Spaniards plot south: Greeks/Albanians closer Tuscans, Bulgarians, and North Italians.

[Sikeliot]

In fact, Spaniards here are closer to southern Italians/Maltese/Jews (the "MENA shifted" Euros) than the Greeks and Albanians are, who are up near Bergamo, Tuscany, and Bulgaria.

You can clearly see here how Albanians/Greeks come up as South Italians + a sizable chunk of North Euro.

This is from a peer reviewed study.

http://i.imgur.com/Kj8xwUX.png

[Lek]

Only real Albanians are the ones who score high east euro on ftdna. The rest are just Albanised. What have we become.... Ncncnc....

[Ibericus]

In fact, Spaniards here are closer to southern Italians/Maltese/Jews (the "MENA shifted" Euros) than the Greeks and Albanians are, who are up near Bergamo, Tuscany, and Bulgaria.

You can clearly see here how Albanians/Greeks come up as South Italians + a sizable chunk of North Euro.

This is from a peer reviewed study.

http://i.imgur.com/Kj8xwUX.png

This is a MA1 (MAl'ta ) comparison , not a genome-wide PCA. In other words, shows from lowest to higer levels of ANE.

[Sikeliot]

This is a MA1 (MAl'ta ) comparison , not a genome-wide PCA. In other words, shows from lowest to higer levels of ANE.

No, it says "BedouinB, Han, Mbuti" so it is about MENA admixture not ANE.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Albanians solely from Albania or from other places aswell?

[Ibericus]

No, it says "BedouinB, Han, Mbuti" so it is about MENA admixture not ANE.
Those are the outgroups. The left-righgt axis is Han (East-Eurasian influence) and the Bottom-Up axis is ANE.

[Sikeliot]

Those are the outgroups. The left-righgt axis is Han (East-Eurasian influence) and the Bottom-Up axis is ANE.

But moving northeast to southwest on the chart is the axis along which MENA increases. Meaning no European has more than Malta, and none less than Saami here.

[Ibericus]

But moving northeast to southwest on the chart is the axis along which MENA increases. Meaning no European has more than Malta, and none less than Saami here.
No, MENA has nothing to do here. The plot is testing ANE vs ENA variation in Europeans.
Stuttgart is the least ANE (which makes sense)

[RN97]

lol, it's the one I showed Viejo, but it doesn't show what you claim Sikeliot, you misinterpreted it. My only point was to show that depending on what elements you use in a PCA map and how much you weigh them, you'll get different outcomes, that's why looking at calculator spreadsheets of genetic components is much more accurate to determine genetic affinity IMO.

[Bell Beaker]

We have in my village an important Romanian community, like 20 of them. But not gypsies, real Romanians and they are no different in pigmentation comparing with the local Portuguese population.

Most of these plots mean shit.

[RN97]

We have in my village an important Romanian community, like 20 of them. But not gypsies, real Romanians and they are no different in pigmentation comparing with the local Portuguese population.

Most of these plots mean shit.

You think PCA plots measures pigmentation, lol?

[Sikeliot]

This one shows similar (actual autosomal PCA):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

[nightrider+]

This isn't really surprising. Spaniards would plot closer to Stuttgart neolithic in any pca plot basically. As for modern MENA populations ,compared to Spaniards, Greeks could plot quite a bit closer to Lebanese but a little bit further from Bedouins for example.

[EL_BARBARO]

Every time I find less sense to the threads of Sikeliot.

[Bell Beaker]

You think PCA plots measures pigmentation, lol?

The OP is trying to prove the Slavicness of Greeks and that we are niggers compared to them.......

[Sikeliot]

The OP is trying to prove the Slavicness of Greeks and that we are niggers compared to them.......


Well if this chart shows ANE, it would in fact hint at Slavicness, yes.

[Damião de Góis]

This one shows similar (actual autosomal PCA):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

It shows that you can't read them. Let me help you:

http://oi64.tinypic.com/amv4sy.jpg

Better?

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2ymtah1.jpg

[Bell Beaker]

Well if this chart shows ANE, it would in fact hint at Slavicness, yes.

Most Slavs live in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland......

I've never seen a Greek who looks "Slavic".

You should start to shut up about those "out of your ass" theories, because they are senseless and stupid you only cohorrelate Europeans with their geographical position, "Ow Iberians are right near the French and just at a sea distance of Britain, they are Brits with a olive skin, ow Greeks are Southeastern Europeans they must be very Slav in appearence.......".

[Petalpusher]

It's a dstat for ANE, it only shows that. The real pca everybody knows from this study (Lazaridis 2014) is this one :

https://s16.postimg.org/9ux0vxyzn/laz14.jpg

[Sikeliot]

It's a dstat for ANE, it only shows that. The real pca everybody knows from this study (Lazaridis 2014) is this one :

https://s16.postimg.org/9ux0vxyzn/laz14.jpg

It shows something similar (Greeks/Albanians together and closer to Tuscany and Bulgaria than to Sicily), though Spain is in a different place.

[Sikeliot]

Most Slavs live in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland......

I've never seen a Greek who looks "Slavic".

You should start to shut up about those "out of your ass" theories, because they are senseless and stupid you only cohorrelate Europeans with their geographical position, "Ow Iberians are right near the French and just at a sea distance of Britain, they are Brits with a olive skin, ow Greeks are Southeastern Europeans they must be very Slav in appearence.......".


Greeks plot north of southern Italians. This is not an "out of my ass" theory, it is a fact.

[Bell Beaker]

We all know (or should know) what is the primary goal of the OP with all this Slavicwashing of Greeks. It has been his dream since he signed in, in this forum.


Isolating the Sicilians and the Southern Italians has the "most levantine/MENA of Europe" at any costs. First it was all around his endless Iberians vs Southern Italian bull crap, now he is trying to do this with the Greeks.

[Bell Beaker]

Greeks plot north of southern Italians. This is not an "out of my ass" theory, it is a fact.

Not it isn't.

Sicilians and Greeks have similar composition of haplogroups and this is the only peer reviewd genetic paper that I have to base my self.

[Sikeliot]

We all know (or should know) what is the primary goal of the OP with all this Slavicwashing of Greeks. It has been his dream since he signed in, in this forum.

Isolating the Sicilians and the Southern Italians has the "most levantine/MENA of Europe" at any costs. First it was all around his endless Iberians vs Southern Italian bull crap, now he is trying to do this with the Greeks.

Again, it is not an agenda when it is true. The most MENA influence is Malta. But my issue is the resistance to the idea that Greeks do plot north of southern Italians and Sicilians (at least the mainland does, not true for some of the islands) when this has been PROVEN time and time again.

[Sikeliot]

Not it isn't.

Sicilians and Greeks have similar composition of haplogroups and this is the only peer reviewd genetic paper that I have to base my self.

Don't go by haplogroups but by autosomal placement. See the PCA on the previous page Petalpusher posted. Greeks are CLOSER TO TUSCANS than to Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af183/EliasAlucard/Genomics/Eurogenes_Caucasoid_PCA_plot.jpg



Same thing here ^

[Wrong]

Only real Albanians are the ones who score high east euro on ftdna. The rest are just Albanised. What have we become.... Ncncnc....Albanised Gracil EV13ids. No wonder we have those short types among our countrymen.

[Bell Beaker]

Don't go by haplogroups but by autosomal placement. See the PCA on the previous page Petalpusher posted. Greeks are CLOSER TO TUSCANS than to Sicilians.

Ah man.........

What does that even mean? If I am 50% Northern European 50% Turk I will probably plot north of Sicilians. What it shows is that Greeks have some more Northern european ancestry than Southern Italians, it doesn't mean that they don't have a huge level of West Asian/Asia Minor ancestry like S.Italians do.

Btw, this is not even true since it's also a genetic fact that Sicilians, and a few isolated Southern Italian regions have Northern European ancestry from the Normans that puts some Greeks into shame.

http://s29.postimg.org/5709y8trb/Germanic_Europe.gif

The only place where I have seen Greeks scoring high R1-a is in places like Thessaloniki. Well here it goes some Southern Italian regions also score Northern European perhaps Germanic ancestry from the Normans. :jump0000::rotfl:

[Petalpusher]

Don't go by haplogroups but by autosomal placement. See the PCA on the previous page Petalpusher posted. Greeks are CLOSER TO TUSCANS than to Sicilians.

I don't think anybody denies that, but comparing everything to south Italians or Sicilians is a bit misleading. Anybody in central Europe is like 80% Icelandic in comparison, of course Greeks are closer to central Europe, it's not that miraculous even considering the geography.

[RN97]

We all know (or should know) what is the primary goal of the OP with all this Slavicwashing of Greeks. It has been his dream since he signed in, in this forum.


Isolating the Sicilians and the Southern Italians has the "most levantine/MENA of Europe" at any costs. First it was all around his endless Iberians vs Southern Italian bull crap, now he is trying to do this with the Greeks.

There are no proof that it has anything to do with mixture that came from Slavs, MENAS etc.
However indeed Greeks have slightly more ANE than s. Italians making them closer to south slavs and even slavs compared to s. Italians.
It is also well known that in Europe South Italians are indeed the most south-plotting population along with Maltese and Greeks (Greeks plot more east, but can plot equally south, that's what Sikeliot denies). That means that s. Italians/ Greeks and Maltese indeed are closest to Caucasoid MENAS compared to other European groups.
That doesn't mean they are at all close to those pop. Just closer compared to other Euro groups.

[Sikeliot]

What does that even mean? If I am 50% Northern European 50% Turk I will probably plot north of Sicilians. What it shows is that Greeks have some more Northern european ancestry than Southern Italians, it doesn't mean that they don't have a huge level of West Asian/Asia Minor ancestry like S.Italians do.

Again in that chart you went by haplogroups. AUTOSOMAL DNA puts mainland Greeks north of southern Italians/Sicilians on PCA plots (even when factoring in any North Euro in Sicily which, FYI, is autosomally very small regardless of haplogroups). No one denied they have a similar amount of Asia Minor or Neolithic West Asian. All I want acknowledged is they have more North European and plot north of them on most PCA plots.

[Sikeliot]

There are no proof that it has anything to do with mixture that came from Slavs, MENAS etc.
However indeed Greeks have slightly more ANE than s. Italians making them closer to south slavs and even slavs compared to s. Italians.
It is also well known that in Europe South Italians are indeed the most south-plotting population along with Maltese and Greeks (Greeks plot more east, but can plot equally south, that's what Sikeliot denies). That means that s. Italians/ Greeks and Maltese indeed are closest to Caucasoid MENAS compared to other European groups.
That doesn't mean they are at all close to those pop. Just closer compared to other Euro groups.

Average Greeks do not plot equally south though. Greeks usually plot between southern Italians and Tuscans and Bulgarians, which means they plot east of them... what they do not plot is as much south or toward North Africa/Levant. FYI even as Maltese plot slightly further south of Sicilians, so it really is Malta/Sicily closer, Greece most different.

Sicily, Ashkenazim, and Maltese are the three outliers. Most Greeks, no.

[Bell Beaker]

Again in that chart you went by haplogroups. AUTOSOMAL DNA puts mainland Greeks north of southern Italians/Sicilians on PCA plots (even when factoring in any North Euro in Sicily which, FYI, is autosomally very small regardless of haplogroups). No one denied they have a similar amount of Asia Minor or Neolithic West Asian. All I want acknowledged is they have more North European and plot north of them on most PCA plots.

You can't measure autosomal ancestry, it's like guessing what is going to be the numbers of the lotery. Because it's a whole 50 000 history that you are describing as "More Northern" or more "Southern".

I will always go by Haplogroups.

[Sikeliot]

Greeks are closer to Albanians than anyone else (no matter what anyone says or denies, the opposite is true too), they do not belong being in the same category or mention with Maltese, Sicilians, or Ashkenazim is my point. They have more West Asian ancestry than the Spanish, but they're not Malta/Sicily level outlying.

[Sikeliot]

You can't measure autosomal ancestry, it's like guessing what is going to be the numbers of the lotery. Because it's a whole 50 000 history that you are describing as "More Northern" or more "Southern".

I will always go by Haplogroups.

Well if you want to go by haplogroups we are talking about apples and oranges here since I only discuss autosomal, and you will never be able to discuss this with me in a way that is otherwise. FYI, Lebanese also have minor West Euro y-dna.

[Bell Beaker]

Well if you want to go by haplogroups we are talking about apples and oranges here since I only discuss autosomal, and you will never be able to discuss this with me in a way that is otherwise. FYI, Lebanese also have minor West Euro y-dna.

Autosomal ancestry is tricky.....

[Sikeliot]

Autosomal ancestry is tricky.....

Just look at a PCA plot. I am done trying to attribute things to Slavic, Phoenician, etc. Just look at a PCA plot, see out of Ashkenazim/Maltese/Sicilians and Greeks who plot differently than the others (toward the rest of Europe).

Anyway my goal has never been to prove Sicilians are more MENA than all other Europeans. I have readily said, despite them being a subgroup of them, Maltese are more so, and even most Ashkenazim probably surpass them, given they are not even really originated in Europe. I just will not acknowledge the same for Greeks because for 90% of them it is NOT true.

[Bell Beaker]

Just look at a PCA plot. I am done trying to attribute things to Slavic, Phoenician, etc. Just look at a PCA plot, see out of Ashkenazim/Maltese/Sicilians and Greeks who plot differently than the others (toward the rest of Europe).

Anyway my goal has never been to prove Sicilians are more MENA than all other Europeans. I have readily said, despite them being a subgroup of them, Maltese are more so, and even most Ashkenazim probably surpass them, given they are not even really originated in Europe. I just will not acknowledge the same for Greeks because for 90% of them it is NOT true.

Nothing that Haplogroups have ever hide.......

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG


Iberians (western southern europeans) have more Indigenous European ancestry than other Southern Europeans because obviously they are far away from the Levant.....

[RN97]

Average Greeks do not plot equally south though. Greeks usually plot between southern Italians and Tuscans and Bulgarians, which means they plot east of them... what they do not plot is as much south or toward North Africa/Levant. FYI even as Maltese plot slightly further south of Sicilians, so it really is Malta/Sicily closer, Greece most different.

Sicily, Ashkenazim, and Maltese are the three outliers. Most Greeks, no.

It's not that significant, the main difference is still east/ west.
http://i.imgur.com/pRWLg91.jpg

[Sikeliot]

It's not that significant, the main difference is still east/ west.

The east/west difference is NE European vs NW European influence.

But no, most Greeks do not plot as far south, because their combined northern influence is noticeably higher.

[nightrider+]

It's not that significant, the main difference is still east/ west.
http://i.imgur.com/pRWLg91.jpg

Tell us more about how Bedouins plot West of English or Sardinians as north as Tuscans. Is it so hard for you people to understand that trying to interpret plots as north-south or west-east is pointless?

[Sikeliot]

It is not north or south on the map, it is "closer to Balkans" vs "closer to MENAs"

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Most Slavs live in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland......

I've never seen a Greek who looks "Slavic".

You should start to shut up about those "out of your ass" theories, because they are senseless and stupid you only cohorrelate Europeans with their geographical position, "Ow Iberians are right near the French and just at a sea distance of Britain, they are Brits with a olive skin, ow Greeks are Southeastern Europeans they must be very Slav in appearence.......".

Sikeliot's logic is laughable