Why does it bother people so much that Greeks are genetically north of South Italians?

[Sikeliot]

I will not say "Slavicized" but just, northward plotting. You can decide if it is Slavic input, ancient Indo-European, Dorian, or whatever. Why is this a source of contention, why is it so hotly disputed and people put up so much resistance to the idea?

Genetically on PCA plots, GEDmatch oracles, etc, they are significantly northeast shifted of southern Italians, they are the equivalent of mixing a Sicilian with an Eastern European grandparent (or intermediate between Sicily and Bulgaria), they have a lot more haplogroups such as R1a and I2 than do Sicilians, and frankly, this shows in their appearance.

Why is this an issue? Specifically got my eyes on you, Turkish users, Artabro, and Tooting Carmen.

[Tooting Carmen]

I am not bothered by it. It is just you try to extrapolate too much from such data and just assume that Greeks ought to look much lighter and more Slavic-influenced than Southern Italians in the process, which is not really the case.

[Sikeliot]

I am not bothered by it. It is just you try to extrapolate too much from such data and just assume that Greeks ought to look much lighter and more Slavic-influenced than Southern Italians in the process, which is not really the case.

I didn't say "lighter and more Slavic influenced" but rather that their faces look, on average, more European. That is to be expected when they have double the North European input, and plot significantly north of them.

[Tooting Carmen]

I didn't say "lighter and more Slavic influenced" but rather that their faces look, on average, more European. That is to be expected when they have double the North European input, and plot significantly north of them.

OK, if you think that Greek women usually look like this:
http://www2.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Anna+Kournikova+Makeup+Smoky+Eyes+IxQbcqqVLpox.jpg

And that South Italian women usually look like this:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-StpWIZU4gpw/T098LV_ashI/AAAAAAAAAYE/spIHSxMnhoo/w426-h568/Najwa-Karam.jpg

Then go ahead. Just don't expect the rest of us to be carried along with this fantasy.

[Sikeliot]

OK, if you think that Greek women usually look like this:
http://www2.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Anna+Kournikova+Makeup+Smoky+Eyes+IxQbcqqVLpox.jpg

And that South Italian women usually look like this:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-StpWIZU4gpw/T098LV_ashI/AAAAAAAAAYE/spIHSxMnhoo/w426-h568/Najwa-Karam.jpg

Then go ahead. Just don't expect the rest of us to be carried along with this fantasy.


No, but between the two, there is more influence of the former in Greeks because they plot genetically north. If you have to resort to extreme hyperbole of what I have said, then it shows something about the simple fact of the relative genetics of the two groups fundamentally bothers you at your core. You have said before your idea of Greece is Cyprus, based on people you have seen in the UK.

Going the other way, southern Italians plot closer to the Levant than 90% of Greeks do, and this shows in their appearance.

[Tooting Carmen]

No, but between the two, there is more influence of the former in Greeks because they plot genetically north. If you have to resort to extreme hyperbole of what I have said, then it shows something about the simple fact of the relative genetics of the two groups fundamentally bothers you at your core. You have said before your idea of Greece is Cyprus, based on people you have seen in the UK.

Going the other way, southern Italians plot closer to the Levant than 90% of Greeks do, and this shows in their appearance.

I acknowledge that Cyprus is different from Greece proper, but individually most Cypriots could pass in Greece even if as atypical, and mainland Greeks still look closer to Cypriots than to any Europeans north of Marseille.

[Sikeliot]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06

[Sikeliot]

I acknowledge that Cyprus is different from Greece proper, but individually most Cypriots could pass in Greece even if as atypical, and mainland Greeks still look closer to Cypriots than to any Europeans north of Marseille.

Well genetically mainlanders are as close to Germans as to Cypriots....

You have a simple problem with reality and with fact, instead preferring to think of things the way you wish they were. I bet you cannot find any evidence to support a single claim you make.. or anything that is logically consistent with it.

[Dick]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06

Why do you choose those mixed mode ones? why not the top 3?

[Tooting Carmen]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06


I still see a lot of Jews on the Dodecad list, just as would be the case for South Italians.

[Sikeliot]

I still see a lot of Jews on the Dodecad list, just as would be the case for South Italians.

Ok now compare that result to this one (a Calabrese) and you will see why it makes no sense to put the two in the same group. Again, 75% Sicilian and 25% RUSSIAN.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.23
2 Atlantic_Med 23.61
3 Southwest_Asian 15.77
4 North_European 10.35
5 Gedrosia 6.07
6 Northwest_African 5.83
7 East_African 1.35
8 East_Asian 0.59
9 Sub_Saharan 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.15
2 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 5.82
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.1
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.53
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.53
6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 7.81
7 Greek (Dodecad) 12.67
8 Cypriots (Behar) 13.78
9 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.85
10 Lebanese (Behar) 15.97
11 Turkish (Dodecad) 17.23
12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.92
13 Syrians (Behar) 18.96
14 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.97
15 Turks (Behar) 19.39
16 Jordanians (Behar) 19.57
17 Druze (HGDP) 19.61
18 TSI30 (Metspalu) 20.05
19 Palestinian (HGDP) 21.08
20 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 22.74

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.19
2 92.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.2% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.31
3 92.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.31
4 93.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.6% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.36
5 93.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.2% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.37
6 92.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.9% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.42
7 93.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.1% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.44
8 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.45
9 92.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.1% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.45
10 73.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.48
11 93.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.2% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.48
12 69% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 31% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.56
13 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Chuvashs (Behar) @ 2.65
14 92.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.4% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.7
15 51.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 48.1% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.79
16 75% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 2.88
17 85.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 14.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.9
18 86.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 13.5% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.01
19 73.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26.9% Syrians (Behar) @ 3.04
20 91% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.09

[Tooting Carmen]

Well genetically mainlanders are as close to Germans as to Cypriots....

You have a simple problem with reality and with fact, instead preferring to think of things the way you wish they were. I bet you cannot find any evidence to support a single claim you make.. or anything that is logically consistent with it.

I have never seen any genetic plot or list that puts Greeks as equidistant between Germans and Cypriots. Besides, genotype and phenotype do not strictly correlate. I am sure I have seen genetic plots putting Spaniards midway between Norwegians and Sicilians, yet it is ludicrous to suggest they look as much like the former as the latter, and the same applies here too.

[Bell Beaker]

Why are you always bringing this issues?

[Tooting Carmen]

Ok now compare that result to this one (a Calabrese) and you will see why it makes no sense to put the two in the same group. Again, 75% Sicilian and 25% RUSSIAN.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.23
2 Atlantic_Med 23.61
3 Southwest_Asian 15.77
4 North_European 10.35
5 Gedrosia 6.07
6 Northwest_African 5.83
7 East_African 1.35
8 East_Asian 0.59
9 Sub_Saharan 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.15
2 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 5.82
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.1
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.53
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.53
6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 7.81
7 Greek (Dodecad) 12.67
8 Cypriots (Behar) 13.78
9 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.85
10 Lebanese (Behar) 15.97
11 Turkish (Dodecad) 17.23
12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.92
13 Syrians (Behar) 18.96
14 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.97
15 Turks (Behar) 19.39
16 Jordanians (Behar) 19.57
17 Druze (HGDP) 19.61
18 TSI30 (Metspalu) 20.05
19 Palestinian (HGDP) 21.08
20 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 22.74

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.19
2 92.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.2% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.31
3 92.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.31
4 93.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.6% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.36
5 93.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.2% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.37
6 92.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.9% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.42
7 93.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.1% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.44
8 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.45
9 92.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.1% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.45
10 73.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.48
11 93.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.2% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.48
12 69% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 31% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.56
13 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Chuvashs (Behar) @ 2.65
14 92.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.4% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.7
15 51.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 48.1% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.79
16 75% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 2.88
17 85.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 14.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.9
18 86.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 13.5% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.01
19 73.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26.9% Syrians (Behar) @ 3.04
20 91% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.09

Greeks are not AS Jewish-like as are Calabrese and Sicilians, but they are still MORE so than are most other Europeans.

[Tooting Carmen]

Albanians and Bulgarians on TA have constantly said that Greeks look different to them. Why don't you listen to them?

[Sikeliot]

Albanians and Bulgarians on TA have constantly said that Greeks look different to them. Why don't you listen to them?

Why do you not listen to me when I say they also differ from Sicilians?

You have been to Sicily, surely you know. I could see 10% of genetic difference not showing, but being double as Northern European cannot possibly not show, if not in coloring then in features.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks are not AS Jewish-like as are Calabrese and Sicilians, but they are still MORE so than are most other Europeans.

In the grand scheme of things they are close to Sicilians. But if you are very nit-picky you see that there is a difference.

You can model Sicilians as 75% Greek, 25% Lebanese also. If the whole Russian thing bothers you so much :rolleyes:

[Tooting Carmen]

Why do you not listen to me when I say they also differ from Sicilians?

You have been to Sicily, surely you know. I could see 10% of genetic difference not showing, but being double as Northern European cannot possibly not show, if not in coloring then in features.

As we have discussed umpteen times already, Greeks tend to be bulkier and stockier than Southern Italians, but that is where the Balkan/Slavic influence ends.

[Tacitus]

Look, our closest genetic cousins ARE Greeks (especially since we plot between mainlanders and islanders from what I've gathered) – not Ashkenazi Jews (no IBD sharing per Xue et al), not Cypriots, and certainly not any Near Eastern population. In fact, the only significant population sharing within the past 2500 years comes from the Balkan Peninsula.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17. The rate of genetic common ancestry between pairs of Italian individuals seems to have been fairly constant for the past 2,500 years, which combined with significant structure within Italy suggests a constant exchange of migrants between coherent subpopulations.

[Danaan]

I will not say "Slavicized" but just, northward plotting. You can decide if it is Slavic input, ancient Indo-European, Dorian, or whatever. Why is this a source of contention, why is it so hotly disputed and people put up so much resistance to the idea?

Genetically on PCA plots, GEDmatch oracles, etc, they are significantly northeast shifted of southern Italians, they are the equivalent of mixing a Sicilian with an Eastern European grandparent (or intermediate between Sicily and Bulgaria), they have a lot more haplogroups such as R1a and I2 than do Sicilians, and frankly, this shows in their appearance.

Why is this an issue? Specifically got my eyes on you, Turkish users, Artabro, and Tooting Carmen.

Tooting Carmen is a troll like you. A not European one for that matter. You complement each other.
The Turks are much better really. In general what Danishmend says is usually not very far from reality.

[Danaan]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06



Greeks can be different from Southern Italians for a variety of reasons like different native (pre-Roman, pre-Greek) inhabitants and different sources of extra admixture.
I personally believe that EHG admixture in Greece increased after the classical period, some of it can be attributed to Slavs. But how much of it can't be quantified because we don't know exactly how much the Classical Hellenes had and also how much more the Macedonians or the many Thracians of Macedonia could have had.

Bride kidnapping from outside groups happened often. Using mercenaries was quite widespread in the ancient world btw. Just like ancient Egypt used Karians and Greeks or Persia used Greeks among others. Also the slaves were imported mostly from the North East (Scythia -modern Ukraine- and Caucasus), especially during antiquity. I'm saying that because people have tried to attribute the so called 'Middle Eastern' admixture to slavery which is bs.

[Sikeliot]

Look, our closest genetic cousins ARE Greeks (especially since we plot between mainlanders and islanders from what I've gathered) – not Ashkenazi Jews (no IBD sharing per Xue et al), not Cypriots, and certainly not any Near Eastern population. In fact, the only significant population sharing within the past 2500 years comes from the Balkan Peninsula.


The Sicilian sample from Syracuse in one paper came up in between and overlapping with both Laconians and Cretans, but not overlapping with Macedonians or Thessalians for instance. Laconians themselves shift toward Crete, and Sicilians are more overlapping with Cretans than Laconians are. If samples were taken from Cyclades or the North Aegean, they would be somewhere between mainlanders and Sicilians. The closest Greeks to Sicilians, are Crete generally, southeast Peloponnese, and some of the other islanders.

What I am challenging is the notion Sicilians overlap with Epirotes, Macedonians, Thessalians, etc. They don't. Those populations shift northeast, and it is not a small shift.

[pelikarski]

Albanians and Bulgarians on TA have constantly said that Greeks look different to them. Why don't you listen to them?

It's Greeks themselves that said that they look different from Bulgarians

[Tooting Carmen]

It's Greeks themselves that said that they look different from Bulgarians

You and Trun have said so too.

[pelikarski]

You and Trun have said so too.

Well it is because we first and foremost look like other South Slavs and Romanians and even closer or in between Hungarians or Ukrainians.

For Greeka maybe it's the other way around because out of their direct neighbours, they may resemble Bulgarians the most.

[Sikeliot]

For Greeka maybe it's the other way around because out of their direct neighbours, they may resemble Bulgarians the most.

To me they look like Bulgarians with extra Med, and without the Semitic type of look in some Sicilians.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Look, our closest genetic cousins ARE Greeks (especially since we plot between mainlanders and islanders from what I've gathered) – not Ashkenazi Jews (no IBD sharing per Xue et al), not Cypriots, and certainly not any Near Eastern population. In fact, the only significant population sharing within the past 2500 years comes from the Balkan Peninsula.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Oracle results are more accurate , with that being said southern italians cluster closest to both ashkenazis and greeks ( more specifially cretans). then its tuscans and greeks from other regions

[Sikeliot]

Oracle results are more accurate , with that being said southern italians cluster closest to both ashkenazis and greeks ( more specifially cretans). then its tuscans and greeks from other regions

On many calculators they are closer to Moroccan Jews than to Greece or Tuscany. Cretans are their own population too, and should be considered genetically akin to southern Italians and Jews, not to Greeks.

[Seth MacFarlane]

On many calculators they are closer to Moroccan Jews than to Greece or Tuscany. Cretans are their own population too, and should be considered genetically akin to southern Italians and Jews, not to Greeks.
Feel free to show me ( not saying i dont believe you , im just interested ). Morroccan jews plot near cyprus

[Myanthropologies]

Lol, when will people stop talking about this? You've been making threads about it for almost a year.

[Sikeliot]

Feel free to show me ( not saying i dont believe you , im just interested ). Morroccan jews plot near cyprus

Here is a calculator called Near East Neolithic K13, one of the most updated.

SICILIAN:

#1: Caltanissetta

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 6.33
2 Sicilian 6.99
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.55
4 Cypriot 8.52
5 Jew_Tunisian 10.66
6 Italian_South 10.71
7 Jew_Libyan 11.2
8 Greek 11.95
9 Turkish 12.99
10 Turkish_Istanbul 13.08
11 Turkish_Adana 13.9
12 Lebanese 13.9
13 Albanian 14.45
14 Turkish_Kayseri 14.74
15 Turkish_Balekesir 16.06
16 Turkish_Aydin 16.09
17 Druze 16.99
18 Jordanian 17.82
19 Syrian 18
20 Turkish_Trabzon 18.3


#2: Palermo

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 5.02
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 5.71
3 Sicilian 7.12
4 Cypriot 8.53
5 Italian_South 9.54
6 Jew_Tunisian 10.74
7 Jew_Libyan 11.09
8 Turkish_Istanbul 11.55
9 Turkish 11.58
10 Greek 11.64
11 Turkish_Adana 12.35
12 Lebanese 13.15
13 Turkish_Kayseri 13.34
14 Turkish_Aydin 14.47
15 Turkish_Balekesir 14.62
16 Albanian 14.66
17 Druze 15.75
18 Syrian 16.47
19 Jordanian 16.57
20 Turkish_Trabzon 17.01


#3: Messina

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.17
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.61
3 Jew_Moroccan 7.96
4 Greek 10.23
5 Italian_South 10.45
6 Cypriot 10.9
7 Turkish 11.98
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12
9 Albanian 12.86
10 Jew_Tunisian 13.46
11 Jew_Libyan 13.6
12 Turkish_Adana 14.03
13 Turkish_Kayseri 14.67
14 Turkish_Balekesir 14.96
15 Turkish_Aydin 15.41
16 Lebanese 15.52
17 Bulgarian 17.16
18 Turkish_Trabzon 18.39
19 Druze 18.73
20 Syrian 19.13


#4: Agrigento

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.52
2 Jew_Moroccan 7.86
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 8
4 Greek 10.32
5 Italian_South 10.68
6 Cypriot 11.1
7 Turkish 12.72
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.95
9 Albanian 13.07
10 Jew_Tunisian 13.5
11 Jew_Libyan 13.6
12 Turkish_Adana 14.92
13 Turkish_Kayseri 15.38
14 Turkish_Balekesir 15.6
15 Lebanese 15.99
16 Turkish_Aydin 16
17 Bulgarian 17.49
18 Turkish_Trabzon 18.84
19 Druze 19.06
20 Syrian 19.62


#5: Catania

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.93
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.7
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.14
4 Italian_South 9.46
5 Cypriot 9.58
6 Greek 10.36
7 Turkish_Istanbul 11.39
8 Turkish 11.47
9 Albanian 13.24
10 Turkish_Adana 13.44
11 Turkish_Kayseri 13.79
12 Turkish_Balekesir 13.9
13 Jew_Tunisian 13.91
14 Jew_Libyan 14.48
15 Turkish_Aydin 14.54
16 Lebanese 15.88
17 Turkish_Trabzon 16.59
18 Bulgarian 18.21
19 Druze 18.24
20 Armenian 18.29


#6: Palermo

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.57
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.77
3 Jew_Moroccan 9.05
4 Italian_South 9.33
5 Greek 9.38
6 Cypriot 10.73
7 Albanian 11.86
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.54
9 Turkish 12.78
10 Jew_Tunisian 14.29
11 Jew_Libyan 14.72
12 Turkish_Adana 15
13 Turkish_Balekesir 15.45
14 Turkish_Kayseri 15.46
15 Turkish_Aydin 16.23
16 Bulgarian 16.88
17 Lebanese 16.91
18 Turkish_Trabzon 18.29
19 Druze 19.65
20 Armenian 19.87


#7: Messina

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 6.34
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.41
3 Sicilian 6.46
4 Cypriot 8.91
5 Italian_South 9.18
6 Greek 10.52
7 Turkish_Istanbul 12.17
8 Turkish 12.24
9 Jew_Tunisian 12.31
10 Jew_Libyan 12.76
11 Albanian 13.57
12 Turkish_Adana 13.67
13 Turkish_Kayseri 14.18
14 Lebanese 14.99
15 Turkish_Balekesir 15.07
16 Turkish_Aydin 15.35
17 Druze 17.15
18 Turkish_Trabzon 17.19
19 Bulgarian 18.32
20 Armenian 18.4


#8: Caltanissetta

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 4.86
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.01
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.59
4 Greek 9.05
5 Italian_South 9.15
6 Cypriot 11.38
7 Albanian 11.51
8 Turkish 12.33
9 Turkish_Istanbul 12.42
10 Jew_Tunisian 13.95
11 Jew_Libyan 14.23
12 Turkish_Balekesir 14.93
13 Turkish_Adana 15.21
14 Turkish_Aydin 15.64
15 Turkish_Kayseri 15.7
16 Bulgarian 16.32
17 Lebanese 17.05
18 Turkish_Trabzon 19.32
19 Romanian 19.59
20 Druze 19.97


#9: Trapani

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.32
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.18
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.85
4 Greek 9.78
5 Italian_South 9.94
6 Cypriot 11.27
7 Albanian 12.3
8 Turkish 13.24
9 Turkish_Istanbul 13.3
10 Jew_Tunisian 14.55
11 Jew_Libyan 14.82
12 Turkish_Balekesir 15.7
13 Turkish_Adana 15.75
14 Turkish_Kayseri 15.94
15 Turkish_Aydin 16.46
16 Bulgarian 17.29
17 Lebanese 17.42
18 Turkish_Trabzon 18.86
19 Druze 19.97
20 Armenian 20.47


#10: Ragusa

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.18
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.07
3 Italian_South 7.49
4 Greek 8.9
5 Jew_Moroccan 10.32
6 Turkish_Istanbul 10.37
7 Cypriot 10.58
8 Turkish 11.33
9 Albanian 11.57
10 Turkish_Adana 13.51
11 Turkish_Balekesir 13.71
12 Turkish_Kayseri 14.08
13 Turkish_Aydin 14.79
14 Jew_Tunisian 15.49
15 Jew_Libyan 16.27
16 Turkish_Trabzon 16.32
17 Bulgarian 16.62
18 Lebanese 17.27
19 Armenian 18.1
20 Balkar 18.96



CRETANS:

#1:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.09
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.58
3 Greek 8.18
4 Italian_South 8.19
5 Jew_Moroccan 9.78
6 Turkish 10.3
7 Turkish_Istanbul 10.47
8 Albanian 10.93
9 Cypriot 11.8
10 Turkish_Balekesir 12.87
11 Turkish_Aydin 13.75
12 Turkish_Adana 14
13 Turkish_Kayseri 14.37
14 Jew_Tunisian 15.37
15 Bulgarian 15.43
16 Jew_Libyan 15.73
17 Lebanese 17.39
18 Turkish_Trabzon 18.05
19 Romanian 18.73
20 Balkar 19.21


#2:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Cypriot 6.68
2 Jew_Moroccan 6.76
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.44
4 Sicilian 9.67
5 Turkish_Adana 10.16
6 Turkish_Istanbul 10.44
7 Italian_South 10.78
8 Turkish 10.97
9 Turkish_Kayseri 11.05
10 Jew_Tunisian 11.65
11 Lebanese 12.25
12 Jew_Libyan 12.56
13 Greek 13.08
14 Druze 13.14
15 Turkish_Aydin 13.95
16 Turkish_Trabzon 14.06
17 Turkish_Balekesir 14.33
18 Armenian 14.49
19 Syrian 15.28
20 Jew_iraqi 15.99



GREEKS:

#1: Epirus

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 5.68
2 Greek 6.33
3 Bulgarian 9.16
4 Sicilian 9.31
5 Italian_South 11.34
6 Romanian 12.7
7 Jew_Ashkenazi 12.89
8 Turkish_Istanbul 16.76
9 Turkish 17.39
10 Croatian 17.57
11 French 17.66
12 Jew_Moroccan 18.49
13 Turkish_Balekesir 18.82
14 Hungarian 20.12
15 Sardinian 20.6
16 Turkish_Aydin 20.99
17 Cypriot 21.36
18 Turkish_Adana 22.88
19 Turkish_Kayseri 23.01
20 English 23.41


#2: Macedonia

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.37
2 Sicilian 4.42
3 Albanian 6.08
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.13
5 Italian_South 7.85
6 Bulgarian 9.92
7 Romanian 12.97
8 Jew_Moroccan 13.56
9 Turkish_Istanbul 14.14
10 Turkish 14.76
11 Cypriot 17.32
12 Turkish_Balekesir 17.37
13 Croatian 18.12
14 Jew_Tunisian 18.48
15 Jew_Libyan 18.65
16 Turkish_Aydin 18.68
17 French 19.07
18 Turkish_Adana 19.39
19 Turkish_Kayseri 20.04
20 Hungarian 20.53


#3: Peloponnese

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 4.82
2 Albanian 6.56
3 Sicilian 7.95
4 Bulgarian 8.27
5 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.03
6 Italian_South 9.26
7 Romanian 11.2
8 Turkish_Istanbul 11.83
9 Turkish 13.25
10 Turkish_Balekesir 15.47
11 Croatian 16.09
12 Jew_Moroccan 16.2
13 Turkish_Aydin 17.24
14 French 17.54
15 Hungarian 18.23
16 Turkish_Adana 18.52
17 Turkish_Kayseri 18.99
18 Cypriot 19.07
19 Balkar 19.23
20 Kumyk 19.6


#4: Lakonia

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 6.25
2 Sicilian 6.33
3 Albanian 8.09
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.72
5 Italian_South 9.71
6 Turkish_Istanbul 11.04
7 Turkish 11.41
8 Bulgarian 11.52
9 Turkish_Balekesir 13.75
10 Jew_Moroccan 13.85
11 Romanian 14.95
12 Turkish_Aydin 15.3
13 Cypriot 16.33
14 Turkish_Adana 16.69
15 Turkish_Kayseri 16.96
16 Balkar 18.96
17 Jew_Tunisian 19.24
18 Jew_Libyan 19.44
19 Kumyk 19.85
20 Croatian 20.11


#5: Lakonia

# Population (source) Distance
1 Albanian 5.16
2 Greek 5.18
3 Bulgarian 7.46
4 Sicilian 7.55
5 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.76
6 Italian_South 10.1
7 Romanian 10.55
8 Turkish_Istanbul 14.3
9 Turkish 15.29
10 Croatian 15.65
11 French 16.55
12 Jew_Moroccan 16.6
13 Turkish_Balekesir 17.43
14 Hungarian 17.89
15 Turkish_Aydin 19.18
16 Cypriot 20.11
17 Turkish_Adana 20.69
18 Turkish_Kayseri 21.2
19 English 21.23
20 Jew_Tunisian 21.58


Macedonia:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 3.21
2 Albanian 5.41
3 Sicilian 6.53
4 Italian_South 7.98
5 Bulgarian 8.64
6 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.83
7 Romanian 12
8 Turkish_Istanbul 12.42
9 Turkish 13.44
10 Turkish_Balekesir 15.51
11 Jew_Moroccan 15.58
12 Croatian 17.16
13 Turkish_Aydin 17.38
14 French 18.25
15 Cypriot 18.37
16 Turkish_Adana 18.69
17 Turkish_Kayseri 19.12
18 Hungarian 19.57
19 Balkar 20.25
20 Kumyk 21.07



AEGEAN ISLANDS:

Rhodes:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.3
2 Sicilian 9.04
3 Italian_South 9.05
4 Cypriot 9.18
5 Turkish_Istanbul 9.19
6 Jew_Moroccan 10.08
7 Turkish 10.23
8 Greek 11.05
9 Turkish_Adana 11.07
10 Turkish_Kayseri 11.53
11 Turkish_Balekesir 12.66
12 Turkish_Trabzon 12.98
13 Turkish_Aydin 13.33
14 Albanian 14.36
15 Armenian 14.75
16 Jew_Tunisian 15.59
17 Lebanese 15.68
18 Jew_Libyan 16.44
19 Druze 16.77
20 Balkar 17.23


Ikaria:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.37
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 5.75
3 Italian_South 6.22
4 Greek 7.94
5 Jew_Moroccan 9.51
6 Cypriot 11.13
7 Albanian 11.15
8 Turkish_Istanbul 11.41
9 Turkish 12.29
10 Turkish_Adana 14.47
11 Turkish_Balekesir 14.86
12 Turkish_Kayseri 15.07
13 Jew_Tunisian 15.28
14 Turkish_Aydin 15.76
15 Jew_Libyan 15.76
16 Bulgarian 15.97
17 Turkish_Trabzon 17.29
18 Lebanese 17.75
19 Armenian 18.88
20 Romanian 18.92


Chios:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 7.17
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.25
3 Jew_Moroccan 9.16
4 Italian_South 9.81
5 Cypriot 9.93
6 Greek 10.13
7 Turkish 10.8
8 Turkish_Istanbul 10.8
9 Turkish_Adana 12.99
10 Albanian 13.04
11 Turkish_Kayseri 13.17
12 Turkish_Balekesir 13.42
13 Turkish_Aydin 14.12
14 Jew_Tunisian 14.92
15 Jew_Libyan 15.39
16 Turkish_Trabzon 15.91
17 Lebanese 15.99
18 Armenian 17.55
19 Bulgarian 17.74
20 Druze 18.33


Chios:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 6.15
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 8
3 Jew_Moroccan 9.13
4 Greek 9.67
5 Italian_South 10.12
6 Cypriot 10.71
7 Turkish_Istanbul 11.78
8 Turkish 11.91
9 Albanian 12.21
10 Turkish_Adana 14.29
11 Jew_Tunisian 14.31
12 Turkish_Kayseri 14.71
13 Turkish_Balekesir 14.77
14 Jew_Libyan 14.79
15 Turkish_Aydin 15.47
16 Lebanese 16.45
17 Bulgarian 16.94
18 Turkish_Trabzon 17.98
19 Druze 19.21
20 Armenian 19.39


Kalymnos:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 8.1
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.33
3 Jew_Moroccan 10.03
4 Cypriot 10.06
5 Italian_South 10.43
6 Turkish_Istanbul 10.63
7 Greek 10.94
8 Turkish 11.05
9 Turkish_Adana 12.58
10 Turkish_Kayseri 12.99
11 Turkish_Balekesir 13.44
12 Albanian 13.69
13 Turkish_Aydin 14.22
14 Jew_Tunisian 15.46
15 Turkish_Trabzon 15.65
16 Jew_Libyan 15.89
17 Lebanese 16.01
18 Armenian 17.39
19 Bulgarian 18.25
20 Azeri 18.54


Kalymnos:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 7.86
2 Cypriot 8.92
3 Jew_Moroccan 8.98
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.15
5 Italian_South 9.88
6 Greek 11.54
7 Turkish_Istanbul 13.45
8 Turkish 13.72
9 Jew_Tunisian 13.77
10 Albanian 14.14
11 Jew_Libyan 14.45
12 Turkish_Adana 14.66
13 Turkish_Kayseri 15.16
14 Turkish_Balekesir 16.16
15 Lebanese 16.2
16 Turkish_Aydin 16.73
17 Turkish_Trabzon 16.85
18 Druze 18.53
19 Armenian 18.69
20 Bulgarian 19.43


Cyclades:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 7.01
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 8
3 Greek 8.6
4 Turkish_Istanbul 8.84
5 Italian_South 9.29
6 Turkish 9.7
7 Albanian 11.19
8 Jew_Moroccan 11.83
9 Cypriot 12.26
10 Turkish_Balekesir 12.56
11 Turkish_Adana 13
12 Turkish_Kayseri 13.38
13 Turkish_Aydin 13.7
14 Bulgarian 15.3
15 Turkish_Trabzon 16.64
16 Balkar 16.85
17 Jew_Tunisian 16.96
18 Kumyk 17.57
19 Jew_Libyan 17.62
20 Lebanese 17.74


Cyclades:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 8.32
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.55
3 Turkish 10.06
4 Turkish_Istanbul 10.14
5 Greek 10.5
6 Jew_Moroccan 10.84
7 Italian_South 11.77
8 Cypriot 11.9
9 Turkish_Adana 12.78
10 Turkish_Kayseri 13.06
11 Albanian 13.24
12 Turkish_Balekesir 13.34
13 Turkish_Aydin 14
14 Jew_Tunisian 16.18
15 Lebanese 16.48
16 Jew_Libyan 16.61
17 Turkish_Trabzon 16.74
18 Bulgarian 17.03
19 Balkar 17.98
20 Armenian 18.05

[Sikeliot]

Lol, when will people stop talking about this? You've been making threads about it for almost a year.

When Tooting Carmen stops denying the reality and lashing out at me for it. He is even in greater denial than some ItalicRoots users since he cannot get past his preconceived notion that all Greeks are like Cypriots.

[♥ Lily ♥]

I wasn't aware of peoples general genetic ancestry in either Greece or Italy. :dunno:
It doesn't bother me in the slightest bit where their ancestors lived hundreds of thousands of years ago. I don't see why it should bother anyone actually.

[Tooting Carmen]

When Tooting Carmen stops denying the reality and lashing out at me for it. He is even in greater denial than some ItalicRoots users since he cannot get past his preconceived notion that all Greeks are like Cypriots.

I said Greeks and Cypriots are not the same, but they are both essentially Mediterranean populations whose phenotypes are often at the darkest end of the European spectrum.

[Argentano]

People dont give a fuck where they cluster. People is just tired of your stupid boring repetitive threads. They are all the same every year every week every day.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I will not say "Slavicized" but just, northward plotting. You can decide if it is Slavic input, ancient Indo-European, Dorian, or whatever. Why is this a source of contention, why is it so hotly disputed and people put up so much resistance to the idea?

Genetically on PCA plots, GEDmatch oracles, etc, they are significantly northeast shifted of southern Italians, they are the equivalent of mixing a Sicilian with an Eastern European grandparent (or intermediate between Sicily and Bulgaria), they have a lot more haplogroups such as R1a and I2 than do Sicilians, and frankly, this shows in their appearance.

Why is this an issue? Specifically got my eyes on you, Turkish users, Artabro, and Tooting Carmen.

As long as we overlap central italians and not balkans, it cant be slavic. it's dorian, probably with insignificant slavic, as well as north italian or frankish admixture. you can't overlap tuscany and be slavic the same time

how did you conclude that it bothers anyone?

[Sikeliot]

People dont give a fuck where they cluster. People is just tired of your stupid boring repetitive threads. They are all the same every year every week every day.

When people stop being in denial of what is true, I will stop having to point it out.

[Sikeliot]

I said Greeks and Cypriots are not the same, but they are both essentially Mediterranean populations whose phenotypes are often at the darkest end of the European spectrum.

If you think that all Greeks deserve to be grouped in with Sicilians, Calabrese and Maltese then your understanding is inaccurate and needs to be corrected.

[Myanthropologies]

When Tooting Carmen stops denying the reality and lashing out at me for it. He is even in greater denial than some ItalicRoots users since he cannot get past his preconceived notion that all Greeks are like Cypriots.

I don't think anyone is denying that Greeks are more northern shifted. However, you overemphasize the slavic input even though if we flipped the scenario, you would need 3 Sicilian grandparents to make a Ukrainian equivalent to a Greek. This means that Greeks and South Italians are far more closer to each other than Slavs and Greeks are, yet you always talk about how most Greeks can pass as "darker Ukrainians" when that's bs cause they dont.

[Sikeliot]

I don't think anyone is denying that Greeks are more northern shifted. However, you overemphasize the slavic input even though if you we flipped the scenario, you would need 3 Sicilian grandparents to make a Ukrainian equivalent to a Greek. This means that Greeks and South Italians are far more closer to each other than Slavs and Greeks are, yet you always talk about how most Greeks can pass ares "darker Ukrainians" when that's bs cause they dont.

I don't think they pass as dark Ukrainians, but I think most of them show enough East Euro input and/or other northern influence in their features that makes them more accurately at the darker end of the Balkan spectrum, not in the Sicilian/Cretan/Maltese one.

[Argentano]

When people stop being in denial of what is true, I will stop having to point it out.

i doubt that you are capable of stopping

[Antimage]

I will not say "Slavicized" but just, northward plotting. You can decide if it is Slavic input, ancient Indo-European, Dorian, or whatever. Why is this a source of contention, why is it so hotly disputed and people put up so much resistance to the idea?

Genetically on PCA plots, GEDmatch oracles, etc, they are significantly northeast shifted of southern Italians, they are the equivalent of mixing a Sicilian with an Eastern European grandparent (or intermediate between Sicily and Bulgaria), they have a lot more haplogroups such as R1a and I2 than do Sicilians, and frankly, this shows in their appearance.

Why is this an issue? Specifically got my eyes on you, Turkish users, Artabro, and Tooting Carmen.

I'm afraid you're the most concerned/bothered about this stuff out of everyone.

[Argentano]

You should ignore sikeliot when he makes this threads because you feed the troll and thats why he never stops. I ignore him but people like you keep bumping his repetitive threads.

[Sikeliot]

i doubt that you are capable of stopping

Not true. When people like Tooting Carmen stop getting hostile toward me because I refuse to deny the genetic truths, then I won't say anything.

[Sikeliot]

You should ignore sikeliot when he makes this threads because you feed the troll and thats why he never stops. I ignore him but people like you keep bumping his repetitive threads.

Upset because one of your parents barely plots in genetic Europe?

[alnortedelsur]

Typical Greek girl, according to Sikeliot:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AkFI5FKtfgg/TojqNzE0jrI/AAAAAAAAAKc/tq2-3m2-8Ds/s1600/IMG_5579+-+Copy.JPG

Typical Sicilian girl, according to Sikeliot:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ae/83/ea/ae83eac9d659dccf6a4c1f12be00587a.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Typical Greek girl, according to Sikeliot:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AkFI5FKtfgg/TojqNzE0jrI/AAAAAAAAAKc/tq2-3m2-8Ds/s1600/IMG_5579+-+Copy.JPG

Typical Sicilian girl, according to Sikeliot:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ae/83/ea/ae83eac9d659dccf6a4c1f12be00587a.jpg


?? No. I never said this. But Greeks will look somewhere between Sicilian and Bulgarian, is that not true?

[Tooting Carmen]

?? No. I never said this. But Greeks will look somewhere between Sicilian and Bulgarian, is that not true?

Yes exactly - Sicilian and Bulgarian, not Sicilian and Polish/Ukrainian/Russian etc.

[Argentano]

Upset because one of your parents barely plots in genetic Europe?

Yeah im upset because im practically a mulatto

I will stop because i dont want to bump crazy sikeliotid threads

[Sikeliot]

Yes exactly - Sicilian and Bulgarian, not Sicilian and Polish/Ukrainian/Russian etc.

Bulgarian is halfway between Sicilian and Russian genetically. So that makes Greeks 1/4 of the way to Russia.

[Antimage]

Upset because one of your parents barely plots in genetic Europe?

Yes he must be very upset about it :lol00001:

[Sikeliot]

I've put it kindly by saying Greeks shift north of southern Italians, but if you want I can flip it the other way: Sicilians are like 75% Greek, 25% Levantine. Will that make people happier?

[Tooting Carmen]

I've put it kindly by saying Greeks shift north of southern Italians, but if you want I can flip it the other way: Sicilians are like 75% Greek, 25% Levantine. Will that make people happier?

What will make people happier is if you stop this endless crusade in claiming that Southern Italians are so exceptionally exotic for Europe and that the rest of Southern Europe has little or nothing to do with them.

[Sikeliot]

What will make people happier is if you stop this endless crusade in claiming that Southern Italians are so exceptionally exotic for Europe and that the rest of Southern Europe has little or nothing to do with them.

What will make me happier is when you stop denying the truth. No one said 'So exceptionally exotic for Europe' but come on, Greeks are not genetically as outlying and do not plot outside of Europe. The only other people you can compare are Cretans, Maltese, and Jews. Why is it SO hard to admit they are all outlying and Greeks are not?

If the truth is offensive, then so be it.

[Tooting Carmen]

What will make me happier is when you stop denying the truth. No one said 'So exceptionally exotic for Europe' but come on, Greeks are not genetically as outlying and do not plot outside of Europe. The only other people you can compare are Cretans, Maltese, and Jews. Why is it SO hard to admit they are all outlying and Greeks are not?

If the truth is offensive, then so be it.

According to you, no one in Southern Europe actually looks, well, Southern European. Iberians look French or British, Northern Italians look Germanic (you even said they look more similar to Germans than to Greeks and Southern Italians - trust me, they do not), Greeks look like Ukrainians and Russians and, last but definitely not least, Southern Italians look Cypriot and Levantine.

[Sikeliot]

According to you, no one in Southern Europe actually looks, well, Southern European. Iberians look French or British, Northern Italians look Germanic (you even said they look more similar to Germans than to Greeks and Southern Italians - trust me, they do not), Greeks look like Ukrainians and Russians and, last but definitely not least, Southern Italians look Cypriot and Levantine.

They all look South European but with other influences. North Italians shift toward Central Europe, Greeks toward Balkan countries, Sicilians toward the Levant. Why is that a problem?

Other people are sick of hearing about it and fine, I understand that, but only you has a problem with the fact.

[Tooting Carmen]

They all look South European but with other influences. North Italians shift toward Central Europe, Greeks toward Balkan countries, Sicilians toward the Levant. Why is that a problem?

Other people are sick of hearing about it and fine, I understand that, but only you has a problem with the fact.

No, it is not a problem, but the point is you overstate these shifts when the truth is that Euro-Med populations overlap first and foremost with each other.

[Sikeliot]

No, it is not a problem, but the point is you overstate these shifts when the truth is that Euro-Med populations overlap first and foremost with each other.

But genetically they don't. South Italians are equidistant genetically between Iberians and Levantines, and some Greeks are in fact closer to "Slavic" Bulgarians. Even some "Southern Europeans" like people in Madeira have SSA genes.

[Tooting Carmen]

But genetically they don't. South Italians are equidistant genetically between Iberians and Levantines, and some Greeks are in fact closer to "Slavic" Bulgarians. Even some "Southern Europeans" like people in Madeira have SSA genes.

Genotype=/=phenotype. Levantines have Arabian and even some SSA admixture that make them look foreign for anywhere in Europe, including South Italy. Some Greeks may look more Slavic, but not most. And Madeirans are probably no more SSA than are White Texans.

[alnortedelsur]

No, it is not a problem, but the point is you overstate these shifts when the truth is that Euro-Med populations overlap first and foremost with each other.

I don't think that Iberians overlap more with Greeks or southern Italians than with Northern Italians, southern French or Swiss. The same way that I don't think Greeks overlap more with Iberians than what they do with Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs or Albanians.

Southern Europeans (be it Iberians, Italians or Greek) overlap the most with their closest geographic neighbors (even with their northern geographic neighbors), not only with other southern Euros.

[Sikeliot]

Genotype=/=phenotype. Levantines have Arabian and even some SSA admixture that make them look foreign for anywhere in Europe, including South Italy. Some Greeks may look more Slavic, but not most. And Madeirans are probably no more SSA than are White Texans.

Actually only 4% of white Americans have SSA DNA. Nearly all Madeirans have it.

Genotype does not always equal phenotype but if it is disparate nearly every time, as it is for you, then the issue is with YOUR perception. If you want to think all South Europeans look identical, fine, but it does not change the facts. Also, it is quite disingenuous of you to say I am constantly portraying South Italians as MENA outliers when out of respect I have always said Greeks plot north, not Sicilians toward the Levant, to portray the difference between them in the less offensive way.

[Sikeliot]

Southern Europeans (be it Iberians, Italians or Greek) overlap the most with their closest geographic neighbors (even with their northern geographic neighbors), not only with other southern Euros.

And the point I make is southern Italians are genetically out of place for their location. They do not plot between Iberians and Greeks as would be expected.

[Tooting Carmen]

I don't think that Iberians overlap more with Greeks or southern Italians than with Northern Italians, southern French or Swiss. The same way that I don't think Greeks overlap more with Iberians than what they do with Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs or Albanians.

Southern Europeans (be it Iberians, Italians or Greek) overlap the most with their closest geographic neighbors (even with their northern geographic neighbors), not only with other southern Euros.

True, but what I am getting at is how Sikeliot extrapolates this further and claims that Northern Italians, for example, overlap more with Germans than with their own Southernmost brethren.

[Sikeliot]

True, but what I am getting at is how Sikeliot extrapolates this further and claims that Northern Italians, for example, overlap more with Germans than with their own Southernmost brethren.

Not that so much but that northern Italians look much more Central European influenced than southern Italians do, who nearly lack such influences.

[Herr Abubu]

Typical Greek girl, according to Sikeliot:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AkFI5FKtfgg/TojqNzE0jrI/AAAAAAAAAKc/tq2-3m2-8Ds/s1600/IMG_5579+-+Copy.JPG

Typical Sicilian girl, according to Sikeliot:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ae/83/ea/ae83eac9d659dccf6a4c1f12be00587a.jpg

qts

[Mingle]

What will make me happier is when you stop denying the truth. No one said 'So exceptionally exotic for Europe' but come on, Greeks are not genetically as outlying and do not plot outside of Europe. The only other people you can compare are Cretans, Maltese, and Jews. Why is it SO hard to admit they are all outlying and Greeks are not?

If the truth is offensive, then so be it.

Are Turks from European Turkey (Turkish Thrace) genetically European?

[Sikeliot]

Are Turks from European Turkey (Turkish Thrace) genetically European?

I don't know how they plot.

[Seth MacFarlane]

True, but what I am getting at is how Sikeliot extrapolates this further and claims that Northern Italians, for example, overlap more with Germans than with their own Southernmost brethren.

There is overlap between north and south but italian user oddone says many southerners look exotic for north , i dont really have an opinion on the matter since i dont know any north italians so I'll believe oddone. With that being said southern italians have their own unique look imo , but mostly overlap with greeks ( moreso southern and island greeks ), Ashkenazi and other italians.

[Tooting Carmen]

There is overlap between north and south but italian user oddone says many southerners look exotic for north , i dont really have an opinion on the matter since i dont know any north italians so I'll believe oddone. With that being said southern italians have their own unique look imo , but mostly overlap with greeks ( moreso southern and island greeks ), Ashkenazi and other italians.

No disagreements there.

[Sikeliot]

There is overlap between north and south but italian user oddone says many southerners look exotic for north , i dont really have an opinion on the matter since i dont know any north italians so I'll believe oddone. With that being said southern italians have their own unique look imo , but mostly overlap with greeks ( moreso southern and island greeks ), Ashkenazi and other italians.

Yes, but the point of disagreement Tooting Carmen and I have is that more Greeks than southern Italians look "northern" influenced.

If you said "Which European population looks closest to southern Italians" obviously Greece. But do I think that many Greeks stand out due to looking Balkan? Yes, I do. That is the point. And Balkan looks are NORTHERN influenced.

[Tooting Carmen]

Yes, but the point of disagreement Tooting Carmen and I have is that more Greeks than southern Italians look "northern" influenced.

If you said "Which European population looks closest to southern Italians" obviously Greece. But do I think that many Greeks stand out due to looking Balkan? Yes, I do. That is the point. And Balkan looks are NORTHERN influenced.

Balkan looks are a Slavic-Mediterranean mix.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

It only bothers wogs who care so much about being white and national pride while we civilized true white people really don't care all that much.

[Tooting Carmen]

Yes, the percentage of Greeks with Northern Euro-esque looks is slightly higher than Southern Italians with such looks, but like I said to you I'd also argue that more Spaniards than Portuguese look Northern Euro-esque, yet that doesn't detract from the fact that those populations are very similar either.

[Seth MacFarlane]

Yes, but the point of disagreement Tooting Carmen and I have is that more Greeks than southern Italians look "northern" influenced.

If you said "Which European population looks closest to southern Italians" obviously Greece. But do I think that many Greeks stand out due to looking Balkan? Yes, I do. That is the point. And Balkan looks are NORTHERN influenced.

Greece borders the balkans where as sicily doesent so they'll have some balkan shifted types that is uncommon in sicily , geography does have correlation with looks should be no suprise

[Sikeliot]

Yes, the percentage of Greeks with Northern Euro-esque looks is slightly higher than Southern Italians with such looks, but like I said to you I'd also argue that more Spaniards than Portuguese look Northern Euro-esque, yet that doesn't detract from the fact that those populations are very similar either.

Yes. But even among the darker part of the population, the features differ because of the northern influence in the former (and what is reduced northern input in southern Italians, is higher MENA and native Med).

[Sikeliot]

Yes, the percentage of Greeks with Northern Euro-esque looks is slightly higher than Southern Italians with such looks, but like I said to you I'd also argue that more Spaniards than Portuguese look Northern Euro-esque, yet that doesn't detract from the fact that those populations are very similar either.

Yes. But even among the darker part of the population, the features differ because of the northern influence in the former (and what is reduced northern input in southern Italians, is higher MENA and native Med).

[catgeorge]

We look closest to our neighbours and genetic flow has gone both ways but aliens are very easily spotted in Greece even if they are our neighbours. Stop stop...

[Sikeliot]

If I was a Cypriot I'd be saying the same thing.. pointing out the difference in North Euro input. Maybe part of it is I do not WANT North Euro input in my DNA and thus anyone with more northern than me, I want to not associate? I don't know.

[Queen B]

Not again :picard2:
Who the fuck cares?

[Myanthropologies]

If I was a Cypriot I'd be saying the same thing.. pointing out the difference in North Euro input. Maybe part of it is I do not WANT North Euro input in my DNA and thus anyone with more northern than me, I want to not associate? I don't know.

That's dumb. Why are you choosing not to associate with someone over their DNA? You care too much.

[Sikeliot]

That's dumb. Why are you choosing not to associate with someone over their DNA? You care too much.

I don't mean individuals. I mean, I do not identify with Northern European heritage (which is forced on all Americans like it or not).

[Myanthropologies]

Sikeloit you are more northern than both Greeks and Sicilians. You're also Polish and Portuguese. By your own logic, you have less of a right to "associate" yourself with Sicilians than Greeks do lol.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeloit you have more northern than both Greeks and Sicilians. You're also Polish and Portuguese. By your own logic, you have less of a right to "associate" yourself with Sicilians than Greeks do lol.

On GEDmatch oracles I sometimes have less distance to Greeks than some full Sicilians do.

[Myanthropologies]

I don't mean individuals. I mean, I do not identify with Northern European heritage (which is forced on all Americans like it or not).

I'm american too, you know. And it's not forced on all Americans. If you say you have italian ancestry, nobody is going to force a "northern" label on you.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeloit you have more northern than both Greeks and Sicilians. You're also Polish and Portuguese. By your own logic, you have less of a right to "associate" yourself with Sicilians than Greeks do lol.

On GEDmatch oracles I sometimes have less distance to Greeks than some full Sicilians do.

[brennus dux gallorum]

If I was a Cypriot I'd be saying the same thing.. pointing out the difference in North Euro input. Maybe part of it is I do not WANT North Euro input in my DNA and thus anyone with more northern than me, I want to not associate? I don't know.

did you ever get bullying by northern europeans?

BTW the only people in Europe with not more northern european admiuxture than sicilians are maltese and cypriots, so they are the only with whom you can be associated

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That's dumb. Why are you choosing not to associate with someone over their DNA? You care too much.

Because Sikeliot is a hypocrite of the 1st Degree.

He will tell you that he is a Liberal person, and even thinks "Racism" is a horrible thing and got mad when Trump won because he thinks Trump is Racist, only because he wants a boder (that's very, very lite Racism if it is Racism at all) but then proceeds to be a Racist. Sikeliot is a classic example of the modern Leftist. Most modern Leftists, Mexicans, Aframs, etc. are all VERY Tribalistc, Racialistic by our standards, much more so than the dreaded Trump supporters, they just bash these people because it really is somewhat of a Race War when it comes down to it.

Hispanic and Aframs pretend to be 'against racism' even though they practice it themselves, but this is on purpose, so they can defeat the Whites and take over demographically, and of course then are able to exploit a powerless White minority as much as they want.

Sikeliot is no different, here is a man who is a "Liberal" but values Genetics probably more than any Trump supporter, and discriminates based on said genes.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot is no different, here is a man who is a "Liberal" but values Genetics probably more than any Trump supporter, and discriminates based on said genes.

I do not discriminate. But as someone who has been bullied not by POC but by people of Northern European descent, I personally do not want that in my DNA, much like many Black Americans do not want to think they have Anglo ancestry from slave owners.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot is no different, here is a man who is a "Liberal" but values Genetics probably more than any Trump supporter, and discriminates based on said genes.

I do not discriminate. But as someone who has been bullied not by POC but by people of Northern European descent, I personally do not want that in my DNA, much like many Black Americans do not want to think they have Anglo ancestry from slave owners.

[Sikeliot]

did you ever get bullying by northern europeans?

BTW the only people in Europe with not more northern european admiuxture than sicilians are maltese and cypriots, so they are the only with whom you can be associated

I don't mean personally or individually. My point is I don't want to PERSONALLY feel related to the people who mistreated and bullied me and who are responsible for this nations' racist and homophobic laws.

[Sikeliot]

My mother is the same. She identifies as Portuguese and even with her minor African heritage because she has an issue with British and Irish people and hates to be thought of as boring, bland, or majority.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I don't mean personally or individually. My point is I don't want to PERSONALLY feel related to the people who mistreated and bullied me and who are responsible for this nations' racist and homophobic laws.

i don't think that they bullied you because of your features or ancestry. Anyway, you know better, but it still sounds rediculous to not want to feel related to Greeks just because Greeks are on European side and you are "borderline". After all, Greeks do not overlap genetically and European population

[Sikeliot]

i don't think that they bullied you because of your features or ancestry. Anyway, you know better, but it still sounds rediculous to not want to feel related to Greeks just because Greeks are on European side and you are "borderline". After all, Greeks do not overlap genetically and European population

It's just that I am fine with everyone but I do not want people to perceive me in the same group as North Europeans. I don't like having to check the same box on the census as them either.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's just that I am fine with everyone but I do not want people to perceive me in the same group as North Europeans. I don't like having to check the same box on the census as them either.

the way an average Greek does not want to be perceived in the same group as any non-European. Ok, then I guess you can't be associated with Greeks, unlike the vast majority of Sicilians and South Italians who feel very close to us.

[Sikeliot]

the way an average Greek does not want to be perceived in the same group as any non-European. Ok, then I guess you can't be associated with Greeks, unlike the vast majority of Sicilians and South Italians who feel very close to us.

I feel close to some Greeks but not places like Thessaly and Macedonia which feel like Bulgaria to some

[brennus dux gallorum]

I feel close to some Greeks but not places like Thessaly and Macedonia which feel like Bulgaria to some

from what aspect do they feel Bulgaria?

[cosmoo]

Twisted anthropology (anthrotardism) combined with "muh gedmach kalkulators". Great.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Also, what I said about Greeks, that "an average Greek does not want to be perceived in the same group as any non-European", that goes for all Greeks, not only for Greeks from Macedonia or thessaly

[brennus dux gallorum]

one more thing




Genetically on PCA plots, GEDmatch oracles, etc, they are significantly northeast shifted of southern Italians, they are the equivalent of mixing a Sicilian with an Eastern European grandparent (or intermediate between Sicily and Bulgaria), they have a lot more haplogroups such as R1a and I2 than do Sicilians, and frankly, this shows in their appearance.

fixed:

genetically, Sicilians are the equivalent of mixing a Greek with a MENA, which makes more sense in history, plus, Bulgarians belong to the same quadrant with all Italians, not easter Europeans.

the last but not least, I have not seen even one autosomal map showing even Macedonia to overlap Bulgaria, which is on border with it

Mixing a Sicilian with an eastern European it can't give you a Greek, as Sicilians have not more western european ancestry than Greeks

Anyway, a session with a psychotherapist would be a better solution for your bulling traumas than wasting time and space in TA about armenian, Sicilian, Greek and Bulgarian phenotypes and DNA

[Sikeliot]

one more thing


fixed:

genetically, Sicilians are the equivalent of mixing a Greek with a MENA, which makes more sense in history, plus, Bulgarians belong to the same quadrant with all Italians, not easter Europeans.

the last but not least, I have not seen even one autosomal map showing even Macedonia to overlap Bulgaria, which is on border with it

Mixing a Sicilian with an eastern European it can't give you a Greek, as Sicilians have not more western european ancestry than Greeks

Sicilians have more SOUTHWEST EURO (Atlanto-Med) DNA than Greeks, because more of their ancestry is native to the Med region, both East and West Med, and less Steppe.

Bulgaria and Macedonia should genetically be the same??

[♥ Lily ♥]

My mother is the same. She identifies as Portuguese and even with her minor African heritage because she has an issue with British and Irish people and hates to be thought of as boring, bland, or majority.

So your mum has issues, ok. Would she stereotype me or hate me because of my nationality? (I'm English with mostly English and some Western Irish ancestry).... so would she hate me just for my ethnicity and nationality? I can't help my skin being white... nor change where I was born and raised. Does she only like brown people and hate white people? :icon_ask:

How can she stereotype all people in a nation as being the same? Every person has their own individual views. Even in general, most Irish people are liberal, and a lot of British people are tolerant too.

Your mum sounds like she stereotypes everyone in a nation as being 'racist'... when she's the one hating, stereotyping and judging people for their skin, or nationality and ethnicity.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Sicilians have more SOUTHWEST EURO (Atlanto-Med) DNA than Greeks, because more of their ancestry is native to the Med region, both East and West Med, and less Steppe.

Bulgaria and Macedonia should genetically be the same??
1) Such a thing as "atlanto-Med" or southwest ancestry does not exist, at least in official genetics. There is northwestern autosomal dna which is the same in both Greece and Sicily
2)Can you show me even one map where Macedonia overlaps South bulgaria? otherwise associating them would make you rediculous and would explain why all these europeans tended to bully you

[Sikeliot]

So your mum has issues. Would she stereotype me or hate me because of my nationality? (I'm English with some Western Irish ancestry).... so would she hate me just for my ethnicity and nationality?

How can she stereotype all people in a nation as being the same? Every person has their own individual views. Even in general, most Irish people are liberal, and a lot of British people are tolerant too.

Your mum sounds like she stereotypes everyone in a nation as being 'racist'... when she's the one hating on people for their nationality and ethnicity.


Our town is full of Irish Americans and they are not nice to her because she is perceived as foreign and doesn't fit. :(

[Sikeliot]

2)Can you show me even one map where Macedonia overlaps South bulgaria? otherwise associating them would make you rediculous and would explain why all these europeans tended to bully you

Well based on the DNA results of Macedonians on here who tested, they always got Bulgaria as their first match.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Well based on the DNA results of Macedonians on here who tested, they always got Bulgaria as their first match.

I repeat, any official autosomal map showing such a thing

forget the results which can not even be considered accurate, have you ever been to any college? only academic sources are accurate
https://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

can you spot one gr overlaping Bulgaria?

this map shows clearly why tooting carmen etc. are right, and why your claims are rediculous

[Sikeliot]

I repeat, any official autosomal map showing such a thing

forget the results which can not even be considered accurate, have you ever been to any college? only academic sources are accurate
https://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg

can you spot one gr overlaping Bulgaria?

No, but only islanders would overlap with Sicilians. THAT is my point. Other Greeks fill the gap.

[brennus dux gallorum]

No, but only islanders would overlap with Sicilians. THAT is my point. Other Greeks fill the gap.

particular islanders (not all, not even the majority) are close to Sicilians but do not overlap them, get your facts right.

also, till now you claimed that Greece is intermediate between Bulgaria and Italy. Can you see that this claim of you is also not supported in this or any other autosomal map?Greece is closer, if not much closer to italy than to Bulgaria

[Sikeliot]

particular islanders (not all, not even the majority) are close to Sicilians but do not overlap them, get your facts right.

also, till now you claimed that Greece is intermediate between Bulgaria and Italy. Can you see that this claim of you is also not supported in this or any other autosomal map?Greece is closer, if not much closer to italy than to Bulgaria

I said between Sicily and Bulgaria.

[brennus dux gallorum]

the conclusion
1) No Greek region overlaps Bulgaria
2) Greece is not 1/4 way from Sicily to Russia (as it can be seen in any autosomal map)
3) Greece has not less western European ancestry than Sicily, which would give no "Greece" in case of a sicilian-eastern European mix


I said between Sicily and Bulgaria.

you are right, i forgot that non Sicilian Italians are evil Europeans too

[Journeyman26]

All I know is my full Greek mother scores higher "northern european" than I do (half tuscan) on things like dodecad k12b.. but I score higher western european, from the italian side.

Mom:
1 Caucasus 35.6
2 Atlantic_Med 25.48
3 North_European 22.23
4 Southwest_Asian 10.96
5 Gedrosia 4.8
6 Northwest_African 0.56
7 Siberian 0.37

Me:
1 Caucasus 33.96
2 Atlantic_Med 29.61
3 North_European 21.25
4 Southwest_Asian 8.88
5 Gedrosia 5.1
6 Northwest_African 1.21

[Sikeliot]

All I know is my full Greek mother scores higher "northern european" than I do (half tuscan) on things like dodecad k12b.. but I score higher western european, from the italian side.

Mom:
1 Caucasus 35.6
2 Atlantic_Med 25.48
3 North_European 22.23
4 Southwest_Asian 10.96
5 Gedrosia 4.8
6 Northwest_African 0.56
7 Siberian 0.37

Me:
1 Caucasus 33.96
2 Atlantic_Med 29.61
3 North_European 21.25
4 Southwest_Asian 8.88
5 Gedrosia 5.1
6 Northwest_African 1.21


You'll never see a south Italian scoring North Euro like she does. But they may score more "Atlanto-Med" than her. SW Asian would also be higher.

[Percivalle]

All I know is my full Greek mother scores higher "northern european" than I do (half tuscan) on things like dodecad k12b.. but I score higher western european, from the italian side.

On Dodedac K12b the Northern European component peaks in Lithuanians though, and it's significantly lower in all the Northern Germanic people, including Scandinavians. It's more like an Atlantic Baltic component.

[Sikeliot]

On Dodedac K12b the Northern European component peaks in Lithuanians though, rather than in all the Northern Germanic people, including Scandinavians. It's more like an Atlantic Baltic component.

Yes. As I mentioned, Italians (even in Sicily) will get more "Atlanto-Med" (French like) than Greeks do. What Italians do not have much of, is Baltic type DNA.

[Percivalle]

Yes. As I mentioned, Italians (even in Sicily) will get more "Atlanto-Med" (French like) than Greeks do. What Italians do not have much of, is Baltic type DNA.

Because Italians are significantly more western than Greeks. On Dodedad K12b even Dutch, Germans, British, Swedish and Norvegians score high Atlanto-Med. On the other hand, Atlanto-Med decreases with Polish, Russians.

[Sikeliot]

Because Italians are significantly more western than Greeks. On Dodedad K12b even Dutch, Germans, British, Swedish and Norvegians score high Atlanto-Med.

Similarly, Greeks have more "Balto-Slavic" and Indo-European DNA.

[Percivalle]

Similarly, Greeks have more "Balto-Slavic" and Indo-European DNA.

Slavic for sure, Indo-European is very disputable.

[Sikeliot]

Slavic for sure, Indo-European is very disputable.

Indo-European is measured through NE European isn't it?

[Percivalle]

Indo-European is measured through NE European isn't it?

I don't think so.

[Wanderer]

Who says so in the first place? There appears to be a lot of overlap.

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

[Sikeliot]

Who says so in the first place? There appears to be a lot of overlap.

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

They span the spectrum from Bulgaria to the bottom of the southern Italian cluster, with those near the latter being islanders.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I do not discriminate. But as someone who has been bullied not by POC but by people of Northern European descent, I personally do not want that in my DNA, much like many Black Americans do not want to think they have Anglo ancestry from slave owners.

Well then you're being an idiot.

My cousin went to a school that was majority "POC" and had life-scarring experiences because of the way they bullied her (for being White). "POCs" can be assholes, too. I've known extremely nice ones, though, you can't judge them all by genetics and the same goes for North-Europeans. Yeah, there's some real dickish North-Europeans out there, but there's also some incredibly friendly ones. It's just generalizing and being racist on your part, which is ironic.

I can vaguely understand you, but you're taking it too far. You can have some pride in your own family's genetics but it kind of crosses the line when you start bashing others, and even bashing them for taking pride in their own..you trash talked Trump supporters for being 'racist' and then proceed to hold racialistic beliefs.

Like, I'm basically a Racialist, right? You don't see me bashing other ethnicities for doing the same thing, though.

Genetic pride for me but not for thee?

[JBoscherville]

I do not discriminate. But as someone who has been bullied not by POC but by people of Northern European descent, I personally do not want that in my DNA, much like many Black Americans do not want to think they have Anglo ancestry from slave owners.

The Transatlantic Slave Trade was started by Portugal, looks like your DNA has been compromised. Shame. Just think about it. If your ancestors had never started it? You'll never be able to escape that Sikeliot. I hope this weighs on you every time you look into the eyes of a tiny Afram child.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The Transatlantic Slave Trade was started by Portugal, looks like your DNA has been compromised. Shame. Just think about it. If your ancestors had never started it? You'll never be able to escape that Sikeliot. I hope this weighs on you every time you look into the eyes of a tiny Afram child.

your sig bro <3

im flattered to have one of my great quotes in there

[Scholarios]

Well there is to be sure a Slavophobia in Greece and the Balkans that stems from Northern European and Russian political entanglements and contradictory attempts at nation-building. You see this even among Albanians and even South Slavs also in the Balkans. (See Bosnians identifying as Illyrians, Ostrogoths, or Bulgarians as Scythians, Thracians Albanians and autochthony myth etc). It created a kind of inferiority complex of the WOG- an attempt to de-otherize ourselves by claiming we are the source of all north european's knowledge and status. Nevermind that this is stupid on its own grounds, because racial anthropology and romantic notion of "blood" has been disproved and is not directly related to modern notions about haplogroups, pca plots, genetic clines, etc.

But on the other hand, you represent the same black hand of that imperial interference- some outsider trying to tell us what we are and our status as it relates to you. Your theories have serious holes which you don't acknowledge and even I who was sympathetic to you at first got pretty tired of your selective way with words and biased attempts at half-assed scholarship. It is seriously fucked up.

[Sikeliot]

The Transatlantic Slave Trade was started by Portugal, looks like your DNA has been compromised. Shame. Just think about it. If your ancestors had never started it? You'll never be able to escape that Sikeliot. I hope this weighs on you every time you look into the eyes of a tiny Afram child.

The Portuguese started the slave trade, but my grandmother's DNA reflects that history. She is also descended from enslaved Africans.

[Sikeliot]

But on the other hand, you represent the same black hand of that imperial interference- some outsider trying to tell us what we are and our status as it relates to you. Your theories have serious holes which you don't acknowledge and even I who was sympathetic to you at first got pretty tired of your selective way with words and biased attempts at half-assed scholarship. It is seriously fucked up.

I'm not telling Greeks what they are, I am telling other people here, people like Artabro and Tooting Carmen to stop misrepresenting the genetic reality by wiping away the excess North European influence Greeks have relative to my own ethnicity. No one is better or worse than one another, just different.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

The Portuguese started the slave trade, but my grandmother's DNA reflects that history. She is also descended from enslaved Africans.

So she can be proud of the African blood but not the Portuguese side?

[Sikeliot]

I can vaguely understand you, but you're taking it too far. You can have some pride in your own family's genetics but it kind of crosses the line when you start bashing others, and even bashing them for taking pride in their own..you trash talked Trump supporters for being 'racist' and then proceed to hold racialistic beliefs.

Like, I'm basically a Racialist, right? You don't see me bashing other ethnicities for doing the same thing, though.

Genetic pride for me but not for thee?


I don't bash others. I am totally fine with Northern Europeans being proud of who they are, but I don't want their ancestry in MY OWN family tree.

[Sikeliot]

So she can be proud of the African blood but not the Portuguese side?

She can be proud of both and should be. But she is actually very ashamed of having African DNA.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

She can be proud of both and should be. But she is actually very ashamed of having African DNA.

So Africans should be proud of their slave-owning ancestors?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I don't bash others. I am totally fine with Northern Europeans being proud of who they are, but I don't want their ancestry in MY OWN family tree.

Yeah but you don't want them in your own family tree for stupid reasons.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Who says so in the first place? There appears to be a lot of overlap.

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

This map was constructed by a forum member, officially no part of Greece overlaps Sicily and all parts including the most southern islands score higher north euro

In official plots only Tuscany is overlapped by some Greek regions, and Bulgaria is never overlapped by any region

[Bosniensis]

Who says so in the first place? There appears to be a lot of overlap.

http://i.imgur.com/5jbkEdu.png

Greeks overlap with Jewish parasites... :jew::jew::jew:

[Sikeliot]

This map was constructed by a forum member, officially no part of Greece overlaps Sicily

Crete does. A study mentioned it. A few people from southeast Lakonia shift in that direction, too.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Crete does. A study mentioned it. A few people from southeast Lakonia shift in that direction, too.

A particular study may showed such a thing, not all. After all, the western part of the island differs from the Eastern, if Sicilians are so much mena then they could be closer to the Eastern, and still we can't talk about Sicily as a whole.

Anyway did you ever consider psychotherapy as a solution to your bullying traumas than posting all day about how much non European Sicilians are, and looking for other mena people in Europe (other than Maltese it's impossible, and in Greek border nothing more than eastern Crete )

[crazyladybutterfly]

because not all of them are

[crazyladybutterfly]

Ok now compare that result to this one (a Calabrese) and you will see why it makes no sense to put the two in the same group. Again, 75% Sicilian and 25% RUSSIAN.

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.23
2 Atlantic_Med 23.61
3 Southwest_Asian 15.77
4 North_European 10.35
5 Gedrosia 6.07
6 Northwest_African 5.83
7 East_African 1.35
8 East_Asian 0.59
9 Sub_Saharan 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 5.15
2 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 5.82
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 6.1
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.53
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.53
6 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 7.81
7 Greek (Dodecad) 12.67
8 Cypriots (Behar) 13.78
9 C_Italian (Dodecad) 14.85
10 Lebanese (Behar) 15.97
11 Turkish (Dodecad) 17.23
12 O_Italian (Dodecad) 17.92
13 Syrians (Behar) 18.96
14 Tuscan (HGDP) 18.97
15 Turks (Behar) 19.39
16 Jordanians (Behar) 19.57
17 Druze (HGDP) 19.61
18 TSI30 (Metspalu) 20.05
19 Palestinian (HGDP) 21.08
20 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 22.74

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.19
2 92.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.2% Russian (HGDP) @ 2.31
3 92.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.3% Russian_B (Behar) @ 2.31
4 93.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.6% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 2.36
5 93.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.2% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 2.37
6 92.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.9% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.42
7 93.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.1% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.44
8 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.45
9 92.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.1% Belorussian (Behar) @ 2.45
10 73.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Jordanians (Behar) @ 2.48
11 93.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 6.2% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.48
12 69% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 31% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.56
13 92.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.5% Chuvashs (Behar) @ 2.65
14 92.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 7.4% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.7
15 51.9% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 48.1% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.79
16 75% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 2.88
17 85.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 14.4% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 2.9
18 86.5% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 13.5% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.01
19 73.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 26.9% Syrians (Behar) @ 3.04
20 91% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.09

except that this is not a true result of a calabrese .

are you aware that there are cities filled with sephardi jews in some small calabrese towns??

[Sikeliot]

except that this is not a true result

Of course it is.

[crazyladybutterfly]

Of course it is.

as if you are a reliable source ...

[Sikeliot]

as if you are a reliable source ...

It is someone who came up related to me, who emailed me. They are from Reggio Calabria and related to one of my Sicilian grandparents.

[crazyladybutterfly]

It is someone who came up related to me, who emailed me. They are from Reggio Calabria and related to one of my Sicilian grandparents.

not that i am going to believe you but this relative of yours is clearly a sephardi jew. if you wish you can also post results of arbereshe people and pretend they 're genetically calabrese but it wouldnt be positive for your agenda

[Sikeliot]

not that i am going to believe you but this relative of yours is clearly a sephardi jew. if you wish you can also post results of arbereshe people and pretend they 're genetically calabrese but it wouldnt be positive for your agenda


Well this is a former member's grandfather who is Calabrese.. now you can STFU about Armenian never appearing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 7.21
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.64
3 Greek 9.89
4 Italian_South 10.03
5 Jew_Moroccan 10.2
6 Turkish_Istanbul 10.25
7 Cypriot 10.38
8 Turkish 10.69
9 Albanian 12.61
10 Turkish_Adana 12.78
11 Turkish_Kayseri 13.16
12 Turkish_Balekesir 13.56
13 Turkish_Aydin 14.43
14 Jew_Tunisian 15.5
15 Turkish_Trabzon 15.82
16 Jew_Libyan 16.14
17 Lebanese 16.33
18 Bulgarian 17.24
19 Armenian 17.5
20 Balkar 18.43

[Danaan]

A particular study may showed such a thing, not all. After all, the western part of the island differs from the Eastern, if Sicilians are so much mena then they could be closer to the Eastern, and still we can't talk about Sicily as a whole.

Anyway did you ever consider psychotherapy as a solution to your bullying traumas than posting all day about how much non European Sicilians are, and looking for other mena people in Europe (other than Maltese it's impossible, and in Greek border nothing more than eastern Crete )

Eastern Crete has Venetian influence. Vitsentzos Kornaros was born in Siteia.
Besides, Dorians were settled in the Eastern part of the island.
Kydonians on the Western and they may have been Anatolian IE according to some, although they may have had ancestry from Arcadia according to some myths..
I may have some ancestry (less than 12.5%) from the Western part of Crete but I don't like inaccuracies.

[crazyladybutterfly]

jews in calabria :

http://calabriajudaica.blogspot.it/

http://www.amicib.org/la-calabria-e-il-suo-passato-ebraico/

https://www.tripadvisor.it/ShowTopic-g187774-i1254-k4323854-Calabria_sconosciuta_la_presenza_ebraica-Calabria.html

http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/cultura/2012-08-21/terra-promessa-monti-calabresi-133332.shtml?uuid=Ab0gtbRG&refresh_ce=1

[crazyladybutterfly]

Well this is a former member's grandfather who is Calabrese.. now you can STFU about Armenian never appearing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 7.21
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.64
3 Greek 9.89
4 Italian_South 10.03
5 Jew_Moroccan 10.2
6 Turkish_Istanbul 10.25
7 Cypriot 10.38
8 Turkish 10.69
9 Albanian 12.61
10 Turkish_Adana 12.78
11 Turkish_Kayseri 13.16
12 Turkish_Balekesir 13.56
13 Turkish_Aydin 14.43
14 Jew_Tunisian 15.5
15 Turkish_Trabzon 15.82
16 Jew_Libyan 16.14
17 Lebanese 16.33
18 Bulgarian 17.24
19 Armenian 17.5
20 Balkar 18.43

and i have seen other sicilians results, they were all almost identical and none of them got armenian at 17 distance

again i dont believe you and if true you might as well have jewish ancestry since all your supposed relative results are all southern than average

[Sikeliot]

and i have seen other sicilians results, they were all almost identical and none of them got armenian at 17 distance

again i dont believe you and if true you might as well have jewish ancestry since all your supposed relative results are all southern than average

I can send you nearly 100 GEDmatch IDs and they all come out the same. Go take your crazy somewhere else.

[Peterski]

I don't bash others. I am totally fine with Northern Europeans being proud of who they are, but I don't want their ancestry in MY OWN family tree.

You are 1/4 Polish (or was that 1/8), so you already have Northern Europeans in your family tree.

[Sikeliot]

You are 1/4 Polish (or was that 1/8), so you already have Northern Europeans in your family tree.

Poles are East Euro. I am talking about Brits and Irish especially the latter who were very mean in my area.

[Peterski]

Go take your crazy somewhere else.

She is OWD and wants to ban Rainbowmimi from TA just because she is blonde haha.

[Peterski]

Poles are East Euro.

I am 55% North-East Euro and 36% North-West Euro on DNA.Land.

So the best way to describe myself would be North Euro. 36% is a lot.

And my results are very typical for Western and West-Central Poles.

[crazyladybutterfly]

I can send you nearly 100 GEDmatch IDs and they all come out the same. Go take your crazy somewhere else.

so why the ones i have seen are different?

[Sikeliot]

so why the ones i have seen are different?

I don't know you've seen them since you never post any.

[crazyladybutterfly]

She is OWD and wants to ban Rainbowmimi from TA just because she is blonde haha.

no , only because she is annoying

[crazyladybutterfly]

I don't know you've seen them since you never post any.

but i did

[brennus dux gallorum]

Eastern Crete has Venetian influence. Vitsentzos Kornaros was born in Siteia.
Besides, Dorians were settled in the Eastern part of the island.
Kydonians on the Western and they may have been Anatolian IE according to some, although they may have had ancestry from Arcadia according to some myths..
I may have some ancestry (less than 12.5%) from the Western part of Crete but I don't like inaccuracies.

Venetians are genetically closer to Greece than to Sicilians, moreover Crete as a whole along with most of the islands, pelloponese and central Greece has been part of Venice, but I don't think that those events left any significant genetic impact

Anyway, I remember a research which indicated that y-dna of western Crete was closer to Greek average

[Peterski]

no , only because she is annoying

Annoying for whom ??? :p

[Peterski]

if you wish you can also post results of arbereshe people and pretend they 're genetically calabrese but it wouldnt be positive for your agenda

Arbereshe are also genetically north of Calabrese, IIRC.

[crazyladybutterfly]

Arbereshe are also genetically north of Calabrese, IIRC.

that s why i said it

[Wanderer]

This map was constructed by a forum member, officially no part of Greece overlaps Sicily and all parts including the most southern islands score higher north euro

In official plots only Tuscany is overlapped by some Greek regions, and Bulgaria is never overlapped by any region

"Officially"?

[Meruru]

http://i.imgur.com/sqjNpdg.png

I wonder...

[Sikeliot]

http://i.imgur.com/sqjNpdg.png

I wonder...

This map seems a bit outdated.

[Meruru]

They're basically the same thing, I really can't imagine how or why a southern italian would be butthurt because of this, I am a newbie on this forum but from what I have seen, genetic makeup and appearance differences between europeans are overly exaggerated here, sicilians and calabrians are just a bit more western version of greeks, they had italic influences, while greeks received some slavics, but it's nothing major on both cases.

Btw, what do you think about these maps:

http://i.imgur.com/2rRCE5a.png

I think this one is a masterpiece:
http://i.imgur.com/ckWx4AK.jpg

Apparently, mainland greeks would be a more northeastern version of the very southern italians, but the differences are almost inexistant.

[CommonSense]

Because they aren't as northern-shifted in appearance as they are in genetic results. That goes double for Spain and Portugal.

[Sikeliot]

Because they aren't as northern-shifted in appearance as they are in genetic results. That goes double for Spain and Portugal.

They look more "northern" than southern Italians but not as much as Balkan Slavs is my experience.

[Damião de Góis]

Because they aren't as northern-shifted in appearance as they are in genetic results. That goes double for Spain and Portugal.

Just curious, what is your strategy for bumping old threads? How do you select them?

[CommonSense]

Just curious, what is your strategy for bumping old threads? How do you select them?

I don't. You'll have to ask hmmm 'Ed, Edd & Eddy' why he sends me the links to the reads via reputation.

[Damião de Góis]

I don't. You'll have to ask hmmm 'Ed, Edd & Eddy' why he sends me the links to the reads via reputation.

Well then, there are only 3 necromancers here: you, safinator and odin. I already got my answer then :laugh:

[♥ Lily ♥]

I couldn't care less about peoples genetics to be honest. I don't think many people give a hoot, nor care in real life, let alone feel 'bothered' by whatever genes people who live there have. :dunno: If something so trivial as another person's genes bothers people, then they need to get a life.

TA is a different place to the real world. I don't think millions of people in reality are losing sleep over Greek peoples genes.

(I saw a desperate poster (someone I don't like as he's often abusive to people and an idiot,) telling other posters how 'Ayran' he was recently and expecting praise and adulation... (some grovelling, pathetic, and lame male posters were actually praising him .... just for being 'Ayran' and 'Germanic'... pff... lol) .... but I felt utterly bored by him and unimpressed. I don't care how Ayran, blond, German, etc, he is... he's not Jim Morrison and he's nobody special in my eyes... and I still think he's a total idiot and I still don't like nor respect him. He could be the blondest or the palest guy on the planet and I still wouldn't give a hoot. (Most females much prefer dark haired guys anyway.)

(I don't respect people on the basis of their genes or their ancestry, or how pale or blue-eyed or blond they are... but on the basis of much more important things, such as mannerisms, insight, talents, skills, intellect, accomplishments, personality, etc.)

[Dimitri159]

I acknowledge that Cyprus is different from Greece proper, but individually most Cypriots could pass in Greece even if as atypical, and mainland Greeks still look closer to Cypriots than to any Europeans north of Marseille.

This is so true, especially when compared to south Italians. My family is Greek-Arvanite with ancestry from central Greece, so the odds are they would genetically plot closer to central Italians and Balkan peoples. However they most definitely look more south Italian in terms of appearance. It’s weird how thing work.

[Borealis]

It's true for Greek mainlanders but not Greek islanders and really it should not be much of a surprise, Greece does not have a barrier to geneflow from the rest of Europe like the Alps in Italy and is wide as opposed to the narrow length of the Italian peninsula, both factors act to make it so that south Italy has less of a link to central Europe than Greece does.

[Muffinman]

The only people mad about it are
1. Turks and other non-Europeans who beg to be accepted by Euros
2. Tooting Carmen, fat autistic homosexual with no life outside of TA
3. Lega Norda ShitalicRoots weirdos and their army of socks
4. Actual Greeks who told you 1000 times we do not look like Bulgarians

3/4 of these people are mad about it out of pure OWD or autism and it's pretty easy to tell who

[Dimitri159]

It's true for Greek mainlanders but not Greek islanders and really it should not be much of a surprise, Greece does not have a barrier to geneflow from the rest of Europe like the Alps in Italy and is wide as opposed to the narrow length of the Italian peninsula, both factors act to make it so that south Italy has less of a link to central Europe than Greece does.

In the end of the day, even mainlanders still look more similar to South Italians than any other neighboring ethnicity. I don’t care if we cluster closer to Albanians or central Italians, we don’t look like them. My family are Greek-Arvanites from central Greece, but they look a lot more south Italian than fucking Balkan or central Italian. End of story.

[Dimitri159]

The only people mad about it are
1. Turks and other non-Europeans who beg to be accepted by Euros
2. Tooting Carmen, fat autistic homosexual with no life outside of TA
3. Lega Norda ShitalicRoots weirdos and their army of socks
4. Actual Greeks who told you 1000 times we do not look like Bulgarians

3/4 of these people are mad about it out of pure OWD or autism and it's pretty easy to tell who

There’s a good reason to be angry about LIES. If I could show you genetic maps that I found then I would, but for some reason they don’t upload.

[Borealis]

In the end of the day, even mainlanders still look more similar to South Italians than any other neighboring ethnicity. I don’t care if we cluster closer to Albanians or central Italians, we don’t look like them. My family are Greek-Arvanites from central Greece, but they look a lot more south Italian than fucking Balkan or central Italian. End of story.

Agree, and Im happy that this is the case. I see Greeks as southern Europeans like the Italians and Spaniards, not Balkanoids. There's even a saying "one race, one face" to describe the two and indeed we know that southern Italy was settled by ancient Greeks, which is why they cluster with Greek islanders.

[Dimitri159]

Agree, and Im happy that this is the case. I see Greeks as southern Europeans like the Italians and Spaniards, not Balkanoids. There's even a saying "one race, one face" to describe the two and indeed we know that southern Italy was settled by ancient Greeks, which is why they cluster with Greek islanders.

Unfortunately so many people on TA would rather categorize Greeks as “Balkanoidd” for the sole purpose that the Balkans is slightly more north-shifted. It’s so pathetic and it makes my blood boil honestly. Idc if we look slightly more Levantine anyway. The Levant is also one of the cradles of civilization, not fucking Slavs! It’s all a stupid white-supremacy bias.

[Borealis]

Unfortunately so many people on TA would rather categorize Greeks as “Balkanoidd” for the sole purpose that the Balkans is slightly more north-shifted. It’s so pathetic and it makes my blood boil honestly. Idc if we look slightly more Levantine anyway. The Levant is also one of the cradles of civilization, not fucking Slavs! It’s all a stupid white-supremacy bias.

I would actually prefer it if the Slavic blood wasn't there in Greece so they retained more of their Mediterranean-ness but that won't change so no point worrying about it.

So Greeks don't feel a connection to the Balkans and instead to Italy?

[Dimitri159]

So Greeks don't feel a connection to the Balkans and instead to Italy?

I can’t speak for all Greeks but I feel a connection to both. On a genetic and phenotypical level I feel closer to Italians, especially to the southern & central Italians. But culturally we have a lot more in common with the Balkans, as well as a strong genetic influence (again mostly for northern Greeks).

[Ezio Auditore]

Sikelot is delusional.

South Italians are on par with mainland Greeks in terms of skin color. Moreso ALL of these southern European areas (Iberia - ofc depending region, Italy, Greece, etc.) are on par with each other for the most part... At least to the point where comparing them is a retarded waste of time. Features is a different story IDC ab it bc it's pseudoscience.

[Ezio Auditore]

I would actually prefer it if the Slavic blood wasn't there in Greece so they retained more of their Mediterranean-ness but that won't change so no point worrying about it.

So Greeks don't feel a connection to the Balkans and instead to Italy?

Agreed... I feel like Greeks close to the coast still have that med Greekness that id imagine... I barely knew of the slavicism that some parts had but I guess it's bc my stereotype of a Greek is a Mediterranean image not a Slavic one. South Italy doesn't have the Slavic influence to my knowledge so they are a good example of Mediterranean overall. But both either way are similar in looks to me in most cases

[Borealis]

Sikelot is delusional.

South Italians are on par with mainland Greeks in terms of skin color. Moreso ALL of these southern European areas (Iberia - ofc depending region, Italy, Greece, etc.) are on par with each other for the most part... At least to the point where comparing them is a retarded waste of time. Features is a different story IDC ab it bc it's pseudoscience.

One possibility is that Greeks prior to the Slavic admixture were actually darker than south Italians, and the Slavic admixture brought them up to the level of south Italians in terms of pigmentation(or rather down, because less melanin). But that wouldn't make sense because the south Italians themselves descend from ancient Greeks. Selection at some or all stages might've been a factor.

[stellan]

In the end of the day, even mainlanders still look more similar to South Italians than any other neighboring ethnicity. I don’t care if we cluster closer to Albanians or central Italians, we don’t look like them. My family are Greek-Arvanites from central Greece, but they look a lot more south Italian than fucking Balkan or central Italian. End of story.

Cope

[Ezio Auditore]

Cope

Agreed he's copinnggg hardcore. And ab the indian dude's post I got no clue what he's on ab ? Idk he's also coping hard like just Historymax brah... Slavs making Greeks lighter and on par with south Italy? Makes ab as sense as me having a period

[Borealis]

Agreed he's copinnggg hardcore. And ab the indian dude's post I got no clue what he's on ab ? Idk he's also coping hard like just Historymax brah... Slavs making Greeks lighter and on par with south Italy? Makes ab as sense as me having a period

shut up ape

[Ezio Auditore]

shut up ape

My bad bro

[Dimitri159]

Agreed he's copinnggg hardcore. And ab the indian dude's post I got no clue what he's on ab ? Idk he's also coping hard like just Historymax brah... Slavs making Greeks lighter and on par with south Italy? Makes ab as sense as me having a period

Dude you literally agree with the things that I’m trying to point out so stfu.

[Dimitri159]

Cope

Classification: “Alpine-Med”

You: still believes we look more like Balkans than we do South Italians.

You cope, anime fan.

[Borealis]

Dude you literally agree with the things that I’m trying to point out so stfu.

Ignore him, he was just trying to get her attention and simp.

[stellan]

Classification: “Alpine-Med”

You: still believes we look more like Balkans than we do South Italians.

You cope, anime fan.

it’s clear you’re mentally ill so i won’t waste my time arguing with you

[Dimitri159]

it’s clear you’re mentally ill so i won’t waste my time arguing with you

That insult was so original, good for you. Anime fan.

[Ezio Auditore]

Dude you literally agree with the things that I’m trying to point out so stfu.

I have a boyfriend and a wife??? Shut up bro I like anime too

Greeks are creator of civilization and endulge in anime bc they are civilized unlike u

I realized I had to tweak my opinion bc U dislike anime and it offended me a lot sorry


Ignore him, he was just trying to get her attention and simp.

Ur the simp India. I mog u to oblivion but u know this already bro. Sorry bro

[Dimitri159]

I have a boyfriend and a wife??? Shut up bro I like anime too

Greeks are creator of civilization and endulge in anime bc they are civilized unlike u

I realized I had to tweak my opinion bc U dislike anime and it offended me a lot sorry



Ur the simp India. I mog u to oblivion but u know this already bro. Sorry bro

I just find it strange how you thought I was coping when you pointed out the same things that I was pointing out in the first place. Are you dumb?!

[Ezio Auditore]

I just find it strange how you thought I was coping (for a girls attention) when you pointed out the same things that I was pointing out in the first place. Are you dumb?!

Yes

https://images.app.goo.gl/6NVJveBmZ5p3bH4k6

[Benyzero]

Yes

https://images.app.goo.gl/6NVJveBmZ5p3bH4k6

age 14 lil nigga get out of here while you have a chance. but I see not really anymore.

[Ezio Auditore]

age 14 lil nigga get out of here while you have a chance. but I see not really anymore.

Yes. But im still far more intelligent than the average user on this site. Cope hard, movged to oblivion. Im also jacked as fuck so i get more timder gorls than you

[Benyzero]

Yes. But im still far more intelligent than the average user on this site. Cope hard, movged to oblivion. Im also jacked as fuck so i get more timder gorls than you

your muscle isnt even developed yet. xD I bet you think you jacked because your abs visible and you are 50kg

[Ezio Auditore]

your muscle isnt even developed yet. xD I bet you think you jacked because your abs visible and you are 50kg

I an 5 ft 12 and 62 kg with muslce veins coming out of my bicep. So actually get ur fact corrctly before engaging conversations with me. Mogge

[Benyzero]

I an 5 ft 12 and 62 kg with muslce veins coming out of my bicep. So actually get ur fact corrctly before engaging conversations with me. Mogge

xDDD I have bigger dick than your arms , even the veins pop out more

[Borealis]

I an 5 ft 12 and 62 kg with muslce veins coming out of my bicep. So actually get ur fact corrctly before engaging conversations with me. Mogge

Lmao this is the dumbest/funniest shit I have ever read on this site and that’s saying something, I really hope you are not Luso because if you are then your IQ must have dropped by 50 points. Unless you’re trolling.

Also learn English you dimwit.

[RogueState]

Greeks are part of the Balkans, their culture, behavior, lifestyle, is much more like Albanians, Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and even Turks.

Ancient Greece + Byzantine Empire + Ottoman Empire built this relationship, it's not 50 years of Communism and geopolitical alignment with the NATO-West that will change the fundamental link

[Peterski]

Greeks are part of the Balkans, their culture, behavior, lifestyle, is much more like Albanians, Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgarians, and even Turks.

Ancient Greece + Byzantine Empire + Ottoman Empire built this relationship, it's not 50 years of Communism and geopolitical alignment with the NATO-West that will change the fundamental link

Sicily, South Italy, Malta, the Eastern Balkans and Greece all belong to Southeastern Europe (culturally, genetically too). On the other hand, North Italy, Portugal, Spain, Baleares, Sardinia, Corsica, southern coast of France and SW France are Southwestern Europe.

Only with the Western Balkans I have doubts if they should be included as a sub-region of Southern Europe, or of Central.

[山有扶苏]

Venetians are genetically closer to Greece than to Sicilians, moreover Crete as a whole along with most of the islands, pelloponese and central Greece has been part of Venice, but I don't think that those events left any significant genetic impact

Anyway, I remember a research which indicated that y-dna of western Crete was closer to Greek average
Venetians are not Italian northerners? If I remember correctly, Venice is in the Veneto region, which is Italy and the whitest place in northern Italy