Minoans were North (West) European?

[Norse]

Why hasn't this been discussed?

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/images_hires/w926/ncomms2871-f2.jpg


The greatest percentage of shared Minoan haplotypes was observed with European populations, particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe (26.98% and 29.28%, respectively) (Figs 2, 3, 4; Supplementary Table S7). Notably, in Fig. 4, a gradient can be observed, with the lowest affinity for Minoans found with Northern African populations and the percentage of haplotype sharing increasing as we move through the Middle East, Caucasus and the Mediterranean islands, southern Europe and mainland Europe (Fig. 4a). Of notice also is the high percentage of haplotype sharing with Bronze Age (Fig. 4c) and Neolithic (Fig. 4d) European populations.

[Styrian Mujo]

Brace yourself for the incoming greek butthurtness:cool: You don't need genetic science to know that ancient Greece was not a product of the same race that inhabits the southern Balkans.

[Sakis]

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/images_hires/m685/ncomms2871-f6.jpg

"the Minoans are extremely close to the modern Lassithi population, the populations from the islands of Chios and Euboea, as well as the populations of Argolis and Lakonia"

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

[Sakis]

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/images_hires/w926/ncomms2871-f4.jpg

"The y axis represents per cent sharing. Notice, in (a) the low frequency of sharing with the North African population (9%) and in (b) the gradual increase of sharing from the Middle East to Southern and Western Europe. c shows sharing with Iron Age and Bronze Age European populations and d shows sharing with Neolithic European populations. Notice that the highest frequency of sharing (33%) is with the Neolithic populations of Southern Europe."

[Norse]

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/images_hires/m685/ncomms2871-f6.jpg

"the Minoans are extremely close to the modern Lassithi population, the populations from the islands of Chios and Euboea, as well as the populations of Argolis and Lakonia"

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

This seems to be a question of understanding the difference between PCA analysis and shared similarity.

[Sakis]

This seems to be a question of understanding the difference between PCA analysis and shared similarity.

It makes perfect sense for the Minoans to be the closest to modern Greeks.

[Danaan]

@Norse
I know that you are a troll (I've been told you are an Indian).

The neolithic inhabitants of the island could have been, for example, Sardinian-like.
In general, if we follow mainstream scholars, it is normal to assume that there may have been differences between pre-palatial Crete (~3650-1900 BC), palatial Crete ('Minoan' proper, 1900BC-1425BC), and post-palatial. The palatial civilization is though to have been non-Greek. And apart from that, since the samples of this study are dated 3,700 to 4,400 years ago, it's not even sure if they were 'Minoans' proper (if those samples are from people who were part of the palatial civilization or pre-palatial farmers)


For me any Y-DNA is possible, since we aren't even sure if their languages were IE or not.

[Norse]

I'm going to wait until someone who understand genetics is here. The study clearly says Northern European share the most DNA with Minoans.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I'm going to wait until someone who understand genetics is here. The study clearly says Northern European share the most DNA with Minoans.

less than 30% so what are ye talking about

[Sakis]

I'm going to wait until someone who understand genetics is here. The study clearly says Northern European share the most DNA with Minoans.

But they are genetically the closest to modern Greeks,very far from northern Europeans.

[Norse]

But they are genetically the closest to modern Greeks,very far from northern Europeans.

How are they far from Northern Europeans when they share the most DNA, lol.

[Sakis]

How are they far from Northern Europeans when they share the most DNA, lol.

They plot very far from northern Europeans,deal with it.

[Peterski]

Norse, you quoted this:


(...) The greatest percentage of shared Minoan haplotypes was observed with European populations, particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe (...)

But this fragment is about mtDNA lineages, not about autosomal DNA or Y-DNA. And it seems to be a low resolution analysis - they talk about "major" mtDNA haplogroups H, T, K, I - not about subclades.

This approach is way too general, even for an analysis of mtDNA haplogroups.

And you should look at autosomal DNA if your goal is to check "racial" affinities.

I can't find anything about autosomal DNA there. Also Y-DNA would be more useful than mtDNA.

=========================

We should wait until some study with Minoan autosomal DNA and Y-DNA is published.

[Peterski]

Most of studies which have only mtDNA (and no Y-DNA, and no autosomal DNA) are almost useless. But sequencing autosomal DNA and Y-DNA requires much more time and effort, and costs more money, so some scientists focus just on mtDNA. They should re-publish it with full genome sequences.

[RN97]

Litvin mentioned it, but it would be like saying that Romanians share more Paternal Y-DNA with Brits and much less so with Greeks when it's clear that Romanians are much more closer to Brits, but since Romanians have a lot of R Y-DNA and Brits also do, they are genetically more close to Brits?
Nope....
Hitler was E1, according to your theory he was basically Albanian. Maternal and paternal haplogroups indicate something, but autosomal is what's most important, in that article you can see that on a PCA plot, minioans are furtherst from n. Europeans and closest to s. Europeans.
http://i.imgur.com/GTuuUGE.jpg

Projection on top two principal components of 71 extant population groups in comparison to the Minoans. The top 15 nearest neighbours to the Minoans are shown in the figure and legend with individual symbols. The remaining populations are marked using broad geographic labels; for example, all North African populations are marked with the same red square symbol. Notice the genetic distance between the Minoans and the North African populations and the similarity between the Minoans and the population of Lassithi plateau.

[Norse]

Explain more detail Litvin, mtDNA is carried by women. If mtDNA is North Western but they plot closer to Greece, doesn't that suggest "contamination" of a later Balkan conquest.

You can't just ignore mtDNA from Northern Europe, that is simply being deliberately obtuse at best. That mtDNA got there somehow.

[Norse]

Litvin mentioned it, but it would be like saying that Romanians share more Paternal Y-DNA with Brits and much less so with Greeks when it's clear that Romanians are much more closer to Brits, but since Romanians have a lot of R Y-DNA and Brits also do, they are genetically more close to Brits?
Nope....
Hitler was E1, according to your theory he was basically Albanian. Maternal and paternal haplogroups indicate something, but autosomal is what's most important, in that article you can see that on a PCA plot, minioans are furtherst from n. Europeans and closest to s. Europeans.
http://i.imgur.com/GTuuUGE.jpg

Look straigh to the left, the purple diamond, that is Neolithic Scandinavian.

[RN97]

Explain more detail Litvin, mtDNA is carried by women. If mtDNA is North Western but they plot closer to Greece, doesn't that suggest "contamination" of a later Balkan conquest.

You can't just ignore mtDNA from Northern Europe, that is simply being deliberately obtuse at best. That mtDNA got there somehow.

The reason it's faulty, is because they didn't examine sub-clades. They just grouped all H-MtDNA clades together from what I gathered.
Look at these maps of haplogroup H, and look how different sub-clades determine how different the spread is.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

[Norse]

The reason it's faulty, is because they didn't examine sub-clades. They just grouped all H-MtDNA clades together from what I gathered.
Look at these maps of haplogroup H, and look how different sub-clades determine how different the spread is.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_H_mtDNA.shtml

I doubt it is "faulty" when it is peer reviewed in Nature, if you make that claim show me someone refuting it in a scientific paper.

[RN97]

Look straigh to the left, the purple diamond, that is Neolithic Scandinavian.

Neolithic Scandinavians were southern Europeans, or s. Euro like I think. Nordics came from the steppes and central Europe, but I guess talk to someone who knows their shit, I'm not a big expert.

[brennus dux gallorum]

some people can't understand that all Y-DNA shows is a veeeeeery deep paternal ancestry, and so does mtDNA about maternal.

for example,the highest frequency of R1b in the world is in Cameroon, 99,5%, and the people there are still almost pure black by autosomal DNA

[RN97]

I doubt it is "faulty" when it is peer reviewed in Nature, if you make that claim show me someone refuting it in a scientific paper.

You misunderstood, it is a true statement that gives you nothing. Look at the spread of Y-DNA haplogroup I. It is most popular in the balkans and Scandinavia. Does that make them related? Well, in a way yes, but I'm sure you'd understand how Norwegians are closer to Brits who are more R, than Serbs who are more I.
The reason being is sub-clades. Balkans are mostly 12, while scandos are mostly I1. Get it now? That study doesn't separate sub-clades.

[Norse]

You misunderstood, it is a true statement that gives you nothing. Look at the spread of Y-DNA haplogroup I. It is most popular in the balkans and Scandinavia. Does that make them related? Well, in a way yes, but I'm sure you'd understand how Norwegians are closer to Brits who are more R, than Serbs who are more I.
The reason being is sub-clades. Balkans are mostly 12, while scandos are mostly I1. Get it now? That study doesn't separate sub-clades.

Neolithic Scandinavians were not Southerners that's absurd, the neolithic migration didn't replace scandos more than a fraction which can be clearly seen in how much WHG is still there,.

[RN97]

Neolithic Scandinavians were not Southerners that's absurd, the neolithic migration didn't replace scandos more than a fraction which can be clearly seen in how much WHG is still there,.

Dude, they cluster closest to adyghe people, they look like this:
http://i.imgur.com/MhMKps4.jpg
They're not nordic, and probably not s. Euro either.... Neolithic Scandos aren't like the scandos of today. I don't even think they were indo-European, just like Minoans may not have been.

[Jackson]

Look straigh to the left, the purple diamond, that is Neolithic Scandinavian.

Who were genetically like modern southern Europeans (or rather the other way around) and particularly Sardinians, until the very latest part of the Neolithic and later. It's only from after that period that Scandinavians begin to look genetically like modern Scandinavians, apparently due to genetic input from the western Eurasian steppe.

[Norse]

Who were genetically like modern southern Europeans (or rather the other way around) and particularly Sardinians, until the very latest part of the Neolithic and later. It's only from after that period that Scandinavians begin to look genetically like modern Scandinavians, apparently due to genetic input from the western Eurasian steppe.

Prove it.

Quite the contrary Scandis are high in WHG. Diffusion to Scandi happened by culture not by replacement.

[Jackson]

Prove it.

Quite the contrary Scandis are high in WHG. Diffusion to Scandi happened by culture not by replacement.

Well lets look at this PCA for starters, it includes modern (grey) individuals and ancients, i've marked out roughly where modern Scandinavians are on there, and the rest is quite self explanatory.
http://i.imgur.com/V88VP2R.png
Sure, they are high in WHG but mostly not local SHG. And they have no or almost no ANE which makes them unlike pretty much all modern Europeans, particularly Scandinavians. The source of ANE in Europe also appears to be from groups that have both ANE and 'WHG/Villabruna related ancestry' in large amounts. In addition even Neolithic near eastern farmers had a good chunk of this component. So it follows that the WHG in modern Scandinavians has clearly not all been in that location since the Mesolithic, same applies to pretty much all Europeans. By the time you start to get people that look genetically like modern Europeans, the mtDNA profile is different from these Minoans (and the autosomal profile much more so).

[catgeorge]

Why hasn't this been discussed?

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/journal/v4/n5/images_hires/w926/ncomms2871-f2.jpg

:rotfl:

[Norse]

bump

[Faklon]

1.mtdna doesn't vary much in European populations

2.Their absolute closest match is the one of the Lasithi plateau

3.We have neolithic genomes from Greek Macedonia, what makes you think that the Minoans will be any different if we diminish relative proximity to Near-East?

4.Why do the same things have to be repeated like 10 times to the same 10 retards, retards?

[Ylla]

particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe

these researchers know exactly what they're doing. they love to stir shit up.

[Faklon]

these researchers know exactly what they're doing. they love to stir shit up.

WHEN DID YOU BECAME A CANADIAN FEMME SHQIPTAR?

[Ylla]

WHEN DID YOU BECAME A CANADIAN FEMME SHQIPTAR?

IM FEELING WESTERN;)

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I didn't know that Minions were North West European, glad to know.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ee/fd/4d/eefd4d45c0cd9dd7f3d86b4b49e7fc72.png

[Myanthropologies]

Why does this stuff even matter to people? Use the genetics to find patterns of human migration, where certain aspects of humanity may have came from, etc. Don't use it to be a snob and be like "im the closest living thing to minoans." Like congrats, do you want a cookie? I lol when people obsess over dead civilizations and people.

Anyways, as Sakis showed, they were closest to modern south euros.

[Myanthropologies]

these researchers know exactly what they're doing. they love to stir shit up.

Yep. This is another one of those "king tut shares the same DNA as western european men" when in reality, I think all it was was that he had r1b. If you were a noble person, people will magnify anything you had to do with NW Europeans.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

these researchers know exactly what they're doing. they love to stir shit up.

I don't know. I think it's that they're unaware how some people will pluck bits of information out of context. I looked through the article and in context it's not what Norse thinks. Researchers have no control over how well versed others are in their field.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

The PCA analysis also highlights the high affinity of the Minoans to the current inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau as well as Greece. Among the top 10 nearest neighbours to our Minoan population sample, four are Greek populations and two of these from Lassithi prefecture (Fig. 5).

How does someone miss something like this?

[MINARDOWICZ]

How are they far from Northern Europeans when they share the most DNA, lol.

They are talking about MtDNA. Meaning, the female line was N European-like. Isn't too weird sounding to me.
My MtDNA is CEU but I am genetically southwest of that... See?

[RN97]

They are talking about MtDNA. Meaning, the female line was N European-like. Isn't too weird sounding to me.
My MtDNA is CEU but I am genetically southwest of that... See?

Do you think he read that? :P
He read the closest to northwestern Euros and was like... Sheeeeeeeiiiit, so u iz sayin' we wuz minoans n' sheeeit, Olav????

[MINARDOWICZ]

Do you think he read that? :P
He read the closest to northwestern Euros and was like... Sheeeeeeeiiiit, so u iz sayin' we wuz minoans n' sheeeit, Olav????

:picard2: I just died.

[Sikeliot]

Minoans should have been related to the pre-Indo European people in Sicily like Sicanians.