Y-DNA Movement In Europe Through Ages Illustrated In Maps.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

I stumble upon this interesting site about Europe's Y-DNA history, and thought to share it with you.
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-of-europes-ancient-tribes-kingdoms-and-y-dna/

Europe’s likely dominant or notable Y-DNA haplogroups around 7000 BC, 2000 BC, 117 AD and 1227 AD.

Human genetic history is complicated, particular in Europe, therefore the territorial lines associated with major Y-DNA haplogroups in these maps should be seen as best guesses based on current knowledge of genetics, archaeology, and history (sources below).

Y-DNA also presents just a small part of our overall genetic picture. However, because the majority of the Y-chromosome is transmitted from father to son, with small mutations in pretty much every generation, it offers a good degree of resolution on population history and movement through male-line ancestry.
http://i65.tinypic.com/ndohmh.jpg
The first map shows Europe around 7000 BC. The Ice Age had ended and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers had migrated from their refuges to recolonize the continent, including Doggerland which later submerged beneath the rising North Sea. The majority of western European males belonged to Y-haplogroup I and northeast Europeans to haplogroup R1a. Other minor male lineages such as R1b, G, J, T and E would also have been present in Europe, having migrated from the Asian Steppe, the Middle East and North Africa.


http://i64.tinypic.com/330fuko.jpg
The second map shows Europe around 2000 BC. In the intervening period agriculture had developed in the Levant and then spread through southern, central and eastern Europe by Neolithic farmers belonging mainly to Y-haplogroups such as G2a, and J2. During the following Copper and Bronze Ages, Indo-European tribes (R1a and R1b) migrated westward from the Eurasian Steppe. Long-distance trading networks developed across Europe and the Atlantic Coast, which helped spread distinct cultures such as Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. In the far north, Haplogroup N1c tribes arrived in Europe from Siberia, their geographical spread aligning with the Pit–Comb Ware culture. In the Middle East and Anatolia advanced civilizations began to emerge. The civilization of Ancient Egypt rose to a peak and the pyramids would remain the tallest and largest human constructions for thousands of years. Even in western Europe megalith builders were constructing giant monuments of their own.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2dl42vo.jpg
The third map shows Europe around 117 AD, which saw the Roman Empire reach its greatest territorial extent. By this time, the descendants of the R1a and R1b Indo-European migrants had come to dominate most of Europe as Celtic, Germanic, and Slavic peoples. The majority of the males in Roman Italy itself would have been the descendants of R1b tribes invaders into the Italian peninsula who displaced its mainly haplogroup G2a inhabitants. Intermarriage with their Etruscan and Greek neighbours would have gradually brought other lineages, such as J2 and E-V13, into the Roman gene pool. Although there were many movements of people both within and outside the Roman Empire, as well as instances of genocide by the Romans on rebellious provincial tribes, the Empire does not appear to have left any big genetic signatures in Europe. Genetic continuity remained in its respective regions, suggesting that there were relatively few Roman Italian colonizers; rather the Empire’s true foundations were through culturally romanized local rulers.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2a8q0qt.jpg
The fourth map shows Europe around 1227 AD, the year Genghis Khan died leaving his Mongol Empire’s westernmost reach beginning to encroach into Europe (characterised by the Great Khan’s own Y-DNA haplogroup C2). Medieval Europe itself was dominated by the Holy Roman Empire – a loose union of small kingdoms with Germany at its heart (and an attempt to resurrect the former glory of the Roman Empire in the west) – and the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the Roman Empire in the east. After the fall of the western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD the migration and conquests of Germanic tribes, such as the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans, also left genetic signatures, particularly haplogroup I, in the British Isles and further afield.

[Lucas]

Interesting

[Norka]

Cool maps!

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Bump

[Wrong]

According to the first map, J2 may have been in the southern Balkans 7000BC, looking at the green boundaries

http://i65.tinypic.com/ndohmh.jpg

[Ülev]

R1ethelites, go home to mother Russia, please

[Porn Master]

R1b in Central Asia? Wut?

[Wrong]

R1b in Central Asia? Wut?It was mostly Caucasoid back than.

[Sacrificed Ram]

What did happen with I*?

[Ülev]

R1b in Central Asia? Wut?

Bashkortostan still R1b stronk!

[Porn Master]

British, French and other westerners are from Central Asia? xD I don't get it

[The Illyrian Warrior]

According to the first map, J2 may have been in the southern Balkans 7000BC, looking at the green boundaries

http://i65.tinypic.com/ndohmh.jpg

Looks more established and older to region then E-V13 however I think we had decent amount of E-V13 during that time, just less common in Balkans then J2.

[Dema]

I stumble upon this interesting site about Europe's Y-DNA history, and thought to share it with you.
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-of-europes-ancient-tribes-kingdoms-and-y-dna/

Europe’s likely dominant or notable Y-DNA haplogroups around 7000 BC, 2000 BC, 117 AD and 1227 AD.

Human genetic history is complicated, particular in Europe, therefore the territorial lines associated with major Y-DNA haplogroups in these maps should be seen as best guesses based on current knowledge of genetics, archaeology, and history (sources below).

Y-DNA also presents just a small part of our overall genetic picture. However, because the majority of the Y-chromosome is transmitted from father to son, with small mutations in pretty much every generation, it offers a good degree of resolution on population history and movement through male-line ancestry.
http://i65.tinypic.com/ndohmh.jpg
The first map shows Europe around 7000 BC. The Ice Age had ended and Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers had migrated from their refuges to recolonize the continent, including Doggerland which later submerged beneath the rising North Sea. The majority of western European males belonged to Y-haplogroup I and northeast Europeans to haplogroup R1a. Other minor male lineages such as R1b, G, J, T and E would also have been present in Europe, having migrated from the Asian Steppe, the Middle East and North Africa.


http://i64.tinypic.com/330fuko.jpg
The second map shows Europe around 2000 BC. In the intervening period agriculture had developed in the Levant and then spread through southern, central and eastern Europe by Neolithic farmers belonging mainly to Y-haplogroups such as G2a, and J2. During the following Copper and Bronze Ages, Indo-European tribes (R1a and R1b) migrated westward from the Eurasian Steppe. Long-distance trading networks developed across Europe and the Atlantic Coast, which helped spread distinct cultures such as Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. In the far north, Haplogroup N1c tribes arrived in Europe from Siberia, their geographical spread aligning with the Pit–Comb Ware culture. In the Middle East and Anatolia advanced civilizations began to emerge. The civilization of Ancient Egypt rose to a peak and the pyramids would remain the tallest and largest human constructions for thousands of years. Even in western Europe megalith builders were constructing giant monuments of their own.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2dl42vo.jpg
The third map shows Europe around 117 AD, which saw the Roman Empire reach its greatest territorial extent. By this time, the descendants of the R1a and R1b Indo-European migrants had come to dominate most of Europe as Celtic, Germanic, and Slavic peoples. The majority of the males in Roman Italy itself would have been the descendants of R1b tribes invaders into the Italian peninsula who displaced its mainly haplogroup G2a inhabitants. Intermarriage with their Etruscan and Greek neighbours would have gradually brought other lineages, such as J2 and E-V13, into the Roman gene pool. Although there were many movements of people both within and outside the Roman Empire, as well as instances of genocide by the Romans on rebellious provincial tribes, the Empire does not appear to have left any big genetic signatures in Europe. Genetic continuity remained in its respective regions, suggesting that there were relatively few Roman Italian colonizers; rather the Empire’s true foundations were through culturally romanized local rulers.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2a8q0qt.jpg
The fourth map shows Europe around 1227 AD, the year Genghis Khan died leaving his Mongol Empire’s westernmost reach beginning to encroach into Europe (characterised by the Great Khan’s own Y-DNA haplogroup C2). Medieval Europe itself was dominated by the Holy Roman Empire – a loose union of small kingdoms with Germany at its heart (and an attempt to resurrect the former glory of the Roman Empire in the west) – and the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the Roman Empire in the east. After the fall of the western Roman Empire in the 5th century AD the migration and conquests of Germanic tribes, such as the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans, also left genetic signatures, particularly haplogroup I, in the British Isles and further afield.

Shumë temë interesant, super postim, qite edhe te foleja si dush, pse jo.

[Hamlet]

British, French and other westerners are from Central Asia? xD I don't get it

Dude, have you never heard of Indo-Europeans?!!

[Wrong]

Shumë temë interesant, super postim, qite edhe te foleja si dush, pse jo.Ditch your Sumerian theory, you are native to the Balkans like the rest of us :D

[The Illyrian Warrior]

R1b in Central Asia? Wut?

Came later from Central Asian steppes, nothing new.

[Hamlet]

Btw, does the creator of the maps say that the haplogroup Q in Sweden is Hunnic in origin?

[Porn Master]

Dude, have you never heard of Indo-Europeans?!!



this is linguistic group. What does it have to do with genetic?

[Hamlet]

this is linguistic group. What does it have to do with genetic?

Duuude just think for a second before posting.

[Porn Master]

Duuude just think for a second before posting.




I can't :(

[Ülev]

British, French and other westerners are from Central Asia? xD I don't get it

son, look here:

http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/33373/sobowtor_1.jpeg

http://i.wp.pl/a/f/jpeg/33373/sobowtor_12.jpeg

more here: http://komediowo.pl/gid,16686521,img,16686586,title,12-rosyjskich-zulkow-ktorzy-wygladaja-jak-amerykanskie-gwiazdy,galeria.html?smpjqticaid=618b59

edit: Russians vs movie stars

[Dema]

Ditch your Sumerian theory, you are native to the Balkans like the rest of us :D

I just started with Sumerians, i will go thru Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians and who knows what else i think i got plenty of room to play with : D Ofc Sumerians are grandfathers as far as we know. :D

Seems that M205 is really native in Fertile Crescent -
http://i64.tinypic.com/2hpkksp.png

Also by researches it is very possible that it both originated and expanded there - https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/
Also we know we are in Balkan max 1500-1600 years, so i might have really lived thru these civilizations and get out just before Arab conquer.

Dont ruin my trip, i am in love with my hg lol

[Wrong]

I just started with Sumerians, i will go thru Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians and who knows what else i think i got plenty of room to play with : D Ofc Sumerians are grandfathers as far as we know. :D

Seems that M205 is really native in Fertile Crescent -
http://i64.tinypic.com/2hpkksp.png

Also by researches it is very possible that it both originated and expanded there - https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possibly-j2b1-m205-basal-structure-defined-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/
Also we know we are in Balkan max 1500-1600 years, so i might have really lived thru these civilizations and get out just before Arab conquer.

Dont ruin my trip, i am in love with my hg lol
Very pale folks before the Arabs

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsu1fdanr61qbworoo1_500.jpg

[Hamlet]

British, French and other westerners are from Central Asia? xD I don't get it

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4a/a2/f3/4aa2f3b3eb3b2e56d6b1de7013ed9c00.jpg

(Indo-European admixture varies pretty much as a function of R1 concentration, one example I don't understand though is the Basques being so R1b despite being indigenous pre-IE European)

[Trojet]

I would not take these maps seriously at all (have seen it all). All it is is someone guessing how Y-DNA make up looked in the past without any kind of evidence.

[Trojet]

The biggest flaw is he claims "I2a1'" was in western Balkans since 2000BC. The western Balkan I2a1 falls under the CTS10228 (Dinaric) subclade and it's heavily connected to Slavic migrations.

[Wrong]

The biggest flaw is he claims "I2a1'" was in western Balkans since 2000BC. The western Balkan I2a1 falls under the CTS10228 (Dinaric) subclade and it's heavily connected to Slavic migrations.


I would not take these maps seriously at all (have seen it all). All it is is someone guessing how Y-DNA make up looked in the past without any kind of evidence.

Agreed. My first thoughts really.

There's too much of a gap between South Slavs and Paleo-Balkanites in terms of Northeastern admixture that the only logic is the huge amount of I2a1b-Slavic clade brought southwards recently.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Useless map based on nothing done by some 400 lb guy from his New Jersey basement.

Not a single I1 found where its homeland is shown(only I1 found in a Swedish HG and a Croatian farmer), R1b/R1a were in the exact same areas and were the majority haplogroup as west as the Baltics/Ukraine, no G2a in Greece/Anatolia/Balkans 7k B, no E in the Levant(Natufians were all E), Unetice shown as R1b when nearly all Unetice were I2.

There's a giant ancient y-dna database, use it.

[Dema]

Very pale folks before the Arabs

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsu1fdanr61qbworoo1_500.jpg

I agree, this guy looks very pale and light skinned, i dont see any Arabic or African influence on him. They were for sure whiter then their neighbors Egyptians. I think Egyptians were in middle of white and black.

[Trojet]

Useless map based on nothing done by some 400 lb guy from his New Jersey basement.

LOL. :thumb001:

[Dema]

I thought that he is speaking about some old I2 that might have been born in Europe or Balkans. But now that i see he is representing like I2a1 that is actually I2a Dinaric was always and still is here which is nonesense. Its pretty much clear that I2a dinaric has arived with Slavic migrations from 6 to 8 century.

[Norka]

I feel like E1b is unrepresented in these maps E1b was in Europe around 7000BC.

[Wrong]

I thought that he is speaking about some old I2 that might have been born in Europe or Balkans. But now that i see he is representing like I2a1 that is actually I2a Dinaric was always and still is here which is nonesense. Its pretty much clear that I2a dinaric has arived with Slavic migrations from 6 to 8 century.It should be renamed to I2-"Slavic", rather than "Dinaric" due to the confusion it causes.

[Lek]

Yeah explains why Croats and Bosniaks are so closely related to other balkanites.. Lol. Not even Serbs are close overall except for some Monteniggers. Some South Slave get pulled slightly more south due to Balkan admix but the gap is way too large overall for us to of been neighbors that long.

There is even a large enough genetic gap between some of the northernmost Albanians and southernmost ones.

Some of these northern Albanians came from Northern Illyria. They spilled south during the Slavo Avar invasions of the Roman empire. That's why the gap.

Tosks are indigenous to Epirus.

[Wrong]

Yeah explains why Croats and Bosniaks are so closely related to other balkanites.. Lol.

There is even a large enough genetic gap between some of the northernmost Albanians and southernmost ones.

Some of these northern Albanians came from Northern Illyria. They spilled south during the Slavo Avar invasions of the Roman empire. That's why the gap.

Tosks are indigenous to Epirus.To be fair, this gap could be recent, depending on grandparents origins in more southern/northern admixed places of Balkans.

Gedmatch results do not give the definite answer(and they differ between eachother), there was global similarity plots on 23andme but they deleted it due to "political incorrect".

[Lek]

I thought that he is speaking about some old I2 that might have been born in Europe or Balkans. But now that i see he is representing like I2a1 that is actually I2a Dinaric was always and still is here which is nonesense. Its pretty much clear that I2a dinaric has arived with Slavic migrations from 6 to 8 century.

There's some I2a subclades in Albanians that is not Slavic. I believe it's found in Tosks so far mostly.

[Lek]

To be fair, this gap could be recent, depending on grandparents origins in more southern/northern admixed places of Balkans.

Gedmatch results do not give the definite answer, there was global similarity plots on 23andme but they deleted it due to "political incorrect".

There is even a large gap between Italians. But it's not large like Albanian to Croatian AFAIK.

If we are Ilyrians, they inhabited a large space of land. I doubt they all plotted the same.

I've read how there were migrations from north into south (north Albania). This is also what some of our tribal history says.

But since then we must of surely mixed obv. + foreign admix.

That woah guy is probably the most Balkan admixed Croat I've come across.

[Wrong]

My paternal grandmother for example is from Ohrid and it's quite to the south in FYROM, but very rich and cultural place, imo the most beautiful place in Southern Balkans.

[Wrong]

There is even a large gap between Italians. But it's not large like Albanian to Croatian AFAIK.

If we are Ilyrians, they inhabited a large space of land. I doubt they all plotted the same.

I've read how there were migrations from north into south (north Albania). This is also what some of our tribal history says.

But since then we must of surely mixed obv. + foreign admix.J2b2(all or not all of it) came from Bosnia indeed.

Hoti tribe(J2b2) has legends of this and there are rumours they were the Thracian highland tribe of Bessoi(Besa) who destroyed the Slavo-Avars before migrating to Bosnia.
(Bessoi thing could be all bullshit, but there was alot of population movements so who knows. I would not be surprised.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

[Wrong]

Going abit offtopic here:

Paternal side ancestry circled in red, overlapping Dibra and Ohrid

Maternal side ancestry circled in blue, over Ferizaj

http://i.imgur.com/BlXIlOF.jpg

[Lek]

Going abit offtopic here:

Paternal side ancestry circled in red, overlapping Dibra and Ohrid

Maternal side ancestry circled in blue, over Ferizaj

http://i.imgur.com/BlXIlOF.jpg

Damned that's pretty south. Do you know what tribe your ferizaj side is connected to? I'm all north LOL

[Wrong]

Damned that's pretty south. Do you know what tribe your ferizaj side is connected to? I'm all north LOLHaven't asked yet, but my maternal grandfather(mothers dad) was a tall and robust man with brown hair and pale skin.

[Lek]

J2b2(all or not all of it) came from Bosnia indeed.

Hoti tribe(J2b2) has legends of this and there are rumours they were the Thracian highland tribe of Bessoi(Besa) who destroyed the Slavo-Avars before migrating to Bosnia.
(Bessoi thing could be all bullshit, but there was alot of population movements so who knows. I would not be surprised.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

AFAIK, Kuqi, Hoti, Krasniqi, Piperi, Vasojevici founders came from the North of the Balkans. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember if it was hoti that came very late. Only some hundreds years ago

Shala founders from Dardania.

[Wrong]

AFAIK, Kuqi, Hoti, Krasniqi, Piperi, Vasojevici founders came from the North of the Balkans. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember if it was hoti that came very late. Only some hundreds years ago

Shala founders from Dardania.I am personally not too well-read into the northern tribes.

The history is interesting, but one thing for sure is that we are native to the Balkans unlike all the butthurt fags that try to claim otherwise.

[Skerdilaid]

J2b2(all or not all of it) came from Bosnia indeed.

Hoti tribe(J2b2) has legends of this and there are rumours they were the Thracian highland tribe of Bessoi(Besa) who destroyed the Slavo-Avars before migrating to Bosnia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

Not that simple, the most common J2b2 cluster among us is PH1751 (close to half of our J2b2), and is almost non existent in Bosnia, not even one sample as far as I know, and quite thin up in Malesi e Madhe as well. All of their J2b2 up in Bosnia/Croatia seems to be under PH1602. As for Malesi e Madhe, only one Kastrati example so far who is PH1751. Shkreli who say came from Bosnia and part of Kelmendi are Y23094, while for Hoti and part of Krasniqi we are not certain yet what branch they fall in without SNP testing, but they don't look like they are PH1751.

The hot spot for PH1751 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=984703218), in other words of J2b2 among our lands seems to be Malesia e Gjakoves, all the way to Mirdita, so northeast Albania basically.

[Wrong]

Not that simple, the most common J2b2 cluster among us is PH1751 (close to half of our J2b2), and is almost non existent in Bosnia, not even one sample as far as I know, and quite thin up in Malesi e Madhe as well. All of their J2b2 up in Bosnia/Croatia seems to be under PH1602. As for Malesi e Madhe, only one Kastrati example so far who is PH1751. Shkreli who say came from Bosnia and part of Kelmendi are Y23094, while for Hoti and part of Krasniqi we are not certain yet what branch they fall in without SNP testing, but they don't look like they are PH1751.

The hot spot for PH1751, in other words of J2b2 among our lands seems to be Malesia e Gjakoves, all the way to Mirdita, so northeast Albania basically.I agree man, this seems more logical.

We had warlike highlanders wandering across the Dinaric mountain chains, back-and-forth migratory pattern is not unlikely to happen.

[Skerdilaid]

AFAIK, Kuqi, Hoti, Krasniqi, Piperi, Vasojevici founders came from the North of the Balkans. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't remember if it was hoti that came very late. Only some hundreds years ago

Shala founders from Dardania.

Not Kuqi, they most certainly came from further south, while Shala seem to have originated in Shiroke to my opinion because they don't seem to be related to Mirdita like tradition says. Perhaps Shoshi along with Mirdita originated in Dardania/Kosova (western Kosova most likely).

[Trojet]

As Skerdi pointed out, we have at least three J2b2 branches, with PH1751 being the most common. The Bosnian/Croatian J2b2 so far seems to be under PH1602, but it's a very diverse branch there. I have not seen any of our specific J2b2 branches up there so far, including Hoti's. I think some of our J2b2 may very well be Thracian or some Thraco-Illyrian fusion in present day central Balkans, considering some of our branches are also found in Bulgaria, however the TMRCAs (splits) date to the Bronze Age. The same can be said about some of our E-V13 branches with regards to appearing also in Bulgaria. I have also seen some divergent R1b-PF7563 there. I mean who would settle the rough mountains of North Albania. My guess is some fleeing tribes from various invasions and directions.

We still basically have nothing south of Central Albania though. So we need to see if some early splits of our branches exist there. If they do, then you could make the case that some of these branches are just indigenous North Illyrian tribes who mostly expanded during the Middle Ages.

[Norka]

I am personally not too well-read into the northern tribes.

The history is interesting, but one thing for sure is that we are native to the Balkans unlike all the butthurt fags that try to claim otherwise.

So what Albanians tend to have E-V13? My paternal side are all tall deep voiced Crimean Tatars who have Dinarid and Turanid features. As someone on this forum stated once there is a chance that my paternal line is from Albanian mercs in the Crimean peninsula. I have trouble believing it as I don't score barely any Balkan the theory I like to believe it Greek Colonists in Crimea during Bronze Age.

[Lek]

As Skerdi pointed out, we have at least three J2b2 branches, with PH1751 being the most common. The Bosnian/Croatian J2b2 so far seems to be under PH1602, but it's a very diverse branch there. I have not seen any of our specific J2b2 branches up there so far, including Hoti's. I think some of our J2b2 may very well be Thracian or some Thraco-Illyrian fusion in present day central Balkans, considering some of our branches are also found in Bulgaria, however the TMRCAs (splits) date to the Bronze Age. The same can be said about some of our E-V13 branches with regards to appearing also in Bulgaria. I have also seen some divergent R1b-PF7563 there. I mean who would settle the rough mountains of North Albania. My guess is some fleeing tribes from various invasions and directions.

We still basically have nothing south of Central Albania though. So we need to see if some early splits of our branches exist there. If they do, then you could make the case that some of these branches are just indigenous North Illyrian tribes who mostly expanded during the Middle Ages.


Not Kuqi, they most certainly came from further south, while Shala seem to have originated in Shiroke to my opinion because they don't seem to be related to Mirdita like tradition says. Perhaps Shoshi along with Mirdita originated in Dardania/Kosova (western Kosova most likely).

Zatrijebač (Albanian: Triesh) is a sub-region of Kuči, located in the "Kuči frontier" (Kučka Krajina), which also compose Orahovo, Koći and Fundina.[21]

The historical tribe of Zatrijebač, as well as Hoti, claim descendance from a certain Keq Preka.[22]

It's from wiki though. But there's is the book tribes of Albania which gives more info and not chetnik propaganda

Keq Preka was said to of hailed from Herzegovina highlands if I'm correct. I don't know if if this is believed to of been for the actual kuq. Hoti came from north? From what I have read shala have their legend they came from dardania

Ydna distributions don't mean much at all.

J-ph1751 is barely even found in the rest of the Balkans regardless of where you put it's origin. AFAIK. We are most likely talking here of a bottleneck or founder effect.


A lot of Krasniqis tested for j2b2. This tribes founders certainly came from more north from what I read. Same with Hoti. Vasojevici are also of said to of come more north and are connected to kuq?

While fustan says his maternal side came from south. Which are possibly kuq.

I get a j2b from Bosnia but that's on 12 markers.

[Trojet]

Zatrijebač (Albanian: Triesh) is a sub-region of Kuči, located in the "Kuči frontier" (Kučka Krajina), which also compose Orahovo, Koći and Fundina.[21]

The historical tribe of Zatrijebač, as well as Hoti, claim descendance from a certain Keq Preka.[22]

It's from wiki though. But there's is the book tribes of Albania which gives more info and not chetnik propaganda

Keq Preka was said to of hailed from Herzegovina highlands if I'm correct. I don't know if if this is believed to of been for the actual kuq.

Ydna distributions don't mean much at all.

J-ph1751 is barely even found in the rest of the Balkans regardless of where you put it's origin. AFAIK. We are most likely talking here of a bottleneck or founder.


A lot of Krasniqis tested for j2b2. This tribes founders certainly came from more north from what I read. Same with Hoti. Vasojevici are also of said to of come more north and are connected to kuq?

While fustan says his maternal side came from south. Which are possibly kuq.

You may be right that some of these eventually came from the North and basically left no trace there. But those are just some oral tradition and I would take them as such.

However, I'm basing my theories based on present genetic evidence. When it comes to our subgroup of PH1751 I see no evidence that it came from further North, rather it expanded most likely from NC to NE Albania.

However, some of these E-V13 subclades may have come from further North, considering they are found there.

[Lek]

Not that simple, the most common J2b2 cluster among us is PH1751 (close to half of our J2b2), and is almost non existent in Bosnia, not even one sample as far as I know, and quite thin up in Malesi e Madhe as well. All of their J2b2 up in Bosnia/Croatia seems to be under PH1602. As for Malesi e Madhe, only one Kastrati example so far who is PH1751. Shkreli who say came from Bosnia and part of Kelmendi are Y23094, while for Hoti and part of Krasniqi we are not certain yet what branch they fall in without SNP testing, but they don't look like they are PH1751.

The hot spot for PH1751 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KSmZNQYh6MYkcLMBTQUT3vRseKd450hbbUvBs_j0CkU/edit#gid=984703218), in other words of J2b2 among our lands seems to be Malesia e Gjakoves, all the way to Mirdita, so northeast Albania basically.

The Krasniqi me and fustan match you think is not originally a Krasniq? So he was shal or gash? Certainly not gash.

I don't expect to find jph1751 or any other Albanian j2b in Bosnia. A lot of those lands were depopulated of it's indigenous population like dardania. Besides the ydna distribution there is a founder effect.

[Coolguy1]

IceT, do all Ghegs belong to tribes? Is there a cutoff border with Tosks? I have a friend from Preshevo and asked him what his tribe was and he does not know.

[Trojet]

The Krasniqi me and fustan match you think is not originally a Krasniq? So he was shal or gash? Certainly not gash.

I don't expect to find jph1751 or any other Albanian j2b in Bosnia. A lot of those lands were depopulated of it's indigenous population like dardania. Besides the ydna distribution there is a founder effect.

We do have a total of three Krasniqis who are under PH1751. One of them is tested at Geno. The fourth J2b2 Krasniq is actually matching the Hoti cluster and not related to the other two, so he may very well have been Hot originally. Therefore we see no evidence that Hoti and Krasniqi are related, even though both J2b2.

Fustan's situation is interesting. At first he thought he is Krasniq. But then one of his family members told him they are Shala. However it's clear Shala e fisit are R1b, and Fustan's haplotype is closest to Krasniq. And then we have you and another Gash who have the same haplotype as the other two Krasniq (three when we include the Geno tester). So make what you want of it lol.

[Skerdilaid]

The Krasniqi me and fustan match you think is not originally a Krasniq? So he was shal or gash? Certainly not gash.

I don't expect to find jph1751 or any other Albanian j2b in Bosnia. A lot of those lands were depopulated of it's indigenous population like dardania. Besides the ydna distribution there is a founder effect.

I don't know, it might be as Trojet stated that they are probably not related but I remain of opinion that they are until we actually test some confirmed Krasniqi brotherhoods from Tropoje, like Kolgecaj or Kolmeksh. We also have V13 Krasniqi so in all honesty we don't know which line Krasniqi i fisit belong to - most of our tested Krasniqi are from Kosove and Serbia who don't know which brotherhood they belong to, so we can't tie them to any of the brotherhoods from their tribal lands. What's interesting is that before Krasniqi settled Tropoje, in its current tribal territory was Gashi's centre, specifically in Selimaj of Geghysenaj. Gashi were pushed by them and displaced from their original tribal land, and I believe some they even absorbed - this is where I think they acquired/got their PH1751, therefore I am of the opinion that Gashi i fisit (original Gashi) belong to your cluster. The other two branches that joined forces, Shipshaj and Bardhet are V13-L241.

Not sure currently, he might be Krasniq or with origins from Mirdite or Shoshe and identified as Shale because of their tradition being related - Shala were more numerous and powerful in Kosove so makes sense. Pretty common phenomenon, for example Shllak in Kosove identify as Gash for the same reason - Shllaku, Gashi (only the Luzha branch now days, your cluster), Topllane and Megulle going by oral traditions descent from 4 brothers.

[Skerdilaid]

Zatrijebač (Albanian: Triesh) is a sub-region of Kuči, located in the "Kuči frontier" (Kučka Krajina), which also compose Orahovo, Koći and Fundina.[21]

The historical tribe of Zatrijebač, as well as Hoti, claim descendance from a certain Keq Preka.[22].

Trieshi is not part of Kuqi, Koja e Kuqit is. Trieshi are split between the Anas (indigenous) and the Bankeqi descendants, who should be related to Hoti going by traditions. Nikprelaj, who are Triesh, most certianly Anas, have tested as BY611, so they belong to my cluster - old Hoti (Marashi from Podgorica who are with origins from Vuksanlekaj) have also tested as such and seem to be closely related to Nikprelaj.

[Dema]

I don't know, it might be as Trojet stated that they are probably not related but I remain of opinion that they are until we actually test some confirmed Krasniqi brotherhoods from Tropoje, like Kolgecaj or Kolmeksh. We also have V13 Krasniqi so in all honesty we don't know which line Krasniqi i fisit belong to - most of our tested Krasniqi are from Kosove and Serbia who don't know which brotherhood they belong to. What's interesting is that before Krasniqi settled Tropoje, in its current tribal territory was Gashi's centre, specifically in Selimaj of Geghysenaj. Gashi were pushed by them and displaced from their original tribal land, and I believe some they even absorbed - this is where I think they acquired/got their PH1751, therefore I am of the opinion that Gashi i fisit (original Gashi) belong to your cluster. The other two branches that joined forces, Shipshaj and Bardhet are V13-L241.

Not sure currently, he might be with origins from Mirdite or Shoshe and identified as Shale because of their tradition being related - Shala were more numerous and powerful in Kosove so makes sense. Pretty common phenomenon, for example Shllak in Kosove identify as Gash for the same reason - Shllaku, Gashi (only the Luzha branch now days, your cluster), Topllane and Megulle going by oral traditions descend from 4 brothers.

What about Krasniqi from Marevc, thats my mothers side, i might test them in near future. I know they are known for blood feuds but not much more.

[Skerdilaid]

What about Krasniqi from Marevc, thats my mothers side, i might test them in near future. I know they are known for blood feuds but not much more.

Not sure, they haven't tested yet.

[Dema]

Not sure, they haven't tested yet.

Any info on them? How can i know are they original Krasniq, surname sounds Islamized - Ibrahimi

[Skerdilaid]

Any info on them? How can i know are they original Krasniq, surname sounds Islamized - Ibrahimi

I can look them up, but most likely they don't remember from which settlement of Krasniqi they originate, so won't help us much on regards to finding out what the Krasniqi i fisit are. Not surprising, Krasniqi are wholly Muslims, their brother Clan though Nikaj are all Catholic (the Catholic Krasniqi in western Kosove for example are Nikaj, but identify as Krasniq because of their influence and protection they offered them).

[Dema]

I can look them up, but most likely they don't remember from which settlement of Krasniqi they originate, so won't help us much on regards to finding out what the Krasniqi i fisit are. Not surprising, Krasniqi are wholly Muslims, their brother Clan though Nikaj are all Catholic (the Catholic Krasniqi in western Kosove for example are Nikaj, but identify as Krasniq because of their influence and protection they offered them).

Ok check them. And are Nikaj and Krasniqi related thru ydna? I see that Krasniqi are both Ev13 and j2b2 but there is more j2b2 so it looks like these ev13 joined for whatever reason. This will be even more confirmed if Kreshnik gets j2b2. Also if i would have to guess haplo of my uncles i would say j2b2, Levantine noses and Mediterranean Dinarid Gheg looking :D i would say 80% j2b2

[Skerdilaid]

Ok check them. And are Nikaj and Krasniqi related thru ydna? I see that Krasniqi are both Ev13 and j2b2 but there is more j2b2 so it looks like these ev13 joined for whatever reason. This will be even more confirmed if Kreshnik gets j2b2. Also if i would have to guess haplo of my uncles i would say j2b2, Levantine noses and Mediterranean Dinarid Gheg looking :D i would say 80% j2b2

No Nikaj has tested thus far so we don't know - to keep in mind not all Nikaj are related to Krasniqi, majority are though by tradition. Lol, without testing confirmed brotherhoods in Tropoje we can never be sure, as I have already pointed it out.

[Dema]

No Nikaj has tested thus far so we don't know - to keep in mind not all Nikaj are related to Krasniqi, majority are though by tradition. Lol, without testing confirmed brotherhoods in Tropoje we can never be sure, as I have already pointed it out.

It would be nice if i was j2b1 and j2b2 cross. Also i know mothers maternal side is Berish so i got my harmony little disrupted there with E-v13 blood :D

[The Illyrian Warrior]

It would be nice if i was j2b1 and j2b2 cross. Also i know mothers maternal side is Berish so i got my harmony little disrupted there with E-v13 blood :D

My mother is Berisha aswell (from father side - Drenica), I don't know what her male lineage will get though....Perhaps Skerdilaid will know it better.

[Trojet]

Këto biseda mendoj më mirë t'i kemi te Foleja (http://foleja.net).
Po nejse...

[knowledge is king]

How they managed to create this map at the first place when they have no living specimens? Via archaeological studies?