The Aesirs Came from Asia

[Äike]

The Aesirs Came from Asia (http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dan1.htm) :rolleyes:

When I came to China ten years ago, I met my wife and her girlfriends. The teased me, because I drank so much water, they said. You know, westerners drink water to the food, and they make sure they get enough water, when it is hot. They called me something like "swe'e tung", it means heavy from water, or full of water. I was surprised, that the word "tung" means the same in Danish as in Chinese (heavy).

So I remembered the well known joke making fun with Chinese language, in which a policeman beats a pickpocket with a "lang tung ting" ( Danish, meaning a "long heavy thing")

Well, then how do you say "long"? I asked. Long is called "trang", they answered. This means "narrow" in Danish. Also this meaning is not so far from Danish, when something is long, it is by its logical nature also relatively narrow in the other dimension.

Water, "swe-e", was also rather close. It sounds completely as saying "sweat" in the Danish dialect of the Funen island. It is also something with water.

China calls itself "Zhong Guo", pronounced "djung gjår" with Danish letters. It does indeed mean the "Center Country". The Nordic gods created also a "Center Country" as a home for the humans. They named it "Mid-gård" (Middle Earth). Both the first and the second part of the word have the same meaning in Chinese and in Scandinavian as well. The last part of the words is also pronounced very similar in both languages.

All this appeared for me very strange, Danish and Chinese should for me be something so totally different, I had always been told.

Since then I have collected words, quotes, history, everything that can illustrate the link between Denmark and China in the early history. I've sorted, systematized, concluded and put it up in reasonable logical order. I hope someone can enjoy reading it.

http://www.dandebat.dk/images/139p.jpg
Drawing representing Snorre Sturlason from an illustration in a modern publishing of his sagas. Reality is that nobody knew, how he looked like.

The Icelandic saga writer Snorre Sturlason told, that the Aesirs came from Asia. He called them "the Asia Men". Snorre lived hundreds of years closer to the actual events, than we do, and especially he lived before, the Christian tradition turned all history prior to Christianity into some unimportant, outdated pagan stories. Many traditional oral stories and manuscripts must surely have been lost in the early Christian period. In the time of Snorre and Saxo, the traditional stories, handed down from our ancestors, must have been much more alive.

So, why not believe them. They were serious men, who carefully wrote down, what they have been told.

Snorre wrote, that the Aesirs came from Asia. In Asia was, according to his Edda Saga, "Midle Earth" situated.

The Norman history writer, Dudo, wrote, that the Danes came from "Svitjod". He must have ment, the "Great Svitjod", now a days Russia and the endless steppes in the east.

The Danes, also called the Aesirs or the Asia-men, are known to have driven out the Heruls from their settlements in Scandinavia, or at least some of them. The Greek history writer, Prokopius, tells it. The displaced Heruls went south to the Roman Empire and earned their bread there as mercenaries. Unfortunately, their king died without leaving any sons. Therefore they sent a deputation back to the old country in Scandinavia, where some Heruls still lived. They wanted to get a new king of their ancient and holy royal family.

http://www.dandebat.dk/images/668p.jpg
The last stand of the houshold troops of the Herulian king Rolf Krake. - illustration in modern publishing of the saga.

In order to reach their relatives, the remaining Heruls, the deputation had to travel through the land of the Danes, that is their old country. At the time, before the Viking ships, the route up through Scandinavia probably have gone up through Jutland, crossing the narrow stream to Funen, crossing the bigger stream between Funen and Zealand and further on to Sweden and Norway.

Odense is the main town on the island of Funen. It is named after the god of the Aesirs, Odin, so it's very reasonable to assume, that it was on this island the Danes, also called the Aesirs, settled down, and that it was from here, the Heruls were displaced.

The Herulian deputation should therefore travel across Funen to go to the remaining Heruls, who then may have been living on Zealand or in Scania, or both.

In the History of the Langobards by Paul the Deacon is told about a Herul king named Rodulf, short of stature, who very much recalls Rolf Krake, a well known king of Zealand from Danish ancient history. And the legends about Rolf Krake and his royal family, called "Skjoldungerne" (it means something like "Shield Cubs"), are very closely connected to the island of Zealand and the city of "Lejre".

So it must with great probability has been like this, that the Herulian delegation travelled through Jutland and across Funen and then they came to an island, Zealand, which still was inhabited by their fellow Heruls, still ruled by kings of the old Herulian royal family.

In eastern Funen is a village called "Herrested". From the mediaval document, "Valdemars Jordebog", it is known, that it was before called "Herrul-sted". This means that the special thing about this place, in contrast to the rest of Funen, was that some Heruls still lived here.

The suffix "-sted" is most often linked to place names from 200 to 500 AC. If Heruls had been living everywhere on the island at this time, there would have been no reason to call a certain village "Herrul-sted". So we can assume, that the rest of the island was no longer populated by Heruls. The Danes, also called the Aesirs, had settled down on the island.

http://www.dandebat.dk/images/473p.jpg
Odense has been named after Odin.

They built a fortress in the middles of the island, which they called Odins-oye. It was named after the god, "Odin", and "-oye" meant "island", perhaps it was surrounded by the river for defence purpose.

The term Odins-oye were used by Snorre (see: Flemming Rickfors). Try to say "Odins-oye" 20 times in succession, and it will sound like "Odense", the modern main city of the island of Funen.

Snorre wrote, that "Vodin broke up from the Turk Land, and with him he had a large troop of old and young people, men and women, and with them they had many precious things. And everywhere, they travelled over the land; they were hold in high esteem. They seemed to be more like gods than like humans. And they did not stop their journey, until they came to the north of the country, now named Sax-land. Here Odin dwelled for a long time and conquered to a great extend this land. Odin assigned three of his sons as rulers over this country. Vegdegg ruled East Saxland, Beldeg ruled Vestfal and Seggi ruled over Frakkland. "From all these great and many powerful families had come." Snorre wrote. He noted, that Veggdeg was the great-grandfather to Hejngest.

Assuming that it was this Hejngest, who was the Saxon king, who conquered England in 450 AC; That would imply, that Odin and his men may have come to the middle of Funen perhaps around 350 - 400AC. But this is all very uncertain, may be Snorre just meant, that Hejngest descended from Veggdeg.

http://www.dandebat.dk/images/211p.jpg
Waggon train of American settlers at Santa Fe.

Some may argue, that it is the most unrealistic theory, they have ever heard. Travelling from Asia to Scandinavia two thousand years ago, before the modern means of transport, it could not be done. It is too far and the terrain was too difficult.

But try to consider how the American settlers came from the Mississippi area to Oregon and California. They also travelled over long distances, through deserts and over mountains. The journey to Oregon could be done in three to six months. The settlers' technology was wagons with large wheels, drawn by mules or oxes. This technology was in general also available for Dan of the Aesirs descent two thousand years ago. It was entirely possible to travel from the heart of Asia to Scandinavia in a reasonable short span of years.

[Arya Stark]

interesting post, I shall further it on google some time . tänan teid!

[Pallantides]

Danish boy got a dose of yellow fever.:p

[Osweo]

Isn't there a thread somewhere to post your 'stupidest website of the day'?

[Peasant]

Osweo explains:
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7889/ss20101027005444.jpg

PS: my avatar is a viking

[Osweo]

Osweo explains:
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7889/ss20101027005444.jpg


I ...

I don't believe it... :eek:

:suomut:


... I mispelt ancestOr.

:cry2

[SwordoftheVistula]

I don't see why this is so 'unbelievable', nor does it mean they were racially oriental. It's entirely possible that a group of people migrated from what is now central Asia or the Russian Steppes into Scandinavia and became a dominant force there, before migrating on to other places.

[Cato]

IIRC, Saxo has the yarn that Odin was a son of Priam from the Troad (1200bce) rather than a denizen of Roman-era Asia Minor.

[Curtis24]

very interesting, regardless of accuracy. what archeological sites are associated with the aesir?

[Osweo]

very interesting, regardless of accuracy. what archeological sites are associated with the aesir?
Those linked with them are rather few, but some scholars have linked them with the Santaklauskaya Culture.

IIRC, Saxo has the yarn that Odin was a son of Priam from the Troad (1200bce) rather than a denizen of Roman-era Asia Minor.
Um... so?

I don't see why this is so 'unbelievable', nor does it mean they were racially oriental. It's entirely possible that a group of people migrated from what is now central Asia or the Russian Steppes into Scandinavia and became a dominant force there, before migrating on to other places.
There is NOTHING to indicate that we should have the slightest suspicion of something like this going on.

Moreover, the Aesir are GODS. FFS...

[Aemma]

Those linked with them are rather few, but some scholars have linked them with the Santaklauskaya Culture.

Um... so?

There is NOTHING to indicate that we should have the slightest suspicion of something like this going on.

Moreover, the Aesir are GODS. FFS...

:) Ahh Ossi. I can just picture that exploding head smiley right now. ;) :D

Yes although the Aesir are GODS, it is not uncommon in tribal/ancestral religions for descendants to have deified their ancestors to that degree. Just throwing that out there. :P

Godhood, being what it is, appears to be a complex subject afterall. :D

[Cato]

Um... so?



One theory that I've read about reagarding Odin (and the Aesir to a lesser extent) is that he was a son of Priam, king of Troy, circa 1200bce.

Another theory that I've also read is that Odin was actually a follower of King Mithridates of Pontus, who was beaten into the dust by Sulla Felix in the 70s or so bce.

A huge difference in time and space, and probably about as likely as one more theory I've read about Odin: he was some sort of progeny of the exiled Hebrews of the northern kingdom of Israel, sent into exile by the king of the Assyrians in the 700s/600s bce.

[Aemma]

One theory that I've read about reagarding Odin (and the Aesir to a lesser extent) is that he was a son of Priam, king of Troy, circa 1200bce.

Another theory that I've also read is that Odin was actually a follower of King Mithridates of Pontus, who was beaten into the dust by Sulla Felix in the 70s or so bce.

A huge difference in time and space, and probably about as likely as one more theory I've read about Odin: he was some sort of progeny of the exiled Hebrews of the northern kingdom of Israel, sent into exile by the king of the Assyrians in the 700s/600s bce.

What? :D

[Heimmacht]

What? :D

I second that... :confused:

[Nodens]

What? :D

See here. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5814)

[Cato]

You all just need to read into the esoterica of the various Bible-believing peoples, who'll often grasp at any straw to justify their religion(s).

I think it goes something like this.

Odin = Adon (or Adonis).
Adon was one of the titles of Baal.
Baal was worshipped by the Israelites in the northern Hebrew kingdom of Israel.
When the northern kingdom of Israel was defeated by the Assyrians, they took their deities (Baal/Adonis) with them into national exile.
Eventually, these exiled Hebrews wound up in north/central Europe and became the ancestors of the Germanic race (or intermingled with the ancestors of said people).
Hence, Odin = Adon = Baal.

This might explain why some of these folks think that the runes derive from, ahem, Hebrew/Phoenician script.

Or somesuch. I think it's a bit of British Israelism?! :confused:

[Heimmacht]

You all just need to read into the esoterica of the various Bible-believing peoples, who'll often grasp at any straw to justify their religion(s).

I think it goes something like this.

Odin = Adon (or Adonis).
Adon was one of the titles of Baal.
Baal was worshipped by the Israelites in the northern Hebrew kingdom of Israel.
When the northern kingdom of Israel was defeated by the Assyrians, they took their deities (Baal/Adonis) with them into national exile.
Eventually, these exiled Hebrews wound up in north/central Europe and became the ancestors of the Germanic race (or intermingled with the ancestors of said people).
Hence, Odin = Adon = Baal.

This might explain why some of these folks think that the runes derive from, ahem, Hebrew/Phoenician script.

Or somesuch. I think it's a bit of British Israelism?! :confused:

Ahh, well personally I stopped reading stuff like that, it is all speculating what these people are doing. I try to find different saga's (from the same cultural-root obviously) and compare them, and ofcourse more archeological/scientific stuff and then make up my mind.

These esoteric people usually are guided by their own feelings toward cultural history, or have an agenda. (wether it is money or getting as much followers of a certain hyphotesis)

[Cato]

Ahh, well personally I stopped reading stuff like that, it is all speculating what these people are doing. I try to find different saga's (from the same cultural-root obviously) and compare them, and ofcourse more archeological/scientific stuff and then make up my mind.

These esoteric people usually are guided by their own feelings toward cultural history, or have an agenda. (wether it is money or getting as much followers of a certain hyphotesis)

There's this rabbi from Israeli who operates a website (http://britam.org/) who has a thesis that western Europeans are the distant progeny of the "ten lost tribes" of the northern kingdom of Israel (with Jews being the progeny of the southern kingdom of Judah). Basically, despite all of the elaborate attempts that the rabbi makes, and he's written many books (I've read a portion of one, and it was good in a way and well-researched, but also naive), it's just about "Gentiles should support Jews and Israel because we have the same ancestors."

Such attempts come across as purely political statements more than anything else, with God and religion being less important than whatever agenda the theorists have.

[Osweo]

:) Ahh Ossi. I can just picture that exploding head smiley right now. ;) :D
Too right. I wonder if it can be embedded here? :p

Let me try;
:@

Damn, no. :cry2

Yes although the Aesir are GODS, it is not uncommon in tribal/ancestral religions for descendants to have deified their ancestors to that degree. Just throwing that out there. :P
Is it REALLY, though? :sherlock:

That seems a grossly schematising approach to the rich variety of religious systems in the real world, possibly grounded in a 'progressive' ideology's way of looking at such things. ;)

Can you give ONE likely example of such a deification in our part of the world? I don't think it can be done.

The state cults of the Mediterranean are a QUITE different matters.

Ours even provided for the celebration of great individuals as heroes WITHOUT the need to deify them.

One theory that I've read
Christ... Have you heard of the notion of 'denying x the oxygen of publicity'? It's quite valid here. If you know of BULLSHIT, don't scoop it up and waft it around in front of as many people as you can. Bag it and bin it, as they say on the council's posters on dog shit in public areas. :D

[Psychonaut]

Is it REALLY, though? :sherlock:

That seems a grossly schematising approach to the rich variety of religious systems in the real world, possibly grounded in a 'progressive' ideology's way of looking at such things. ;)

Can you give ONE likely example of such a deification in our part of the world? I don't think it can be done.

Aye. I think we can safely say that the ancestralization of deities, like we see in the old royal genealogies who go back to the Gods, is quite a different animal than the deification of ancestors.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Osweo
Can you give ONE likely example of such a deification in our part of the world? I don't think it can be done.

Nothing concrete but then given the nature of the sources we have to deal with (how old, how reliable, how accurate, how influenced by Christian and/or Classical input) and the more-or-less dead nature of overt Pagan religion in northern Europe after c.AD1000 definite facts are few.

Some have speculated on the Germanic deities as deified ancestors Bill Griffiths and Richard North have written bits on this possibility. North even speculates that the idea of Woden as an ancestor was an Anglo-Saxon development transmitted back to Norway.

The take on Snorri is, in my view, no more than reading the “official disclaimer” and taking it as gospel simply the influence of Christian-Classical culture, which probably influenced what was recorded in the Edda far more than we often imagine, I’m often inclined to treat it in the same light as the bulk of collected British legends going back to the settlement of Britain by Trojans or Milton’s epic mixing Christian and Pagan at a drop of a hat. Useful……..up to a point.

The problem is modern Heathens cannot possibly know what our pre-Christian, pre-Classical influenced ancestors understood by "God". Certainly not the Christian deity and, I suspect, quite far from the Olympians.

[Piparskeggr]

http://www.clunk.org.uk/forums/images/smilies/exploding_head.gif

[SwordoftheVistula]

I think we can safely say that the ancestralization of deities, like we see in the old royal genealogies who go back to the Gods, is quite a different animal than the deification of ancestors.

How do you know which is which though?


A. Assorted kings at some point made up a fictional character to be descended from.

B. Over time, the warlord from which assorted kings were descended was attributed increasingly magical and legendary powers.


At any rate, any revival of northern European heathen/pagan religion should place Chuck Norris at the top of the pantheon.

[Psychonaut]

How do you know which is which though?

In a vacuum it might be difficult to tell, but the field of comparative mythography lets us put religious evolution in historical context and we can easily see that the Æsir have "siblings" in other IE pantheons, which lets us chart the entrance of the Æsir into the North alongside the Germanic migrations up there. That's speaking of that one particular example though; uncovering the ultimate origin of a cultural representation of a deity whose form is not a naturally occurring phenomenon, like Odin, is probably not possible since the events would've occurred far outside the scope of recorded history.

[Aemma]

Aye. I think we can safely say that the ancestralization of deities, like we see in the old royal genealogies who go back to the Gods, is quite a different animal than the deification of ancestors.

I honestly don't see much of a difference to some degree however. :shrug:

Might it not be at all possible that the ancestralization of deities indeed started with the deification of ancestors? They do seem to be the flip side of the same coin to some degree.

[Aemma]

How do you know which is which though?


A. Assorted kings at some point made up a fictional character to be descended from.

B. Over time, the warlord from which assorted kings were descended was attributed increasingly magical and legendary powers.


At any rate, any revival of northern European heathen/pagan religion should place Chuck Norris at the top of the pantheon.

Oh geez... :D

[Pallantides]

I have noticed that a few Scandinavians score some Asian precentages on genetic analysis(god genes?:D)

[Psychonaut]

I honestly don't see much of a difference to some degree however. :shrug:

Might it not be at all possible that the ancestralization of deities indeed started with the deification of ancestors? They do seem to be the flip side of the same coin to some degree.

Some of it could've started that way, but surely not all. In cultures where, for instance, people ancestralize the sun deity—we can be pretty sure that this is not a case of an ancestor being turned into the sun, since solar worship is one of the oldest kinds of religion.

[Loki]

I agree with Aemma. Odin etc were very likely genuine characters who were mythified over many many generations. Easy to happen if there is no written language.

I also don't see what the fuss is about the Aesir originating in Asia. So what if they were? It's not an insult or anything.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Umm, aren't the Aesirs a fictional figure?

[Loki]

Umm, aren't the Aesirs a fictional figure?

Isn't Jesus a fictional figure?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Isn't Jesus a fictional figure?

He is. What's not proven is fictional.

[Grumpy Cat]

Well Indo-Europeans migrated to Europe from Asia so maybe the Aesir were their leaders and they were mythified.

[Aemma]

Some of it could've started that way, but surely not all. In cultures where, for instance, people ancestralize the sun deity—we can be pretty sure that this is not a case of an ancestor being turned into the sun, since solar worship is one of the oldest kinds of religion.

Ahh I see what you mean. Well of course not that class of deities, no. I thought that was pretty much a given. :P I was talking about the more human-like deities.

I knew Ellis had something to say about this:

See The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature, chapter on the Cult of the Dead:


Direct statements recording the worship of men after death are naturally not very plentiful. However they do exist. One version of Landnamabok tells us that sacrifices were made to a man called Grimr (grandfather of a certain Thorolfr Smjor and great-great-grandfather of one of the early Icelandic settlers) 'on account of his popularity, and he was called Kamban'.

Professor Chadwick compares with this a statement made by Adam of Brermen about the Swedes who, he says, make gods out of men and worship them (colunt et deos ex hominibus); it seems as though Adam must be thinking of the worship of men after death, since he instances the story of the deification of a king Ericus told in the Life of St. Anskar. There are also mentions of family cults among Prussians, which may be of the same kind as these Swedish ones; and it is indeed possible that some cult on the lines of those of the dead ancestors in the mountains is meant. However as it stands the brief comment from Landnamabok does little but arouse our curiosity. Then there is the well-known passage from Halfdanar Saga Svarta in Heimskringla (IX), telling of the burial of King Halfdan:

His reign had been more fortunate in the seasons and crops than those of all other kings. So much trust was placed in him that, when they learned he was dead and his body carried to Hringariki to be buried, there came influential men from Raumariki and Vestfold and Heidmork, all begging to have the body and bury it in their own district; for they thought it would ensure prosperous seasons if they could obtain it. So it was decided that they should divide the body between four places; the head was laid in a howe at Stein in Hringariki, and each man bore home a part of the body and laid it in howe; these howes are called 'the howes of Halfdan'.

It is possible that this passage owes something to antiquarian speculation and the desire to find an explanation of the number of burial places bearing the name of one king; but in any case the direct connection made between the body of the dead man and the fertility of the earth is significant; so also is the additional remark found in the Flateyjarbok: 'And many people sacrificed and believed in them until it was forbidden by his kinsmen' (1, 456).

A more convincing piece of evidence for the worship of the dead however is found elsewhere in Flateyjarbok, in the story of Olaf Geirstadaalfr.

...

Seen through the somewhat unsympathetic eyes of a later writer though it is, this story does, I think, establish an active cult of the dead in Scandinavia beyond question.

Elsewhere she states:


the worship of men after death was a notion by no means unfamiliar to the Norse mind.

[Aemma]

Umm, aren't the Aesirs a fictional figure?

LOL No, but I think Libre is! :D

[poiuytrewq0987]

LOL No, but I think Libre is! :D

Yeah, I am mysterious and all. It's pretty cool to be that, I think.

[Eldritch]

Isn't Jesus a fictional figure?

Actually most people who've studied the issue seem to be in agreement that Jesus of Nazareth was an actual historical person.

[Loki]

Actually most people who've studied the issue seem to be in agreement that Jesus of Nazareth was an actual historical person.

Which is my point. ;)

[Aemma]

He is. What's not proven is fictional.

Well not to totally derail this thread btw, there seems to be pretty strong evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed an historical figure. As to his godhood and he being the Christ well that's a theological debate and not an historical one. And quite frankly not in the purview of this thread.

[Eldritch]

Which is my point. ;)

Ah okay. Serves me right for not paying attention. :p

[Aemma]

Actually most people who've studied the issue seem to be in agreement that Jesus of Nazareth was an actual historical person.

Dang E.!! You beat me to it! LOL :D

[Osweo]

Well Indo-Europeans migrated to Europe from Asia so maybe the Aesir were their leaders and they were mythified.

That is far from concrete undisputed fact. It's damned depressing how many people think it is, and don't even question it.

IE has only the Aryan branch out east, Armenian, and the extinct Anatolian and Tokharian. By far the greater variety is seen in Europe, which is some good indication for its greater age and establishedness there. The Anatolians could easily have made their way from the Balkans or round the Black Sea somehow. The Tocharians and Aryans clearly rode into their territories from the north west. :shrug:

A Danubian Urheimat makes much more sense.

*********************************************
It is just possible that elements of historical saga became incorporated into myths on the Gods, but most of the mythology is clearly of a nature precluding this. The deities can much more convincingly be viewed as functions within a cosmological structure, as personified aspects or archetypes, ... as GODS!

[Curtis24]

You mean you don't believe that proto-Indo-European is from Northern India? *sarcasm*

[Nodens]

That is far from concrete undisputed fact. It's damned depressing how many people think it is, and don't even question it.

IE has only the Aryan branch out east, Armenian, and the extinct Anatolian and Tokharian. By far the greater variety is seen in Europe, which is some good indication for its greater age and establishedness there. The Anatolians could easily have made their way from the Balkans or round the Black Sea somehow. The Tocharians and Aryans clearly rode into their territories from the north west. :shrug:

A Danubian Urheimat makes much more sense.

Or you could've just pointed out that the Pontic-Caspian steppe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis) is largely within Europe.

The Anatolian hypothesis is the only credible extra-European IE origin proposal (and barely counts as extra-European).

[Osweo]

Or you could've just pointed out that the Pontic-Caspian steppe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis) is largely within Europe.

The Anatolian hypothesis is the only credible extra-European IE origin proposal (and barely counts as extra-European).

I don't buy either the Dneprovian OR the Anatolian.

The first is problematic from a flora and fauna point of view, as well as the logistics of being able to so well penetrated a well-populated Balkans (who speaks Bulgar there now, Hunnic or Sarmatian?)

The latter, well, I just can't find ROOM to squeeze IE into Anatolia, with all the Kartvelians, Hurrians, Hattians, Pelasgians and co. already there.

It's gotta be the lower Danube. :p

[Aemma]

It is just possible that elements of historical saga became incorporated into myths on the Gods,

I wouldn't exactly argue with Madame Ellis on her research. She knows of what she speaks. :D



but most of the mythology is clearly of a nature precluding this.

Is it? Whose mythology?

I'm not much interested in the mythology of other Folk at this point in time for the very reason that trying to work through my own Folkish Heathen ideology does not necessitate a comparative approach. That can come later. I think looking at other folks' various mythologies only serve to dilute the fabrication of an understanding of a more Germanic worldview.


The deities can much more convincingly be viewed as functions within a cosmological structure, as personified aspects or archetypes, ... as GODS!

It can, certainly. But this is by far not the definitive way. There are other points of view that are just as valid.

It comes back to what I said previously in this thread: Godhead is a complex thing. There is still, luckily, some disagreement out in the heathen community as to what is the nature of 'Godliness'. I tend to like it that way.

[Osweo]

Who authored this Oss? :D

er... me? :confused:

[Pallantides]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Haplogroup_Q_(Y-DNA).PNG

[Loki]

A Danubian Urheimat makes much more sense.


Just because its location is in Europe?

If we're talking about Urheimat, then it is eventually Africa I suppose. Where in history is the cut-off point?

[Guapo]

I don't buy either the Dneprovian OR the Anatolian.

The first is problematic from a flora and fauna point of view, as well as the logistics of being able to so well penetrated a well-populated Balkans (who speaks Bulgar there now, Hunnic or Sarmatian?)

The latter, well, I just can't find ROOM to squeeze IE into Anatolia, with all the Kartvelians, Hurrians, Hattians, Pelasgians and co. already there.

It's gotta be the lower Danube. :p

I'd say this is the most plausible answer.


Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone

[Osweo]

Just because its location is in Europe?
I'm not excessively bothered about the PIE speakers having lived in Europe or NW or C Asia. The Asian areas in question were hardly racially alien at the period in question anyway. There's no racist motive at work in my supporting the Danubian Basin (or conceivably the northern part of it, spreading into the Ruthenian area) theory.

If we're talking about Urheimat, then it is eventually Africa I suppose. Where in history is the cut-off point?
PIE is a very precisely defined entity. It is the LAST common ancestor of all the languages deemed IE. The earliest 'splitters' were those who left the common region to become the Anatolian speakers (Hittite, Lydian, Lycian, Luwian, etc. (the Rich Croesus was one, and Midas with the Ass's ears)). All the rest, from Aryan to Erin, were still in a fairly tight bundle when that happened. This is LONG after any hypothetical wanderings from Africa.

I wouldn't exactly argue with Madame Ellis on her research. She knows of what she speaks. :D
Forgive me for not genuflecting at mention of her name. ;)

She quotes examples of veneration of particularly noted men. But none of these became universal across Germandom. It seems to me that there is a certain number of 'slots' to fill, and when they're taken you're not going to get anything new added without messing up the whole structure. Grimr Kamban ('crooked legs'?! :p) was of local importance. In exceptionally lucky circumstances, a few of his exploits might have ended up merged in story with those of the established deities, but the Germani don't seem to have been mad on multiplying their gods like some other peoples. The references to the veneration of Halfdan are not explicit in full deification terms either. He was seen as great in holiness, but does this make a god? Men can be particularly holy, and be raised above other men in recognition of this, but there's still not a full elevation to the heady ranks of the AEsir. Think of Christian Saints as a parallel, Hebrew prophets and so on...

We have a locally venerated dead king. And yet this is a long way off from a Thunor or Frig. Ellis sees a 'cult of the dead' at work, and though the dead can be powerful, they are not accorded a universally relevant position.


I suppose Woden is the best candidate for a deified man in the Northern tradition, or a God who has at least had some great Hero grafted onto him. This would have to have occured prior to the Proto-Germanic period. I'd say that his very name precludes it, though, as well as his exploits largely taking place out of mortal time and space.

Is it? Whose mythology?
Ours!

I'm not much interested in the mythology of other Folk at this point in time for the very reason that trying to work through my own Folkish Heathen ideology does not necessitate a comparative approach. That can come later. I think looking at other folks' various mythologies only serve to dilute the fabrication of an understanding of a more Germanic worldview.
:eek:

Though I'd hate to be seen to tell people to 'shop around' in this matter, it does seem inappropriate that a Hiberno-Gallo-Norman shouldn't at least have made a preliminary nod to the West before rushing headlong up North... ;)

It can, certainly. But this is by far not the definitive way. There are other points of view that are just as valid.
I gave no exhaustive list, just a few pointers in the right directions. Feel free to add!

It comes back to what I said previously in this thread: Godhead is a complex thing. There is still, luckily, some disagreement out in the heathen community as to what is the nature of 'Godliness'. I tend to like it that way.
:thumb001:
May 'heresy' never be a word of power among us!

[Loki]

PIE is a very precisely defined entity. It is the LAST common ancestor of all the languages deemed IE. The earliest 'splitters' were those who left the common region to become the Anatolian speakers (Hittite, Lydian, Lycian, Luwian, etc. (the Rich Croesus was one, and Midas with the Ass's ears)). All the rest, from Aryan to Erin, were still in a fairly tight bundle when that happened. This is LONG after any hypothetical wanderings from Africa.


Could be Anatolia then?

[Osweo]

Could be Anatolia then?

I seriously doubt it, and that's because of substrate.

The Hittites acknowledged that they were incomers to the region. The previous language 'Hatti' still survived, and the Hittite elite even used it for religious purposes (implying a great deal of mixing had occured since they arrived). Greece also has its Pelasgian substratum, revealed in names like Knossos and Corinth. The isle of Lemnos has an inscription in something very close to non-IE Etruscan, which shows what kind of languages we're dealing with there. Western Anatolia seems a reasonable place to look for the origins of Etruscan indeed. Toponymy links the Aegean area with the NE Caucasian language family, represented today by the Chechens and Dagestanis. Eastern Anatolia was home to the likewise nonIE Hurrians.

In short, there's no room for PIEans. All IE there is imported, and clear traces remain of their predecessors.

[Aemma]

Sigh...you're not quite getting the spirit of what I'm saying. And I don't think I'm deserving of the snide remarks either, Os. I expect others to be snide with me, not my own friends. I wasn't genuflecting at Ellis. I do however acknowledge that there are some people out there who have studied the subject matter and have a greater fix on certain things than I do. There is nothing wrong with having some humility in terms of other people's scholarship and maybe, just maybe, acknowledging that some other people might know a tad more than you do about some things?


And this:


Though I'd hate to be seen to tell people to 'shop around' in this matter, it does seem inappropriate that a Hiberno-Gallo-Norman shouldn't at least have made a preliminary nod to the West before rushing headlong up North... ;)

Cheap shot Ossi, especially from a friend, and not to mention a tad presumptious on your part. And what do you know about my spiritual path and adventures any way? And next you're going to tell me that I shouldn't even be a Germanic heathen? Then at the very least half of the so-called heathen population shouldn't be either, what for all the muggles that do exist in this community. That would include you and most of my Heathen friends here btw.

As for heresy, there are many Christian concepts that I no longer give much credence to. This is one of them.





Forgive me for not genuflecting at mention of her name. ;)

She quotes examples of veneration of particularly noted men. But none of these became universal across Germandom. It seems to me that there is a certain number of 'slots' to fill, and when they're taken you're not going to get anything new added without messing up the whole structure. Grimr Kamban ('crooked legs'?! :p) was of local importance. In exceptionally lucky circumstances, a few of his exploits might have ended up merged in story with those of the established deities, but the Germani don't seem to have been mad on multiplying their gods like some other peoples. The references to the veneration of Halfdan are not explicit in full deification terms either. He was seen as great in holiness, but does this make a god? Men can be particularly holy, and be raised above other men in recognition of this, but there's still not a full elevation to the heady ranks of the AEsir. Think of Christian Saints as a parallel, Hebrew prophets and so on...

We have a locally venerated dead king. And yet this is a long way off from a Thunor or Frig. Ellis sees a 'cult of the dead' at work, and though the dead can be powerful, they are not accorded a universally relevant position.


I suppose Woden is the best candidate for a deified man in the Northern tradition, or a God who has at least had some great Hero grafted onto him. This would have to have occured prior to the Proto-Germanic period. I'd say that his very name precludes it, though, as well as his exploits largely taking place out of mortal time and space.

Ours!

:eek:

Though I'd hate to be seen to tell people to 'shop around' in this matter, it does seem inappropriate that a Hiberno-Gallo-Norman shouldn't at least have made a preliminary nod to the West before rushing headlong up North... ;)

I gave no exhaustive list, just a few pointers in the right directions. Feel free to add!

:thumb001:
May 'heresy' never be a word of power among us!

[SwordoftheVistula]

Most likely, the further back in history you go, the more detached from reality the stories of these ancient people become, and the more 'godlike' they get.

[Curtis24]

Sword, in many ways ancient stories have been legitimized more and more by archaeology. For instance, for a long time the Assyrians and their capitol of Nineveh(both mentioned in the Bible) were thought to be fantastic discoveries. Until Nineveh was actually found, as well as Assyrian civilization. And of course, there is the first skepticism of, and eventual discovery of Greek Bronze Age Civilization. So I wouldn't discount the old myths - they seem to be more accurate than we give credit for.

Problem with the Anatolian theory is that it relies on the idea of demic diffusion; which goes against logic, because when in recorded history has a language spread by demic diffusion? Its always imposed on a conquered people by conquerors.

[Nodens]

I'm not much interested in the mythology of other Folk at this point in time for the very reason that trying to work through my own Folkish Heathen ideology does not necessitate a comparative approach. That can come later. I think looking at other folks' various mythologies only serve to dilute the fabrication of an understanding of a more Germanic worldview.

The problem with this attitude is that the origin of Germanic religion/mythology is PIE religion/mythology, the study of which necessitates a comparative religious approach.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Danish boy got a dose of yellow fever.:p

It's contageous and difficult to cure...

[Aemma]

The problem with this attitude is that the origin of Germanic religion/mythology is PIE religion/mythology, the study of which necessitates a comparative religious approach.

Eventually, yes. I'm not disputing this and I think I was fairly clear in this regard. My issue is professing Germanic heathenry as one's spiritual path yet not attempting to get a full immersion of that would-be mindset or worldview first and foremost. Not all heathens believe in the PIE comparative religious approach btw. I have some dear heathen friends who are not on this forum incidentally that would most definitely not agree with you.

My point is let's not be like all the other heathens on every other heathen forum or board I've ever been on and start saying:"You're doing it wrong!" I recognise that this is one huge hallmark of heathenry but we needn't have it here. I thought at least we were a mature and open group of heathens here at the very least.

[Baron Samedi]

The Aesir are gods. Period.

Any further mental masturbation on the matter is absolutely silly. Stop trying (key word here) to tear them down to the Midgarth level....

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Herr List
The Aesir are gods.

I don’t believe that part is disputed; all Gods are real….for a given definition of “God(s)” and “real”.

My view of the Gods would have me labelled as an atheist by probably most, you won’t find me in blots or the like, tried didn’t like, felt stupid, felt nothing, so went away thought some more tried different things. My views are an evolving concept but I’m coming to realise more what they are not and a few ideas about what they are.

Of course the great thing about Heathenism is that you decide who you want to associate with and who you don’t, if people don’t see it your way and that becomes a problem you can just walk on, some of us fit into groups with others, some (like me) tend to be quite singular.

The benefit is that there are always fresh ideas to explore, once Heathens feel they have to stop asking questions it will be a sorry day indeed.

[Nodens]

My issue is professing Germanic heathenry as one's spiritual path yet not attempting to get a full immersion of that would-be mindset or worldview first and foremost.

Except this was a discussion of origins, not mindset.

[Piparskeggr]

All Lore started as some individual's entertaining or explanatory story, or insight upon some topic of spiritual or philosophical interest...and the analysis of origins is, in the light of the absence of a complete record (either documentary or archaeological) in the realm of enlightened supposition.

The Asia we know is, save geologically, unlike the Asia of the early migration eras.

It is quite likely that the peoples who would become the Teutons, Celts and other Folk of early historical accounts came out of the steppes, forests and mountains of what has been set off by geographers as western-central Asia. I'd venture to guess that these tribes had no name for where they lived, save "our home."

Perhaps men and gods became conflated in the meantime; we can suppose so, but will never know.

Here's a "suppose" song I wrote as an offering to Tyr. It has a little of his "calling names" from the Lore, and a bit of my own story making.

Clans' Bond (1st verse repeated as the Burden)

Sky Father Tyr, Wolf Oath Maker
Thing Jarl, Lord of Law
Sky Father Tyr, Wolf Oath Maker
One Handed Tribal Ward

From out of mists, of Time's rude start,
Small family bands, of Man strode forth.
Did build their lives, and strengthen clans,
Then Tribal thoughts, came to the fore.

Within the dale, a lone clan lived,
Doing right well, in wealth and health.
With fruitful fields, and game filled woods,
In plenty they, did pass their days.

Another clan, had traveled far,
Came into dale, under Trade Sign.
Did ask to rest, and perhaps join,
To become one, and grow in kind?
- Burden -

A leader was, needed to guide,
To speak good Rede, and set a Law.
So clans could blend, into a Tribe,
A new Lifeway, path was not clear.

One did step forth, and gave his Oath,
To serve all well, and speak wise words.
For he had thoughts, of how to work,
So two clans could, become one Folk.

Tyr's Words were wrought, to build a Tribe,
From clannish Folk, who saw a chance,
To tie their Lines, and tie their lives,
To weave new Strands, into the Web.
- Burden -

And through the years, his words rang true,
And tales sprang up, about his deeds,
And long time passed, and so did he,
Into Legend, as Asa Tyr.

From out of mists, of Time's rude start,
Family bands, of Man strode forth.
Did build their lives, and strengthen clans,
Then Tribal thoughts, came to the fore.
- Burden -
- Burden -

[Osweo]

The Asia we know is, save geologically, unlike the Asia of the early migration eras.
Ethnologically, yes. Ecologically, we-ell.... It's not THAT different in nature. It's just been a case of the contraction and expansion of the habitats currently present. And this plays some role in refuting the following;

It is quite likely that the peoples who would become the Teutons, Celts and other Folk of early historical accounts came out of the steppes, forests and mountains of what has been set off by geographers as western-central Asia.
Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, in other words.

Ecologically, from there to OUR lands, we go from Continental River Valley through Steppe through Desert, Steppe, Marshes, Steppe, Continental Forest, to Temperate Forest (ameliorated by the Gulf Stream).

I don't buy that a people could successively adapt to all those without losing a LOT of what made them what they were by the end of it. I don't think they'd keep up the momentum to radically change the ideology and language of those who were there before them in the final destination in this journey. This is a major problem I have with Steppe-based PIE Urheimat theories in general.

I can envisage how a temperate forest plain people might, upon innovating various equestrian techniques, penetrate an erstwhile near-uninhabited Steppe. This is how I see IE speech leaving Europe and following the Great Steppe eastward and southeastward. That 'works' in my mind. But I don't see how the opposite would be as effective in spreading a language as PIE obviously was in central and northern Europe (to the extent that no rival is now even discernable).


Our Teutons and Celts ... came out of the steppes...
Even IF PIE came from the east, the Teutons and Celts would still be a product of Central Europe, with all concomitant specificities. And that includes the influence on their religion. Remember Chris Plaisance's article in the Journal of Contemporary Heathen Thought, where he talked about our debt in this sphere to the old forests? Where he quoted Spengler on the atavism of this deep influence on even our cathedrals?

AND, let's not forget the continuity aspect; even IF the modern Celts and Teutons owe their language to intrepid horsemen from the east (like I said, I don't buy it for a second, then they would still, in all likelihood, draw the majority of their blood from those who had always lived here.

There's perhaps too much paranoia in supposing that extra-European origin theories always have an ulterior political motive, but it's worth bearing this aspect in mind, I think... :p:thumb001:

[Brynhild]

The problem with anything religious or spiritual is that there is this never ending argument about how it should be done. Nobody has any right to tell me how I should live my own path - none of you have even the foggiest idead of what I've been through and how I've come to get where I am now.

I could easily fall into the category of not being scholar savvy either, but I'm afraid that such a snide attitude from those intellectuals who think they know better just because they've read all the myths under the sun are not only presumptious but conceited as well.

When will people actually realise - let alone accept - that while myths carry an element of truth to them, along with a sense of morals, they are interpreted in any way that anybody needs of it? There is no right or wrong way, there just is. As for who and what I am, only I know what that is.

[Osweo]

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee............ I suppose this is at least partially aimed at me again. :(

Aemma took offence too, and this dismays me greatly. :(

BUT the THREAD is about a purely historical matter. WERE the Aesir real people, and did they come from Asia. If I seem arrogant in talking about spheres in which I DO have some level of savvy, PLEASE don't take it that I'm making ANY sort of comment on anything that is going on today in people's real lives. :suomut: Nodens hit it on the head in Post 62.

:(

[SwordoftheVistula]

IF the modern Celts and Teutons owe their language to intrepid horsemen from the east (like I said, I don't buy it for a second, then they would still, in all likelihood, draw the majority of their blood from those who had always lived here.

Well yes, that's where the whole thing about them being 'gods' comes in. If there had been an outside group which conquered those living there already and established themselves as a ruling minority, this would be the origin of the myths about them being gods, as part of establishing control and dominance over those already living there.

[Liffrea]

View myth as you would art and you have an idea of what they are really about, there are any number of ways to interpret a poem or a painting or a piece of music, myth is art, probably its highest form being both the source of and the point of much other art. It is expression of a consciousness at work in the world, what you take from it is more about you than anything else.

The myth that means the most to me isn’t Germanic, it’s Greek, the myth of Prometheus, which tells you much of my world view, I have a drawing that is from one of Pratchett’s Discworld works, a Promethean figure with a grin on his face running down hill from the abode of the Gods carrying fire in a lightning storm.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Someone sent me a message saying that 'this is impossible'.

I don't see how it is, given that people crossed continents and conquered them with technology about the same or not too much more advanced:

Alexander the Great, all the way to India

Mongols in the middle ages, from Mongolia all across Asia into eastern Europe.

Russians into Siberia/Asia

Americans into California/Oregon trail & throughout the west

[lei.talk]

Someone sent me a message saying that 'this is impossible'.

I don't see how it is, given that...


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46190#post46190

[Osweo]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46190#post46190

Hmm... I reviewed that thread, and saw that I didn't answer that in detail. I must have been tired. :p

Let's have another look, and in doing so answer Weichelsschwert....


hikers delight in shocking non-hikers by demonstrating with a calculator that one can walk from the southern-most tip of africa to the southern-most tip of america in fifteen years.
Calculators are pure theory. This takes nothing into account other than geography. In ancient times, the amount of tribal territories you'd have to cross would be huge. Chances are you'd make it through about five before you found some bugger willing to stick a bit of obsidian in you and take your head home to hang from the roof of his hut. And animals and natural dangers are more likely to get you in wandering about out of your home habitat, where you don't know which spiders are the ones that kill you, or which berries and roots are best for getting your oesophagus to swell up and choke you to death. Tierra del Fuego to Baffin Island is an infinite list of dangers for the ignorant and simply unlucky.

sailing a small boat is much faster.
Through the Caribbean? Stop and think how that sea got its name... ;) I wouldn't advise it. :p

the trip was considerably shorter
when the sea-level was a few hundred feet lower.
Wouldn't the greater landmasses mean a longer distance, circumference-wise?

sailors understand things in the real world
that linguists and other specialists do not.
Sailors have maps and various navigating technology that give them great ease of mind. This was not available in the 'Here be Dragons' 'Terra Incognita' world of millennia ago.

how long would it take to walk and eat
one's way across the steppes
to the west coast of the eur-asian land-mass?
Bloody ages, and a wolf or hunger or bad weather would finish you off first.

Anyway the explorer hobbyist of today is irrelevant. He knows where he's going, and he knows he'll get back. He only has to support himself for a few weeks at most, not a lifetime in a strange land.

And are we talking of an individual here, or a group, or a whole tribe? The bigger you make them, the less momentum they're going to have, the more opposition they'll meet along the way, the more they'll be likely to decide to settle at some pleasant point along the way.

Look at the Gypsies. Before modern travel, they only reached England in a highly diluted form. Now that the 'real thing' is getting here, our eyes pop out of our heads at their foreignness. 'These aren't like the Gypsies of our folklore!'

As for a small group of individuals travelling all that way, to be later remembered as the Gods, I find it extremely unlikely that they could have had an impact beyond the merely local. Like that man Grimr in a post above - sure they venerated him after his death, but he didn't end up in the pantheon of an entire people.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Mongol_Empire_map_2.gif
This gif demonstrates my point rather well. It should be viewed in conjunction with a map of ecological zones. The Tatars merely filled the natural limits of the ecological niche to which their culture was adapted. That block representing Rus' should be half-shaded at least. It wasn't directly ruled by the Tatars. The latter were in raiding distance and thus able to enforce political and tributary domination, but they were unable to put down lasting roots in the unfamiliar thickly wooded territory. Likewise with Siberia to the north.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/y1997e/y1997e1g.jpg

[SwordoftheVistula]

In ancient times, the amount of tribal territories you'd have to cross would be huge. Chances are you'd make it through about five before you found some bugger willing to stick a bit of obsidian in you and take your head home to hang from the roof of his hut. And animals and natural dangers are more likely to get you in wandering about out of your home habitat, where you don't know which spiders are the ones that kill you, or which berries and roots are best for getting your oesophagus to swell up and choke you to death. Tierra del Fuego to Baffin Island is an infinite list of dangers for the ignorant and simply unlucky.


As for a small group of individuals travelling all that way, to be later remembered as the Gods, I find it extremely unlikely that they could have had an impact beyond the merely local.

It might not have been common, but it was doable. Even in stone age North America, they found extensive trading networks spanning the entire continent. So, it is entirely within the realm of the possible to do this, physically, the only question is that it would be difficult, and whether anyone could or did overcome these difficulties.

Thus, if some group made it through all that, they'd be pretty tough bastards, so it is entirely possible that they decided to settle in Scandinavia and established themselves as some sort of ruling class, eventually establishing 'god' status with the passage of time.

Especially as regards assault by the local tribes: a battle hardened band of warriors could easily sweep aside local militias, as shown time & again in ancient history (mongols, vikings, Hannibal, etc)



Sailors have maps and various navigating technology that give them great ease of mind. This was not available in the 'Here be Dragons' 'Terra Incognita' world of millennia ago.

Bloody ages, and a wolf or hunger or bad weather would finish you off first.

Anyway the explorer hobbyist of today is irrelevant. He knows where he's going, and he knows he'll get back.

Lotsa people back then weren't exactly chickenshit, especially when jacked up on religion. If the shaman said the gods ordained to go west, off to the west you went, without fear.




He only has to support himself for a few weeks at most, not a lifetime in a strange land.

To a hunter-gatherer band, this would be nothing new. It might even be better, with the opportunity to raid and pillage new targets along the way.


And are we talking of an individual here, or a group, or a whole tribe? The bigger you make them, the less momentum they're going to have, the more opposition they'll meet along the way, the more they'll be likely to decide to settle at some pleasant point along the way.

And maybe that place was Scandinavia. Especially if the locals then resemble the folks who remain there today.

Perhaps eventually, the mayhem-raising tough as nails descendants of the Aesir, the vikings, all set sail for more distant points (becoming the Kievan Rus, Nor-mans, Anglo-Saxons, etc), and Scandinavia returned to the peaceful land it is today.

Where are the Aesir today? Oh, I'm sure they're still out there, up to their old tricks somewhere.

5rXPrfnU3G0

[lei.talk]

Let's have another look,
and in doing so - answer Weichelsschwert....

is it only me http://i53.tinypic.com/34s5rt0.gif


or do all bow to your erudition?
http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/awad/you-are-the-man.gif


what/who is "Weichelsschwert"?

[Osweo]

is it only me http://i53.tinypic.com/34s5rt0.gif


or do all bow to your erudition?
http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/awad/you-are-the-man.gif
:eyes .... :ohwell: ... :(
I'd prefer that my reasoning be commended more than my erudition. :cry2


what/who is "Weichelsschwert"?
Weichsel - 'Vistula'

Schwert - 'sword'
:thumb001:

[lei.talk]

:eyes .... :ohwell: ... :(
I'd prefer that my reasoning be commended more than my erudition (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/erudition). :cry2
many intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable and charming persons
have not studied, practiced or developed a proficiency
at rigourous ratiocination (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ratiocination).

they are vastly more literate than numerate
and numeracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numeracy) (particularly γεωμετρία (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry))
is the best foundation of rational thought.

for example:

Originally Posted by lei.talk http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/kiddo/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=46190#post46190)
the trip was considerably shorter
when the sea-level was a few hundred feet lower.
Originally Posted by Oswiu http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon2.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=294470#post294470)
Wouldn't the greater landmasses mean a longer distance, circumference-wise?

if one is walking from the southern-most tip of africa (point A)
to the southern-most tip of america (point B),


http://i40.tinypic.com/flj81e.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period)http://i30.tinypic.com/scytjl.jpghttp://i55.tinypic.com/kbvqsp.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene)

which is the shorter arc (distance)?

while this may seem relatively technical,
it is the basis for clearer thought
that usually eliminates the more (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=863021#post863021) common (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=209039#post209039) fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy).

your lengthier and consequently more informative/entertaining expositions
are so pleasure-able - as a whole -
that nit-picking the many errors of detail
and process seems curmudgeonly.

as our ontological cartographer astutely articulated (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=296208#post296208)
(this: to fore-stall any inappropriate inferences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inference#Incorrect_inference)),
entities are not best defined by negatives.

entities are better defined by their attributes
(for which they are valued):

"intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable and charming (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=261755#post261755)".
http://i53.tinypic.com/34s5rt0.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect)

[Osweo]

if one is walking from the southern-most tip of africa (point A)
to the southern-most tip of america (point B),


http://i51.tinypic.com/2rhycgl.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period)http://i30.tinypic.com/scytjl.jpghttp://i55.tinypic.com/kbvqsp.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene)

which is the shorter arc (distance)?


I see what you're saying, and I only said what I did as a question, but here;
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4835/longwayyyy.png

That Sunda Shelf makes it a bit longer!

Lower water makes the land bigger, with more bulges sticking out, and a 'concave' route is thereby shortened, but it also joins separate landmasses in some places. Several handy straits thereby become fat belts of land that our hypothetical coaster might not chance to cross. :p

Given that the route is an irregular mix of concave and convex parts, I wonder if it all in fact just cancels itself out in the end. I don't think this can be answered from first principles geometry now. You'd need to look into the reality of sea depths and so on. ;)

[keyoghettson]

Go to my blog for more info on the origins of the Proto-Germanic people:

http://www.keyoghettson.com/2010/11/proto-germanic-people_30.html

[Osweo]

Go to my blog for more info on the origins of the Proto-Germanic people:

http://www.keyoghettson.com/2010/11/proto-germanic-people_30.html

Um... Osweo doth not approve of the content of that site. EXCEPT the GREAT photos! :thumb001:

[lei.talk]

Someone sent me a message saying that 'this is impossible'.

I don't see how it is, given that...


Cretan tools point to 130,000-year-old sea travel

Associated Press | Posted: Monday, January 3, 2011 1:10 pm


Archaeologists on the island of Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) have discovered what may be evidence of one of the world's first sea voyages by human ancestors, the Greek Culture Ministry said Monday. A ministry statement said experts from Greece and the U.S. have found rough axes and other tools thought to be between 130,000 and 700,000 years old close to shelters on the island's south coast.

Crete has been separated from the mainland for about five million years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood), so whoever made the tools must have traveled there by sea (a distance of at least 40 miles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon#Optical_adjustments_and_objects_above_the_ horizon)). That would upset the current view that human ancestors migrated to Europe from Africa by land alone.

"The results of the survey not only provide evidence of sea voyages in the Mediterranean tens of thousands of years earlier than we were aware of so far, but also change our understanding of early hominids' cognitive abilities," the ministry statement said.


http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/nctimes.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/6/76/30b/67630bd9-b35d-531c-9b7a-afa3b9734c25-revisions/4d2522f8651b4.image.jpg

The previous earliest evidence of open-sea travel in Greece dates back 11,000 years (worldwide, about 60,000 years _ although considerably earlier dates have been proposed).

The tools were found during a survey of caves and rock shelters near the village of Plakias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plakias) by archaeologists from the American School of Classical Studies at Athens and the Culture Ministry.

Such rough stone implements are associated with Heidelberg Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_heidelbergensis) and Homo Erectus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_erectus), extinct precursors of the modern human race, which evolved from Africa about 200,000 years ago.


http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/nctimes.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/b/43/3ff/b433ff72-7732-51b0-9e83-e8e5dcac21c1-revisions/4d2522f883de2.image.jpg

"Up to now we had no proof of Early Stone Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Paleolithic) presence on Crete," said senior ministry archaeologist Maria Vlazaki, who was not involved in the survey. She said it was unclear where the hominids had sailed from, or whether the settlements were permanent.

"They may have come from Africa or from the east," she said. "Future study should help."

The team of archaeologists has applied for permission to conduct a more thorough excavation of the area, which Greek authorities are expected to approve later this year.

[Osweo]

Cretan tools point to 130,000-year-old sea travel
Interesting... :thumb001:

Has the old idea of the Med having been largely dry at such a period been overturned since I read about it in 'First Eden' in the late 1980s? :chin: