last 20 years:

So if you wanna show Demographics of Croatia, Bosnia or Serbia, plz show how it is for decades now, not from Yugoslavia :).

Greets

Read please, once again, for what purouse I putted her here... :picard1:

Moreover, I ask you: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1477046657/3295447-1-dont-be-a-dick-bro.jpg :laugh:

[GoneWithTheWind]

The Balkan region:

http://www.fabian-vendrig.eu/fileadmin/Balkans/maps/balkans.jpg




It has 4000+ years...
It can be there since the beginning, partialy went
with Goths, Slavs, germanic slaves, and whatever.
Viking possibility is the less probable, simply improbable.

I see, how much idea you have.

That map is inaccurate.

Anyway, there were some normans that settled in Albania too and were asimilated.

Viking ancestry can even be found among Turks and Italians.

[Robocop]

Read please, once again, for what purouse I putted her here... :picard1:

Moreover, I ask you: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1477046657/3295447-1-dont-be-a-dick-bro.jpg :laugh:

Oh, ok, sorry I just woke up haha.

[Robocop]

That map is inaccurate.

Anyway, there were some normans that settled in Albania too and were asimilated.

Viking ancestry can even be found among Turks and Italians.

This would be good map (perfect map in fact) of Demographics in Ex-Yugoslavia, means till 1991:

https://www.rastko.rs/istorija/srbi-balkan/img/fry4b.jpg

[Fantomas]

French National Education system and his propaganda want to destroying any diversity, except non european's one.
Denying Vikings colonization is stupid.

No one denies diversity and Viking colonization. Every small village has own singularity and self-identity. The problem is history falsification basing on anecdotes, copy pasting of groundless texts and maps from controversial sites, statements about French aristocrats paganism and using pseudo-historical terms like "Anglo-Normans" with total disregard of historical sources.



The raids and installations of Vikings settlers began before the tittle of Rollo and continued afterwards.I can't understand why people want to minimize the impact of Viking colonization.
There's no reason to minimize impact of Viking colonization. This is the historical fact. After taking power Frenchman William the Conqueror, following old good Christianic, French, English, Scottish, Irish tradition carried through general slaughter of Vikings, turning their last stronghold in the north of England into desert, thus completing what Ethelred II started 70 years before him. Annihilation of Scandinavian colonists in Western Europe is the matter of fact.

[Aëlwenn]

No one denies diversity and Viking colonization. Every small village has own singularity and self-identity. The problem is history falsification basing on anecdotes, copy pasting of groundless texts and maps from controversial sites, statements about French aristocrats paganism and using pseudo-historical terms like "Anglo-Normans" with total disregard of historical sources.


There's no reason to minimize impact of Viking colonization. This is the historical fact. After taking power Frenchman William the Conqueror, following old good Christianic, French, English, Scottish, Irish tradition carried through general slaughter of Vikings, turning their last stronghold in the north of England into desert, thus completing what Ethelred II started 70 years before him. Annihilation of Scandinavian colonists in Western Europe is the matter of fact.


He has never been a Frenchman. William the conqueror, Duke of Normandy and King of England.
Nothing French about him.
Been French is just a generic term, French and France term regroup diverse ethnicity like Norman, Breton, Alsatian, Picards etc etc.
You talking like if the Kingdom of France has always been the actual France.
France is a diverse country about ethnicity ( I don't talking about non white ) because it's a country founded by many another kingdoms and lands. The true original Kingdom of Franks is far away smaller.
And it's the French republican propaganda who want to deformed the reality about Vikings settlers.
It's not controversial sites or neo paganist, it's true historian and archeologist.
The way you use term of Frenchman for William the Conqueror is very silly.
First you don't know very well the real history, and second you use exactly the worst republican propaganda.

[Fantomas]

He has never been a Frenchman. William the conqueror, Duke of Normandy and King of England.
Nothing French about him.
Been French is just a generic term, French and France term regroup diverse ethnicity like Norman, Breton, Alsatian, Picards etc etc.
You talking like if the Kingdom of France has always been the actual France.
France is a diverse country about ethnicity ( I don't talking about non white ) because it's a country founded by many another kingdoms and lands. The true original Kingdom of Franks is far away smaller.
And it's the French republican propaganda who want to deformed the reality about Vikings settlers.
It's not controversial sites or neo paganist, it's true historian and archeologist.
The way you use term of Frenchman for William the Conqueror is very silly.
First you don't know very well the real history, and second you use exactly the worst republican propaganda.
Once again, read primary textual sources! Not just pro-normanist modern speculations!

[Ilma]

Once again, read primary textual sources! Not just pro-normanist modern speculations!

You can't be anything else than a troll...

:picard1:

[Peterski]

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/archeo-paleo/archeologie/les-normands-ont-ils-reellement-pour-ancetres-les-vikings_102912&usg=ALkJrhgme4ah2SHTRdvmYqwgVP4yJGj5RQ


(...) Results? Of the 89 men who participated in the study, the vast majority (52) represented haplogroup R1b, the most common type of Y chromosome variation in Northern and Western Europe. Its origin, still unclear, is to be sought from the shepherds of the steppes north of the Black Sea who immigrated to the West 4000 years ago. It can not therefore be a typically Viking signature. But without excluding it completely either: according to experts, this genetic variation could mean an indirect link with Vikings.

On the other hand, haplogroup I1, found in 11 of the Normans of the study, more clearly suggests a possible Viking ancestry (more direct this time). These variations are very present in Scandinavians (more than 45% of the population belongs to this genetic group in certain regions). But a Germanic origin is also possible. In fact, " when we look at the underlying" footprints "of haplogroup I1, some Norman Y chromosomes show an affinity with the Germanic, while others reveal an affinity with the Scandinavians, " says Richard Jones. However, it is very tempting to consider I1 as a mark left by the Vikings in Normandy, as it is present in approximately the same proportions as those observed in other populations with a known Viking history , " adds the searcher. Finally, two participants presented a haplogroup often considered as typically Nordic: R1a. The other haplogroups found in the Normans are a priori unconnected with the Vikings. (...)

Indeed. Most of R1b is not even Germanic, and I1 could be either Viking or other Germanic. I1 could be from the Franks or any other Germanic group, it doesn't have to be a Viking marker. The resolution of this research is simply too low to say anything definite about the % of Viking lineages.

There was a lot of I1 among Non-Viking, Iron Age ancient Germanic groups:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212617-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA-coming-soon&p=4498708&viewfull=1#post4498708

East Germanic samples, Iron Age Poland - 50% frequency of I1.

Görzig in Saxony-Anhalt, in 300-500 AD - 58% frequency of I1.

[Wrong]

Great, informative thread.

[jingorex]

G1 were the real vikings.

I and R were only sub-lings of the original G.

The fact they are so rare today is proof enough to this organism.

[Dick]

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.sciencesetavenir.fr/archeo-paleo/archeologie/les-normands-ont-ils-reellement-pour-ancetres-les-vikings_102912&usg=ALkJrhgme4ah2SHTRdvmYqwgVP4yJGj5RQ



Indeed. Most of R1b is not even Germanic, and I1 could be either Viking or other Germanic. I1 could be from the Franks or any other Germanic group, it doesn't have to be a Viking marker. The resolution of this research is simply too low to say anything definite about the % of Viking lineages.

There was a lot of I1 among Non-Viking, Iron Age ancient Germanic groups:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212617-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA-coming-soon&p=4498708&viewfull=1#post4498708

East Germanic samples, Iron Age Poland - 50% frequency of I1.

Görzig in Saxony-Anhalt, in 300-500 AD - 58% frequency of I1.

There's no mention of subclades which would be more useful. It's all about the subclades, haplotards.


P109 is a Scandinavian subclade of I1 and it is found in Normandy and it obviously derives from Vikings.


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/I1-L22-tree.png

[jingorex]

There's no mention of subclades which would be more useful. It's all about the subclades, haplotards.


P109 is a Scandinavian subclade of I1 and it is found in Normandy and it obviously derives from Vikings.


http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/I1-L22-tree.png

Haplogroup R and I served cleaning chamber pots and brushing down horses for their O.G. lords.

[Dick]

Haplogroup R and I served cleaning chamber pots and brushing down horses for their O.G. lords.

I love you.

[Rethel]

P109 is a Scandinavian subclade of I1 and it is found in Normandy and it obviously derives from Vikings.

What if continental Germans were from Scandinavia?
We have many such examples, like Rugians, Heruls, Longobards aso...
Franks were a mix of many germanic older tribes, some could be from Scandia as well.
Without testing a clear vikings, you cannot say, who is who.

[Dick]

What if continental Germans were from Scandinavia?
We have many such examples, like Rugians, Heruls, Longobards aso...
Franks were a mix of many germanic older tribes, some could be from Scandia as well.
Without testing a clear vikings, you cannot say, who is who.

Of course the Vikings weren't uniform. There's haplogroup Q on Orkney, faerose islands for example that belong to Scandinavian branch of Q. The only plausible reasoning was that it was brought by them to the islands.

[Rethel]

Of course the Vikings weren't uniform. There's haplogroup Q on Orkney, faerose islands for example that belong to Scandinavian branch of Q. The only plausible reasoning was that it was brought by them to the islands.

Yes, but I meant I1 in the context of Normandy.
If some tribes who participated in Frankness, were
from Scandia, then a scandinavian subclade in the
Normandy doesnt have to point on the Vikings at all.

[jingorex]

I love you.

Love you too bro.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohzdNG06IS5wNyJFu/giphy.gif

[Grace O'Malley]

Love you too bro.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohzdNG06IS5wNyJFu/giphy.gif

Everyone loves Dick. :)

[Dick]

Everyone loves Dick. :)

Not unless you're a straight male, I hope.

[Grace O'Malley]

Not unless you're a straight male, I hope.

Don't you mean unless you're a straight male? :confused:

[Dick]

Don't you mean unless you're a straight male? :confused:

Shut up and kiss me. I'm 80.6% Irish on a mixed mode population sharing puntdnal oracle.