European R1a vs Asian R1a. Which one would you choose?

[black hole]

@Rethel



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/R1a-map.JPG




Poland and Ukraine vs Afghanistan and India

[Root]

What's the point of creating this thread? I choose Asian R1a anyway, that's for sure. India and Afghanistan

[Governor]

The thread is kind a nonsense.

[Proto-Shaman]

why using such outdated fetish maps? post some useful updated maps.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jo4YVdHcczM/UzN-U6CtGnI/AAAAAAAAJiI/-cIin5Gh4Ow/s1600/ejhg201450f2.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/R1a_origins_(Underhill_2010)_and_R1a1a_oldest_expa nsion_and_highest_frequency_(2014).jpg

[johen]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg


The R1a-z93*, which originated in altai, is the best of best being history maker.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118467-The-Sayan-Archaeological-Complex

aryan culture starting in the Altai:
http://i58.tinypic.com/2ij6wkj.jpg

[Ülev]

bump, Rethel has to see it

[Peterski]

All those maps are extremely outdated. The ones posted by Kipchak Håkan as well.

Eupedia has better distribution maps for R1a. I also made a map with ancient R1a.

[Ülev]

(...)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/R1a_origins_(Underhill_2010)_and_R1a1a_oldest_expa nsion_and_highest_frequency_(2014).jpg

Sir Rethel of Rethelistan, go back to west Iran please, maybe Tabriz?

[Proto-Shaman]

Eupedia has better distribution maps for R1a.
Maybe because it fits into your Indo-European day dream distribution?

[Ülev]

but I like that map with origin of R1a, if it's true I can change my data, first time I will like to write R1a, lol

[Peterski]

Maybe because it fits into your Indo-European day dream distribution?

Why would I care about Indo-European R1a, if my own Y-DNA is Proto-Turkic R1b-DF27 ??? :rolleyes:

[Rethel]

bump, Rethel has to see it

He just saw it, and he also sees no point in such poll.
Obviously only logical choice for me would be chosing
european, becasue it is mine subclade, but what result
of it has to proof? I can;t see a point in that.

[Proto-Shaman]

Why would I care about Indo-European R1a, if my own Y-DNA is Proto-Turkic R1b-DF27 ??? :rolleyes:
Good, you decided well bro :thumb001: Welcome to the Proto-Turkic camp :cool:

[gültekin]

R is overrated creatures, we N 's rode them like ponys and hauled them to the west. Used for cleaning the shit of our horses and grabbed their wimminzz. later they escaped us

[DarknessWin]

Not exist european R1a , R1a is asian

[Peterski]

R is overrated creatures, we N 's rode them like ponys and hauled them to the west. Used for cleaning the shit of our horses and grabbed their wimminzz. later they escaped us

I can already smell a civil war coming in the Pan-Turkic camp...

[johen]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/R1a_origins_(Underhill_2010)_and_R1a1a_oldest_expa nsion_and_highest_frequency_(2014).jpg
Sir Rethel of Rethelistan, go back to west Iran please, maybe Tabriz?

I don't understand the origin of R1a. looks like the 2014 paper used modern samples, not ancient ones. I think the modern R1a in Caucasus area was caused by the invasion of scythian & turk, and replacement byTurk after mongol massacre, wasn't it?

[Proto-Shaman]

I don't understand the origin of R1a. looks like the 2014 paper used modern samples, not ancient ones.
Do we even have ancient M420 and M420* samples?

[johen]

Do we even have ancient M420 and M420* samples?

good point. However, the bronze people R1b and R1a-z93 are paleoeuropid type or cromagnon type as far as I know. So if the ancient R1a people in middle East migrated to the Altai, I think they could not become this paleo type. I think Bronze R people appeared after long isolation in certain area, like altai where the other Up type like Okunevo and bronze mongol chandman existed.


Debetz (1936), and Alexeev and Gokhman (1987) identified a so-called CroMagnon variety among the Bronze and Iron Age skeletal materials of European Russia and southern Siberia. This variety that combined the cranial robustness with a broad face, had its roots in the local Upper Palaeolithic

[Ülev]

but maybe R1a came from India and this is why Lithuanians (or Samogitians, using more properly word) and some Slavic languages are quite close to Sanskrit?
unwanted sons of Aryans? Sanskrit was written in local south Asian language, not in Aryan one?

[Pahli]

The R1a-z93*, which originated in altai, is the best of best being history maker.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118467-The-Sayan-Archaeological-Complex

aryan culture starting in the Altai:
http://i58.tinypic.com/2ij6wkj.jpg

It started in West Kazakhstan, expanding to Central Asia and then ended up in the Altai

[johen]

It started in West Kazakhstan, expanding to Central Asia and then ended up in the Altai

Botai Ural culture was found in afanasievo area. However, I think there was no horse bit in botai, considering the above horse picture 3. Still we don't know they were riding horse.
And another thing is sintashta chariot. which culture do you think they were connected to? I think only one afanasievo- okuneo culture considering the above picture.
Moreover, R1a-93 people in all culture was anthropologically related with afanasievo and then Okunevo.

[johen]

but maybe R1a came from India and this is why Lithuanians (or Samogitians, using more properly word) and some Slavic languages are quite close to Sanskrit?
unwanted sons of Aryans? Sanskrit was written in local south Asian language, not in Aryan one?

That is true. Lithuanian language is living IndoEuropean fossil.However, we need consider another R1a torcharian in tarim baisn.
R1a Qarighul(2,000bc tarim), R1a-z93 srubra and andronovo is anthropologically close to afanasievo:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e181/Borntobeking/4-2.jpg

And the newcomer Aryans in the Indus valley (Swat) for example:

"Twelve skulls from the graves of Butkara II and four skulls from the settlement of Aligrama have been found. They belong to the Mediterranean type that is represented in Central Asia. B. A. Litvinsky (1972: 186) has underlined “a remarkable resemblance between a series of skulls from Swat and the Saka skulls from the Pamirs” which was first noted by B. Bernhard (1967: 317-385). It suggests a genetic relation between the two populations. Among the 25 skulls from Timargarha this type is represented, as well as a massive proto-Caucasoid type which was distinctive for the steppe Andronovans, a Veddoid (3 skulls) usual for the indigenous inhabitants of Hindustan, and a Mongoloid type (2 skulls) which might have appeared during Ghaligai period III from Kashmir."
source: Elena E. Kuz’mina: The Origin of the Indo-Iranians - Leiden, 2007

So 32% of the Aryan conquerors were Eastern Mediterranids and 68% were Andronovo type Protoeuropid in this valley.

[Pahli]

Botai Ural culture was found in afanasievo area. However, I think there is no horse bit, considering the above horse picture 3. Still we don't know they were riding horse.
And another thing is sintashta chariot? which culture do you think they were connected? I think only one afanasievo- okuneo culture considering the above picture.
Moreover, R1a-93 people in all culture was anthropologically related with afanasievo and then Okunevo.

R1a-z93 is Proto-Indo-Iranian though and didn't originate among Mongoloid populations in the Altais.

[Rethel]

R1a-z93 is Proto-Indo-Iranian though and didn't originate among Mongoloid populations in the Altais.

Not only, but is hugely main.
There are also others subclades,
also from R1b branch and R2 (if
this one is our too).

[Ülev]

:picard2:
why do you want be all those mongoloid forms instead of being proud Indians?

[Rethel]

:picard2:
why do you want be all those mongoloid forms instead of being proud Indians?

:confused:

[Ülev]

:confused:

especially from about 5:50, how the West is looking at India but also other eastern (european) countries

https://youtu.be/WxOoJSH49VI

[Ülev]

:confused:

and you don't speak "manchurian" N1 language but from sanskrit

[johen]

R1a-z93 is Proto-Indo-Iranian though and didn't originate among Mongoloid populations in the Altais.

R1a-z93 was speaking Indo-European. Why do you think only Mongoloids lived in the Altai? As far as I know, paleo people lived in west altai, who are related to IndoEuropean language and afanasievo/Okunevo/ all ancient R1a-z93 people. I already showed the anthropological map.
see how afanasievo people looks like. This afanasievo people is anthropologically so close to all R1a-z93 People, even tocharian R1a in tarim basin:

Twenty-four skulls from Afanas'evo sites possess similar characters. In addition to such Europoid traits as a prominent nose and an orhtognathous, ralatively short and unflattened face, the Afanas'evo skulls are massive. The latter is expressed in a greater facial breadth, a greater slant of the forehead, and in highly developed supraorbital crests. This combination of characters is unknown among the modern European races but occurs in the Upper Paleolithic period.
The closest analogy to the Afans'evo skulls offered by the Cro-Magnon type of western Europe

Without horse-riding and chariot, the R1a-z93 is meaningless to discuss. So think about where those culture came from. answer is clear.

[Ülev]

vote here: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?203010-China-or-India-Which-country-do-you-like-the-most

[Pahli]

R1a-z93 was speaking Indo-European. Why do you think only Mongoloids lived in the Altai? As far as I know, paleo people lived in west altai, who are related to IndoEuropean language and afanasievo/Okunevo/ all ancient R1a-z93 people. I already showed the anthropological map.
see how afanasievo people looks like. This afanasievo people is anthropologically so close to all R1a-z93 People, even tocharian R1a in tarim basin:


Without horse-riding and chariot, the R1a-z93 is meaningless to discuss. So think about where those culture came from.

Chariots are believed to have originated in the Sintashta culture, west of Kazakhstan, amazing you haven't done that research yet.

[johen]

Chariots are believed to have originated in the Sintashta culture, west of Kazakhstan, amazing you haven't done that research yet.

How come chariot suddenly popped up in Sintashta without process?

Now, It is said that shintashta culture came from corded ware culture. Problem is there was no horse-riding culture in the CW. so it is non sense.

[Pahli]

How come chariot suddenly popped up in Sintashta without process?

Now, It is said that shintashta culture came from corded ware culture. Problem is there was no horse-riding culture in the CW. so it is non sense.

Well it is after the split from Corded Ware that the chariot emerged. Go look up on it. Its not non-sense as much as claiming r1a-z93 emerged in the Altais, it predates the Indo-European migration to the Altais.

[johen]

Well it is after the split from Corded Ware that the chariot emerged. Go look up on it. Its not non-sense as much as claiming r1a-z93 emerged in the Altais, it predates the Indo-European migration to the Altais.

- CW people, who did not ride horse, could not make chariot in sintashta where chariot was found. Everything has a process.

-did you see this map? R1a1 and Q1a2 were found in neolithic Altai. And R1a-z93 and Q1a2 were also found in mogol bronze, when chandman lived in there. Chandman is also paleo people type. So where do you think R1a-z93 people of sintashta or Poltavka came from? As far as I know, genetics admixture of two culture is similar, however, I have not found cranial data of sintashta. Poltavka resembles afanasievo. please show me the science data.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yo928Hon9Ww/UzN-U-aGWMI/AAAAAAAAJiM/3AE7m5bNwCY/s1600/ejhg201450f3.jpg

genetic relationship in Malta, Okunevo, karasuk(R1a-z93) and iron age altai(scythian), which is proved anthropologically also.
https://s31.postimg.org/5qn0sb09n/Capture2.png

The other R1a-z93 group(srubna, Poltavka, andronovo) is close to afanasievo

[Proto-Shaman]

good point. However, the bronze people R1b and R1a-z93 are paleoeuropid type or cromagnon type as far as I know. So if the ancient R1a people in middle East migrated to the Altai, I think they could not become this paleo type. I think Bronze R people appeared after long isolation in certain area, like altai where the other Up type like Okunevo and bronze mongol chandman existed.
Looks like the origin of the Turanid type. CM's mixing with Mongoloids in the east.

[johen]

Looks like the origin of the Turanid type. CM's mixing with Mongoloids in the east.

http://www.newhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/A-kurgan.jpg
http://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/SCIENCE/Neolithic-burial-mound-Vengerovo/inside_map.jpg
http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0448-7000-year-old-siberian-warrior-more-advanced-than-we-supposed/

1. The earliest kurgan was found in in the Vengerovsky District of Novosibirsk region near Ob river

]A burial mound accommodating the remains of nine individuals dated to the Stone Age has been unearthed in western Siberia. The discovery’s significance lies primarily in the fact that this kind of burial site was believed to have emerged later, in the Bronze Age, Russian media report.

2. And Gimbutas said like this:

Gimbutas (1985: 191) has suggested that the Srednij Stog II culture in the DnieperDonets region which she identifies as her Kurgan I and II cultures (ca. 4500–3500BCE) was not the result of local evolution in that region but had its source in an intrusion from an earlier culture farther east with connections to the earliest Neoli-thic in the Middle Urals and Soviet Central Asia. The archaeological record of the regions still farther east before that time is unfortunately still largely blank.:Edwin G. PulleyblankUniversity of British Columbiaedwin@unixg.ubc.ca THE PEOPLES OF THE STEPPE FRONTIER IN EARLYCHINESE SOURCES*

3. Can you prove Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum?

...the linguistic evidence from our family does not lead us beyond Gimbutas’ secondary homeland and that the Khvalynsk culture on the middle Volga and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus cannot be identified with the Indo-Europeans. Any proposal which goes beyond the Sredny Stog culture must start from the possible affinities of Indo-European with other language families. It is usually recognized that the best candidate in this respect is the Uralic language family, while further connections with the Altaic languages and perhaps even Dravidian are possible... What we do have to take into account is the typological similarity of Proto-Indo-European to the North-West Caucasian (i.e. Adyg) languages. If this similarity can be attributed to areal factors, we may think of Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic which was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum. It now appears that this view is actually supported by the archaeological evidence. If it is correct, we may locate the earliest (Uralo-Altaic) ancestors of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European north of the Caspian Sea in the seventh millennium. [F.Kortlandt, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 18, 1990, p.131]

[Rethel]

Johen,
I cannot belive, that you are taking seriously the trolling of Hakan... :picard1:

[Sacrificed Ram]

R-Z93 is the Khazar mark on jews.

[Ülev]

Johen,
I cannot belive, that you are taking seriously the trolling of Hakan... :picard1:

tanrıya şükür türküm soyum oğuz boylarından orta asyadan geliyor

[Norka]

We wuz KHANZ!!! Fuck you R1 small framed small cocked Whorians
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRJjf2ljoYq7NO0JE8ycYquQ_kMDA0w 3i3wc0qr-a6LLTTTuhNxYw86As

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlqADNx8A3CPITXBdaz3ZrHzyI7Dm9M 6Mm6uy2s9RD6L1UP8XlL9BMDu0Y

[johen]

R-Z93 is the Khazar mark on jews.

I don't know about jews, but it was found in there.
"their DNA and showed that both belonged to haplogroup R1a and its subclade Z93."
Excavated DNA from Two Khazar Burials
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?202585-Excavated-DNA-from-Two-Khazar-Burials

[Proto-Shaman]

http://www.newhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/A-kurgan.jpg
http://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/SCIENCE/Neolithic-burial-mound-Vengerovo/inside_map.jpg
http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0448-7000-year-old-siberian-warrior-more-advanced-than-we-supposed/

1. The earliest kurgan was found in in the Vengerovsky District of Novosibirsk region near Ob river


2. And Gimbutas said like this:


3. Can you prove Indo-European as a branch of Uralo-Altaic was transformed under the influence of a Caucasian substratum?

This is exactly what I think, and what many academics wrote and still write, but hardcore inferiority-complexed Indo-Europeanist will never admit it. You can recognize their butthurtness from their typical dogmatic/blasphemic Indo-Europeanists behavior.

[Ülev]

TuR1an stronk!


https://youtu.be/1k-0iF2GOv4

[Rethel]

This is exactly what I think, and what many academics wrote and still write, but hardcore inferiority-complexed Indo-Europeanist will never admit it. You can recognize their butthurtness from their typical dogmatic/blasphemic Indo-Europeanists behavior.

http://i.imgur.com/x1SxBuO.jpg

[Ülev]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Eurasian_steppe_belt.jpg

The Eurasian Steppe Belt (in lightblue colour on the map), a path of passage for cultures — a possible origin for the Indo-European languages, the domesticated horse, the wheel and chariot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe

Sir Rethel, saddle up the horses

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Naadam_rider_2.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

http://i.imgur.com/x1SxBuO.jpg

the best answer to blasphemy is... guess what? exactly... blasphemy. don't play the gangster here, I know I hit you.

[Rethel]

the best answer to blasphemy is... guess what? exactly... blasphemy. don't play the gangster here, I know I hit you.

:picard2:

[Proto-Shaman]

:picard2:
Very typical for hardcore Indo-Europeanists: never ever admit that you could be even 0,1% wrong.

[Ülev]

Very typical for hardcore Indo-Europeanists: never ever admit that you could be even 0,1% wrong.

nothing surprising - true Tu-R1a-n man inside

[Rethel]

Very typical for hardcore Indo-Europeanists: never ever admit that you could be even 0,1% wrong.

I would gladly admit, that I am wrong, only firstly, I would have to know it.

[Proto-Shaman]

I would gladly admit, that I am wrong, only firstly, I would have to know it.
Knowing is one thing, interpretation is another thing.