Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

[Sikeliot]

It has to be one of these:

Poles
Czechs
Slovakians
Slovenes
Bulgarians
Macedonians

But which? The latter two are obviously Hellenized, and Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, and even maybe Slovenes would be influenced by Germanic people.

[Hamlet]

Dodecad says Macedonia is the least Eastern European, but there is the off chance that more Bulgarian E. European admixture is non-Slavic (predates Slavs) than that of Macedonians, with the difference being greater than that shown by dodecad as the case where the answer is Bulgaria.

Also, it's so obviously not Poland :P

[Lek]

Bulgarians.

[Hadouken]

Croats and Slovenes maybe

[pelikarski]

Greeks imo

[Peterski]

Definitely Bulgarians or Macedonians. Macedonians are probably about as Slavic-admixed as Romanians, or even less.

Slovenes are likely the most Slavic of South Slavs, considering that they can score 40-50% "North Slavic" in DNA Land.

I saw one Bulgarian result and he scored 25% "North Slavic" in DNA Land. Seya (Romanian) scores 17% "North Slavic".

Please note that Proto-Slavs most likely did not score 100% "North Slavic". But we don't have Proto-Slavic aDNA.

West Slavs also have Celtic admixture (apart from Germanic).

==============================================

Northern Belarusians may actually be more Baltic than Slavic. But Balts are genetically very similar to Slavs anyway.


Croats and Slovenes maybe

These are actually the most genetically Slavic of South Slavs. The least Slavic are Bulgarians or Macedonians.

[Profileid]

Slavic is a NOT a genetic term. It is a linguistic term only.You are slavic by virtue of speaking a Slavic language and nothing else.
The amount of disinformation you routinely spread is quite frustrating.

[Peterski]

Slavic is a NOT a genetic term. It is a linguistic term only.You are slavic by virtue of speaking a Slavic language and nothing else.
The amount of disinformation you routinely spread is quite frustrating.

Actually Slavic-speaking groups are more closely related to each other than Germanic-speaking groups.

So if you think that for example Germanic is a genetic term (do you?) then Slavic is a genetic term too.

[Antimage]

Slavic is a NOT a genetic term. It is a linguistic term only.You are slavic by virtue of speaking a Slavic language and nothing else.
The amount of disinformation you routinely spread is quite frustrating.

In Russia a lot of non-slavic eurasian people like Mordvins, Tatars, Bashkirs etc speak Russian as a native language.

[Livia Drusilla]

Bulgarians and Macedonians probably.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Definitely Bulgarians or Macedonians. Macedonians are probably about as Slavic-admixed as Romanians, or even less.

Slovenes are likely the most Slavic of South Slavs, considering that they can score 40-50% "North Slavic" in DNA Land.

I saw one Bulgarian result and he scored 25% "North Slavic" in DNA Land. Seya (Romanian) scores 17% "North Slavic".

Please note that Proto-Slavs most likely did not score 100% "North Slavic". But we don't have Proto-Slavic aDNA.

West Slavs also have Celtic admixture (apart from Germanic).

==============================================

Northern Belarusians may actually be more Baltic than Slavic. But Balts are genetically very similar to Slavs anyway.



These are actually the most genetically Slavic of South Slavs. The least Slavic are Bulgarians or Macedonians.
I was gunna say Croats are more Slavic because Slovenes have more R1b but Slovenes also have more R1a, so.

Who do you think are the most Slavic/closest to the original invaders? I wanna say SE Poland because of the high amount of R1a but even there you could have Germanic/Celtic or Baltic admixture, and I wanna say SW Russia around Belgorod for the same reason but they will have Uralic admixture and more Mongoloid would be present in other Slavs. Belarus should have too much Baltic. That's why I usually go with NW Ukrainians, less likely to have Germanic/Baltic and they also have the most amount of I2a1(of North Slavs) if you wanna believe Balkan I2a1 is from Slavs. Lots of Slavic expansion maps puts the origin of the migrations from NW Ukraine.

Maybe Sorbs in Saxony? I've seen PCA plots of them where they plot east of Poles so they shouldn't be German admixed. Also 70% R1a(but this can also happen via other means).

and yes, there are definitely "most genetically Slavic, Germanic, Celtic", etc. The people who expanded and spread the language have the closest ties to the language and the best claim on it. Pretty common sense. The most Indo-Iranian people are the Erzya/Mordvins or east Ukrainians(depends if you wanna use Altai Andronovo or Kazakh/Volga Sintashta), the most Germanic people are North Dutch or south Scandinavians, the most Celtic I have no idea but it's probably not British Isles people, Celts only went their as elites, not a mass migration.

Also, I think Montenegrins may be less Slavic than both Bulgarians and Macedonians. Less R1a.

[Peterski]

if you wanna believe Balkan I2a1 is from Slavs.

Yeah, I2a-Din probably also came with Slavs.


the most Celtic I have no idea but it's probably not British Isles people, Celts only went their as elites, not a mass migration.

So what languages were spoken there before?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Yeah, I2a-Din probably also came with Slavs.



So what languages were spoken there before?
I dunno, proto-Germanic/Celtic/Italic? You know the Celts only invaded the British Isles in 500 BC right? There was no population displacement and there have been papers that claimed most of the Briton genome(this isn't including Anglo-Saxon admixture which is around 30% for English) was there from the bronze age.

Celts are from Austria/Bavaria/Switzerland, why would they be modern Irish like?

The problem with Dinaric I2a1b1 is it's supposed to be a very new haplogroup but it's found in Cardium Pottery culture in Spain and in a neolithic German.

[Peterski]

Who do you think are the most Slavic/closest to the original invaders?

I think that Early Slavs could be a bit heterogeneous already before 500 AD.

Some of their groups were probably more similar to Balts, other groups less.


most of the Briton genome (...) was there from the bronze age.

Is it impossible that those Bronze Age people already spoke some Proto-Celtic?


You know the Celts only invaded the British Isles in 500 BC right?

I know that this used to be the mainstream theory, but maybe it is wrong.

[wvwvw]

Bulgarians

[Zmey Gorynych]

Definitely Bulgarians or Macedonians. Macedonians are probably about as Slavic-admixed as Romanians, or even less.

Slovenes are likely the most Slavic of South Slavs, considering that they can score 40-50% "North Slavic" in DNA Land.

I saw one Bulgarian result and he scored 25% "North Slavic" in DNA Land. Seya (Romanian) scores 17% "North Slavic".

Please note that Proto-Slavs most likely did not score 100% "North Slavic". But we don't have Proto-Slavic aDNA.

West Slavs also have Celtic admixture (apart from Germanic).

==============================================

Northern Belarusians may actually be more Baltic than Slavic. But Balts are genetically very similar to Slavs anyway.



These are actually the most genetically Slavic of South Slavs. The least Slavic are Bulgarians or Macedonians.
You seem to be very lax in your use of terms. The so called DNA Land's North Slavic component peaks in lithuanians and latvians so if anything that component should be called baltic and by your own logic north slavs are basterdized balts or lesser balts. The most appropriate term would probably be north-eastern european. Etain is right, slavic is a linguistic term not a genetic one. Slavs from Southern Europe are mix of north-easterns and balkanites (if that's an appropriate term) hence their genetic make up.
Seya is, by her own admission, part greek .. or at least that's what she had written in her profile a while a ago. That doesn't mean she's not romanian. There are 2 other romanians who took the test - myself and tschort. I score 55% of that "glorious" north slavic, tschort scores close to 50%.
As for your theories on belarussians and balts I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

[Antimage]

You seem to be very lax in your use of terms. The so called DNA Land's North Slavic component peaks in lithuanians and latvians so if anything that component should be called baltic and by your own logic north slavs are basterdized balts or lesser balts. The most appropriate term would probably be north-eastern european. Etain is right, slavic is a linguistic term not a genetic one. Slavs from Southern Europe are mix of north-easterns and balkanites (if that's an appropriate term) hence their genetic make up.
Seya is, by her own admission, part greek .. or at least that's what she had written in her profile a while a ago. That doesn't mean she's not romanian. There are 2 other romanians who took the test - myself and tschort. I score 55% of that "glorious" north slavic, tschort scores close to 50%.
As for your theories on belarussians and balts I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Tschort is not even romanian by ancestry/genetics and you are moldovan so you are slav admixed relative to romanians from Romania.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Tschort is not even romanian by ancestry/genetics and you are moldovan so you are slav admixed relative to romanians from Romania.
Yes, I'm from the republic but I'm a native with no slavic ancestry at least in the last couple of hundred years which is exactly the period of slavic colonization of eastern Moldova (otherwise there would've been at least one slavic surname). Sure there might be admixture older than 200 years or 500 or 1000. I've read tschort's claims of being part hutsul yet genetically he's slightly less eastern than me (someone with no north slavic ancestry). His maternal side is romanian/moldovan from Vaslui and his paternal side seems about as slavic as his maternal one.

[Norka]

Definitely Bulgarians or Macedonians. Macedonians are probably about as Slavic-admixed as Romanians, or even less.

Slovenes are likely the most Slavic of South Slavs, considering that they can score 40-50% "North Slavic" in DNA Land.

I saw one Bulgarian result and he scored 25% "North Slavic" in DNA Land. Seya (Romanian) scores 17% "North Slavic".

Please note that Proto-Slavs most likely did not score 100% "North Slavic". But we don't have Proto-Slavic aDNA.

West Slavs also have Celtic admixture (apart from Germanic).

==============================================

Northern Belarusians may actually be more Baltic than Slavic. But Balts are genetically very similar to Slavs anyway.



These are actually the most genetically Slavic of South Slavs. The least Slavic are Bulgarians or Macedonians.

DNAland is terrible. North Slavic includes Mordvins who are a Finnic group. I score 85% North Slavic however on Gedmatch my mixture tends to be 25% Slav. DNAland is not accurate to prove anything.

[Zmey Gorynych]

DNAland is terrible. North Slavic includes Mordvins who are a Finnic group. I score 85% North Slavic however on Gedmatch my mixture tends to be 25% Slav. DNAland is not accurate to prove anything.
You're right DNA Land is crap which inflates scores (similar to 23&me in that respect).

[Deniz]

I scored %25 North Slavic in Dnaland.I saw Macedonian and Bulgarians,They scored %20 or %17.I think same with Norka.

[War Chef]

Montenegrins of course.

[Kriptc06]

Macedonians Imo

[Voskos]

either slavomacedonians or montenegrins

[Peterski]

About the ethnogenesis of South Slavs I wrote something here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?130235-Slavery-Reparations&p=4268278&viewfull=1#post4268278


If we believe Max Vasmer, the association between Slavs and slaves originated during the Slavic invasion of the Balkans in the 6th century AD, when invading North Slavs enslaved a lot of native Balkanians, and Slavicized them - leading to the ethnogenesis of South Slavs. Balkan Slavs are largely descended from those subjects of the Byzantine Empire who were enslaved and Slavicized by Slavs (Emperor Maurice in his "Strategikon" wrote that Slavs did not keep slaves in perpetual slavery, but incorporated them into their own egalitarian societies).

According to Max Vasmer, the term "sclavos" meaning "slave" rather than "ethnic Slav", was for the first time used by Agathias of Myrina already in the 6th century AD.

Let's see what Byzantine authors wrote about that:

Emperor Maurice, "Strategikon", 11, 4:

"The Sclavenes and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs. They are both independent, absolutely refusing to be enslaved or ruled by foreigners, least of all in their own land. They are populous and hardy, bearing readily heat, cold, rain, nakedness, and scarcity of provisions. They are kind and hospitable to travellers in their country and conduct them safely from one place to another, wherever they wish. (...) They [Slavs], unlike other peoples, do not keep those who are in captivity among them in perpetual slavery, but they set a definite period of time for them, after which they give them the choice: either, when they so desire, to return to their own homes if they purchase their freedom, or to stay among them as free people and friends."

So Slavs were increasing their numbers by incorporating captured slaves into their ranks, and assimilating them. Let's see what Byzantine authors wrote about Slavic slave raids:

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", VII, 13, 24:

"For a great throng of barbarians, the Slavs, had, as it happened, recently crossed the river Danube, plundered the adjoining country, and enslaved a very great number of Romans."

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", III, 3, 9-19:

"The Slavs took the city [of Toperus] in the following manner. Most of them hid themselves in hilly country opposite the walls, and a few of them, going up before the eastern gates, annoyed the Romans on the parapets. The soldiers who were on guard there, thinking that they (Slavs) were no more numerous than those whom they saw, all immediately taking up their weapons, went out against them. The barbarians retreated, giving the appearance to their pursuers that they retreated out of fear. Those in ambush came out now, behind the pursuers, no longer allowing them entry into the city. Those who appeared to be fleeing now turned about and placed the Romans in a position of double attack. Having slain all of them, the barbarians attacked the wall. The inhabitants of the city, deprived of the soldiers, were at a great loss and defended themselves against the attackers with those that remained. First, heating oil and pitch, they poured it on the besiegers and, all of them hurling stones against them, came close to repulsing the danger. But then the barbarians, having driven them back from the parapets by a multitude of arrows and having placed ladders against the wall, took the city by storm. They slew all 15,000 men, plundered all the wealth, and enslaved all the women and children."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 18, 20-21:

"Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Slavs, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these invasions, I estimate, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 23, 6:

"The Slavs ravaged all of Europe; captured cities were either razed to their foundations, or made to pay terrible tribute; men were carried off into slavery together with all their property, and every district was deserted by its inhabitants because of the daily raids: yet no tax was remitted, except in the case of cities that had been captured by the enemy, and then only for one year."

John of Ephesus "Historia Ecclesiastica", 6, 25:

"That same year, being the third after the death of emperor Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavs, who overran the whole of Greece, and the lands of Thessaly, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 584 AD, they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."

Menander Protector, fragments 47 and 48:

"About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces to contain them, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars [to ask him for help against the Slavs]."

Archaeology also confirms those written accounts quoted above:

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

"There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows."

Among few Greek cities which resisted enslavement by Slavs, was Thessaloniki:

http://groznijat.tripod.com/slav/vryonis.html

"The strongest hybridisation processes involved the South Slavs":

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

http://s4.postimg.org/i64k6ay25/Slavs.png

The list of primary sources which describe how Early Slavs looked like:

6th century AD:

- Procopius of Caesarea
- Theophylact Simocatta
- Theophanes the Confessor
- Emperor Maurice ("Strategikon")
- Pseudo-Caesarius of Nazianzus

7th century AD:

- Al-Ahtal
- Ibn Qutaybah

8th century AD:

- Ibn Al-Kalbi

9th century AD:

- Al-Baladhuri
- Al-Ğāhiz

10th century AD:

- Abraham ben Jacob
- Constantine Porphyrogennetos
- Al-Masudi
- Ibn al-Faqih
- Yaqut al-Hamawi*

*He lived in the 13th century but was quoting 10th century sources.

================

Carleton Stevens Coon, "The Races of Europe", page 220:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=BqC7t1SNAhMC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=Coon+Slavs,+like+all+other+Indo-Europeans+originally+Nordic&source=bl&ots=lBOz4ijOS3&sig=VkJhgpi7pA7hTMwaMLzm1gl6Iac&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHvqSKtrnKAhUFXiwKHWORCH8Q6AEIIjAA#v=on epage&q=Coon%20Slavs%2C%20like%20all%20other%20Indo-Europeans%20originally%20Nordic&f=false

"(...) On the whole, the Slavic racial type, as exemplified by skeletal series from Poland, Germany, Bohemia, Austria, and Russia, was reasonably uniform ... The Slavs, like all the other Indo-European-speaking peoples whom we have been able to trace, were originally Nordic. (...)"

Anthropological studies of Early Slavs:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8051-Anthropological-studies-of-Early-Slavs&p=174129&viewfull=1#post174129

Ilse Schwidetzky, "Rassenkunde der Altslawen":

https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ilse-schwidetzky-rassenkunde-der-altslawen.pdf

Nordic (n), Easteuropid (o), Alpinid or Lappid (a), Dinaric (d), Mediterranid (m):

https://s7.postimg.org/uql8nmaob/antropologia_S_owian.png

[RN97]

Yes, I'm from the republic but I'm a native with no slavic ancestry at least in the last couple of hundred years which is exactly the period of slavic colonization of eastern Moldova (otherwise there would've been at least one slavic surname). Sure there might be admixture older than 200 years or 500 or 1000. I've read tschort's claims of being part hutsul yet genetically he's slightly less eastern than me (someone with no north slavic ancestry). His maternal side is romanian/moldovan from Vaslui and his paternal side seems about as slavic as his maternal one.

Moldovans are a entirely different thing compared to other Romanians Eurogenes K8 gives Romanians (presumably most are from the south somewhere) like 33% WHG and 13% ANE. Moldovans are 16% ANE and 40% WHG. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
We know then that Moldovans are more "EHG"-like. Only by looking at them you can tell. BTW this doesn't need to be the Moldovans from Moldova, it can be Romanians from Maramures where they border with slavic Ukranians. The mixture of Moldovans and Slavs might be very old, you might not know of any slavs mixing in with your family in the last 100 years, but it might be much older than that you can tell just by looking at them IMO. A lot of them look like a mix of Ukrainians and south Romanians.

[RN97]

To answer the OP question, I'd say Macedonians and Bulgarians. They're probably genetically further from the original slavs compared to even the average Romanian.

[Profileid]

Actually Slavic-speaking groups are more closely related to each other than Germanic-speaking groups.

So if you think that for example Germanic is a genetic term (do you?) then Slavic is a genetic term too.

NEITHER SLAV OR GERMANIC ARE GENETIC TERMS.

END OF STORY

[RN97]

NEITHER SLAV OR GERMANIC ARE GENETIC TERMS.

END OF STORY

Sure fgt, but the original tribes that spoke those languages were genetically something and that something is what being genetically Slavic/ Germanic means.

[Not a Cop]

Moldovans are a entirely different thing compared to other Romanians Eurogenes K8 gives Romanians (presumably most are from the south somewhere) like 33% WHG and 13% ANE. Moldovans are 16% ANE and 40% WHG. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
We know then that Moldovans are more "EHG"-like. Only by looking at them you can tell. BTW this doesn't need to be the Moldovans from Moldova, it can be Romanians from Maramures where they border with slavic Ukranians. The mixture of Moldovans and Slavs might be very old, you might not know of any slavs mixing in with your family in the last 100 years, but it might be much older than that you can tell just by looking at them IMO. A lot of them look like a mix of Ukrainians and south Romanians.



That's because moldavian sample is fucked up:
Population ID ANE South_Eurasian Near_Eastern East_Eurasian WHG
Moldavian moldavian_V02612 0.138436 0.01478 0.431613 0.004206 0.391307
Moldavian moldavian_V13693 0.1729 0.001728 0.358749 0.007933 0.441898 - Obvious East-Slav, rather Ukrainian.
Moldavian moldavian_V28645 0.183448 0.024508 0.369633 0.010346 0.386809 - Could be a mixed person or something, too high ANE and rather high WHG
Moldavian moldavian_V44175 0.182211 0.0125 0.316792 0.011555 0.467366 - Obvious East-Slav, rather Russian
Moldavian moldavian_V46055 0.167283 0.016704 0.41326 0.001567 0.398462
Moldavian moldavian_V48759 0.14289 0.025335 0.443036 0.004997 0.374307
Moldavian moldavian_V49937 0.130967 0.015661 0.497581 0.007296 0.342581 - Seems to be an outlier, could be a more southern Romanian or something.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=1681484272

As you can see only 3 guys have results that kinda make sense, considering their ancestry, so always check your facts.

[Peterski]

Greeks imo

Comments from Eurogenes blog about Slavic admixture in modern Southern Greece:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

Interesting read, "The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries":

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

It is possible that Slavs had a higher immunity to plague than Non-Slavic populations.

[Stanislav]

Genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs is populations with maximum East_Central_Euro by K-36.

[Swarthy_Syndicate]

“Slav” is merely a linguistic identity. It’s not like “Arab” where it’s also cultural because Arabic is one language with regional dialects whereas Slavic languages are entirely different languages that happen to share a common root. Culturally there is an Eastern European identity yes, but Slavic no.

[викторслава]

why are poles on the list? it is probably bulgarians as they have alot of E dna from what i have seen

[ChocolateFace]

Bulgarians, Macedonians or Montenegrins.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

What he said ^

[RogueState]

“Slav” is merely a linguistic identity. It’s not like “Arab” where it’s also cultural because Arabic is one language with regional dialects whereas Slavic languages are entirely different languages that happen to share a common root. Culturally there is an Eastern European identity yes, but Slavic no.

There is no Slavic civilization or even culture, it is indeed just a linguistic group

[Peterski]

Probably Macedonians.

[Kaspias]

Torbesh. Followed by Macedonians.

[Abriekman]

why are poles on the list? it is probably bulgarians as they have alot of E dna from what i have seen

Because some Poles in western part of Poland have about half of their genetic being Celto-Germanic.

[rero]

Because some Poles in western part of Poland have about half of their genetic being Celto-Germanic.

There was recently a genetic makeup study posted here for all Polish regions. Not one region had half Celto-Germanic results or anything close to it. If it applies to just very few individuals, it's not interesting for the question.

[Blondie]

There was recently a genetic makeup study posted here for all Polish regions. Not one region had half Celto-Germanic results or anything close to it. If it applies to just very few individuals, it's not interesting for the question.

In fact many western polish area was repleaced by the very slavic eastern poles after the fall of Prussia.

[Asten]

The ones from Balkan.Because some have brown skin and slavic peoples is associated with light skin and light eyes

[Jana]

The ones from Balkan.Because some have brown skin and slavic peoples is associated with light skin and light eyes

Phenotype lottery. Some south Slavs are swarthy due to ending up looking closer to pre-Slavic population they mixed with while you have Slavs to thank for Baltoid phenotype, it certanly isn't from Albanians xD

I'm joking though. South Slavs are quite better looking that north Slavs, Slavo-Med combination is estetically quite superior to pure northern features which are pretty unremarkable.

[Crn Volk]

Czechs

[Jana]

As for thread, least Slavic overall are Torbesh (Macedonian muslims who seem to have heavy Albanian admix). From regional Slav groups Pinega Russians are one of least genetically Slavic speakers, they are mostly Slavicized Karelians.

[Jana]

Czechs

Czechs are more than half Slavic on average, their Germaness is exeggerated although they have significant western Euro admix.

[Asten]

Phenotype lottery. Some south Slavs are swarthy due to ending up looking closer to pre-Slavic population they mixed with while you have Slavs to thank for Baltoid phenotype, it certanly isn't from Albanians xD

I'm joking though. South Slavs are quite better looking that north Slavs, Slavo-Med combination is estetically quite superior to pure northern features which are pretty unremarkable.

You can think whatever you want. I'm still Albanian and not Slavic. i have come to this forum for learning something new and not for fighting with some stranger.
By your point of view if baltic Albanian are Slavic then dinarid Serbo-Croat have Gheg blood

[Jana]

Most Germanic admixed Poles are in now central parts like Greater Poland (real western Poland before border change with original population) and north on Baltic coast (Kashubians). But all of them are still heavily and pred. Slavic genetically.

[Jana]

You can think whatever you want. I'm still Albanian and not Slavic. i have come to this forum for learning something new and not for fighting with some stranger.
By your point of view if baltic Albanian are Slavic then dinarid Serbo-Croat have Gheg blood

Baltic phenotype is ofcourse Slavic and alien to pre-Slavic Albanians. You aren't more Slavic than other Albos, probably in range you just inherited Slavic features while you can have swarthy east Med sibling. I just laughed at your comments since darkness of south Slavs comes from mixing with people related with Albanians.

[Asten]

Baltic phenotype is ofcourse Slavic and alien to pre-Slavic Albanians. You aren't more Slavic than other Albos, probably in range you just inherited Slavic features while you can have swarthy east Med sibling. I just laughed at your comments since darkness of south Slavs comes from mixing with people related with Albanians.

Majority of Baltic pheno can be found around baltic states who are not slavic.

[Peterski]

Most Germanic admixed Poles are in now central parts like Greater Poland (real western Poland before border change with original population) and north on Baltic coast (Kashubians). But all of them are still heavily and pred. Slavic genetically.

My father's aunt (but not related to him by blood - she married into the family) was an autochthonous Pole from Kalsko (Kalzig):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalsko

This is almost at the westernmost end of the ethnic Polish area according to 1910 census, I wonder what her results would be:

Green = Polish majority
Orange = German majority

Kalzig (Kalsko) was mixed, slightly >50% German but with very numerous Poles (according to 1910 census):

https://i.imgur.com/6Xly5Cv.png

[Jana]

Majority of Baltic pheno can be found around baltic states who are not slavic.

Balto-Slavs are come from same root just like Celto-Germanics and Balts are even more alien to Albanians than Slavs are. Sorry, your Baltid admix came from Slavic invaders during dark ages, sorry if that hurts your feelings.

[Asten]

Balto-Slavs are come from same root just like Celto-Germanics and Balts are even more alien to Albanians than Slavs are. Sorry, your Baltid admix came from Slavic invaders during dark ages, sorry if that hurts your feelings.

There is no point to talk with you, you seems toxic

[Peterski]

Then we have cases like Kramkowski from East Prussia who discovered he is Polish:

(and AFAIK he has recently returned to live in his native Olsztyn/Allenstein, Poland)

https://i.imgur.com/Gdd4pFY.png

^^^
His Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 40.18
2 North_Atlantic 32.23
3 West_Med 13.81
4 East_Med 6.33
5 West_Asian 3.2
6 Red_Sea 1.48
7 Siberian 1.41
8 Oceanian 0.77
9 Northeast_African 0.6

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Polish 4.7
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.13
3 Ukrainian 6.15
4 Polish 6.78
5 Croatian 7.71
6 East_German 9.03
(...)

Many "Germans" don't know they are Polish or part Polish until they do a DNA test.

[Jana]

There is no point to talk with you, you seems toxic

Thanks, good lesson for you to talke a peddal from Slavic threads.

[Satem]

Majority of Baltic pheno can be found around baltic states who are not slavic.


One the one side I agree with your post, but there are extraordinary cases in each ethnicity. Even here on forum there are atypical looking members for their ethnicity ending with typical genetic results. Looks can be deceptive, if you wanna be sure about your ancestry, DNA test is one of the best solutions

[Peterski]

Another example similar to Kramkowski, is Teutonski from our forum.


central parts like Greater Poland

I don't think it is "central". The whole region is located in the western half of Poland.

There is Lubusz Voivodeship to the west, but this region is "thin" from west-to-east:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubusz_Voivodeship

Central Poland is rather Lodz Voivodeship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81%C3%B3d%C5%BA_Voivodeship

[rero]

Many "Germans" don't know they are Polish or part Polish until they do a DNA test.

If you add "East" before Germans and replace Polish with Slavic, I kind of agree with you. There are not so many Slavic influenced people in Western Germany (I suspect even the Poles that came to Ruhrgebiet are today Germanic-admixed). Most people in Western Germany have nothing to with Slavs though.

[Jaromir]

I would say Poles

[Asten]

If you add "East" before Germans and replace Polish with Slavic, I kind of agree with you. There are not so many Slavic influenced people in Western Germany (I suspect even the Poles that came to Ruhrgebiet are today Germanic-admixed). Most people in Western Germany have nothing to with Slavs though.
Yeah i will try it.Thanks for the tips.

[Peterski]

If you add "East" before Germans and replace Polish with Slavic, I kind of agree with you. There are not so many Slavic influenced people in Western Germany (I suspect even the Poles that came to Ruhrgebiet are today Germanic-admixed). Most people in Western Germany have nothing to with Slavs though.

Yes, Slavic too. But many also have actual Polish Germanized ancestry.

That is the case of Kramkowski from Ermland, a region which had largely ethnically Polish population - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmia

For example here is the ethnic data for Kreis Allenstein for 1820s-30s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia#Historical_ethnic_and_religious_struc ture

"(...) Catholic Poles - so called Warmiaks (not to be confused with predominantly Protestant Masurians) - comprised the majority of population, numbering 26,067 people (~81%) in county Allenstein (Polish: Olsztyn) in 1837.[10] (...)"

https://i.imgur.com/r7tpiZL.png

And here ethnic data for towns/villages of Southern Ermland in 1910:

https://docplayer.org/25809174-Sprachverhaeltnisse-im-polnischen-ermland-um-1910-nach-der-karte-von-leo-wittschell.html

https://i.imgur.com/51CpVQ9.png


https://i.imgur.com/Zrxvth5.png


https://i.imgur.com/NsGE1pz.png


https://i.imgur.com/42F2QyP.png


https://i.imgur.com/9FNNNbn.png


https://i.imgur.com/ln0n7f2.png

[rero]

Yes, Slavic too. But many also have actual Polish Germanized ancestry.

That is the case of Kramkowski from Ermland, a region which had largely ethnically Polish population...


I see that you often post individual cases and I never know what to make of it because I don't know how well they represent the situation overall. For example, how do you know how many of those Poles that were in Warmia today live in Germany as "Germans"? Many maybe never left Poland? I mean only Germans had to leave after WW2.

[Peterski]

For example, how do you know how many of those Poles that were in Warmia today live in Germany as "Germans"? Many maybe never left Poland? I mean only Germans had to leave after WW2.

Lots of them left already during the evacuation of East Prussia:
(which was when the Red Army was attacking since late 1944)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_East_Prussia

Most of the civilians were evacuated - regardless of ethnicity.

[Aspirin]

Macedonians and Bulgarians

[rero]

Lots of them left already during the evacuation of East Prussia:
(which was when the Red Army was attacking since late 1944)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_East_Prussia

Most of the civilians were evacuated - regardless of ethnicity.

Ok but the problem is that there is no data where those people really end up living. I believe that you are right that some may today live in Germany not knowing about their roots but I would not assume that it's a huge number. East Prussia wasn't densely populated anyway and only part of people of polish background may have ended up in Germany(and of those not everyone necessarily forgot about their roots).

[Peterski]

Ok but the problem is that there is no data where those people really end up living. I believe that you are right that some may today live in Germany not knowing about their roots but I would not assume that it's a huge number. East Prussia wasn't densely populated anyway and only part of people of polish background may have ended up in Germany(and of those not everyone necessarily forgot about their roots).

Well, all Germans east of the Oder-Neisse have admixture from Polish Slavic tribes, which were part of the Early Medieval Polish Kingdom.

See, here are the borders of the Polish Kingdom under the Piast Dynasty in 1138 and 1250 (the 2nd one after the loss of West Pomerania):

https://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/9928.html - article in English

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/53298/WA51_72321_r2015-t88-no1_G-Polonica-Eberhardt.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/KdZhDYH.png

https://i.imgur.com/SGmdkmh.png

https://i.imgur.com/PctaNpg.png

On the other hand, Germans from the Elbe-Oder area have indeed ancestry from Slavic tribes like Polabians and Sorbs, not "Poles proper".

[Peterski]

(...)

Check this book for example (in German), about the origins of German Silesians:

Karl Weinhold, "Die Verbreitung und die Herkunft der Deutschen in Schlesien" (1887):

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_CqpCAAAAIAAJ

Very interesting, for example he mentions surnames of original Polish Lower Silesians:

https://i.imgur.com/KT8GiUE.jpg

More fragments:

https://i.imgur.com/RAabwco.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HCVyCO7.jpg

[Jaromir]

that dna autosomal is a big hoax, majority of people use portuguese language in Brazil (and in Africa) but they aren't called Portuguese, majority of people speaking "Slavic" language in Russia etc. ... what if the real Slavs are Bulgarians... and Bosnians?

[rero]

Well, all Germans east of the Oder-Neisse have admixture from Polish Slavic tribes, which were part of the Early Medieval Polish Kingdom.

See, here are the borders of the Polish Kingdom under the Piast Dynasty in 1138 and 1250 (the 2nd one after the loss of West Pomerania):

On the other hand, Germans from the Elbe-Oder area have indeed ancestry from Slavic tribes like Polabians and Sorbs, not "Poles proper".

Yes. I believe it's an interesting but also complex topic because big parts of Germany was Slavic territory and big parts of Poland was Germanic territory in the past so some mixing over time was ineveitable. However, if we look at genetics today as much as we can tell from the data that exists, that mixing was not huge and both populations are not very close when viewing whole populations. Western Germany shows no significant Slavic shift while East Germany is Slavic shifted in comparison but still not very close to the Polish average.

[Peterski]

Yes. I believe it's an interesting but also complex topic because big parts of Germany was Slavic territory and big parts of Poland was Germanic territory in the past so some mixing over time was ineveitable. However, if we look at genetics today as much as we can tell from the data that exists, that mixing was not huge and both populations are not very close when viewing whole populations. Western Germany shows no significant Slavic shift while East Germany is Slavic shifted in comparison but still not very close to the Polish average.

We also already have Early Medieval Germanic and Early Medieval Slavic samples for comparison.

I uploaded to DNA Land the sample KRA001 from Krakauer Berg (Slavic town in Sachsen-Anhalt):

https://www.pz-news.de/weltweit_artikel,-Mittelalterliche-Fernfahrer-Raststaette-ausgegraben-_arid,519899.html

^^^ About Krakauer Berg settlement (near present-day Bernburg): "Das Dorf sei im 9. Jahrhundert entstanden - in einer slawischen Gegend. Die Siedlung mit etwa 200 Menschen existierte rund 400 Jahre lang und wurde im 14. Jahrhundert aufgegeben."

https://dna.land/

Sample KRA001 got 80% "North Slavic" in DNA Land:

https://i.imgur.com/jk5v6gz.png

[NSXD60]

Answer: The country that bore the least baby Genghises.

[Peterski]

My father's aunt (but not related to him by blood - she married into the family) was an autochthonous Pole from Kalsko (Kalzig):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalsko

This is almost at the westernmost end of the ethnic Polish area according to 1910 census, I wonder what her results would be:

Green = Polish majority
Orange = German majority

Kalzig (Kalsko) was mixed, slightly >50% German but with very numerous Poles (according to 1910 census):

https://i.imgur.com/6Xly5Cv.png

Kalsko and Stołuń were to the west of the pre-war Polish border (red line):

https://i.imgur.com/No5ABef.png

https://i.imgur.com/O30dYAl.png

[Chocolate_Hound]

There is no Slavic civilization or even culture, it is indeed just a linguistic group

I agree. Poles and Russians are nothing alike other than in the language family.

[Jana]

I agree. Poles and Russians are nothing alike other than in the language family.

This is very innacurate. There is genetic continuity between Poland and Russia, this is core of Slavic genetics.

[HoboJim]

Probably the Macedonians.

Poles are about as pureblood Slav as they come. Moreso than other slavic peoples I would bet.

[HoboJim]

I would actually be surprised to see a fully Polish person with a drop of any non-Slavic admixture.

[Dušan]

Slovenes are likely the most Slavic of South Slavs


No, they are in the same percentage proto-Slavic as Serbs, only they have additional Celtic-Germanic component, and smaller percentage paleo-Balkan.

[Jana]

No, they are in the same percentage proto-Slavic as Serbs, only they have additional Celtic-Germanic component, and smaller percentage paleo-Balkan.

Not. Slovenians are more Slavic than Serbs. Modeling with Ukrainians and deep south Italians is incorrect. Early Slavs were between Lithuanians and Belarusians, not like Ukrainians.
Neither Serbs have much Paleo Balkan at all according to old outdated models some of you use (and of course they should have plenty)

Thraco-Illyrians were not like Greek Islanders or deep south Italians genetically, even with Romanization.

[Mejgusu]

Thraco-Illyrians were not like Greek Islanders or south Italians genetically, even with Romanization.

How did they look like, honestly never saw a result? Honestly I was thinking they were very southern like Greek islanders too?

[Jana]

Here are more realistic models for Serbs/Slovenians with modern proxies (and yes, I won't artifically reduce the fit by overfitting)

Target: Serb
Distance: 2.6352% / 2.63517890

51.4 Belarusian_Minsk
48.6 Italian_Abruzzo

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 2.6332% / 2.63320865

56.8 Belarusian_Minsk
43.2 Italian_Veneto

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.9240% / 1.92395683

42.3 Belarusian_Minsk
32.5 Italian_Marche
25.2 Italian_Molise

[Jana]

How did they look like, honestly never saw a result? Honestly I was thinking they were very southern like Greek islanders too?

Illyrians (in Croatia at least) were north Italian like, Thracians (in Bulgaria) more central-south Italian like. Than they got woggified by East Med input in Roman times. But it could not pull them that much south.
Btw, ethnogenesis of Serbs according to them happened in Illyrian territory which is on level of central Italy, so modeling their pre-Slavic part with something very southern only to increase Slavic percentage is incorrect.

New paper on Balkan DNA modeled Serbs and southern Croats as just simply Slavic + Iron Age Balkan, and said Roman genetics did not leave much impact.
Croat samples from Dalmatia were little over half Slavic, Serb samples from Belgrade were little below half Slavic.

[reboun]

Here are more realistic models for Serbs/Slovenians with modern proxies (and yes, I won't artifically reduce the fit by overfitting)

Target: Serb
Distance: 2.6352% / 2.63517890

51.4 Belarusian_Minsk
48.6 Italian_Abruzzo

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 2.6332% / 2.63320865

56.8 Belarusian_Minsk
43.2 Italian_Veneto

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.9240% / 1.92395683

42.3 Belarusian_Minsk
32.5 Italian_Marche
25.2 Italian_Molise

I didn’t know that Italians are that southern shifted for their location. May I use this data to use in a thread?

[Jana]

I didn’t know that Italians are that southern shifted for their location. May I use this data to use in a thread?

Italians are not southern shifted for their location, what are you talking about? And no, I don't want this to be used because I have much better ancient models.

[Jana]

The problem with Dinaric I2a1b1 is it's supposed to be a very new haplogroup but it's found in Cardium Pottery culture in Spain and in a neolithic German.

Of course it was not found there, that are completely unrelated clades. I don't want to hear more stupidity about this haplo spread around, it's 2021 ffs, learn that it's Slavic already.

[reboun]

Of course it was not. I don't want to hear more stupidity about this haplo spread around, it's 2021 ffs, learn that it's Slavic already.

Okay, I won’t use them. The reason for me to think Italians are southern shifted for their location is, their country is located between Iberian peninsula and Balkans while Italians are southern shifted than both Iberians and Balkan Slavs.

[Jana]

Okay, I won’t use them. The reason for me to think Italians are southern shifted for their location is, their country is located between Iberian peninsula and Balkans while Italians are southern shifted than both Iberians and Balkan Slavs.

Balkan Slavs are heavily Slavic dumbass. We are northern shifted for our location because we came there in medieval. Of course Slavic genetics is alien to southern Europe.

[Jana]

with ancient samples on G25, where I only used pure examples (heavily northeastern individual Krakauer Berg + AV2 for Slavs etc)

No need to model with Romans at all just like upcoming paper states. These are more realistic percentages (keep in mind those are academic averages from capital cities, so mish mash of lot of stuff
-Slovene average includes some other south slav admixed people, Belgrade average includes people with roots from Montenegro etc)

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 0.6909% / 0.00690864

59.6 (Balto-)Slavic
35.8 Balkan
4.6 Celto-Germanic

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.2317% / 0.01231690

50.8 Balkan
49.2 (Balto-)Slavic

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.1779% / 0.01177904

53.0 Balkan
47.0 (Balto-)Slavic

[reboun]

Balkan Slavs are heavily Slavic dumbass. We are northern shifted for our location because we came there in medieval. Of course Slavic genetics is alien to southern Europe.

Was such an insult mandatory?

[vbnetkhio]

If talking only about entire ethnicities, then Macedonians.

If also including the regional level, then the far northern Russians. For example, Pskov Russians are identical to Latvians, and Archangelsk Russians are like Finns with a bit more Siberian shift.

[Varda]

Italians are not southern shifted for their location, what are you talking about? And no, I don't want this to be used because I have much better ancient models.
Yes, they are. Even Italians from Marche which is closer to Alps than to Calabria or Sicily have East Med as the strongest component. Calabria/Sicily are on the same latitude as Andalucia, and Andalucians are quite more northern shifted than Calabrians and Sicilians.


Balkan Slavs are heavily Slavic dumbass. We are northern shifted for our location because we came there in medieval. Of course Slavic genetics is alien to southern Europe.
:picard1:

[Dušan]

Here are more realistic models for Serbs/Slovenians with modern proxies (and yes, I won't artifically reduce the fit by overfitting)

Target: Serb
Distance: 2.6352% / 2.63517890

51.4 Belarusian_Minsk
48.6 Italian_Abruzzo

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 2.6332% / 2.63320865

56.8 Belarusian_Minsk
43.2 Italian_Veneto

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.9240% / 1.92395683

42.3 Belarusian_Minsk
32.5 Italian_Marche
25.2 Italian_Molise



Btw, ethnogenesis of Serbs according to them happened in Illyrian territory which is on level of central Italy, so modeling their pre-Slavic part with something very southern only to increase Slavic percentage is incorrect.





:o

Even Italian Abbruzo average you mentioned is very close to Southern Italian, and to Greek islanders.

https://i.imgur.com/KO8ZeqJ.png


We could be modeled as Northern Slavs and Southern Italians. Deal with it.

https://i.imgur.com/n0BcQdp.png

[Mortimer]

Macedonia and Bulgaria

[Jana]

Yes, they are. Even Italians from Marche which is closer to Alps than to Calabria or Sicily have East Med as the strongest component. Calabria/Sicily are on the same latitude as Andalucia, and Andalucians are quite more northern shifted than Calabrians and Sicilians.

No. Andalusians descend from northern Spaniards settled after reconquista.

[Jana]

:o

Even Italian Abbruzo average you mentioned is very close to Southern Italian, and to Greek islanders.

It's not a deep south Italian and that was just a modern model which is irrelevant. I posted G25 models above with actual ancient samples.


We could be modeled as Northern Slavs and Southern Italians. Deal with it.

Irrelevant, neither are north Slavs pure Slavs and neither were Paleo Balkanites like south Italians.
And btw, ancient samples like Sunghir aren't pure either.

[Varda]

No. Andalusians descend from northern Spaniards settled after reconquista.

Andalucians are not genetic twins of northern Spanians, they more southern shifted than northerners.

You can compare every region of Italy and Iberia which are on the same latitude, and Iberians are always more northern shifted.

[Jana]

Pure Slavs were like this:

(Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.08 1458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0 .004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001,0.129758,0.125 926,0.075424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0 .010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009,0.126344,0.127 957,0.067127,0.070737,0.042162,0.02008,0.011281,0. 014999,-0.001023,-0.032802,-0.001949,-0.01124,0.017542,0.01968,-0.012893,0.007558,0.011604,0.00114,0.005782,0.0115 06,-0.010357,0.003091,0.007765,-0.008796,-0.001676
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011,0.125205,0.129 988,0.078818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0 .006692,0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
(Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0 .078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.00429 5,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
(Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0 .081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.0106 35,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275

this is how they score on G25:

Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
0.02177898 Belarusian
0.02424324 Russian_Smolensk
0.02738113 Lithuanian_PA
0.02942821 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02946380 Russian_Voronez
0.02991857 Lithuanian_VA
0.03109674 Russian_Pskov
0.03132255 Polish
0.03168777 Polish_Kashubian
0.03227394 Ukrainian
0.03237800 Lithuanian_RA
0.03264673 Russian_Kaluga
0.03270447 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03272948 Russian_Orel
0.03371607 Russian_Kursk
0.03467135 Russian_Belgorod
0.03512026 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03537807 Estonian
0.03608033 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03658083 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03819133 Russian_Ryazan
0.03840680 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03893276 Latvian
0.03998910 Russian_Tver
0.04858666 Slovakian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH28
0.03697758 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03838355 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04026342 Belarusian
0.04048938 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04129101 Lithuanian_VA
0.04220974 Lithuanian_RA
0.04285783 Russian_Smolensk
0.04314206 Lithuanian_PA
0.04364380 Russian_Pskov
0.04365806 Latvian
0.04497713 Estonian
0.04635229 Russian_Kaluga
0.04739289 Polish_Kashubian
0.04856789 Russian_Voronez
0.05091211 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05175280 Russian_Kursk
0.05201166 Polish
0.05207170 Russian_Belgorod
0.05212985 Russian_Orel
0.05349331 Ukrainian
0.05539713 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05598137 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.05742021 Russian_Tver
0.05757977 Russian_Ryazan
0.06922380 Czech


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13
0.02959238 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03078994 Lithuanian_VA
0.03210870 Lithuanian_RA
0.03262025 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03324002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03340955 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03424146 Belarusian
0.03594568 Russian_Pskov
0.03619425 Latvian
0.03635970 Russian_Smolensk
0.04173181 Russian_Kaluga
0.04233442 Russian_Voronez
0.04401853 Estonian
0.04413051 Russian_Orel
0.04484457 Polish_Kashubian
0.04543079 Ukrainian
0.04610116 Russian_Kursk
0.04629550 Polish
0.04641076 Russian_Belgorod
0.04758354 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04843990 Russian_Tver
0.04908628 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04979615 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05057829 Russian_Ryazan
0.06289456 Slovakian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
0.02619433 Lithuanian_PA
0.02623942 Lithuanian_VA
0.02750444 Ukrainian
0.02756525 Russian_Kursk
0.02800635 Russian_Pskov
0.02883002 Russian_Voronez
0.02925384 Belarusian
0.02942825 Russian_Belgorod
0.02993988 Russian_Smolensk
0.03057635 Polish
0.03094735 Russian_Orel
0.03102981 Lithuanian_RA
0.03170694 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03223267 Russian_Kaluga
0.03270898 Russian_Ryazan
0.03372124 Russian_Tver
0.03522329 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03721137 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03731399 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03745611 Moldovan_o
0.03759956 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03787654 Slovakian
0.03943067 Estonian
0.04062850 Latvian
0.04344051 Lithuanian_PZ


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
0.02972696 Lithuanian_PA
0.02995308 Lithuanian_VA
0.03089853 Russian_Pskov
0.03220180 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03277527 Ukrainian
0.03309396 Russian_Kursk
0.03317714 Polish
0.03436156 Russian_Voronez
0.03460398 Belarusian
0.03461603 Russian_Smolensk
0.03491057 Russian_Kaluga
0.03507617 Lithuanian_RA
0.03546241 Russian_Belgorod
0.03548980 Slovakian
0.03642165 Russian_Tver
0.03702802 Russian_Ryazan
0.03733954 Estonian
0.03738154 Russian_Orel
0.03855024 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03901147 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03936651 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04065706 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04067358 Cossack_Kuban
0.04210816 Moldovan_o
0.04229780 Latvian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2
0.02285860 Belarusian
0.02419895 Lithuanian_PA
0.02505394 Russian_Smolensk
0.02541556 Russian_Voronez
0.02674336 Ukrainian
0.02703831 Polish
0.02739533 Russian_Kursk
0.02773445 Russian_Orel
0.02828713 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02839289 Lithuanian_VA
0.02896030 Russian_Belgorod
0.02963633 Russian_Pskov
0.02966434 Russian_Kaluga
0.03185186 Russian_Ryazan
0.03197114 Russian_Tver
0.03214046 Lithuanian_RA
0.03226248 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03454520 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03495364 Estonian
0.03557356 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03823359 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03827265 Polish_Kashubian
0.03925891 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03970452 Latvian
0.03997270 Slovakian

[Jana]

Andalucians are not genetic twins of northern Spanians, they more southern shifted than northerners.

They are not most southern Shifted Iberians at all if that is what you are implying.


You can compare every region of Italy and Iberia which are on the same latitude, and Iberians are always more northern shifted.

Italy got heavily woggified with Imperial Romans but later got some additional northern input from migrating Germanics.
Iberians are most northern shifted southern Europeans.

[Jana]

My results when using above mentioned ancient Slavs and Illyrians from Croatia and Hungary (I remove Thracian from source who would artificaly increase my Slavic because I have zero Thracian)

Target: Stearsolina_scaled
Distance: 2.2310% / 0.02230987

60.2 (Balto-)Slavic
39.8 Balkan

[rothaer]

I guess Macedonians or Bulgarians or Pomaks; The latter could maybe get under the proto Slav level of Macedonians if they additionally assimilated some Anatolian Turks.


If talking only about entire ethnicities, then Macedonians.

If also including the regional level, then the far northern Russians. For example, Pskov Russians are identical to Latvians, and Archangelsk Russians are like Finns with a bit more Siberian shift.

I agree.

If you have G25 coords I'd be curious about the result in the calculator in my signature. I regard that calculator good, especially also the tranparency where the single ancient source samples are visible.

Here's a pic I made some time ago for a number of ethnicities out of that mentioned calculator. Here Bulgarians do have the lowest level (38.2%) among Slavic speakers. Unfortunately Macedonians are not contained in the table.

https://i.imgur.com/ErAgu23.jpg

EDIT: It seems not to be Macedonians as they seem to have more than Bulgarians:

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.7305% / 0.00730540
46.4 (Balto-)Slavic
37.0 Graeco-Roman
16.6 Balkan

[Jana]

Serbs pre-Slavic is modeled with both Illyrians and Thracians and that should be realistic and in line with their position in Balkans.

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.2317% / 0.01231690

32.0 (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
28.0 Balkan:BGR_IA_I5769
14.4 Balkan:HRV_IA_I3313
13.4 (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
8.4 Balkan:HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ43
3.4 (Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2
0.4 (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13

with Montenegrins I removed Thracians, as they have no such blood. Slavic goes down to around 40% and fit is still exceptional.

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412840

35.0 Balkan:HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ43
24.4 (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
23.8 Balkan:HRV_IA_I3313
15.4 (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
1.4 (Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2

aggregated

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.4128% / 0.01412840

58.8 Balkan
41.2 (Balto-)Slavic

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.5453% / 0.01545250

58.2 Balkan
41.8 (Balto-)Slavic

Serb G25 average is heavily Montenenigga shifted so Bosnian and Croatian, and even many Serbian Serbs will be more Slavic than that, up to half and above half.
But old models where some ppl get like 70% "Slavic" etc look to be completely off.

This figures I get are in line with models of that unreleased Reich paper. If there were Dalmatian Croats on G25, they'd probably model little bit above 50% Slav just like in the paper.
Croatian average on G25 from Zagreb isn't of much use in this because it's filled with heavily German admixed samples.

[Jana]

I guess Macedonians. Or Pomaks; The latter could maybe get under the proto Slav level of Macedonians if they additionally assimilated some Anatolian Turks.



I agree.

If you have G25 coords I'd be curious about the result in the calculator in my signature. I regard that calculator good, especially also the tranparency where the single ancient source samples are visible.

Here's a pic I made some time ago for a number of ethnicities out of that mentioned calculator. Here Bulgarians do have the lowest level (38.2%) among Slavic speakers. Unfortunately Macedonians are not contained in the table.

https://i.imgur.com/ErAgu23.jpg

I must fix that calc. Roman samples should be removed and Sunghir6 for Slavic also, that sample does not plot like other early Slavs. He even has some Siberian and is more southern than them.

[Jana]

I realized making calculators with "one size fits all" is a failure. Slovenians require different pre-Slavic samples than Bulgarians do, so if I put both in same calc results can get skewed.
And better fit can often be misleading.

It's best to make personalized models for every ethnicity in line with their known ethnogenesis when selecting applicable samples.
For example with Thracian added in I get more Slavic than without and tighter fit, but that is obviously misleading because Thracians took no part in ethnogenesis of Croats. etc.

[Jana]

EDIT: It seems not to be Macedonians as they seem to have more than Bulgarians:

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.7305% / 0.00730540
46.4 (Balto-)Slavic
37.0 Graeco-Roman
16.6 Balkan

It's from capital Skopje and there are some samples mixed with Serbs and Bosniaks (and even Croats I heard), hence more northern. David's G25 modern averages for south Slavs are very poor and unfiltered academics. Since he has no interest in south Slavs he never bothered to fix or improve them like some others. His modern averages are shitty in general.

[Leto]

Oh boy, this fucking saga never ends :bored0:

[rothaer]

I must fix that calc. Roman samples should be removed and Sunghir6 for Slavic also, that sample does not plot like other early Slavs. He even has some Siberian and is more southern than them.

It doesn't change much if Sunghir6 is removed. But on the north Europe PCA Sunghir6 (marked) plots inconspicious among the other reference samples imo.

https://i.imgur.com/eyQISwI.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

I guess Macedonians or Bulgarians or Pomaks; The latter could maybe get under the proto Slav level of Macedonians if they additionally assimilated some Anatolian Turks.



I agree.

If you have G25 coords I'd be curious about the result in the calculator in my signature. I regard that calculator good, especially also the tranparency where the single ancient source samples are visible.

Here's a pic I made some time ago for a number of ethnicities out of that mentioned calculator. Here Bulgarians do have the lowest level (38.2%) among Slavic speakers. Unfortunately Macedonians are not contained in the table.

https://i.imgur.com/ErAgu23.jpg


I don't have them, but this one is the most similar to me (on gedmatch) so you can try it.


Serbian:725,0.130897,0.135065,0.043369,0.01615,0.0 24312,0.005578,0.015041,0.010153,-0.000818,-0.005285,0.001624,0.001499,0.000892,0.019267,-0.021444,0.007955,0.010822,0.009755,0.001131,-0.003752,-0.016221,-0.00371,0.003204,-0.009399,-0.010059



EDIT: It seems not to be Macedonians as they seem to have more than Bulgarians:

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.7305% / 0.00730540
46.4 (Balto-)Slavic
37.0 Graeco-Roman
16.6 Balkan

The official average includes only 5 samples of which one is an outlier . Try out this average of 24 samples:



Macedonia,0.124778625,0.142343416666667,0.02462283 3333333,-0.004643125,0.026325375,-0.000697291666667,0.0031725,0.001355625,0.00069870 8333333,0.009590125,0.000264,0.001036541666667,-0.001201666666667,0.008458125,-0.015195041666667,-0.002662916666667,0.006399708333333,0.000258625,0. 004718916666667,-0.004731375,-0.008635833333333,7.2125E-05,0.002932291666667,-5.12499999999992E-06,-0.001322166666667


The Bulgarian average also includes only 5 samples, so it could be misleading.

[Jana]

It doesn't change much if Sunghir6 is removed. But on the north Europe PCA Sunghir6 (marked) plots inconspicious among the other reference samples imo.

https://i.imgur.com/eyQISwI.jpg

Maybe but these other all get Lithuanians and Belarusians in modern Oracles first, Sunhgir gets Ukrainians and south Russians iirc (did not check)
And on K13 Sunghir visibly more southern than them plus some Siberian too.

[Jana]

Sunghir doesn't look that pure compared to other ancient Slavs I posted IMHO, who all fall on Lithuanian-Belorussian cline.

Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_MA_Sunghir6

0.01733881 Russian_Orel
0.01833350 Ukrainian
0.01925938 Russian_Voronez
0.02011280 Russian_Kursk
0.02026939 Russian_Belgorod
0.02107801 Russian_Smolensk
0.02129694 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02137321 Belarusian
0.02247498 Russian_Ryazan
0.02253362 Polish
0.02533379 Russian_Kaluga
0.02607523 Russian_Tver
0.02858635 Lithuanian_PA
0.02990697 Russian_Pskov
0.03093027 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03176859 Moldovan_o
0.03252521 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03284131 Lithuanian_VA
0.03495268 Polish_Kashubian
0.03633967 Slovakian
0.03749295 Lithuanian_RA
0.03883709 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03976665 Czech
0.04059059 Nordva_Moksha
0.04071447 Estonian

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I think the Slavic ancestry of Balkanians is Polish-like.


Distance to: AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
2.51037846 Ukrainian_Galicia
3.35052235 South_Polish
3.92331492 Polish_Silesia
4.01662794 Polish_Southeast
4.34316705 Moldova_Ukrainian

Distance to: AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_
1.75171345 Polish_Kuyavia
2.86347691 Polish
3.05216317 Polish_Kujawy
3.74654508 Polish_Mazovia
3.98610085 Polish_Mazovia

Global25


Target: Croatian
Distance: 0.0049% / 0.00492042 | R2P
70.4 Polish
29.6 Italian_Umbria

Target: Serbian
Distance: 0.0132% / 0.01321084 | R2P
68.5 Ukrainian_Lviv
31.5 Greek_Kos

Target: Serbian
Distance: 0.0080% / 0.00799395 | R3P
42.5 Lithuanian_RA
32.6 Italian_Lombardy
24.9 Greek_Kos

Eurogenes K13


Target: Croat
Distance: 0.4453% / 0.44529358 | R3P
40.2 Polish_Mazovia
33.5 Italian_Marche
26.3 Polish_Lesser_Poland

Target: Croat_East
Distance: 0.8081% / 0.80807037 | R3P
41.8 Polish_Lesser_Poland
32.1 Polish_Southeast
26.1 Greek_Cyclades

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 0.3585% / 0.35851164 | R3P
60.9 Polish_Mazovia
20.5 Italian_Marche
18.6 French_Alsace

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 0.5159% / 0.51585104 | R3P
56.8 Polish_Mazovia
24.0 Italian_Veneto
19.2 Greek_Crete

Target: Croat_West
Distance: 0.5427% / 0.54269622 | R3P
53.8 Polish_Staropolska
37.3 Italian_Trentino
8.9 Greek_Trabzon

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.7919% / 0.79194004 | R3P
62.5 South_Polish
29.3 Greek_Crete
8.2 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Bosnia
Distance: 0.9707% / 0.97069809 | R3P
66.4 Polish_Silesia
27.7 Greek_Crete
5.9 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Croatia
Distance: 0.7934% / 0.79338749 | R3P
50.5 Belarusian_Minsk
32.6 Italian_Lombardy
16.9 Greek_Cappadocian

Target: Serb_Herzegovina
Distance: 0.6890% / 0.68900115 | R3P
57.2 Polish_Lesser_Poland
34.5 Greek_Crete
8.3 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_Central
Distance: 0.8899% / 0.88993271 | R3P
43.5 Belarusian_Minsk
28.8 Greek_Crete
27.7 Italian_Trentino

Target: Serb_Serbia_South
Distance: 0.6107% / 0.61066313 | R3P
47.3 Belarusian_Minsk
31.3 Greek_Chios
21.4 Italian_Lombardy

Target: Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
Distance: 0.8595% / 0.85949676 | R3P
60.7 South_Polish
30.6 Greek_Crete
8.7 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_West
Distance: 0.8380% / 0.83800140 | R3P
65.3 South_Polish
24.4 Greek_Chios
10.3 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Southern_Montenegro
Distance: 0.8541% / 0.85412427 | R3P
49.3 Polish_Silesia
46.2 Italian_Apulia
4.5 Italian_Sardinia

[Jana]

I think the Slavic ancestry of Balkanians is Polish-like.


Distance to: AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
2.51037846 Ukrainian_Galicia
3.35052235 South_Polish
3.92331492 Polish_Silesia
4.01662794 Polish_Southeast
4.34316705 Moldova_Ukrainian

Distance to: AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_
1.75171345 Polish_Kuyavia
2.86347691 Polish
3.05216317 Polish_Kujawy
3.74654508 Polish_Mazovia
3.98610085 Polish_Mazovia

Global25


Target: Croatian
Distance: 0.0049% / 0.00492042 | R2P
70.4 Polish
29.6 Italian_Umbria

Target: Serbian
Distance: 0.0132% / 0.01321084 | R2P
68.5 Ukrainian_Lviv
31.5 Greek_Kos

Target: Serbian
Distance: 0.0080% / 0.00799395 | R3P
42.5 Lithuanian_RA
32.6 Italian_Lombardy
24.9 Greek_Kos

Eurogenes K13


Target: Croat
Distance: 0.4453% / 0.44529358 | R3P
40.2 Polish_Mazovia
33.5 Italian_Marche
26.3 Polish_Lesser_Poland

Target: Croat_East
Distance: 0.8081% / 0.80807037 | R3P
41.8 Polish_Lesser_Poland
32.1 Polish_Southeast
26.1 Greek_Cyclades

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 0.3585% / 0.35851164 | R3P
60.9 Polish_Mazovia
20.5 Italian_Marche
18.6 French_Alsace

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 0.5159% / 0.51585104 | R3P
56.8 Polish_Mazovia
24.0 Italian_Veneto
19.2 Greek_Crete

Target: Croat_West
Distance: 0.5427% / 0.54269622 | R3P
53.8 Polish_Staropolska
37.3 Italian_Trentino
8.9 Greek_Trabzon

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.7919% / 0.79194004 | R3P
62.5 South_Polish
29.3 Greek_Crete
8.2 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Bosnia
Distance: 0.9707% / 0.97069809 | R3P
66.4 Polish_Silesia
27.7 Greek_Crete
5.9 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Croatia
Distance: 0.7934% / 0.79338749 | R3P
50.5 Belarusian_Minsk
32.6 Italian_Lombardy
16.9 Greek_Cappadocian

Target: Serb_Herzegovina
Distance: 0.6890% / 0.68900115 | R3P
57.2 Polish_Lesser_Poland
34.5 Greek_Crete
8.3 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_Central
Distance: 0.8899% / 0.88993271 | R3P
43.5 Belarusian_Minsk
28.8 Greek_Crete
27.7 Italian_Trentino

Target: Serb_Serbia_South
Distance: 0.6107% / 0.61066313 | R3P
47.3 Belarusian_Minsk
31.3 Greek_Chios
21.4 Italian_Lombardy

Target: Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
Distance: 0.8595% / 0.85949676 | R3P
60.7 South_Polish
30.6 Greek_Crete
8.7 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_West
Distance: 0.8380% / 0.83800140 | R3P
65.3 South_Polish
24.4 Greek_Chios
10.3 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Southern_Montenegro
Distance: 0.8541% / 0.85412427 | R3P
49.3 Polish_Silesia
46.2 Italian_Apulia
4.5 Italian_Sardinia

It is likely Slavs who invaded Balkans were already mixed and not pure proto-Slavs, that would even be expected perhaps. But still I think most interesting to find out their proto-Slavic percentage.
AV1 is child of AV2 and seem to be half Panonnian of some sort, kinda mixed with Celto-Germanic and Roman, sth along these lines.

[oszkar07]

My results when using above mentioned ancient Slavs and Illyrians from Croatia and Hungary (I remove Thracian from source who would artificaly increase my Slavic because I have zero Thracian)

Target: Stearsolina_scaled
Distance: 2.2310% / 0.02230987

60.2 (Balto-)Slavic
39.8 Balkan

just for fun. mine using your samples plus

Thraco-Dacian,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Thraco-Dacian,0.1189452,0.1210172,0.0215587,-0.0114665,0.0141048,-0.003951,0.0019977,-0.0041152,-0.0018065,0.021018,0.0008122,0.0028475,-0.0096877,-0.0022708,-0.0063108,0.0022098,0.00452,0.0035473,0.0094065,-0.0026263,-0.008298,0.0063063,-0.0011503,0.002149,0.0005985
Dalmatian,0.119514,0.148267,0.015839,-0.01615,0.032621,-0.010877,-0.00329,-0.001385,0.006954,0.014943,0.004547,0.011989,-0.023042,-0.009909,-0.002307,-0.008751,0.001434,-0.003547,0.006536,0.003252,0.000499,-0.001855,0.003204,-0.001566,-0.017364
Dalmatian,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
Dalmatian,0.124636,0.149283,0.031301,-0.0098515,0.0386225,-0.0023705,-0.00564,-0.002423,0.006647,0.030069,8.15e-05,0.0106405,-0.0150145,-0.009152,-0.006786,0.0086185,0.014277,-0.0020905,0.0034565,-0.011318,-0.0035565,0.0037715,-0.00228,0.002952,-0.001796

Target: Oszkar
Distance: 2.6435% / 0.02643497
39.4 Dalmatian
30.8 (Balto-)Slavic
23.4 (Balto-)SlavicEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
6.4 Thraco-Dacian

[Varda]

Probably Torbeši https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims

[rothaer]

Maybe but these other all get Lithuanians and Belarusians in modern Oracles first, Sunhgir gets Ukrainians and south Russians iirc (did not check)
And on K13 Sunghir visibly more southern than them plus some Siberian too.

Yes, a single PCA does not show all aspects, so there can always be some notable deviations "hidden". For me personally the removal of Sunghir6 doesn't change the Slavic Proportion of 40.0% in this calculator. But Macedonians f. i. get 46.4% with and 46.0% without Sunghir6 among the references. So their "Slavic" obviously had some (small) advantage of the particular character of that Sunghir6 sample.

[Jana]

Yes, a single PCA does not show all aspects, so there can always be some notable deviations "hidden". For me personally the removal of Sunghir6 doesn't change the Slavic Proportion of 40.0% in this calculator. But Macedonians f. i. get 46.4% with and 46.0% without Sunghir6 among the references. So their "Slavic" obviously had some (small) advantage of the particular character of that Sunghir6 sample.

Yes, east/south Balkan better modeled with Sunghir, but that doesn't make Sunghir pure early Slav. Probably they are better modeled with him because he shifts southeastern from other early Slavs I posted.
Better fits can be very misleading.

This is my opinion at least.

[rothaer]

Probably Torbeši https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims

Could well be. If anyone would know a Torbes or Pomak G25 samlple that would be very interesting for comparison.

[rothaer]

Yes, east/south Balkan better modeled with Sunghir, but that doesn't make Sunghir pure early Slav. Probably they are better modeled with him because he shifts southeastern from other early Slavs I posted.
Better fits can be very misleading.

This is my opinion at least.

If Sunghir6 does not fit to the other early Slavs because of some additional traits, it should be removed from the references. And yes, just because the calculator choses what has the best fit, it mustn't be correct.

[Jana]

If Sunghir6 does not fit to the other early Slavs because of some additional traits, it should be removed from the references. And yes, just because the calculator choses what has the best fit, it mustn't be correct.

I am not sure, just expressing my opinion. Would be interested to hear other's opinions too. Perhaps Slavs had diversity too.
But for me it's indicative how Slavs who lived deep into Germany centuries after medieval migrations still managed be so Baltic like, and there were no Baltic migrations into Germany.

Plus Avar2 from Pannonia was also like that and these Moravian Pohansko samples too.

To me this indicates early Slavs were highly homogenous and very much northeastern.

And I think Ukrainians and south Russians have something more southern than that (obviously they don't plot between Belarus and Litwa), maybe of Iranic-Caucasus sort (not sure).
Yes wild fields were re-settled from north and west but still, from what I saw, previous occupants are never truly erased from DNA, some people always remain and intermix.

[Jana]

Scyths and Sarmats were huge tribes in Ukraine area, I simply don't buy expanding Slavs absorbed none of such admixture but just steppe Turks did.
So now I am not talking about Russo-Turkish wars but centuries before that.

Iranic nomads were large mass of people who couldn't vanish just like that!
And I think that sort of light substratum may explain why Ukrainians and southern Russians don't plot like early Slavic samples from Germany, Moravia and Hungary.

[Leto]

It is likely Slavs who invaded Balkans were already mixed and not pure proto-Slavs, that would even be expected perhaps. But still I think most interesting to find out their proto-Slavic percentage.
AV1 is child of AV2 and seem to be half Panonnian of some sort, kinda mixed with Celto-Germanic and Roman, sth along these lines.
Mixed with what? This is getting ridiculous IMO 'cause now Latvians are supposed to be more "Slavic" than the actual Slavs.
I personally prefer to say we're just (North)eastern Europeans. Steppe-rich, Northern-blooded is what matters more to me (and what pisses others off, apparently) than some linguistic labels. :cool:

[Leto]

Scyths and Sarmats were huge tribes in Ukraine area, I simply don't buy expanding Slavs absorbed none of such admixture but just steppe Turks did.
So now I am not talking about Russo-Turkish wars but centuries before that.

Iranic nomads were large mass of people who couldn't vanish just like that!
And I think that sort of light substratum may explain why Ukrainians and southern Russians don't plot like early Slavic samples from Germany, Moravia and Hungary.
The historical Scythians and Sarmatians are said to have disappeared centuries before Russia (Rurikid) was founded in the 9th century. They are mostly ancient history, not medieval.

[Jana]

Mixed with what? This is getting ridiculous IMO 'cause now Latvians are supposed to be more "Slavic" than the actual Slavs.

Slavs who invaded Balkans? Well, no idea, just speculating. Maybe they were pure unaltered Slavs.
Latvians? Def. not. Nobody mentions Latvians here.

[Jana]

double

[Dušan]

Yes, a single PCA does not show all aspects, so there can always be some notable deviations "hidden". For me personally the removal of Sunghir6 doesn't change the Slavic Proportion of 40.0% in this calculator. But Macedonians f. i. get 46.4% with and 46.0% without Sunghir6 among the references. So their "Slavic" obviously had some (small) advantage of the particular character of that Sunghir6 sample.

Sungir6 is good sample, not only for some N.Macedonians, but for other too. I cant be modeled without it, to get close distance.

I dont care about fairytales about Lithuanian-like early Slavs.

[Jana]

The historical Scythians and Sarmatians are said to have disappeared centuries before Russia (Rurikid) was founded in the 9th century. They are mostly ancient history, not medieval.

It sounds like a fairy tale to me. Dissapeared to where, thin air?
Illyrians and Thracians were long gone when Slavs settled Balkans too, but their DNA was not.

[Leto]

It sounds like a fairy tale to me. Dissapeared to where, thin air?
Assimilated by Proto-Slavs before any historical Slavic state was founded (Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia, etc). They were mostly gone by 500 AD according to Wikipedia.

[Jana]

Sungir6 is good sample, not only for some N.Macedonians, but for other too. I cant be modeled without it, to get close distance.

I dont care about fairytales about Lithuanian-like early Slavs.

No, Sunghir6 looks like a light mongrel and unaltered ancient Slavic samples from 3 different countries plot differently. Facts.


Pure Slavs were like this:

(Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.08 1458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0 .004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001,0.129758,0.125 926,0.075424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0 .010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009,0.126344,0.127 957,0.067127,0.070737,0.042162,0.02008,0.011281,0. 014999,-0.001023,-0.032802,-0.001949,-0.01124,0.017542,0.01968,-0.012893,0.007558,0.011604,0.00114,0.005782,0.0115 06,-0.010357,0.003091,0.007765,-0.008796,-0.001676
(Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011,0.125205,0.129 988,0.078818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0 .006692,0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
(Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0 .078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.00429 5,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
(Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0 .081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.0106 35,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275

this is how they score on G25:

Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
0.02177898 Belarusian
0.02424324 Russian_Smolensk
0.02738113 Lithuanian_PA
0.02942821 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02946380 Russian_Voronez
0.02991857 Lithuanian_VA
0.03109674 Russian_Pskov
0.03132255 Polish
0.03168777 Polish_Kashubian
0.03227394 Ukrainian
0.03237800 Lithuanian_RA
0.03264673 Russian_Kaluga
0.03270447 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03272948 Russian_Orel
0.03371607 Russian_Kursk
0.03467135 Russian_Belgorod
0.03512026 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03537807 Estonian
0.03608033 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03658083 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03819133 Russian_Ryazan
0.03840680 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03893276 Latvian
0.03998910 Russian_Tver
0.04858666 Slovakian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH28
0.03697758 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03838355 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04026342 Belarusian
0.04048938 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04129101 Lithuanian_VA
0.04220974 Lithuanian_RA
0.04285783 Russian_Smolensk
0.04314206 Lithuanian_PA
0.04364380 Russian_Pskov
0.04365806 Latvian
0.04497713 Estonian
0.04635229 Russian_Kaluga
0.04739289 Polish_Kashubian
0.04856789 Russian_Voronez
0.05091211 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05175280 Russian_Kursk
0.05201166 Polish
0.05207170 Russian_Belgorod
0.05212985 Russian_Orel
0.05349331 Ukrainian
0.05539713 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05598137 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.05742021 Russian_Tver
0.05757977 Russian_Ryazan
0.06922380 Czech


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:Moravia_POH13
0.02959238 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03078994 Lithuanian_VA
0.03210870 Lithuanian_RA
0.03262025 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03324002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03340955 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03424146 Belarusian
0.03594568 Russian_Pskov
0.03619425 Latvian
0.03635970 Russian_Smolensk
0.04173181 Russian_Kaluga
0.04233442 Russian_Voronez
0.04401853 Estonian
0.04413051 Russian_Orel
0.04484457 Polish_Kashubian
0.04543079 Ukrainian
0.04610116 Russian_Kursk
0.04629550 Polish
0.04641076 Russian_Belgorod
0.04758354 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04843990 Russian_Tver
0.04908628 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04979615 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05057829 Russian_Ryazan
0.06289456 Slovakian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
0.02619433 Lithuanian_PA
0.02623942 Lithuanian_VA
0.02750444 Ukrainian
0.02756525 Russian_Kursk
0.02800635 Russian_Pskov
0.02883002 Russian_Voronez
0.02925384 Belarusian
0.02942825 Russian_Belgorod
0.02993988 Russian_Smolensk
0.03057635 Polish
0.03094735 Russian_Orel
0.03102981 Lithuanian_RA
0.03170694 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03223267 Russian_Kaluga
0.03270898 Russian_Ryazan
0.03372124 Russian_Tver
0.03522329 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03721137 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03731399 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03745611 Moldovan_o
0.03759956 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03787654 Slovakian
0.03943067 Estonian
0.04062850 Latvian
0.04344051 Lithuanian_PZ


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
0.02972696 Lithuanian_PA
0.02995308 Lithuanian_VA
0.03089853 Russian_Pskov
0.03220180 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03277527 Ukrainian
0.03309396 Russian_Kursk
0.03317714 Polish
0.03436156 Russian_Voronez
0.03460398 Belarusian
0.03461603 Russian_Smolensk
0.03491057 Russian_Kaluga
0.03507617 Lithuanian_RA
0.03546241 Russian_Belgorod
0.03548980 Slovakian
0.03642165 Russian_Tver
0.03702802 Russian_Ryazan
0.03733954 Estonian
0.03738154 Russian_Orel
0.03855024 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03901147 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03936651 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04065706 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04067358 Cossack_Kuban
0.04210816 Moldovan_o
0.04229780 Latvian


Distance to: (Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2
0.02285860 Belarusian
0.02419895 Lithuanian_PA
0.02505394 Russian_Smolensk
0.02541556 Russian_Voronez
0.02674336 Ukrainian
0.02703831 Polish
0.02739533 Russian_Kursk
0.02773445 Russian_Orel
0.02828713 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02839289 Lithuanian_VA
0.02896030 Russian_Belgorod
0.02963633 Russian_Pskov
0.02966434 Russian_Kaluga
0.03185186 Russian_Ryazan
0.03197114 Russian_Tver
0.03214046 Lithuanian_RA
0.03226248 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03454520 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03495364 Estonian
0.03557356 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.03823359 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03827265 Polish_Kashubian
0.03925891 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03970452 Latvian
0.03997270 Slovakian


Your modeling of yourself with ancient Greeks and similar type of stuff is laughable.

[Leto]

I dont care about fairytales about Lithuanian-like early Slavs.
Greece was swamped by Slavic-speaking Lithuanians in the 6th century :swl

[Jana]

Assimilated by Proto-Slavs before any historical Slavic state was founded (Russia, Bulgaria, Serbia, etc). They were mostly gone by 500 AD according to Wikipedia.

Well, Slavs from Moravia, east Germany and Hungary lack such type of input, in fact they shift towards Balticum and as we know no migrations of Balts were ever recorded there. That's interesting at least.

[Jana]

Greece was swamped by Slavic-speaking Lithuanians in the 6th century :swl

Dušan hates Lithuanians, he is probably jelly they are closer to early Slavs than he is xD

[StonyArabia]

Bulgarians

[Leto]

Dušan hates Lithuanians, he is probably jelly they are closer to early Slavs than he is xD
Well, what I'm going to say is that he will never celebrate a Croat or Bosniak, even if he scored like a Pole. See his conspicuous silence on the recent Croat results as well as the Bosniak with 37% Baltic that I found.

[Jana]

Well, what I'm going to say is that he will never celebrate a Croat or Bosniak, even if he scored like a Pole. See his conspicuous silence on the recent Croat results as well as the Bosniak with 37% Baltic that I found.

He hate us yes. It seems Bosnian muslims from central-northeast Bosnia are among most Slavic out of all south Slavs, from what I saw.

[Leto]

He hate us yes. It seems Bosnian muslims from central-northeast Bosnia are most Slavic out of all south Slavs, from what I saw.
And that is fascinating considering their religion (let's be honest Islam, albeit not a race, is a largely "brown" thing). Many people assume they are part Turkish or something.

[Token]

Well, Slavs from Moravia, east Germany and Hungary lack such type of input, in fact they shift towards Balticum and as we know no migrations of Balts were ever recorded there. That's interesting at least.

Early Medieval cranial series from Slavic centers of Croatia looked exactly like early Slavic skulls from eastern Poland and the least admixed series of Wendish skulls. I doubt they were admixed to any significant degree, but not sure about the Slavs further south.

[Jana]

Early Medieval cranial series from Slavic centers of Croatia looked exactly like early Slavic skulls from eastern Poland and the least admixed series of Wendish skulls. I doubt they were admixed to any significant degree, but not sure about the Slavs further south.

True.

[vbnetkhio]

I am not sure, just expressing my opinion. Would be interested to her other's opinions too. Perhaps Slavs had diversity too.
But for me it's indicative how Slavs who lived deep into Germany centuries after medieval migrations still menaged be so Baltic like, and there were no Baltic migrations into Germany.

Plus Avar2 from Panonnia was also like that and these Moravian samples too.

To me this indicates early Slavs were highly homogenous and very much northeastern.

And I think Ukrainians and south Russians have something more southern than that (obviously they don't plot between Belarus and Litwa), maybe of Iranic-Caucasus sort (not sure).

Two Krakauer samples with the least Germanic and highest Balto Slavic drift are in fact KRA006 and KRA009. One is more Ukrainian-like and the other more Belarusian.

Some of those you used as Balto-Slavic are in fact Lithuanian-like+ a bit of Germanic.

To me it looks like the tribe which spread R-L260 was Baltic-like, and the other Slavic tribes were Ukrainian-like. The correlation seems pretty strong actually.

Most Slavs have ancestry from both groups, but for example Kashubians look Lithuanian+Scandinavian without any Ukraininian-like, se they are probably the purest descendants of the "R-l260 tribe".

[Jana]

Two Krakauer samples with the least Germanic and highest Balto Slavic drift are in fact KRA006 and KRA009. One is more Ukrainian-like and the other more Belarusian.

Some of those you used as Balto-Slavic are in fact Lithuanian-like+ a bit of Germanic.

To me it looks like the tribe which spread R-L260 was Baltic-like, and the other Slavic tribes were Ukrainian-like. The correlation seems pretty strong actually.

Most Slavs have ancestry from both groups, but for example Kashubians look Lithuanian+Scandinavian without any Ukraininian-like, se they are probably the purest descendants of the "R-l260 tribe".

And what abut pre-Slavic Balkan? Reich paper says Roman admixture was not very relevant in the Balkans (there were Roman, Sarmatian, Germanic soldiers there but their DNA did not spread much apparently). They model south Slavs as Slav proxy + Balkan IA.

[rothaer]

Sungir6 is good sample, not only for some N.Macedonians, but for other too. I cant be modeled without it, to get close distance.

I dont care about fairytales about Lithuanian-like early Slavs.

I know here is now a fight going on so maybe not the best situation for coming with a factual try. But nevertheless:
The question whether one can be modeled with a good fit or not is not descisive for the question whether that modellling is applicable or not. It can therefore also not be of relevance for the question whether Sunghir6 should be used or not for such modelling. I myself considered Sunghir6 suitable, but the only valid point is if Sunghir6 can be considered a good proxy for proto Slavs. On the G25 North Europe PCA it plots perfect, but there might be other differing traits that are not visible on that particular PCA. If Sunghir6 has something that the other unquestionable proto Slav references do not have, that Sunghir6 from the logic can not represent proto Slavs (only).

The paradoxon is: the more you are right that you need Sunghir6 for a good fit modelling, i. e. it makes a difference, the more questionalbe Sunghir6 gets as an applicable reference for proto Slavs. Because for an applicable reference for proto Slavs it should not make a notable difference if you remove it or not.

You could theoretically still be right, but only if you make plausible that all the other proto Slav references are mistaken. I guess this can not be done.

[Dušan]

Well, what I'm going to say is that he will never celebrate a Croat or Bosniak, even if he scored like a Pole. See his conspicuous silence on the recent Croat results as well as the Bosniak with 37% Baltic that I found.

:rotfl

I dont have Nordo-Baltic fetishism at all. You confused me with someone.
In fact, I am proud to my Mediterranean component as same as for proto-Slavic.

[Jana]

And Vbn, even if we ignore Krakauer Berg, Moravian samples and Avar 2 are still Lithuanian and Belorussian like.

[Varda]

Sungir6 is good sample, not only for some N.Macedonians, but for other too. I cant be modeled without it, to get close distance.

I dont care about fairytales about Lithuanian-like early Slavs.

It's hard to believe that Slavs who settled in the Balkans in late 6th and first half of 7th century were like modern Lithuanians. They were probably most similar to modern Ukrainians and Poles. Part of the Slavs before crossed Danube river lived 100 years or more in Pannonia and present day Romania roughly since 500 AD, their further origin is from Ukrainian areas. Other part of Slavic settlers in the Balkans arrived from west Slavic regions (Czechia, Lusatia, Poland). There is no connection with Lithuania.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Early_medieval_migration_of_the_Serbs.png

[Jana]

Two Krakauer samples with the least Germanic and highest Balto Slavic drift are in fact KRA006 and KRA009. One is more Ukrainian-like and the other more Belarusian.

You sure? I used Kra 001,011 and 009. They don't look Germanic at all to me.

Target: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
Distance: 2.0951% / 0.02095059 | R3P

63.0 Belarusian
30.8 Lithuanian_VZ
6.2 Spanish_Pais_Vasco


Target: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
Distance: 1.9297% / 0.01929686 | R3P

65.2 Lithuanian_RA
32.2 Slovakian
2.6 Eritrean


Target: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
Distance: 2.0746% / 0.02074608 | R3P

45.8 Slovakian
42.4 Lithuanian_SZ
11.8 Cossack_Kuban

[Jana]

It's hard to believe that Slavs who settled in the Balkans in late 6th and first half of 7th century were like modern Lithuanians. They were probably most similar to modern Ukrainians and Poles. Part of the Slavs before crossed Danube river they lived 100 years or more in Pannonia and present day Romania roughly since 500 AD, their further origin is from Ukrainian areas. Other part of Slavic settlers in the Balkans arrived from west Slavic regions (Czechia, Lusatia, Poland). There is no connection with Lithuania.

Bad analogy. Just because early Slavs could have been like between Belarus and Litwa genetically does not mean they originate from such area.
Neither are modern Poles and Ukrainians unchanged from ancient times.

Slavic samples from Moravia and Hungary (which is not very northern location) were also more like Lithuanians than like Ukrainians.

[PAGANE]

We Bulgarians and glory to God

[vbnetkhio]

You sure? I used Kra 001,011 and 009. They don't look Germanic at all to me.

Target: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA011
Distance: 2.0951% / 0.02095059 | R3P

63.0 Belarusian
30.8 Lithuanian_VZ
6.2 Spanish_Pais_Vasco


Target: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA009
Distance: 1.9297% / 0.01929686 | R3P

65.2 Lithuanian_RA
32.2 Slovakian
2.6 Eritrean


Target: (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
Distance: 2.0746% / 0.02074608 | R3P

45.8 Slovakian
42.4 Lithuanian_SZ
11.8 Cossack_Kuban

Put them all on a PCA, you'll see that as a group, they are like Belarusians with a slight Germanic admixture. The same goes for AV2.

[Varda]

Bad analogy. Just because early Slavs could have been like between Belarus and Litwa genetically does not mean they originate from such area.
Neither are modern Poles and Ukrainians unchanged from ancient times.

Slavic samples from Moravia and Hungary (which is not very northern location) were also more like Lithuanians than like Ukrainians.

Slavs who lived in Pannonia and modern Romania over 100 years before they settled in the Balkans (mostly under the Avar rule) probably got some local admixture and when they settled in the Balkans they were different from East Slavic tribes (ancestors of Russians and Belorussians).

[Archduke]

The answer is quite simple - Bulgarians (+Macedonians).

The Southern-most Slavic countries who border non-Slavs mostly. The only Slavic nation they border are the Serbs who are also not predominantly Slavic anyway. Historically we also had the least connection with Serbs out of all other neighbours.

[vbnetkhio]

And Vbn, even if we ignore Krakauer Berg, Moravian samples and Avar 2 are still Lithuanian and Belorussian like.

And among them there are also samples whose Slavic part is Ukrainian-like, like AV1, Czech early Slav and most of the Pohansko samples.

In Krakauer Berg that ancestry is lacking, Kra006 is the most Ukrainian-like, but still more Belarusian shifted than most of the forementioned samples.

[ooops]

Some people are so desperate to prove they have northern blood. The obsession with what percentage of 'Slavic genes' someone has is tied up with the obsession with how 'northern' someone is.
Russians prefer to be associated with Lithuanians who hate them rather than with dark Serbs. Croats want to be Central Europeans and Serbs want to prove how they are different from Albanians.
There is nothing special about being Slavic. yet everyone wants to be nordic looking...

[reboun]

Sikeliot, you are banned but if you still follow here, my answer is Macedonians for your original question.

[Jana]

Put them all on a PCA, you'll see that as a group, they are like Belarusians with a slight Germanic admixture. The same goes for AV2.

I'll look into it.

[Jana]

Croats want to be Central Europeans

Northern Croats are central Europeans. I don't see how a Balkanite like you should be bothered by that.

[Renekton]

Bulgarians/Macedonians

[Roy]

Macedonians imho.

[Dušan]

No, Sunghir6 looks like a light mongrel and unaltered ancient Slavic samples from 3 different countries plot differently. Facts.



Your modeling of yourself with ancient Greeks and similar type of stuff is laughable.

Sungir6 is good sample of ancient Slavic population. Deal with it.

Nothing laughable, I indeed have partly pre-Slavic component that is simmilar to ancient Greek, and it is higher than Illyrian Iron Age. :)

This is from Commonsense's calculator.

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.4077% / 1.40772730
36.6 Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_
20.6 Paleo_Balkan:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
17.5 Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541
10.3 Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454
8.4 Paleo_Balkan:I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
6.6 Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

[Jana]

Sungir6 is good sample of ancient Slavic population. Deal with it.

Nothing laughable, I indeed have partly pre-Slavic component that is simmilar to ancient Greek, and it is higher than Illyrian Iron Age. :)

This is from Commonsense's calculator.

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.4077% / 1.40772730
36.6 Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_
20.6 Paleo_Balkan:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
17.5 Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541
10.3 Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454
8.4 Paleo_Balkan:I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
6.6 Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

There was no Greek like population in northern Balkans (or Thracian in Herzegovina for that matter). Your model looks like an unrealistic overfit.
Pointless because these people were not present in the region at all.

[rothaer]

I don't have them, but this one is the most similar to me (on gedmatch) so you can try it.


Serbian:725,0.130897,0.135065,0.043369,0.01615,0.0 24312,0.005578,0.015041,0.010153,-0.000818,-0.005285,0.001624,0.001499,0.000892,0.019267,-0.021444,0.007955,0.010822,0.009755,0.001131,-0.003752,-0.016221,-0.00371,0.003204,-0.009399,-0.010059



The official average includes only 5 samples of which one is an outlier . Try out this average of 24 samples:



Macedonia,0.124778625,0.142343416666667,0.02462283 3333333,-0.004643125,0.026325375,-0.000697291666667,0.0031725,0.001355625,0.00069870 8333333,0.009590125,0.000264,0.001036541666667,-0.001201666666667,0.008458125,-0.015195041666667,-0.002662916666667,0.006399708333333,0.000258625,0. 004718916666667,-0.004731375,-0.008635833333333,7.2125E-05,0.002932291666667,-5.12499999999992E-06,-0.001322166666667


The Bulgarian average also includes only 5 samples, so it could be misleading.

The Serbian that resembles you, as you say, gets high Slavic here:

Target: Serbian:725
Distance: 2.4620% / 0.02461956
57.6 (Balto-)Slavic
28.4 Balkan
12.6 Graeco-Roman
1.4 Turkic

The Macedonian average out of 24 is like this and thus lower than the Bulgarian one:

Target: Macedonia
Distance: 0.4391% / 0.00439142
36.8 (Balto-)Slavic
32.4 Graeco-Roman
30.8 Balkan

[rothaer]

Two Krakauer samples with the least Germanic and highest Balto Slavic drift are in fact KRA006 and KRA009. One is more Ukrainian-like and the other more Belarusian.

Some of those you used as Balto-Slavic are in fact Lithuanian-like+ a bit of Germanic.

To me it looks like the tribe which spread R-L260 was Baltic-like, and the other Slavic tribes were Ukrainian-like. The correlation seems pretty strong actually.

Most Slavs have ancestry from both groups, but for example Kashubians look Lithuanian+Scandinavian without any Ukraininian-like, se they are probably the purest descendants of the "R-l260 tribe".

Your theory with such a heterogeneity has to be thought of.

You use "Scandinavian" instead of "Germanic" regarding Kashubs, and the reason why you at all say something else than "Germanic" is that Kashubs plot different to an only Germanic admixture and this is true. It even looks like they would be somewhat Finnish shifted. This is hard to understand. But even harder to understand is that KRA003 plots Kashub-like on the G25 North Europe PCA. Do you have any explanation for that in mind?

[Dušan]

There was no Greek like population in northern Balkans (or Thracian in Herzegovina for that matter). Your model looks like an unrealistic overfit.
Pointless because these people were not present in the region at all.


And how do you know what look like genetics of pre-Slavic population of Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, when it has not yet been explored in detailes?
Obviously it was different than in Croatia.

[Jana]

And how do you know what look like genetics of pre-Slavic population of Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, when it has not yet been explored in detailes?
Obviously it was different than in Croatia.

Pre-Slavic population of Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro and west Serbia was firmly Illyrian. Croatian early IA sample is from deep Dalmatian hinterland, right on border with Herzegovina if I am not mistaken.
More samples are needed (especially from late IA and antiquity) but so far there is no reason to assume these people suddenly became heavily East Med.

Especially not in dinaric wastelands where hardly any Romans went.

[Jana]

Border of Illyrian and Thracian tribes went trough Morava river valley and trough Kosovo most likely.

[Nomadian90']

Your theory with such a heterogeneity has to be thought of.

You use "Scandinavian" instead of "Germanic" regarding Kashubs, and the reason why you at all say something else than "Germanic" is that Kashubs plot different to an only Germanic admixture and this is true. It even looks like they would be somewhat Finnish shifted. This is hard to understand. But even harder to understand is that KRA003 plots Kashub-like on the G25 North Europe PCA. Do you have any explanation for that in mind?

Genetic research of Kashubians. I think you will be interested. But you must having this translate.

http://www.tropie.tarnow.opoka.org.pl/pol_regiony.htm

[Dušan]

Pre-Slavic population of Herzegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro and west Serbia was firmly Illyrian. Croatian early IA sample is from deep Dalmatian hinterland, right on border with Herzegovina if I am not mistaken.
More samples are needed (especially from late IA and antiquity) but so far there is no reason to assume these people suddenly became heavily East Med.

Especially not in dinaric wastelands where hardly any Romans went.


And how do you know that the Illyrians are genetically/ethnically homogeneous from the northwest in Slovenia, Croatia, to the southeast in Serbia, Montenegro and Albania?
Especially when it was recorded that they were fighting with each other.

Most likely Illyrians is a collective name given to a diverse group of tribes and tribal alliances of the Thracian-Illyrian branch of the Indo-European ethno-linguistic family, once inhabited in areas from the Pannonian Plain to the Adriatic coast.

[vbnetkhio]

I'll look into it.

I added all the early and medieval Slavic samples here, and highlighted what I think were 3 groups of unmixed Early Slavs. An Ukrainian-like, Lithuanian-like and intermediary.

https://i.imgur.com/macUcRd.png

Slavs from Krakauer Berg and Viking age Denmark are a mix of the intermedieary group and Germanics. AV2 is also there. The Polish sample from Cedynia is probably an unmixed representative of this group.
Samples from northern Poland and Sweden are the "Lithuanian" group + Germanic.
Most Pohansko Samples, Early Czech Slav, Av1, and one Polish sample are a mix of the "Ukrainian" group and Germanic.

Medieaval East Slavs are unmixed Ukrainian-like.

[Jana]

Why do you assume there is mix with Germanics for Lithuanian like samples though? I would expect slight SW shift from Lithuanians to be exactly what proto Slavs should have (connected to I2-din)
Just because some early Slavs plot like Lithuanians with shift towards Goths, it does not mean they are mixed with them.

Lithuanians are N1c heavy and have little I2-din, they should be even more radically northeastern than proto Slavs.

[Jana]

And how do you know that the Illyrians are genetically/ethnically homogeneous from the northwest in Slovenia, Croatia, to the southeast in Serbia, Montenegro and Albania?
Especially when it was recorded that they were fighting with each other.

They are probably not. But BA samples from east Slavonia and Dalmatian hinterland were homogenous, and that tells something.
More samples are needed. Maybe southern Illyrians in MNE/ALB were more Thracian like, or maybe they weren't. None knows. But they couldn't have been like Greek Islanders.


Most likely Illyrians is a collective name given to a diverse group of tribes and tribal alliances of the Thracian-Illyrian branch of the Indo-European ethno-linguistic family, once inhabited in areas from the Pannonian Plain to the Adriatic coast.

Yes. And northern Illyrians had large contacts and influences from Celts and Veneti. Some even say Liburnians weren't even Illyrians but Venetic tribes.
Very little is known about them.

What I think tho, is that these models heavily exegerate Roman genetic influence.

We will see when paper comes out. I heard they have Serbian (Moesian) IA samples, Croatian (Illyrian) and Slovenian (Illyrian-Keltic) IA as well.

[rothaer]

I added all the early and medieval Slavic samples here, and highlighted what I think were 3 groups of unmixed Early Slavs. An Ukrainian-like, Lithuanian-like and intermediary.

https://i.imgur.com/macUcRd.png

Slavs from Krakauer Berg and Viking age Denmark are a mix of the intermedieary group and Germanics. AV2 is also there. The Polish sample from Cedynia is probably an unmixed representative of this group.
Samples from northern Poland and Sweden are the "Lithuanian" group + Germanic.
Most Pohansko Samples, Early Czech Slav, Av1, and one Polish sample are a mix of the "Ukrainian" group and Germanic.

Medieaval East Slavs are unmixed Ukrainian-like.

It's an interesting theory.

But your assumed proto Slavs would plot like a banana on the PCA (your three black circles) which is per se unlikeley. A "normal" heterogeneity would go in all directions and just make the a basically "round" area on the plot bigger. At least in tendency.
Doubtless a number of individuals that you add to the assumed by others as proto Slav groups are mixed. Individuals like Av1 and RISE569 (Early Czech) can be completely discarded as proto Slav references. Arbitrary slavic-like individuals from Scandinavia as well. There is also no serious cause for assuming all Krakauer Berg individuals (they are very late) to be proto Slavic in genetics, just the moste extreme ones could be thought of. So these individuals could be thought of to be proto Slavic:

Av2
KRA001
KRA009
KRA011
POH13
POH28

Likely also
VK2020 (Zehden, East Brandenburg)
Sunghir6 (may be questioned depending on whether Stearsolina's objections are applicable or not)

We will then have abt. that area that I circled in red here as proto Slavic. And it has some heterogeneity.

https://i.imgur.com/Nebb4hJ.jpg

Your left black circle I assume are southern admixed proto Slavs and the green area are people that are not just admixed with Germanics like from Kovalevko, but also a lot with all that indigenous (likely Germanisised in 600 AD) pre Germanic people that lived in Bohemia and Pannonia. Consider that all that dark admixture in Bohemians, Upper Saxons, Thuringians and Southern Saxony-Anhaltians very likely is neither from early Celts, nor from early Germanics, nor from proto Slavs, but from the prior LBK-influenced population. This easily explains why that admixture resulting in the green area from a proto Slav perspective - as circled in red above - is not just in the direction of Kovalevko Goths (or Burgundians). Because of the obvious prior population in these areas that were not that early Germanic-like as Kovalevko Goths your left black circle is even disproved to be proto Slavic. Why? Because from that position the green field just shows an admixture in the direction of Kovalevko Goths.

My conclusion: I agree to your middle and right black circle to be proto Slavic and I add abt. half of your red area to that, resulting in my red circle. I reject your left black cirlce as part of proto Slavs with the aforementioned motivation. The various admixture directions of the Proto slavs, resulting in the various known samples, are marked with red arrows. (Note that I do basically agree to your center and right black line as an admixture direction, just not to the left one.)

Is that a reasonable point of view?

[vbnetkhio]

Why do you assume there is mix with Germanics for Lithuanian like samples though? I would expect slight SW shift from Lithuanians to be exactly what proto Slavs should have (connected to I2-din)
Just because some early Slavs plot like Lithuanians with shift towards Goths, it does not mean they are mixed with them.

You mean the samples between AV2 and Pohansko_o2?
Krakauer samples are from deep in Germanic territory, and they have some local y-dna from Germany. They also have lowered Balto-Slavic drift, compared to medieval East Slavs and samples like Cedynia, which have the highest Balto-Slavic drift of all Slavic samples (Balto-Slavic drift pulls south on this PCA).



Lithuanians are N1c heavy and have little I2-din, they should be even more radically northeastern than proto Slavs.

By the time N1c reached Latvia and Lithuania, it's autosomal was probably like Iron age Estonians (Balts with Germanic and minor Siberian amdixture) so it would pull Latvians and Lithuanians slightly to the south.

But I think neither I2-din nor N1c left any autosomal influence. They are both a result of recent founder effects, and both Balts and Slavs kept their pre-I2/N1c autosomal.

[vbnetkhio]

It's an interesting theory.

But your assumed proto Slavs would plot like a banana on the PCA (your three black circles) which is per se unlikeley. A "normal" heterogeneity would go in all directions and just make the a basically "round" area on the plot bigger. At least in tendency.
Doubtless a number of individuals that you add to the assumed by others as proto Slav groups are mixed. Individuals like Av1 and RISE569 (Early Czech) can be completely discarded. Arbitrary slavic-like individuals from Scandinavia as well. There is also no serious cause for assuming all Krakauer Berg individuals (they are very late) to be proto Slavic in genetics, just the moste extreme ones could be thought of. So these individuals could be thought of to be proto Slavic:

Av2
KRA001
KRA009
KRA011
POH13
POH28

Likely also
VK2020 (Zehden, East Brandenburg)
Sunghir6 (may be questioned depending on whether Stearsolina's objections are applicable or not)

We will then have abt. that area that I circled in red here as proto Slavic. And it has some heterogeneity.

https://i.imgur.com/Nebb4hJ.jpg

Your left black circle I assume are southern admixtured proto Slavs and the green area are people that are not just admixed with Germanics like from Kovalevko, but also a lot with all that indigenous (likely Germanisised in 600 AD) pre Germanic people that lived in Bohemia and Pannonia. Consider that all that dark admixture in Bohemians, Upper Saxons, Thuringians and Southern Saxony-Anhaltians is neither from early Celts, nor from early Germanics, nor from proto Slavs, but from the prior LBK-influenced population. This easily explains why that admixture resulting in the green area from a proto Slav perspective - as circled in red above - is not just in the direction of Kovalevko Goths (or Burgundians). Because of the obvious prior population in these areas that were not that early Germanic-like as Kovalevko Goths your left black circle is even disproved to be proto Slavic. Why. Because from that position the green fied just show an admixture in the direction of Kovalevko Goths.

My conclusion: I agree to your middle and right black circle to be proto Slavic and I add abt. half of your red area to that, resulting in my red circle. I reject your left black cirlce as part of proto Slavs with the aforementioned motivation. The various admixture directions of the Proto slavs, resulting in the various known samples, are marked with red arrows. (Note that I do basically agree to your center and right black line as an admixture direction, just not to the left one.)

Is that a reasonable point of view?

Problem is the samples like Lutsk and Chernigov. They are both from Polesye, which is often considered as the proto-Slavic homeland. To get Lutsk/Chernigov from Pohansko_o2, something super southern from the Balkans is needed. That is possible of course, but many modern Ukrainians, South Russians and Poles are similar to them, and there is no explanation how all these areas received significant Balkan admixture.

One of the Iron Age Ukrainian Scythians is also similar to Lutsk/Chernigov, indiciating that this is something which existed in Polesye for a long time. There are rumors that a Bronze age Ukrainian similar to them will also be published.

So this type of autosomal is IMO something which existed in the proto-Slavic homeland for a long time, and later was spread by Slavs in their expansion.

[Dušan]

They are probably not. But BA samples from east Slavonia and Dalmatian hinterland were homogenous, and that tells something.
More samples are needed. Maybe southern Illyrians in MNE/ALB were more Thracian like, or maybe they weren't. None knows. But they couldn't have been like Greek Islanders.



Yes. And northern Illyrians had large contacts and influences from Celts and Veneti. Some even say Liburnians weren't even Illyrians but Venetic tribes.
Very little is known about them.

What I think tho, is that these models heavily exegerate Roman genetic influence.

We will see when paper comes out. I heard they have Serbian (Moesian) IA samples, Croatian (Illyrian) and Slovenian (Illyrian-Keltic) IA as well.

Maybe they couldnt have been like Greek islanders, but they could have been like Greek mainlanders.

Since early begining studying of my autosomal on Gedmatch K13, I got Greek in model with Ukrainians in mixed mode oracle.

https://i.imgur.com/RKzEyYu.png

It is not coincidence or mistake, but proxy of pre-Slavic population of Serbia.

[Jana]

They also have lowered Balto-Slavic drift, compared to medieval East Slavs and samples like Cedynia, which have the highest Balto-Slavic drift of all Slavic samples (Balto-Slavic drift pulls south on this PCA).

Is this Cedynia sample available on K13 or G25?
Very informative posts as always.

[Leto]

Maybe they couldnt have been like Greek islanders, but they could have been like Greek mainlanders.

Since early begining studying of my autosomal on Gedmatch K13, I got Greek in model with Ukrainians in mixed mode oracle.

https://i.imgur.com/RKzEyYu.png

It is not coincidence or mistake, but proxy of pre-Slavic population of Serbia.
Stearsolina is lowering your Slavic by claiming they were more Northern than Ukrainians. And you shouldn't care about that because you have repeatedly refused to downplay your Wog influence in favor of Slavdom.

[Jana]

Stearsolina is lowering your Slavic by claiming they were more Northern than Ukrainians. And you shouldn't care about that because you have repeatedly refused to downplay your Wog influence in favor of Slavdom.

I'm not lowering anything (it lowers my Slavic too), just interested in the truth. Some old gedmatch Oracles don't mean much.
It's said lot of Vlachs from south and central Balkans moved to the west with Ottoman expansions.

[Sora]

Idk much about this, but I guess Macedonians, Sorbians, Czecho-Slovakians, Bulgarians & Northern Russians(with some Ural individuals)

These are very shocking!

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/r5yy8u/very_finnic_shifted_results_from_an_ethnic/

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/qzmr8p/northern_russians_closest_populations_using_g25/

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/r9iugf/russian_result_from_perm_krai_looks_quite/

[Leto]

I'm not lowering anything (it lowers my Slavic too), just interested in the truth. Some old gedmatch Oracles don't mean much.
It's said lot of Vlachs from south and central Balkans moved to the west with Ottoman expansions.
Okay, I'm just messing around. To be honest, I don't have much of value to add. I'm kinda tired of this least-most Slavic stuff. Some sock puppet (?) bumped this old thread out of the blue and all you guys dug in.

[Dušan]

Stearsolina is lowering your Slavic by claiming they were more Northern than Ukrainians. And you shouldn't care about that because you have repeatedly refused to downplay your Wog influence in favor of Slavdom.

???

Unlike you who are obsesed with Nordicism, I am proud to whole my ancestors, be they proto-Slavs or pre-Slavic population.
Now go licking Bosnian Muslim feets who score 37% Baltic.

[Insuperable]

Most likely Illyrians is a collective name given to a diverse group of tribes and tribal alliances of the Thracian-Illyrian branch of the Indo-European ethno-linguistic family, once inhabited in areas from the Pannonian Plain to the Adriatic coast.

It was a name given by Greeks and Romans to a bunch of loosely connected tribes. Even Greeks and Romans had a differing view of who is Illyrian.

[Leto]

???

Unlike you who are obsesed with Nordicism, I am proud to whole my ancestors, be they proto-Slavs or pre-Slavic population.
Now go licking Bosnian Muslim feets who score 37% Baltic.
Listen, that's not "Nordicism". I'm a light guy with Northeastern genetics and R1a (Balto-Slavic). It's not like I'm an Indian from the slums of New Delhi dreaming about ancient Aryans or whatever. And I don't conceal my admiration for Steppe ancestry, it's not illegal to praise the Steppe and R1a. As for Muslims, I bet I'm more religious than you (not a better person, to be clear) and possibly more conservative too but if they do score like that, so be it. They are just converted Europeans anyway. I don't lick their feet, it's ridiculous.

[vbnetkhio]

Is this Cedynia sample available on K13 or G25?
Very informative posts as always.

here:



VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538, 0.00634,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479

there is k13 too, it was posted long ago by Lukasz.

[Dušan]

here:



VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538, 0.00634,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479

there is k13 too, it was posted long ago by Lukasz.

Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62


Distance to: Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212
2.66169119 Polish_Kuyavia
3.71463323 Russian_Smolensk
4.39064915 Belarusian_Minsk
4.65089239 Polish
4.74334270 Belorussian
4.94245890 Polish_Mazovia
5.01271384 Polish_Mazovia
5.01906366 Polish_Kujawy
5.69627071 Russian_Tver-Yaroslavl
5.72924079 Polish_Kielce
5.72924079 Polish_Kielce
5.79243472 Russian_average
5.89872020 Russian_Pskov
6.12176445 Lithuanian
6.15299927 Polish_Staropolska
6.16771433 Polish_WarmiaMasuria
6.16771433 Polish_Masuria
6.39271460 Estonian
6.55720977 Russian_Ryazan
6.62269583 Polish_Podlaskie
6.66403782 Polish_Podlaskie
6.80412375 Russian_Southwest
6.88226707 Polish_GreaterPoland
6.90468681 Ukrainian
6.97984957 Polish_Greater_Poland

[rothaer]

Problem is the samples like Lutsk and Chernigov. They are both from Polesye, which is often considered as the proto-Slavic homeland. To get Lutsk/Chernigov from Pohansko_o2, something super southern from the Balkans is needed. That is possible of course, but many modern Ukrainians, South Russians and Poles are similar to them, and there is no explanation how all these areas received significant Balkan admixture.

One of the Iron Age Ukrainian Scythians is also similar to Lutsk/Chernigov, indiciating that this is something which existed in Polesye for a long time. There are rumors that a Bronze age Ukrainian similar to them will also be published.

So this type of autosomal is IMO something which existed in the proto-Slavic homeland for a long time, and later was spread by Slavs in their expansion.

Chernigov I consider outside of the assumingly Slavic urheimat, but Lutsk is admittedly within. This sample is not very old, if I see it correctly. It's marked with MA for Middle Ages and if I recall that study correctly, they used that for depicting a time period after Viking Age (VA) and they even depicted a lot of samples VA that were completely uncertain wheter they were from wiking age or not. F. i. their Sigtuna samples. In the paper it's written that they were from 10th to 12th century and they just labelled them VA. (Viking age is according to common sense from 793-1066.) So I don't know from when the Lutsk sample, labelled MA is from, maybe from 1300 or 1400? However, this is so many centuries after proto Slavs that I do not yet se it as the problem. There can well have come some more southern people in the meantime. Note that Lutsk ist not very much southern shifted compared to what I assume proto Slav.

If there would be older such samples found, I'd agree that it would be a problem for my assumption. As my opinion is nothing what I wish, but just something that I think explains best what I know till today, I'll gladly adept to new findings if there appear some.

Iron Age Scytians would I not see as a problem as they can be tied to that ethnicity and we know what great area, also much more southern, they settled in. So that genetic can be expected without assuming that the Genetic of proto Slavs will have been like that. It's not impossible though.

Do you know the dating of the Lutsk sample and do you know from where that rumored bronze age "Ukrainian" is from?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Do you know the dating of the Lutsk sample?

https://i.imgur.com/8bkGgLk.png

[Leto]

Chernigov I consider outside of the assumingly Slavic urheimat, but Lutsk is admittedly within.
It is in what is now Northern Ukraine, just east of Kiev, and one of the oldest Kievan Russian cities.

[rothaer]

https://i.imgur.com/8bkGgLk.png

So 1250, thank you!

[rothaer]

It is in what is now Northern Ukraine, just east of Kiev, and one of the oldest Kievan Russian cities.

Thank you, I know. I had looked it up. I do consider the Slavic urheimat below the NE slopes of the Carpathians, maybe not more than 300 km in lengh (estimate in line with the place name research of Udolph

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.ojs-doi-10_17651_ONOMAST_60_15 )

and then likely reaching somewhat northeastwards. I didn't want to be too picky with Lutsk, but Chernigov NE of Kiew is definitely far outside of this area.

[Leto]

Thank you, I know. I had looked it up. I do consider the Slavic urheimat below the NE slopes of the Carpathians, maybe not more than 300 km in lengh (estimate in line with the place name research of Udolph

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.ojs-doi-10_17651_ONOMAST_60_15 )

and then likely reaching somewhat northeastwards. I didn't want to be too picky with Lutsk, but Chernigov NE of Kiew is definitely far outside of this area.
Nah, that's autism to me. We can say between the Vistula and the Dnieper (Warsaw - Kiev) or something like that.

[vbnetkhio]

Chernigov I consider outside of the assumingly Slavic urheimat, but Lutsk is admittedly within. This sample is not very old, if I see it correctly. It's marked with MA for Middle Ages and if I recall that study correctly, they used that for depicting a time period after Viking Age (VA) and they even depicted a lot of samples VA that were completely uncertain wheter they were from wiking age or not. F. i. their Sigtuna samples. In the paper it's written that they were from 10th to 12th century and they just labelled them VA. (Viking age is according to common sense from 793-1066.) So I don't know from when the Lutsk sample, labelled MA is from, maybe from 1300 or 1400? However, this is so many centuries after proto Slavs that I do not yet se it as the problem. There can well have come some more southern people in the meantime. Note that Lutsk ist not very much southern shifted compared to what I assume proto Slav.

If there would be older such samples found, I'd agree that it would be a problem for my assumption. As my opinion is nothing what I wish, but just something that I think explains best what I know till today, I'll gladly adept to new findings if there appear some.

Iron Age Scytians would I not see as a problem as they can be tied to that ethnicity and we know what great area, also much more southern, they settled in. So that genetic can be expected without assuming that the Genetic of proto Slavs will have been like that. It's not impossible though.

Do you know the dating of the Lutsk sample and do you know from where that rumored bronze age "Ukrainian" is from?

the Lutsk and Chernigov samples are of these two noblemen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleb_Svyatoslavich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_of_Kiev

Gleb is 1/4 Scandinavian and Ingvar is 1/2 Czech, and yet they plot the way they do. Maybe the commoners from this area were even more Balto-Slavic drifted at this time. Modern Ukrainians from this area all look more Germanic or Baltic shifted than them.

The Bronze age Ukrainian will be from Verteba cave, western Ukraine.

The Scythian is this one from the Cherkassy area:


Scythian_UKR:MJ14,0.135449,0.120848,0.046386,0.065 569,0.035699,0.01004,0.012221,0.024922,-0.005113,-0.024602,-0.004384,-0.005245,0.025124,0.007707,-0.017644,-0.002784,0.021513,0.004687,0.010559,0.015257,0.000 998,0.00507,0.013434,0.001205,-0.008742

[Varda]

Probably Torbeši https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Muslims

Torbeši are small primarily religious group. If we don't count them, definitely Macedonians are the least Slavic genetically of all Slavic speakers.

[Varda]

---

xD https://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=89957919&postcount=7465 :thumb001:

[princeton90]

Macedonians.

[Ion Basescul]

Maybe they couldnt have been like Greek islanders, but they could have been like Greek mainlanders.

Since early begining studying of my autosomal on Gedmatch K13, I got Greek in model with Ukrainians in mixed mode oracle.

https://i.imgur.com/RKzEyYu.png

It is not coincidence or mistake, but proxy of pre-Slavic population of Serbia.

I doubt they could have been like Greek islanders. It was likelier a population with more West Med than East Med. Greek islanders have significantly more East Med. Or maybe that's because the Slavic part came with West Med and next to no East Med, hence why West Med is inflated in Serbs.

[Dušan]

I doubt they could have been like Greek islanders. It was likelier a population with more West Med than East Med. Greek islanders have significantly more East Med. Or maybe that's because the Slavic part came with West Med and next to no East Med, hence why West Med is inflated in Serbs.

Well, I said like Greek mainlanders, as you can see.
It was Stearsolina who mentioned islanders first.

[Roy]

I doubt they could have been like Greek islanders. It was likelier a population with more West Med than East Med. Greek islanders have significantly more East Med. Or maybe that's because the Slavic part came with West Med and next to no East Med, hence why West Med is inflated in Serbs.

It is very likely to be correct what you suggest here. I myself score quite a lot of West Med (almost 12%) while scoring close to 0 East Med. It seemed to be a trend among ethnic Poles unless one has partial Jewish ancestry (the very low East Med admixture). And I plot well within the Polish cluster iirc. Poles are regarded as one of the more 'Slavic Slavs' so there's that. Albeit I've seen reportedly proto-Slavic samples who were Lithuanian-like so it is not so clear yet. I am of opinion that Early Slavic speakers were relatively heterogeneous actually.

[vbnetkhio]

regarding the pre-Slavic population, I think this is something that should work for most of the Balkans:


Balkan_LateRoman,21.09,5.77,23.87,14.30,28.13,5.31 ,0.34,0.21,0.14,0.11,0.24,0.39,0.10

it's 25% Croatia IA, 25% Bulgaria IA, 50% Imperial Roman.

[Leto]

regarding the pre-Slavic population, I think this is something that should work for most of the Balkans:


Balkan_LateRoman,21.09,5.77,23.87,14.30,28.13,5.31 ,0.34,0.21,0.14,0.11,0.24,0.39,0.10

it's 25% Croatia IA, 25% Bulgaria IA, 50% Imperial Roman.
Can you show me the Imperial Roman sample?

[vbnetkhio]

Can you show me the Imperial Roman sample?

I just used the average of all imperial Roman samples.


Imperial_Roman,12.79,3.50,21.15,18.80,34.25,6.65,0 .68,0.41,0.09,0.23,0.48,0.77,0.20

[Leto]

I just used the average of all imperial Roman samples.
Thanks. It comes up as very, very swarthy as expected. But it also goes to show that most Southern Italians have little to no Moorish blood in them.

Distance to: Imperial_Roman
2.85301595 Greek_Symi_Island
3.03581949 Greek_Dodecanese
4.02950369 Greek_Chios
5.26613710 Italian_Calabria
5.82471459 Greek_North_Aegean
6.69300381 Greek_Crete
7.54807260 Malta
7.67216397 Sephardic_Jewish
8.41893105 Turk_Cypriot
8.52778987 Italian_Campania

Target: Imperial_Roman
Distance: 1.0725% / 1.07254880 | ADC: 0.5x RC
58.9 Greek_Symi_Island
33.3 Greek_Chios
6.8 Syrian
1.0 Greek_Cappadocian

[vbnetkhio]

here's something that further confirms my theory:

https://i.imgur.com/xMl2b2R.png

A sample from an upcoming study about Celts. His dating and location are still unknown. He is R-M458 and plots like the "Balts" from Pohansko, but even more BS drifted.
Since the study is about Celts, he could be from somewhere Iron Age Eastern Poland (the most eastern reach of Celtic archaeological influence), but I'm just guessing.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

regarding the pre-Slavic population, I think this is something that should work for most of the Balkans:


Balkan_LateRoman,21.09,5.77,23.87,14.30,28.13,5.31 ,0.34,0.21,0.14,0.11,0.24,0.39,0.10

it's 25% Croatia IA, 25% Bulgaria IA, 50% Imperial Roman.


Distance to: Balkan_LateRoman
3.98361645 Italian_Basilicata
4.12654819 Italian_Abruzzo
4.12710552 Italian_Molise
4.17538022 Italian_Apulia
4.29025640 Italian_Sicily

This seems correct, the simplest model I could do to model the pre-Slavic ancestry of Serbs.

Target: Serbian (27.32% Baltic)
Distance: 0.9723% / 0.97229454 | R2P
52.2 Polish_WarmiaMasuria (44.26% Baltic)
47.8 Italian_Abruzzo (8.67% Baltic)

[vbnetkhio]

--

[vbnetkhio]

Distance to: Balkan_LateRoman
3.98361645 Italian_Basilicata
4.12654819 Italian_Abruzzo
4.12710552 Italian_Molise
4.17538022 Italian_Apulia
4.29025640 Italian_Sicily

This seems correct, the simplest model I could do to model the pre-Slavic ancestry of Serbs.

Target: Serbian (27.32% Baltic)
Distance: 0.9723% / 0.97229454 | R2P
52.2 Polish_WarmiaMasuria (44.26% Baltic)
47.8 Italian_Abruzzo (8.67% Baltic)

I based it on the PCA from the Danube Limes study:

https://i.imgur.com/bPowrdH.jpg

[JosephK]

Czech bastards.

[vbnetkhio]

They are probably not. But BA samples from east Slavonia and Dalmatian hinterland were homogenous, and that tells something.
More samples are needed. Maybe southern Illyrians in MNE/ALB were more Thracian like, or maybe they weren't. None knows. But they couldn't have been like Greek Islanders.



Yes. And northern Illyrians had large contacts and influences from Celts and Veneti. Some even say Liburnians weren't even Illyrians but Venetic tribes.
Very little is known about them.

What I think tho, is that these models heavily exegerate Roman genetic influence.

We will see when paper comes out. I heard they have Serbian (Moesian) IA samples, Croatian (Illyrian) and Slovenian (Illyrian-Keltic) IA as well.

Slovenia IA is already available in G25:


Slovenia_EIA:I5689,0.132035,0.142174,0.050911,0.01 8411,0.046162,0.007809,0.00329,0.005077,0.00634,0. 006925,0.001786,0.001649,-0.00892,-0.002752,0.002172,0.004641,-0.002868,0.00038,-0.000754,0.003126,0.00025,0.002102,-0.000616,-0.008796,-0.000958
Slovenia_EIA:I5690,0.127482,0.135065,0.058454,0.02 6809,0.044624,0.006414,0.007285,0.013846,0.001432, 0.006378,0.002436,0.006744,-0.01219,-0.009221,0.007057,0.004906,-0.003651,0.003167,0.001634,-0.000375,-0.002995,0.006059,0.000123,0.007832,-0.003712
Slovenia_EIA:I5691,0.129758,0.146236,0.043369,0.00 6783,0.044008,-0.000837,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.012885,0.028429,0.002761,0.008243,-0.016501,-0.011423,0.002443,-0.001989,0.004433,0.00228,-0.002137,0.002001,0.000374,0.006925,-0.000616,0.001687,0.000239
Slovenia_EIA:I5692,0.125205,0.15436,0.033187,0,0.0 35083,-0.008646,-0.00188,0.001385,0.014521,0.030798,-0.004547,0.005245,-0.018583,-0.008808,-0.005972,-0.00305,0.002086,0.000887,0.00352,-0.007003,-0.001996,0.000989,-0.001602,-0.004699,-0.00479
Slovenia_EIA:I5693,0.129758,0.151314,0.049403,-0.000969,0.047393,-0.001673,0.002115,-0.001615,0.009408,0.033714,-0.00341,0.002997,-0.020069,0.001789,-0.000136,-0.00305,-0.014342,0.005321,0.004777,-0.00075,0.00549,0.01694,-0.002218,-0.002169,0.003473
Slovenia_EIA:I5696,0.12862,0.147252,0.039975,-0.008721,0.049855,-0.018686,-0.001175,-0.003,0.024134,0.041914,0.001786,0.014387,-0.026164,-0.011147,-0.0038,0.009944,0.007953,0.000253,0.007919,-0.008879,-0.000374,0.003339,-0.011339,-0.008073,0.003712
Slovenia_EIA:I5697,0.126344,0.139128,0.047517,0.02 5194,0.041546,0.004741,0.00094,0.002538,0.001432,0 .010205,-0.003897,0.007194,-0.014866,-0.012799,0.006786,0.012066,0.014342,-0.003547,0.002765,-0.005002,0.003868,0.002226,0.00419,-0.003253,-0.008023
Slovenia_EIA:I5698,0.12862,0.147252,0.052797,0.005 814,0.051086,-0.006136,-0.000705,0.004846,0.020248,0.027153,0.00341,0.0028 47,-0.004162,-0.016102,-0.004343,0.011668,0.021774,-0.00076,0.011187,0.003502,0.000499,0.007048,-0.001109,-0.010363,-0.002275

[Dušan]

I took Imperial Roman average that vbnetkhio provided, Iron Age Bulgaria and Croatia, and several ancient Slavic samples.



Imperial_Roman,12.79,3.50,21.15,18.80,34.25,6.65,0 .68,0.41,0.09,0.23,0.48,0.77,0.20
I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48 ,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00,0.00
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15 ,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00

Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25. 54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08, 0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,3 0.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.8 9,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26, 8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63, 3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14. 97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.3 7,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9. 89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Slavic:KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3 ,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
Slavic:KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43, 0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
Slavic:VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2 .56,0,0,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0



This is Serbian average

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05



Target: Serb
Distance: 0.8704% / 0.87035441
60.7 Slavic
26.8 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
11.5 Imperial_Roman
1.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp



Me

Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.5924% / 2.59241188
69.4 Slavic
15.5 Imperial_Roman
15.1 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp




I do not get any trace of Croatia Iron Age, and Serb average got only 1%.

[Dušan]

You too didnt get Croatia Iron Age

Target: vbn
Distance: 2.9217% / 2.92167846
65.6 Slavic
21.5 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
12.9 Imperial_Roman

[Jana]

Slovenia IA is already available in G25:


Slovenia_EIA:I5689,0.132035,0.142174,0.050911,0.01 8411,0.046162,0.007809,0.00329,0.005077,0.00634,0. 006925,0.001786,0.001649,-0.00892,-0.002752,0.002172,0.004641,-0.002868,0.00038,-0.000754,0.003126,0.00025,0.002102,-0.000616,-0.008796,-0.000958
Slovenia_EIA:I5690,0.127482,0.135065,0.058454,0.02 6809,0.044624,0.006414,0.007285,0.013846,0.001432, 0.006378,0.002436,0.006744,-0.01219,-0.009221,0.007057,0.004906,-0.003651,0.003167,0.001634,-0.000375,-0.002995,0.006059,0.000123,0.007832,-0.003712
Slovenia_EIA:I5691,0.129758,0.146236,0.043369,0.00 6783,0.044008,-0.000837,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.012885,0.028429,0.002761,0.008243,-0.016501,-0.011423,0.002443,-0.001989,0.004433,0.00228,-0.002137,0.002001,0.000374,0.006925,-0.000616,0.001687,0.000239
Slovenia_EIA:I5692,0.125205,0.15436,0.033187,0,0.0 35083,-0.008646,-0.00188,0.001385,0.014521,0.030798,-0.004547,0.005245,-0.018583,-0.008808,-0.005972,-0.00305,0.002086,0.000887,0.00352,-0.007003,-0.001996,0.000989,-0.001602,-0.004699,-0.00479
Slovenia_EIA:I5693,0.129758,0.151314,0.049403,-0.000969,0.047393,-0.001673,0.002115,-0.001615,0.009408,0.033714,-0.00341,0.002997,-0.020069,0.001789,-0.000136,-0.00305,-0.014342,0.005321,0.004777,-0.00075,0.00549,0.01694,-0.002218,-0.002169,0.003473
Slovenia_EIA:I5696,0.12862,0.147252,0.039975,-0.008721,0.049855,-0.018686,-0.001175,-0.003,0.024134,0.041914,0.001786,0.014387,-0.026164,-0.011147,-0.0038,0.009944,0.007953,0.000253,0.007919,-0.008879,-0.000374,0.003339,-0.011339,-0.008073,0.003712
Slovenia_EIA:I5697,0.126344,0.139128,0.047517,0.02 5194,0.041546,0.004741,0.00094,0.002538,0.001432,0 .010205,-0.003897,0.007194,-0.014866,-0.012799,0.006786,0.012066,0.014342,-0.003547,0.002765,-0.005002,0.003868,0.002226,0.00419,-0.003253,-0.008023
Slovenia_EIA:I5698,0.12862,0.147252,0.052797,0.005 814,0.051086,-0.006136,-0.000705,0.004846,0.020248,0.027153,0.00341,0.0028 47,-0.004162,-0.016102,-0.004343,0.011668,0.021774,-0.00076,0.011187,0.003502,0.000499,0.007048,-0.001109,-0.010363,-0.002275


Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5698

0.03620033 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03712043 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03751409 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03781650 Spanish_Girona
0.03816913 Spanish_Castello
0.03825951 Spanish_Soria
0.03887258 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03901771 Swiss_French
0.03910108 French_Auvergne
0.03928640 Spanish_Penedes
0.03990152 Spanish_Lleida
0.04014872 Spanish_Baleares
0.04082932 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04093109 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04120532 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04244801 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04281684 Spanish_Barcelones
0.04302469 French_Occitanie
0.04375045 French_Provence
0.04401022 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04403877 Spanish_Valencia
0.04411215 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04467171 Spanish_Cantabria
0.04475480 French_South
0.04536694 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5697

0.02833961 Swiss_French
0.02840135 Swiss_German
0.02998099 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03006671 French_Alsace
0.03013543 French_Nord
0.03080317 French_Paris
0.03088586 Belgian
0.03264885 French_Auvergne
0.03323105 French_Occitanie
0.03455815 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03487486 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03519744 French_Provence
0.03630435 Austrian
0.03778455 German
0.03943445 French_Brittany
0.04013198 Afrikaner
0.04054248 Spanish_Penedes
0.04066832 Italian_Northeast
0.04132484 Spanish_Girona
0.04251770 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.04327343 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04351814 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04352584 Welsh
0.04376197 Montenegrin
0.04397301 Spanish_Soria

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5696

0.03234288 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.03538392 Spanish_Castello
0.03740585 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03766556 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03821191 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03851309 Spanish_Lleida
0.03857278 Spanish_Baleares
0.03883943 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03890931 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03924372 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03986602 Spanish_Valencia
0.04011423 Spanish_Alacant
0.04022496 Spanish_Girona
0.04025876 Spanish_Menorca
0.04050127 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04051845 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.04081729 Spanish_Navarra
0.04087657 Spanish_Aragon
0.04116086 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04128794 Spanish_Cataluna
0.04144940 Spanish_Penedes
0.04156245 French_Corsica
0.04182449 Italian_Bergamo
0.04207991 Spanish_Murcia
0.04220601 French_South

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5693

0.03188540 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03230291 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.03357251 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03376342 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03463421 French_Auvergne
0.03469857 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.03492877 Spanish_Lleida
0.03555980 Spanish_Mallorca
0.03563694 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03583428 Spanish_Menorca
0.03602994 French_Occitanie
0.03680081 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03704783 Spanish_Eivissa
0.03713198 Spanish_Valencia
0.03737874 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03741414 Spanish_Aragon
0.03744834 Spanish_Penedes
0.03799166 Italian_Bergamo
0.03811738 Spanish_Baleares
0.03829694 Spanish_Girona
0.03836378 Spanish_Cantabria
0.03837645 Italian_Lombardy
0.03840294 French_South
0.03844732 Spanish_Castello
0.03878653 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5692

0.01884852 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02032235 Italian_Bergamo
0.02074098 Italian_Veneto
0.02269970 Spanish_Baleares
0.02307947 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02442493 Spanish_Menorca
0.02458126 Italian_Lombardy
0.02594380 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02658628 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02681418 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02693113 Spanish_Girona
0.02768907 Spanish_Penedes
0.02861246 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02862688 Italian_Piedmont
0.02868125 Spanish_Lleida
0.02886524 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02917939 French_Provence
0.02920826 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02953563 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.02959726 French_Corsica
0.02961253 Italian_Northeast
0.02981728 Spanish_Pirineu
0.03015110 Spanish_Alacant
0.03073624 Spanish_Castello
0.03086872 Spanish_Barcelones

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5691

0.01772366 Spanish_Penedes
0.01780894 French_Auvergne
0.01865424 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.01870648 Swiss_French
0.01902269 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.01937575 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.01970217 Spanish_Girona
0.02025144 Spanish_Lleida
0.02033068 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02108185 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.02141721 French_Provence
0.02209646 French_Occitanie
0.02331665 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02348462 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02348778 Spanish_Baleares
0.02407408 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02413374 Spanish_Castello
0.02490645 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02595530 Spanish_Cantabria
0.02638997 Spanish_Aragon
0.02648827 Spanish_Valencia
0.02672735 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02676597 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02762874 Spanish_Menorca
0.02770778 Italian_Veneto

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5690

0.02135795 French_Alsace
0.02185423 French_Nord
0.02224166 Belgian
0.02292636 Swiss_German
0.02456111 German
0.02599531 French_Paris
0.02797027 Austrian
0.02822305 Afrikaner
0.02828635 French_Brittany
0.02846568 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02970049 Welsh
0.03044665 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03120623 Dutch
0.03130009 English_Cornwall
0.03164843 English
0.03284064 French_Occitanie
0.03443270 French_Auvergne
0.03453790 Scottish
0.03641945 Orcadian
0.03680063 Hungarian
0.03713867 Swiss_French
0.03773100 Danish
0.03795500 Shetlandic
0.03933315 Irish
0.04043052 French_Provence

Distance to: Slovenia_EIA:I5689

0.02229676 French_Alsace
0.02471939 Swiss_German
0.02499476 French_Nord
0.02778487 French_Auvergne
0.02795823 French_Occitanie
0.02827933 Austrian
0.02920741 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02972861 Belgian
0.02993030 French_Seine-Maritime
0.02996418 Swiss_French
0.03194496 French_Paris
0.03223456 German
0.03452591 Italian_Northeast
0.03466911 French_Provence
0.03671695 Croatian
0.03673354 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03687480 Montenegrin
0.03771890 Hungarian
0.03837524 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.03839178 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.03850238 Slovenian
0.03854034 Serbian
0.03862743 Spanish_Barcelones
0.03863748 Spanish_Penedes
0.03875259 French_Brittany

[Jana]

Some of these Slovenian samples look "Illyrian" while those clustering with north French look Celtic IMHO. Some come from Croatian border area as far as I know.
Would be interesting to properly identify material culture each sample is identified with, so we could more easily distinguish Illyrians from Celts (and maybe some are a mix of them?)

[Jana]

I took Imperial Roman average that vbnetkhio provided, Iron Age Bulgaria and Croatia, and several ancient Slavic samples.



Imperial_Roman,12.79,3.50,21.15,18.80,34.25,6.65,0 .68,0.41,0.09,0.23,0.48,0.77,0.20
I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48 ,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00,0.00
I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15 ,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00

Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25. 54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08, 0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,3 0.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.8 9,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26, 8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63, 3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14. 97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.3 7,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9. 89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Slavic:KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3 ,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
Slavic:KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43, 0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
Slavic:VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2 .56,0,0,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0



This is Serbian average

Serb,24.72,29.47,17.13,9.20,15.42,1.55,0.55,0.27,0 .72,0.53,0.30,0.08,0.05



Target: Serb
Distance: 0.8704% / 0.87035441
60.7 Slavic
26.8 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
11.5 Imperial_Roman
1.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp



Me

Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.5924% / 2.59241188
69.4 Slavic
15.5 Imperial_Roman
15.1 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp




I do not get any trace of Croatia Iron Age, and Serb average got only 1%.

Thracian sample already plot with more southern shifted central Italians, and Imperial Romans plot like borderline MENAs. Such a score like from your model would make Serb pre-Slavic part supper woggy deep south Italian like.
Not realistic at all especially considering prečani originate from Illyrian regions.

Neither should one get fit below 1 for ancient model, that's not realistic at all.

[Jana]

This seems correct, the simplest model I could do to model the pre-Slavic ancestry of Serbs.

Target: Serbian (27.32% Baltic)
Distance: 0.9723% / 0.97229454 | R2P
52.2 Polish_WarmiaMasuria (44.26% Baltic)
47.8 Italian_Abruzzo (8.67% Baltic)

Yeah this looks much more realistic.

[Jana]

I based it on the PCA from the Danube Limes study:

https://i.imgur.com/bPowrdH.jpg

Doesn't this show locals in Roman age Serbia (who were between Croatian and Bulgarian IA) did not mix with MENA like Romans?

[Dušan]

Thracian sample already plot with more southern shifted central Italians, and Imperial Romans plot like borderline MENAs. Such a score like from your model would make Serb pre-Slavic part supper woggy deep south Italian like.
Not realistic at all especially considering prečani originate from Illyrian regions.

Neither should one get fit below 1 for ancient model, that's not realistic at all.

Yes, our pre-Slavic part is "supper woggy deep south Italian like".
It is realistic, and it is seen in this chart.

https://i.imgur.com/n0BcQdp.png

Origin of "prečani" is most likely from central Balkan, and we are not different from other Serbs, as it is proven for hundred times.

0% IA Croatia, thank dear God. :thumb001:

[Jana]

Yes, our pre-Slavic part is "supper woggy deep south Italian like".
It is realistic, and it is seen in this chart.

https://i.imgur.com/n0BcQdp.png

Origin of "prečani" is most likely from central Balkan, and we are not different from other Serbs, as it is proven for hundred times.

0% IA Croatia, thank dear God. :thumb001:

Even native Balkanites in Serbia proper were between Croatian and Bulgarian IA, and not entirely Thracian like and they were actual Moesians which is a subset of Thracians.
Your models show Serbs are not native in western Balkans at all, and than you should stop claiming that.

Truth is though that most western Serbs are native to east Herzegovina and surrounding regions however. It's just that your modeling is very illogical and unrealistic.

[Dušan]

Even native Balkanites in Serbia proper were between Croatian and Bulgarian IA, and not entirely Thracian like and they were actual Moesians which is a subset of Thracians.
Your models show Serbs are not native in western Balkans at all, and than you should stop claiming that.

Truth is though that most western Serbs are native to east Herzegovina and surrounding regions however. It's just that your modeling is very illogical and unrealistic.

And where is the source that east Herzegovina was similar IA_Croatia?
Again your bullshit.

vbnetkhio is agree with me, actualy this modeling is made from his own data.
You are ignorant and stupid.

[Jana]

And where is the source that east Herzegovina was similar IA_Croatia?
Again your bullshit.

Serbian samples come east of Herzegovina, and they were Thracians, idiot. In Herzegovina lived Illyrians. Thus Serbian IA should be closer to Bulgarian IA than B&H IA should be. It falls in-between (Cro and BG IA) even, while I expected it to be like Bulgarian IA completely. Here is results from Illyrian tribe of southern Italy (Apulia)

Distance to: Daunian_IA:ORD009_517BC_Quality=70.05%

0.03375273 French_Corsica
0.03402973 Italian_Veneto
0.03500182 Italian_Piedmont
0.03527467 Italian_Tuscany
0.03556619 Swiss_Italian
0.03639077 Italian_Bergamo
0.03884339 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04026252 Italian_Umbria
0.04182701 Spanish_Baleares
0.04239967 Italian_Northeast
0.04291958 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04303520 Italian_Lombardy
0.04311957 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04322355 Spanish_Menorca
0.04353634 Italian_Marche
0.04476102 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04508314 Albanian
0.04542251 Greek_Thessaly
0.04542500 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04567742 French_Provence
0.04579698 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.04627010 Italian_Lazio
0.04644970 Spanish_Girona
0.04647612 Italian_Liguria
0.04702300 Spanish_Murcia

Target: Daunian_IA:ORD009_517BC_Quality=70.05%
Distance: 2.6038% / 0.02603835 | R2P

55.0 Greek_Laconia
45.0 Spanish_Soria


vbnetkhio is agree with me, actualy this modeling is made from his own data.
You are ignorant and stupid.

Says the ratard who removes Bosniak averages because he plots closest to them lul xD

[Dušan]

Serbian samples come east of Herzegovina, and they were Thracians, idiot. In Herzegovina lived Illyrians. Thus Serbian IA should be closer to Bulgarian IA than B&H IA should be. It falls in-between (Cro and BG IA) even, while I expected it to be like Bulgarian IA completely. Here is results from Illyrian tribe of southern Italy (Apulia)



Illyrian were not homogenous group of people.

And here are the regional results:

https://i.imgur.com/uRGphfb.png


With wierd exception of western Serbia and Montenegro, no IA Croatia.


This is from CroRats

https://i.imgur.com/eVQr5Q5.png

Even Dalmatian CroRats gets more Bulgarian than Croatian IA, and you talking something about East Herzegovina.

[Jana]

Illyrian were not homogenous group of people.

So far no genetic evidence for that. Those from Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary and south Italy plot relatively similar. Even one from south Italy is nothing like modern south Italians.


Even Dalmatian CroRats gets more Bulgarian than Croatian IA, and you talking something about East Herzegovina.

You are dumb. I also get modeled with IA Bulgaria and not IA Croatia. I doesn't mean it is correct. Unlike you, I don't declare some model correct just because it fits my personal results.

[Dušan]

You are dumb. I also get modeled with IA Bulgaria and not IA Croatia. I doesn't mean it is correct. Unlike you, I don't declare some model correct just because it fits my personal results.

You are dumb, and a liar as well.

Target: Stearsolina(Croat)
Distance: 2.8821% / 2.88209825
67.4 Slavic
24.1 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
5.1 Imperial_Roman
3.4 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp

[Jana]

And north Croats have German like admixture that bleeds to Croatian IA in this Slav-Balkan model because western Euro reference is lacking.
I still repeat, what Reich paper states is realistic, with native Balkanites being between Croatian and Bulgarian IA which would probably make them central Italian like.

But Sicilian like or whatever? Only if MENA genocide of Balkanites and ethnic replacement happened. If you think you are heavily MENA, be my guest xD

[vbnetkhio]

Doesn't this show locals in Roman age Serbia (who were between Croatian and Bulgarian IA) did not mix with MENA like Romans?

Those Near Eastern samples in red are also from Viminacium. These samples are from a period when the 2 groups lived side by side and didn't mix with each other yet.

[Jana]

You are dumb, and a liar as well.

Target: Stearsolina(Croat)
Distance: 2.8821% / 2.88209825
67.4 Slavic
24.1 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
5.1 Imperial_Roman
3.4 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp

I mean in my G25 calc. Your model has no west Euro proxy.

Target: Stearsolina_scaled
Distance: 1.6472% / 0.01647246

53.4 (Balto-)Slavic:DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA_KRA001
15.4 Balkan:BGR_IA_I5769
14.0 Graeco-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR111
8.8 Celtic_like:DEU_Lech_EBA_AITI_78
6.2 (Balto-)Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2
1.4 Turkic:TUR_Ottoman_MA2195
0.8 Graeco-Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR76

And I think my calculator has serious flaws.

[Jana]

Those Near Eastern samples in red are also from Viminacium. These samples are from a period when the 2 groups lived side by side and didn't mix with each other yet.

Which period is that? Just curious.

[Dušan]

I mean in my G25 calc. Your model has no west Euro proxy.
.

As you can see, this model seems very realistic to you.

[vbnetkhio]

Which period is that? Just curious.

I'm not sure, the radiocarbon datings should be available in the supplementary data of the study.

The mena samples were burried in richer graves than the locals, so maybe they didn't mix because of a class difference. This could've been a phenomenon specific for Viminacium only.

[rothaer]

I still repeat, what Reich paper states is realistic, with native Balkanites being between Croatian and Bulgarian IA (...)

Which indicates that these two samples - that according to the PCA posted farther up are almost at the opposite ends of the spektrum - are applicable references for modelling old Balkan, even if hardly anyone gets modelled with CRO IA in G25. For whatever reason. And why this seems different in K13, remains a conundrum.

[Dušan]

But Sicilian like or whatever? Only if MENA genocide of Balkanites and ethnic replacement happened. If you think you are heavily MENA, be my guest xD

Here it is mine Sicilian.

Prego, signora

https://i.imgur.com/qwaXmDR.png

[Jana]

Here it is mine Sicilian.

Prego, signora

https://i.imgur.com/qwaXmDR.png

So you believe your native Balkan ancestors were genocided and replaced by "Romans" (actually near MENAs)? I don't like that idea!

[Dušan]

So you believe your native Balkan ancestors were genocided and replaced by "Romans" (actually near MENAs)? I don't like that idea!

It is not about what I like or not like, but finding a truth about ancestral autosomal genetics of Balkan population.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, our pre-Slavic part is "supper woggy deep south Italian like".
It is realistic, and it is seen in this chart.

https://i.imgur.com/n0BcQdp.png

Origin of "prečani" is most likely from central Balkan, and we are not different from other Serbs, as it is proven for hundred times.

0% IA Croatia, thank dear God. :thumb001:

Yes. From what I saw on Gedmatch, Serbs with the highest NA are probably from NE Bosnia. Krajina and Vojvodina Serbs have less because their ethnogenesis happened further south.

[Jana]

It is not about what I like or not like, but finding a truth about ancestral autosomal genetics of Balkan population.

We will see. I accept anything which is truth.

[KirillMazur]

And I think Ukrainians and south Russians have something more southern than that (obviously they don't plot between Belarus and Litwa), maybe of Iranic-Caucasus sort (not sure).
Yes wild fields were re-settled from north and west but still, from what I saw, previous occupants are never truly erased from DNA, some people always remain and intermix.

Scyths and Sarmats were huge tribes in Ukraine area, I simply don't buy expanding Slavs absorbed none of such admixture but just steppe Turks did.
So now I am not talking about Russo-Turkish wars but centuries before that.

Iranic nomads were large mass of people who couldn't vanish just like that!
And I think that sort of light substratum may explain why Ukrainians and southern Russians don't plot like early Slavic samples from Germany, Moravia and Hungary.
True 100%. Since I am outside genetics, I have no numbers, but my eyes and brain for 20 years of life in the Crimea and 2 years in the Odessa region confirm this. Here is a different substrate compared to the Moscow region, not to mention the more northern regions. But there are also many "northern" settlers.
Whatever one may say, multi-million people do not disappear without a trace:).

[Leto]

True 100%. Since I am outside genetics, I have no numbers, but my eyes and brain for 20 years of life in the Crimea and 2 years in the Odessa region confirm this. Here is a different substrate compared to the Moscow region, not to mention the more northern regions. But there are also many "northern" settlers.
Whatever one may say, multi-million people do not disappear without a trace:).
Those groups weren't "multi-million" though. It's not like a group of Slavs would have magically assimilated hordes of non-Slavs.
Southern Russians and Ukrainians still do not score a lot of West Asian (not more than Poles or Slovaks for example) which means the supposed Iranic thing cannot have been massive.

If you ever get to order a DNA test, my advice is not to go for Genotek which is the only officially allowed DNA testing company in Russia. Their raw data is shit (V5 chip). Choose FTDNA instead, it's not banned yet.

[Varda]

Even native Balkanites in Serbia proper were between Croatian and Bulgarian IA, and not entirely Thracian like and they were actual Moesians which is a subset of Thracians.
Your models show Serbs are not native in western Balkans at all, and than you should stop claiming that.

Truth is though that most western Serbs are native to east Herzegovina and surrounding regions however. It's just that your modeling is very illogical and unrealistic.

True.
For example I1-FGC22045 and N-FGC28435 are strong in Krajina Serbs and both are founded in skeletons from Cernica near Gacko (East Herzegovina) from the late middle age https://hercegbosna.org/forum/post1638232.html#p1638232
Krajina Serbs have tons of matches in East/Old Herzegovina among other haplos as well, and they are linguistically connected with East Herzegovina. There is no linguistic connection between Krajina Serbs and old shtokavian ijekavian ("Montenegrin"), old shtokavian ekavian of central Serbia, Torlakian etc.

[Dušan]

True.
For example I1-FGC22045 and N-FGC28435 are strong in Krajina Serbs and both are founded in skeletons from Cernica near Gacko (East Herzegovina) from the late middle age https://hercegbosna.org/forum/post1638232.html#p1638232
Krajina Serbs have tons of matches in East/Old Herzegovina among other haplos as well, and they are linguistically connected with East Herzegovina. There is no linguistic connection between Krajina Serbs and old shtokavian ijekavian ("Montenegrin"), old shtokavian ekavian of central Serbia, Torlakian etc.

Yes.
The fact is that "Illyrians" were not homogenous people, those in northwestern part are different, while those of southeast Illyricum is closer to "Thracians".
In other words, autosomal genetics of pre-Slavic component of Serbs and Croats are different.
That is fact proven by autosomal genetics.

[Jana]

Yes.
The fact is that "Illyrians" were not homogenous people, those in northwestern part are different, while those of southeast Illyricum is closer to "Thracians".

Baseless claim without any proof. Croatian IA sample is from southern area. And IA Apulian is nothing like Thracian as well. Apulia is much more southern than majority of west Balkans.


In other words, autosomal genetics of pre-Slavic component of Serbs and Croats are different.
That is fact proven by autosomal genetics.

Not really. Depends on the region.

[Dušan]

Baseless claim without any proof. Croatian IA sample is from southern area. And IA Apulian is nothing like Thracian as well. Apulia is much more southern than majority of west Balkans.



What about Apulia?
Are you talking about influence of Roman colonisation?
Yes, and there is different situation, it was stronger in areas settled with Serbs, than areas with Croats, in area of nortern Croats, no occured at all.




Not really. Depends on the region.

Only southern Croats are a bit closer, the rest are not at all.
Varda would say they are catholicized Serbs.
Well by genetics it could be.

[Jana]

What about Apulia?
Are you talking about influence of Roman colonisation?
Yes, and there is different situation, it was stronger in areas settled with Serbs, than areas with Croats, in area of nortern Croats, no occured at all.

Apulia sample is from Illyrian tribe that came to Apulia from Dalmatia.
Northern Croatia had Celts, does not mean there were no Romans there (there were even in Hungary). There is also later Hungarian-German influence.


Only southern Croats are a bit closer, the rest are not at all.
Slavonian Croats pre-Slavic is very southern, they just have high Baltic. Outside of Kajkavian area most Illyrian-shifted pre-Slavic seems to be on the Islands.


Varda would say they are catholicized Serbs.
Well by genetics it could be.

Keep dreaming. Here is my 100% north Čakavian friend and he plots like Slavonian and Bosnian Croats (bad raw tho)

1.89230633 24.40% Ashkenazi + 75.60% South_Polish
1.91501174 65.60% Southwest_Russian + 34.40% Tuscan
2.05197081 41.00% Central_Greek + 59.00% Estonian
2.06836817 40.80% Belorussian + 59.20% Romanian
2.11068372 63.40% Belorussian + 36.60% Italian_Abruzzo
2.14019503 62.20% Estonian + 37.80% South_Italian
2.19374833 64.80% Serbian + 35.20% Southwest_Russian
2.20844427 60.40% Bulgarian + 39.60% Estonian
2.20928916 20.60% Italian_Jewish + 79.40% South_Polish
2.24241227 52.00% Estonian + 48.00% Greek_Thessaly
2.29117001 60.00% Bulgarian + 40.00% Finnish
2.36317668 31.00% Belorussian + 69.00% Serbian
2.37149409 80.60% South_Polish + 19.40% Tunisian_Jewish
2.38392837 40.20% East_Sicilian + 59.80% Estonian
2.39902963 20.60% Algerian_Jewish + 79.40% South_Polish
2.41382230 64.00% Estonian_Polish + 36.00% Italian_Abruzzo
2.41477149 20.60% Sephardic_Jewish + 79.40% South_Polish
2.41830483 64.60% Belorussian + 35.40% West_Sicilian
2.45086013 31.40% Estonian_Polish + 68.60% Serbian
2.56697423 41.20% Estonian_Polish + 58.80% Romanian
2.56813092 35.40% Estonian + 64.60% Romanian
2.63051570 19.20% Libyan_Jewish + 80.80% South_Polish
2.66311259 67.40% Belorussian + 32.60% South_Italian
2.69938095 25.60% Lithuanian + 74.40% Serbian
2.74221854 45.00% Belorussian + 55.00% Bulgarian

My other Čakavian Croat friend plots like north-western Croats.

It's not back and white.

[Jana]

Neither all Serbs score tha same, ofc. This Dalmatian Serb pre-Slavic part is more northern than Dušan's.

Distance to: Nausevar(Serb)

2.76075908 11.00% Sardinian + 89.00% Serbian
3.11056430 60.40% Moldavian + 39.60% North_Italian
3.36782865 58.80% Croatian + 41.20% Tuscan
3.43118799 52.40% Tuscan + 47.60% Ukrainian_Lviv
3.56702628 63.80% Moldavian + 36.20% Tuscan
3.64875643 54.20% Tuscan + 45.80% Ukrainian
4.09252394 79.60% Moldavian + 20.40% Sardinian
4.13079957 39.80% Russian_Smolensk + 60.20% Tuscan
4.21926988 64.60% Croatian + 35.40% West_Sicilian
4.22393558 55.60% Croatian + 44.40% North_Italian
4.29585245 35.00% Lithuanian + 65.00% Tuscan
4.34773798 42.20% Polish + 57.80% Tuscan
4.36481097 39.40% Estonian_Polish + 60.60% Tuscan
4.39390138 33.40% Erzya + 66.60% North_Italian
4.49906036 59.20% Tuscan + 40.80% Ukrainian_Belgorod
4.57083715 41.20% Southwest_Russian + 58.80% Tuscan
4.59185750 62.40% North_Italian + 37.60% Ukrainian_Belgorod
4.62386591 17.80% North_Italian + 82.20% Serbian
4.66633945 53.40% Ukrainian_Lviv + 46.60% West_Sicilian
4.73525856 88.00% Serbian + 12.00% Southwest_French
4.75427856 87.80% Serbian + 12.20% Spanish_Andalucia
4.76225177 62.20% North_Italian + 37.80% Southwest_Russian
4.76863779 37.80% Kargopol_Russian + 62.20% Tuscan
4.77508605 51.60% Ukrainian + 48.40% West_Sicilian
4.78417356 46.40% South_Polish + 53.60% Tuscan

[Ajeje Brazorf]

There is a possibility that actually the Balkans before the arrival of the Slavs were more west-shifted than modern-day southern Italians, this could also be why Albanians have virtually the same EEF amount as southern Italians despite also having received Slavic input. And there is also the possibility that proto-Slavs had already mixed before reaching the Balkans, and would therefore look more something like Poles with 42 or 43% Baltic rather than Belarusians.


Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.5486% / 0.54858688 | R3P
62.9 Polish_Mazovia
23.8 Greek_Chios
13.3 Italian_Lombardy

Target: Bosniak_Bosnia
Distance: 0.5322% / 0.53224037 | R2P
76.6 Polish_Silesia
23.4 Greek_North_Aegean

Target: Bosniak_Sandzak
Distance: 1.1310% / 1.13095049 | R3P
48.0 Italian_Apulia
47.0 Polish_Silesia
5.0 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.8175% / 0.81749495 | R2P
70.0 Polish_Silesia
30.0 Italian_Marche

Target: Croat_East
Distance: 0.8419% / 0.84185435 | R2P
75.0 Polish_Lesser_Poland
25.0 Greek_North_Aegean

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 0.7262% / 0.72617436 | R2P
74.2 Polish_Lesser_Poland
25.8 Italian_Umbria

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 0.8594% / 0.85937287 | R2P
61.7 Ukrainian
38.3 Italian_Lazio

Target: Croat_West
Distance: 0.5674% / 0.56736294 | R3P
56.5 Polish_Staropolska
34.9 Italian_Veneto
8.6 Greek_Cappadocian

Target: Macedonian-Central
Distance: 1.2189% / 1.21892447 | R3P
60.3 Italian_Molise
32.9 Polish_Lower_Silesia
6.8 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Macedonian-East
Distance: 1.0640% / 1.06402907 | R3P
45.9 Greek_Chios
31.3 Southwest_French
22.8 Latvian

Target: Macedonian-North
Distance: 1.5340% / 1.53401990 | R3P
39.7 Greek_Chios
31.4 Belarusian_Minsk
28.9 Italian_Lombardy

Target: Macedonian-South
Distance: 1.3456% / 1.34563407 | R3P
66.3 Italian_Apulia
27.9 Belarusian_Minsk
5.8 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 0.7249% / 0.72493235 | R3P
53.7 Polish_Lesser_Poland
38.2 Greek_North_Aegean
8.1 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.9277% / 0.92766754 | R3P
56.4 Polish_Mazovia
38.7 Italian_Apulia
4.9 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Bosnia
Distance: 0.9319% / 0.93185455 | R3P
66.8 Polish_Silesia
28.5 Greek_North_Aegean
4.7 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Croatia
Distance: 0.7934% / 0.79338749 | R3P
50.5 Belarusian_Minsk
32.6 Italian_Lombardy
16.9 Greek_Cappadocian

Target: Serb_Herzegovina
Distance: 0.9719% / 0.97186409 | R3P
54.6 Ukrainian
38.3 Italian_Molise
7.1 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_Central
Distance: 0.9179% / 0.91791462 | R3P
48.5 Belarusian_Minsk
28.3 Greek_North_Aegean
23.2 Italian_Lombardy

Target: Serb_Serbia_South
Distance: 0.6107% / 0.61066313 | R3P
47.3 Belarusian_Minsk
31.3 Greek_Chios
21.4 Italian_Lombardy

Target: Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
Distance: 0.9584% / 0.95841008 | R3P
59.3 Polish_Lesser_Poland
34.2 Greek_North_Aegean
6.5 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Serb_Serbia_West
Distance: 0.9353% / 0.93526146 | R3P
47.0 Italian_Lombardy
39.1 Latvian
13.9 Turk_East_Black_Sea

Target: Serb_Southern_Montenegro
Distance: 0.8541% / 0.85412427 | R3P
49.3 Polish_Silesia
46.2 Italian_Apulia
4.5 Italian_Sardinia

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 0.4238% / 0.42377292 | R3P
49.5 Polish_North_Wielkopolska
31.3 Italian_Veneto
19.2 Polish_Silesia

[Voskos]

Medieval Greeks and their modern descendants.

[Peterski]

Idk much about this, but I guess Macedonians, Sorbians, Czecho-Slovakians, Bulgarians & Northern Russians(with some Ural individuals)

Sorb_Niederlausitz distances using Global25:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Sorb_Niederlausitz


0.01881539
Polish


0.02215482
Ukrainian_Rivne


0.02360879
Ukrainian_Zhytomyr


0.02408517
Ukrainian_Chernihiv


0.02522317
Slovakian


0.02649842
Ukrainian_Lviv


0.02661792
Russian_Belgorod


0.02684454
Ukrainian_Sumy


0.02894551
Russian_Smolensk


0.02977573
Ukrainian_Dnipro


0.03014856
Russian_Voronez


0.03042430
Belarusian


0.03096553
Ukrainian_Zakarpattia


0.03188788
Czech


0.03251820
Russian_Orel


0.03299576
Russian_Kursk


0.03342749
Lithuanian_PA


0.03435604
Moldovan_o


0.03435758
Cossack_Ukrainian


0.03622897
Russian_Kaluga


0.03665267
Lithuanian_VA


0.03745789
German_East


0.03786346
Russian_Ryazan


0.03794417
Russian_Pskov


0.04023662
Polish_Kashubian

</tbody>

[Varda]

Yes.
The fact is that "Illyrians" were not homogenous people, those in northwestern part are different, while those of southeast Illyricum is closer to "Thracians".
In other words, autosomal genetics of pre-Slavic component of Serbs and Croats are different.
That is fact proven by autosomal genetics.

Non-Slavic people who participated in ethnogenesis (who are absorbed by Slavs in the middle age) of Herzegovinian, Krajina and other Serbs who are connected with Herzegovina are Mataruge (E-A18844), Kriči (J2b-M205>Y22066), some unidentified R1b-U152 tribe from East Herzegovina etc.

Mataruge were not Albanian tribe like Albo mytomans wrote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge), their y dna doesn't exist in Albos and in župa Vrm near Trebinje where Mataruge are recorded in the middle age Albos never lived https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/
In 14th century Mataruge had Slavic names: Bilko father Nikoje (1389), Bijeloje father Bogdan (1389), Bogavče father Desimir (1368), Budoš father Mirko (1389), Vitoje father Kostadin (1389), Vladislav father Kučma (1389), Vladoje (1318), Vukota father Stajko (1389) etc. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge_(pleme)#Popis_Mataruga_u_14._st
Recently is discovered that Serbian families Crnomarković and Milaš from Vrlika area in Dalmatia belong to Mataruge clan by y dna, Milaši are famous due to Nikodim Milaš https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikodim_Milaš

Kriči are natives of Durmitor mount in Old Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

[Dušan]

Non-Slavic people who participated in ethnogenesis (who are absorbed by Slavs in the middle age) of Herzegovinian, Krajina and other Serbs who are connected with Herzegovina are Mataruge (E-A18844), Kriči (J2b-M205>Y22066), some unidentified R1b-U152 tribe from East Herzegovina etc.

Mataruge were not Albanian tribe like Albo mytomans wrote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge), their y dna doesn't exist in Albos and in župa Vrm near Trebinje where Mataruge are recorded in the middle age Albos never lived https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A18844/
In 14th century Mataruge had Slavic names: Bilko father Nikoje (1389), Bijeloje father Bogdan (1389), Bogavče father Desimir (1368), Budoš father Mirko (1389), Vitoje father Kodradin (1389), Vladislav father Kučma (1389), Vladoje (1318), Vukota father Stajko (1389) etc. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge_(pleme)#Popis_Mataruga_u_14._st
Recently is discovered that Serbian families Crnomarković and Milaš from Vrlika area in Dalmatia belong to Mataruge clan by y dna, Milaši are famous due to Nikodim Milaš https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikodim_Milaš

Kriči are natives of Durmitor mount in Old Herzegovina https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

These are good examples how population of Illyrian lands were different and not homogeneous.
J2b-M205 didnt exist in northwestern part of Illyric until Serb migrations to Krajina in 15-16th century.

It is rare haplogroup, the most widespread (cca 5%) among Serbs, central Greeks and Greek Cypriots.
Among our Krajina Serbs it is above Serb average.

[Varda]

These are good examples how population of Illyrian lands where different and not homogeneous.
J2b-M205 didnt exist in northwestern part of Illyric until Serb migrations.

It is rare haplogroup, the most widespread (cca 5%) among Serbs, central Greeks and Greek Cypriots.
Among our Krajina Serbs it is above Serb average.

Y dna of Kriči is of East Med/Levantine origin. Their paternal ancestor probably came to the Balkans in late Roman period, maybe he was Roman soldier of Syrian origin. Still Kriči are the oldest known population of Durmitor, older than Drobnjaci.

Medieval Herzegovinian clan Vlahovići is J1-ZS9949 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS9949/
Vlahovići lived between Ljubinje and Stolac in the middle age near Burmazi clan. Vlahovići participated in migrations of Herzegovinian Serbs to northwest in Ottoman time, for example Milorad Dodik and Dalmatian Serb families Tišma and Sinobad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinobad) are J1-ZS9949 and originated from Vlahovići. Zdravko Čolić who is Herzegovinian Serb is also J1-ZS9949, his father is born in village Vlahovići near Ljubinje. This haplo exist among Bosniaks (Nino was J1-ZS9949 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nino_Rešić), and i think among Croatians as well.
This J1-ZS9949 is probably older in Herzegovina than Slavic presence. Most likely came from the Middle East in Roman period (maybe with Jewish merchants), similar as Kriči (J2b-M205). Both areas of Vlahovići and Kriči are deep in former Illyrian lands.

[Jana]

J2b2 L283 and it subcaldes seems to be main Illyrian marker, found in ancient Dalmatian and notably present in Daunians of Apulia, who were of Illyrian origin. Also various branches of R1b L23.
E-V13 seems notably absent so far from Illyrian related regions and samples but it was highly present among Moesians.

Thus Thracians seem to be highly E-V13.

Modern Albanians are not pure Illyrian, their old Balkan ancestry is mix of Illyrians (J2b2, some R1b) and Thracians, maybe some Greeks as well (E-V13) roughly speaking. This would correspond of central Balkans as transitional Illyrio-Thracian zone as origin of proto-Albanian language, far away from the sea which explains lack of native maritime vocabulary in Albanian language.

Roughly speaking ex Dardania and in close contact with proto-Romanian.

[Dušan]

Y dna of Kriči is of East Med/Levantine origin. Their paternal ancestor probably came to the Balkans in late Roman period, maybe he was Roman soldier of Syrian origin. Still Kriči are the oldest known population of Durmitor, older than Drobnjaci.

Medieval Herzegovinian clan Vlahovići is J1-ZS9949 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS9949/
Vlahovići lived between Ljubinje and Stolac in the middle age near Burmazi clan. Vlahovići participated in migrations of Herzegovinian Serbs to northwest in Ottoman time, for example Milorad Dodik and Dalmatian Serb families Tišma and Sinobad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinobad) are J1-ZS9949 and originated from Vlahovići. Zdravko Čolić who is Herzegovinian Serb is also J1-ZS9949, his father is born in village Vlahovići near Ljubinje. This haplo exist among Bosniaks (Nino was J1-ZS9949 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nino_Rešić), and i think among Croatians as well.
This J1-ZS9949 is probably older in Herzegovina than Slavic presence. Most likely came from the Middle East in Roman period (maybe with Jewish merchants), similar as Kriči (J2b-M205). Both areas of Vlahovići and Kriči are deep in former Illyrian lands.

Stearsolina denies the influence of Roman colonization, and based on the presence of these haplogroups, it is clear that it took place.

This is reflected in autosomal genetics, meaning the pre-Slavic part was a little more southern than without Roman colonization, which means the proto-Slavic part is about 60% or more.

[Jana]

There is a possibility that actually the Balkans before the arrival of the Slavs were more west-shifted than modern-day southern Italians, this could also be why Albanians have virtually the same EEF amount as southern Italians despite also having received Slavic input.

Very interesting observation!


And there is also the possibility that proto-Slavs had already mixed before reaching the Balkans, and would therefore look more something like Poles with 42 or 43% Baltic rather than Belarusians.

I'd say they did not, because AV2 in Hungary was Belarusian like, but we'd need more samples.

[Jana]

Stearsolina denies the influence of Roman colonization, and based on the presence of these haplogroups, it is clear that it took place.

This is reflected in autosomal genetics, meaning the pre-Slavic part was a little more southern than without Roman colonization, which means the proto-Slavic part is about 60% or more.

Of course I don't deny, there were Romans there, I just see no evidence Romans replaced native gene pool by 50% and more.
And yes, I absolutely don't buy Serbs are over 60% Slavic on average lol, or even close to that figure.

In my estimates Serbs are barely above half Slavic and Croats bit more, but not much more.
Montenegrins are below half Slavic.

[Crn Volk]

Macedonians.

Yes

[Varda]

Stearsolina denies the influence of Roman colonization, and based on the presence of these haplogroups, it is clear that it took place.

This is reflected in autosomal genetics, meaning the pre-Slavic part was a little more southern than without Roman colonization, which means the proto-Slavic part is about 60% or more.

Of course Roman colonization of Illyrian lands happened. Kriči, Mataruge, Vlahovići, Bukumiri etc. are pre-Slavic population of former Illyrian Herzegovina-Montenegro and they had non-Slavic haplos (Vlahovići and Kriči had Levantine y dna).

These native Vlach tribes of present day Montenegro were probably Dalmatian speakers before slavization, and not East Romance speakers. East Romance speakers were probably Vlach migrants to Montenegro from central and eastern Balkans in the late middle age - Kuči, Bjelopavlići and Piperi.


https://youtu.be/c-V7j4GHww8