Correct Way to Identify Ancestry

[Learning_Genetics]

Speaking to people from Slavic countries taught me that the British and American way of identifying ancestry is actually incorrect. Typically we like to say we are fully English, or half English and half German, or one quarter Russian and three quarters Scottish, etc. However, Slavs have told me that it is actually your paternal line that determines your ethnicity. Upon further research I have found this to be inherently true among most traditional cultures, both in Europe and Asia.

I accept this view of identity as a paternal inheritance.

However, what I do not understand is whether or not this idea of ancestry stops a person recognising their non-paternal lines of descent. For example, you can say that you are English because that is what your father is, but can you also recognise your German/Russian/Lithuanian, maternal ancestry as well? Or should you only recognise your paternal ethnicity? And also, is it the case that once a woman marries outside her nation, she adopts the ethnicity of her husband?

From a modern point of view, do we recognise non-paternal lines, for example, in genetic research?

Thank you for all your help in explaining to me the traditional ways.

[Ilma]

Not going to help further but if maternal line was pointless, how come autosomal DNA is teaching us enough about our ancestry anyway ? Women pass their genes as well and their ancestry has also an impact on the DNA of their children. They will never pass Y haplogroup but the rest is important enough to determine your ethnicity IMO.

What about jews for example, recognizing you are jew from mother line ?

[Philip Latinowitz]

It's simple as that, you are what your father is. I am speaking about ethnic identity in classical sense, ofcourse woman genetics determine child origin too, but in majority of world peternal lineage matters most. Jews are exception in this.

[Marusya]

Ok, my father is 100% Ukrainian ancestry. His parents were born and raised in Ukraine, immigrating to the USA in early adulthood. What does that make me? Ukrainian? (My mother is British Isles ancestry 100% but her ancestors arrived in USA in 18th century.)

[Philip Latinowitz]

Ok, my father is 100% Ukrainian ancestry. His parents were born and raised in Ukraine, immigrating to the USA in early adulthood. What does that make me? Ukrainian? (My mother is British Isles ancestry 100% but her ancestors arrived in USA in 18th century.)

You're Ukrainian assuming you're able to speak in your father's language.

[Ilma]

It's simple as that, you are what your father is. I am speaking about ethnic identity in classical sense, ofcourse woman genetics determine child origin too, but in majority of world peternal lineage matters most. Jews are exception in this.

As a woman I don't consider myself as same ethnicity as my father (I consider both sides : father and mother) because anyway I won't pass anything from my father paternal side to my children as a woman, is that correct ? :)

[Marusya]

You're Ukrainian assuming you're able to speak in your father's language.

No, I cannot speak Ukrainian. I'm waiting for the "Learn Ukrainian while you Sleep" course. :D

[Philip Latinowitz]

As a woman I don't consider myself as same ethnicity as my father (I consider both sides : father and mother) because anyway I won't pass anything from my father paternal side to my children as a woman, is that correct ? :)

Well Ilma, at least you carry your fathers surname :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Not going to help further but if maternal line was pointless, how come autosomal DNA is teaching us enough about our ancestry anyway ? Women pass their genes as well and their ancestry has also an impact on the DNA of their children. They will never pass Y haplogroup but the rest is important enough to determine your ethnicity IMO.

What about jews for example, recognizing you are jew from mother line ?

Women pass on their mtdna as well which converts chemical energy from food to a form cells use. Don't forget about the X chromosome which is passed on from the mother. In daughters they get an X chromosome from their mother and also their father (who got it from his mother). So we females carry the X chromosomes of both our Grandmothers. On 23andMe one of my X chromosomes was British&Irish and also Unspecified Northwest European and the other X chromosome was completely French & German (this was the one I got from my mother).

Here's the size of the X chromosome compared to the Y chromosome. The X chromosome contains hundreds more genes than the Y chromosome.

http://www.karakalpak.com/images/xandy.jpg

I'm still very interested in my father's ydna and have had 111 strs and snp testing done on my brother (father is deceased) at FTDNA. I've also had the FMS done on my mtdna. Both are interesting.

[Ilma]

Well Ilma, at least you carry your fathers surname :)

Both, father and mother :) But I won't pass it to my children neither haha.


Women pass on their mtdna as well which converts chemical energy from food to a form cells use. Don't forget about the X chromosome which is passed on from the mother. In daughters they get an X chromosome from their mother and also their father (who got it from his mother).

Here's the size of the X chromosome compared to the Y chromosome. The X chromosome contains hundreds more genes than the Y chromosome.

http://www.karakalpak.com/images/xandy.jpg

I'm still very interested in my father's ydna and have had 111 strs and snp testing done on my brother (father is deceased) at FTDNA. I've also had the FMS done on my mtdna. Both are interesting.

As I've heard that mitochondrial DNA is pointless to track ancestry and to define ethnicity I didn't even mention it but you're right. Didn't know all of that, good point :)

[Grace O'Malley]

Both, father and mother :) But I won't pass it to my children neither haha.



As I've heard that mitochondrial DNA is pointless to track ancestry and to define ethnicity I didn't even mention it but you're right. Didn't know all of that, good point :)

I've found my mtdna really interesting. On the Full Mitochondrial Sequence I have a full match to someone whose last known ancestor was in Wexford. I have a 1 step match to 2 Norwegians and a 1 step match to another in the Russian Federation.

[Bezprym]

However, Slavs have told me that it is actually your paternal line that determines your ethnicity.

Looks like you met a Slavic vampire born in the Middle Ages. 99% of us are modern.

Both lines are equally important in general. It is obvious, however, that the most influencial is environment in which person grows up and which forges the character features of the individual.

[Profileid]

lol @ learning anything from Slavs.

Anyways, it's bullshit. I'm more culturally similar to my mother's side than father's.

[Ylla]

I identify more with mother's family (culturally) than with my father's, you can identify how you like, there should be no rules such as this.

[cosmoo]

In 95% of traditional societies you identify with your paternal line as long as your mother is of ethnicity at least somewhat related to your father's.
For example, any man with mother from some other European country would be counted as what he is by his father's line here. Things would sharply change if his mother's origin was from different continent, though. This also represents my view on this matter.
I identify more with my father's lineage, as I can track my ancestry way better that way, and it also determines your sub-clan ("bratstvo") and clan.

[Kriptc06]

If i am what my fathers father father father is, than I am a swarty spaniard XD.

Rethel approves!

[Pennywise]

"You are what your father is" mentality is the classical patriarchal mindset to determine one's idendity in case of having parents from different ethnic/religious backgounds. But it doesn't matter as long as your parents are from the same ethnicity. But in this case, you identify with your father's hometown and his family's traditions.

[Sacrificed Ram]

IMPOSSIBLE!

What you inherit in your genetic is randomic. You can have a french grandfather and a russian great-grandmother, but your autossomal genetic shows 25% russian and 12,5 french.

But if you is talking about ethnical identity, it does have nothing with genetic. Possible you ethnical identity is related with enviroment you rised (from your family to your co-workers).

[cosmoo]

IMPOSSIBLE!

What you inherit in your genetic is randomic. You can have a french grandfather and a russian great-grandmother, but your autossomal genetic shows 25% russian and 12,5 french.

But if you is talking about ethnical identity, it does have nothing with genetic. Possible you ethnical identity is related with enviroment you rised (from your family to your co-workers).

Those autosomal analyses only show you degree of "matching" certain populations, not your real ancestry. You can match some population extremely well while having exactly 0% of ancestors hailing from that country. That's why those analyses are, for most of the time, pointless.

[Sikeliot]

Historically it was definitely true. In ancient Sicily the child of a Greek father and an Elymian, Sicanian, Phoenician, Siculi, etc. mother was considered to be Greek, which is why you ended up with a whole island of "Greeks" after they colonized and took the native people as wives.

Same in Crete, in the Middle East, etc.

[Smitty]

That would make me Luxembourgian (probably). I can't say that makes sense, given I'm only 3%. At some point, that identity has to be replaced by the dominating one, right? What about a man who takes on a new "tribe" (nationality)? That's really what we're talking about here, I think.

[Not a Cop]

That would make me Luxembourgian (probably). I can't say that makes sense, given I'm only 3%. At some point, that identity has to be replaced by the dominating one, right? What about a man who takes on a new "tribe" (nationality)? That's really what we're talking about here, I think.

That's because "British and American way" is simply based on American way which is so because of the fact that White Americans are a bunch of people with similar culture, but mixed ethnic orgin, while in old wolrd, especially in more traditional cultures male takes a wife out of her family and implies his culte on wife and offsprings.

[Smitty]

That's because "British and American way" is simply based on American way which is so because of the fact that White Americans are a bunch of people with similar culture, but mixed ethnic orgin, while in old wolrd, especially in more traditional cultures male takes a wife out of her family and implies his culte on wife and offsprings.

So it's more about culture? Should a Dutchman who moved to Finland and marries a Finn consider himself and his children Dutch or Finnish?

[Not a Cop]

So it's more about culture? Should a Dutchman who moved to Finland and marries a Finn consider himself and his children Dutch or Finnish?

Obviously ethnicity is very much a culture.

About Dutchman in Finland, i don't know, Mannerheim always reffered as a German or a Swede.

[Learning_Genetics]

And does the old world way of identifying ancestry give any recognition to the mother's ancestry and ethnicity, or do children only inherit their legacy from their father?

[Heather Duval]

so now i am for sure german

[Peterski]

Mannerheim always reffered as a German or a Swede.

Mannerheim's family was descended from German immigrants who had settled in Sweden.

Later that family from Sweden (descended from German immigrants) moved to Finland.

[Oneeye]

What people aren't getting here.. is that this mentality is that of a woman leaving her people to live with a man and his people, in a much smaller world.

In the USA, we have it completely different, as both a man and woman "leave" and become their own.

[Wanderer]

I disagree with this viewpoint. It's not always true. My direct paternal line is Italian*. But in terms of ancestry I am more Ukrainian than anything else. Ultimately, I find that I side with Ukraine above all.

*Italian-American, really. There's nothing left in terms of Italian culture from my paternal side. I would just default to an American (albeit Italian-American) identity if it were true that the paternal line always comes first. In reality, while I do identify with this heritage, it just doesn't mean what Ukraine does to me.

[Wanderer]

I disagree with this viewpoint. It's not always true. My direct paternal line is Italian*. But in terms of ancestry I am more Ukrainian than anything else. Ultimately, I find that I side with Ukraine above all.

*Italian-American, really. There's nothing left in terms of Italian culture from my paternal side. I would just default to an American (albeit Italian-American) identity if it were true that the paternal line always comes first. In reality, while I do identify with this heritage, it just doesn't mean what Ukraine does to me.

While I still don't really agree with this viewpoint, it works for me. So I'm Italian. That's great. There's nothing better I could ask for.

In response to my quoted post, I'll never be anti-Ukrainian. But I think I wanted Ukraine to mean more to me than it naturally would. I can't solve Ukraine's problems. And to really be a Ukrainian nationalist, it would have to be the essence of my being, which it really isn't.

For someone like me... I'm an American. Plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that. This is the greatest country in the world. I love this country most of all. As I indicated earlier, my ancestry connects me to America. I'm proud, for example, that Italian-Americans were disproportionately represented in the armed forces in WWI & WWII. I'm proud that in the case of the latter, Italian-Americans jettisoned any affection whatsoever for Mussolini upon the American entry into the war, and sided as unanimously as a single ethnic group conceivably could with the United States of America. When you account for that, plus the Italian-American (immigrant and immigrant-descended) cultural influences, plus the Italian influence on the foundations of America (e.g., Columbus, the Roman inspirations of the Founding Fathers, etc.), there is--ultimately--no ethnic reason we cannot call this country our own.

Yeah, I am kind of prone to experiencing paradigm shifts. So be it. Generally, it's an evolution of sentiments I've already had.

[Miekka]

In the USA, we have it completely different, as both a man and woman "leave" and become their own.

Become their "own" what? That's a veritably touching story and while it warms my heart to hear it, that lack of any coherent identity and tribalism will be and/or is part and parcel of the American Empire's downfall.


So I'm Italian. That's great. There's nothing better I could ask for.

So you invest years into role-playing as the e-vanguard of Ukrainian nationalism on numerous forums, composing paragraphs upon paragraphs of pseudo-intellectual drivel to further your alleged cause. I can only wonder if you regret any of it and long for the ability to regain the, undoubtedly, thousands of hours wasted on this former project of yours....... and today you decide that you're an Italian-American. You have now ascended to the ranks of yet another forum legend, a parody of an already tasteless and dull parody, a complete joke. :picard1: :heh::rofl:

https://i.imgur.com/LhIpbkA.jpg

[Wanderer]

I can only wonder if you regret any of it

I don't regret it, not totally. It's been part of my own ideological evolution. In a roundabout way, I don't think I would have developed my current sentiments without their antecedents.