Map of R-L617

[Peterski]

I made a map of distribution of people with my subclade, R1b1a1a2a1a2a2a (DF27>L617):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

http://i.imgur.com/87kvu5Y.png

I've counted several dozen surnames associated with L617. L617 families originate from Cornwall (seven families, more than in any other region/country), Poland-Lithuania, the Basque Country, Welsh Marches, Cambridgeshire, Northumberland, Aragon, Asturias, Scotland, Brittany, French Flanders, Ile-de-France, Belgium, Hessen (in Germany), Somerset, Oxfordshire, Essex, Kent, London, Yorkshire, Cumbria, Scotland, Durham, Devon, Isle of Man. There are also L617s of colonial American background (in Virginia & Pennsylvania since the 1600s).

[Ilma]

That seems quite precise, good work :)

[Peterski]

Some people think that L617 originated in Iberia and expanded from there to the British Ilses and to Eastern-Central Europe. But I tend to think that it originated in East-Central Europe and later expanded to the British Isles and to Iberia. The fact that older and more basal branches of L617 can be found in the East rather supports my point of view. All Iberians and Brits with L617 belong to younger, more derived branches.

[Peterski]

Distribution of L617 seems to correlate with Lugus-related Celtic ethnonyms and toponyms:

Lugidunon / Lugidunum (= Legnica or Głogów, in Poland)
Luguvalium (= Carlisle in Cumbria, in northern England)
Lugudunum / Lugdunum (= Lyon, in Rhône-Alpes, France)
Lugdunum Batavorum (= Leiden, in Zuid-Holland, the Netherlands)
Lugdunum Convenarum (= Saint-Bertrand-de-Comminges)

Celtic ethnoses called Lugii (later Lugiorum nomen - the Lugian federation), Lugi, Luggones and Lougei:

1) Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii


The Lugii (or Legii, Lugi, Lygii, Ligii, Lugiones, Lygians, Ligians, Lugians, or Lougoi) were a large tribal confederation mentioned by Roman authors living in ca. 100 BC–300 AD in Central Europe, north of the Sudetes mountains in the basin of upper Oder and Vistula rivers, covering most of modern south and middle Poland (regions of Silesia, Greater Poland, Mazovia and Little Poland).

2) Britain:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/2*.html


from the Lemannonis bay as far as the Varar estuary are the Caledoni, and above these is the Caledonian forest, from which toward the east are the Decantae, and next to these the Lugi extending to the Cornavi boundary, and above the Lugi are the Smertae; below Caledonia are the Vacomagi, among whom are the following towns

3) Iberia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astures#Origins

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Roman_peoples_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#Celtic


The Transmontani, placed between the Navia River and the central massif of the Picos de Europa, comprised the Cabarci, Iburri, Luggones, Paesici, Paenii, Saelini, Vinciani, Viromenici, Brigaentini and Baedunienses; the Cismontani comprised the Amaci, Cabruagenigi, Lancienses, Lougei, Tiburi, Orniaci, Superatii, Gigurri, Zoelae and Susarri (which dwelled around Asturica Augusta, in the Astura river valley, and was the main Astur town in Roman times). Prior to the Roman conquest in the late 1st century BC, they were united into a tribal federation with the mountain-top citadel of Asturica (Astorga) as their capital.

http://i.imgur.com/91eYtUe.png

[Hevo]

Some people think that L617 originated in Iberia and expanded from there to the British Ilses and to Eastern-Central Europe. But I tend to think that it originated in East-Central Europe and later expanded to the British Isles and to Iberia. The fact that older and more basal branches of L617 can be found in the East rather supports my point of view. All Iberians and Brits with L617 belong to younger, more derived branches.

It looks like it's an eastern Bell Beaker marker. Perhaps L617 will show up in the upcoming massive Bell Beaker paper.

[Peterski]

It looks like it's an eastern Bell Beaker marker.

Either that, or perhaps an eastern La Tène marker (or both):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Silesia#Celts_in_Silesia_.284th-1st_centuries_BC.29

[Rethel]

Distribution of L617 seems to correlate with Lugus-related Celtic ethnonyms and toponyms:

It can be, but until now, you have only 3 probes
from Poland? So it is quite risky, especially that
we have also other clades of western R1b here.

It is good, that you pointed on it, becasue I just
remind myself, that in northern Scotland was the
tribe Lugii also. Żeby było fajniej, there also were
two quite slavic tribes: Smertae sticking to Lugis
and Moravians (sic!) in later times on south... So,
as you see, it could be, but still Szots are also an
option. Firstly dissprove Szots, and then you will
have the next stage called Lugis. :)

=============

EDIT:

p.s. Now I read further, that you actually mentioned this :)

So it is one of common celtic tribal names, if not IE (are such tribes also).

[Rethel]

You should also na wszelki wypadek
add Lędzian, Luciców, Lędziców etc
and all "Łężan" (maybe like Łużyczan,
Łęczyczan and similar).

[Tchek]

Linked to the Belgae?
I suspect that I'm DF27, though I'm undisclosed R1b

[Peterski]

I suspect that I'm DF27, though I'm undisclosed R1b

Have you tried using Nevgen Predictor?:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205406-Nevgen-Y-DNA-subclade-predictor

[Rethel]

Linked to the Belgae?
I suspect that I'm DF27, though I'm undisclosed R1b

Maybe? But the small britonian tribe
had to be scatterd across the whole
island during last 2000 years...

[Tchek]

Have you tried using Nevgen Predictor?:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205406-Nevgen-Y-DNA-subclade-predictor

Thanks! but, it seems FTdna is needed? I'm on 23andme :/

[Peterski]

I just ordered FGC14951 and M225 (FGC31068) at YSEQ:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10773

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=13267

These are respectively British and Iberian branches of L617.

So if I turn out negative for these two, I'm probably L617*:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617*/

If I turn out to be positive for FGC14951, then I'm probably part-Scottish. Or... I'm one of those FGC14951 Celts (?) who stayed behind when others moved to colonize Britain.

[Rethel]

If I turn out to be positive for FGC14951, then I'm probably part-Scottish. Or... I'm one of those FGC14951 Celts (?) who stayed behind when others moved to colonize Britain.

Eee... Szotness. To much of them came here.
If they would multiply as normal Poles, propotionaly,
then they should contain today some 1,7 mln people.
Of course, they could more, they could less - but the
potential probability of being a Szot is huge. I deeply
doubt, that they all extincted or remain insignificant,
especially, that in other parts of the world they did
multiply hugly, so it should not be an exeption here.

[Peterski]

Three new L617s from Belarus, Grodno Oblast, are also ethnic Poles - but not closely related to my subclade:


https://i.imgur.com/CkQfPIV.png


Meanwhile we finally have some L617s in ancient DNA record, including French La Tene dated to 300-200 BC:


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?354190-Large-Scale-Migration-into-Southern-Britain-During-the-Middle-to-Late-Bronze-Age&p=7388276&viewfull=1#post7388276

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?356982-I2-Y3120-discovered-in-a-sample-from-Croatia-from-1500-1000-BCE&p=7388101&viewfull=1#post7388101