Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

[Jana]

There is also notable lack of middle eastern and Anatolian haplogroups among south Slavs, this J2b1 M205 are large minority. Vast majority of pre-Slavic branches seem native.
I know Croat with Armenian/MENA like R1b but that's really not common at all.

If there was large Imperial Roman input (male soldier transmitted one), it should be reflected in the haplogroups and so far nothing indicates in such direction.

No, I think Roman influence was modest and pre-Slavic population couldn't be lot more southern than central Italians (Abruzzo max), and that ofc proto Slavs were very much northern like, not like Ukrainians.
Thus Slavic input is significantly lower and native higher than in lately popular estimates.

Let's wait for more samples to see. I heard we will get Slavs from Prague Korchak culture soo (very relevant for south Slavs). I place a bet they will be Belarussian-Lithuanian like.

[vbnetkhio]

Germanic influence shouldn't be underestimated. When I2a and R1a is removed from Dalmatian Croats, the I1 jumps to 20%. In south Serbia, it goes to 3%
Dalmatian croats -27% North Atlantic, South Serbs - 23%

[Jana]

Germanic influence shouldn't be underestimated. When I2a and R1a is removed from Dalmatian Croats, the I1 jumps to 20%. In south Serbia, it goes to 3%
Dalmatian croats -27% North Atlantic, South Serbs - 23%

Yes.
But Serbs have overall higher I1 than Croats. Isn't it 20%+ in some parts of Raška/Sandžak and also high in Dalmatian Serbs?. Indeed there was Germanic influence too.
Not all northern input is from Slavs. In Slovenia and NW Croatia too, there was Celtic type of input and than later German.

[Varda]

J2b2 L283 and it subcaldes seems to be main Illyrian marker, found in ancient Dalmatian and notably present in Daunians of Apulia, who were of Illyrian origin. Also various branches of R1b L23.
E-V13 seems notably absent so far from Illyrian related regions and samples but it was highly present among Moesians.

Thus Thracians seem to be highly E-V13.

Modern Albanians are not pure Illyrian, their old Balkan ancestry is mix of Illyrians (J2b2, some R1b) and Thracians, maybe some Greeks as well (E-V13) roughly speaking. This would correspond of central Balkans as transitional Illyrio-Thracian zone as origin of proto-Albanian language, far away from the sea which explains lack of native maritime vocabulary in Albanian language.

Roughly speaking ex Dardania and in close contact with proto-Romanian.

Among Dalmatian Croatians J2b-M205 is stronger than J2b-M241.

Neša (you know him from anthro.) posted statistic for Dalmatian Croatians from 23andMe (163 samples), J2b-M205 is 4.2% and J2b-M241 is 0.6% https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=146.msg162291#msg162291

[Jana]

Among Dalmatian Croatians J2b-M205 is stronger than J2b-M241.

Neša (you know him from anthro.) posted statistic for Dalmatian Croatians from 23andMe (163 samples), J2b-M205 is 4.2% and J2b-M241 is 0.6% https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=146.msg162291#msg162291

No, I don't think so. I never saw my match with J2b1 and I have "many" matches with J2b2.

this says the same, J2 is Dalmatia is more J2b than J2a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Croats

[vbnetkhio]

Yes.
But Serbs have overall higher I1 than Croats. Isn't it 20%+ in some parts of Raška/Sandžak and also high in Dalmatian Serbs?. Indeed there was Germanic influence too.
Not all northern input is from Slavs. In Slovenia and NW Croatia too, there was Celtic type of input and than later German.

Most of that could be from the recent Drobnjaci founder effect.

[Varda]

Yes.
But Serbs have overall higher I1 than Croats. Isn't it 20%+ in some parts of Raška/Sandžak and also high in Dalmatian Serbs?. Indeed there was Germanic influence too.
Not all northern input is from Slavs. In Slovenia and NW Croatia too, there was Celtic type of input and than later German.

I1 among Dalmatian Serbs is 20%+ only with 13-14 tested Macure. With reduced Macure (when only 1 Macura is counted) it's lower but still high.

Nothern Dalmatian Serbs posted by Neša in August this year (116 samples) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1494.msg161471#msg161471
I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I1 = 14.7%
E1b = 12.1%
R1a = 9.5%
J2b = 7.8%
N2 = 7.8%
R1b = 3.4%
J1 = 2.6%

[Jana]

I know one Dalmatian with J2b1 (not my match though), and he is from Kaštela, his lineages documented deeply into pre-Ottoman times in that town.
So my theory is that J2b1 spread into mountains of Montenegro from Dalmatian coast, where it arrived in Roman times from orient and later there was back migration west with movement of Slavophone orthodox sheperds.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dalmatian from Kaštela has older mutation than Kriči do have.

[Jana]

I1 among Dalmatian Serbs is 20%+ only with 13-14 tested Macure. With reduced Macure (when only 1 Macura is counted) it's lower but still high.

Nothern Dalmatian Serbs posted by Neša in August this year (116 samples) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1494.msg161471#msg161471
I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I1 = 14.7%
E1b = 12.1%
R1a = 9.5%
J2b = 7.8%
N2 = 7.8%
R1b = 3.4%
J1 = 2.6%

Yes, high I1. But just like I2 in Herzegovina Croats, it can be results of founder effect among herding populations in sparsely populated area.

[Arūnas]

Balkan Saga continues, nice

[vbnetkhio]

I1 among Dalmatian Serbs is 20%+ only with 13-14 tested Macure. With reduced Macure (when only 1 Macura is counted) it's lower but still high.

Nothern Dalmatian Serbs posted by Neša in August this year (116 samples) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1494.msg161471#msg161471
I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I1 = 14.7%
E1b = 12.1%
R1a = 9.5%
J2b = 7.8%
N2 = 7.8%
R1b = 3.4%
J1 = 2.6%

they have one of the highest NA among Serbs too:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?342186-Serbian-autosomal-DNA-2&p=7356444&viewfull=1#post7356444

So NA in South Slavs correlates mostly with late-Roman Germanic influence.

[Varda]

Yes, high I1. But just like I2 in Herzegovina Croats, it can be results of founder effect among herding populations in sparsely populated area.

Among Dalmatian Serbs I1 is also diverse. Of 14.7% in total P109 is 6%, Z63 5.2%, M227 1.7%, and Z58 1.7%. There is 4 different branches, or even 5 because one who is P109 doesn't belong to Drobnjak cluster unlike others P109.

[Jana]

they have one of the highest NA among Serbs too:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?342186-Serbian-autosomal-DNA-2&p=7356444&viewfull=1#post7356444

So NA in South Slavs correlates mostly with late-Roman Germanic influence.

Interesting. Adriatic Islanders have high NA too but I tought it could be more preserved Illyrian ancestry (maybe it isn't).
How do you explain high NA in Macedonian Slavs? They often get it more than Baltic.

[vbnetkhio]

Interesting. Adriatic Islanders have high NA too but I tought it could be more preserved Illyrian ancestry (maybe it isn't).
How do you explain high NA in Macedonian Slavs? They often get it more than Baltic.

pre-Slavic Balkanians certainly had more NA than Baltic, regardless how high was the Roman admixture. So naturally Balkanians with low Slavic influence will tend to have more NA.

[Roy]

There is also notable lack of middle eastern and Anatolian haplogroups among south Slavs, this J2b1 M205 are large minority. Vast majority of pre-Slavic branches seem native.
I know Croat with Armenian/MENA like R1b but that's really not common at all.

If there was large Imperial Roman input (male soldier transmitted one), it should be reflected in the haplogroups and so far nothing indicates in such direction.

No, I think Roman influence was modest and pre-Slavic population couldn't be lot more southern than central Italians (Abruzzo max), and that ofc proto Slavs were very much northern like, not like Ukrainians.
Thus Slavic input is significantly lower and native higher than in lately popular estimates.

Let's wait for more samples to see. I heard we will get Slavs from Prague Korchak culture soo (very relevant for south Slavs). I place a bet they will be Belarussian-Lithuanian like.

Do you know from which burial site(s) are those Prague Korchak samples?

This culture mostly practiced cremation, so it has to be pretty tough to find their DNA.

[Varda]

they have one of the highest NA among Serbs too:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?342186-Serbian-autosomal-DNA-2&p=7356444&viewfull=1#post7356444

So NA in South Slavs correlates mostly with late-Roman Germanic influence.

Except high and diverse I1 in Dalmatian Serbs, there is 3 R1b-U106 Dalmatian Serb families recently discovered. Cvitkovac and Petković from Maovice (Vrlika), and Đaković from Vrbnik (Knin).

Cvitkovac https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=6264.msg164277#msg164277

Petković https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=6264.msg164284#msg164284

[Dušan]

this J2b1 M205 are large minority. Vast majority of pre-Slavic branches seem native.


It reaches 10% among Serbs from Croatia (cca 5% among Serbs in general), while among Croats, and any other surrounding nation, it is almost absent with cca 1%.
Difference is obvious.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I'd say they did not, because AV2 in Hungary was Belarusian like, but we'd need more samples.

Unfortunately I must agree with you regarding the scarcity of samples analyzed, but if I remember correctly AV2 had a close relative that was AV1, which was already mixed with more "southern" populations. We'll see what scenarios future samples have in store for us.

Geo-political situation at the time of the samples
https://i.imgur.com/vF3qUv7.png

Eurogenes K13
https://i.imgur.com/jJeCXIZ.png

Global25
https://i.imgur.com/w2767dO.png

[Varda]

According to this statistic down J2b-M205 is 4.2% in Dalmatian Croatians.
Among Bosniaks J2b-M205 is the highest in Bosanska Krajina.


Among Dalmatian Croatians J2b-M205 is stronger than J2b-M241.

Neša (you know him from anthro.) posted statistic for Dalmatian Croatians from 23andMe (163 samples), J2b-M205 is 4.2% and J2b-M241 is 0.6% https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=146.msg162291#msg162291


It reaches 10% among Serbs from Croatia (cca 5% among Serbs in general), while among Croats, and any other surrounding nation, it is almost absent with cca 1%.
Difference is obvious.

[rothaer]

Sorb_Niederlausitz distances using Global25:

Is it the Beeskow woman?

[-Scar-]

I1 among Dalmatian Serbs is 20%+ only with 13-14 tested Macure. With reduced Macure (when only 1 Macura is counted) it's lower but still high.

Nothern Dalmatian Serbs posted by Neša in August this year (116 samples) https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1494.msg161471#msg161471
I2-Y3120 = 42.2%
I1 = 14.7%
E1b = 12.1%
R1a = 9.5%
J2b = 7.8%
N2 = 7.8%
R1b = 3.4%
J1 = 2.6%

I1 is so high. Could it be of Slavic origin?
I find it hard to believe Goths had such an impact in Balkans.

[DejanMarkovic]

Bosniaks, Croatians, Slovenes, etc. Serbians are true Slavs! Bulgarians and Macedonians are not even Slavs at all! Why mention them? Turks! All of them!

[Jana]

I1 is so high. Could it be of Slavic origin?

No.


I find it hard to believe Goths had such an impact in Balkans.
Percentages are irrelevant. These are small subgroups where lot of haplotypes descend from few men.

[-Scar-]

No.


Percentages are irrelevant. These are small subgroups where lot of haplotypes descend from few men.

Aha I see thanks. What I meant is that Slavs could've picked some I1 before migrating to Balkans.

[Jana]

Aha I see thanks. What I meant is that Slavs could've picked some I1 before migrating to Balkans.

Yes, but I doubt. One of I1 in Serbs is of Norman origin (came via Sicily) other is more Gothic, they share clade with a Belarusian iirc but if it was absorbed by Slavs it would be widespread among various Slavic groups.
For rest of I1 haplotypes not sure.

Kowalenko Goths and Langobards has lot of I1 if I am not mistaken. Perhaps Gepids too.

[gixajo]

The least Slavic genetically of the Slavs it´s me.

[Varda]

I1 is so high. Could it be of Slavic origin?
I find it hard to believe Goths had such an impact in Balkans.

I believe that part of I1 among Serbs and other South Slavs came with Slavs (Slavs probably assimilated some Germanic people in central and eastern Europe before migration). Sorbs have high I1, i think it's their second strongest haplo after the R1a.

[RogueState]

According to this statistic down J2b-M205 is 4.2% in Dalmatian Croatians.
Among Bosniaks J2b-M205 is the highest in Bosanska Krajina.

Among us in Sandzak, the dominant J2 subclade is J2b-M241, the total J2 is above 14% while among Bosnia Bosniaks, it's less 3,7% (and mostly J2b-M205)
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/197527585_4074270879361040_4002358936981179959_n-jpg.943840/
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/197590094_4073599789428149_8940655167078727622_n-jpg.945549/

[Varda]

I1 is so high. Could it be of Slavic origin?
I find it hard to believe Goths had such an impact in Balkans.


I believe that part of I1 among Serbs and other South Slavs came with Slavs (Slavs probably assimilated some Germanic people in central and eastern Europe before migration). Sorbs have high I1, i think it's their second strongest haplo after the R1a.

Slavicised Germans (down) http://www.macure.net/en/Home#!Genetika_TeorijeoPorekluPlemenaMacura

[JohnnyP]

Interesting. Adriatic Islanders have high NA too but I tought it could be more preserved Illyrian ancestry (maybe it isn't).
How do you explain high NA in Macedonian Slavs? They often get it more than Baltic.

Yeah , Macedonians have in 90% cases more NA than Baltic but I have also few with really high NA , for sure from pre-slavic - balkans ( Macedonians/Illyrians )

Also Helladic Logkas 04 sample from Middle Bronze age have high NA,


Population
North_Atlantic 27.02 Pct
Baltic 17.23 Pct
West_Med 18.01 Pct
West_Asian 13.06 Pct
East_Med 18.04 Pct
Red_Sea 1.55 Pct
South_Asian 0.08 Pct
East_Asian 0.5 Pct
Siberian 0.83 Pct
Amerindian 2.35 Pct
Oceanian 0.3 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.13 Pct



Similar modern Macedonians with really high NA:

Population
North_Atlantic 27.57 Pct
Baltic 17.4 Pct
West_Med 19.09 Pct
West_Asian 10.32 Pct
East_Med 19.86 Pct
Red_Sea 3.94 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.08 Pct
Oceanian 0.75 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Population
North_Atlantic 29.57 Pct
Baltic 21.12 Pct
West_Med 20.79 Pct
West_Asian 5.65 Pct
East_Med 19.51 Pct
Red_Sea 2.09 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.22 Pct
Siberian 0.05 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Population
North_Atlantic 27.22 Pct
Baltic 20.47 Pct
West_Med 17.57 Pct
West_Asian 13.12 Pct
East_Med 17.72 Pct
Red_Sea 1.04 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 2.08 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.78 Pct



Population
North_Atlantic 30.35 Pct
Baltic 21.82 Pct
West_Med 18.71 Pct
West_Asian 8.94 Pct
East_Med 17.56 Pct
Red_Sea 1.92 Pct
South_Asian 0.26 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.33 Pct
Amerindian 0.06 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

[CommonSense]

Stearsolina denies the influence of Roman colonization, and based on the presence of these haplogroups, it is clear that it took place.

This is reflected in autosomal genetics, meaning the pre-Slavic part was a little more southern than without Roman colonization, which means the proto-Slavic part is about 60% or more.

Yes, even using the most genetically southern sample, from the Iron Age period in Bulgaria, you still have to add MLBA Anatolian or Cappadiocian Greek samples to get a more accurate model.

[Dušan]

Yes, even using the most genetically southern sample, from the Iron Age period in Bulgaria, you still have to add MLBA Anatolian or Cappadiocian Greek samples to get a more accurate model.

True.
It is nothing wierd to get Sicilian in mixed mode, with some northern Slav average.

[CommonSense]

True.
It is nothing wierd to get Sicilian in mixed mode, with some northern Slav average.

Sometimes even Cypriot can be used as a proxy, lol. This what my mom gets in Eurogenes K13 oracles two population distance:

5 70.9% Ukrainian + 29.1% Cyprian @ 3.63
6 61.3% Southwest_Russian + 38.7% South_Italian @ 3.68

[Roy]

Sometimes even Cypriot can be used as a proxy, lol. This what my mom gets in Eurogenes K13 oracles two population distance:

5 70.9% Ukrainian + 29.1% Cyprian @ 3.63
6 61.3% Southwest_Russian + 38.7% South_Italian @ 3.68

3.63 or higher are not good fits at all.

[Roy]

Double

[CommonSense]

3.63 or higher are not good fits at all.

It's still a relevant indicator though.

Also, I'll take this opportunity to demonstrate another example. If I remove all Balkan and Balkan-admixed populations from the source tab in vahaduo, the Serbian average gets modelled using a mix of North Slavs, North Italians and Cappadocian Greeks. The latter two acting as a proxy for 'Paleo-Balkan':

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.4737% / 0.47368605 | R4P
48.0 Belarusian_Minsk
26.5 Italian_Trentino
19.7 Greek_Cappadocian
5.8 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.8789% / 0.87889566 | R3P
61.1 Polish_Silesia
21.3 French_Corsica
17.6 Greek_Cappadocian


The Thracian sample from Bulgaria is rather close to modern-day Corsicans, by the way:

Distance to: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
7.91786587 French_Corsica
9.27951507 Italian_Lazio
9.87052177 Italian_Marche
10.09024281 Italian_Umbria
11.16326117 Italian_Tuscan
11.26628599 Italian_Romagna
11.74729756 Italian_Abruzzo
11.75408440 Italian
11.93531734 Italian_Molise
12.28392038 Italian_Sicily
12.29196486 Italian_Apulia
12.41296902 Italian_Basilicata
13.26128953 Greek_Western-Thrace
13.31609552 Italian_Campania
13.43489486 Italian_Emilia
13.95051970 Italian_Liguria
14.37559738 Malta
14.56942346 Greek_Cyclades
14.56986616 Moroccan_Jew
14.84789547 Italian_Calabria
15.40336002 Greek_Athens
15.53956241 Italian_Lombardy
16.22616714 Greek_Ionia
16.25672476 Albanian_Tosk
16.34854734 Greek_Central

[Jana]

I get this in K12b, very close fit:

Distance: 1.0433% / 1.04325842 | R2P

62.8 Sorb_Lusatia
37.2 Greek_Macedonia

[Peterski]

I get this in K12b, very close fit:

Distance: 1.0433% / 1.04325842 | R2P

62.8 Sorb_Lusatia
37.2 Greek_Macedonia

Have you already tried modeling yourself with Iron Age Slovenian samples?

[Jana]

Have you already tried modeling yourself with Iron Age Slovenian samples?

I did not. It makes more sense for people like Ph2ter.

[Nausevar]

Among us in Sandzak, the dominant J2 subclade is J2b-M241, the total J2 is above 14% while among Bosnia Bosniaks, it's less 3,7% (and mostly J2b-M205)
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/197527585_4074270879361040_4002358936981179959_n-jpg.943840/
https://forum.krstarica.com/attachments/197590094_4073599789428149_8940655167078727622_n-jpg.945549/

Have you ever considered yourself a Bosniak? If you did, did you stop doing that after discovering the truth about Sandzak Muslims?


I am probably one of the least slavic Serbs from Dalmatia. I have only 25.73% Baltic, and I also have a pre-slavic y-haplogroup.
I discovered my father's surname was present in Brda region of Montenegro where J-L283 is more frequent, and they could have migrated from there to Dalmatia. My mother's surname had changed and the previous surname was present near Trebinje and it's written that they migrated to northern Dalmatia.

[Polak]

Another example similar to Kramkowski, is Teutonski from our forum.



I don't think it is "central". The whole region is located in the western half of Poland.

There is Lubusz Voivodeship to the west, but this region is "thin" from west-to-east:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubusz_Voivodeship

Central Poland is rather Lodz Voivodeship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C3%B3d%C5%BA_Voivodeship

The Western parts of Lodz (around Leczyca and Sieradz) have quite heavy recent Germanic admix (due to Oleders) and ancient Celtic admix because they inhabited those lands.