Scytho-Sarmatian genetics

[TheForeigner]

What do genetic studies say about the genetic makeup and relatedness with other peoples of Scythians and Sarmatians?

[Pahli]

West Eurasian Scytho-Sarmatians were around 10% Mongoloid and can be set up to be 2/3 Baltic and 1/3 Afghan Pashtun or 50% Baltic and 50% Tajik Pomiri (East Iranian minority). This sample is from Volga, 300 - 200 B.C.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 39.61
2 West-Asian 24.65
3 Samoedic 10.51
4 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 9.26
5 Indo-Iranian 3.98
6 North-European-Mesolithic 2.64
7 East-Siberean 2.05
8 North-Amerind 1.96
9 Indian 1.64
10 Mesoamerican 1.22
11 North-Siberean 1.2
12 East-South-Asian 1.1
13 Arctic-Amerind 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tatar (derived) 14.69
2 Tartar_Mishar (derived) 18.21
3 Chuvash (derived) 18.74
4 Tatar_Lithuania (derived) 18.89
5 Tatar_Kryashen (derived) 19.42
6 Komi (derived) 21.51
7 Udmurd (derived) 23.06
8 Latvian_V (derived) 23.94
9 Nogai (derived) 24.33
10 Mari (derived) 24.78
11 Bashkir (derived) 24.88
12 Tatar_Crim (derived) 25
13 Gagauz (derived) 25.64
14 Bosnian (derived) 25.9
15 Aleut (derived) 25.91
16 Tadjik (derived) 26.25
17 Mordovian_V (derived) 26.54
18 Romania (derived) 26.58
19 Bulgarian (derived) 26.69
20 Mordovian (derived) 26.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.2% Komi (derived) + 39.8% Tabassaran (derived) @ 4.64
2 61.2% Komi (derived) + 38.8% Avar (derived) @ 4.75
3 61.5% Komi (derived) + 38.5% Lak (derived) @ 4.83
4 62.1% Komi (derived) + 37.9% Lezgin (derived) @ 4.97
5 64.7% Chuvash (derived) + 35.3% Avar (derived) @ 5.33
6 63.8% Chuvash (derived) + 36.2% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.49
7 62% Komi (derived) + 38% Chechen (derived) @ 5.67
8 65.1% Chuvash (derived) + 34.9% Lak (derived) @ 5.78
9 71% Tatar (derived) + 29% Avar (derived) @ 5.95
10 78.5% Komi (derived) + 21.5% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.1
11 65.8% Chuvash (derived) + 34.2% Lezgin (derived) @ 6.1
12 50.4% Tadjik (derived) + 49.6% Mordovian (derived) @ 6.12
13 80.4% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) + 19.6% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.17
14 85% Tatar (derived) + 15% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.27
15 64.1% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) + 35.9% Avar (derived) @ 6.3
16 63.5% Komi (derived) + 36.5% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 6.31
17 70.4% Tatar (derived) + 29.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 6.39
18 61.4% Komi (derived) + 38.6% Adygei (derived) @ 6.4
19 61.8% Komi (derived) + 38.2% Kabardinian (derived) @ 6.46
20 65.4% Komi (derived) + 34.6% Ossetian (derived) @ 6.49

This is believed to be Scythian in Eastern Hungary, around 900 - 800 B.C:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 40.96
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 26.72
3 West-Asian 18.72
4 Mesoamerican 3.64
5 Samoedic 3.57
6 North-Amerind 2.46
7 Indo-Iranian 1.54
8 North-European-Mesolithic 1.34
9 North-Siberean 0.89
10 Arctic-Amerind 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian (derived) 12.22
2 Macedonian (derived) 12.3
3 Romania (derived) 12.36
4 Bulgarian (derived) 12.6
5 Montenegrin (derived) 12.83
6 Gagauz (derived) 12.86
7 Bosnian (derived) 13.01
8 Hungarian (derived) 14.39
9 Croatian (derived) 14.51
10 German_V (derived) 15.06
11 Austrian (derived) 15.44
12 German-South (derived) 15.5
13 German (derived) 15.89
14 Slovenian (derived) 16.5
15 CEU_V (derived) 16.98
16 Swiss (derived) 17.71
17 CEU (derived) 17.82
18 Croatian_V (derived) 18.23
19 German-North (derived) 18.26
20 British (derived) 18.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.7% Austrian (derived) + 27.3% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.57
2 73.5% Austrian (derived) + 26.5% Lak (derived) @ 5.63
3 73.7% Austrian (derived) + 26.3% Avar (derived) @ 5.65
4 70.6% CEU_V (derived) + 29.4% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.79
5 73.4% German_V (derived) + 26.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.8
6 71.6% CEU_V (derived) + 28.4% Avar (derived) @ 5.81
7 69.7% German-North (derived) + 30.3% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.81
8 67.2% German-North (derived) + 32.8% Balkarian (derived) @ 5.82
9 73.8% Austrian (derived) + 26.2% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.84
10 70.6% German (derived) + 29.4% Balkarian (derived) @ 5.85
11 78% German (derived) + 22% Abhkasian (derived) @ 5.87
12 71.5% CEU_V (derived) + 28.5% Lak (derived) @ 5.88
13 74.2% German_V (derived) + 25.8% Lak (derived) @ 5.88
14 72.9% German (derived) + 27.1% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.89
15 74.4% German_V (derived) + 25.6% Avar (derived) @ 5.9
16 69% German-North (derived) + 31% Chechen (derived) @ 5.93
17 71.7% CEU_V (derived) + 28.3% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.96
18 74.3% German (derived) + 25.7% Ossetian (derived) @ 5.99
19 72.9% Austrian (derived) + 27.1% Chechen (derived) @ 6
20 74.5% German_V (derived) + 25.5% Lezgin (derived) @ 6.01

The difference between the two samples is the greatly reduced Anatolian farmer admixture in the Volga sample and slightly reduced West Asian admixture in the Hungarian one, otherwise they are pretty much similar in NE European and Mongoloid admixture.

[TheForeigner]

How did they get Afghan or Tajik admixture or the Mongoloid?

[TheForeigner]

bump

[Pahli]

How did they get Afghan or Tajik admixture or the Mongoloid?

Because they had some admixture from native Central Asian farmers which Tajiks and Afghans share most of their ancestry from. I assume they would have been similar to modern Balochis or Brahuis. The Mongoloid most likely comes from the Altai region, which was overlapped by the Andronovo culture.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png/300px-Indo-Iranian_origins.png

[TheForeigner]

Because they had some admixture from native Central Asian farmers which Tajiks and Afghans share most of their ancestry from. I assume they would have been similar to modern Balochis or Brahuis. The Mongoloid most likely comes from the Altai region, which was overlapped by the Andronovo culture.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png/300px-Indo-Iranian_origins.png

How come they were so tall and light pigmented then?

[Pahli]

How come they were so tall and light pigmented then?

They were dominantly Caucasoid of NE European and West Asian admixture, both passes on genes for light pigmentation, and they had relatively low South Asian (5%) and Mongoloid admixture (10%) which didn't really affect them. As for being tall, I guess it comes with the NE European admixture, although I'm 190cm myself and Kurdish, so I'm not sure how that works.

[TheForeigner]

They were dominantly Caucasoid of NE European and West Asian admixture, both passes on genes for light pigmentation, and they had relatively low South Asian (5%) and Mongoloid admixture (10%) which didn't really affect them. As for being tall, I guess it comes with the NE European admixture. Although I'm 190cm myself and I'm Kurdish, so I'm not sure how that works.
South Asian admixture too? How the hell would they get that?

[Pahli]

South Asian admixture too? How the hell would they get that?

Native Central Asian farmers were dominantly CHG + some South Asian (I assume 20 - 30%) thats where they got it from.

[blogen]

How did they get Afghan or Tajik admixture or the Mongoloid?

Slowly but continously since the Bronze age.

[TheForeigner]

Native Central Asian farmers were dominantly CHG + some South Asian (I assume 20 - 30%) thats where they got it from.

Is this all Veddoid?

[TheForeigner]

Slowly but continously since the Bronze age.

And they probably got their Iranian language from these people.

[Nurzat]

They were dominantly Caucasoid of NE European and West Asian admixture, both passes on genes for light pigmentation, and they had relatively low South Asian (5%) and Mongoloid admixture (10%) which didn't really affect them. As for being tall, I guess it comes with the NE European admixture, although I'm 190cm myself and Kurdish, so I'm not sure how that works.

did Sarmatians locally evolve in the Russian-Ukrainian-Romanian steppe from Indo-Europeans or did they come from Persian region back to Southeastern Europe at some point?

[Hadouken]

Is this all Veddoid?

you mean ASI I guess . no most of it isnt

btw. I come out as 1/4 Scythian in 1-2 specific ancient calculators xD not sure how accurate that is though

[Nurzat]

you mean ASI I guess . no most of it isnt

btw. I come out as 1/4 Scythian in 1-2 specific ancient calculators xD not sure how accurate that is though

as Kurd, aren't you Iranic anyway? do you understand Persian language? and - would you pass in Iran?

[Hadouken]

as Kurd, aren't you Iranic anyway? do you understand Persian language? and - would you pass in Iran?

Iranic is a language and to a certain extent cultural category and has not much to do with genetics except that Iranics share SOME components . and especially looks differ between "iranics" too . no I cant understand persian language

yes I would pass in Iran but most Iranians look different from me (I know many) . in Iran I would pass best in the north/northwest

[Pahli]

did Sarmatians locally evolved from Indo-Europeans or did they come from Persian region back to Southeastern Europe at some point?

They evolved from the Andronovo culture in Central Asia and migrated Westward, there's a sample of a Scythian that dates back almost 3000 years ago.


Is this all Veddoid?

Well, South Asian is something like 65% West Eurasian (CHG) + 35% Aboriginal or so called Ancient South Indian. You'd need some decent amount of South Asian admixture to have influence, it usually comes with Veddoid skin pigmentation genes, but with 5% I think thats almost non-existant.

[TheForeigner]

How far north and west did ASI people migrate? How did they come from India to Central Asia?

[Halgurd]

as Kurd, aren't you Iranic anyway? do you understand Persian language? and - would you pass in Iran?

its difficult for kurds to understand farsi but it is not very difficult to learn, it should be easier for a kurd to learn farsi than lets say learn turkish

[Nurzat]

its difficult for kurds to understand farsi but it is not very difficult to learn, it should be easier for a kurd to learn farsi than lets say learn turkish

Kurds in Iran all speak Iranian? like natives? do they keep their Kurdish identity too or do they melt into the Iranian one?

[Pahli]

How fa north and west did ASI people migrate? How did they come from India to Central Asia?

ASI I think has been present as far as the lower parts of West Asia. Near West Iran, Iran_Neolithic from Kermanshah had 20% South Asian admixture and almost 80% CHG. CHG also migrated Eastward towards India, so at some point this is where "South Asian" emerged from, a mix of CHG and ASI. They might have migrated back or the ASI component was already present in these regions and admixed into CHG.

[Pahli]

Kurds in Iran all speak Iranian? like natives? do they keep their Kurdish identity too or do they melt into the Iranian one?

They usually have their own identity, but I think the shi'ite Kurds / Feyli Kurds (like me) are more prone to identify as Iranian, although it depends on how religious and assimilated they are.

[Nurzat]

They usually have their own identity, but I think the shi'ite Kurds / Feyli Kurds (like me) are more prone to identify as Iranian, although it depends on how religious and assimilated they are.

see this thread and my comment - am I right about Iranian faces? I think you have some interesting mix there with Bactria-Margiana farmers, Steppe Aryans and even Steppe Turkomongols

www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?199574-some-more-Persian-awesomeness

[Hadouken]

^ I will post some persian faces if you want

[blogen]

And they probably got their Iranian language from these people.

Not from the Mongoloids. The watershed of the Pamir and the Tarim basin was a contact zone between the Eastern Eurasian (Mongoloid) and the Central Eurasian (Europid) peoples. The slow and low level Europo-Mongoloidization of the Tarim basin and Pamir Iranians was not an ethnicized process, but a slow admixture only, legacy of ancient individual contacts.


Gumugou cemetery, Kongque River: 3800 years BP
18 skulls (11 male and 7 female)
- all of them Protoeuropid

Yanbulak cemetery, Hami: 3100-2500 years BP
29 skulls
- 21 of them were Tibetan type Mongoloid
- 9 skull were Pamiro-Mediterranid character

Alagou cemetery, Tian Mountains: 2700-2000 years BP
58 skulls (33 male and 25 female)
- mostly Eastern Mediterranid + Pamirid admixture
- some of the were Europo-Mongoloid

Tudunmu cemetery, Zhaosu: 2400-1800 years BP
13 skulls (7 male and 6 female)
- all of them were Pamirids
- two women were Mongolo-Pamirids

Shanpula cemetery, Luopu: 2200 years BP
56 skulls
- all of them Europo-Mongoloid Pamirid

Loulan eastern suburs cemetery: 1800 years BP
6 skulls (5 male and 1 female)
- 5 clear East Mediterranid male
- 1 Mongoloid female

etc. (some smally cemetery and grave)

all cemetery: 3800-1800 years BP
274 skulls
- 10% of them had Mongoloid character
- their majority were Pamirid and Eastern Mediterranid or some admixture of this two character

source: Han Kangxin: The Study of Ancient Human Skeletons from Xinjiang - Institute of Archeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Beijing - 1994

Tipical ancient look Europo-Mongoloid Pamirid from Tajikistan:
https://i.img.ie/00N.jpg

Hovewer, the Pamirids were an interesting admixture of three race: local Mediterranids (preAryan BMAC population), Cromagnoid conquerors (Aryans) and this very unsignificant, but definitely existing little Mongoloid admixture.

The carriers of the Indo-Europan language were Cromagnoids mostly from Central Asia.


"Thus, the existence of two zones (Eurasian steppe pastoralists and south Central Asian farmers), obtained by aligning an Indo-Iranian culture with a definite ECT, is supported by anthropological evidence: in the south there was the Mediterranean type and in the north there was the Andronovo variant of the proto-Europoid from which descend both the nomadic and farming Iranian population of north Central Asia and Kazakhstan of the 8th–4th centuries BC (Khodzhajov 1977: 13; 1983: 100-102; Alekseev et al. 1986: 125-130). The proposition of a suite of morphological forms, advanced by anthropologists, that finds a northern origin for the Andronovo and Tazabagyab series based on ethnogenetic factors assigned to a steppe ECT (Alekseev et al. 1986: 127) are in complete accord with our independent conclusions."

And this population in India:

"Among the 25 skulls from Timargarha this type is represented, as well as a massive proto-Caucasoid (Protoeuropid) type which was distinctive for the steppe Andronovans, a Veddoid (3 skulls) usual for the indigenous inhabitants of Hindustan, and a Mongoloid type (2 skulls) which might have appeared during Ghaligai period III from Kashmir."
source: Elena Kuzmina: Origin of the Indo-Iranians

[TheForeigner]

Were"t the Aryan invaders of India already mixed with South-Central Asian Meds?

[Pahli]

Were"t the Aryan invaders of India already mixed with South-Central Asian Meds?

Yes they were.

[Hadouken]

Were"t the Aryan invaders of India already mixed with South-Central Asian Meds?

there are barely meds in southcentral asia . at least genetically

mediterranean genes become small anything east of (central) iran

[Pahli]

Not from the Mongoloids. The watershed of the Pamir and the Tarim basin was a contact zone between the Eastern Eurasian (Mongoloid) and the Central Eurasian (Europid) peoples. The slow and low level Europo-Mongoloidization of the Tarim basin and Pamir Iranians was not an ethnicized process, but a slow admixture only, legacy of ancient individual contacts.



Tipical ancient look Europo-Mongoloid Pamirid from Tajikistan:
https://i.img.ie/00N.jpg

Hovewer, the Pamirids were an interesting admixture of three race: local Mediterranids (preAryan BMAC population), Cromagnoid conquerors (Aryans) and this very unsignificant, but definitely existing little Mongoloid admixture.

The carriers of the Indo-Europan language were Cromagnoids mostly from Central Asia.

Pamirids have their ancestry dominantly from BMAC followed by around 1/3 (30 - 33%) Baltic admixture from the Aryan invasion and some 10% East Eurasian admixture.


there are barely meds in southcentral asia . at least genetically

mediterranean genes become small anything east of (central) iran

I think he got confused as Blogen mentioned Med as a phenotype wise ethnicity.

[War Chef]

That's a lot of West-Asian for a Volga-bend Scythian that far up north. I can't imagine how much more West-Asian Pontic-Caspian Scythians would be.

Notice how all the resident Polish & Russkie wanna-be Scythians of the forum are nowhere to be found on this thread. I say we should find where they are hiding and genocide them all, for years of stealing history.

[RN97]

West Eurasian Scytho-Sarmatians were around 10% Mongoloid and can be set up to be 2/3 Baltic and 1/3 Afghan Pashtun or 50% Baltic and 50% Tajik Pomiri (East Iranian minority). This sample is from Volga, 300 - 200 B.C.

.

Where do you find such results for different groups?

[Pahli]

That's a lot of West-Asian for a Volga-bend Scythian that far up north. I can't imagine how much more West-Asian Pontic-Caspian Scythians would be.

Notice how all the resident Polish & Russkie wanna-be Scythians of the forum are nowhere to be found on this thread. I say we should find where they are hiding and genocide them all, for years of stealing history.

Because the Scytho-Sarmatians unlike the Tatars didn't mix with the Volga Uralic population (even if they did it was in low numbers), otherwise they would have been fed with NE European admixture and the West Asian admixture and Mongoloid would have been reduced a lot.

[Pahli]

Where do you find such results for different groups?

I remember someone posted them, otherwise a simple google search will lead you to them:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6947-Ancient-dna-23-amp-me

And the Hungarian sample is named Hungary IR1:

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

[Danaan]

And they probably got their Iranian language from these people.

Not all those who we label Scythians spoke Iranian. Basically the actual evidence are non-existent. If someone disagrees I can discuss it.
And the term Sarmatians seems as if it was used for at least two unrelated peoples.

[TheForeigner]

That's a lot of West-Asian for a Volga-bend Scythian that far up north. I can't imagine how much more West-Asian Pontic-Caspian Scythians would be.

Notice how all the resident Polish & Russkie wanna-be Scythians of the forum are nowhere to be found on this thread. I say we should find where they are hiding and genocide them all, for years of stealing history.

Scytho-Sarmatians in Eastern Europe were assimilated by Slavs though. I believe the Iranic even became the ruling class of various Slav peoples, like Croats, Serbians or Poles.

[Pahli]

Not all those who we label Scythians spoke Iranian. Basically the actual evidence are non-existent. If someone disagrees I can discuss it.
And the term Sarmatians seems as if it was used for at least two unrelated peoples.

There's at least one or two "Scythian" ethnic groups that weren't of Iranian stock, one was Baltic another was Budini that were assumed to be a Finno-Ugric ethnic group. Generally speaking it has been accepted that they spoke an East Iranian language, at least the majority did, but we can't account for all the ethnicities roaming the Eurasian Steppes. There was also some accounts of Greek speaking Scythians in Ukraine.

[blogen]

Some genetic and racial data about the Scythian and Sarmatians:


Scythian mtDNA from the lower Don region:
http://s27.postimg.org/47hka69lv/scythian.jpg

Western Eurasian genes: 62,4% (12,4% H and H2a2, 12,4% I3, 18,9% T1a and T2, 6,3% U2a, 12,4% U5a)
Eastern Eurasian genes: 31,3% (6,3% A4, 6,3% C, 12,4% D4b1, 6,3% F1b)
Other: 6,3% (6,3% U7)

The nearly sample were the Tatar, Shungnan (http://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/14921/TI), Komi, Udmurt, Nogay and Pomor peoples:
http://s27.postimg.org/lm1sig6qr/map.jpg

What is not surprising. The Scythians were an steppic Europid (Protoeuropid Cromagnoid), North Siberian (Mongoloid, Uralid) and South Central Asian (Pamirid) mix.

sources: О.П. Балановский, Е.Ф. Батиева, C. Der Sarkisyan, В.В. Запорожченко, A. Cooper, Е.В. Балановская, W. Haak: АНАЛИЗ ДРЕВНЕЙ ДНК ИЗ СКИФСКИХ МОГИЛЬНИКОВ НИЖНЕГО ПОДОН ЬЯ В КОН ТЕКСТЕ СОВРЕМЕННО ГО И ДРЕВНЕГО НАСЕЛЕНИЯ ЕВРАЗИИ (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39757991/Antro/Southerns%20Regions%20Population.pdf)
and
Clio del Sarkissian: The Mitochondrial gene pool of Scythians of the Rostov area, Russia: A Melting Pot of Eurasian Influences (http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/74221/1/02whole.pdf)



Cephalic index of some Iranian population from the Eurasian steppe:

http://s27.postimg.org/n51s162oz/004269.jpg

3-1th century BC Scythians, Kamenka culture - Maslyakha, Altai krai:
men: 82
women: 80,2
all brachycephals
Racial type: Europo-Mongoloids, Protoeuropid (Cromagnoid) mixed with warious Mongoloid elements
source: М. П. Рыкун: МАТЕРИАЛЫ ПО КРАНИОЛОГИИ НАСЕЛЕНИЯ СЕВЕРНОГО АЛТАЯ РАННЕГО ЖЕЛЕЗНОГО ВЕКА (каменская культура) (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a2/2-ryk.pdf)

3-2th centuy BC Scythians, Kamenka culture - Upper Ob basin:
men: 79,8
women: 81,4
few mesocephals with mostly brachycephals
Racial type: Europo-Mongoloids, Protoeuropid mixed with warious Mongoloid elements
source: М. П. Рыкун: Краниологические материалы из могильника каменской культуры Новотроицкое-1 (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a4/2-ryk.pdf)

4-3th century BC, Sarmatians - Chemaya, Kardailovo, Orenburg oblast:
the reamins: 75,9, 83,9, 90,3, 83,4, 85,4, 85,5, 82,8, 84,1
average: 83,9
1 dolichocephal, 6 brachycephals, 1 extreme brachycephal
Racial type: almost Europid Europo-Mongoloids. (The brachycephals were Protoeuropid, but this is not from this study.)
source: А. Н. Багашев: МАТЕРИАЛЫ К КРАНИОЛОГИИ САРМАТОВ (http://www.ipdn.ru/rics/va/_private/a1/2-bag.pdf)

6-3th century Scythians - Lower Don region:
men: 81,4 (min: 71,5, max: 95,3)
women: 84,9 (min: 77, max: 95)
basically brachycephals with some mesocephal elements and few dolichocephal
Racial type: mostly clear Europids with some Europo-Mongoloids
source: Е.Ф. Батиева Население нижнего Дона (палеоантропологическое исследование) (http://ssc-ras.ru/files/files/Batieva%20mono1.pdf)

5th century BC Scythians - fortified settlement Semiluki, Voronezh Oblast
men: 86,7
women: 75,7
mainly brachycephal men and mesocephal women
Racial type: dominantly Europids with an Europo-Mongoloid component (~20%)
source: Ефимов К.Ю. Население Семилукского городища скифского времени (по антропологическим материалам) (http://www.history.vspu.ac.ru/files/2002.pdf)

Scythians - Cheremushne, Kharkov oblast
67,34 78,45 73,33
dolichocephalic, 2 mesocephalic
Racial types: Euroids, mixed clear Europid, maybe Balto-Scythian population, dominantly non Scythian origin elements from the forest zone, fundamentally differs from the European steppic samples.
source: Бондаренко В.Л., Буйнов Ю.В., Гречко Д.С. АНТРОПОЛОГИЧЕСКИЕ МАТЕРИАЛЫ ИЗ КУРГАНОВ СКИФСКОГО ПЕРИОДА У С.ЧЕРЕМУШНОЕ НА ХАРЬКОВЩИНЕ (http://www.archaeology.ru/Download/Bondarenko/Bondarenko_2007_Antropologicheskije.pdf)

[Danaan]

There's at least one or two "Scythian" ethnic groups that weren't of Iranian stock, one was Baltic another was Budini that were assumed to be a Finno-Ugric ethnic group.

I modern Greece which is 131,957 km2 big, 200 years ago at least 8 languages from 2 language families were spoken at least in small parts of the country (Greek, Turkish, Albanian, Aromanian, Italian, Bulgarian, Ladino, Romani), so I don't believe what many people have in their minds is possible.

I believe too that the Budini* were Uralic and I place them in the forest steppe, although people have claimed different things. The Gelonians who had settled among them spoke 'half Greek half Scythian'.

*The text says that the Budini were an ethnic group 'panu purron kai glaukon' (litteraly very red and blue/gray). So people assume that they had red hair and blue eyes, which is probably correct but the translation isn't as straightforward as it appears to those who read it. They were definitely lighter than the Gelonians and Greeks, otherwise Herodotus wouldn't mention it but they weren't necessarily Udmurt-like, although that's the first thing that came to my mind too.

In post-classical times the term was applied to practically everyone in the region.

Also, the Massagetae were a non-Scythian group. The Massagetae are identified later with the Alans. (That's complex too because other sources call the Huns Massagetae, because imo at that point Huns and Alans lived close to each other - and the origins of the Huns are complex too because a people with that name appears in the region earlier than they are supposed to have arrived).

[Pahli]

I modern Greece which is 131,957 km2 big, 200 years ago at least 8 languages from 2 language families were spoken at least in small parts of the country (Greek, Turkish, Albanian, Aromanian, Italian, Bulgarian, Ladino, Romani), so I don't believe what many people have in their minds is possible.

I believe too that the Budini* were Uralic and I place them in the forest steppe, although people have claimed different things. The Gelonians who had settled among them spoke 'half Greek half Scythian'.

*The text says that the Budini were an ethnic group 'panu purron kai glaukon' (litteraly very red and blue/gray). So people assume that they had red hair and blue eyes, which is probably correct but the translation isn't as straightforward as it appears to those who read it. They were definitely lighter than the Gelonians and Greeks, otherwise Herodotus wouldn't mention it but they weren't necessarily Udmurt-like, although that's the first thing that came to my mind too.

In post-classical times the term was applied to practically everyone in the region.

Also, the Massagetae were a non-Scythian group. The Massagetae are identified later with the Alans. (That's complex too because other sources call the Huns Massagetae, because imo at that point Huns and Alans lived close to each other - and the origins of the Huns are complex too because a people with that name appears in the region earlier than they are supposed to have arrived).

The Huns are also mentioned in the ancient Iranic collection of religious texts, the Avesta, those texts are almost 4000 years old. The Massagetae are believed to be a Sarmatian ethnic nomadic group though.

[Danaan]

The Huns are also mentioned in the ancient Iranic collection of religious texts, the Avesta, those texts are almost 4000 years old. The Massagetae are believed to be a Sarmatian ethnic nomadic group though.

Believed by whom? The thing is that they appear as a different ethnic group from Scythians in Herodotus. So, if for example the Massagetae are proved to be Iranic that doesn't mean that all 'Scythians' were.

[Pahli]

Believed by whom? The thing is that they appear as a different ethnic group from Scythians in Herodotus. So, if for example the Massagetae are proved to be Iranic that doesn't mean that all 'Scythians' were.

I am just saying they are mentioned, I didn't make a conclusion on their ethnicity.

[johen]

Regarding nomad people including PIE, I think culture was more important than genetics. It was a just routine job for nomad to steal women, being heterogeneous.
I never heard that nomad people cared about their ethnicity. Their phenotypes and genotypes could be related with the stealing act. Thus I think nomad identity should be found in their culture, b/c they always kept and cherished their culture.

sarmatian crown

http://web.archive.org/web/20160707193243im_/http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HttD63H2mf4/TCGh-I9EwXI/AAAAAAAACAs/T3FwzG_75Mo/s1600/220px-Sarmatian_crown.jpg

central asian shaman's
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg489/pihkiksen/ket/ketshaman_zps4a3b4c9a.jpg
https://www.cchere.com/article/4097753

sarmatian Kazakhstan, 1st century: see the hair mode from scythian to Hun and mongol/manchu
http://dostoyanieplaneti.ru/media/k2/galleries/4149/67576576.jpg
https://www.google.ca/search?q=sarmatian+kazakhstan&biw=1360&bih=638&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwid5dCYlZ_RAhUE4mMKHVmUDe4Q_AUIBigB#tbm= isch&q=royal+sarmatian+kazarstan+&imgdii=7NXmm-8IENr0nM%3A%3B7NXmm-8IENr0nM%3A%3B1UfxacXjUzKz_M%3A&imgrc=7NXmm-8IENr0nM%3A

"main race between the Sarmatians were the Protoeuropid, what was an robust Cromagnoid version from the Eurasian steppe.": still my question is what difference between Protoeuropoid and american Indian.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?135561-Pamirid-examples/page3

- scythian unique culture:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?191255-Pazyryk-Scythians-Y-Dna-N1b/page11 (post:103)

[Danaan]

Regarding nomad people including PIE, I think culture was more important than genetics. It was a just routine job to steal women, being heterogeneous.
I never heard that nomad people cared about their ethnicity. Their phenotypes were just changed by the stealing. Thus I think nomad identity should be found in their culture, b/c they always kept and cherished their culture.

sarmatian crown

http://web.archive.org/web/20160707193243im_/http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HttD63H2mf4/TCGh-I9EwXI/AAAAAAAACAs/T3FwzG_75Mo/s1600/220px-Sarmatian_crown.jpg



Where is the crown from? (I mean what culture, age etc)

[johen]

Where is the crown from? (I mean what culture, age etc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

[blogen]

Where is the crown from? (I mean what culture, age etc)

This crown is a typical work from a coastal city of the Bosporan kingdom. But the artist observed a Sarmatian tribal form, a shaman diadem presumably and that was the sample for this Roman artwork.

[johen]

Not all those who we label Scythians spoke Iranian. Basically the actual evidence are non-existent. If someone disagrees I can discuss it.
And the term Sarmatians seems as if it was used for at least two unrelated peoples.

They were speaking Iranian. Problem is where they came from. Scythians(R1a) were archaeologically Altai natives with unique american Indian(Q1a2) culture. And I am not sure, but Q1a2 in Altai area might speak in Indo-European also, b/c R1a and Q1a2 were always together in Altai area since neolithic.
Remnants of IE Tocharian was the Tarim Basin mummies, who had R1a-M198.
The R1a-M198 was observed in lake baikal 8ya.

So I think their R1a could not originate in West Eurasia.



Srubnaya Ethnicity
Russian archaeological traditions permit archaeologists to
discuss the linguistic affiliations of prehistoric populations
without much apology. Such a relaxed attitude toward
language identity and material culture perhaps is facilitated
by the steppe/forest ecological border that runs across
southern Russia, which was a persistent cultural and
linguistic border for millennia. Language and ecology
are easily seen as associated in this region because they
actually were associated historically at this persistent
economic-cultural-linguistic border. Most experts agree
that the languages spoken by the Scythians and Sarmatians
across the western steppes, north o f the Caspian and Black
Seas, were Iranian, specifically from the eastern Iranian
subgroup (“eastern” in relation to west Iranian within
Iran), judging from roots contained in personal names, god
names, and occasional other words noted by Greeks and
Persians after 500 BC, and from toponyms in the steppes,
as well as from archaeological remains that correlate with
rituals specified in later Persian texts (Kuzmina 2007;
Parpola 2002; Sims-Williams 2002). Continuity in skeletal
traits and artifact styles between the LBA and the Iron Age
suggests that the LBA (Srubnaya-Andronovo) population
was ancestral to the Scythian-Saka population, so almost
all Russian archaeologists accept that the languages of the
LBA steppes were an archaic form of Iranian, ancestral
to the Iranian languages spoken later in the same steppe
regions (Koryakova and Epimakhov 2007:150). Western
archaeologists tend to be dubious (Lamberg-Karlovsky
2002). The late MBA or MBA II Sintashta-Potapovka-
Filatovka chain of cultures (Figure 1.5) between the upper
Tobol River in the east (Sintashta) and the upper Don in
the west (Filatovka) was ancestral to the LBA Srubnaya-
Andronovo cultures, so is often interpreted as the material
residue of the common Indo-Iranian ancestral community.
Finno-Ugric, the prehistoric ancestor of the Uralic
languages spoken today in the forest zone north of the
Samara Valley, borrowed vocabulary from both common
Indo-Iranian and early Iranian (Koivulehto 2001), proving
that these ancient languages bordered each other, so the
forest-zone Volosovo and Garin-Bor cultures are often
assumed to represent Finno-Ugric speakers. The Indo-
Iranian ethnonym Arya/Ārya appeared as a loanword in
ancestral Finno-Ugric as *orya, denoting “slave” (Carpelan
and Parpola 2001:112), implying that Indo-Iranian Aryans
were captured and enslaved by people in the forest zone.
Arya/Ārya was a self-applied ethnonym of the composers
of the oldest hymns in Sanskrit (in the Rig Veda) and early
Iranian (in the Avesta), both compiled before 1000 BC, so
it probably was a self-applied ethnonym of the speakers
of common Indo-Iranian (Filatovka-Potapovka-Sintashta).
Finno-Ugric *orya, “slave,” therefore implies hostilities
between forest-zone Uralic and steppe-zone Indo-Iranian
speakers. But another loan into common Finno-Ugric
during the same period was common Indo-Iranian *asura,
“lord,” borrowed into Finno-Ugric as *asera, “lord”
or “prince,” implying alliance or integration between
Uralic speakers and Indo-Iranian chiefs, testifying to the
complexity of the relationships between Finno-Ugric
speakers and Indo-Iranian speakers. Finno-Ugric later
borrowed phonologically early Iranian terms for hundred,
bee, honey, tribe/troop, wheel, spindle, bridge, and boat
(Koivulehto 2001), probably during the Srubnaya period.

https://s12.postimg.org/sotpekpl9/Capture.png

[Azad Beg]

Iranics are too effeminate to be compared to Scythians.

[Pahli]

Iranics are too effeminate to be compared to Scythians.

An ugly mongrel talks shit again, good to know Turks are butthurt over Scythians being Iranic :(

[MercifulServant]

West Eurasian Scytho-Sarmatians were around 10% Mongoloid and can be set up to be 2/3 Baltic and 1/3 Afghan Pashtun or 50% Baltic and 50% Tajik Pomiri (East Iranian minority). This sample is from Volga, 300 - 200 B.C.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 39.61
2 West-Asian 24.65
3 Samoedic 10.51
4 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 9.26
5 Indo-Iranian 3.98
6 North-European-Mesolithic 2.64
7 East-Siberean 2.05
8 North-Amerind 1.96
9 Indian 1.64
10 Mesoamerican 1.22
11 North-Siberean 1.2
12 East-South-Asian 1.1
13 Arctic-Amerind 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tatar (derived) 14.69
2 Tartar_Mishar (derived) 18.21
3 Chuvash (derived) 18.74
4 Tatar_Lithuania (derived) 18.89
5 Tatar_Kryashen (derived) 19.42
6 Komi (derived) 21.51
7 Udmurd (derived) 23.06
8 Latvian_V (derived) 23.94
9 Nogai (derived) 24.33
10 Mari (derived) 24.78
11 Bashkir (derived) 24.88
12 Tatar_Crim (derived) 25
13 Gagauz (derived) 25.64
14 Bosnian (derived) 25.9
15 Aleut (derived) 25.91
16 Tadjik (derived) 26.25
17 Mordovian_V (derived) 26.54
18 Romania (derived) 26.58
19 Bulgarian (derived) 26.69
20 Mordovian (derived) 26.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.2% Komi (derived) + 39.8% Tabassaran (derived) @ 4.64
2 61.2% Komi (derived) + 38.8% Avar (derived) @ 4.75
3 61.5% Komi (derived) + 38.5% Lak (derived) @ 4.83
4 62.1% Komi (derived) + 37.9% Lezgin (derived) @ 4.97
5 64.7% Chuvash (derived) + 35.3% Avar (derived) @ 5.33
6 63.8% Chuvash (derived) + 36.2% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.49
7 62% Komi (derived) + 38% Chechen (derived) @ 5.67
8 65.1% Chuvash (derived) + 34.9% Lak (derived) @ 5.78
9 71% Tatar (derived) + 29% Avar (derived) @ 5.95
10 78.5% Komi (derived) + 21.5% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.1
11 65.8% Chuvash (derived) + 34.2% Lezgin (derived) @ 6.1
12 50.4% Tadjik (derived) + 49.6% Mordovian (derived) @ 6.12
13 80.4% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) + 19.6% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.17
14 85% Tatar (derived) + 15% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.27
15 64.1% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) + 35.9% Avar (derived) @ 6.3
16 63.5% Komi (derived) + 36.5% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 6.31
17 70.4% Tatar (derived) + 29.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 6.39
18 61.4% Komi (derived) + 38.6% Adygei (derived) @ 6.4
19 61.8% Komi (derived) + 38.2% Kabardinian (derived) @ 6.46
20 65.4% Komi (derived) + 34.6% Ossetian (derived) @ 6.49

This is believed to be Scythian in Eastern Hungary, around 900 - 800 B.C:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 40.96
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 26.72
3 West-Asian 18.72
4 Mesoamerican 3.64
5 Samoedic 3.57
6 North-Amerind 2.46
7 Indo-Iranian 1.54
8 North-European-Mesolithic 1.34
9 North-Siberean 0.89
10 Arctic-Amerind 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian (derived) 12.22
2 Macedonian (derived) 12.3
3 Romania (derived) 12.36
4 Bulgarian (derived) 12.6
5 Montenegrin (derived) 12.83
6 Gagauz (derived) 12.86
7 Bosnian (derived) 13.01
8 Hungarian (derived) 14.39
9 Croatian (derived) 14.51
10 German_V (derived) 15.06
11 Austrian (derived) 15.44
12 German-South (derived) 15.5
13 German (derived) 15.89
14 Slovenian (derived) 16.5
15 CEU_V (derived) 16.98
16 Swiss (derived) 17.71
17 CEU (derived) 17.82
18 Croatian_V (derived) 18.23
19 German-North (derived) 18.26
20 British (derived) 18.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.7% Austrian (derived) + 27.3% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.57
2 73.5% Austrian (derived) + 26.5% Lak (derived) @ 5.63
3 73.7% Austrian (derived) + 26.3% Avar (derived) @ 5.65
4 70.6% CEU_V (derived) + 29.4% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.79
5 73.4% German_V (derived) + 26.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.8
6 71.6% CEU_V (derived) + 28.4% Avar (derived) @ 5.81
7 69.7% German-North (derived) + 30.3% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.81
8 67.2% German-North (derived) + 32.8% Balkarian (derived) @ 5.82
9 73.8% Austrian (derived) + 26.2% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.84
10 70.6% German (derived) + 29.4% Balkarian (derived) @ 5.85
11 78% German (derived) + 22% Abhkasian (derived) @ 5.87
12 71.5% CEU_V (derived) + 28.5% Lak (derived) @ 5.88
13 74.2% German_V (derived) + 25.8% Lak (derived) @ 5.88
14 72.9% German (derived) + 27.1% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.89
15 74.4% German_V (derived) + 25.6% Avar (derived) @ 5.9
16 69% German-North (derived) + 31% Chechen (derived) @ 5.93
17 71.7% CEU_V (derived) + 28.3% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.96
18 74.3% German (derived) + 25.7% Ossetian (derived) @ 5.99
19 72.9% Austrian (derived) + 27.1% Chechen (derived) @ 6
20 74.5% German_V (derived) + 25.5% Lezgin (derived) @ 6.01

The difference between the two samples is the greatly reduced Anatolian farmer admixture in the Volga sample and slightly reduced West Asian admixture in the Hungarian one, otherwise they are pretty much similar in NE European and Mongoloid admixture.

What are the kit numbers of these?

[Pahli]

What are the kit numbers of these?

They were removed, there's only one Scythian and Sarmatian left;

Sarmatian: T238094
Scythian: M348213

I have calculator results of the others that were removed:

Sarmatian Pokrovka:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 53.65
2 West_Asia 25
3 SW_Europe 17.02
4 Americas 2.38
5 SE_Asia 1.1
6 South_Asia 0.65
7 West_Africa 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 16.93
2 Ukrainian 17.32
3 Russian 18.45
4 Belarusian 18.63
5 Slovak 18.73
6 Moldavian 19.37
7 Polish 19.57
8 German_North 20.09
9 Slovene 20.26
10 Tatar 20.81
11 Hungarian 21.04
12 Bosnian 21.37
13 Norwegian 21.43
14 Swedish 21.78
15 Estonian 21.93
16 Croatian 22.31
17 Lithuanian 22.54
18 Latvian 22.69
19 Scottish 22.73
20 Irish 22.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Latvian + 40.8% Chechen @ 7.28
2 59.4% Lithuanian + 40.6% Chechen @ 7.47
3 60.2% Estonian + 39.8% Chechen @ 7.98
4 63.8% Polish + 36.2% Chechen @ 8.85
5 63.6% Latvian + 36.4% Adygei @ 8.97
6 65.6% Russian + 34.4% Chechen @ 9.02
7 54.3% Finnish + 45.7% Chechen @ 9.16
8 63.8% Lithuanian + 36.2% Adygei @ 9.21
9 65.9% Latvian + 34.1% Dagestan_Azeri @ 9.29
10 66.1% Lithuanian + 33.9% Dagestan_Azeri @ 9.49
11 64.8% Estonian + 35.2% Adygei @ 9.75
12 66.2% Latvian + 33.8% Ossetian @ 9.82
13 68.8% Mordovian + 31.2% Chechen @ 9.82
14 62.9% Latvian + 37.1% Tadjik @ 10
15 61.8% Latvian + 38.2% Kumyk @ 10
16 67.1% Estonian + 32.9% Dagestan_Azeri @ 10.02
17 67.1% Lithuanian + 32.9% Afghan_Pashtun @ 10.02
18 63.1% Lithuanian + 36.9% Tadjik @ 10.03
19 66.5% Lithuanian + 33.5% Ossetian @ 10.04
20 67% Latvian + 33% Afghan_Pashtun @ 10.04

[MercifulServant]

They were removed, there's only one Scythian and Sarmatian left;

Sarmatian: T238094
Scythian: M348213

I have calculator results of the others that were removed:

Sarmatian Pokrovka:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 53.65
2 West_Asia 25
3 SW_Europe 17.02
4 Americas 2.38
5 SE_Asia 1.1
6 South_Asia 0.65
7 West_Africa 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 16.93
2 Ukrainian 17.32
3 Russian 18.45
4 Belarusian 18.63
5 Slovak 18.73
6 Moldavian 19.37
7 Polish 19.57
8 German_North 20.09
9 Slovene 20.26
10 Tatar 20.81
11 Hungarian 21.04
12 Bosnian 21.37
13 Norwegian 21.43
14 Swedish 21.78
15 Estonian 21.93
16 Croatian 22.31
17 Lithuanian 22.54
18 Latvian 22.69
19 Scottish 22.73
20 Irish 22.8

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Latvian + 40.8% Chechen @ 7.28
2 59.4% Lithuanian + 40.6% Chechen @ 7.47
3 60.2% Estonian + 39.8% Chechen @ 7.98
4 63.8% Polish + 36.2% Chechen @ 8.85
5 63.6% Latvian + 36.4% Adygei @ 8.97
6 65.6% Russian + 34.4% Chechen @ 9.02
7 54.3% Finnish + 45.7% Chechen @ 9.16
8 63.8% Lithuanian + 36.2% Adygei @ 9.21
9 65.9% Latvian + 34.1% Dagestan_Azeri @ 9.29
10 66.1% Lithuanian + 33.9% Dagestan_Azeri @ 9.49
11 64.8% Estonian + 35.2% Adygei @ 9.75
12 66.2% Latvian + 33.8% Ossetian @ 9.82
13 68.8% Mordovian + 31.2% Chechen @ 9.82
14 62.9% Latvian + 37.1% Tadjik @ 10
15 61.8% Latvian + 38.2% Kumyk @ 10
16 67.1% Estonian + 32.9% Dagestan_Azeri @ 10.02
17 67.1% Lithuanian + 32.9% Afghan_Pashtun @ 10.02
18 63.1% Lithuanian + 36.9% Tadjik @ 10.03
19 66.5% Lithuanian + 33.5% Ossetian @ 10.04
20 67% Latvian + 33% Afghan_Pashtun @ 10.04

They seem to be very different from eachother genetically this one has 53. Norther euro while the others had around 40.

[Pahli]

They seem to be very different from eachother genetically this one has 53. Norther euro while the others had around 40.

They were from a different region, possibly different time as well. Scythians and Sarmatians weren't completely homogeneous, some had a little Mongoloid admixture, others barely had any like this sample here. But they are otherwise similar.

[ovidiu]

West Eurasian Scytho-Sarmatians were around 10% Mongoloid and can be set up to be 2/3 Baltic and 1/3 Afghan Pashtun or 50% Baltic and 50% Tajik Pomiri (East Iranian minority). This sample is from Volga, 300 - 200 B.C.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 39.61
2 West-Asian 24.65
3 Samoedic 10.51
4 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 9.26
5 Indo-Iranian 3.98
6 North-European-Mesolithic 2.64
7 East-Siberean 2.05
8 North-Amerind 1.96
9 Indian 1.64
10 Mesoamerican 1.22
11 North-Siberean 1.2
12 East-South-Asian 1.1
13 Arctic-Amerind 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tatar (derived) 14.69
2 Tartar_Mishar (derived) 18.21
3 Chuvash (derived) 18.74
4 Tatar_Lithuania (derived) 18.89
5 Tatar_Kryashen (derived) 19.42
6 Komi (derived) 21.51
7 Udmurd (derived) 23.06
8 Latvian_V (derived) 23.94
9 Nogai (derived) 24.33
10 Mari (derived) 24.78
11 Bashkir (derived) 24.88
12 Tatar_Crim (derived) 25
13 Gagauz (derived) 25.64
14 Bosnian (derived) 25.9
15 Aleut (derived) 25.91
16 Tadjik (derived) 26.25
17 Mordovian_V (derived) 26.54
18 Romania (derived) 26.58
19 Bulgarian (derived) 26.69
20 Mordovian (derived) 26.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.2% Komi (derived) + 39.8% Tabassaran (derived) @ 4.64
2 61.2% Komi (derived) + 38.8% Avar (derived) @ 4.75
3 61.5% Komi (derived) + 38.5% Lak (derived) @ 4.83
4 62.1% Komi (derived) + 37.9% Lezgin (derived) @ 4.97
5 64.7% Chuvash (derived) + 35.3% Avar (derived) @ 5.33
6 63.8% Chuvash (derived) + 36.2% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.49
7 62% Komi (derived) + 38% Chechen (derived) @ 5.67
8 65.1% Chuvash (derived) + 34.9% Lak (derived) @ 5.78
9 71% Tatar (derived) + 29% Avar (derived) @ 5.95
10 78.5% Komi (derived) + 21.5% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.1
11 65.8% Chuvash (derived) + 34.2% Lezgin (derived) @ 6.1
12 50.4% Tadjik (derived) + 49.6% Mordovian (derived) @ 6.12
13 80.4% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) + 19.6% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.17
14 85% Tatar (derived) + 15% West-Asian (ancestral) @ 6.27
15 64.1% Tatar_Kryashen (derived) + 35.9% Avar (derived) @ 6.3
16 63.5% Komi (derived) + 36.5% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 6.31
17 70.4% Tatar (derived) + 29.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 6.39
18 61.4% Komi (derived) + 38.6% Adygei (derived) @ 6.4
19 61.8% Komi (derived) + 38.2% Kabardinian (derived) @ 6.46
20 65.4% Komi (derived) + 34.6% Ossetian (derived) @ 6.49

This is believed to be Scythian in Eastern Hungary, around 900 - 800 B.C:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North-East-European 40.96
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 26.72
3 West-Asian 18.72
4 Mesoamerican 3.64
5 Samoedic 3.57
6 North-Amerind 2.46
7 Indo-Iranian 1.54
8 North-European-Mesolithic 1.34
9 North-Siberean 0.89
10 Arctic-Amerind 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Serbian (derived) 12.22
2 Macedonian (derived) 12.3
3 Romania (derived) 12.36
4 Bulgarian (derived) 12.6
5 Montenegrin (derived) 12.83
6 Gagauz (derived) 12.86
7 Bosnian (derived) 13.01
8 Hungarian (derived) 14.39
9 Croatian (derived) 14.51
10 German_V (derived) 15.06
11 Austrian (derived) 15.44
12 German-South (derived) 15.5
13 German (derived) 15.89
14 Slovenian (derived) 16.5
15 CEU_V (derived) 16.98
16 Swiss (derived) 17.71
17 CEU (derived) 17.82
18 Croatian_V (derived) 18.23
19 German-North (derived) 18.26
20 British (derived) 18.42

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 72.7% Austrian (derived) + 27.3% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.57
2 73.5% Austrian (derived) + 26.5% Lak (derived) @ 5.63
3 73.7% Austrian (derived) + 26.3% Avar (derived) @ 5.65
4 70.6% CEU_V (derived) + 29.4% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.79
5 73.4% German_V (derived) + 26.6% Tabassaran (derived) @ 5.8
6 71.6% CEU_V (derived) + 28.4% Avar (derived) @ 5.81
7 69.7% German-North (derived) + 30.3% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.81
8 67.2% German-North (derived) + 32.8% Balkarian (derived) @ 5.82
9 73.8% Austrian (derived) + 26.2% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.84
10 70.6% German (derived) + 29.4% Balkarian (derived) @ 5.85
11 78% German (derived) + 22% Abhkasian (derived) @ 5.87
12 71.5% CEU_V (derived) + 28.5% Lak (derived) @ 5.88
13 74.2% German_V (derived) + 25.8% Lak (derived) @ 5.88
14 72.9% German (derived) + 27.1% NorthOssetian (derived) @ 5.89
15 74.4% German_V (derived) + 25.6% Avar (derived) @ 5.9
16 69% German-North (derived) + 31% Chechen (derived) @ 5.93
17 71.7% CEU_V (derived) + 28.3% Lezgin (derived) @ 5.96
18 74.3% German (derived) + 25.7% Ossetian (derived) @ 5.99
19 72.9% Austrian (derived) + 27.1% Chechen (derived) @ 6
20 74.5% German_V (derived) + 25.5% Lezgin (derived) @ 6.01

The difference between the two samples is the greatly reduced Anatolian farmer admixture in the Volga sample and slightly reduced West Asian admixture in the Hungarian one, otherwise they are pretty much similar in NE European and Mongoloid admixture.

Interesting. The first one only scores 3.98% Indo-Iranian and the second 1.54? What is Indo-Iranian supposed to actually represent as a marker on there then? I would think they would be highly representative. Maybe they're just not as connected to modern Indo-Iranians in Asia?

And as for the one in Eastern Hungary, I didn't know Scythians made it that far west that early in history. Sarmatian tribes did get there later. But the results for this one seems to indicate a closer affinity with native peoples in the region rather than other Indo-Iranians.

And the Mesoamerican there must be some weird noise that came up, or something that was misattributed, perhaps due to the ANI-Amerindian overlap.

[Leto]

They were removed, there's only one Scythian and Sarmatian left;

Sarmatian: T238094
Scythian: M348213

The two plus an Andronovo sample (Z370558) on the K15 map
https://preview.ibb.co/dr4evS/image.png (https://ibb.co/kKaV27)

[Token]

A two-way mix of Yamnaya and some unknown East Eurasian population in varying degrees depending on the location.