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View Full Version : The opposite of the Ashkenazi Jew - New paper on Irish Traveller genetics



XenophobicPrussian
02-10-2017, 04:05 AM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2017/02/irish-travellers.html
(although he didn't really highlight the all good stuff from this study, just giving him credit for finding this)

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep42187

I think we already knew Irish travellers were native Irish and not Roma admixed, the analysis of when they diverged from settled Irish and how inbred they are is the good stuff.

Summary:


The Irish Travellers are a population with a history of nomadism; consanguineous unions are common and they are socially isolated from the surrounding, ‘settled’ Irish people. Low-resolution genetic analysis suggests a common Irish origin between the settled and the Traveller populations. What is not known, however, is the extent of population structure within the Irish Travellers, the time of divergence from the general Irish population, or the extent of autozygosity. Using a sample of 50 Irish Travellers, 143 European Roma, 2232 settled Irish, 2039 British and 6255 European or world-wide individuals, we demonstrate evidence for population substructure within the Irish Traveller population, and estimate a time of divergence before the Great Famine of 1845–1852. We quantify the high levels of autozygosity, which are comparable to levels previously described in Orcadian 1st/2nd cousin offspring, and finally show the Irish Traveller population has no particular genetic links to the European Roma. The levels of autozygosity and distinct Irish origins have implications for disease mapping within Ireland, while the population structure and divergence inform on social history.

Background:


The Irish Travellers are a community within Ireland, consisting of between 29,000–40,000 individuals, representing 0.6% of the Irish population as a whole1. They are traditionally nomadic, moving around rural Ireland and providing seasonal labour, as well as participating in horse-trading and tin-smithing2. Since the 1950’s the need for such traditional services has declined3, and the population has become increasingly urban, with the majority living within a fixed abode1. Despite this change in lifestyle, the Traveller community remains tight-knit but also socially isolated.


There is a lack of documentary evidence informing on the history of the Irish Traveller population5,6. As a result, their origins are a source of considerable debate, with no single origin explanation being widely accepted. It has been suggested that the Irish Travellers are a hybrid population between settled Irish and Romani gypsies, due to the similarities in their nomadic lifestyle. Other, “Irish Origin”, hypothesised sources of the Irish Travellers include; displacement from times of famine (such as between 1740–1741, or the Great Famine of 1845–1852), or displacement from the time of Cromwellian (1649–53) or the Anglo-Norman conquests (1169 to 1240). The Irish Traveller population may even pre-date these events, and represent Celtic or pre-Celtic isolates4. These models of ethnogenesis are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and the Irish Traveller population may have multiple sources of origin with a shared culture.

Findings:


In order to investigate a possible Roma Gyspie origin of the Irish Travellers, we compared the Irish Travellers, and settled Irish to a dataset of Roma populations found within Europe16 using PCA and ADMIXTURE. The results broadly agree, with the Irish Travellers clustering with the settled Irish in the PCA plot, and resembling the settled Irish profile in ADMIXTURE analysis


Given the apparent structure between the Travellers and the settled Irish populations, we quantified genetic distance using Fst and “outgroup” f3 statistics. Fst analysis reveals a considerable genetic distance between the settled Irish and the Irish Traveller population (Fst = 0.0034, Table S1) which is comparable to values observed between German and Italian, or Scotland and Spain.
(they made a blunder here because this is non-sensical, their own figure shows that not to be the case and the distance is around the same from settled Irish to Orcadians, but anyway, said group of travellers, group B, group A clustered exactly with Irish, move away from any other group which indicates significant seperate genetic drift and not admixture)


In order to further investigate sub-structure within the Irish Travellers, we performed Fst analysis on the Irish Traveller PCA (n = 2) and fineStructure (n = 4) groups, comparing them to the settled Irish (see also Table S1). The individuals belonging to cluster PCA group B are considerably more genetically distant from the settled Irish (Fst = 0.0086), relative to PCA group A (Fst = 0.0036). This could be explained by distinct founder events for PCA groups A and B, or that PCA group B has experienced greater genetic drift.



There are two estimates for divergence from other Irish, the second one is supposedly more accurate.


The TF method estimates the divergence to be 40 (±2 std.dev – obtained via bootstrapping) generations. Assuming an average generation time of 30 years the TF method estimates that the divergence occurred 1200 (±60 – std.dev) years ago.

However, the isolation of the Irish Travellers will artificially increase the Fst value and consequently inflate the TF divergence estimate.


The results of the model suggest the Irish Travellers and settled Irish separation occurred 12 generations ago.
One group was 15 gens ago, the other was 10. Assuming the average of each gen is 30, that makes the average 12 number 360 and around the time of the Cromwell oppression, the later group from the 1740-1741 famine.

Personally, from what I've learned here and on other sites about how close ancient populations are to modern ones and noticing the speed of actual confirmed genetic drift from the paleolithic to the mesolithic(small genetic drift taking thousands of years), I tend to believe the 800 AD number more, not Cromwell, but I'm not the geneticist here, so listen to the people who did the research.


Consanguinity is common within the Irish Traveller population, and in this context we quantified the levels of homozygosity compared to settled Irish and world-wide populations19. We calculated the average total extent of homozygosity of each population using four categories of minimum length of Runs of Homozygosity (ROH) (1/5/10/16 Mb). Elevated ROH levels between 1 and 5 Mb are indicative of a historical smaller population size. Elevated ROH levels over 10 Mb, on the other hand, are reflective of more recent consanguinity in an individuals’ ancestry10.

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2017/170209/srep42187/images/w926/srep42187-f6.jpg
(holy fuck those Amazonians and Balochis need to chill with the cousin fucking, also, Papuans and SSAs being out-bred is very, very significant in terms of the causes of black intelligence)


As expected, the Irish Travellers present a significantly higher amount of homozygosity compared to the other outbred populations and to the European isolates the French Basque and Sardinian, which is sustained through to the larger cutoff categories of 10–16 Mb

There have also been studies showing high rates of 1st/2nd cousin marriage among the Irish Roma, which confirms this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvXojb-lCdQ

Fyi, Irish traveller kids in British schools(don't give me the whole "I'm sure Irish traveller schools suck, there are no Irish traveller schools suck, they go to the same schools as IQ 100 British kids) have an IQ of 87.

Another fyi, being pointed out that you're inbred is not a bad thing or an insult. It means you can fix yourself(well, your ethnic group anyway, and not to an entirely clear extent).

randomguy1235
02-10-2017, 04:11 PM
Welp, at least there's hope for severely inbred ethnic groups to recoup some of their IQ, health, and aesthetics. Problem is that a substantial number, as a result, are too low IQ to consider the implications of consanguinity...

Reminds me of how Saudis (who are required by law to be screened for genetic counseling) will still insist marrying their relatives and passing on debilitating genetic disorders to their offspring KNOWINGLY. Quite a conundrum at this point.

Grace O'Malley
02-10-2017, 04:19 PM
Welp, at least there's hope for severely inbred ethnic groups to recoup some of their IQ, health, and aesthetics. Problem is that a substantial number, as a result, are too low IQ to consider the implications of consanguinity...

Reminds me of how Saudis (who are required by law to be screened for genetic counseling) will still insist marrying their relatives and passing on debilitating genetic disorders to their offspring KNOWINGLY. Quite a conundrum at this point.

People use this IQ business too much. A lot of Travellers would be very capable if they just went to school. Some are very talented and have done well for themselves. Unfortunately a lot of them leave school very young. IQ tests can be improved with education and know how. Some women from the Traveller community who have graduated from university. A mother and daughter are below.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1029/738350-traveller-graduation/

http://www.paveepoint.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/mcdonnellaulamaxima-1200x800.jpg

http://www.independent.ie/style/fashion/style-talk/beauty-queen-and-member-of-travelling-community-sarah-jane-dunne-secures-degree-from-trinity-30867524.html

https://www.carlowcollege.ie/Portals/0/Sarah%20Jane%20Dunne.jpg

Grace O'Malley
02-10-2017, 04:26 PM
Interesting genetic plot from the study.

https://i.imgsafe.org/da89292dac.png

randomguy1235
02-10-2017, 04:30 PM
People use this IQ business too much. A lot of Travellers would be very capable if they just went to school. Some are very talented and have done well for themselves. Unfortunately a lot of them leave school very young. IQ tests can be improved with education and know how.



On the contrary, people and society love to deny the profound implications of IQ at all levels. There's a reason why the vast majority of folks have no conception of what IQ is or what it measures.

Btw, citing a few exceptions or anecdotal examples is irrelevant; average IQ of a group =/= ALL members of that group have "X" IQ ( think of it like height or eye color). There's a distribution of traits along a spectrum or bell curve. That's how statistics works.

XenophobicPrussian
02-10-2017, 04:42 PM
On the contrary, people and society love to deny the profound implications of IQ at all levels. There's a reason why the vast majority of folks have no conception of what IQ is or what it measures.

Btw, citing a few exceptions or anecdotal examples is irrelevant; average IQ of a group =/= ALL members of that group have "X" IQ ( think of it like height or eye color). There's a distribution of traits along a spectrum or bell curve. That's how statistics works.
Holy fuck, these people are everywhere.

"Look at these four people that graduated from university"

It's just unreal. Unreal.

IQ is about the most important thing in this world when it comes to the concept of modern success. It does not improve with education, and has nothing to do with what you would learn in a school. It obviously is affected by environment, how much is up for debate, what isn't up for debate is that genetics does have a gigantic role to play.

http://i1.wp.com/thealternativehypothesis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/B-W-Heritability-survey.png?w=678


the result is a strong statistical predictor of multiple future life outcomes - income, education level, health, even longevity. There are hundreds of studies that confirm these correlations. So in that sense, it "predicts" your future "success".

After controlling for IQ, nearly all gaps are gone or extremely narrowed:

http://i0.wp.com/thealternativehypothesis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Education-holding-IQ-constant.png?w=452

http://i1.wp.com/thealternativehypothesis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Wages-holding-IQ-constant.png?w=429

http://i1.wp.com/thealternativehypothesis.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Incarceration-holding-IQ-constant.png?w=390
(Murray and Hernstein, 1994)

If it weren't for anti-free speech libtards and scientific taboos, people who deny the importance of IQ would be like flat earthers.

Grace O'Malley
02-10-2017, 04:51 PM
On the contrary, people and society love to deny the profound implications of IQ at all levels. There's a reason why the vast majority of folks have no conception of what IQ is or what it measures.

Btw, citing a few exceptions or anecdotal examples is irrelevant; average IQ of a group =/= ALL members of that group have "X" IQ ( think of it like height or eye color). There's a distribution of traits along a spectrum or bell curve. That's how statistics works.

The problem is that Travellers don't go to school. That is completely relevant. There are some that are now attending school more consistently and they do better academically.

Regarding Africans there have been a significant amount coming here to Australia in the last 10 years. They are very successful here and many are university educated. There are quite a few from places like Kenya and Zambia. Very educated and lovely people. You can blab all you like about IQ tests but there is a lot of people that agree they are biased. Some people know how to do IQ tests to get the best results.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/roger-highfield/8104212/IQ-testing-race-and-controversy-put-your-intelligence-to-the-test.html

Everyone knows that if you practice something you will get better at it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/iq-tests-are-fundamentally-flawed-and-using-them-alone-to-measure-intelligence-is-a-fallacy-study-8425911.html

XenophobicPrussian
02-10-2017, 05:07 PM
The problem is that Travellers don't go to school. That is completely relevant. There are some that are now attending school more consistently and they do better academically.

Regarding Africans there have been a significant amount coming here to Australia in the last 10 years. They are very successful here and many are university educated. There are quite a few from places like Kenya and Zambia. Very educated and lovely people. You can blab all you like about IQ tests but there is a lot of people that agree they are biased. Some people know how to do IQ tests to get the best results.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/roger-highfield/8104212/IQ-testing-race-and-controversy-put-your-intelligence-to-the-test.html

Everyone knows that if you practice something you will get better at it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/iq-tests-are-fundamentally-flawed-and-using-them-alone-to-measure-intelligence-is-a-fallacy-study-8425911.html
and there are studies that show the opposite. Even if you could study for it, you have no evidence that shows random white kids are going to study for an IQ test while random black kids won't.

The Irish traveller IQ was taken from school children.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V43H575qcSU/UgAwex8NDWI/AAAAAAAAEPE/DUI0vGxa-9w/s400/Australia+Victoria+immigrant+crime+2012+graph+Soma lians+Sudanese.png

You still don't understand the very basic concept of averages and outliers.

Tbh fam, male/female differences in naivety and blind altruism are probably a bigger threat to our prosperity than racial differences at this point.

Grace O'Malley
02-10-2017, 05:45 PM
and there are studies that show the opposite. Even if you could study for it, you have no evidence that shows random white kids are going to study for an IQ test while random black kids won't.

The Irish traveller IQ was taken from school children.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V43H575qcSU/UgAwex8NDWI/AAAAAAAAEPE/DUI0vGxa-9w/s400/Australia+Victoria+immigrant+crime+2012+graph+Soma lians+Sudanese.png

You still don't understand the very basic concept of averages and outliers.

Tbh fam, male/female differences in naivety and blind altruism are probably a bigger threat to our prosperity than racial differences at this point.

I understand completely about the concept of averages and outliers. I'm not very altruistic either. I'm actually very pragmatic and not overly emotional in every day life. Some people think they know someone over the internet and think they can make personal comments about someone. I'm not doing that with you. My whole point is that IQ tests have a lot of variables. We'll see if those IQ tests fluctuate in the next 10 years. The IQ tests don't correspond to the achievements of some populations. Some populations that apparently have this low IQ are doing much better that some countries that have higher IQs.

Agenda, Agenda, Agenda. He is actually English but based at an Ulster University. I don't trust him to be impartial.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/richard-lynn

Grace O'Malley
02-10-2017, 05:56 PM
"Another accurate claim that can be made is that however IQ is measured it has been increasing with each generation over the past sixty years or so. James R. Flynn discovered this when he analyzed the data for all the countries that keep records of IQ scores. This trend is now called the Flynn effect. It could be due to more people with higher IQ breeding or taking the test, fewer people with lower IQ breeding or taking the test, the test getting easier, or social/cultural factors. The latter seems the most plausible. Flynn thinks that the hypothesis most in accord with the data regarding the relationship of IQ tests and intelligence is that "IQ tests do not measure intelligence but rather correlate with a weak causal link to intelligence."

http://skepdic.com/iqrace.html