Origin of Berbers

[Axios]

So, Berbers, this word is a classic in this forum.
As you already know there are different etnias in this group, some of them related to subsaharian populations (Tuaregs), others like Kabylians are related to european admixture.

My question is, what you seriously think about the origin of north Berbers (Kabylians, Riffians...) and south Berbers (Tuaregs...)?
i don't accept troll opinions like the ones from Cristiano Viejo (of course), Hassad which is now banned, Empecinado who has not solid arguments and generalizes all Berber populations as if they were 1.

I honestly think the north populations have some european admixture but mainly i think some north berber populations are the native "white" (non-euro) race of Africa. Of course if you visit Morocco today you only see dark skined people and mixed people that's because Berber populations are marginalized by the stupid government and his stupid king, and almost no tourists visit berber areas, i'm not saying that berbers aren't mixed, they are.



So, another Berber thread in TA means salty comments :cool:

[Axios]

Being Berber do you have to ask your own origins? :lol: hilarious.

i'm asking opinions, dumbass.

[Bell Beaker]

Berbers are Indo-Europeans in Africa.

Nazi racialist theorists have considered them "Honorary Aryans". Some light Berberids show afilliation with the Faelid type.

[Axios]

:lol: Really?:

Mas retrasado y no naces.
¿Que pensáis sobre el origen de los bereberes? no hace falta que añada opinion, pero parece que para tu cutre mente si.

[Axios]

Not my fault that nor even you know your origins. You need to come to Apricity to ask us :icon_lol:

u are a sad motherfucker man. You really need a woman in your life.

[Kriptc06]

Berbers are Indo-Europeans in Africa.

Nazi racialist theorists have considered them "Honorary Aryans". Some light Berberids show afilliation with the Faelid type.

do you think the vandals did any impact to the population of north africa? genticaly speaking.

[Bell Beaker]

As armenians

Armenians are Caucasoid but yes they are proto-indo europeans.

[Bell Beaker]

do you think the vandals did any impact to the population of north africa? genticaly speaking.

The French born Algerian member MsSPF has MtDna haplogroup that is more common in Scandinavia..... Food for your thought.

[Egyptian]

Berbers are waaaaay mixed.. i think berbers of Siwa in Egypt are the most pure.

[Axios]

Your lack of arguments gives me the reason.

Arguments for what? i can't ask anything? shut your mouth and get the fuck out of here if you will just troll.

[Axios]

Berbers are waaaaay mixed.. i think berbers of Siwa in Egypt are the most pure.

But explain more, not all berbers are identical, there are groups.

[TheForeigner]

What level of negroid admixture do the northern Berbers like Kabyles and Rif have?

[gold_fenix]

It is has said that Riffian and kabylian are the most pure berbers...
In the case of Kabylya it is a zone who had strong european influences and not only south european

[Axios]

What level of negroid admixture do the northern Berbers like Kabyles and Rif have?

depends on the person, usually 3 to 8% in some cases way more if they look dark skined. There are some cases which have 2% or less.

[TheForeigner]

depends on the person, usually 3 to 8% in some cases way more if they look dark skined. There are some cases which have 2% or less.

That is a wide difference in the same groups. Only some would qualify as white.

[Axios]

That is a wide difference in the same groups.

that's why i hate people who generalizes all of us

[TheForeigner]

Zidane and Benzema look like white guys to me. Most Maghrebis are mixed and brown though. And the admixture mentioned for Kabyles and Rif is not entirely insignificant either.

[Axios]

Zidane and Benzema look like white guys to me. Most Maghrebis are mixed and brown though. And the admixture mentioned for Kabyles and RIff is not entirely insignificant either.

i know, there are celebrities who look white, and that's also for some population.
Yes they are mixed as fuck in southern morocco, no it's not insignificant. But again i'm asking opinions about the origins.

[TheForeigner]

i know, there are celebrities who look white, and that's also for some population.
Yes they are mixed as fuck in southern morocco, no it's not insignificant. But again i'm asking opinions about the origins.

The main ancestry is from Cro Magnons and Neolithic Levantines, right? Like Europeans. Maybe some Neanderthal, like Euros again.

[Axios]

The main ancestry is from Cro Magnons and Neolithic Levantines, right? Like Europeans. Maybe some Neanderthal, like Euros again.

i don't know honestly.
i asked to all riffians and berbers and they couldn't tell me where our origins are from, some of them told me something about romans, but that's all.

[TheForeigner]

i don't know honestly.
i asked to all riffians and berbers and they couldn't tell me where our origins are from, some of them told me something about romans, but that's all.

No definitely not Romans. Berbers have been indigenous to North Africa for many thousands of years and yes you were also conquered by Romans.

[gold_fenix]

When the caucasoid and Mongoloid separated in two races, the caucasoid extended to Caucasus , that point some caucasoid had the European way and other the North African way, time after some european migrated to North Africa due to cold conditions

I don't remember the first inhabitants of North Africa which descend berbers , but berbers are very old in North Africa altought totally adapted, it is often in berbers problems of skin and eyes

[Axios]

No definetly not Romans. Berbers have been indigenous to North Africa for many thousands of years and yes you were also conquered by Romans.

Yeah, i think they say that because lots of empires conquered north africa, Romans, Carthaginians, Vandals.
Actually now i remember my uncle said that Carthaginians were mostly berbers, but that's bullshit.

[TheForeigner]

In ancient times you were known as Lybians.

[TheForeigner]

Yeah, i think they say that because lots of empires conquered north africa, Romans, Carthaginians, Vandals.
Actually now i remember my uncle said that Carthaginians were mostly berbers, but that's bullshit.

Don't know enough of Carthaginians, but they came from Phoenicia and conquered land in Southern Europe and North Africa, so maybe they recruted a lot of Berbers as soldiers and for other occupations too.63340

[gold_fenix]

you should search about ancient typografy found in the Sahara and other sites

[Axios]

Check Masinisa https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masinisa the first king of Numidia, he was berber.
Or Septimio Severo, a Roman emperor, also berber: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimio_Severo

[Ibericus]

Genetic results of an Kabyle :

Population Percent

East_Med 30.49
West_Med 21.37
Atlantic 14.59
Red_Sea 13.32
Northeast_African 9.71
Sub-Saharan 9.05
Southeast_Asian 1.47

Single Population Sharing


1 Tunisian 5.3
2 Algerian 8.5
3 Mozabite_Berber 8.79
4 Moroccan 10.56
5 Algerian_Jewish 17.16
6 Egyptian 18.28
7 Tunisian_Jewish 18.52
8 Libyan_Jewish 19.07
9 Sephardic_Jewish 19.67
10 Italian_Jewish 19.7
11 West_Sicilian 21.14
12 East_Sicilian 22.46
13 Ashkenazi 22.72
14 South_Italian 22.8
15 Bedouin 23.38
16 Jordanian 24.31
17 Central_Greek 24.75
18 Italian_Abruzzo 25.05
19 Palestinian 25.22
20 Tuscan 25.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 88.6% Tunisian + 11.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.85
2 94% Tunisian + 6% Sardinian @ 4.87
3 90.6% Tunisian + 9.4% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.96
4 91.5% Tunisian + 8.5% Italian_Jewish @ 4.99
5 91.8% Tunisian + 8.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 5.02
6 93.2% Tunisian + 6.8% West_Sicilian @ 5.08
7 97% Tunisian + 3% French_Basque @ 5.13
8 93.5% Tunisian + 6.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.14
9 96.1% Tunisian + 3.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 5.15
10 95.3% Tunisian + 4.7% Cyprian @ 5.16

[Axios]

Genetic results of an Kabyle :

Population Percent

East_Med 30.49
West_Med 21.37
Atlantic 14.59
Red_Sea 13.32
Northeast_African 9.71
Sub-Saharan 9.05
Southeast_Asian 1.47

Single Population Sharing


1 Tunisian 5.3
2 Algerian 8.5
3 Mozabite_Berber 8.79
4 Moroccan 10.56
5 Algerian_Jewish 17.16
6 Egyptian 18.28
7 Tunisian_Jewish 18.52
8 Libyan_Jewish 19.07
9 Sephardic_Jewish 19.67
10 Italian_Jewish 19.7
11 West_Sicilian 21.14
12 East_Sicilian 22.46
13 Ashkenazi 22.72
14 South_Italian 22.8
15 Bedouin 23.38
16 Jordanian 24.31
17 Central_Greek 24.75
18 Italian_Abruzzo 25.05
19 Palestinian 25.22
20 Tuscan 25.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 88.6% Tunisian + 11.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.85
2 94% Tunisian + 6% Sardinian @ 4.87
3 90.6% Tunisian + 9.4% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.96
4 91.5% Tunisian + 8.5% Italian_Jewish @ 4.99
5 91.8% Tunisian + 8.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 5.02
6 93.2% Tunisian + 6.8% West_Sicilian @ 5.08
7 97% Tunisian + 3% French_Basque @ 5.13
8 93.5% Tunisian + 6.5% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.14
9 96.1% Tunisian + 3.9% Lebanese_Druze @ 5.15
10 95.3% Tunisian + 4.7% Cyprian @ 5.16

so you say a genetic test for one single person determines all the etnia?

[Myanthropologies]

you need a bad girl to blow your mind

You're underage, m8. Watch what you say over the keyboard.

[Dominicanese]

i have a number of theories of the possible origin

but the answer is right in front of our faces and very easy

The Vandals went to North Africa, Europeans went to North Africa, many Iberians that were muslim were kicked out and went to North Africa, and as well the ancient caucasian people who came from the East (either from camal herding nomads & Arab invasians)


a lot of people think that history as we know it is the way it was, remember history is written by the winner, they don't care about the real history

bro, North Africa has had many Europeans come there like today as tourist and or interest as well as to live there and im pretty sure it wasn't any different back then, only difference is that they would conquer (immigrations)

[Axios]

i have a number of theories of the possible origin

but the answer is right in front of our faces and very easy

The Vandals went to North Africa, Europeans went to North Africa, many Iberians that were muslim were kicked out and went to North Africa, and as well the ancient caucasian people who came from the East (either from camal herding nomads & Arab invasians)


a lot of people think that history as we know it is the way it was, remember history is written by the winner, they don't care about the real history

bro, North Africa has had many Europeans come there like today as tourist and or interest as well as to live there and im pretty sure it wasn't any different back then, only difference is that they would conquer (immigrations)

Some Canarians are related to Berbers.

[Numidia]

It is has said that Riffian and kabylian are the most pure berbers...
In the case of Kabylya it is a zone who had strong european influences and not only south european

Kabylian and riffians are related I know kabilians don't have european dna
maghrebians descent of iberomaurusian (indo-europeans) and capsians (afro-asiatic)
Carthaginiand were north african and like you said everybody is ignorant about north african genetic because a few tests were done while there is thousands for european
Don't pay attention to the spagniard dog he thinks spanish are german his ancestors were probably east european moor's slaves

[Bell Beaker]

Some Canarians are related to Berbers.

Gomerians (from the the island La Gomera) are basically half Guanche half Spaniard........

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8489700950_32ae274755.jpg

[Axios]

Gomerians (from the the island La Gomera) are basically half Guanche half Spaniard........

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8099/8489700950_32ae274755.jpg

i meant guanches, they claim to be from berber origin

[Dominicanese]

Some Canarians are related to Berbers.

yeah, they are

and supposely the original guaches (or aboriginal Canarians) were a Berber tribes people, but they described as being very tall and of blond or lighter hair and eyes

based on what they were described, they were pretty much Riffians

remember, it's all about geography & logic not always what the books say, just because Europeans went to The Canaries and came in contact with people they have not seen before doesn't mean that they are not part of the same group

they were for all intense purposes - Caucasian

[Bell Beaker]

i meant guanches, they claim to be from berber origin

(Pure) Guanches don't exist anymore.

[Axios]

(Pure) Guanches don't exist anymore.

i know

[Melki]

Don't forget the Guanches from the Canary Islands. Which Amazigh group are they related to ? Riffians ? Or more probably Shilha ? France hosts the most important foreign Berber community in the world, and yet, French are so ignorant ! They just call everyone "Arab"...:picard1:

[Bell Beaker]

Don't forget the Guanches from the Canary Islands. Which Amazigh group are they related to ? Riffians ? Or more probably Shilha ? France hosts the most important foreign Berber community in the world, and yet, French are so ignorant ! They just call everyone "Arab"...:picard1:

Because Berbers speak mainly Arab and not Berber languages........

[MsSPF]

maghrebians descent of iberomaurusian (indo-europeans) and capsians (afro-asiatic)


Exactly. Iberomaurusian + Capsian are ancestors of Berbers. Definitely makes sense when you see DNA results of NorthWest Africans. Regarding our minor SSA admixture, it is most likely ancient and from East Africa/Sahel region.
To summurize in a simplified way, a Berber genetically is a Southern European (Iberian) with significant/important Middle Eastern admix and minor SSA input.


Carthaginians were not North Africans though, they colonized and occupied NorthWest Africa, especially Tunisia and created an elite (probably including Berber natives as well but most of them were semites "colonialists" living in NorthWest Africa). Hannibal and Carthaginians have been defeated by Massinissa, king of Numidia, with the help of Romans.


The French born Algerian member MsSPF has MtDna haplogroup that is more common in Scandinavia..... Food for your thought.

I am not a good example though, I am a very rare case.
Vandals impact in NorthWest Africa is overestimated and exegerated, they left almost nothing culturally, historically and genetically in the region, in contrast with Romans, Carthaginians, Arabs or Ottomans etc...



Berbers are waaaaay mixed.. i think berbers of Siwa in Egypt are the most pure.

More like Moroccan Chleuh from Atlas moutains. They have been extremely isolated during a long time. Siwis are too much Egyptian shifted.

[YashiroNanakase]

iberomaurusian (indo-europeans)

:lol:

[Ibericus]

so you say a genetic test for one single person determines all the etnia?
It's not going to vary that much. Kabylia is a very small area.

[Ibericus]

Exactly. Iberomaurusian + Capsian are ancestors of Berbers. Definitely makes sense when you see DNA results of NorthWest Africans. Regarding our minor SSA admixture, it is most likely ancient and from East Africa/Sahel region.
To summurize in a simplified way, a Berber genetically is a Southern European (Iberian) with significant/important Middle Eastern admix and minor SSA input. .
Not at all, The "south-euro" side is not iberian-like but neolithic-like (similar to Sardinians).

[gold_fenix]

Exactly. Iberomaurusian + Capsian are ancestors of Berbers. Definitely makes sense when you see DNA results of NorthWest Africans. Regarding our minor SSA admixture, it is most likely ancient and from East Africa/Sahel region.
To summurize in a simplified way, a Berber genetically is a Southern European (Iberian) with significant/important Middle Eastern admix and minor SSA input.


Carthaginians were not North Africans though, they colonized and occupied NorthWest Africa, especially Tunisia and created an elite (probably including Berber natives as well but most of them were semites "colonialists" living in NorthWest Africa). Hannibal and Carthaginians have been defeated by Massinissa, king of Numidia, with the help of Romans.



I am not a good example though, I am a very rare case.
Vandals impact in NorthWest Africa is overestimated and exegerated, they left almost nothing culturally, historically and genetically in the region, in contrast with Romans, Carthaginians, Arabs or Ottomans etc...




More like Moroccan Chleuh from Atlas moutains. They have been extremely isolated during a long time. Siwis are too much Egyptian shifted.

In that case in 23andme at least i should have relative from Nort Africa and I don't have, in Europe where more relatives I have is British Isles and Spain

[StonyArabia]

Ancient Iberians, ancient Levantines, and East African. Berbers are diverse the Kabyles and Mozabites are different from one another.

[Melki]

Because Berbers speak mainly Arab and not Berber languages........

partially wrong statement. Kabyle, for example, is far from being extinct

[Numidia]

Exactly. Iberomaurusian + Capsian are ancestors of Berbers. Definitely makes sense when you see DNA results of NorthWest Africans. Regarding our minor SSA admixture, it is most likely ancient and from East Africa/Sahel region.
To summurize in a simplified way, a Berber genetically is a Southern European (Iberian) with significant/important Middle Eastern admix and minor SSA input.


Carthaginians were not North Africans though, they colonized and occupied NorthWest Africa, especially Tunisia and created an elite (probably including Berber natives as well but most of them were semites "colonialists" living in NorthWest Africa). Hannibal and Carthaginians have been defeated by Massinissa, king of Numidia, with the help of Romans.



I am not a good example though, I am a very rare case.
Vandals impact in NorthWest Africa is overestimated and exegerated, they left almost nothing culturally, historically and genetically in the region, in contrast with Romans, Carthaginians, Arabs or Ottomans etc...




More like Moroccan Chleuh from Atlas moutains. They have been extremely isolated during a long time. Siwis are too much Egyptian shifted.

The first indigenous of north africa weren't iberians. They carried r1b and f haplogroups while the majority of Maghrebians belong to eb1b1 and j1e haplogroups. The genetic reference for north african are the mozabite

[Numidia]

Don't forget the Guanches from the Canary Islands. Which Amazigh group are they related to ? Riffians ? Or more probably Shilha ? France hosts the most important foreign Berber community in the world, and yet, French are so ignorant ! They just call everyone "Arab"...:picard1:

Yes French are very ignorant :rolleyes: like many people here

[Axios]

Yes French are very ignorant :rolleyes: like many people here

Everybody is ignorant towards Berbers tbh, they can't differentiate. Not their fault actually.

[Berahthraban]

At some point there were WHG's in North Africa, right? I wonder when North Africans mixed with modern SSA. Before that, they must have been like far Southern Europeans with a Sardinian component split.

[Numidia]

At some point there were WHG's in North Africa, right? I wonder when North Africans mixed with modern SSA. Before that, they must have been like far Southern Europeans with a Sardinian component split.

Ane and whg of proto-indo european
For the sardinians component I'm not aware
The east african component is Old it became more important when subsaharian Nomads have moved to the north because of the climate it was around 2500 2000 years ago

[Fantomas]

So, Berbers, this word is a classic in this forum.
As you already know there are different etnias in this group, some of them related to subsaharian populations (Tuaregs), others like Kabylians are related to european admixture.

My question is, what you seriously think about the origin of north Berbers (Kabylians, Riffians...) and south Berbers (Tuaregs...)?


Berber origin is directly related with Ibero-Maurusian and Capsian cultures which were developed in parallel with mesolithic European cultures including Tardenoisian one which had partially African origin. Skulls from Taforalt, Afalou Bou Rhummel,Tebessa,Ain Metherchem,Redeyef, Cap Juby and Mechta El-Arbi show that anthropologically ,just like western Europeans at that time, they're represented by: massive, archaic CMs, Mechtoids (smaller, reduced CM)

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Fantomas305/II/b4_zpsmjfj5w76.jpg (http://s288.photobucket.com/user/Fantomas305/media/II/b4_zpsmjfj5w76.jpg.html)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Fantomas305/II/b3_zpsvymp9ozk.jpg (http://s288.photobucket.com/user/Fantomas305/media/II/b3_zpsvymp9ozk.jpg.html)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Fantomas305/II/b1_zpsjgjuiyz6.jpg (http://s288.photobucket.com/user/Fantomas305/media/II/b1_zpsjgjuiyz6.jpg.html)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Fantomas305/II/b2_zpse8eyrrnv.jpg (http://s288.photobucket.com/user/Fantomas305/media/II/b2_zpse8eyrrnv.jpg.html)

and proto-Mediterraneans (also divided into small and massive types), analogous to this Maltese neolithic exapmle
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Fantomas305/II/2013-05-07T220717Z_434523928_GM1E9580FMQ01_RTRMADP_3_MALTA _zpsrgl3ocou.jpg (http://s288.photobucket.com/user/Fantomas305/media/II/2013-05-07T220717Z_434523928_GM1E9580FMQ01_RTRMADP_3_MALTA _zpsrgl3ocou.jpg.html)

Contrary to popular opinion that Lybians were always close neighbors of ancient egyptians, in reality Egyptians encoiuntered them firstly only in 19th dinasty period. Lybians or Rebu headed coalition of Sea Peoples and came from west, so their homeland or maybe bases for invasions must be in western mediterranean area, coastland of Tunisia, Algeria or Morocco.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll171/Fantomas305/II/Races2_zpshmjs9jqz.jpg (http://s288.photobucket.com/user/Fantomas305/media/II/Races2_zpshmjs9jqz.jpg.html)

Seems like Mediterranean and CM components were dominant in Lybians

Pausanias. X.17. confirmed it telling about Lybian and Iberian expeditions to Sardinia around Trojan War era which almost coincides with a period of Sea Peoples invasions.

After Aristaeus the Iberians crossed to Sardinia, under Norax as leader of the expedition, and they founded the city of Nora. The tradition is that this was the first city in the island, and they say that Norax was a son of Erytheia, the daughter of Geryones, with Hermes for his father. A fourth component part of the population was the army of Iolaus, consisting of Thespians and men from Attica, which put in at Sardinia and founded Olbia; by themselves the Athenians founded Ogryle, either in commemoration of one of their parishes in the home-land, or else because one Ogrylus himself took part in the expedition. Be this as it may, there are still today places in Sardinia called Iolaia, and Iolaus is worshipped by the inhabitants.

When Troy was taken, among those Trojans who fled were those who escaped with Aeneas. A part of them, carried from their course by winds, reached Sardinia and intermarried with the Greeks already settled there. But the non-Greek element were prevented from coming to blows with the Greeks and Trojans, for the two enemies were evenly matched in all warlike equipment, while the river Thorsus, flowing between their territories, made both equally afraid to cross it.

However, many years afterwards the Libyans crossed again to the island with a stronger army, and began a war against the Greeks. The Greeks were utterly destroyed, or only a few of them survived. The Trojans made their escape to the high parts of the island, and occupied mountains difficult to climb, being precipitous and protected by stakes. Even at the present day they are called Ilians, but in figure, in the fashion of their arms, and in their mode of living generally, they are like the Libyans.