To a European CDC?

[The Lawspeaker]

At the moment the relatively small (face it) continent of Europe is host to dozens of health protection agencies while diseases have a nasty habit: they ignore borders. And particularly on a continent that barely has them and in a world that is getting more globalised by the day.

We may not like it but even if we kick out every bloody immigrant tourists, travellers, modes of transportation and imported goods (whether souvenirs or commercial goods) will bring in germs and diseases.

The thing is how are we going to deal with it with our numerous independent agencies that really look beyond their own border. The answer can be found in America in the American CDC that ought to protect all states from disease- and yes it doesn't always work (just look at West Nile) but no system is watertight (unfortunately).

We in Europe now have the ECDC (http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/Pages/home.aspx), the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (since 2004) which is based in Stockholm, Sweden.
But the thing is: how we are going to take it all seriously if we still have the myriad of other organisations ? Could it not be possible to exactly copy the American idea and make it work for us?

There should be a European project. Not one like Lisbon and that kind of nonsense but on making Europe safer for us all. Any ideas on what diseases ought to be dealt with first ?

[Eldritch]

Well I think it's pretty obvious that the spread of HIV into Europe from Afreeka needs to be better curtailed.

And the best way to do that, well ...

[The Lawspeaker]

Well I think it's pretty obvious that the spread of HIV into Europe from Afreeka needs to be better curtailed.

And the best way to do that, well ...
Should be by kicking them out. But there is more then HIV alone. I am talking rabies here, hepatitis, Lyme, measles, etc...

I am also talking about micro-organisms, plants and animal species that get carried into Europe by cars and ships that can harm the environment and spread diseases.

Take for instance rabies: just look at the map and we see how potentially catastrophic the situation is:

http://www.cvi.wur.nl/NR/rdonlyres/477B1215-48D0-4AF9-ABB4-448803162E68/50843/figuur2VerspreidingEuropa2.jpg
Source: Dutch Central Veterinarian Institute (http://www.cvi.wur.nl/NL/onderzoek/dierziekten/rabies/)

[Eldritch]

Or better yet not letting them in in the first place.

And yep, hepatitis is another bad one, since it has no cure.

[The Lawspeaker]

Or better yet not letting them in in the first place.

And yep, hepatitis is another bad one, since it has no cure.
Yes. And that's just one of the diseases that is also still going on in Eastern Europe so we aren't done yet. It should be the policy in Europe to either curtail it.. or eradicate it.

For instance hepatitis can be practically eradicated by isolating people, kicking out and stopping immigrants, keeping a closer tap on food preparation and our water quality etc. I once read that one could actually eradicate rabies in one to two generations (that is in the U.S.A) if we really wanted to so it should be possible here too.

And then you have Lyme disease, you have flu, you have all sorts of nasty viruses outside Europe that can still be brought in via imported goods and travellers (can be returning tourists, business travellers etc)

And the only way in which we can tackle those is together. Preferably even together with the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia.

[Groenewolf]

Such an organization would of course be logical in a certain way considering the free traffic of persons within the EU. But tropical diseases is mostly a matter of proper measures at the entry gates of EU. You said for combating those diseases before national reserves are being tapped. But maybe it should be in a different way, namely as a backup plan in case national plans are insufficient or and as advisory board for those national plans, or if it is a Euro-wide plague. However I am bit reluctant to hand over more power to the EU then it already has.

[The Lawspeaker]

Such an organization would of course be logical in a certain way considering the free traffic of persons within the EU. But tropical diseases is mostly a matter of proper measures at the entry gates of EU. You said for combating those diseases before national reserves are being tapped. But maybe it should be in a different way, namely as a backup plan in case national plans are insufficient or and as advisory board for those national plans, or if it is a Euro-wide plague. However I am bit reluctant to hand over more power to the EU then it already has.
I understand that as I have the same feeling towards the EU but such epidemics are just too big a size for the national organisations...

And yes- it is also necessary because of the free traffic of persons (and of goods.. don't underestimate the potential for disease when it comes to goods that can be infected with just about anything) and since the EU has a lot of entry points and no effective borders and border controls behind them there has to be an effective organisation and an effective management of resources in order to combat a disease that enters Europe (and it will be nearly impossible of blocking it's entry into the EU in our globalised world. You know that ships carry invading animal species and plant species as well as goods and those can bring in diseases just as well).

It would have to be an effective control board in order to

curtail diseases that are already here.
constantly monitor diseases in/outside Europe.
set up a quarantine system right away when anywhere in the world a disease breaks out.
set up and maintain a (rigid) quarantine system in place for all imported animals.
set rigid regulations for visiting foreigners (they have to be checked for certain diseases in their home-country before applying for a tourist/business/study visa (blocking out immigrants anyways) and banning travellers with certain diseases from visiting the EU (and other countries that are non-members but decide to be signatories).


Within Europe itself would be a good idea to combat infectious diseases that are still here and to target specific zoonosis like rabies (still present in Germany, parts of France and all over Eastern Europe and the Balkans and making a come back as we speak) or Lyme (also here in the Netherlands).

So for those infectious diseases still present we do need a Europe-wide monitoring, prevention and control/eradication program because we may all be independent countries: our continent is actually rather small.

I think that the ideas of European unification (whether right or wrong) might just as well be used in a practical way: making Europe a safer place for all of us and Europe could set a task to eradicate certain diseases by 2030-2050.

[poiuytrewq0987]

We'd get complaints that Western Europe is footing the bill to clear Eastern Europe of diseases, stuff like that so no.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Should be by kicking them out. But there is more then HIV alone. I am talking rabies here, hepatitis, Lyme, measles, etc...

I am also talking about micro-organisms, plants and animal species that get carried into Europe by cars and ships that can harm the environment and spread diseases.

Take for instance rabies: just look at the map and we see how potentially catastrophic the situation is:

http://www.cvi.wur.nl/NR/rdonlyres/477B1215-48D0-4AF9-ABB4-448803162E68/50843/figuur2VerspreidingEuropa2.jpg
Source: Dutch Central Veterinarian Institute (http://www.cvi.wur.nl/NL/onderzoek/dierziekten/rabies/)

I'm pretty sure that the data that is on the map is wrong because Estonia is a Nordic country and thus it's impossible for rabies to be common in Estonia.

[The Lawspeaker]

We'd get complaints that Western Europe is footing the bill to clear Eastern Europe of diseases, stuff like that so no.
Nah. It would be for all our sake to clear it all out and rid Europe of such illnesses.

[Eldritch]

We'd get complaints that Western Europe is footing the bill to clear Eastern Europe of diseases, stuff like that so no.

Wouldn't it be better to go ahead with it anyway, and then tell them STFU n00b?

[The Lawspeaker]

I am sorry for the gravedigging but I was whether there are Europeans that are still interested in the idea and are willing to throw in their 2 pence, centimes, øre, pfennig, centen etc.

Even if we are against the EU I still think that we should arrange certain things communally and one major thread to Europe (brought in not just by immigrants or even tourists or by trade but also by zoonoses) is disease.

I think that infectious diseases (whether zoonoses is those brought in by people) are a problem that confronts us all as it doesn't stop with borders: no matter how strong the borders were it didn't stop the Asian Flu of 1957-58 or the Hong Kong Flu of 1968-1969 so maybe a Europe-wide monitoring, research and coordination institute is needed (modeled on the American CDC) and it already exists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Centre_for_Disease_Prevention_and_Control ) and it only needs to be reformed.

The ECDC should also be involved in the issues regarding (illegal) migration and it's effects on illnesses throughout Europe and that's where the two-tier migration system that I have proposed on several occasions come in as well (committed a crime ? found infected with an illness after mandatory testing both in your own country and at a European mission in your own country ? Then your case doesn't need to be passed on to a national (German, Dutch, French etc.) immigration service but you're banned from the EC as a whole).

This should stop at least some of the influx while we clear our countries hunting down illegal immigrants, tossing them out and then having the legal immigrants submit to tests as well.

Another important job for the ECDC would be to monitor the effects of invasive species on public health and if necessary work with a national infrastructure and resources managing board in order to curtail the damage.

Yet another job would be to come up with a Europe-wide vaccination program which should serve to coordinate the various national vaccination programs and where necessary to set a common schedule in order to eradicate as many diseases (even down to studying the possibility of coming up with vaccines against various venereal diseases) as possible from Europe (vaccination should still be optional. However I do believe that, when it comes to the densely populated Netherlands, people that do not vaccinate their children should see their kids refused admission into a public school).

The ECDC should also lead the way in looking for a cure/ vaccinations against zoonoses (http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/11/1333&type=HTML) such as Lyme borreliosis which is increasingly becoming a real nuisance in Western Europe (including the Netherlands) - this could be done together with research facilities in universities. And where possible the zoonoses itself (such as for instance rabies) should be scheduled for complete and utter eradication.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I also believe having a European CDC is very crucial for the well-being of the continent. There are so many infectious diseases that are hard to get rid of. There are also always new diseases that are created through mutations. They make it harder to eliminate them because we have to concoct new vaccines to combat them since they may or may not be immune to the preexisting vaccines. That takes time and if we had resources pooled into one place (in both money and manpower) then we could cut down the time needed to concoct new vaccines by a lot.

There is also the issue of preexisting diseases that are still widespread in Eastern Europe. They were somewhat contained during the Communist period but the social upheavals after '91 made it harder to combat them since less resources are allocated to combat diseases and to research new defenses against them. We don't really have this problem in former Yugoslavia but elsewhere in Eastern Europe it's pretty bad with rabies and HIV.

[Albion]

Should be by kicking them out. But there is more then HIV alone. I am talking rabies here, hepatitis, Lyme, measles, etc...

I am also talking about micro-organisms, plants and animal species that get carried into Europe by cars and ships that can harm the environment and spread diseases.

Take for instance rabies: just look at the map and we see how potentially catastrophic the situation is:

http://www.cvi.wur.nl/NR/rdonlyres/477B1215-48D0-4AF9-ABB4-448803162E68/50843/figuur2VerspreidingEuropa2.jpg
Source: Dutch Central Veterinarian Institute (http://www.cvi.wur.nl/NL/onderzoek/dierziekten/rabies/)

In Britain there was a massive attempt to wipe out rabies in the 50s and it worked, now its only found in a few bats which fly in from the continent.
This progress it at risk if we loosen our borders though, currently quarantine for animals is 6 months but it's going to be reduced to 1 month soon (which is enough I think). Control over the import of animals the migration of disease infected humans is very important and we must keep these islands free from as many of the more serious diseases as we can.

Eastern Europe needs to get its act together and shoot a lot of those rabid stray dogs.

Sadly though the laws regarding plants seem to be more relaxed, many plant diseases imported with organic materials have arrived from Europe and America and affect our agriculture and native species. On this I believe that all we need to look at Australia's example and try to limit imports of organic matter whilst attempting to sterilise or test imported organic produce for pathogens.

People from outside of the EU 15 should require a health check before being allowed into these countries and they should put pressure onto neighbouring states to get their act together regarding diseases spread amongst plants and animals.


For instance hepatitis can be practically eradicated by isolating people, kicking out and stopping immigrants, keeping a closer tap on food preparation and our water quality etc. I once read that one could actually eradicate rabies in one to two generations (that is in the U.S.A) if we really wanted to so it should be possible here too.

Isolation of infected people is a good policy, a lot of them cannot be trusted and there's even cases where people with aids have infected other people on purpose.
The problem is that immigrants from outside of Europe will always bring all their diseases with them, so we must put in place health checks. The problem is that we risk wrapping ourselves in cotton wool a bit here and stunting the development of a degree of natural immunity to diseases, so vaccinations should be put in place.


I think that the ideas of European unification (whether right or wrong) might just as well be used in a practical way: making Europe a safer place for all of us and Europe could set a task to eradicate certain diseases by 2030-2050.

A point that concerns me is that Europe is physically linked to Asia and close to North Africa. Diseases will always get in through there.

We must also work to wipe out the more serious diseases from the world completely or risk them arriving in Europe again one day. Once AIDS is wiped out in Europe then we must go to Africa and countries where it is prevalent and isolate the people. Think leper colonies. Of course we'll maintain good conditions for the people there though.