Europe should become more self-sufficient

[The Lawspeaker]

Any ideas on how to move businesses back to Europe and on how to grow/produce products here that we are now importing from abroad ? And on how to ween ourselves off oil?

I'll come with my ideas tomorrow when I am feeling fresher. :)

[The Lawspeaker]

O.K.. we somehow need to make sure that we can ween ourselves off oil by completely overhauling our energy system and spending some serious money in research and in converting our transport system (every railway line for instance has to be powered by electric overhead wiring or third rail) from imported fuels to hydrogen and electricity and we ought to do some serious research and spending into doing renewable energy. We have some areas in Europe (like Norway) that are real powerhouses and we should definitely to unify our grid system and to link those areas to less fortunate areas.

Nuclear energy is nice but uranium too needs to be imported although we do have it here in certain quantities but we shouldn't bet it all on that. Solar, wind, tides, hydro-energy and some nuclear (and maybe nuclear fission in the future) should make us at least less dependent. We can also burn coal etc in a more much efficient and cleaner way.

What Europe also should do is to grow some products for biofuel but for the rest should our agriculture be based on producing here what we need. We would need to import less rice if we can grow it in Southern Europe, with a bit of luck we could grow some subtropical products along the Med as well as well as in greenhouses (maybe some tropical products as well and if you combine greenhouses with urban buildings we can maybe use that space twice). We luckily can grow most of our food so we could import less there as well. We just need to use our space and geography more cleverly.

What Europe should do is also recycle as much as possible. Not to "save the environment" but to save our (economic) skin. If we recycle more we need to import less.

[Debaser11]

I think Europe's best resource has always been its brains. There are certain things that Europe needs to trade for and there is no getting around this. Europe should just stop feeling guilty for having wealth (which they produce) that other countries do not have which allows them to have trade leverage over countries like say...Nigeria.

[Austin]

There is enough oil on the planet for hundreds of years of continuous human growth. It only needs to be made cheaper that is all.

Current green technology constitutes a mild failure at best in respect to modern energy needs as well as future ones. In all the beloved 'green' nations oil/natural gas still makeup the main sources of energy by far. Natural resources are still cheaper and more efficient to procure/produce over green energy or they wouldn't continue to exist in a max-profit global system as we live in today.

[Vasconcelos]

There is enough oil on the planet for hundreds of years of continuous human growth. It only needs to be made cheaper that is all.

Where did you get this information from, I hear the very opposite everyday.

[Curtis24]

Lower your wages, give up benefits, work 40 hour weeks, and understand many of you will have to work labor/manufacturing jobs that don't require a degree.

[Debaser11]

The whole "everyone needs a degree thing" is a sham if you care about preservation.

[Curtis24]

nvm edit later.

[The Lawspeaker]

This is perhaps something that should best be left to Europeans. Americans etc don't know our geography or our climate. I am not talking about the hyper-capitalistic American non-sense that Curtis immediately started to spout. I am talking about ways in which Europe could conserve valuable resources and about ways in which Europe should grow as much as possible of what it needs thus limiting it's import.

That's a vital difference there. Basically, let me try to explain it to you Americans, that are used to just bombing the world flat looking for the oil you need:

I am not talking about invading some place and nicking it's oil. No I am talking about exploring the European part of the Atlantic for oil and weening ourselves off it as soon as possible. I am talking about no longer buying American grain but growing it here in Europe. In let's say places like Southern Italy or spreading it's production over all of Europe so more farmers get work and we get to diversify our agriculture and less work goes to America.

The same goes for all sorts of products we are now importing from the Third World: if we can do it ourselves we will do it ourselves. And yes it will be slightly more expensive but there have been reports indicating that wage costs make up only 6 percent of the actual price. So it wouldn't actually have to rise in price. A couple of a days I watced a Dutch current affairs program and I noticed that hazel (which is used in Europe in for instance chocolate products) coming in from Turkey is picked using child labour. I am appaled not because they use child labour but because we can grow the same stuff in Greece, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Italy.

We don't need to import it at all. If we produce such stuff here in Europe and use more mechanized equipment prices will continue to be low and even if we give all workers a fair wage prices will continue to be low. The farmer is not the problem, the corrupt middleman is. And they are the chaps that should be dealt with: collectivisation. We have been fucked over long enough.

Wood. We now import it from South-East Asia and Brazil. I don't get it. We could simply use different kinds of wood in a lot of products and grow our own production forests here in Europe.

And yes: as many people as possible should have degrees so we don't need to hire Pakistani's and Indians anymore but then we can content with the local call-center girl guiding you through your computer trouble.

And yes: Europe should strive to get a couple of it's own Silicon Valley's and set up a real industry competing with the United States. There should be a European competitor for Microsoft (I am not talking Linux here but a commercial one) and all European governments should abandon Windows and move to European programs.
So we are going to do our own stuff (we will continue to import some foreign products of course but never on the scale as we do now) and compete with other places on a more equal footing: less dependent on abroad.

[kaliyuga]

You should call your policy autarky and get a job at the Dutch Economics Ministry.

[The Lawspeaker]

You should call your policy autarky and get a job at the Dutch Economics Ministry.
It's not complete autarky, mate but it's indeed limiting import and strengthening our own position. But I recognize that we are too small as a country and it can only be done Europe-wide.:thumb001:

[kaliyuga]

It's anti-global so the powers that be would nix it.

The Right needs political power before any change for the better can be made. I don't see it coming from the ballot box however. Here in the Uk you will soon see the people on the streets as in France - the cuts mean a million people will be out of work. Way I see it the Right cannot leave it to the trade unions and the Left to mobilise. The Right has to be on the streets as well. The next decade is going to be real tough in England. That means our people need to come to us for leadership. It is a real opportunity.

[Murphy]

It's anti-global so the powers that be would nix it.

The Right needs political power before any change for the better can be made. I don't see it coming from the ballot box however. Here in the Uk you will soon see the people on the streets as in France - the cuts mean a million people will be out of work. Way I see it the Right cannot leave it to the trade unions and the Left to mobilise. The Right has to be on the streets as well. The next decade is going to be real tough in England. That means our people need to come to us for leadership. It is a real opportunity.

And what is "The Right"?

[The Lawspeaker]

And what is "The Right"?
Instead of trolling. Say something useful for once. Ideas, Papist, ideas.

[Fortis in Arduis]

I think that we are back to co-operative economics again.

I believe that this idea is extemely popular in America.

Kids are even taught it at school. Amazing.

[Murphy]

Instead of trolling. Say something useful for once. Ideas, Papist, ideas.

How on God's earth was that trolling? It was a serious question. He keeps speaking about The Right.. well I want to fucking know what The Right means to him.

So shut up Tristan and fuck off.

[kaliyuga]

And what is "The Right"?

The Right is right. It is dexterous rather than sinister. The Left is for wiping your backside with.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think that we are back to co-operative economics again.

I believe that this idea is extemely popular in America.

Kids are even taught it at school. Amazing.
Hmm. Could you put in some ideas please ?

[kaliyuga]

How on God's earth was that trolling? It was a serious question. He keeps speaking about The Right.. well I want to fucking know what The Right means to him.

So shut up Tristan and fuck off.

Easy boy, you're coming across like a big girl's blouse. No need to get hysterical.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Hmm. Could you put in some ideas please ?

Yeah ok.

Start by offering interest free loans to people in retail and agriculture who want to co-operativise the companies they work for.

The rest will follow.

[Murphy]

The Right is right. It is dexterous rather than sinister. The Left is for wiping your backside with.

Well, that helps :rolleyes:.. It seems you're just another fool who buys into what the media feeds them.


Easy boy, you're coming across like a big girl's blouse. No need to get hysterical.

Ha.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah ok.

Start by offering interest free loans to people in retail and agriculture who want to co-operativise the companies they work for.

The rest will follow.
That would be a nice start. It could lead to cooperative banking. Hell that would be nice Catholic idea actually since usury is sinful (something that even I can partially agree with. In my eyes a little bit of usury (a minor percentage), one has to eat after all) is no sin.. big usury (like the banks do) is.

It should not be banned by law but it should be taught to children as wrong and sinful: why go to that bank over there ? They are usurers: go to that bank instead.

Maybe we should pick up some nice ideas from Islamic banking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking#Principles) (yes you heard it -let's look at it's ideas without reservations) and hundi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala) as well.
and come with European terms and ideas based on it ans dump American-Jewish banking over the course of a few decades and just refer to it as the fair bank-system and let the rules be dictated by means of statutes and actual laws instead. And we can always tweak it a bit in order to make it suit our ideas and conventions.

It wouldn't of course go for all banks but we can slowly phase out the present system.

[Curtis24]

don't you guys see that your high lifestyle is directly related to cheap immigrant labor?

[The Lawspeaker]

don't you guys see that your high lifestyle is directly related to cheap immigrant labor?
That's non-sense and you know it too. Our lifestyle was rather good in the early 1960s and we did it all ourselves.

Take your defence of slave labour and the forceful unemployment and replacement of the European worker somewhere else. To America for instance where the outsourcing is fucking up the country: Detroit anyone ?

[Ibericus]

don't you guys see that your high lifestyle is directly related to cheap immigrant labor?
Japan, South Korea...Are you saying these countries don't have high lifestyle ?

[Wyn]

I hold a lot of views that would probably be considered socialist by people here. And offline.

[Austin]

Where did you get this information from, I hear the very opposite everyday.


It is no coincidence that the global oil oligarchs/interests allow these nonsensical 'peak oil' stories to exist.

They absolutely love it. It creates a superficial notion that oil is scarce and allows the oligarchs/cartels to charge insanely high prices so when they do the world screams and they throw some imbecilic 'peak oil' environmentalist pawn out to declare to the public that "oil is running out so don't blame us but instead raise taxes on your populaces".

This allows the global plutocrats to do several things in one. The cartels/oligarchs get to keep insane prices on oil (a very common resource with numerous nations having absolutely massive reserves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves) whilst at the same time their government friends (who they own) get to raise/impose draconian taxes/penalties on all manner of things related to the consumption of oil which in the end amounts to everything.

[Bloodeagle]

I think many of the answers that you seek could be achieved through the practice of permaculture in agriculture!
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/perma.html

Bw7mQZHfFVE
OFjFG24BeX8

[Curtis24]

That's non-sense and you know it too. Our lifestyle was rather good in the early 1960s and we did it all ourselves.


Right, because you had large numbers of white Europeans willing to work blue-collar jobs. This is, less and less, the case. Everybody wants a degree, everyone wants some specialized type of job that is high status. With benefits and vacation time. Well, everyone can have that, but you need foreigners to work the menial jobs.

If Europe is to become self-sufficient, most of the kids now in college will have to drop out and go work in the factories. That will never happen. And even if it did, birthrates are so low that in 10-20 years, you'd still need to start asking the immigrants to come over again.

[The Lawspeaker]

Right, because you had large numbers of white Europeans willing to work blue-collar jobs. This is, less and less, the case. Everybody wants a degree, everyone wants some specialized type of job that is high status. With benefits and vacation time. Well, everyone can have that, but you need foreigners to work the menial jobs.

If Europe is to become self-sufficient, most of the kids now in college will have to drop out and go work in the factories. That will never happen. And even if it did, birthrates are so low that in 10-20 years, you'd still need to start asking the immigrants to come over again.
Do us all a favour, Yank. If you don't know how Europe works (and you clearly don't) stay out and keep your opinions to yourself.
American free market ideas have led us exactly to where we are today: at the brink of collapse.

Re-read the title and understand that Europe means Europe. The Old World, Europe. Not the United States but EUROPE. American ideas don't work here, never did and never will. Because they don't even work in America itself.

[kaliyuga]

Do us all a favour, Yank. If you don't know how Europe works (and you clearly don't) stay out and keep your opinions to yourself.
American free market ideas have led us exactly to where we are today: at the brink of collapse.

Re-read the title and understand that Europe means Europe. The Old World, Europe. Not the United States but EUROPE. American ideas don't work here, never did and never will. Because they don't even work in America itself.

Although we have to thank the American free market for one thing. Because some fat fuck banker wanted a second yacht and invented 'sub-prime' the sleeping peoples of Europe take to the streets and the cesspool of European unculture is stirred.

[Bloodeagle]

Right, because you had large numbers of white Europeans willing to work blue-collar jobs. This is, less and less, the case. Everybody wants a degree, everyone wants some specialized type of job that is high status. With benefits and vacation time. Well, everyone can have that, but you need foreigners to work the menial jobs.

If Europe is to become self-sufficient, most of the kids now in college will have to drop out and go work in the factories. That will never happen. And even if it did, birthrates are so low that in 10-20 years, you'd still need to start asking the immigrants to come over again.
"people who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Why not contribute something positive to this thread? :rolleyes:

[Murphy]

I fail to see where Curtis is wrong in his analysis in the needs of Europe to become self-sufficient. Everything he said looks pretty spot on for the most part. Whilst I believe that immigrant-work in Europe today is grossly over-estimated, Europeans are turning their backs on important trades etcetera. Far too many feel entitled to a Higher Education.. seriously, what's the point in having a nation of astrophysicists if the farmers or the plumbers aren't there to sustain them?

But the current economic model its self is also flawed. No way around that.

[kaliyuga]

I fail to see where Curtis is wrong in his analysis in the needs of Europe to become self-sufficient. Everything he said looks pretty spot on for the most part. Whilst I believe that immigrant-work in Europe today is grossly over-estimated, Europeans are turning their backs on important trades etcetera. Far too many feel entitled to a Higher Education.. seriously, what's the point in having a nation of astrophysicists if the farmers or the plumbers aren't there to sustain them?

But the current economic model its self is also flawed. No way around that.

Thank you, John Maynard Keynes.

[The Lawspeaker]

I fail to see where Curtis is wrong in his analysis in the needs of Europe to become self-sufficient. Everything he said looks pretty spot on for the most part. Whilst I believe that immigrant-work in Europe today is grossly over-estimated, Europeans are turning their backs on important trades etcetera. Far too many feel entitled to a Higher Education.. seriously, what's the point in having a nation of astrophysicists if the farmers or the plumbers aren't there to sustain them?
Well. Here is a novel idea: what if you combine jobs. If it would be made attractive for you to grow your own ? Especially if it's already your hobby. You can get yourself a allotment garden and grow food and sell that. Hell.. in cities with modern office/apartment blocks they could even use hallways to grow food which would actually also make the place look nicer and turn the hallway into a communal area where you can meet your peers after work and do some gardening if you want too. :)

And what if you also learn such things like plumbing at school as part of the curriculum ? And suppose that the majority of the people would be living in rural areas again as jobs would be decentralised one can have a similar kind of service in rural villages like what we had in children's homes and hospitals here ("Technische Dienst"): a maintenance service :)

But not everyone is cut out to be an engineer anyways nor does everybody want to be on school for ever so we will never really run out of those people. The "we will run out of them"- nonsense is just used as a scare tactic in order to bring in more immigrants. ;)



But the current economic model its self is also flawed. No way around that.
Exactly. It should be more communal. More based on humanity, on your local community.

[Murphy]

Thank you, John Maynard Keynes.

Hardly. Keynes is border-line Communist in my eyes.

[Murphy]

Exactly. It should be more communal. More based on humanity, on your local community.

Completely agreed. It should also be noted that the economy must not be regulated by the government as it gives too much authority to the state. It should be regulated by the philosophy of the community. The religion of the community.

Catholicism.

;).

[RoyBatty]

Any ideas on how to move businesses back to Europe and on how to grow/produce products here that we are now importing from abroad ? And on how to ween ourselves off oil?

I'll come with my ideas tomorrow when I am feeling fresher. :)

Yes.

1 - Resign from the EU.
2 - Slap massive import duties on ALL imported goods from countries outside Europe.
3 - Get rid of the current political classes
4 - Clamp down on bankers
5 - Penalise Corporations who do business in our countries but who outsource their manufacturing and service departments outside Europe.

6 - We don't "wean ourselves off oil" unless we want to live in the dark and ride horses.

[The Lawspeaker]

Completely agreed. It should also be noted that the economy must not be regulated by the big companies as it gives too much authority to the bigwigs. It should be regulated by the philosophy of the community and on a local scale.

Citizenship and kinship.

.
Fixed, buddy, fixed :)

[Murphy]

Fixed, buddy, fixed :)

You should pick up Belloc's The Crisis of Civilisation.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes.


6 - We don't "wean ourselves off oil" unless we want to live in the dark and ride horses.
I agree on every little point except for this one: that bloody oil is keeping us a slave of the muzzies and makes sure that we cannot become independent.
So.. let's find a replacement instead and look inward.

[The Lawspeaker]

You should pick up Belloc's The Crisis of Civilisation.
Maybe. Is there an E-book online or should I order it at the bookshop ?

[Wyn]

what if you combine jobs. If it would be made attractive for you to grow your own ? Especially if it's already your hobby.


I strongly agree with this and think it's actually important in the context of self-reliance. When I "settle down" in the long term I'll do my best to find a place with fertile land and grow as much of my own food as resources allow. More people really should do this imo. Self-sufficiency and strong, literal connections to "the land" are severely lacking.

[julie]

Any ideas on how to move businesses back to Europe and on how to grow/produce products here that we are now importing from abroad ? And on how to ween ourselves off oil?

I'll come with my ideas tomorrow when I am feeling fresher. :)

not to sound like a smart mouth but don't look at America as any example it amazes me how dependent we still are on oil and lots more from other countries when we really shouldn't be!
Hell we have our own oil and don't use it..lol

[julie]

I am a true American i love my country but its idiots from America who make this whole country look bad!Tristain i agree with u totally and american idiots are not worth trying to explain anything too!Remember this American southern saying "YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[julie]

sound to me like an moron that voted for Obama

[Fortis in Arduis]

European states are being engineered towards inter-dependency.

That is one of the aims of the European Union and it is dangerously inefficient and dysgenic and benefits only the plutocracy.

Why should France and the UK sell each other potatoes?

[kaliyuga]

European states are being engineered towards inter-dependency.

That is one of the aims of the European Union and it is dangerously inefficient and dysgenic and benefits only the plutocracy.

Why should France and the UK sell each other potatoes?

Why do British supermarkets buy beans from Kenya?

[The Lawspeaker]

Why should France and the UK sell each other potatoes?
Why they are pretty much able to grow it themselves.



Why do British supermarkets buy beans from Kenya?
While beans can be grown in England... hell.. they can be grown in your backyard.

[Crossbow]

Why do British supermarkets buy beans from Kenya?

The fair-trade bussiness (in cooperation with NGO's perhaps) accounts for this too, they want to economically emancipate the poor third world farmer, and flood us with African beans, Asian rice, Pacific sago etc. thus replacing our domestics. Multiculturalism on alimentation level.

[Curtis24]

Do us all a favour, Yank. If you don't know how Europe works (and you clearly don't) stay out and keep your opinions to yourself.
American free market ideas have led us exactly to where we are today: at the brink of collapse.

Re-read the title and understand that Europe means Europe. The Old World, Europe. Not the United States but EUROPE. American ideas don't work here, never did and never will. Because they don't even work in America itself.

Explain to me then how Europe does work. Explain to me why you guys are able to all pick your jobs, not even have to work 40 hours a week, and get vacations.

Truth is, U.S. and Europe aren't that different.

[The Lawspeaker]

Explain to me then how Europe does work. Explain to me why you guys are able to all pick your jobs, not even have to work 40 hours a week, and get vacations.
We just can. And we all pay taxes and assist each other. That's something that Americans have never ever heard off. It's called solidarity.



Truth is, U.S. and Europe aren't that different.
Much more then you can possibly imagine. And I think that everyone that wants to adopt the American system should be kicked out to America so hard that that traitor can feel a mark on his arse for years because those people that are breaking down our hard-earned Rhineland model a.k.Rhenish capitalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine_Capitalism) a are nothing but traitors that bring in immigrants for cheap labour.

If it wasn't for immigration we wouldn't have any social problems and as a matter of fact: poverty was virtually eradicated in Western Europe by the late 1960s (certain parts of Britain not included). None whatsoever. And the EU? Yes we need to break it down and start over but the EU isn't much more democratic then the US is: there they let you vote and no one is listens. Here they don't let you vote and don't listen either. What's the big difference ?

And no. If you have nothing to contribute: leave the thread to the Europeans.

[Vasconcelos]

Asega, if you were a woman I'd ask my gf if we could have a threesome with you.

[Curtis24]

whatever, you've raised good points, but you're acting as if I just made a personal insult to you.

[Fortis in Arduis]

There are obvious military-strategic reasons why we should be self-sufficient but I think that they are secondary to the breakdown of finance capitalism.

Just because we can grow rice does not necessarily mean that it should be our first priority.

The means of food distribution should be democratically-owned before that happens.

What I mean is, the co-operativisation of retail should take precedence over enforcing un-economical measures towards self-sufficiency.

Co-operativisation would take care of everything else, including the America-crap.

No need to restrict imports or anything like that.

[Groenewolf]

What Europe also should do is to grow some products for biofuel but for the rest should our agriculture be based on producing here what we need.

I need to look up the figures, but I think that James Lovelock had calculated that if we wanted to switch to pure biofuel it would have devastating effects on the remaining nature of Europe. In others words large parts of the remaining forersts and others parts have to make place for the production of biofuel.


That's a vital difference there. Basically, let me try to explain it to you Americans, that are used to just bombing the world flat looking for the oil you need:

Or Dutch that are used to bombing the world for the spices we need. Talking in stereotypes is always easy but contribute little.


The farmer is not the problem, the corrupt middleman is. And they are the chaps that should be dealt with: collectivisation.

So instead of them dealing with a private monopoly they must deal with a state monopoly. Would that solve the problem of the farmers. I doubt it. Since they still will have to deal with a single agency that can decide what price they get for their goods and most likely will not calculate drops in prices for the raw product to the consumer. So neither the farmer nor the average working or entrepreneurial European would profit from it.


And yes: Europe should strive to get a couple of it's own Silicon Valley's and set up a real industry competing with the United States.

Then you should first learn how Silicon Valley was formed, and it was not trough government initiative.


Yeah ok.

Start by offering interest free loans to people in retail and agriculture who want to co-operativise the companies they work for.

The rest will follow.

Of course those interest free loans must come from somewhere. And it still would not solve the problem of conflicting regulations and other costs that governments put on small entrepreneurs and farmers.


don't you guys see that your high lifestyle is directly related to cheap immigrant labor?

First of all a higher percentage of them are depended on welfare and are criminal. And it has been calculated in many European countries that they cost more then they produce. Second it presumes that the number of jobs that are light on g stays the same or is even growing. It is not. For example a lott less people are needed in agriculture today then before the industrial revolution. This is thanks to mechanization.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's a shame that the perfect diagram for comparing the Rhenish system to the American system is in Dutch. However I will post it and see how it goes and provide a translation:

First.. let's take a look at the Rhenish model (http://www.hansonexperience.com/blog/files/Rijnlands.pdf) (in a sense.. still our model):

From left to right: clockwise:

-aimed at long-term continuity and trust (satisfied customers, satisfied employees, satisfied investors, win-win, "there are different shades of grey"
-organisation as the "necessary evil" needed for realising complex products.
-at it's centre stands competence and meaning
-the manager as a cooperating foreman
-competence is the responsibility of the employee and the organisation
-there is a drive to innovate and for science
-focussed on Asia
-The Netherlands as an innovative power (pioneering role in the field of social economics, pioneering role in the field of technology
-careful, thought over, decent, boring, seeing everything from an historical perspective.
-coordination through shared values
-social consensus between employers, employees and investors
-collective power
-culture: open and feminine


No on to the Anglosaxon/American model (http://www.hansonexperience.com/blog/files/Anglo-amerikaans.pdf). A model for which I can find nothing but disdain.

-focussed on short term gain (you are for us or against us), win-lose, money is power, may the best man win, shareholders value)
-organisation as a money-making machine (planning & control), transaction costs, agents)
-at it's centre are money, power and heroism
-the manager is an MBA because managing is a profession
-competence is the responsibility of the employee
-technology and market-driven
-The Netherlands as a nation of trade (merchants and vicars)
-adventurous, intense and passionate
-US-orientated
-coordination by regulations
-minimal government influence (the market rules: the Invisible Hand)
-individual success: the American Dream.

Yap. The first system rules supreme as it has served us well. The second one only led to crisis.

[The Lawspeaker]

I need to look up the figures, but I think that James Lovelock had calculated that if we wanted to switch to pure biofuel it would have devastating effects on the remaining nature of Europe. In others words large parts of the remaining forersts and others parts have to make place for the production of biofuel.
So no biofuel then but hydrogen and electricity. Or we can slow down the transfer and use hybrid cars.




Or Dutch that are used to bombing the world for the spices we need. Talking in stereotypes is always easy but contribute little.
At that came back to bite us in the arse did it ? Big time.




So instead of them dealing with a private monopoly they must deal with a state monopoly. Would that solve the problem of the farmers. I doubt it. Since they still will have to deal with a single agency that can decide what price they get for their goods and most likely will not calculate drops in prices for the raw product to the consumer. So neither the farmer nor the average working or entrepreneurial European would profit from it.
There is no monopoly. It's more localized economy and the only planning committee involved with just exist to assist the transfer.
It's essentially a market economy just driven by cooperatives rather then cooperations and it could even become a market of cooperatives selling directly to costumers while also in the cities we can grow food..



Then you should first learn how Silicon Valley was formed, and it was not trough government initiative.
But the government can set a policy needed to make it easier for the market. Eindhoven would be a good start.. F.i set up a technology exchange where representatives from companies can meet each other and the meet the creative industry and look for a good location. It would usually be an existing one and the government can help in building the vital infrastructure and provide them with temporal tax breaks.







First of all a higher percentage of them are depended on welfare and are criminal. And it has been calculated in many European countries that they cost more then they produce. Second it presumes that the number of jobs that are light on g stays the same or is even growing. It is not. For example a lott less people are needed in agriculture today then before the industrial revolution. This is thanks to mechanization.
Hence we don't need "cheap labour" that brings in very high costs on both a societal and financial level.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Of course those interest free loans must come from somewhere. And it still would not solve the problem of conflicting regulations and other costs that governments put on small entrepreneurs and farmers.


We pay a lot of tax, which goes into propping up a system which is failing us.

Some of that money could be diverted to encouraging people towards holding a stake in their future, and in fact, variants of this are already popular with worker-shareholder schemes and partnerships, which have proved themselves to be successful models, and the latter, as a variant closer to the co-operative model, has been even more successful during the recent troubled period.

We do not need, futures derivatives, currency trading, and fractional reserve banking, but changing that from the top down could be dangerous and probably impossible. It has to be done from the bottom up and we could do that, on a local level, instead of throwing money away on elastoplasts like bail-outs, excessive welfare and wars driven by finance.

No need for Nazi / Fascist adventures.

[Bloodeagle]

I don't know if Europe would ever be able to completely become energy efficient but at least it could become non dependent on Middle Eastern oil by trading and mining other hydrocarbon sources of energy such as coal.
I think the biggest breakthroughs in energy production will be the mining of Methane hydrates. (http://www.ornl.gov/info/reporter/no16/methane.htm)

Methane hydrate isn’t a familiar term to most, but it is gaining popularity in the energy sector. In the realm of energy R&D, methane hydrates are being evaluated as a potential fuel for the future. Some believe there is enough methane in the form of hydrates—methane locked in ice—to supply energy for hundreds, maybe thousands, of years.

This source of energy could also buy a few more generations the time to develop other, yet unknown sources of energy and propulsion.:)

h-e5uGo-r1A

[Psychonaut]

I am not talking about invading some place and nicking it's oil.

You know what they say about glass houses and throwing stones, right (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/dutc-j22.shtml)? If you have to be douchey about something that we do, at least try to make sure it's not something you guys are doing too.

Countries engaged in military operations in oil rich countries: USA, Netherlands, etc.

Countries whose oil companies have been awarded contracts in those same countries: USA, Netherlands, etc.

[The Lawspeaker]

You know what they say about glass houses and throwing stones, right (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/dutc-j22.shtml)? If you have to be douchey about something that we do, at least try to make sure it's not something you guys are doing too.
We are not even an independent country but run by stooges. But then again: that little joke brought down a marionette government while such stuff didn't harm the US administration.
So when it comes to that you may wonder how why a "government" walked so firmly behind American policies



Countries engaged in military operations in oil rich countries: USA, Netherlands, etc.
The Netherlands hasn't been an independent country since 1940. 1940-1945- German Occupation. 1945-present- American Occupation. The only oil war we fought- as a country: 1873-1913 Aceh War and that's wasn't strictly an oil war either (the Aceh people were up to their necks in slave-trade and piracy even after the Dutch had banned the practice throughout the Netherlands Indies and the colonial authorities had had enough.) But the adventures from the 17th century to 1940 came back to bite us in the ass: we have an astounding big number of colonials here.



Countries whose oil companies have been awarded contracts in those same countries: USA, Netherlands, etc.
Well.. fact of the matter that Shell isn't much of a Dutch company anymore since it's HQ is in London and it's supposedly jointly run but then again the "Queen" seems to have high connections there.

[Lurker]

It's not complete autarky, mate but it's indeed limiting import and strengthening our own position. But I recognize that we are too small as a country and it can only be done Europe-wide.:thumb001:

What products would have need to be imported under your system?

[The Lawspeaker]

What products would have need to be imported under your system?
Tropical products, certain spices, certain types of wood, Basically whatever can't be produced here.

[Lurker]

Tropical products, certain spices, certain types of wood, Basically whatever can't be produced here.

I think that not participating in global trade (in teh almost autarky you describe) wouldn't be good for Europe, or any nation for that matter. Just compare the economic growth South Korea and North Korea experienced. Or Taiwan x PRC until the 1970's. Of course, some people value some things more than economic growth, but I don't know if it'd be that much (the difference between the GDP per capita of these countries can get as high as 13 times).

[Vasconcelos]

You're seriously comparing Europe with North Korea or Taiwan? I'm not talking about culture or races, just size and natural resources.

An European Autarky could work, for the most part, especially if you count Russia in (european russia, that is)

[Don]

Europe should become more self-sufficient???

Of course not.

I like moor, amerindian and black slaves.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Hidalgo.JPG

[Albion]

This relates a bit to my Autarky (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20248&highlight=autarky) thread.

I agree, as in my other thread I believe that each country should be as self-sufficient as possible and on failing that at least Europe should be.

So what we have: Lots of agricultural land, timber, coal, wave and wind power, solar power (potential) and a generally good growing climate. We also have amongst the world's best technology and thinkers and a large labour force.
We also have reserves of gas and oil, although probably not at self-sufficient levels without Siberia.

What we currently need from elsewhere: Oil, gas, "rare earths"


O.K.. we somehow need to make sure that we can ween ourselves off oil by completely overhauling our energy system and spending some serious money in research and in converting our transport system (every railway line for instance has to be powered by electric overhead wiring or third rail) from imported fuels to hydrogen and electricity and we ought to do some serious research and spending into doing renewable energy. We have some areas in Europe (like Norway) that are real powerhouses and we should definitely to unify our grid system and to link those areas to less fortunate areas.

Energy is probably the key issue here. Most other things we can produce ourselves, but energy resources depend on oil and gas too much, a lot of which we have to import.
So we must find ways to gradual abandon oil and gas. The only real reason we aren't doing it now is because its still there. If it was suddenly gone or cut off then we'd probably find alternatives over night, but alternatives are only half-heartedly pursued due to expense and governments dragging their heals.

We can probably replace gas and oil fired power plants with coal fired ones for the time being, preferably "clean coal" and carbon capture. We could work on tidal, hydro and solar energy schemes and in windy locations wind farms.
We could also burn waste, both human, industrial, animal and etc to power electricity production, with the fumes being pumped into sealed old mines as carbon capture, along with other harmful gases.

Electricity would have to be dramatically reduced in price so that it could be used as a replacement for most things, for electric cars to powering heating. Electricity will probably power almost everything in the future and when the natural gas and oil run out there is not much else Europe or the world can turn to.
Biomass can work, but wastes huge amounts of land which could be devoted to feeding humans, it is unworkable.

If Europe were to go self-sufficient together as a partnership of countries then we could see each individual country assigned a few roles and things to produce relative to its abilities. For example Ukraine would concentrate on producing arable crops whilst Norway and Scotland would concentrate on renewable energy.
Each nation would be linked in a grid so that each nation had a role and each nation benefited from the role of another nation. Basically we can also burn coal as well, that is until it runs out.


We would need to import less rice if we can grow it in Southern Europe, with a bit of luck we could grow some subtropical products along the Med as well as well as in greenhouses (maybe some tropical products as well and if you combine greenhouses with urban buildings we can maybe use that space twice). We luckily can grow most of our food so we could import less there as well. We just need to use our space and geography more cleverly.

What can be grown here must be grown here. But biomass is a waste of time as I said earlier.
Ukraine, England, Netherlands, North Germany and France could host large areas of cereal and arable production, with crops requiring warmer climates grown in Southern Europe as you say.
One problem however is lack of water in Southern Europe for crops on a massive scale, but with inter-connected grids we could potentially transfer water from abundantly wet areas such as Wales, Norway, the Netherlands and the Alps via the what would become interconnected pipelines of the European water supplies and onto Southern Europe.


What Europe should do is also recycle as much as possible. Not to "save the environment" but to save our (economic) skin. If we recycle more we need to import less.

Yes. Oil is being wasted making more plastic when we should be reusing much of the plastic we've already got. I'd also be interested to see if hard, natural rubber could be developed as a growable alternative to plastic. If natural rubber could replace plastic then we'de have a renewable material for many of our products.
At the moment rubber mainly grows in the tropics, but we've altered and selectively bred plant varieties to grow in colder climates many times, I'm sure Europe-hardy species could be developed.


I think Europe's best resource has always been its brains.

That is the most important thing we have.


There are certain things that Europe needs to trade for and there is no getting around this.

I beg to differ. Surely we of all people can think of ways to get around this, for most things we already have, we just don't put them into practice.


Europe should just stop feeling guilty for having wealth

Guilt doesn't come into it. We want to be dependent on nobody but ourselves and as many resources dwindle other countries will start using resources as political weapons.
See China and rare earths (http://oilandglory.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/10/21/is_chinas_rare_earth_power_play_really_such_a_big_ deal). It seems they won't share...


There is enough oil on the planet for hundreds of years of continuous human growth. It only needs to be made cheaper that is all.

Oil from elsewhere.


Current green technology constitutes a mild failure at best in respect to modern energy needs as well as future ones. In all the beloved 'green' nations oil/natural gas still makeup the main sources of energy by far.

Because half-hearted governments don't bother putting 100% into renewable sources because they know that for the moment at least they can just fall back on oil. :rolleyes2:


they wouldn't continue to exist in a max-profit global system as we live in today.

See my Autarky thread. Europe and indeed much of the world could survive and probably thrive on a internal market closed to outside trade.


Where did you get this information from, I hear the very opposite everyday.

Yes, that's hippies scaremongering I'm afraid.


Lower your wages,

Abolish minimum wage to make a more competitive economy.


work 40 hour weeks, and understand many of you will have to work labor/manufacturing jobs that don't require a degree.

This would be the reality for many under a "self sufficient Europe", but for the most part not much would change employment-wise.


The whole "everyone needs a degree thing" is a sham if you care about preservation.

Why? The more knowledge the better surely?


This is perhaps something that should best be left to Europeans. Americans etc don't know our geography or our climate.

Americans don't understand non-global economies. They have to realise that globalism is the reason why theirs and our jobs keep moving to China, why every time you ring up a call centre someone from India picks up and why investment flows out of their country and our countries and not in.


I am not talking about invading some place and nicking it's oil. No I am talking about exploring the European part of the Atlantic for oil and weening ourselves off it as soon as possible.

A good idea since so much of our oceans are simply not understood. There could be countless resources down there not being harvested. At the moment the Faroes are looking for oil around their islands, Denmark is in Greenland and the British have suggested there might be oil around Rockall.

And once the oil does run out at least we'll be ready, in oil dependent states such as how we are now and how America is there'd be hell up.


I am talking about no longer buying American grain but growing it here in Europe.

It makes more sense since growing it even in Southern Russia or Ukraine makes more sense than bringing it all the way from America. We have land suitable for it, I don't know why we don't utilize it.


In let's say places like Southern Italy or spreading it's production over all of Europe so more farmers get work and we get to diversify our agriculture and less work goes to America.

More work for unemployed Europeans then, many of which could be put to work as farm labourers. I hate the service industry, its almost as if the whole service economies are based on very few physical objects indeed. I don't see how a service economy based around loaning money and debts can ever really sustain itself in the long term and occasionally its weaknesses are highlighted when the frequent economic crisis occur.
At the end of the day look at it as if you lived in Zimbabwe - what would you rather have there, a million Zimbabwe dollars or a productive farm? (yes if your white then it could be seized, but forget that).


The same goes for all sorts of products we are now importing from the Third World: if we can do it ourselves we will do it ourselves. And yes it will be slightly more expensive but there have been reports indicating that wage costs make up only 6 percent of the actual price.

Our peoples are unemployed whilst bosses send work over to the third world. Its a disgrace. Europe first! Penny pinching can wait.


but because we can grow the same stuff in Greece, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Italy.

More unemployed Europeans who could have had a job that has gone to the third world. More things we could be growing ourselves and more things we wouldn't have to be dependent on getting from elsewhere (yes its only hazel nuts, but its an example).


Wood. We now import it from South-East Asia and Brazil. I don't get it. We could simply use different kinds of wood in a lot of products and grow our own production forests here in Europe.

We grow much in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe and Russia. Also we could reforested other areas which had suffered de-forestation and this would help these areas economically and naturally. Since the forests would be constantly maintained and replanted it would see vast areas of formerly de-forested countries such as areas of England and Western Europe reforested and maintained as forest. It would produce much wood for manufacturing and products and provide a good habitat for wildlife.


And yes: Europe should strive to get a couple of it's own Silicon Valley's and set up a real industry competing with the United States.

We already have, the only difference is our technology industries are more spread out and we don't shout about it like Americans do. Take ARM for example, their processors and microchips power almost all of the worlds phones and smartphones and they grew from a little company in England.:thumb001:


There should be a European competitor for Microsoft (I am not talking Linux here but a commercial one) and all European governments should abandon Windows and move to European programs.

We don't have to replace everything, mainly just resources but we could replace software if we wanted to as well I suppose.
Many European governments are already formulating or rolling out custom-made Linux distros for use in schools and offices already, although some are making non-Linux systems from the fround up.


less dependent on abroad.

My sentiments exactly.

[Albion]

You should call your policy autarky and get a job at the Dutch Economics Ministry.

That jobs taken, by me :D


It's not complete autarky, mate but it's indeed limiting import and strengthening our own position. But I recognize that we are too small as a country and it can only be done Europe-wide

Yes, the Netherlands on its own or perhaps even England would simply revert to peasant societies subsisting on agriculture. It would be the same for many countries. And then countries with many resources and hardly any arable land would suffer from lack of food. It would have to be between countries.


It's anti-global so the powers that be would nix it.

They won't be around forever. America is declining, China couldn't care less, it has a big enough market in its own nation, let alone the rest of Asia.


Here in the Uk you will soon see the people on the streets as in France - the cuts mean a million people will be out of work. Way I see it the Right cannot leave it to the trade unions and the Left to mobilise. The Right has to be on the streets as well. The next decade is going to be real tough in England. That means our people need to come to us for leadership. It is a real opportunity.

It would take years to implement, decades. America has to decline further for it to happen on a Europe-wide scale and like all empires it will fall. The British know that better than anyone else.


The Right is right. It is dexterous rather than sinister. The Left is for wiping your backside with.

This idea is between left and right. It goes against the Anglo-Saxon-right-wing philosophy by opposing globalisation and not importing from abroad simply because its cheaper.


Start by offering interest free loans to people in retail and agriculture who want to co-operativise the companies they work for.

The rest will follow.

Nice idea, but blocking trade from abroad in certain items gradually would also help.


don't you guys see that your high lifestyle is directly related to cheap immigrant labor?

We have that too, in Eastern Europe and the poorer regions of Western Europe such as Northern England :D


I think many of the answers that you seek could be achieved through the practice of permaculture in agriculture!

In most places Permaculture just isn't productive enough, but in places which are hard to farm or are wilderness it could help a few families add to their food supply.


Right, because you had large numbers of white Europeans willing to work blue-collar jobs. This is, less and less, the case. Everybody wants a degree, everyone wants some specialized type of job that is high status. With benefits and vacation time. Well, everyone can have that, but you need foreigners to work the menial jobs.

Everyone is a cog in the machine that is the world economy. In an Autarkal economy, a fully internal economy everyone is a cog in the machine that is the internal economy. Nothing changes.
There'll still be people doing menial jobs because 1) they need doing and 2) the unemployed will be put to work.
There is only so many degree-based jobs people can fill, eventually there is a limit so people will have to start filling other jobs. That is what worries me about England, the dependence on degrees as opposed to actual labour, resources and physical objects - hence the occasional "jitter" in the markets. This time its a strong one.


If Europe is to become self-sufficient, most of the kids now in college will have to drop out and go work in the factories.

Not a problem. With the drop in welfare payments it is becoming uneconomical and unaffordable for many students to study at college anyway, many are realising they have to get jobs now.


And even if it did, birthrates are so low that in 10-20 years, you'd still need to start asking the immigrants to come over again.

Hasn't anyone notice that when the material wealth of a country goes up its birth rate goes down? Why is that?
Its because in poorer countries people think that the more kids they have the more workers they have to get jobs and to bring money in. During the crossover into such a scheme Europe would lose a great lot of wealth in the short term.
Also government cash and incentives can help boost the birth rate and better, cheaper housing provided. Many people put-off having kids until latter life because houses are so expensive and because they're too embroiled in their careers in the service industry.
In labour-intensive areas the more labourers the better, hence higher birth rates.

Also I'd like to know how much of America's birth rates are actually down to white people? I always wonder this when Americans start talking about European birth rates.


Do us all a favour, Yank. If you don't know how Europe works (and you clearly don't) stay out and keep your opinions to yourself.

Easy now...


American free market ideas have led us exactly to where we are today: at the brink of collapse.

Yes. One notices that countries which actually produce and export things have done a lot better than the financial powers of America and Europe.


Re-read the title and understand that Europe means Europe. The Old World, Europe. Not the United States but EUROPE. American ideas don't work here, never did and never will. Because they don't even work in America itself.

As our relatives Americans should be consulted, but for the whole they don't understand the workings of the European group of small nations all too often.
Europe isn't like America, and we've learned some good things and bad things from them, but this is something we'd have to do ourselves.


I believe that immigrant-work in Europe today is grossly over-estimated, Europeans are turning their backs on important trades etcetera. Far too many feel entitled to a Higher Education.. seriously, what's the point in having a nation of astrophysicists if the farmers or the plumbers aren't there to sustain them?

That would be resolved as in a less globalized economy there'd be less service (aka "degree") based jobs meaning much employment would revert to skills actually needed - labour intensive things such as farming and manufacturing.


Thank you, John Maynard Keynes.

He raised a good point actually.


And what if you also learn such things like plumbing at school as part of the curriculum ?

Nice idea. I believe trades used to be taught in Britain as part of the curriculum in the 50s. A shortage of builders, plumbers and electricians has resulted ever since they stopped it. :rolleyes:
Many kids in schools are actually of the practical sort, its just they don't have much shown to them as to what they are able to do, like to do and can be employed as skills-wise, its all about computers and little else apart from basic skills.


Completely agreed. It should also be noted that the economy must not be regulated by the government as it gives too much authority to the state. It should be regulated by the philosophy of the community.

On a Europe-wide scale that would be a disaster and local warlords would emerge as Europe would form into tiny new isolationist states. And on top of that Europe would be poor and without food and basic items needed since there would be no organisation to organise it effectively.


The religion of the community.

Catholicism.

Bias :D:thumb001:


6 - We don't "wean ourselves off oil" unless we want to live in the dark and ride horses.

We replace oil with something else since we'll have to eventually. Its better soon rather than latter.


not to sound like a smart mouth but don't look at America as any example it amazes me how dependent we still are on oil and lots more from other countries when we really shouldn't be!
Hell we have our own oil and don't use it..lol

Yes, its really quite amazing when you think about it.


European states are being engineered towards inter-dependency.

That is one of the aims of the European Union and it is dangerously inefficient and dysgenic and benefits only the plutocracy.

Why should France and the UK sell each other potatoes?

You really think in countries this small that inter-dependency didn't already exist? You have two choices: to be interdependent with the rest of the world or just with the rest of Europe.
Besides, its not total interdependence, mainly its about energy and food resources, the rest is down to individual countries.


We just can. And we all pay taxes and assist each other. That's something that Americans have never ever heard off. It's called solidarity.

And paying a bit of our wage towards a welfare state, the money we pay helps look after all of us when times are tough.


I need to look up the figures, but I think that James Lovelock had calculated that if we wanted to switch to pure biofuel it would have devastating effects on the remaining nature of Europe.

I highlighted this too, its not worth it.


Methane hydrates.

This is an option since its readily available.


What products would have need to be imported under your system?

Not much, perhaps none. For the moment though Chinese rare earths and that's about it, but don't worry, replacements will be found :D


You're seriously comparing Europe with North Korea or Taiwan? I'm not talking about culture or races, just size and natural resources.

An European Autarky could work, for the most part, especially if you count Russia in (european russia, that is)

Hahaha, my thoughts exactly!

[The Lawspeaker]

I realise that European countries import a lot of products that are made by means of child labour. In a Dutch program ÉenVandaag it was revealed, that for instance, hazelnuts that are used in for instance chocolate spreads are imported from Turkey (http://www.stopchildlabour.eu/stopchildlabour/English/News/articles/Multinationals-acknowledge-problem-but-remain-vague-about-solutions) (a major producer) that still uses child labour.

Today the program revealed that Turkish children get 1 euro for 1 hour work - and they work 11 hours a day while "the problems could have been solved" if their father would get paid 7 euro's an hour.

I am aghast. Not because we pay the children 1 euro per 1 hour work (thus 11 euro's a day-- something that not much children used to make during our paper rounds or when washing the car when I had to be happy with 75 cents for washing my neighbour's car) but because we still have to import that stuff.

Solution: we should focus on growing hazelnut, cherry, fig, apricot, quince and pomegranate and all those other agricultural products that we now import from Turkey in our own European countries: mainly in Greece, the Balkans, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Southern France to the level that we can export it rather then import things from Turkey.

I don't care about Turkish employment or the creation of Turkish unemployment but I care a lot about European employment. If teenagers and young students - along with the unemployed or even prisoners (that are now sitting idly in a comfortable prison) can do the hard work for let's say 7 euro's an hour (prisoners shouldn't get paid) and when farms mechanise we can make sure that companies like Ferrero, Mars and Unilever doesn't have to import it from Turkey anymore --- and thus no longer supports their economy.

[Albion]

Today the program revealed that Turkish children get 1 euro for 1 hour work - and they work 11 hours a day while "the problems could have been solved" if their father would get paid 7 euro's an hour.

I don't know, you can give kids easy work like that I suppose. But I think 1 Euro an hour is ridiculous, it should be at least 2.50 taking into account that Turkey is a poorer nation and that 2.50 is something like half the average European minimum wage per hour of work.
I say this because it doesn't appear as tough work (kids shouldn't be given tough work anyway) and they're only kids so they don't need full minimum wage and by giving it them it'd push prices up significantly.

The welfare of the kids should be provided for, they should be provided with plenty of breaks, drinks and snacks - it's probably quite warm out in a field in Turkey.


but because we still have to import that stuff.

Lol, Civis, you old socialist. :D :rolleyes:

That shocks me too. Hazel trees grow well in Atlantic Europe, we should be growing them here. We could easily mix them in with commercial forestry - two products from one plantation. Hazel trees aren't huge anyway. :thumbs up

(Another idea of mine was that we should encourage the planting of fruit trees in all British hedgerows and gardens possible - free, fresh fruit and something to look at for the nation... but that's for another post... ;) )


Solution: we should focus on growing hazelnut, cherry, fig, apricot, quince and pomegranate and all those other agricultural products that we now import from Turkey in our own European countries: mainly in Greece, the Balkans, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Southern France to the level that we can export it rather then import things from Turkey.

Agreed. Some such as hazel and cherry would probably be better in Eastern Europe than baking hot Southern Europe though. We could provide desperate Moldova with jobs - they have a good viticulture industry with Russia, we could help them sell to the west and develop fruit and nut orchards there and in Ukraine and Romania too. Plus it'd be much cheaper and still be from Europe.


I don't care about Turkish employment or the creation of Turkish unemployment but I care a lot about European employment.

Same here. Europe comes first.


If teenagers and young students - along with the unemployed or even prisoners (that are now sitting idly in a comfortable prison) can do the hard work for let's say 7 euro's an hour (prisoners shouldn't get paid) and when farms mechanise we can make sure that companies like Ferrero, Mars and Unilever doesn't have to import it from Turkey anymore --- and thus no longer supports their economy.

Yes, there is an unemployment problem in much of Europe. Unfortunately I have experience myself of farming and can tell you that much of that work would be seasonal.
Labour is needed at this time of year, I think Hazel is more of a spring "fruiting" tree though.

Prisoners shouldn't be paid I agree, but they should be repairing roads and schools as part of a chain gang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor), not out in some nice countryside. ;)

Plus you have missed something - it'd probably still be cheaper for these companies to import from Turkey. You'd have to put in place laws protecting European produce, making it prioritised over non-European produce and making non-European purchases a last resort only by law.

[Albion]

I strongly agree with this and think it's actually important in the context of self-reliance. When I "settle down" in the long term I'll do my best to find a place with fertile land and grow as much of my own food as resources allow. More people really should do this imo. Self-sufficiency and strong, literal connections to "the land" are severely lacking.

I agree. In medieval times an Englishman's garden was a vegetable patch, it should be the same today.
I have grow a few potatoes, leeks and strawberries in the garden.

If everyone grew a few staples such as potatoes then we'd have to import less food, most of the rest could be provided by farmers.
People would also save money, get fresher, better food and would get outdoors more often.


European states are being engineered towards inter-dependency.

They are, but there has always been some degree of inter-dependency in these small countries of ours.


That is one of the aims of the European Union and it is dangerously inefficient and dysgenic and benefits only the plutocracy.

Yeah, we don't need the EU middleman telling us what to do.


Why should France and the UK sell each other potatoes?

They shouldn't. But France can sell us stuff we struggle to produce such as vegetables and warmer climate fruit whilst we sell them meat, fish and grain (cereals).


Why do British supermarkets buy beans from Kenya?

We shouldn't.


Why they are pretty much able to grow it themselves.

We can certainly grow and raise our own staple foods - cereals and most meat we are self sufficient in, these make up the main part of the diet.

We import a lot of fruit and vegetables because free trade killed our own agriculture in these products - veg comes from the Netherlands, fruit from France, Spain and New Zealand.

We should be as self-sufficient as feasibly possible, and of course, viable. There is no use for example growing oranges on a large scale here, but instead we could grow plenty of apples, cherries, pears and plums which do well here.


While beans can be grown in England... hell.. they can be grown in your backyard.

Yup, but they're missing the tomato sauce and the tin. :D


We just can. And we all pay taxes and assist each other. That's something that Americans have never ever heard off. It's called solidarity.

:thumb001: I can hardly say Europe is a utopia, but it seems Americans live to work. Britain is at risk of that too.


Just because we can grow rice does not necessarily mean that it should be our first priority.

:thumb001:


No need to restrict imports or anything like that.

On things we can be self-sufficient in there is.

[Albion]

In England the price of land has gone through the roof. This is largely due to speculation, rich snobs buying it up and muppets messing around on horses.


But one thing that bothers me is this - I see lots of land wasted all around. We could maximise the use of land, increasing efficiency and output whilst still preserving the character and wildlife of the landscape at the same time.

A few examples:


Farmland hedgerows - plant some apple, pear, cherry and plum trees in them for goodness sake! Why leave them as just a hedge when they can be providing fresh fruit at the same time which can be gathered by the farm or left for kids or locals to take? Plus fruit trees make great habitats for birds and insects such as bullfinches (which feed on buds very often, much to the annoyance of orchard owners) and woodpeckers which nest in the old rotting wood of these trees.
Encourage people to grow staple crops in their gardens to boost their self-sufficiency and which would make us less dependent on foreign imports.
Allow vacant council land to be used for allotments of which there is an large demand.
Give over areas of the oversized council "playing fields" (aka vast wasteland with goalposts) to social housing.
Instead of continually building houses with large footprints, instead make it the norm to build in the loft where suitable - there's extra room space up there going to waste - use it!
Discourage front gardens since no one really uses them anyway and most are being paved over. They should be for a drive. The back garden can be made bigger without a front garden anyway by the house being further forward.
Make it illegal to drain gutter pipes straight into drains if there is space for a rainwater butt. Water from this is to be used in gardens and to wash cars.
Farmers often bring up stones in harvests - glacial till - instead of dumping it back on the fields with the soil they should be sorting the stones out and putting them in a pile, once they mount up then they can be sent for recycling as crushed stone for use in concrete, road laying or gravel.
Empty fields in winter - it encourages soil erosion and doesn't put any goodness back into the soil once the crops have been taken. Make it illegal to have bare earth fields for more than two weeks, require farmers to plant more crops or sow temporary grass for livestock or clover which gets ploughed into the land the following spring and adds nutrients such as nitrogen.
Instead of disposing of animal crap it should be used to replace chemical fertiliser. Cow manure is often used, but pig and poultry manure should be as well.
Lawns - shouldn't be too large or should be broken up with trees, ideally fruit trees or nut trees such as hazel.