What is the negroid admixture in North African groups?

[TheForeigner]

What is the negroid admixture in North African groups? I mean not just national groups, but also individual tribes like the Kabyles or Rifians.

[randomguy1235]

Mostly ancient East African, some minor, more recent West African. Ranges from 16-25% SSA on average, but some more isolated pops. can have ~10%

[Sockorer]

200% nigga

[TheForeigner]

What about tribes like Riff Chaoui and Kabyles. They tend to often look like Europeans and generally look fully Caucasoid. How much SSA do they have? There are also many Arab speakers who look European or fully Caucasoid. There are the descendants of the Moriscos and other Spanish and Portuguese Muslims living there.

[Joso]

would like to know too

[Smeagol]

It's hard to say because they mostly test visibly admixed groups like Mozabites.

[sailormoon]

A 2017 study showed that North African samples had a total of 17 haplogroups (H1, H14, H1v, HV0, J2, K1a, L2, L3, M1, R0, T1, T2, U3, U5b, U6a, V, W1). Out of these mtDNA haplogroups, L2 and L3 are considerd to be sub-Saharan African. The frequency of L3b reaches 100% in Western Sahara, while the frequencies of L2 range from 8.3% in Algeria to 50% in Libya. On average, 19% of the North African individuals belong to sub-Saharan African lineages.

https://www.tandfonline.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/tandf/journals/content/iahb20/2018/iahb20.v045.i01/03014460.2017.1413133/20180211/images/medium/iahb_a_1413133_f0001_c.jpg



Figure 1. Haplogroup distribution in each North African region. (A) Colour panel of the haplogroups represented in (B) and the haplogroups of the 26 North African sequences. Relative frequencies are shown in parentheses. (B) Map of North African haplogroup frequencies in each country from the literature (Cherni et al., 2005 Cherni L, Loueslati BY, Pereira L, Ennafaa H, Amorim A, El Gaaied ABA. 2005. Female gene pools of berber and Arab neighboring communities in central Tunisia: microstructure of mtDNA variation in North Africa. Hum Biol 77:61–70.

To further describe the North African mtDNA lineages found in our analysis, haplogroups were classified in three general categories according to their geographical origin, as suggested by Coudray et al. (2009): Eurasian (H, HV, R0, J, T, U and W), south-Saharan (L0, L1, L2 and L3) and North African lineages (U6 and M1). The results show that 73% of the samples carry Eurasian haplogroups, 19% of the individuals belong to south-Saharan lineages, and 8% of mitochondrial haplogroups have an autochthonous North African lineage (Table 1).

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03014460.2017.1413133

[Token]

~15%.

[Blondie]

Very much:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/African-admixture.gif

Moroccans:

https://c8.alamy.com/compde/atdj56/marokkaner-marokkanischen-kinder-jungen-und-madchen-studenten-schuler-augenkontakt-vorderansicht-marrakesch-marokko-nordafrika-afrika-atdj56.jpg

Berber guy:

https://dvqlxo2m2q99q.cloudfront.net/000_clients/657152/file/657152ftt0og3C.jpg

Algerians:

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/algeria-ugly.png

[Kriptc06]

You want to know the tribes they have ssa from? part of their ssa dna isnt that recent, and can be from the surrounding groups, and/or east africans. It would be very hard to say the individual tribes.

[Joso]

~15%.

He was reffering to people, i think, like is it East African? West African, etc

[Lucas]

Who knows if Ibero-Maurasian ancestry isn't by modern autosomal tests classified as Negroid, when in fact it was something different, also phenotypically. Of course Maghrebians have SSA slave influences also.

[Lucas]

Also I can add that even if in Low K calcs Maghrebians have about 25% SSA it isn't visible so much in their average physical appearance. On the contrary some of them exhibit visible pseudo-Mongoloid look (some threads were about it, just search) which for me is Ibero-Maurasian ancestry.

[JQP4545]

I don't think North African groups have admixture from sub-Saharan Africa other than what they received during the Arab slave trade. Iberomaurusians and the neolithic IAM from Morocco were native to North African and were distinct from both sub-Saharan Africans and Caucasians. On PCA analysis they are shifted towards ethnic groups from the Horn of Africa such as Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians. I think that whatever similarity they share with sub-Saharan Africans comes from their migration out of sub-Saharan Africa rather than mixing.

[StonyArabia]

It's hard to say because they mostly test visibly admixed groups like Mozabites.

Mozabites are not that mixed. Mozabite look Saharids mostly. However a lot of North Africans also have significant recent European admixture especially in northern parts, many Tunisians have Italian, Iberian ancestry

[Smeagol]

Mozabites are not that mixed. Mozabite look Saharids mostly. However a lot of North Africans also have significant recent European admixture especially in northern parts, many Tunisians have Italian, Iberian ancestry

Many Mozabites look mixed with black. Pure Berbers are Caucasoids although they don't look like Europeans.

[Leto]

Many Mozabites look mixed with black. Pure Berbers are Caucasoids although they don't look like Europeans.
Pure by looks? Genetically none of them is over 85% (West) Eurasian. I bet even Zinedine Zidane is at least 15% SSA.

[Smeagol]

Pure by looks? Genetically none of them is over 85% (West) Eurasian. I bet even Zinedine Zidane is at least 15% SSA.

I agree with LukaszM that the tests are likely misreading Ibero-Maurasian ancestry as SSA.

[Leto]

I agree with LukaszM that the tests are likely misreading Ibero-Maurasian ancestry as SSA.
What race were they? When did they exist to begin with?

[Smeagol]

What race were they? When did they exist to begin with?


The Iberomaurusian seems to have appeared around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), somewhere between c. 25,000 and 22,500 cal BP. It would have lasted until the early Holocene c. 11,000 cal BP.[1]

Don't know exactly what race they were but they appear to have been distinct from SSA.

[FilhoV]

Originally they were Ibero-Mauresian and probaly looked similar to types like this Andalusian who is fully Caucasoid imo

https://i.imgur.com/igFxdvd.jpg

[Leto]

Originally they were Ibero-Mauresian and probaly looked similar to types like this Andalusian who is fully Caucasoid imo

He looks quite swarthy to me.

[Lucas]

He looks quite swarthy to me.

Come on, pure Berbers (I'm not even talking about blonde ones, which is another mystery) don't look like Quadroons. And according to K13 they supposed to be.
Always I considered very odd those 1/4 or even more SSA among them. I remember post about light-mixed Riffian or Kabyle with shitload of SSA in calculators.

[Leto]

Come on, pure Berbers (I'm not even talking about blonde ones, which is another mysery) don't look like Quadroons. And according to K13 they supposed to be.
Always I considered very odd those 1/4 or even more SSA among them.
All I can say is that the vast majority of North Africans don't look white at all. For example Moroccans rarely pass as native in Spain. I assume in Italy they don't either.

[Token]

Originally they were Ibero-Mauresian and probaly looked similar to types like this Andalusian who is fully Caucasoid imo
Iberomaurusians looked nothing like any modern-day population and certainly not like this Spanish man. They had extremely broad faces and protruding zygomatic bones, extremely wide jaws and everted gonial angles. Considering that Iberomaurusian branched off before the differentiation of the Eurasian genepool (that is, pre out of Africa bottleneck), they most likely had negroid-level dark skin.

[Lucas]

Iberomaurusians looked nothing like any modern-day population and certainly not like this Spanish man. They had extremely broad faces and protruding zygomatic bones, extremely wide jaws and everted gonial angles. Considering that Iberomaurusian branched off before the differentiation of the Eurasian genepool (that is, pre out of Africa bottleneck), they most likely had negroid-level dark skin.

What about him. He is native from Egypt.
He has protruding zygomata (wider than head) and gonions, slanted Mongoloid-like eyes, and negroid-like mouth but hair are straight. For me he is living aproximation to I-M standard, but of course diluted. If not what race he is?
https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/typologia/michalski/bq30.jpg

[Token]

What about him. He is native from Egypt.
He had protruding zygomata and gonions, slanted eyes, and negroid-like mouth but hair are straight. For me he is living aproximation to I-M standard, but of course diluted.
https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/typologia/michalski/bq30.jpg

Yeah, this one looks much closer. Though Iberomaurusian had even more protruded gonions, almost parallel to the mental protuberance, and the chin of this man retreats too much while Iberomaurusian had a strongly orthognathic profile, with the chin perfectly aligned to the supraorbital ridge.

[Ryuk]

They had extremely broad faces and protruding zygomatic bones, extremely wide jaws and everted gonial angles.

Like aboriginal australian?


Considering that Iberomaurusian branched off before the differentiation of the Eurasian genepool

Recent genetic studies show that iberomauracians are not an isolated community and have ties to Levant.What's more, their Y-DNA is E,you know E originate from eurasia.
https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/pleistocene-north-african-genomes-link-near-eastern-and-sub-saharan-african-human-populations/

From eurogenes:

1] distance%=25.4991 / distance=0.254991

Iberomaurusian

Natufian 55.85
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP 21.5
Ethiopia_4500BP 21
Tianyuan 1.65
ElMiron 0
GoyetQ116-1 0
Levant_N 0
Malawi_Hora_Holocene 0
South_Africa_2000BP 0
Ust_Ishim 0
Vestonice16 0
WHG 0

...

[1] distance%=24.6253 / distance=0.246253

Iberomaurusian

Natufian 65.45
Dinka 22.9
Yoruba 9.45
Tianyuan 2.2
ElMiron 0
Ethiopia_4500BP 0
GoyetQ116-1 0
Levant_N 0
Malawi_Hora_Holocene 0
South_Africa_2000BP 0
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP 0
Ust_Ishim 0
Vestonice16 0
WHG 0

[Lucas]

Yeah, this one looks much closer. Though Iberomaurusian had even more protruded gonions, almost parallel to the mental protuberance, and the chin of this man retreats too much while Iberomaurusian had a strongly orthognathic profile, with the chin perfectly aligned to the supraorbital ridge.

Consider thousands years of mixing. No one find pure IM person now.

[Token]

Like aboriginal australian?



Recent genetic studies show that iberomauracians are not an isolated community and have ties to Levant.What's more, their Y-DNA is E,you know E originate from eurasia.
https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/pleistocene-north-african-genomes-link-near-eastern-and-sub-saharan-african-human-populations/

From eurogenes:

1] distance%=25.4991 / distance=0.254991

Iberomaurusian

Natufian 55.85
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP 21.5
Ethiopia_4500BP 21
Tianyuan 1.65
ElMiron 0
GoyetQ116-1 0
Levant_N 0
Malawi_Hora_Holocene 0
South_Africa_2000BP 0
Ust_Ishim 0
Vestonice16 0
WHG 0

...

[1] distance%=24.6253 / distance=0.246253

Iberomaurusian

Natufian 65.45
Dinka 22.9
Yoruba 9.45
Tianyuan 2.2
ElMiron 0
Ethiopia_4500BP 0
GoyetQ116-1 0
Levant_N 0
Malawi_Hora_Holocene 0
South_Africa_2000BP 0
Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP 0
Ust_Ishim 0
Vestonice16 0
WHG 0
That was before the new Taforalt paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/09/20/423079
The extremely bad fits are enough to deduce that something was very wrong with these models, this new paper clears it up.

[Lucas]

Yeah, this one looks much closer. Though Iberomaurusian had even more protruded gonions, almost parallel to the mental protuberance, and the chin of this man retreats too much while Iberomaurusian had a strongly orthognathic profile, with the chin perfectly aligned to the supraorbital ridge.

BTW his indices [from: Strouhal E., Reisenauer R.; A Contribution to the Anthropology of the Recent Egyptian Population [w:] Anthropologie (Brno) t. 1, z. 3, 1963, s. 3-33]

CI: 67.5 (extremaly dolichocephalic, head lenght -203 mm, head breadth - 137 mm); facial index: 80.3 (wide); nasal index: 79.2 (medium-wide, close to wide);

[Joso]

That was before the new Taforalt paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/09/20/423079
The extremely bad fits are enough to deduce that something was very wrong with these models, this new paper clears it up.

So which negroid influence North Africans have? East African?

[Token]

BTW his indices [from: Strouhal E., Reisenauer R.; A Contribution to the Anthropology of the Recent Egyptian Population [w:] Anthropologie (Brno) t. 1, z. 3, 1963, s. 3-33]

CI: 67.5 (extreamly longheaded, head lenght -203 mm, head breadth - 137 mm); facial index: 80.3 (wide); nasal index: 79.2 (medium-wide, close to wide);

As far as i know, lower CI than any European skull sampled so far, maybe Negroid influence?

[Lucas]

BTW his indices [from: Strouhal E., Reisenauer R.; A Contribution to the Anthropology of the Recent Egyptian Population [w:] Anthropologie (Brno) t. 1, z. 3, 1963, s. 3-33]

CI: 67.5 (extremaly dolichocephalic, head lenght -203 mm, head breadth - 137 mm); facial index: 80.3 (wide); nasal index: 79.2 (medium-wide, close to wide);

Even SSA rarely had such index. Maybe Bushmen.
What about known indices of IberoMaurasians?

[Token]

So which negroid influence North Africans have? East African?

Maybe some Iberomaurusian is being confused for SSA. Most of it entered via West African slave trade anyway.

[Token]

Even SSA rarely had such index. Maybe Bushmen.
What about known indices of IberoMaurasians?

75. Low cephalic index, but not that low.

[FilhoV]

A C.I of 67 must look like an alien

[FilhoV]

Tunisian C.I. of 75

https://i.imgur.com/KMlLSc5.png

[Joso]

Tunisian C.I. of 75

https://i.imgur.com/KMlLSc5.png

Martian

[DarknessWin]

Very much:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/African-admixture.gif

Moroccans:

https://c8.alamy.com/compde/atdj56/marokkaner-marokkanischen-kinder-jungen-und-madchen-studenten-schuler-augenkontakt-vorderansicht-marrakesch-marokko-nordafrika-afrika-atdj56.jpg

Berber guy:

https://dvqlxo2m2q99q.cloudfront.net/000_clients/657152/file/657152ftt0og3C.jpg

Algerians:

http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/algeria-ugly.png


Skin color have nothing to do with Negroid dna ,
also haplogroups is only 0.00000001% of DNA and a man
with E haplo is not nigger.
For example Nigerians are R1b haplo but they have nigger dna.
Pakistanis are R1a haplo but have not European dna

So skin color and haplo mean nothing at all.
Only DNA can show the mix


Here is a map of Negroid mix in Europe and North Africa.
They have not much Negroids because they are more Caucasoids than Negros.
Their higher mix is around 25%

https://i.imgur.com/ZXmY2is.png

[StonyArabia]

Many Mozabites look mixed with black. Pure Berbers are Caucasoids although they don't look like Europeans.

The majority of Mozabite just look like darker Caucasoids. The Touregs are Berber/African mixes. Mozabite just have ancient SSA admix, and their used a proxy because they are more isolated Berber group, and they have no European influence, as most northern Berber and Arabized Berbers often have significant European admixture, Tunisians for example have a lot of Italian and Iberian ancestry, well many Berbers in the coast score European admix in general. Tunisians are the whitest North Africans because they have the most European influence.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nCrBLoUqI4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iBmwPzIf7Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcDowkLuXkQ

They look similar to Libyans they are "Saharids"

[Leto]

Tunisians are the whitest North Africans because they have the most European influence.

I posted Tunisian 23andme results some days ago, no one seems to have found it interesting though (as with most of my threads)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?268080-Tunisian-23andme-Results



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nmlak2cISw&t=105s

Western Asian & North African 87.5%
- North African & Arabian (Tunisia) 80.8%
- Western Asian 4.4%
- Broadly Western Asian & North African 2.3%

European 9.6%
- Italian (Italy) 4.7%
- Balkan 1.0%
- Broadly Southern European 3.8%
- Broadly European 0.2%

Sub-Saharan African 1.7%
- Sudanese 0.8%
- Broadly Northern East African 0.8%

East Asian & Native American 0.1%
- Broadly East Asian & Native American 0.1%

Unassigned 1.1%