Catalonia leader vows 2017 referendum on Spain independence

[Loki]

Catalonia leader vows 2017 referendum on Spain independence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38477348)

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/1099E/production/_93189976_036921442-1.jpg

Spain's Catalonia region seems set on a new collision course with Madrid after a vow by its leader to hold an independence referendum in 2017.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont promised a "legal and binding" vote in his televised New Year's speech.

A consultative ballot in 2014, which recorded a large majority for independence, was ignored by Spain.

Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy has again ruled out the possibility of a referendum.

Embracing Spain's second city, Barcelona, Catalonia is one of the country's richest regions.

Separatist sentiment has built into a mass movement over the past five years, promoting a distinct Catalan identity which goes back centuries.

In his video address (in Catalan), Mr Puigdemont said: "We Catalans will freely decide our own future through a legal and binding referendum."

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/946E/production/_93189973_mediaitem93189970.jpg

Such a vote is expected to take place in September, based on a resolution passed by the Catalan parliament, where separatists hold a majority of seats.

Speaking on Friday, PM Rajoy said: "It is not possible to hold a referendum that will do away with national sovereignty and the equality of Spaniards.

"This is not going anywhere, I'm offering something which is a lot more reasonable - dialogue. I ask that no more steps are taken in the opposite direction."

Mr Rajoy and his conservative Popular Party recently won opposition support to rule as a minority government following an inconclusive general election in June.

Catalan officials involved in holding the outlawed 2014 ballot have since faced sanctions or trial.

[LieDetector]

interesting

[Lluna Plena]

The independence day will arrive soon....

Visca Catalunya!! ;)

[LieDetector]

Catalonia for Catalans

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

When the economy was doing fine talk of separation was a fringe movement. The economy tanks and suddenly it's 'lets have our own country' by a larger element of Catalan society as if that will solve their economic woes. I'd be supportive if there was consistency. More than a century ago there was a similar situation: Spain loses Cuba as a colony and as a consequence Catalan business monopoly on the Cuban sugar trade ends. The economy begins to tank and suddenly there is calls for independence. The economy improves when the rest of Europe goes off to fight in WW1. Talk of independence goes back to the fringe. It's a 'what have you done for me lately' political movement.

[Melki]

Catalonia for Catalans

And Indiana for Indians

[Mingle]

If Spain had held a referendum a few years ago when separatism wasn't as strong, then Catalonia would have voted no and this wouldn't be that big of an issue anymore. But now Catalan separatism is stronger than ever and they have a very realistic chance of independence. Although it will be interesting to see what will happen to separatist parties if Catalonia votes no.

A hypothetical independence may hurt Catalonia economically in terms of immediate consequences because they will have to make trade deals again and their progress will be hindered by Spain (and her allies), but in the long term they will recover.

[Melki]

If Spain had held a referendum a few years ago when separatism wasn't as strong, then Catalonia would have voted no and this wouldn't be that big of an issue anymore. But now Catalan separatism is stronger than ever and they have a very realistic chance of independence. Although it will be interesting to see what will happen to separatist parties if Catalonia votes no.

A hypothetical independence may hurt Catalonia economically in terms of immediate consequences because they will have to make trade deals again and their progress will be hindered by Spain (and her allies), but in the long term they will recover.

Separatism has been strong in Spain since the "People's Spring" of 1848, and particularly after Franco's death in 1975.
Now independentism it's stronger than ever in Catalonia because Spain is going through hard times because the economy is low and wealthy Catalonians are sick to pay for the poorest Spanish regions.

What I can't explain, though, is why the Basques (the Basque Country is the wealthiest region of Spain with Catalonia) are so quiet. Terrorism was a real bother 40-30-20 years ago. I grew up with the terrorism.
The Abertzale (patriots) have always been radical. It's obviously a good thing to live in peace, but the independence movement, even in a peaceful manner, is incredibly weak, now.

It should be the right moment for the Basques to fall into step with Catalonia.

[Mingle]

Separatism has been strong in Spain since the "People's Spring" of 1848, and particularly after Franco's death in 1975.
Now independentism it's stronger than ever in Catalonia because Spain is going through hard times because the economy is low and wealthy Catalonians are sick to pay for the poorest Spanish regions.

What I can't explain, though, is why the Basques (the Basque Country is the wealthiest region of Spain with Catalonia) are so quiet. Terrorism was a real bother 40-30-20 years ago. I grew up with the terrorism.
The Abertzale (patriots) have always been radical. It's obviously a good thing to live in peace, but the independence movement, even in a peaceful manner, is incredibly weak, now.

It should be the right moment for the Basques to fall into step with Catalonia.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/koldo-casla/why-does-basque-country-seem-so-quiet-about-independence-nowadays

[Melki]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/koldo-casla/why-does-basque-country-seem-so-quiet-about-independence-nowadays

I sstumbled on a similar article in Spanish. But the Basque Country is not only on the Spanish side; it doesn't explain why separatist movements are sleepy in Iparralde (the northern -French- side) too.

[Profileid]

lol who cares it's Spain

[Mingle]

I sstumbled on a similar article in Spanish. But the Basque Country is not only on the Spanish side; it doesn't explain why separatist movements are sleepy in Iparralde (the northern -French- side) too.

French Basques are much more assimilated because of France's Frenchification policies after the French Revolution.

Spain tried to do the same thing in Spain to the Basques, but they fought back in the Carlist Wars. The Carlists eventually lost, but the seeds of Basque nationalism were planted by then and they Basques continued fighting for their rights. It also helps that Basques were a greater percentage in Spain than in France. There were also other groups in Spain like the Catalans that wanted rights for their people. France's Basque region was just a few tiny rural sparsely populated unimportant towns whereas the Spanish Basque regions were much more significant.

[Melki]

French Basques are much more assimilated because of France's Frenchification policies after the French Revolution.

Spain tried to do the same thing in Spain to the Basques, but they fought back in the Carlist Wars. The Carlists eventually lost, but the seeds of Basque nationalism were planted by then and they Basques continued fighting for their rights. It also helps that Basques were a greater percentage in Spain than in France. There were also other groups in Spain like the Catalans that wanted rights for their people. France's Basque region was just a few tiny rural sparsely populated unimportant towns whereas the Spanish Basque regions were much more significant.

Wrong. The regional identity is very strong in France, stronger than ever. Ask Enflamme and Ilma, if you're not convinced.

[Lluna Plena]

lol who cares it's Spain

:confused:

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

French Basques are much more assimilated because of France's Frenchification policies after the French Revolution.

Spain tried to do the same thing in Spain to the Basques, but they fought back in the Carlist Wars. The Carlists eventually lost, but the seeds of Basque nationalism were planted by then and they Basques continued fighting for their rights. It also helps that Basques were a greater percentage in Spain than in France. There were also other groups in Spain like the Catalans that wanted rights for their people. France's Basque region was just a few tiny rural sparsely populated unimportant towns whereas the Spanish Basque regions were much more significant.

That's not the cause of the Carlist Wars. The Carlist Wars was an anti-liberal movement that had adherents in areas that were hyper traditional. Carlists fought on the side of Franco during the Spanish Civil War and when they no longer served a purpose he tried to stamp them out and was for the most part successful.

http://img.rutasconhistoria.es/1656_mapa_de_la_primera_guerra_carlista_1.jpg:firs t

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

I support the separatists movement

[Cristiano viejo]

lol who cares it's Spain

Apparently, you. You participate in every thread about Spain you see :thumb001:

[Desperado]

Good luck my Gs

[Melki]

lol who cares it's Spain

I wouldn't have expected any other response from a dim-witted cattle-smelling Murican. :rolleyes:

[Profileid]

I wouldn't have expected any other response from a dim-witted cattle-smelling Murican. :rolleyes:

well you're quite bigoted.

Interesting how you react to a joke of mine with such butthurt. Anybody with half a brain knows not to take me seriously at this point.
You are no different than gitano viejo.

[glass]

The more fractured Europe, the more it needs "protection" of big brother. All those separatist movements are anti-white and anti-european, because they are indirectly selling people into slavery to big (libtarded) brother in either Brussels or Washington.

[Dandelion]

Just reduce Catalanophobic attitudes and reduce tensions. Seperatists will fall flat on their faces.

Not sure how attitudes are now, but I remember Spanish nationalists insulting Catalans and thinking they are being patriotic and unionist that way.

[Melki]

well you're quite bigoted.

Interesting how you react to a joke of mine with such butthurt. Anybody with half a brain knows not to take me seriously at this point.
You are no different than gitano viejo.

Sorry, but a joke is supposed to be funny (it wouldn't be a joke otherwise). I don't see the wit in your comment...

[Profileid]

Sorry, but a joke is supposed to be funny (it wouldn't be a joke otherwise). I don't see the wit in your comment...

Of course you don't you asshurt nigger.

[Melki]

Of course you don't you asshurt nigger.

It's maybe because there's no wit? Because a sperm whale like you doesn't know what "wit" means?,:rolleyes:

[Profileid]

It's maybe because there's no wit? Because a sperm whale like you doesn't know what "wit" means?,:rolleyes:

I know enough to make your ass bleed.

[Melki]

I know enough to make your ass bleed.

Chimping out and thumbing down is all you can do. I shall prepare my harpoon for thee; ye damned whale !!!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ua8im42FrEU/hqdefault.jpg

[Al-Meksiki]

Any day now, gaiz, were super cereal this time

[Profileid]

Chimping out and thumbing down is all you can do. I shall prepare my harpoon for thee; ye damned whale !!!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ua8im42FrEU/hqdefault.jpg

Interesting accusation.From a flamboyant little man like you.

[Dandelion]

Any day now, gaiz, were super cereal this time

They love Latinoamericanos in Catalonia because they're known for learning Catalan and not expect to get accomodated in Castillian. Ironically, actually, you totally would for you love languages.

[Al-Meksiki]

They love Latinoamericanos in Catalonia because they're known for learning Catalan and not expect to get accomodated in Castillian. Ironically, actually, you totally would for you love languages.

Jo estimo la català, i jo sé una mica :D Ell és com un barreja de francès i castellà

Never been to Catalonia unfortunately

[Melki]

Interesting accusation.From a flamboyant little man like you.

Show me your crooked jaw, show me your wrinkled brow. Rise!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLTlfljynV4

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

This referendum will have an huge impact and repercussion in the whole Peninsula. I am neutral in this matter.

[Tietar]

Another irrelevant referendum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014

They risk making a fool of themselves by "winning" a referendum that does not reach 35% of participation.

And of course those responsible will have to respond again to the courts.

[Cristiano viejo]

The more fractured Europe, the more it needs "protection" of big brother. All those separatist movements are anti-white and anti-european, because they are indirectly selling people into slavery to big (libtarded) brother in either Brussels or Washington.
Catalan (and Basque but specially the Catalan) separatist movement is 100% anti-white, mainly (obviously) the left side of this movement. They are promoting immigration in Catalonia and use these immigrants for this. Look

http://diario16.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/volem.jpg

http://iberosphere.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/catalan-inmigrante.jpg

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/moras-sparatas.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RIZFv0t.jpg

They are offically called els Nous Catalans (the new Catalans) by the separatist movement, they are receiving tons of subsidies and constantly you can see these Catalan politicians in public events with them (this politician is the Catalonian ex-president, from a right wing party, Artur Mas)

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/nous11.jpg

Here some Catalan politicians from the left wing with els nous Catalans :rolleyes:

https://dolcacatalunya.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/captura-de-pantalla-2015-04-20-a-las-23-31-46.png


Just reduce Catalanophobic attitudes and reduce tensions. Seperatists will fall flat on their faces.

Not sure how attitudes are now, but I remember Spanish nationalists insulting Catalans and thinking they are being patriotic and unionist that way.
Spanish nationalists (among who I include myself) insult Catalan separatists, not Catalan people per se.

Catalanophobia is the reciprocal feeling of Castellanophobia. Saying that reducing Catalanophobia will reduce tensions is absolutely not true. The problem, the tensions start in Catalonia, not the opposite.




They love Latinoamericanos in Catalonia because they're known for learning Catalan and not expect to get accomodated in Castillian. Ironically, actually, you totally would for you love languages.
Wrong, Latinos are famous for not learning Catalan. And not only Latinos. But specially they.


This referendum will have an huge impact and repercussion in the whole Peninsula. I am neutral in this matter.

There will not be any referendum, believe me.

[Dandelion]

Wrong, Latinos are famous for not learning Catalan. And not only Latinos. But specially they.


Exactly my point. I employed sarcasm. But Meki is an exception.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Catalan (and Basque but specially the Catalan) separatist movement is 100% anti-white, mainly (obviously) the left side of this movement. They are promoting immigration in Catalonia and use these immigrants for this.
There will not be any referendum, believe me.

It's not really surprising, their separatist movements have always been connected with leftist agendas. They once tried to do the referendum but it was considered unconstitutional.

[Cristiano viejo]

It's not really surprising, their separatist movements have always been connected with leftist agendas. They once tried to do the referendum but it was considered unconstitutional.
That was a joke, with many people voting several times, underage voters etc

[Ibericus]

They love Latinoamericanos in Catalonia because they're known for learning Catalan and not expect to get accomodated in Castillian. Ironically, actually, you totally would for you love languages.
Non-whites rarely speak in catalan, which is the irony of the catalanist movement, they want to preserve Catalan identity, but do everything possible to destroy it, like being favorable to massive immigration.

[caviezel]

visca Catalunya, charnegos fora!

[Loki]

But tell me, why does Spain want to hold on to Catalunya, if the people want to secede? Is it a mineral-rich part of the country?

[alnortedelsur]

The independence day will arrive soon....

Visca Catalunya!! ;)

It will never happen. Keep dreaming.

[alnortedelsur]

Catalonia for Catalans

ALL Spain for Spaniards, including Catalonia, which is part of Spain, no matter how hard, unpatriotic traitors like the shameless Catalan politicians,-who want to manage the Catalonia's wealth for themselves-, and their stupid brainwashed followers, kick and cry about it.

[Loki]

ALL Spain for Spaniards, including Catalonia, which is part of Spain

Do you consider Catalan people to be ethnic Spaniards?

[alnortedelsur]

lol who cares it's Spain

You keep eating your hamburgers, and let this discussion to intelligent and literate people, ignorant and fat Walmart girl.

[LieDetector]

ALL Spain for Spaniards, including Catalonia, which is part of Spain, no matter how hard, unpatriotic traitors like the shameless Catalan politicians,-who want to manage the Catalonia's wealth for themselves-, and their stupid brainwashed followers, kick and cry about it.

why are you as a Latino getting all wound up about this? :confused:

[alnortedelsur]

I support the separatists movement

That's not your business. Spain is not your country.

[alnortedelsur]

Do you consider Catalan people to be ethnic Spaniards?

Of course they're. And Catalan is a Latin language, a sister language from Castilian Spanish.

However, most Catalans, nowadays, speak more Castilian-Spanish than Catalan, which has been falling in progressive disuse, until some Catalan politicians, with their agenda to manage Catalonian wealth for themselves, have made everything to artificially promote it, with unacceptable discriminatory laws against Castilian Spanish, because they want to use the language (a regional language spoken by less and less people as years pass, but that is artificially promoted by them) as an argument to separate Catalonia from Spain.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

But tell me, why does Spain want to hold on to Catalunya, if the people want to secede? Is it a mineral-rich part of the country?

Not really but Catalonia is a critical contributor to Spain's economy. Basically the region is one of the wealthiest in Spain. Just for you to have an idea, Catalonia represents 20% of the total GDP of Spain, in comparison Scotland only represents 8% of the total GDP of the U.K.

[alnortedelsur]

why are you as a Latino getting all wound up about this? :confused:

You're not talking with a stereotypical brown Latino, lol.

My mom is a full Spaniard from Spain, and I lived in Spain, where I became Spanish citizen.

I don't want the country of my mom (and from where most of my background is from) to be disintegrated for the petty interests of some selfish regionalist politicians. And I don't want it to invaded and destroyed by scummy immigration either.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Do you consider Catalan people to be ethnic Spaniards?

It's complicated. Best example that I can give you is the United Kingdom. Imagine England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They are all ethnically British to some extent. It is the same with Spain, they are all Iberians but each region has their own thing going on: costumes, traditions and language differ from each region (but they do not differ drastically, just like in the U.K.). The only region that really has a completely different language is the Basque Country, but their traditions and costumes are also very similar to those among other Iberians.

[alnortedelsur]

Do you consider Catalan people to be ethnic Spaniards?

Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Balearics, etc, are as much close genetically, phenotype wise, historically, and culturally, to other Spaniards, as Irish, Scots or Welsh are close to English (or probably even more). That's enough reason to keep them united as part of the same great nation, and to be against their separatism.

[caviezel]

Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Balearics, etc, are as much close genetically, phenotype wise, historically, and culturally, to other Spaniards, as Irish, Scots or Welsh are close to English (or probably even more). That's enough reason to keep them united as part of the same great nation, and to be against their separatism.not so much the Basques.

[alnortedelsur]

not so much the Basques.

Basques and the rest of Spaniards have been related to each other for many centuries (including the fact that the Basque country has been populated by non-Basque Spaniards for centuries, and Basques have been settling in the rest of Spain and mixing with non-Basque Spaniards for centuries). And the Basque language is not more than a remain of a family of Basque-like pre-roman languages that were spoken in great part of the Iberian peninsula.

Basques and non-Basque Spaniards are very very tied to each other, in all aspects.

[caviezel]

Basques and the rest of Spaniards have been related to each other for many centuries (including the fact that the Basque country has been populated by non-Basque Spaniards for centuries, and Basques have been settling in the rest of Spain and mixing with non-Basque Spaniards for centuries). And the Basque language is not more than a remain of a family of Basque-like pre-roman languages that were spoken in great part of the Iberian peninsula.

Basques and non-Basque Spaniards are very very tied to each other, in all aspects.
you can say the same things for english, other british and irish with the notable difference that they are more closely related genetically than basques and spaniards.

[alnortedelsur]

you can say the same things for english, other british and irish with the notable difference that they are more closely related genetically than basques and spaniards.

I don't know much about genetics, but as long as I know, I have seen that even though they have their own cluster, their cluster is very close to the Iberian cluster, and Spaniards (aside of southwestern French) are the closest human group to Basques.

Basques are genetically, no more than Iberians who happen to lack, or have less foreign residual mixtures that are more present in non-Basque Iberians, like if they are like more "pure Iberian" than other Iberians. That's it.

Other than that, the phenotype overlap between Basques and non-Basque Iberians (including Portuguese) is huge, up to the point that a great majority of non-Basque Iberians, and a great majority of ethnic Basques are interchangeable with each other, and would easily pass anywhere in the Iberian peninsula (including Basque country, in the case of non-Basque Iberians).

[Iltirbas]

It's not really surprising, their separatist movements have always been connected with leftist agendas. They once tried to do the referendum but it was considered unconstitutional.

Indeed, Sabino Arana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana) was a Marxist-Leninist ;).

[Profileid]

why are you as a Latino getting all wound up about this? :confused:

It's like with valen.
they have a doglike allegiance to this shit country

[Melki]

Basques and the rest of Spaniards have been related to each other for many centuries (including the fact that the Basque country has been populated by non-Basque Spaniards for centuries, and Basques have been settling in the rest of Spain and mixing with non-Basque Spaniards for centuries). And the Basque language is not more than a remain of a family of Basque-like pre-roman languages that were spoken in great part of the Iberian peninsula.

Basques and non-Basque Spaniards are very very tied to each other, in all aspects.

Basques and Catalans live in France too, knucklehead. Stop saying they are Spanish.

[alnortedelsur]

Basques and Catalans live in France too, knucklehead. Stop saying they are Spanish.

The French parts of Basque Country and Catalonia are ridiculously small compared to their Spanish counterparts, anarchist-liberal moron. And yes, they're also Iberians (not Spanish, but Iberians on French territory).

And Spaniards don't care about the small French fraction of those two regions. The only important thing is that Spanish-Catalonians are Spanish and Spanish-Basques are Spanish, for ever and ever.

[Melki]

The French parts of Basque Country and Catalonia are ridiculously small compared to their Spanish counterparts, anarchist-liberal moron. And yes, they're also Iberians (not Spanish, but Iberians on French territory).

And Spaniards don't care about the small French fraction of those two regions. The only important thing is that Spanish-Catalonians are Spanish and Spanish-Basques are Spanish, for ever and ever.

The french part of the Basque country represents 3 out of the 7 historical Basque provinces, and counts nearly 300 000 inhabitants (400 000 in French Northern Catalonia). Enough people who would be happy to send you to the hospital if you tell them they are Spanish.

Anyway, Basque men are reputed to be heavily-built. One Basque man is enough to send a wimpy and effeminate Venezuelan panda-boy like you to the hospital.

[alnortedelsur]

The french part of the Basque country represents 3 out of the 7 historical Basque provinces, and counts nearly 300 000 inhabitants (400 000 in French Northern Catalonia). Enough people who would be happy to send you to the hospital if you tell them they are Spanish.

Anyway, Basque men are reputed to be heavily-built. One Basque man is enough to send a wimpy and effeminate Venezuelan panda-boy like you to the hospital.

I didn't say they're Spanish, stupid liberal piece of crap, but they are Iberian brothers (or maybe not that much, because they are very mixed with French from other regions, IDK). And we are not talking here about the French parts of Basque Country and Catalonia, moron.

I just said that Spanish-Catalans (Spanish Catalans not French Catalans, imbecile) are Spanish and Spanish-Basques are Spanish, and always will be Spanish, like it or not.

[Melki]

I didn't say they're Spanish, stupid liberal piece of crap, but they are Iberian brothers (or maybe not that much, because they are very mixed with French from other regions, IDK). And we are not talking here about the French parts of Basque Country and Catalonia, moron.

I just said that Spanish-Catalans (Spanish Catalans not French Catalans, imbecile) are Spanish and Spanish-Basques are Spanish, and always will be Spanish, like it or not.

Unless they become independent, what is likely to happen, knucklehead.

[alnortedelsur]

Unless they become independent, what is likely to happen, knucklehead.

It won't happen. I know that's the dream of anti-nationalists anarchist liberals like you, who masturbate with the idea of country like Spain getting disintegrated. But it won't happen neither in this life nor in the after life. Keep dreaming.

[Melki]

It won't happen. I know that's the dream of anti-nationalists anarchist liberals like you, who masturbate with the idea of country like Spain getting disintegrated. But it won't happen neither in this life nor in the after life. Keep dreaming.

You, you will get a lot of friends if you visit Catalonia and Euskadi.
Catalonia's independence is likely to happen in your lifetime. And if this happen, Euskadi will maybe follow.
Let's see how the new king works, if he's appreciated by his subjects. Otherwise, he'll soon have to abdicate and the new colors of the Spanish flag will be red, gold and purple.

[Tietar]

But tell me, why does Spain want to hold on to Catalunya, if the people want to secede? Is it a mineral-rich part of the country?

Because the people who want to separate are less than half, the last survey of the Catalan opinion center: 45.3 yes, 46.8% no.

For the anti-Spanish who are creating illusions, I can assure them that in their life they will not see an independent Catalonia.

End of thread

[Tietar]

By the way, for the Basque country the situation is even worse for these assholes who are never going to see Spain divided.

According to a survey of the Basque Country's university regarding independence.

Yes 31%
No 39%
Abstention 12%
Not pronounced (Afraid to say "no" in public?) 18%

But even being a majority, no one could decide the rupture because it is written in the constitution. Spain is indivisible and its sovereignty resides in the Spanish people. Not even a traitorous government would have the power to call an exclusive referendum in Catalonia.

To change the constitution is necessary 2/3 of the parliament, and then be submitted to referendum in Spain.

[Melki]

Because the people who want to separate are less than half, the last survey of the Catalan opinion center: 45.3 yes, 46.8% no.

For the anti-Spanish who are creating illusions, I can assure them that in their life they will not see an independent Catalonia.

End of thread

End of the thread, but not end of the story. The amount of Catalans wanting independence is getting higher every year. Sooner or later, Spain will have to organize a referendum for self-determination, or incur the risk of causing a new civil war.

There are more differences between the Castillans and the Catalans than between the Castillans and the Portuguese. Yet, Portugal a sovereign nation. According to alestedeloeste's woolly logic, Portugal should be part of the Spanish crown because it's a country of Ibero-Romance heritage. And what about the Basques, thenn ? :rolleyes:

Spain is a new Yugoslavia, ready to implode.

[Melki]

By the way, for the Basque country the situation is even worse for these assholes who are never going to see Spain divided.

According to a survey of the Basque Country's university regarding independence.

Yes 31%
No 39%
Abstention 12%
Not pronounced (Afraid to say "no" in public?) 18%

But even being a majority, no one could decide the rupture because it is written in the constitution. Spain is indivisible and its sovereignty resides in the Spanish people. Not even a traitorous government would have the power to call an exclusive referendum in Catalonia.

To change the constitution is necessary 2/3 of the parliament, and then be submitted to referendum in Spain.

:picard1:

Constitutions are made to be abrogated, dumbass.

[Tietar]

The war is already brewing :D

OAG has named Barcelona to Madrid as the world”s busiest route by total flight arrivals and departures.

https://buyingbusinesstravel.com/news/189636-barcelona-madrid-worlds-busiest-route

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Indeed, Sabino Arana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana) was a Marxist-Leninist ;).

He wasn't but ETA clearly was a leftist guerrilla.

[Melki]

He wasn't but ETA clearly was a leftist guerrilla.

Sabino Arana Gori was not a Leftist at all. He would have been very happy to be in this forum. He would have agreed on everything with CV and Ibericus, except for the unity of Spain.

Nevertheless, the true Leftitst was Augustin Chaho: a French Basque, one of the first pioneers of the abertzale independentist movement...a Republican, Socialist and in favor of secularism. He advocated an independent Basque Country within a federated Europe of peoples.
No need to tell I would have liked this guy.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Sabino Arana Gori was not a Leftist at all. He would have been very happy to be in this forum. He would have agreed on everything with CV and Ibericus, except for the unity of Spain.

Nevertheless, the true Leftitst was Augustin Chaho: a French Basque, one of the first pioneers of the abertzale independentist movement...a Republican, Socialist and in favor of secularism. He advocated an independent Basque Country within a federated Europe of peoples.
No need to tell I would have liked this guy.

That's what I said, "he wasn't" leftist. Nevertheless most prominent separatist movements in the Basque Country are usually ideologicaly far-left.

[Melki]

That's what I said, "he wasn't" leftist. Nevertheless most prominent separatist movements in the Basque Country are usually ideologicaly far-left.

That's true. And people ceased to support ETA soon after Franco's death. Their fight was justified under Franco (although violence is never a solution, in my opinion), but in the 80's, everybody grew sick of their reign of terror. ETA outshone the more peaceful Leftist abertzale movements which rejected these kind of extreme actions.

[Cristiano viejo]

But tell me, why does Spain want to hold on to Catalunya, if the people want to secede? Is it a mineral-rich part of the country?
That is the quiz of the question: PEOPLE DONT WANT TO SECEDE!! How many times have we to say it??


visca Catalunya, charnegos fora!
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masacre_de_los_genoveses


Not really but Catalonia is a critical contributor to Spain's economy. Basically the region is one of the wealthiest in Spain. Just for you to have an idea, Catalonia represents 20% of the total GDP of Spain, in comparison Scotland only represents 8% of the total GDP of the U.K.
Catalonia is the most indebted Spanish region and every year they ask for money to Madrid. Seven billions of euros the last November
http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2016/11/29/583d53c2468aeb3b568b4655.html

and then look what they do with the money (from today): the Catalan government (separatist) will give a financial benefit of 400 euros during one year to refugees
La Generalitat impulsa una prestación económica de 400 euros durante un año para los refugiados
http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/abci-generalitat-impulsa-prestacion-economica-400-euros-durante-para-refugiados-201701241643_noticia.html


It's complicated. Best example that I can give you is the United Kingdom. Imagine England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They are all ethnically British to some extent. It is the same with Spain, they are all Iberians but each region has their own thing going on: costumes, traditions and language differ from each region (but they do not differ drastically, just like in the U.K.). The only region that really has a completely different language is the Basque Country, but their traditions and costumes are also very similar to those among other Iberians.
Most of Basques are not able to speak Basque language and 100% of them use Castilian as everyday language. This is an undeniable fact.

The language excuse to try to differenciate Basques or Catalans is a laughable excuse. Are people of Miranda non-Portuguese for the same reason?



It's like with valen.
they have a doglike allegiance to this shit country
Still worse loving shithole Syria and other Muslim countries like you do.


Basques and Catalans live in France too, knucklehead. Stop saying they are Spanish.
You being Peruvian claim be French, poor devil.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Catalonia is the most indebted Spanish region and every year they ask for money to Madrid. Seven billions of euros the last November
http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2016/11/29/583d53c2468aeb3b568b4655.html


Most of Basques are not able to speak Basque language and 100% of them use Castilian as everyday language. This is an undeniable fact.

The language excuse to try to differenciate Basques or Catalans is a laughable excuse. Are people of Miranda non-Portuguese for the same reason?


The fight for Catalan independence comes down to cash money most of the time. Usually they say exactly the opposite of what you're saying, that they are wealthier than other regions and that they don't want to send more money to Madrid. I guess each region claims what suits their own agenda.

Real Basques speak Basque language. During Franco's regime a lot of Castilians were relocated there to try to make it "more" Castilian. Some families might have stopped teaching the language. Nowadays native speakers of Basque language are increasingly becoming a minority in their own nation (which is terrible in my opinion), just like in Galiza. Sure, they know how to speak Castilian, it's the standard language in Spain, everybody knows how to speak it (maybe some really old people from certain regions don't, but that's all).

[Cristiano viejo]

But tell me, why does Spain want to hold on to Catalunya, if the people want to secede? Is it a mineral-rich part of the country?


visca Catalunya, charnegos fora!


Not really but Catalonia is a critical contributor to Spain's economy. Basically the region is one of the wealthiest in Spain. Just for you to have an idea, Catalonia represents 20% of the total GDP of Spain, in comparison Scotland only represents 8% of the total GDP of the U.K.


It's complicated. Best example that I can give you is the United Kingdom. Imagine England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They are all ethnically British to some extent. It is the same with Spain, they are all Iberians but each region has their own thing going on: costumes, traditions and language differ from each region (but they do not differ drastically, just like in the U.K.). The only region that really has a completely different language is the Basque Country, but their traditions and costumes are also very similar to those among other Iberians.


It's like with valen.
they have a doglike allegiance to this shit country


Basques and Catalans live in France too, knucklehead. Stop saying they are Spanish.


The fight for Catalan independence comes down to cash money most of the time. Usually they say exactly the opposite of what you're saying, that they are wealthier than other regions and that they don't want to send more money to Madrid. I guess each region claims what suits their own agenda.

Real Basques speak Basque language. During Franco's regime a lot of Castilians were relocated there to try to make it "more" Castilian. Some families might have stopped teaching the language. Nowadays native speakers of Basque language are increasingly becoming a minority in their own nation (which is terrible in my opinion), just like in Galiza. Sure, they know how to speak Castilian, it's the standard language in Spain, everybody knows how to speak it (maybe some really old people from certain regions don't, but that's all).

I sttoped to read your post after this. It was enough. :picard1:
I can not discuss with people who ignore absolutely the Spanish parorama.
Adeu.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

I sttoped to read your post after this. It was enough. :picard1:
I can not discuss with people who ignore absolutely the Spanish parorama.
Adeu.

You get what I mean. Of course Basque descents who didn't learn Basque language are still Basque, but the ones who usually are pro-Euskal Herria Independentzia know how to speak Basque language.

[Cristiano viejo]

You get what I mean. Of course Basque descents who didn't learn Basque language are still Basque, but the ones who usually are pro-Euskal Herria Independentzia know how to speak Basque language.

No, they are not. They are not able to speak Basque language properly, they know some basic words and phrases which even I know too. in their daily lives they use the Castilian language. FACT. Dont try to discuss this with me bcs I know it better than you and this is not even debatable.

No comment that a lot of pro-separatist Basques are from non-Basque origin, or they are mixed. The most famous killer of ETA, Ignacio de Juana Chaos, is 0% Basque by blood, his father was a soldier from Burgos who fought for Franco in the Civil War and his mother born in Tetuán when it belongs to Spain, descendant of soldiers too :rolleyes:

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

No, they are not. They are not able to speak Basque language properly, they know some basic words and phrases which even I know too. in their daily lives they use the Castilian language. FACT. Dont try to discuss this with me bcs I know it better than you and this is not even debatable.

No comment that a lot of pro-separatist Basques are from non-Basque origin, or they are mixed. The most famous killer of ETA, Ignacio de Juana Chaos, is 0% Basque by blood, his father was a soldier from Burgos who fought for Franco in the Civil War and his mother born in Tetuán when it belongs to Spain, descendant of soldiers too :rolleyes:

Muitos sabem falar, as estimativas dizem que existem cerca de 1 milhão de falantes da língua Basca, em algum lado eles haverão de estar, hahaha. Eu sei que eles falam Castelhano no seu dia a dia maioritariamente, só na Catalunha é que o Catalão é mais usado que o Castelhano.

[Cristiano viejo]

Muitos sabem falar, as estimativas dizem que existem cerca de 1 milhão de falantes da língua Basca, em algum lado eles haverão de estar, hahaha. Eu sei que eles falam Castelhano no seu dia a dia maioritariamente, só na Catalunha é que o Catalão é mais usado que o Castelhano.

Muchos saben chapurrearlo, no hablarlo correctamente, y mucho menos hablarlo cotidianamente como su primera lengua. Si no me crees pregunta al resto de foreros españoles.
Respecto a Cataluña, allí es totalmente diferente. Exceptuando algunos inmigrantes andaluces de avanzada edad (e inmigrantes de fuera de España, por supuesto), todo el mundo sabe hablar catalán. Pero dudo mucho que se use más que el castellano. El usuario italiano Peyrol constató este hecho cuando visitó Barcelona; él creía que todo el mundo hablaría en catalán y se llevó una gran sorpresa cuando vio que todo el mundo hablaba en castellano.

[Dandelion]

Barcelona is Castillian-speaking though. The rest of Catalonia is Catalanophone.

[Cristiano viejo]

Barcelona is Castillian-speaking though. The rest of Catalonia is Catalanophone.

Not only Barcelona. Tarragona is Castilian-speaking too, and many of the touristic places in the coast too.

[Dandelion]

Not only Barcelona. Tarragona is Castilian-speaking too, and many of the touristic places in the coast too.

Salou, a.k.a. the concrete Sodom and Gomorrah is Catalan-speaking, right?

[Cristiano viejo]

Salou, a.k.a. the concrete Sodom and Gomorrah is Catalan-speaking, right?

Yes, indeed, I was going to post Salou in my previous post but who cares...

[Ibericus]

You get what I mean. Of course Basque descents who didn't learn Basque language are still Basque, but the ones who usually are pro-Euskal Herria Independentzia know how to speak Basque language.
What many people don't know is that Basque language is in fact made of different dialects, and many of them are very different from each other, to the point there's more difference between these dialects than between spanish and portuguese, they are just considered all Basque because they come from the same proto-Basque family, like saying "romance languages".

It's basque nationalism that has created a fake basque identity which is not based on reality.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Muchos saben chapurrearlo, no hablarlo correctamente, y mucho menos hablarlo cotidianamente como su primera lengua. Si no me crees pregunta al resto de foreros españoles.
Respecto a Cataluña, allí es totalmente diferente. Exceptuando algunos inmigrantes andaluces de avanzada edad (e inmigrantes de fuera de España, por supuesto), todo el mundo sabe hablar catalán. Pero dudo mucho que se use más que el castellano. El usuario italiano Peyrol constató este hecho cuando visitó Barcelona; él creía que todo el mundo hablaría en catalán y se llevó una gran sorpresa cuando vio que todo el mundo hablaba en castellano.

Eu sei que no país Basco a língua Basca não é usada no quotidiano. Pelo menos nas grandes cidades e centros urbanos, se estivermos a falar de pequenas aldeias e vilas principalmente nas montanhas mais recônditas vais encontrar muitos falantes nativos.
Eu já tive na Catalunha e é um misto de ambas as línguas, podes encontrar pessoas a falar na rua ambas. E tal como disseste, quase toda a gente sabe falar Catalão. Comigo falavam em Castelhano mas simplesmente porque eu sou Português. Na Catalunha têm conseguido preservar a língua com sucesso. Não consigo perceber o porquê do mesmo não se passar com os Bascos, conheci vários estudantes bascos a estudar na minha universidade e nenhum sabia falar basco tirando algumas palavras e coisas básicas. O mais estranho é que muitos deles tinham andado em escolas bascas, onde aprendiam Basco e Castelhano mas mesmo assim não sabiam falar. É uma pena e uma perda terrível se a língua Basca deixar de ter falantes, estamos a falar da língua mais antiga de toda a Europa da qual ainda muito pouco se conhece das suas origens.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Vocês percebem melhor o Catalão...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTj0QTfab4o



...ou o Português?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8iH0LJoFWA

[Damião de Góis]

There are more differences between the Castillans and the Catalans than between the Castillans and the Portuguese.
Yet, Portugal a sovereign nation. According to alestedeloeste's woolly logic, Portugal should be part of the Spanish crown because it's a country of Ibero-Romance heritage. And what about the Basques, thenn ? :rolleyes:


How does that work? What are you measuring to conclude that?
Portugal has been a sovereign nation for almost 900 years while Catalonia has been a part of the kingdoms of Aragon and Castille for centuries. The autonomous region is quite recent also, so what kind of comparison is this?

[Dandelion]

Portugal should join Spain as an Autonomous Community and Catalonia should become independent.

https://www.getdigital.eu/web/getdigital/gfx/products/__generated__resized/1100x1100/Aufkleber_Trollface.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

Portugal should join Spain as an Autonomous Community and Catalonia should become independent.


In practice that would create two spanish (castillian) speaking countries in Europe (every catalan is a native castillian speaker). I bet they would still speak spanish, like the irish speak english even after becoming independent.
On the other hand the level of castillian in the new region Portugal would be very poor, it would take centuries of castillianization for us to reach the level catalans have nowadays.

[Loki]

(every catalan is a native castillian speaker)

I didn't know that. Things make a bit more sense now...

[Loki]

That is the quiz of the question: PEOPLE DONT WANT TO SECEDE!! How many times have we to say it??



Why not then hold an official, Madrid-sponsored referendum in Catalunya to settle this matter for once and for all? If you are correct, and most people there don't want to secede, then this problem will go away.

[Tietar]

For those who say that there is no relationship between Spain and Catalonia

Most common surnames in Spain:

http://i.imgur.com/BaTa9rw.jpg

Most common surnames in Catalonia:

http://i.imgur.com/WsaSEMy.jpg

http://www.lavanguardia.com/vangdata/20150602/54431560961/los-200-apellidos-mas-frecuentes-en-espana-y-catalunya.html

And these for the Basque country

1. Garcia
2. González
3. Fernández
4. Rodríguez
5. Pérez
6. Lopez
7. Martinez
8. Sanchez
9. Martin
10. Gómez
11. Ruiz
12. Alonso
13. Hernández
14. Alvarez
15. Jiménez
16. Gutierrez


Over time many will realize that an independence based on political motivations is currently impossible.

[Cristiano viejo]

Portugal should join Spain as an Autonomous Community and Catalonia should become independent.

https://www.getdigital.eu/web/getdigital/gfx/products/__generated__resized/1100x1100/Aufkleber_Trollface.jpg
Spanish Netherlands should join Spain as an Autonomous Community too :p


Eu sei que no país Basco a língua Basca não é usada no quotidiano. Pelo menos nas grandes cidades e centros urbanos, se estivermos a falar de pequenas aldeias e vilas principalmente nas montanhas mais recônditas vais encontrar muitos falantes nativos.
Eu já tive na Catalunha e é um misto de ambas as línguas, podes encontrar pessoas a falar na rua ambas. E tal como disseste, quase toda a gente sabe falar Catalão. Comigo falavam em Castelhano mas simplesmente porque eu sou Português. Na Catalunha têm conseguido preservar a língua com sucesso. Não consigo perceber o porquê do mesmo não se passar com os Bascos, conheci vários estudantes bascos a estudar na minha universidade e nenhum sabia falar basco tirando algumas palavras e coisas básicas. O mais estranho é que muitos deles tinham andado em escolas bascas, onde aprendiam Basco e Castelhano mas mesmo assim não sabiam falar. É uma pena e uma perda terrível se a língua Basca deixar de ter falantes, estamos a falar da língua mais antiga de toda a Europa da qual ainda muito pouco se conhece das suas origens.
Yo dudo mucho eso.


Why not then hold an official, Madrid-sponsored referendum in Catalunya to settle this matter for once and for all? If you are correct, and most people there don't want to secede, then this problem will go away.
That would be as giving the reason to separatists.
I insist, check any poll about Catalan separatism (most of them done by the own Catalan separatist government!!), in all of them the supporters of the independence are a minority. With Basques happens the same but the differences are even bigger (iirc the last poll, done by the Basque government, said that only 23% of Basques wish the independence).

It is the Catalan&Basque separatist propaganda who makes you believe that the supporters of independence are majority :rolleyes:

[EL_BARBARO]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/f9080148bcaea2676d5b31347342e9e0/tumblr_ngckdowsww1slxcr4o1_500.gif

[Lluna Plena]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxdlD5KuCA

[Lluna Plena]

Why not then hold an official, Madrid-sponsored referendum in Catalunya to settle this matter for once and for all? If you are correct, and most people there don't want to secede, then this problem will go away.

That's exactly what we ask for!!

[Tietar]

Why not then hold an official, Madrid-sponsored referendum in Catalunya to settle this matter for once and for all? If you are correct, and most people there don't want to secede, then this problem will go away.

Because independence would be a very serious problem as everyone here knows, Catalonia would be outside the EU, half of Catalan exports would risk, pensions would be lost, thousands of families broken, international companies that have their headquarters in Catalonia to Spain would leave, many jobs would be lost, and a lot of unpredictable problems.

Half of the Catalans do not want to separate, so they can not be forced to suffer those problems by a referendum won with 50 + 1%, whose 1% who will decide the chaos are a lot of immigrants who have washed brain (Also many Catalans who are children of Andalusian immigrants have been indoctrinated in schools and have no fucking idea what independence would mean, but this is another matter).

[Cristiano viejo]

Because independence would be a very serious problem as everyone here knows, Catalonia would be outside the EU, half of Catalan exports would risk, pensions would be lost, thousands of families broken, international companies that have their headquarters in Catalonia to Spain would leave, many jobs would be lost, and a lot of unpredictable problems.

Half of the Catalans do not want to separate, so they can not be forced to suffer those problems by a referendum won with 50 + 1%, whose 1% who will decide the chaos are a lot of immigrants who have washed brain (Also many Catalans who are children of Andalusian immigrants have been indoctrinated in schools and have no fucking idea what independence would mean, but this is another matter).

This is already happening, as you know.

[Tietar]

This is already happening, as you know.

except ignorant foreigners that the only reality of Catalonia they know is secessionist propaganda, everyone knows it.

News from two days ago

It accelerates the escape of companies from Catalonia to other communities

http://www.expansion.com/economia/2017/01/24/58873f8622601de53f8b4687.html

http://estaticos.expansion.com/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2017/01/24/14852792731519_546x0.jpg

[BeerBaron]

Because independence would be a very serious problem as everyone here knows, Catalonia would be outside the EU, half of Catalan exports would risk, pensions would be lost, thousands of families broken, international companies that have their headquarters in Catalonia to Spain would leave, many jobs would be lost, and a lot of unpredictable problems.

Half of the Catalans do not want to separate, so they can not be forced to suffer those problems by a referendum won with 50 + 1%, whose 1% who will decide the chaos are a lot of immigrants who have washed brain (Also many Catalans who are children of Andalusian immigrants have been indoctrinated in schools and have no fucking idea what independence would mean, but this is another matter).


They did all this scare mongering with the UK Brexit, none of it is gonna happen, trade deals will be negotiated, families will not be broken, the exports will be fine. International companies would not leave, in fact they would lobby for lower taxes.

[Tietar]

They did all this scare mongering with the UK Brexit, none of it is gonna happen, trade deals will be negotiated, families will not be broken, the exports will be fine. International companies would not leave, in fact they would lobby for lower taxes.

Do you compare UK brexit with the independence of Catalonia?

That independent Catalonia ceases to belong to the European Union is a fact, it is not a threat.

That they must create their own currency, and that it will devalue, is also a fact

exports will fine ?, just look at this. Aragon is more important than any other country, Madrid is important as Germany or Italy. Will they survive a possible boycott or simply import tariffs that apply to a foreign country?

http://i.imgur.com/qjkiK69.jpg

As for the companies, do you really believe that the foreign offices for all Spain that currently reside in Catalonia, will continue to run from Catalonia?

You think the FC. Barcelona will improve playing in a regional league?

You do not know anything about Spain

[Tietar]

Another disadvantage of independence, since they Will depend on nuclear energy, It will be necessary to build a cemetery of nuclear waste in Catalonia (renting it in a foreign country is very expensive).

http://www.nodo50.org/ecologistas.valladolid/IMG/png/centrales_nucleares_espana.png

No problem, every sacrifice is good for Wave the flag freely

http://i.imgur.com/s8RD2CR.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

They did all this scare mongering with the UK Brexit, none of it is gonna happen, trade deals will be negotiated, families will not be broken, the exports will be fine. International companies would not leave, in fact they would lobby for lower taxes.

You can not compare Brexit with Catalonia. UE is a super-artificial invent while Catalonia is part of Spain since ever.
And yes, international (and national) companies are leaving Catalonia ALREADY, simply by the uncertainty and risk of independentism that separatists are promoting, so imagine if the secession really happened...

[Dandelion]

They should fear leaving Spain instead of not wanting to leave. :D

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

That's not your business. Spain is not your country.

2 bad

[B01AB20]

Instead of a referemdum it will be new autonomical elections, maybe this same year. Something that nationalists don't want because the outcome, according to surveys, may be the losing of majority they have now in catalan parliament; they have majority in parliament despite they have less votes than the others, but election system favor the less populated provinces where nationalists always win by great margin.

Since nationalists became independists they have been losing votes every election. Sorry for you foreigners who desire so much the liberation of catalonia and don't give a fuck about what people living here feels about the matter.

Well, no sorry, fuck you idiots. :cool:

[Dandelion]

Since nationalists became independists they have been losing votes every election. Sorry for you foreigners who desire so much the liberation of catalonia and don't give a fuck about what people living here feels about the matter.

Well, no sorry, fuck you idiots. :cool:

I remember Flemish nationalists praising this. Bittereinder also would I think (because they think Catalan nationalism as less 'boring' and dynamic compared to grey Flemish nationalism). :p


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nPvfqn2hhI

Surprises me there aren't that many butthurt Spanish nationalist comments nor downvotes. :D

Nationalist discourses in Europe have gone soft though. More realist. No waving behind symbols, but more actual political motivations. It's called maturing.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Instead of a referemdum it will be new autonomical elections, maybe this same year. Something that nationalists don't want because the outcome, according to surveys, may be the losing of majority they have now in catalan parliament; they have majority in parliament despite they have less votes than the others, but election system favor the less populated provinces where nationalists always win by great margin.

Since nationalists became independists they have been losing votes every election. Sorry for you foreigners who desire so much the liberation of catalonia and don't give a fuck about what people living here feels about the matter.

Well, no sorry, fuck you idiots. :cool:

Triggered

[B01AB20]

I remember Flemish nationalists praising this. Bittereinder also would I think. :p

[video=youtube;7nPvfqn2hhI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nPvfqn2hhI[/video

Surprises me there aren't that many butthurt Spanish nationalist comments nor downvotes. :D

Nationalist discourses in Europe have gone soft though. More realist. No waving behind symbols, but more actual political motivations. It's called maturing.

not here, nationalism is mostly emotional and more intolerant and fanatic every day, the catalan goverment is absolutely sectarian and anti-spain, they don't mind at all the 52% people who don't want independence, they would send to concentation camps if they could, and people is attacked in the streets if they dare waving spanish symbols.

[Dandelion]

not here, nationalism is mostly emotional and more intolerant and fanatic every day, the catalan goverment is absolutely sectarian and anti-spain, they don't mind at all the 52% people who don't want independence, they would send to concentation camps if they could, and people is attacked in the streets if they dare waving spanish symbols.

Here it's funny. People live and let live, but would frown upon waving any nationalist symbol regardless. Walloons tend to be more nationalistic than Flemings I think ironically, because Francophone nationalism is a mainstream attitude among French-speakers, and thus all their parties are nationalist ones essentially. They just don't call it such. All Francophone parties are like our N-VA basically, but for Francophones. However, us voting for the N-VA (a Flemish nationalist party) makes Francophones believe there's a rise in Flemish nationalism suddenly.

[Tietar]

not here, nationalism is mostly emotional and more intolerant and fanatic every day, the catalan goverment is absolutely sectarian and anti-spain, they don't mind at all the 52% people who don't want independence, they would send to concentation camps if they could, and people is attacked in the streets if they dare waving spanish symbols.

This party has never been a secessionist until the crisis began and cases of corruption have been discovered. The Catalan government is just a corrupt party that has been robbing the Catalans for decades.

They are not anti-Spanish, and they do not give a fuck about the independence they know will never happen, they only use this to have more power, more support, divert attention on an imaginary enemy to the chavez style , And even receive cheers and applause, which would otherwise be impossible for a party that is covered in shit .

[Dandelion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L80U-G3YETg

I think I'm heading there wearing this.

http://images.soccerbox.com/real-madrid-home-shirt-2014-2015.jpg

[B01AB20]

This party has never been a secessionist until the crisis began and cases of corruption have been discovered. The Catalan government is just a corrupt party that has been robbing the Catalans for decades.

They are not anti-Spanish, and they do not give a fuck about the independence they know will never happen, they only use this to have more power, more support, divert attention on an imaginary enemy to the chavez style , And even receive cheers and applause, which would otherwise be impossible for a party that is covered in shit .

Well, then they have failed totally and nowadays only have a support of 17%, it has ceased to be the bigger catalan party in favor of ERC.

[B01AB20]

[video=youtube;L80U-G3YETg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L80U-G3YETg[/video

I think I'm heading there wearing this.



correction, 5 ways to piss off a fanatic nationalist. :rolleyes:

the 'mayoría silenciosa' don't give a fuck...

[Dandelion]

correction, 5 ways to piss off a fanatic nationalist. :rolleyes:

the 'mayoría silenciosa' don't give a fuck...

I wish Cinderella was here.

[B01AB20]

I wish Cinderella was here.

a special case, a lonely and embittered person who projected her anger with her life being rabidly anti-spanish despite having spanish blood.

a mental case more than a political one.

and I'm going to bed, dag.

[BeerBaron]

You can not compare Brexit with Catalonia. UE is a super-artificial invent while Catalonia is part of Spain since ever.
And yes, international (and national) companies are leaving Catalonia ALREADY, simply by the uncertainty and risk of independentism that separatists are promoting, so imagine if the secession really happened...








Maybe they should talk about lower taxes in Catalonia if they leave. Lower taxes bring business, even the talk of them brings it, as Trump as proven. Business will always go where it has the lowest cost.

[Damião de Góis]

I wish Cinderella was here.

I thought Lluna Plena was her?

[Mingle]

That's not the cause of the Carlist Wars. The Carlist Wars was an anti-liberal movement that had adherents in areas that were hyper traditional. Carlists fought on the side of Franco during the Spanish Civil War and when they no longer served a purpose he tried to stamp them out and was for the most part successful.

http://img.rutasconhistoria.es/1656_mapa_de_la_primera_guerra_carlista_1.jpg:firs t

Yes, that was the main point of the Carlist Wars, but the Carlist Wars had a strong regional/ethnic component (mainly Basque & Catalan) in regards to them as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_nationalism#Fueros_and_Carlism


Basque nationalism is rooted in Carlism and the loss, by the laws of 1839 and 1876, of the Ancien Régime relationship between the Spanish Basque provinces and the crown of Spain. During this time, the reactionary Fuerista movement pleaded for the maintenance of the fueros system and territorial autonomy against the centralizing pressures from liberal or conservative governments in Madrid. The Spanish government suppressed the fueros after the Third Carlist War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Carlist_War#Basque_reasons_for_Carlist_upris ing

[Mingle]

Here it's funny. People live and let live, but would frown upon waving any nationalist symbol regardless. Walloons tend to be more nationalistic than Flemings I think ironically, because Francophone nationalism is a mainstream attitude among French-speakers, and thus all their parties are nationalist ones essentially. They just don't call it such. All Francophone parties are like our N-VA basically, but for Francophones. However, us voting for the N-VA (a Flemish nationalist party) makes Francophones believe there's a rise in Flemish nationalism suddenly.


Why do you call them Francophones rather than Walloons?

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, that was the main point of the Carlist Wars, but the Carlist Wars had a strong regional/ethnic component (mainly Basque & Catalan) in regards to them as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_nationalism#Fueros_and_Carlism



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Carlist_War#Basque_reasons_for_Carlist_upris ing

Carlism born in Castile, for start with, and its moto was Dios, Patria y Rey (God, Patria and King) :rolleyes:

[Loki]

Why do you call them Francophones rather than Walloons?

Same thing. In Belgium, all Walloons are Francophones, and vice versa.

[Dandelion]

Why do you call them Francophones rather than Walloons?


Same thing. In Belgium, all Walloons are Francophones, and vice versa.


Well, technically there are also Frenchified people who aren't Walloons. And it is Francophone nationalism in Belgium that reigns in the French-speaking community (officially called 'French Community' even).

[Mingle]

Carlism born in Castile, for start with, and its moto was Dios, Patria y Rey (God, Patria and King) :rolleyes:

I didn't say that Carlism was centered around Basque nationalism, just that Carlism played an important role in Basque nationalism.

[Cristiano viejo]

I didn't say that Carlism was centered around Basque nationalism, just that Carlism played an important role in Basque nationalism.

Not very sure about this fact since the moment I am not a Basque nationalist :rolleyes: but that would not make sense. Carlism has nothing to do with Basque nationalism excepting the fact that some Basque Carlists wanted to restore their fueros (a kind of rights some regions had since the Medieval times).

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Mientras tanto, en el gran califato de Kosovo:

http://s.libertaddigital.com/fotos/noticias/650/0/kosovo-catalonia.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

Mientras tanto, en el gran califato de Kosovo:

http://s.libertaddigital.com/fotos/noticias/650/0/kosovo-catalonia.jpg

http://www.directe.cat/imatges/noticies/kosovo_es_serbia.jpg

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

http://www.directe.cat/imatges/noticies/kosovo_es_serbia.jpg

Sí, pero en ese estandarte no hay nada malo, solo diciendo la verdad.

[crazyladybutterfly]

The independence day will arrive soon....

Visca Catalunya!! ;)

I wish you good luck :) (if the majority of catans really want it)

[crazyladybutterfly]

Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Balearics, etc, are as much close genetically, phenotype wise, historically, and culturally, to other Spaniards, as Irish, Scots or Welsh are close to English (or probably even more). That's enough reason to keep them united as part of the same great nation, and to be against their separatism.

they should be united IF THEY WANT.. using the phenotype as a reason is a joke. Normal people don't give a fuck about it.

[alnortedelsur]

they should be united IF THEY WANT.. using the phenotype as a reason is a joke. Normal people don't give a fuck about it.

I don't mean only phenotype wise, but also racially, genetically, historically, and culturally. Regular people from those regions are not "oppressed" by Madrid, and their normal life is not affected negatively for being part of Spain. Separatism, and the tale of the "oppressed" Catalans and Basques is something promoted by the regional elites from Basque Country and Catalonia, because they want to manage the wealth produced by those industrial regions to themselves, without being accountable to Madrid.

[crazyladybutterfly]

I don't mean only phenotype wise, but also racially, genetically, historically, and culturally. Regular people from those regions are not "oppressed" by Madrid, and their normal life is not affected negatively for being part of Spain. Separatism, and the tale of the "oppressed" Catalans and Basques is something promoted by the regional elites from Basque Country and Catalonia, because they want to manage the wealth produced by those industrial regions to themselves, without being accountable to Madrid.

My bad for not being more specific with what I thought. Anyway I would give the catalonian independentists a chance... if it's only a minority who wants independence it shouldnt be a problem for spain.

[alnortedelsur]

My bad for not being more specific with what I thought. Anyway I would give the catalonian independentists a chance... if it's only a minority who wants independence it shouldnt be a problem for spain.

Yeah, I would give them the chance to go to a small deserted island to put their Catalan flag and only speak Catalan in there, provided that they stop bothering Spaniards (including the many Catalans who don't give a fuck about being independent, or don't even want to be independent).

[Cristiano viejo]

I wish you good luck :) (if the majority of catans really want it)

Then you dont wish it ;)

[Autrigón]

My bad for not being more specific with what I thought. Anyway I would give the catalonian independentists a chance... if it's only a minority who wants independence it shouldnt be a problem for spain.Agree with you, the fast way to finish with nationalistics questions is ask the people what they want to be. The politicians (not only in Spain, in all the countries on earth) should ask the citizens more often.
If the population of some place want to be independent whats the problem. I dont think the majority of catalans want the independence but I dont have problems to let them decide for themselves

[Lluna Plena]

I wish you good luck :) (if the majority of catans really want it)

Thank you, Crazyladybutterfly. I hope so.:):thumb001:

[Lluna Plena]

My bad for not being more specific with what I thought. Anyway I would give the catalonian independentists a chance... if it's only a minority who wants independence it shouldnt be a problem for spain.

The question is: how do they know we are just a minority if we don't have the right to vote?....No polls, no results.:noidea:

[Tietar]

Agree with you, the fast way to finish with nationalistics questions is ask the people what they want to be. The politicians (not only in Spain, in all the countries on earth) should ask the citizens more often.
If the population of some place want to be independent whats the problem. I dont think the majority of catalans want the independence but I dont have problems to let them decide for themselves

Should a Catalonian province become independent and create its own state if they decide democratically?

Should a village become independent of that province if they decide it democratically?

This you say is absurd, if people decide what they want to be would be to return to the feudal era, or even to the age of the caves

[Autrigón]

Should a Catalonian province become independent and create its own state if they decide democratically?

Should a village become independent of that province if they decide it democratically?

This you say is absurd, if people decide what they want to be would be to return to the feudal era, or even to the age of the cavesAbsurd? absurd is deny reality...and the reality is that in Catalonia there is a nationalist sentiment. and the more you deny it, the more that nationalist sentiment will grow.
Do you think that sentiment is going to disappear magically because you deny it? Thats absurd for me...

and of course if they decide it democratically they have all the rights to create their own state.

If your girlfriend wants to break the relationship with you, would you tie your girlfriend to a chair and lock her in a basement?

[Lluna Plena]

Absurd? absurd is deny reality...and the reality is that in Catalonia there is a nationalist sentiment. and the more you deny it, the more that nationalist sentiment will grow.
Do you think that sentiment is going to disappear magically because you deny it? Thats absurd for me...

and of course if they decide it democratically they have all the rights to create their own state.

If your girlfriend wants to break the relationship with you, would you tie your girlfriend to a chair and lock her in a basement?



Por fin alguien que dice las cosas con cordura. Eso es tener una mente abierta y ser demócrata de verdad.

Gràcies, company!. :thumb001:

[Tietar]

Absurd? absurd is deny reality...and the reality is that in Catalonia there is a nationalist sentiment. and the more you deny it, the more that nationalist sentiment will grow.
Do you think that sentiment is going to disappear magically because you deny it? Thats absurd for me...

and of course if they decide it democratically they have all the rights to create their own state.

If your girlfriend wants to break the relationship with you, would you tie your girlfriend to a chair and lock her in a basement?

sentiment?, reality?

According to the latest survey.

5% feel Spanish only
40% as Catalan as Spanish
24% more Catalan than Spanish
25% only Catalan

http://www.eldiario.es/politica/ciento-catalanes-izquierdas-espanol-catalan_0_603690005.html

The constitution is to protect the freedom of those who also feel Spanish, who are the majority. It is not to promote a dictatorial, manipulative, corrupt and ruinous state.

The girlfriend needs protection from scoundrels and ignorant.

[Albannach]

Maybe they feel Spanish in the same way Swedes, Norwegians and Danes feel Scandanavian. Spain should allow a referendum, If you are so sure Catalans are happy being part of Spain then you have nothing to worry about.

[Tietar]

Maybe they feel Spanish in the same way Swedes, Norwegians and Danes feel Scandanavian. Spain should allow a referendum, If you are so sure Catalans are happy being part of Spain then you have nothing to worry about.

I do not give a shit the 1% that can decant for independence in a referendum.

http://estaticos.elmundo.es/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2016/04/09/14601950930639.jpg

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/catalan-inmigrante.jpg

http://www.mediterraneodigital.com/images/2013/julio/pakistanis.jpg

http://www.corazonblanco.com/media/galeria/44/4/0/4/3/n_real_madrid_anti_barca-10503404.jpeg

Are like a destructive sect, manipulation and brain Wash in schools and in the media is a fact. This a civilized society can not allow, and has already allowed too much. It has yielded and consented a lot and that is why it has come here.

http://www.lavozlibre.com/userfiles/2a_decada/image/FOTOS%202014/09%20SEPTIEMBRE%202014/10%20SEPTIEMBRE%202014/abecedari-independencia.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vfwTGG6-7rA/Unl-877wtHI/AAAAAAAAAl0/wTkvjPX5bUE/s1600/nin%25CC%2583os+independentistas.jpeg

[B01AB20]

Hoy se juzga si inhabilitan a un expresidente de la Generalitat y a dos exconsejeras. Quiero recordar que sacaron pecho y sonrisa el 9-N, una consulta festiva ilegal que demostró a las claras las debilidades del independentismo. Sólo votaron uno de cada tres catalanes. Ahí empezó el desgarro interno. Quienes acusan a Madrid –con razón– de no escuchar ni dialogar son los mismos que no escuchan y menosprecian a una mayoría de catalanes –nos tratan, en el fondo, de malos catalanes– cuando ese día, no yendo a votar, enviamos un mensaje muy, muy democrático.


¿Nadie se sonroja del espectáculo de hoy en clave nuestra? Reaparecen los autocares, símbolo del franquismo, y se insta a los funcionarios a coger un día libre para hacer la pelota al jefe y manifestar la adhesión inquebrantable a la causa, marcando así a los compañeros que acudan al trabajo. Si no es un tic totalitario, apaga y vámonos...


Que Madrid es como es, ya lo sabemos muchos catalanes. Lo malo de este proceso es que está sirviendo para exhibir lo peor de Catalunya: un país vulgar donde una mitad escasa y poseída de la verdad absoluta desprecia al resto. Yo no quiero ser el palmero de Madrid, pero, por proximidad, mucho menos ser el palmero del soberanismo, y estoy harto de que la Generalitat dé la espalda al latido de las urnas y ahora apele a autocares y propaganda.

http://www.lavanguardia.com/opinion/20170206/414037587473/un-dia-negro-para-catalunya.html

[Tietar]

http://www.lavanguardia.com/opinion/20170206/414037587473/un-dia-negro-para-catalunya.html

con toda la razón. de siempre se ha visto a los Catalanes en el resto de España con respeto y admiración, como de gente muy sensata e inteligente. Pero es que últimamente están dando una imagen, especialmente por sus representantes, que es de vergüenza ajena, como muy cutre y paleta, hasta haciendo el ridículo por el extranjero.

[Cristiano viejo]

These days some forces of the Guardia Civil have been sent to Catalonia since different parts of Spain to restore the order xD
They have been stronlgy cheered when they left for their destination, the people shouting-singing "¡A por ellos, oe, a por ellos oe!" (Go get them!) :lol:

Some examples

Since Huelva, Andalusia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRCJEwaGH3Y

Since Oviedo, Asturias

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UggvkhEb2k

Since Santander, Cantabria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMJVTrnFgr4

[Melki]

Why don't you just have the guts to do like David Cameron in 2014 with Scotland? It turned out that most Scots wanted to remain British and it was a temporary victory for Cameron (until Brexit divorce at least). Chances for Catalonia to remain part of Spain are high, like in Scotland, thus allowing Rajoy to be strengthened in his position. But Madrid stubbornness may weaken him. Sometimes in life, you have to be a gambler, no matter how hard it gets.

[Cristiano viejo]

Why don't you just have the guts to do like David Cameron in 2014 with Scotland? It turned out that most Scots wanted to remain British and it was a temporary victory for Cameron (until Brexit divorce at least). Chances for Catalonia to remain part of Spain are high, like in Scotland, thus allowing Rajoy to be strengthened in his position. But Madrid stubbornness may weaken him. Sometimes in life, you have to be a gambler, no matter how hard it gets.

Scottish already are asking a new referendum. Are we so for the rest of our lifes, asking one new every year?

And overall, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MADRID WHEN PARIS IS THOUSAND TIMES HARDER WITH THE CATALAN INDEPENDENCE?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

If catalans vote majority independance i heard they will declare independance with or without spains consent.

[alnortedelsur]

If catalans vote majority independance i heard they will declare independance with or without spains consent.

The votes of the third and fourth world scum that pro-independentists want to make vote, should not count.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The votes of the third and fourth world scum that pro-independentists want to make vote, should not count.Im just stating what i heard from the youtube news about it.

[alnortedelsur]

Im just stating what i heard from the youtube news about it.

And there should be a massive participation, of only and exclusively Spanish citizens (from ALL Spain, because the secession or not of Catalonia is the business of ALL Spaniards) of full or overwhelm Spanish stock. Is not valid that only pro-independents go out to vote massively, and they claim the secession of Catalonia based on their only vote, being them less than 50% of the universe of voters.

In any case, the referendum should stay illegal and unconstitutional, and if Madrid says it, that's what it is, because Spain is only one and indivisible.

All polls have demonstrated that Catalan independentists are a minority, and they should stop insisting "erre que erre" with their shit.

[Cristiano viejo]

And there should be a massive participation, of only and exclusively Spanish citizens (from ALL Spain, because the secession or not of Catalonia is the business of ALL Spaniards) of full or overwhelm Spanish stock. Is not valid that only pro-independents go out to vote massively, and they claim the secession of Catalonia based on their only vote, being them less than 50% of the universe of voters.

In any case, the referendum should stay illegal and unconstitutional, and if Madrid says it, that's what it is, because Spain is only one and indivisible.

All polls have demonstrated that Catalan independentists are a minority, and they should stop insisting "erre que erre" with their shit.
Dont worry and dont waste your time with people that have nothing to do with this. Reeferendum will not be celebrated, it is already said.

[Melki]

Scottish already are asking a new referendum. Are we so for the rest of our lifes, asking one new every year?

And overall, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT MADRID WHEN PARIS IS THOUSAND TIMES HARDER WITH THE CATALAN INDEPENDENCE?

Yes, I know. Paris gives its full support to Madrid because Catalonia's potential independence could set a precedent and cause a chain reaction, eventually leading to many upheavals in French regions, notably in Roussillon.

But I don't give a damn, I support the rights of peoples to self-determination.

[B01AB20]

Yes, I know. Paris gives its full support to Madrid because Catalonia's potential independence could set a precedent and cause a chain reaction, eventually leading to many upheavals in French regions, notably in Roussillon.

But I don't give a damn, I support the rights of peoples to self-determination.

Ayuda a un pueblo oprimido melki!!!

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/27/59cbd9e2ca4741fd2c8b45a8.html

[GiCa]

I support freedom of opinion and auto determination and more over democracy

The central government behaved undemocratically by taking penal and coercitive positions

That is not democracy

People should vote and express freely what they want

So I support ethically the catalans

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

And there should be a massive participation, of only and exclusively Spanish citizens (from ALL Spain, because the secession or not of Catalonia is the business of ALL Spaniards) of full or overwhelm Spanish stock. Is not valid that only pro-independents go out to vote massively, and they claim the secession of Catalonia based on their only vote, being them less than 50% of the universe of voters.

In any case, the referendum should stay illegal and unconstitutional, and if Madrid says it, that's what it is, because Spain is only one and indivisible.

All polls have demonstrated that Catalan independentists are a minority, and they should stop insisting "erre que erre" with their shit.Its a referendum of catalonians only. It would be stupid and pointless if it was for non catalans

[Black Panther]

Long live Catalonia!

[Laberia]

Spain has deployed thousands of policemen in Catalunya. The situation is boiling there.

[Damião de Góis]

Who else is voting to form a new country? Any takers?

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, I know. Paris gives its full support to Madrid because Catalonia's potential independence could set a precedent and cause a chain reaction, eventually leading to many upheavals in French regions, notably in Roussillon.

But I don't give a damn, I support the rights of peoples to self-determination.
No no no, I am not talking about Paris supporting Madrid (do they do by the way? :rolleyes:), I am talking about that you should worry and focus on how Paris oppresses the Catalan rights, since that you are French and live there :thumb001:



I support freedom of opinion and auto determination and more over democracy

The central government behaved undemocratically by taking penal and coercitive positions

That is not democracy

People should vote and express freely what they want

So I support ethically the catalans

Nice that you worry for Padanian, Sardinian or Sicilian separatists.

So do you support ethnically the Catalans? jajajajajajajajajajajajjaja!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they are everything less ethnically Catalans, Terrona :lol:
You made me laugh, thumb up for you :D

[GiCa]

*it s Ethically

Read again


I m for democracy and freedom of opinion

[alnortedelsur]

*it s Ethically

Read again


I m for democracy and freedom of opinion

Catalonian separatists don't respect the freedom of opinion of hundreds of thousands of Catalans who also feel Spanish and don't want Catalonia to be independent.

Are you also for their right of having their free opinion, then?

[Melki]

No no no, I am not talking about Paris supporting Madrid (do they do by the way? :rolleyes:), I am talking about that you should worry and focus on how Paris oppresses the Catalan rights, since that you are French and live there :thumb001:


North Catalonians don't want independence yet, they aren't ready for that. For the moment, they only claim more autonomy from Paris.

http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/catalunya-nord-estatuto-independencia_184512_102.html

And yes, France plays on the Spanish side, for fear of contamination. You should better inform yourself.

[Melki]

Catalonian separatists don't respect the freedom of opinion of hundreds of thousands of Catalans who also feel Spanish and don't want Catalonia to be independent.

Are you also for their right of having their free opinion, then?

OK, no problem. If they don't want to be independent, they just need to use their civil rights and vote 'NO', democracy is that simple.
I don't understand why you get so passionate about this issue. Venezuela's crisis is much more thorny.

[Cristiano viejo]

North Catalonians don't want independence yet, they aren't ready for that. For the moment, they only claim more autonomy from Paris.

That is lie, they are re-claiming the independence since the same moment than South Catalans.
What happens is that France oppresses them much more than Spain, and they are not allowed to be so visible.


And yes, France plays on the Spanish side, for fear of contamination. You should better inform yourself.
That is facing the public nothing else. France supports Spain in this like they did against ETA in 80s :rolleyes:

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That is lie, they are re-claiming the independence since the same moment than South Catalans.
What happens is that France oppresses them much more than Spain, and they are not allowed to be so visible.

I don't want to interfere much in a matter that's not really of my concern but this is absolutely true. The state of France is extremely more oppressive and intolerant towards any autonomous movement within France than Spain ever was. In France most dialects, different languages and local costumes have been wiped out due to assertive Francophone measures throughout the ages and mass immigration from MENA regions.

[Heather Duval]

When the economy was doing fine talk of separation was a fringe movement. The economy tanks and suddenly it's 'lets have our own country' by a larger element of Catalan society as if that will solve their economic woes. I'd be supportive if there was consistency. More than a century ago there was a similar situation: Spain loses Cuba as a colony and as a consequence Catalan business monopoly on the Cuban sugar trade ends. The economy begins to tank and suddenly there is calls for independence. The economy improves when the rest of Europe goes off to fight in WW1. Talk of independence goes back to the fringe. It's a 'what have you done for me lately' political movement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uizdKZAGE

[Cristiano viejo]

I don't want to interfere much in a matter that's not really of my concern but this is absolutely true. The state of France is extremely more oppressive and intolerant towards any autonomous movement within France than Spain ever was. In France most dialects, different languages and local costumes have been wiped out due to assertive Francophone measures throughout the ages and mass immigration from MENA regions.

Just an example from two or three weeks ago: a couple of Britons wanted to name his child with the next name: Fañch... and the French court has forbiden it alleging the letter Ñ, which forms part of the Breton vocabulary, is illegal in France

https://www.efe.com/efe/espana/gente/la-justicia-francesa-prohibe-letra-n-en-el-nombre-de-un-bebe/10007-3378152

[alnortedelsur]

OK, no problem. If they don't want to be independent, they just need to use their civil rights and vote 'NO', democracy is that simple.
I don't understand why you get so passionate about this issue. Venezuela's crisis is much more thorny.

Venezuela is a lost case, and I left Venezuela several years ago.

And I still have showed a lot of concern for what is happening in Venezuela, because I still feel Venezuelan despite of having left my country several years ago. Check all my participation on the thread "shit going on in Venezuela" opened by Etain.

And I am also Spanish citizen, lived several years in Spain, and my mom is a full Spanish, and all of her ancestors were Spanish since the first amoeba.

I don't want the country of my mom, and where a great part of my ancestors are from to be split apart and destroyed by a bunch of anti Spanish people.

And no, Catalan separatists don't respect the free opinion of those Catalans who don't think like them. Why do you conveniently ignore this article:

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/27/59cbd9e2ca4741fd2c8b45a8.html

that was showed to you by B01AB20??

[Melki]

That is lie, they are re-claiming the independence since the same moment than South Catalans.
What happens is that France oppresses them much more than Spain, and they are not allowed to be so visible.


That is facing the public nothing else. France supports Spain in this like they did against ETA in 80s :rolleyes:

In North Catalonia, only 5% of the population can speak fluent Catalan. You may understand that the independentist movement is weak compared to Spain, but exists anyway.

And yes, concerning ETA, France helped Spain A LOT in the 80's-90's. Even my uncle, who has always been innocent and was never engaged in violent actions , got troubles with the French authorities.

[Cristiano viejo]

In North Catalonia, only 5% of the population can speak fluent Catalan. You may understand that the independentist movement is weak compared to Spain, but exists anyway.
Nice argument! I will move to the Basque case: as less even than the 5% of the Basque population can speak fluent Basque, you will agree with me in that the Basque independentist movement is weak, true? :thumb001:


And yes, concerning ETA, France helped Spain A LOT in the 80's-90's. Even my uncle, who has always been innocent and was never engaged in violent actions , got troubles with the French authorities.
Not in 80s, DONT LIE!!!!!!! GAL was created and attacked in France precisely to involve France in the problem since that terrorists of ETA hid in France and the French authorities did nothing against them.

With who do you think are you talking... with a Chinese who does not know anything about the matter or what? :picard1:

[Melki]

Venezuela is a lost case, and I left Venezuela several years ago.

And I still have showed a lot of concern for what is happening in Venezuela, because I still feel Venezuelan despite of having left my country several years ago. Check all my participation on the thread "shit going on in Venezuela" opened by Etain.

And I am also Spanish citizen, lived several years in Spain, and my mom is a full Spanish, and all of her ancestors were Spanish since the first amoeba.

I don't want the country of my mom, and where a great part of my ancestors are from to be split apart and destroyed by a bunch of anti Spanish people.

And no, Catalan separatists don't respect the free opinion of those Catalans who don't think like them. Why do you conveniently ignore this article:

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/27/59cbd9e2ca4741fd2c8b45a8.html

that was showed to you by B01AB20??

Yes, I saw your thread, I even added comments and links to Venezuelan news sites.

It's obvious that you're more worried about Spanish skin tones than about the troubled situation in Venezuela. Sorry, but it's the bare truth, just check your own comments.

I think Rajoy should have done like Cameron with Scotland in 2014. If non-independentists are the majority, as it seems to be the case, then those in favor of pro-Spanish unity have nothing to fear.

[Cristiano viejo]

It's obvious that you're more worried about Spanish skin tones than about the troubled situation in Venezuela. Sorry, but it's the bare truth, just check your own comments.
And you more worried about the Spanish topics than about the French ones.


I think Rajoy should have done like Cameron with Scotland in 2014. If non-independentists are the majority, as it seems to be the case, then those in favor of pro-Spanish unity have nothing to fear.
Dont insist, Scottish already are asking a new referendum. This is the story of never ending.

[Melki]

Nice argument! I will move to the Basque case: as less even than the 5% of the Basque population can speak fluent Basque, you will agree with me in that the Basque independentist movement is weak, true? :thumb001:


Not in 80s, DONT LIE!!!!!!! GAL was created and attacked in France precisely to involve France in the problem since that terrorists of ETA hid in France and the French authorities did nothing against them.

With who do you think are you talking... with a Chinese who does not know anything about the matter or what? :picard1:

Directly quoted from Wikipedia:
The Basque language is spoken by 28.4% of Basques in all territories (751,500). Of these, 93.2% (700,300) are in the Spanish area of the Basque Country and the remaining 6.8% (51,200) are in the French portion.

You may understand that language is an essential component of a national identity, which is weaker in French regions than in Spanish ones.

And sorry to disappoint you, but Spanish and French police forces started their collaboration on national security matters in 1986, when Spain joined the Common Market in 1986.

[Melki]

And you more worried about the Spanish topics than about the French ones.


Dont insist, Scottish already are asking a new referendum. This is the story of never ending.

I'm also more involved in Kurdish matters than in French ones. Not my fault if no French province actively asks for independence

[Melki]

and mass immigration from MENA regions.

...and from Portugal too. Don't forget your country still belonged to the Third-world until the 70's. That was when most of our migrants originated from your country, with a peak around the mid-70's, before being replaced by the Maghrebans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_people_in_France

[Cristiano viejo]

Directly quoted from Wikipedia:
The Basque language is spoken by 28.4% of Basques in all territories (751,500). Of these, 93.2% (700,300) are in the Spanish area of the Basque Country and the remaining 6.8% (51,200) are in the French portion.

hahahahahaha 28% hahahahaha


You may understand that language is an essential component of a national identity, which is weaker in French regions than in Spanish ones.
No, it is not weaker, and no, if language was an essential component Mexico etc would be part of Spain still.
This has nothing to do with what you are saying, independentists in 2017 are like independentists in 1810, they only look their interests.


And sorry to disappoint you, but Spanish and French police forces started their collaboration on national security matters in 1986, when Spain joined the Common Market in 1986.
FALSE. GAL was created precisely to involve France in the fight. France "supported" terrorists of ETA by inaction when they fled to France.


I'm also more involved in Kurdish matters than in French ones. Not my fault if no French province actively asks for independence
Cheap excuse. One of the greatest that I have seen ever by your part.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

...and from Portugal too. Don't forget your country still belonged to the Third-world until the 70's. That was when most of our migrants originated from your country, with a peak around the mid-70's, before being replaced by the Maghrebans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_people_in_France

Portugueses never represented any threat to French's values or culture. Quoting from the Wikipedia article you sent:

"The Portuguese are known in France as hard workers."

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

If you don't believe it because your brain is filled with leftist propaganda then hear what the most anti-immigration presidential candidate of France had to say about us during the elections:

"The Portuguese community in France is well assimilated within our society, respects the laws and our way of life, the Portuguese love France, they are hard workers, they do not create any problem and they are my friends", says the presidential candidate Marine Le Pen.

"The Portuguese do not have problems with us or with the French because they are our cousins" - Marine Le Pen

"The Portugueses in France are the hardest against immigrants who come here and respect no one!" - Marine Le Pen

Source: http://expresso.sapo.pt/actualidade/marine-le-pen-portugueses-sao-os-mais-duros-contra-os-nao-respeitadores=f720146

[alnortedelsur]

If you don't believe it because your brain is filled with leftist propaganda then hear what the most anti-immigration presidential candidate of France had to say about us during the elections:

"The Portuguese community in France is well assimilated within our society, respects the laws and our way of life, the Portuguese love France, they are hard workers, they do not create any problem and they are my friends", says the presidential candidate Marine Le Pen.

"The Portuguese do not have problems with us or with the French because they are our cousins" - Marine Le Pen

"The Portugueses in France are the hardest against immigrants who come here and respect no one!" - Marine Le Pen

Source: http://expresso.sapo.pt/actualidade/marine-le-pen-portugueses-sao-os-mais-duros-contra-os-nao-respeitadores=f720146

I can attest, for being from a country (Venezuela) that received hundreds of thousands of Portuguese immigrants, that Portuguese immigrants abroad are very hard working people.

They greatly contributed (and same goes with Spanish and Italian immigrants) to the growth of Venezuela on its better times.

[Sebastianus Rex]

...and from Portugal too. Don't forget your country still belonged to the Third-world until the 70's. That was when most of our migrants originated from your country, with a peak around the mid-70's, before being replaced by the Maghrebans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_people_in_France

Don't be an idiot when someone points the obvious truth that mass afro-muslim immigration in France and the disastrous faillure in assimilating a significant portion of that population is the most serious threat to French internal stability, only a deluded fool doesn't recognize it... yet.

Most Portuguese immigration to France was due to the colonial war (migration to the ultramarine provinces was stopped when the war erupted in the early 60's) and consumed 1/3 of the national GDP for more than one decade, so France became the most viable and easiest alternative to poor Portuguese peasants who despite being uneducated and ignorant were always very hard working, under represented on crime statistics and with the younger generations well or fully integrated.

[Melki]

hahahahahaha 28% hahahahaha


No, it is not weaker, and no, if language was an essential component Mexico etc would be part of Spain still.
This has nothing to do with what you are saying, independentists in 2017 are like independentists in 1810, they only look their interests.


FALSE. GAL was created precisely to involve France in the fight. France "supported" terrorists of ETA by inaction when they fled to France.


Cheap excuse. One of the greatest that I have seen ever by your part.

Yes, only 28%...Now compare with the big amount of Catalan-speakers in Catalunya and you will stop laughing.

Mexico and the rest of Latin America was a different case. Just like in Anglophone America, the revolt was led by the White elite of criollos (padre Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla in Mexico) who wanted to cut the umbilical cord (Spain was under the House of Bonaparte and cut from local realities). Indigenous were too poor and illiterate in that time to develop a national consciousness, Mexico had to wait until 1858 to have its first full native President: Benito Juarez.

And France made much more efforts than Spain to catch and arrest ETA terrorists. Why? Precisely because France was their favorite hideout. Check on Google if you're not convinced.rf

[Melki]

Don't be an idiot when someone points the obvious truth that mass afro-muslim immigration in France and the disastrous faillure in assimilating a significant portion of that population is the most serious threat to French internal stability, only a deluded fool doesn't recognize it... yet.

Most Portuguese immigration to France was due to the colonial war (migration to the ultramarine provinces was stopped when the war erupted in the early 60's) and consumed 1/3 of the national GDP for more than one decade, so France became the most viable and easiest alternative to poor Portuguese peasants who despite being uneducated and ignorant were always very hard working, under represented on crime statistics and with the younger generations well or fully integrated.

But no Portuguese ever managed to become minister or mayor of a major city, unlike Spaniards and MENA. Yes, you can still mention Carlos Tavares' unique case. Then just know that Renault-Nissan's chairman and CEO is Carlos Ghosn, a Brazilian-Lebanese. The Portuguese community in France is first and foremost reputed for its manual workers, not for its intellectuals.

[Melki]

If you don't believe it because your brain is filled with leftist propaganda then hear what the most anti-immigration presidential candidate of France had to say about us during the elections:

"The Portuguese community in France is well assimilated within our society, respects the laws and our way of life, the Portuguese love France, they are hard workers, they do not create any problem and they are my friends", says the presidential candidate Marine Le Pen.

"The Portuguese do not have problems with us or with the French because they are our cousins" - Marine Le Pen

"The Portugueses in France are the hardest against immigrants who come here and respect no one!" - Marine Le Pen

Source: http://expresso.sapo.pt/actualidade/marine-le-pen-portugueses-sao-os-mais-duros-contra-os-nao-respeitadores=f720146

And who votes for Marine Le Pen and the Front National ? Usually it's the uneducated working class. Same in East-Germany with AfD. The ultra-right replaced the Left in their hearts. Le Pen wanted to seduce the potential Portuguese electorate: uneducated, Catholic, traditionalist and family-oriented. Hard workers? Certainly. Portuguese are to France what Poles are to Germany: a moral and cheap proletariat. Sorry Portuguese, but this is the bare truth.

[Damião de Góis]

But no Portuguese ever managed to become minister or mayor of a major city, unlike Spaniards and MENA. Yes, you can still mention Carlos Tavares' unique case. Then just know that Renault-Nissan's chairman and CEO is Carlos Ghosn, a Brazilian-Lebanese. The Portuguese community in France is first and foremost reputed for its manual workers, not for its intellectuals.

But of course, only the poorest and most uneducated immigrate to France (historically it's like that). Carlos Tavares doesn't fit the profile, his father was an accountant for a french company and his mother taught french at school. He was just interested in France for some strange reason, so he went to study there.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, only 28%...
Not in your wildest dreams 28% of Basques are able to speak Basque :cool:


Now compare with the big amount of Catalan-speakers in Catalunya and you will stop laughing.
Probably 80-90%, why do you think that means a problem for me??


Mexico and the rest of Latin America was a different case. Just like in Anglophone America, the revolt was led by the White elite of criollos (padre Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla in Mexico) who wanted to cut the umbilical cord (Spain was under the House of Bonaparte and cut from local realities). Indigenous were too poor and illiterate in that time to develop a national consciousness, Mexico had to wait until 1858 to have its first full native President: Benito Juarez.
It is exactly the same case. The ellite worriying for themselves, not for the people.


And France made much more efforts than Spain to catch and arrest ETA terrorists. Why? Precisely because France was their favorite hideout. Check on Google if you're not convinced.rf
WHAT THE FUCK... :picard1:

[Laberia]

I support freedom of opinion and auto determination and more over democracy

The central government behaved undemocratically by taking penal and coercitive positions

That is not democracy

People should vote and express freely what they want

So I support ethically the catalans

It's impossible to talk about freedom of opinion in a situation of occupation. Madrid has sent thousands of police in Catalunya. I will not be surprised if in the next days we will see tanks on the streets of Barcelona.

[GiCa]

It's impossible to talk about freedom of opinion in a situation of occupation. Madrid has sent thousands of police in Catalunya. I will not be surprised if in the next days we will see tanks on the streets of Barcelona.

that's dictatorship

very disgusting

[Cristiano viejo]

George Soros is financiating the Catalan separatist campaign

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/soros-estelada2.png

The George Soros Open Society Initiative for Europe Foundation funded in 2014 organizations that fight for Catalonia's independence, newspaper La Vanguardia revealed the last year.

According to internal documents, the Open Society Initiative for Europe delivered $ 27.049 to the Diplocat, a body created by the Generalitat of Catalonia with the participation of several private entities; and $ 24.973 to the International Information and Documentation Center in Barcelona (CIDOB - Barcelona Information and Documentation Center), an independent think tank.

http://www.alertadigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/open4.jpg

Sources of Diplocat's management admitted to La Vanguardia the financing of this project by the founding of the famous financier. In fact, it is not the only contribution to Catalan agencies or think tanks that Soros has helped economically. CIDOB, a think tank of international prestige under the umbrella of various Catalan administrations, also received $ 24.973 to finance a day on integration.

The Diplocat international seminar, entitled "European Elections 2014: l'augment de xenofòbia i els moviments euroescèptics a Europa", was coordinated by Elisabet Moragas and was held in camera and could only be attended by invitation.

According to the explanations of the Diplocat, chaired by Albert Royo, it was conducted in the form of open dialogue between academic experts and political representatives, all with experience on the subject of debate, together with influential journalists or media representatives from different countries of the EU.

http://www.alertadigital.com/2017/09/28/george-soros-financia-el-independentismo-catalan/

[Laberia]

that's dictatorship

very disgusting

Yes, it's true.
If Catalunya becomes independent, we will witness a process at the end of which Spain will cease to exist.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, it's true.
If Catalunya becomes independent, we will witness a process at the end of which Spain will cease to exist.
Are you saying that with no Catalonia, no Spain? hahaha that is nice, it is not your small Tosk intention but you are relating Catalonia with Spain :lol:

[Damião de Góis]

No European Union member has supported the catalan independentist cause. Jean-Claude Juncker has said he will follow the decision of the spanish constitutional court, but if somehow Catalonia became independent they would be out of the EU and would need to apply for membership (Spain could then reject their apply).

[Melki]

According to José Luis Villacañas, Spanish philosopher and historique of political ideas, Spain has always been a weak state unable to build a national homogeneity. He thinks Spain is more a state than a nation, born from an imperial society, very similar to Germany.
An imperial society generates heterogeneity, whereas society based on a national model generates homogeneity. A centralized state with imperial interests does not produce a Nation. The only legislation ever shared between all the Iberian kingdoms, including Castile and Catalonia, for many centuries, was the Inquisition.
Spain has nonetheless been strong enough to prevent its heterogeneous elements from leaving it, convincing the separatists to stay either by force or by agreement. Only Portugal managed to emancipate itself.

https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.elmundo.es/opinion/2017/07/01/5956abb6ca4741d7688b45d5.html#ampshare=http://www.elmundo.es/opinion/2017/07/01/5956abb6ca4741d7688b45d5.html

[Damião de Góis]

According to José Luis Villacañas, Spanish philosopher and historique of political ideas, Spain has always been a weak state unable to build a national homogeneity. He thinks Spain is more a state than a nation, born from an imperial society, very similar to Germany.
An imperial society generates heterogeneity, whereas society based on a national model generates homogeneity. A centralized state with imperial interests does not produce a Nation. The only legislation ever shared between all the Iberian kingdoms, including Castile and Catalonia, for many centuries, was the Inquisition.
Spain has nonetheless been strong enough to prevent its heterogeneous elements from leaving it, convincing the separatists to stay either by force or by agreement. Only Portugal managed to emancipate itself.

https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.elmundo.es/opinion/2017/07/01/5956abb6ca4741d7688b45d5.html#ampshare=http://www.elmundo.es/opinion/2017/07/01/5956abb6ca4741d7688b45d5.html

Are you trolling again or just being ignorant? Portugal has been a country since the early stages of the Reconquista, it didn't "leave Spain". It was anexed in the 16th century for 50 years, a shorter period than the duration of the Spanish Netherlands. Did they "leave Spain" too?

[alnortedelsur]

that's dictatorship

very disgusting


Yes, it's true.
If Catalunya becomes independent, we will witness a process at the end of which Spain will cease to exist.

You both and other anti-Spanish haters wish with vehemency the dismembering of Spain, but it won't ever happen. Keep waiting...

https://attaboyplumbing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/waiting-269x300.gif

[B01AB20]

Are you trolling again or just being ignorant? Portugal has been a country since the early stages of the Reconquista, it didn't "leave Spain". It was anexed in the 16th century for 50 years, a shorter period than the duration of the Spanish Netherlands. Did they "leave Spain" too?

yeah, you can imagine what kind of 'philosopher and historique??? of political ideas' is ese tal Villacañas... another gilipollas cultural-marxist.

[Melki]

yeah, you can imagine what kind of 'philosopher and historique??? of political ideas' is ese tal Villacañas... another gilipollas cultural-marxist.

"historian" was changed into "historique" by the text prediction on my phone, dumbass.

Cultural Marxist: meaningless rap-bag term frequently used by outwardly bigoted and ignorant TA junk members when confronted with superior intelligence or ideas. A way
to beat a retreat and save face when they fail to find a valid rebuttal argument.

[Cristiano viejo]

Nor a single post of Melki about the Kurdish referendum in its threads...

[B01AB20]

"historian" was changed into "historique" by the text prediction on my phone, dumbass.

Cultural Marxist: meaningless rap-bag term frequently used by outwardly bigoted and ignorant TA junk members when confronted with superior intelligence or ideas. A way
to beat a retreat and save face when they fail to find a valid rebuttal argument.

ehmmm.... yeah, I cannot find a 'valid rebuttal argument' to the philosophical and historic political idea of Portugal managing to emancipate from Spain centuries before Spain appears in history as a political entity. :picard1:

And yeah, I like more the term 'cultural-marxist' than 'stupid prejudiced leftist', they're sinonyms but the first is more chic.

[Melki]

ehmmm.... yeah, I cannot find a 'valid rebuttal argument' to the philosophical and historic political idea of Portugal managing to emancipate from Spain centuries before Spain appears in history as a political entity. :picard1:

And yeah, I like more the term 'cultural-marxist' than 'stupid prejudiced leftist', they're sinonyms but the first is more chic.

Yeah, yeah...as if Portugal had never been united to (rather absorbed by) the Spanish crown between 1580 and 1640...
As for "cultural Marxist"...it really exists but isn't a synonym of "leftist". No need to be a professor of political thought to know that this expression is always misused by TA members, uncultured millennials who don't really know what they're talking about.

[Laberia]

that's dictatorship

very disgusting
They have some experience.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Yeah, yeah...as if Portugal had never been united to (rather absorbed by) the Spanish crown between 1580 and 1640...
As for "cultural Marxist"...it really exists but isn't a synonym of "leftist". No need to be a professor of political thought to know that this expression is always misused by TA members, uncultured millennials who don't really know what they're talking about.

Where did you learned History ?

Felipe II (I of Portugal) was son of Isabel de Portugal (wife of Emperor Carlos and the most beautiful Queen in the history of Spain) and grandson of D.João III, the man was half Portuguese (as much as royal members can be since they all end being european mutts) and spoke the language fluently, when D.Sebastião died without sucession, Felipe was indeed the legitimate heir to the Crown.

Attempts of uniting the two kingdoms under one crown had been tried several times before, one time it was very close of that happening under the lead of the House of Aviz (Portuguese) but prince Afonso (married with Isabel of Aragón) died (fall from the horse) before having children and history took a very different path.

Anyway, it's ridiculous to compare Portugal (oldest surviving independent kingdom of the Peninsula and old nationality with old consolidated borders) with Catalonia wich was never a kingdom, never a country, never ruled itself and as a political entity was never more than a county and most recently a semi-autonomous region. :033102st:

[Melki]

Where did you learned History ?

Felipe II (I of Portugal) was son of Isabel de Portugal (wife of Emperor Carlos and the most beautiful Queen in the history of Spain) and grandson of D.João III, the man was half Portuguese (as much as royal members can be since they all end being european mutts) and spoke the language fluently, when D.Sebastião died without sucession, Felipe was indeed the legitimate heir to the Crown.

Attempts of uniting the two kingdoms under one crown had been tried several times before, one time it was very close of that happening under the lead of the House of Aviz (Portuguese) but prince Afonso (married with Isabel of Aragón) died (fall from the horse) before having children and history took a very different path.

Anyway, it's ridiculous to compare Portugal (oldest surviving independent kingdom of the Peninsula and old nationality with old consolidated borders) with Catalonia wich was never a kingdom, never a country, never ruled itself and as a political entity was never more than a county and most recently a semi-autonomous region. :033102st:

In other words, just like the Basques. Are the Basques à distinct ethnicity ? Undoubtedly. And so are the Catalans.

[Sebastianus Rex]

In other words, just like the Basques. Are the Basques à distinct ethnicity ? Undoubtedly. And so are the Catalans.

Will you support the fragmentation of France once the regions with muslim majorities will want to emanticipate and become Caliphates ? In the name of coherence an human rights I hope so, history and population changes are dynamic and new nations have the right to form and to exist. :thumb001:

[Cristiano viejo]

In other words, just like the Basques. Are the Basques à distinct ethnicity ? Undoubtedly. And so are the Catalans.

Basques did rule their own. Man, TAKE A FUCKIN BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :picard1:

[Egyptian]

So in which league Barca gonna play? PL or the Italian? I hope the Italian to add more competation.

[Cristiano viejo]

So in which league Barca gonna play? PL or the Italian? I hope the Italian to add more competation.

The president of Barcelona has said that in the Egyptian.

[Egyptian]

The president of Barcelona has said that in the Egyptian.

Good, Barca will gain experience when he plays with Al-Ahly who defeated Real Madrid 1-0.
nice goal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Wrsn0U9qU

[Cristiano viejo]

Good, Barca will gain experience when he plays with Al-Ahly who defeated Real Madrid 1-0.
nice goal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Wrsn0U9qU

They need it. But at least these losers had won the Intercontinental Cup sometimes. You fail.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

99 percent of aragon kings are of catalan male lineage

[Cristiano viejo]

99 percent of aragon kings are of catalan male lineage
Where, in your world of fantasy? you not even knew that they could not inherit the title of king, remember?

Go to give lessons of Spanish history to your black fellas of your ghetto.

[Graham]

Last poll commissioned.

62% participation
82% YES
16% NO

[Lluna Plena]

Last poll commissioned.

62% participation
82% YES
16% NO

One of those "YES" will be mine. :thumb001:

[Laberia]

Last poll commissioned.

62% participation
82% YES
16% NO

Roughly half of the total population is for yes. How many percent of the population have to participate that the referendum is valid?

[Melki]

Will you support the fragmentation of France once the regions with muslim majorities will want to emanticipate and become Caliphates ? In the name of coherence an human rights I hope so, history and population changes are dynamic and new nations have the right to form and to exist. :thumb001:

Come down to Earth. There are no regions with Muslim majorities. It's not because you saw plenty of times the same pictures and videos of street prayers in the same socially depraved district of Paris that all regions are similar.


Basques did rule their own. Man, TAKE A FUCKIN BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :picard1:

You didn't understand what I wrote. :picard1:
I said that the Basques never ruled themselves in the past, and form nonetheless a distinct ethnicity. And so are the Catalans. Portuguese are not different from Galicians, and have their own nation.

Your argument that a nation has no right to be if it never existed as an independent kingdom in the past is irrelevant. Look at little Slovenia, which recently won the European basketball championship. During the Hapsburg era, it was not even a province of Austria. There was a Carniola (Kranjska in Slovenian) but no Slovenia. Today no-one argues that they aren't an ethnicity, even though their language is not so different from Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian.

[Autrigón]

Last poll commissioned.

62% participation
82% YES
16% NOYes but statistics say that only the people who want independence is going (try) to vote. That means if you are sitting in a table of ten persons and one of them says that he wants to drink beer and the other nine want to drink water but don't say nothing, all of them are going to drink beer because they didn't give their opinion.

Some statistics say that there is a what is called "silence majority" who don't want independence and is about 54-60 %.

I really don't know, but both leader sides are doing things like stupids.

[Graham]

Roughly half of the total population is for yes. How many percent of the population have to participate that the referendum is valid?

Spanish wont take any vote as valid. They say any vote wont be valid in a million years, no matter what. Its very messy.

[Tietar]

stupid debate, of course Spain rejects the independence of Catalonia, all countries whose constitution forbids, reject independence

On Monday, a German court released a decision saying that the country’s constitution does not allow Bavaria to break away. There will be no referendum, the court said, because states are not allowed to leave Germany.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/749748/Germany-Bavaria-no-independence-referendum-Bayxit


If the spanish government allowed the referendum and independence they would go to jail

[Sebastianus Rex]

Come down to Earth. There are no regions with Muslim majorities. It's not because you saw plenty of times the same pictures and videos of street prayers in the same socially depraved district of Paris that all regions are similar.


You are the one who is living on denial, with all the information avaliable you still refuse to open your eyes out of sheer arrogance because you will never admit that you are wrong.

New births of non-european origin in France are already close to 40% (national average) and over 70% in Ile-de-France, + 50% in the southeast and the most prolific birth rates come from muslim communities. Within one generation France will become a Lebanon of gigantic proportions if nothing changes meanwhile.

http://www.fdesouche.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Graphique-drepanocytose_hd_chiffres_2015-1.jpg

[Laberia]

Come down to Earth. There are no regions with Muslim majorities. It's not because you saw plenty of times the same pictures and videos of street prayers in the same socially depraved district of Paris that all regions are similar.



You didn't understand what I wrote. :picard1:
I said that the Basques never ruled themselves in the past, and form nonetheless a distinct ethnicity. And so are the Catalans. Portuguese are not different from Galicians, and have their own nation.

Your argument that a nation has no right to be if it never existed as an independent kingdom in the past is irrelevant. Look at little Slovenia, which recently won the European basketball championship. During the Hapsburg era, it was not even a province of Austria. There was a Carniola (Kranjska in Slovenian) but no Slovenia. Today no-one argues that they aren't an ethnicity, even though their language is not so different from Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian.

Let's hope that this story have a different end from ex-Yugoslavia.

[Cristiano viejo]

You didn't understand what I wrote. :picard1:
I said that the Basques never ruled themselves in the past, and form nonetheless a distinct ethnicity. And so are the Catalans. Portuguese are not different from Galicians, and have their own nation.



I did understand perfectly, not my fault that the so-called expert in Basque history "because her grandmother" knows nothing really.

Basques rules themselves for centuries. Pufff, too large to post... first against other Iberians, moving until the current Basque territories, then more or less against Romans, then more or less against Visigoths, then more or less against Muslims, then forming part of the kingdom of Pamplona, then forming part of the kingdom of Navarra...

NOTHING TO DO WITH CATALANS.

Portuguese knew to win their own independence, with cojones, and 1000 years ago. They have developed their own. NOTHING TO DO WITH PATHETIC CATALANS, do you understand??

[Melki]

You are the one who is living on denial, with all the information avaliable you still refuse to open your eyes out of sheer arrogance because you will never admit that you are wrong.

New births of non-european origin in France are already close to 40% (national average) and over 70% in Ile-de-France, + 50% in the southeast and the most prolific birth rates come from muslim communities. Within one generation France will become a Lebanon of gigantic proportions if nothing changes meanwhile.

http://www.fdesouche.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Graphique-drepanocytose_hd_chiffres_2015-1.jpg

You, unless it was another TA member, showed me the same map six months ago, published by a cheesy source: AFDHPE? Never heard of it. I hope they don't get funded by our tax money. Countries like the USA, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Canada or the UK welcome more immigrants than France. Just look at at official statistics. Besides, 10% of our immigrant population appear to be sardine eaters like you, usually working as plumbers, massons or electricians. We have a (bad-tasted) joke in France: "What does a Portuguese girl in a university? - She mops the floor."

[Melki]

NOTHING TO DO WITH CATALANS.

Portuguese knew to win their own independence, with cojones, and 1000 years ago. They have developed their own. NOTHING TO DO WITH PATHETIC CATALANS, do you understand??

Cheap excuse. I'm convinced that if Portugal didn't break free from the Spanish crown in 1640 and still was a Spanish autonomous region in 2017, you Spanish nationalists would deny their right to self-determination because, you know, blah blah blah...

[Cristiano viejo]

Cheap excuse. I'm convinced that if Portugal didn't break free from the Spanish crown in 1640 and still was a Spanish autonomous region in 2017, you Spanish nationalists would deny their right to self-determination because, you know, blah blah blah...

Indeed :thumb001: If they would have wanted to continue being part of our country, I would deny their right to self-whatever.
Basques asked to join Castilla 800 years ago, my dear analphabet. Their names were not Koldo, Patxi or Ainara but Pedro, Juana or Sebastián.
Do you caught it?

[Melki]

Indeed :thumb001: If they would have wanted to continue being part of our country, I would deny their right to self-whatever.
Basques asked to join Castilla 800 years ago, my dear analphabet. Their names were not Koldo, Patxi or Ainara but Pedro, Juana or Sebastián.
Do you caught it?

So and what? Do you mean Basque language is a recent creation??? And better read El Quixote instead of watching the Spanish football league, you illiterate. Quijote's first opponent is a Biscayan henchman who hardly speaks Castilian.

[Cristiano viejo]

So and what? Do you mean Basque language is a recent creation??? And better read El Quixote instead of watching the Spanish football league, you illiterate. Quijote's first opponent is a Biscayan henchman who hardly speaks Castilian.

Mixing discussions... so typical in you.... :rolleyes:

And you better learn Basque instead of being obsessed with Spanish topics, you illiterate. So much claiming Euskera here, Euskera there and you only would know to say Gora Athletic... jajaj

[Damião de Góis]

Don't know what is the deal with this revolting sudaca on this thread...

[Cristiano viejo]

Don't know what is the deal with this revolting sudaca on this thread...

Spanish obsession, that is their reason.

[Melki]

Don't know what is the deal with this revolting sudaca on this thread...

Yes, hit below the belt with your fallacies and your calumnies, since you can't win a regular verbal sparring match. You don't know me, bitter Portos. Where did I expressly (or even implicites) state that I was South American?

[Melki]

Don't know what is the deal with this revolting sudaca on this thread...

Yes, hit below the belt with your fallacies and your calumnies, since you can't win a regular verbal sparring match. You don't know me, bitter Portos. Where did I expressly (or even implicites) state that I was South American?

[Damião de Góis]

Yes, hit below the belt with your fallacies and your calumnies, since you can't win a regular verbal sparring match. You don't know me, bitter Portos. Where did I expressly (or even implicites) state that I was South American?

Win? I'm not even debating with you, and when i do you don't usually reply to me.
I was refering to your constant remarks at Portugal's sovereignty and disgusting insults like: "What does a Portuguese girl in a university? - She mops the floor."

As for your "origins", here is all one needs to know:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81491-Which-Latin-American-country-you-hate-like-the-most/page39

For some reason i can't imagine Petalpusher bickering with latin american members about who's whiter (in spanish). That's something only a sudaca would do.

[Melki]

Win? I'm not even debating with you, and when i do you don't usually reply to me.
I was refering to your constant remarks at Portugal's sovereignty and disgusting insults like: "What does a Portuguese girl in a university? - She mops the floor."

As for your "origins", here is all one needs to know:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?81491-Which-Latin-American-country-you-hate-like-the-most/page39

For some reason i can't imagine Petalpusher bickering with latin american members about who's whiter (in spanish). That's something only a sudaca would do.

And...? That's your proof supposed to demonstrate that I'm a Latin-American? That I can speak Spanish???

You found my joke disgusting? Me too. My best friends at middle school were of Portuguese origin and sons of manual workers. I just wanted to show Seb Rex that Portuguese immigrants in France have not been privileged. They had to face, and sometimes still have to face discrimination and prejudices. But since they are Europeans, Catholics and look more like ethnic French, it has been much easier for them to integrate than the Maghrebans or the SSA.

[EuropeanVlachSon]

https://scontent.ftsr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22046898_10159386576280483_7554115006064035161_n.p ng?oh=b6797a29c324527a66a98eaf7fc3b6e2&oe=5A3A32E8

[HERK]

Catalunia ain't getting independence, blood has to be spilled for it.

[Albobalboa]

Catalunia ain't getting independence, blood has to be spilled for it.

Depends on how the independence vote goes. If it gets too little support is the only way it will die out. If they get enough percentage and declare independence there's nothing Spain can do.

[Cristiano viejo]

Depends on how the independence vote goes. If it gets too little support is the only way it will die out. If they get enough percentage and declare independence there's nothing Spain can do.

Tomorrow independentists will say what they want and dumbs like you will believe what they say.
As easy as that.

[HERK]

Tomorrow independentists will say what they want and dumbs like you will believe what they say.
As easy as that.

IS the spanish government doing anything to prevent the referendum or you will wait for them to declare independence and then acT?

[Graham]

IS the spanish government doing anything to prevent the referendum or you will wait for them to declare independence and then acT?

They have sent in police from outside Catalonia to close polling stations, closed websites, confiscated materials relating to vote. Basically all things to try and stop the votes.

[Óttar]

Depends on how the independence vote goes. If it gets too little support is the only way it will die out. If they get enough percentage and declare independence there's nothing Spain can do.
How can the vote even proceed if the government is busting up everything violently?

[Cristiano viejo]

IS the spanish government doing anything to prevent the referendum or you will wait for them to declare independence and then acT?

Guardia Civil is there taking the control of the organisms and Mossos de Esquadra ie the Catalan police is being forced to cooperate closing schools etc.

What happens is that the independentists have invaded some schools to pass there the night and so tomorrow they think "they will have the control of the schools to let that the people vote" (only independentists would vote, in any case). Such a joke :lol:

[Laberia]

They have sent in police from outside Catalonia to close polling stations, closed websites, confiscated materials relating to vote. Basically all things to try and stop the votes.

They have sent more than 16.000 police forces in Catalunya. They are using criminals to attack the population. It's a situation of occupation. Now, the last thing that they can do is to sent the Spanish Army on the streets of the cities of Catalunya and using tanks to attack civilians.

[Cristiano viejo]

They have sent more than 16.000 police forces in Catalunya, including the infamous Mossos de Esquadra. They are using criminals to attack the population. It's a situation of occupation. Now, the last thing that they can do is to sent the Spanish Army on the streets of the cities of Catalunya and using tanks to attack civilians.

You are really stupid, retarded and ignorant :lol:

-the "infamous Mossos de Esquadra" is the Catalan police, piece of retarded, and his higher authority, Josep Lluís Trapero (who is not ethnically Catalan by the way) is super-independentist :jump0000::jump0000::jump0000:

-nobody is attacking the population. THE OPPOSITE!! IT HAVE BEEN the separatists who have attacked normal people and even the police.

-10.000, not 16.000.

Check your sources before saying stupidities, infamous Tosk :lol:

[Cristiano viejo]

Separatists have parked a remolcador in the door of one of the schools to avoid that the police intervenes to avoid that people vote :lol:
Is this a serious referendum?? :lol:

http://e00-elmundo.uecdn.es/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2017/10/01/15068288475075.jpg

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/01/59d0502d268e3e802e8b461a.html

Guardia Civil already has blocked the majority of the places to vote and all the electronic media have been already blocked too
http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-cerco-judicial-asfixia-planes-independentistas-201710010203_noticia.html

Just waiting to tomorrow to see how many votes the separatists say they have achieved :lol:

[Laberia]

You are really stupid, retarded and ignorant :lol:

-the "infamous Mossos de Esquadra" is the Catalan police, piece of retarded, and his higher authority, Josep Lluís Trapero (who is not ethnically Catalan by the way) is super-independentist :jump0000::jump0000::jump0000:

-nobody is attacking the population. THE OPPOSITE!! IT HAVE BEEN the separatists who have attacked normal people and even the police.

-10.000, not 16.000.

Check your sources before saying stupidities, infamous Tosk :lol:


At a polling station in Catalonia shooting occurred, there are victims

magictr | September 30, 2017 | News | 0 Comments

2017-09-30 19:11

At a polling station in Catalonia shooting occurred, there are victims
Manly the mayor called the incident a “fascist attack”.

https://sherbrooktimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/20b930779b4be904991f0dff7b8b0d3d.jpg

At a polling station in Catalonia, where the referendum will take place tomorrow, 30 September, unknown persons opened fire from a pneumatic gun and wounded at least 4 people.

It is reported naiz and publishes a photo of one of the victims, reports Rus.Media.

The incident took place at one of the schools in the city Manlu. Victims injured in the chest and neck.

First, the attacker wounded three people and then shot another who responded to the noise. Three of the wounded are members of the Committee for the defense of the referendum. They filed a complaint with the police Generalthat (government of Catalonia).

https://sherbrooktimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/6357a356e31b339cf4425fa0b1a7eac6.jpg

https://sherbrooktimes.com/at-a-polling-station-in-catalonia-shooting-occurred-there-are-victims/10820

[Cristiano viejo]

And who was tha attacker... the infamous Mossos de Esquadra? hahahaha
you made me laugh like a crazy, bastard ignorant... :lol:

[Laberia]

And who was tha attacker... the infamous Mossos de Esquadra? hahahaha
you made me laugh like a crazy, bastard ignorant... :lol:


Meanwhile, as a sign of the growing hostility and Madrid's intentions to do all that is necessary to block a vote, Bloomberg notes that Spain has hired cruise liners specifically to mount a massive force of 16,000 police in a Catalan port.

Spain has discreetly hired ferries to be moored in the Port of Barcelona as temporary housing for possibly thousands of police specially deployed to keep order in rebel Catalonia and help suppress an illegal independence referendum.

The country’s interior ministry asked Catalan port authorities to provide a berth for one ship until Oct. 3 -- two days after the planned vote -- saying it was a matter of state, a spokeswoman for the port said by phone Wednesday. The vessel, known as “Rhapsody,” docked in the city about 9:30 a.m. Thursday, she said.

The aim is to amass more than 16,000 riot police and other security officers by the Oct. 1 referendum, El Correo newspaper reported on its website.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-21/spanish-police-mount-force-16000-catalan-port-raid-government-offices-tensions-mount

[Cristiano viejo]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-21/spanish-police-mount-force-16000-catalan-port-raid-government-offices-tensions-mount

10.000... :coffee:

http://www.antena3.com/noticias/espana/10000-agentes-de-la-policia-nacional-y-la-guardia-civil-a-la-espera-en-el-puerto-de-barcelona_2017093059cfa2940cf2136979903f98.html

I would wish they were 100.000 :lol: