Indigenous Balkan I2a1 in southern Albania [Archive] - Page 2 - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Era

03-03-2017, 01:56 PM

Go under "Family and Friends", "DNA Relatives" and under the search box on top there enter just "I2" - you should have plenty like all of us.

This is what I have:

I-L126
I-L126
I-L161.1
I-L161.1
I-L22
I-L22
I-L22
I-L22
I-L38
I-L38
I-L38
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M227
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M26
I-M26
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M438
I-M438
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:00 PM

I'm getting approximately 35-40 I2 y-dna samples out of 714 relatives, a few of these could be the northwestern clade and many the non-"Din" clade.

Era

03-03-2017, 02:00 PM

23andMe is using old nomenclatures and doesn't test for seep subclades.
However, Go to your 23andMe and look how many relatives you have with Y-DNA I2a2 (international version and uses old nomenclature) or I-M423 (US version).

Just one Albo, all greeks and slavs :)
Lilaj

Dionis

Bajevic
B

Demir
TALIC
Kiryazov

Graur
Metzak

Melissinas
KALTSAS
Fetzek
Sofios
Gimon
Petrov
Petrov

Hagias

Maniatty

Theodoropoulos

georgaklis
Maniatty

Alexopoulos
Boudouris
Antal

Chrysostomou
Bozovic
Lalioff
Milanovic

Mayor
Mayor

Dzehverovic
Novakovic

Arapakis

Freese
Mayor

Manolov
Stratos

Bimpasis

Hallert
Mitsianis

Ragea

Bookvich

petousis
Greco

Stevanovic
daniel

constantinescu
Tsirkas
Gercek

Triantaris
Kochuk

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:03 PM

I'm sure most of those relatives have been influenced by J2b2/EV13/R1b sperm.

Dema

03-03-2017, 02:08 PM

This is what I have:

I-L126
I-L126
I-L161.1
I-L161.1
I-L22
I-L22
I-L22
I-L22
I-L38
I-L38
I-L38
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M223
I-M227
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M253
I-M26
I-M26
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M423
I-M438
I-M438
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78
I-P78

I-M423 is Dinaric

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:22 PM

I2a1 isn't Slavic, Southern Slavs just contain a lot of I2a1. Slavic tribal identity formed in a region with pretty much only R1a (unlike Germanic identity, which formed with the hybridisation of I1 and R1b-U106 (primarily at least, so in that respect I1 is Germanic, while I2 is not Slavic)). Anyway, I'm just being picky.

Dema

03-03-2017, 02:24 PM

I have 1400 relatives on 23andme. I cant comprehend the amount of vanity and insecurity you guys must have to actually claim that you have looked at all of them and not a singlle 12a1 on your lists.
I am I2a and i have majority of albos catholics and muslims from montengero also many of them. All relatives of mine according to my list. But i only looked about 10 or 15 of them though
Considering half or more dont have names nor results for you to see?!

No one is projecting insecurity, when i actually first time checked most of my closest relatives i was looking for j2b1 and that was the only purpose, no need to say that i found none :D
Now that Era mentioned i checked again, but i rememer as getting really small amount of I2a1b relatives.

Not a big deal tho : D just playing little with statistics, i would love if you were one of my relatives since i already have 3 Albos from TA.

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 02:24 PM

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:24 PM

I2a1 isn't Slavic, Southern Slavs just contain a lot of I2a1.It was brought to the Balkans by Slavic-speakers 1400 years ago, no "I2a1b-Din" diversity in the Balkans whatsoever.

Drawing-slim

03-03-2017, 02:25 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:26 PM

It was brought to the Balkans by Slavic-speakers according to renowned sources, no "I2a1b-Din" diversity in the Balkans whatsoever.

These renowned sources are wrong, see the extra info I added to my comment.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:26 PM

the rest are all South Slavs and Greeks.Same here.

Scholarios

03-03-2017, 02:27 PM

I am related to only one Albanian(a Kosovar) out of all these people on there.

But I still can't quite figure out how to search for those I2 on DNA tools. Can see them on Gedmatch, and they are all only Anglos etc...

I'm getting approximately 35-40 I2 y-dna samples out of 714 relatives, a few of these could be the northwestern clade and many the non-"Din" clade.

yeah weird mine too. of the ones i found manually at least.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:27 PM

These renowned sources are wrong, see the extra info I added to my comment.Enough proof it didn't exist in the Balkans prior to the Slavic migrations.

Everything else is just bluepill mental masturbation by haplotards.

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:29 PM

Enough proof it didn't exist in the Balkans prior to the Slavic migrations.

Really, what did then - you do realise haplogroup I is pretty much the only indigenous European haplogroup right?

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:31 PM

Really, what did then - you do realise haplogroup I is pretty much the only indigenous European haplogroup right?You are new to DNA-testing it seems.

Check the deep clades, tmrca, read the thread or stfu, I2a1b-Din formed outside the Balkans and has the highest variety across the Vistula(between Poland, Belarus, Ukraine).

Era

03-03-2017, 02:33 PM

But I still can't quite figure out how to search for those I2 on DNA tools.

When you go to DNA relatives, there's a feature in the end, Download aggregated data. Click on that and you'll have an excel file. Then you can sort by ydna.

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:33 PM

You are new to DNA-testing it seems.

Check the deep clades, read the thread or stfu, I2a1b-Din formed outside the Balkans.

I never said it formed in the Balkans, I just said it was indigenous European - my guess would be I2a1 was driven to the Balkans by Indo-European invasions until they hit the Adriatic Sea, at which point they mixed with the mostly R1a invaders. Show me evidence proto-Slavs contained a non-insignificant amount of Y DNA I2a1 - then I'll stfu.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:34 PM

Really, what did then - you do realise haplogroup I is pretty much the only indigenous European haplogroup right?Even the haplotard site Eupedia says the same about I2a1b-Din:

of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:35 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:36 PM

Even the haplotard site Eupedia says the same about I2a1b-Din:

of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Read my most recent comment - also, South Slav tribal formation is clearly to do with the branch of Slavs that essentially chased down I2a.

Dema

03-03-2017, 02:36 PM

Yeah, 3 Slavic y-dna haplogroups in an overwhelming number of 110 Albanian Ghegide samples :D

Dema's J2b1 sticks out like a sore thumb between the 34 J2b2 samples xD

Mtdna may be a different story, but who cares about that?

HaHa i am actually really good camouflaged there, you can barley see that there is j2b1 among so many j2b2 :D I Bet no one even notices that! > : )

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:38 PM

It's not that simple. Check my previous post.

Indo-Europeans integrated other haplogroups in them in Europe. The I2a1b-Din is new in the Balkans, no older sample found.

Dude, I never said it was indigenous to the Balkans, just that it was to Europe. R1a is not. Slavic tribal identity is, but not originally with I2a1.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:38 PM

Read my most recent comment - also, South Slav tribal formation is clearly to do with the branch of Slavs that essentially chased down I2a.
In 600AD tons of Slavs of Northeastern Europe already had plenty of diversified I2a1b clades. Only the I2a1b-Din one reached the Balkans 1400 years ago.

Fucking idiot, Slavs are a combination of I2a1b and R1a cultures. Possibly some more minor influences from later stages. You are talking of 4000+ years ago when no I2a1b sample has been found in the Balkans whatsoever.

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:40 PM

In 600AD tons of Slavs of Northeastern Europe already had plenty of diversified I2a1b clades. Only the I2a1b-Din one reached the Balkans 1400 years ago.

Due to S. Slav migrations that now contained a large amount of I2a1, sure, but obviously proto-Slavic identity predates S. Slav identity. If I2a1 is Slavic, explain it's high concentration in Sardinia?

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:41 PM

Due to S. Slav migrations that now contained a large amount of I2a1, sure. If I2a1 is Slavic, explain it's high concentration in Sardinia?
It's another clade, which split atleast 10 000 years ago, way before Slavs existed.

Philip Latinowitz

03-03-2017, 02:42 PM

I never said it formed in the Balkans, I just said it was indigenous European - my guess would be I2a1 was driven to the Balkans by Indo-European invasions until they hit the Adriatic Sea, at which point they mixed with the mostly R1a invaders. Show me evidence proto-Slavs contained a non-insignificant amount of Y DNA I2a1 - then I'll stfu.

According to Eupedia I2 seem to be Slavic haplogroup after all:

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). No Y-DNA sample from this culture has been tested to date, but as it evolved as an offshoot from the Starčevo–Kőrös–Criş culture, it is likely that I2a was one of its main paternal lineages, and a founder effect could have increased considerably its frequency. The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age and seems to have had intensive contacts with the Steppe culture before the expansion of Yamna to the Balkans and Central Europe (see histories of R1a and R1b). From 3500 BCE, at the onset of the Yamna period in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the Cucuteni-Trypillian people started expanding east into the steppe of what is now western Ukraine, leaving their towns (the largest in the world at the time), and adopting an increasingly nomadic lifestyle like their Yamna neighbours. It can easily be imagined that Cucuteni-Trypillian people became assimilated by the Yamna neighbours and that they spread as a minority lineage alongside haplogroups R1a and R1b as they advanced toward the Baltic with the Corded Ware expansion. Alternatively, I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs.
The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a (small but fast-growing) population.
Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

IDK for credible is this, but sound fairly decent explanation.

safinator

03-03-2017, 02:42 PM

This is the map i made with all the samples i had, more than 50.

I didn't tag names since it would have been a clusterfuck but as a general tendency southerners cluster more south and the most northern shifting as i said before are Albanians from Montegro.

Regarding the map, the most:

NORTHERN : Albanian from Kosovo
WESTERN: Albanian from Montenegro
EASTERN : Albanian from Macedonia
SOUTHERN: Albanian from the south

http://i.imgur.com/AtvElmW.png

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:44 PM

Plus the fact that modern Albanians plot right at Bronze Age Montenegrin sample, explains that I2a1b & R1a high baltic & eastern euro admixtures were never there before.

Dema

03-03-2017, 02:44 PM

How its possible that on map Macedonia is displayed to have less I2a1b then S Albania???

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:46 PM

According to Eupedia I2 seem to be Slavic haplogroup after all:

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). No Y-DNA sample from this culture has been tested to date, but as it evolved as an offshoot from the Starčevo–Kőrös–Criş culture, it is likely that I2a was one of its main paternal lineages, and a founder effect could have increased considerably its frequency. The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age and seems to have had intensive contacts with the Steppe culture before the expansion of Yamna to the Balkans and Central Europe (see histories of R1a and R1b). From 3500 BCE, at the onset of the Yamna period in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the Cucuteni-Trypillian people started expanding east into the steppe of what is now western Ukraine, leaving their towns (the largest in the world at the time), and adopting an increasingly nomadic lifestyle like their Yamna neighbours. It can easily be imagined that Cucuteni-Trypillian people became assimilated by the Yamna neighbours and that they spread as a minority lineage alongside haplogroups R1a and R1b as they advanced toward the Baltic with the Corded Ware expansion. Alternatively, I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs.
The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a (small but fast-growing) population.
Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the CTS10228 (aka CTS5966 or L147.2) subclade, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago.

IDK for credible is this, but sound fairly decent explanation.

Read my previous comment on the distinction between S. Slavs and the original Slavs. I'm not arguing against Eupedia, I'm just saying Slavic tribal identity formed more or less in isolation of any real presence of I2a1, and so I2a1 cannot be considered a Slavic haplogroup - it's like considering R1a an Afghani haplogroup.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:47 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:48 PM

It's another clade, which split atleast 10 000 years ago, way before Slavs existed.

Okay sure, now we're getting into really specific subclades. From what you're telling me, you believe that Slavs originally contained a large amount of I2a1 (a cousin clade to the one in Sardinia), would that be fair?

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:49 PM

Okay sure, now we're getting into really specific subclades. From what you're telling me, you believe that Slavs originally contained a large amount of I2a1 (a cousin clade to the one in Sardinia), would that be fair?You're tying haplos to identities yourself. I2a was found among Neolithic farmers only so far.

Dema

03-03-2017, 02:49 PM

Okay sure, now we're getting into really specific subclades. From what you're telling me, you believe that Slavs originally contained a large amount of I2a1 (a cousin clade to the one in Sardinia), would that be fair?

No its was more R1a before or they were equal, I2a din took over later.

Philip Latinowitz

03-03-2017, 02:50 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:50 PM

There was no such thing as a "Slav" before I2a1b was in the genepool.

When are you proposing "Slavs" came into existence - how soon after the Indo-European invasions? This is the question at the heart of our differences, I'm pretty sure.

Drawing-slim

03-03-2017, 02:50 PM

My top relatives location & birth-places
Does everyone gets biggest numbers from USA?

United States of America (129)
Greece (71)
Serbia (46)
Montenegro (45)
Albania (36)
Turkey (32)
Italy (27)
Croatia (24)
Bosnia and Herzegovina (20)
Bulgaria (18)
Macedonia (14)
Kosovo (13)
Romania (13)
Germany (10)
Poland (9)
Canada (8)
United Kingdom (7)
Russia (6)
Austria (5)
Czech Republic (5)
Reset

Surname
top three last names have not change all this time.
Smith (11)
Williams (8)
Brown (7)
Clark (7)
Jones (7)
Hilaris (5)
Lee (5)
Martin (5)
Miller (5)
Parker (5)
Reed (5)
Thomas (5)
Wilson (5)
Davlantis (4)
Day (4)
Fisher (4)
Hall (4)
Hicks (4)
Holmes (4)
Hughes (4)

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:51 PM

No its was more R1a before or they were equal, I2a din took over later.

I'm just saying what I think he thinks, not what I think.

Dema

03-03-2017, 02:53 PM

How its possible that on map Macedonia is displayed to have less I2a1b then S Albania???

????

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 02:54 PM

There was no such thing as a "Slav" before I2a1b was in the genepool.

Agreed, but I think that majority of I2a1b absorption came after Slavic identity formed. I believe Slavic identity formed before Southern Slavic identity formed (which really should be a no-brainer), and that the vast majority of I2a1b absorption occurred between the formation of the original Slavic identity and the formation of the more recent Southern Slavic identity. How else do you explain the large discrepancy in I2a1b concentration between Southern Slavs and their Eastern cousins (who clearly predate the Southern Slavs)?

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:55 PM

????Because haplogroups counterweigh one another and also founder effect, Monkeydonia would have a higher R1a than Tosks.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 02:58 PM

Agreed, but I think that majority of I2a1b absorption came after Slavic identity formed.Anyway, I2a1b-Din migrated to the Balkans and the result of it's high concentration in Bosnia is the founder effect(no variety of I2a1b clades there whatsoever).

There's a huge genetic difference between South Slavs and Paleo-Balkanites(Albanians, Greeks) despite being neighbors today. It being the huge amount of Baltic and East Euro admixture among South Slavs which pulls them strongly northeast. R1a itself did not bring this huge admixture % alone, I2a1b-"Din" assisted in that.

Albanians for example are often northwest shifted with low northeastern shift.

Drawing-slim

03-03-2017, 03:00 PM

I think the best indicator of your blood/race/autosomal, is based on majority & locations + surnames of your relatives.
Look up my previews post above and post yours

Dema

03-03-2017, 03:01 PM

Because haplogroups counterweigh one another, Monkeydonia would have a higher R1a than Tosks.

Last thing we need is Tosks to have higher R1a also then S Albania. I cant agree that its higher I2a1b or R1a in Tosks then Macedonians.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/macedonia/default.aspx?section=yresults

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:02 PM

Last thing we need is Tosks to have higher R1a also then S Albania. I cant agree that its higher I2a1b or R1a in Tosks then Macedonians.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/macedonia/default.aspx?section=yresultsEupedia haplo percentages are strongly outdated/wrong, maps are wrong and done in paint by Maciamo.

Philip Latinowitz

03-03-2017, 03:02 PM

Agreed, but I think that majority of I2a1b absorption came after Slavic identity formed. I believe Slavic identity formed before Southern Slavic identity formed (which really should be a no-brainer), and that the vast majority of I2a1b absorption occurred between the formation of the original Slavic identity and the formation of the more recent Southern Slavic identity. How else do you explain the large discrepancy in I2a1b concentration between Southern Slavs and their Eastern cousins (who clearly predate the Southern Slavs)?

Wtf, ''Southern Slavic'' tribal identity is not younger than those of other Slavs- Croats, Serbs, and Bulgarians has tribal names and duchies/Kingdoms before majority of other Slavs. Please don't troll dude.

Dema

03-03-2017, 03:03 PM

Eupedia haplo percentages are strongly outdated/wrong, maps are wrong.

Ok i linked to you also Macedonian FTDNA project that also shows I2a as largest group at Macedonians.

Show me some study then that would confirm that Tosks have higher I2a then Macedonians.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:05 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 03:09 PM

Wtf, ''Southern Slavic'' tribal identity is not younger than those of other Slavs- Croats, Serbs, and Bulgarians has tribal names and duchies/Kingdoms before majority of other Slavs. Please don't troll dude.

Are you saying you don't believe Southern Slavs branched off from an earlier group of Slavs?

Trojet

03-03-2017, 03:10 PM

Read my previous comment on the distinction between S. Slavs and the original Slavs. I'm not arguing against Eupedia, I'm just saying Slavic tribal identity formed more or less in isolation of any real presence of I2a1, and so I2a1 cannot be considered a Slavic haplogroup - it's like considering R1a an Afghani haplogroup.

And this is the problem you're having not understanding the subclades. We're not talking about all I2a1 which is at least 10, 000 years old and includes the early split of Sardinian M26, we're talking about the CTS10228 aka Dinaric subclade found in the Balkans, which is only about 2200 years old at the time the Slavs existed and started expanding afterwards.

Dema

03-03-2017, 03:10 PM

I'm not claiming that. But it's 5-10 times higher(around Korca) than it is among Ghegides. - Again, according to Eupediafail maps xD

I think there is no chance that S Albania can have higher I2a then Macedonia. Especially not as it is displayed on map, that there is such a large area in S Albania that has more I2a then anywhere in Macedonia. Sounds like BS.

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 03:11 PM

Look, the original Slavs would have contained some I2a1b, but not that much, and certainly nowhere near as much before they picked up a huge amount from the Slavic migrations into the Balkans.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:12 PM

Wherever you find high I2a1b-Din and R1a in the Balkans, the R1b-L23, J2b2, J2a and EV13 will be lower.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:12 PM

Look, the original Slavs would have contained some I2a1b, but not that much, and certainly nowhere near as much before they picked up a huge amount from the Slavic migrations into the Balkans.Founder effect, genetic drift.

Philip Latinowitz

03-03-2017, 03:13 PM

Are you saying you don't believe Southern Slavs branched off from an earlier group of Slavs?

Ofcourse they did. Like all other Slavic groups. Or you think proto-Slavs had tribal name like Russians ? :D

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 03:14 PM

Founder effect, genetic drift.

So you think that most of the I2a1(b) in the Balkans came with the Slavic migrations, not despite it?

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:14 PM

So you think that most of the I2a1(b) in the Balkans came with the Slavic migrations, not despite it?All of it did. Look at the recent previous posts of mine.

Bronze Age Montenegrin sample plots inside the Modern Albanian cluster, no I2a1b and R1a at play, since it would pull them way further northeast, not to mention the mtdna the Slavs brought to Balkans.

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 03:19 PM

Ofcourse they did. Like all other Slavic groups. Or you think proto-Slavs had tribal name like Russians ? :D

Lol obz not, but Russians (more specifically Belorussians) are a much better proxy for the original Slavs than, say, Bosnians.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:20 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 03:21 PM

All of it did. Look at the recent previous posts of mine.

Bronze Age Montenegrin sample plots inside the Modern Albanian cluster, no I2a1b and R1a at play, since it would pull them way further northeast, not to mention the mtdna the Slavs brought to Balkans.

That is a pretty damn massive founder effect if so, I'm going to look this up, but I'm sceptical.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:23 PM

That is a pretty damn massive founder effect if so, I'm going to look this up, but I'm sceptical.EV13 had the same effect in Kosovo Albanians, despite J2b2 being the biggest majority among Gheg Albanian highlander tribes.

Philip Latinowitz

03-03-2017, 03:24 PM

Lol obz not, but Russians (more specifically Belorussians) are a much better proxy for the original Slavs than, say, Bosnians.

Belorusians yes. Russians, nope, if you observe how much non-Slavic territory they conquered in their expansion, much more than South Slavs did. I wouldn't be suprised to find fully Siberian native Russian speakers.
Btw, ''Bosnian'' is not a tribal but geographic name, so your comparison isn't valid.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:24 PM

Belorusians yes. Russians, nope, if you observe how much non-Slavic territory they conquered in their expansion, much more than South Slavs did. I wouldn't be suprised to find fully Siberian native Russian speakers.
Btw, ''Bosnian'' is not a tribal but geographic name, so your comparison isn't valid.Belarus/Poland/Northern Ukraine prolly most.

Philip Latinowitz

03-03-2017, 03:26 PM

Belarus/Poland/Northern Ukraine prolly most.

Agreed. Most of the historical and archeological evidence points there.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:26 PM

Albanians are subhuman retards and a disgrace to Europeans and people of European descent across the globe - keep them contained, and limit expansion and emigration.Now retarded kike, you can stop pestering me with your trolling attempts.

The Jews that were saved in Albania should be rolling in their graves thanks to subhumans like you.

Trojet

03-03-2017, 03:28 PM

Hamlet

03-03-2017, 03:29 PM

Xhak, apologise...

From Wikipedia:

I-L621

I-L621 is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%) in Croats.[3] There is also a high concentration of I-L621 in north-east Romania and Moldova. Several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region. Peričić et al. for instance places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic”.[13][14][15] Decidedly, the Slavic population can be divided into two genetically distinct groups: one encompassing all Western-Slavic (Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, etc.), Eastern-Slavic (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, etc.) and a few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), characterized by Haplogroup R1a, and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs (Serbs, Bosniaks, southern Croats, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Bulgarians) but also the non-Slavic Romanians, characterized by Haplogroup I2a1b2 (I-L621). According to Rebała et al., this phenomenon is explained by "contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs.[16] It is attributed to the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in what is now modern day Ukraine, Romania and Moldova.[17]

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:29 PM

It's hard to see there, but anyways here is where I am:
http://i64.tinypic.com/2415abk.jpg

We are close man :)

Wrong

03-03-2017, 03:30 PM

Xhak, apologise...

From Wikipedia:
[17]Nordtvedt > 10+ year old wiki source

Fuck off now, kike. I explained how no "slavic" extra-admixture was present in ancient times.

Drawing-slim

03-03-2017, 03:42 PM

And this is the problem you're having not understanding the subclades. We're not talking about all I2a1 which is at least 10, 000 years old and includes the early split of Sardinian M26, we're talking about the CTS10228 aka Dinaric subclade found in the Balkans, which is only about 2200 years old at the time the Slavs existed and started expanding afterwards.
Tribecode gives me I2a1b3a and does not give me that exact CTS10228 subclade?!

Trojet

03-03-2017, 03:54 PM

Tribecode gives me I2a1b3a and does not give me that exact CTS10228 subclade?!

That means it tested all the way to I-L621 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/) level and didn't test for CTS10228 which is its subclade ;)

EDIT: if you'd like to test further and don't want to do Y-DNA37 at FTDNA or Y37 at YSEQ (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=34&osCsid=ef9e3abb4df0c96d91ac2c97d77ac62d), I would consider the YSEQ I2a-M423 SNP Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=11788&osCsid=ef9e3abb4df0c96d91ac2c97d77ac62d) which will test even below CTS10228, but mind that most likely you will fall somewhere below it.

Drawing-slim

03-03-2017, 03:57 PM

That means it tested all the way to I-L621 (http://https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/) level and didn't test for CTS10228 which is its subclade ;)thats correct. Thnx

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 04:05 PM

Ok i linked to you also Macedonian FTDNA project that also shows I2a as largest group at Macedonians.

Show me some study then that would confirm that Tosks have higher I2a then Macedonians.

Tosks haven't tested much, there are barely few at ftdna. The scientific studies we have seen so far do suggest that CTS10228 and R1a are well represented among them. Now if that was a sample bias, can't really say, and it might not be because there are few studies that basically reported almost exactly the same thing. Of course to really know in which region in the south they peak or are more represented we need Tosks to start testing through our project - the only way we can get to the bottom of it so we don't have to rely on few scientific studies (like we have done with Ghegs so far).

You were singeling out Skrapar, Laberia: Two fellas who have tested from there, Geni and another guy at 23andme, are R1b and related to me and other Albanians. So it doesn't look like Skrapar was one of their settlements, no I2a or R1a from there as of yet.

Dema

03-03-2017, 04:18 PM

Tosks haven't tested much, there are barely few at ftdna. The scientific studies we have seen so far do suggest that CTS10228 and R1a are well represented among them. Now if that was a sample bias, can't really say, and it might not be because there are few studies that basically reported almost exactly the same thing. Of course to really know in which region in the south they peak or are more represented we need Tosks to start testing through our project - the only way we can get to the bottom of it so we don't have to rely on few scientific studies (like we have done with the Ghegs so far).

You were pointing out Skrapar, Laberia: Two fellas who have tested from there, Geni and another guy at 23andme, are R1b and related to me and other Albanians. So it doesn't look like Skrapar was one of their settlements, no I2a or R1a from there as of yet.

Yes but from what i seen Macedonia has at least 20% I2a, and also based on colors they are representing like there is 25 - 30 per cent of I2a in large part of S Albania. Also more then anywhere in Macedonia. This just seem unbelievable.

Laberia

03-03-2017, 04:20 PM

Labëria bro, I really don't want to be involved in this topic, but Albs like you who are so immature regarding genetics, yet choose to engage in this topic and stick to their theories are really pushing me. There is a lot more data on I2a1-CTS10228 aka Dinaric now then there was just two years ago.
It's not just Sarno et al. 2015, it's also Ferri et al 2010. What do you want, a study that will test every single Albanian. Mind that we now have data from our own project also.

Trojet, duke diskutuar mësohet, sidomos kur ke të bësh me këta lloj ekspertësh.
Nuk pres që ç'do person të testohet gjenetikisht, mbase në një të ardhme mund të jetë diçka e detyrueshme në letërnjoftimet e ç'do personi, mbase.
Unë mendoj se ju jeni personi më i përgatitur për problemet gjenetike nga shqiptarët, kështu që po shfrytëzoj rastin që të pyes disa gjëra.
Nga eksperienca juaj, sa mund që të jetë numri i shqiptarëve nga Jugu që janë testuar në këto projektet e mëdha? Përafërsisht nëse nuk ke një shifër të saktë.
A ka ndonjë informacion se nga cilat zona të jugut janë këta njerëz dhe në cilat zona është më i lartë përqëndrimi i këtyre haplogroupeve?
Ne jemi duke diskutuar për kombe dhe grupime etnike. Shkenca që merret me këtë punë është Historia. Në dijeninë time asnjë historian serioz nuk merr në konsideratë gjatë punës së tij gjenetikën. Ke ndonjë shpjegim për këtë?
Faleminderit.

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 04:30 PM

Yes but from what i seen Macedonia has at least 20% I2a, and also based on colors they are representing like there is 25 - 30 per cent of I2a in large part of S Albania. Also more then anywhere in Macedonia. This just seem unbelievable.

Eupedia maps shouldn't be taken seriously when discussing specific regions, they are just 'general' information based on scientific studies. To really understant our ydna in more detial we need folks to test, simple as that.

Dema

03-03-2017, 04:37 PM

Eupedia maps shouldn't be taken seriously when discussing specific regions, they are just 'general' information based on scientific studies. To really understant our ydna in more detial we need folks to test, simple as that.

Yes that is exactly why i pointed out things like this. Also we know Hercegovina is hot spot with sometimes 70% and its not same as most of Dalmatia as it is shown here.
I am not trying to discredit Eupedia, just give them a motivation to make more accurate maps and update their old ones. Details like this are very important.
After all this thread is opened because of detail like that, which seem to be incorrect.

Laberia

03-03-2017, 04:37 PM

Tosks haven't tested much, there are barely few at ftdna. The scientific studies we have seen so far do suggest that CTS10228 and R1a are well represented among them. Now if that was a sample bias, can't really say, and it might not be because there are few studies that basically reported almost exactly the same thing. Of course to really know in which region in the south they peak or are more represented we need Tosks to start testing through our project - the only way we can get to the bottom of it so we don't have to rely on few scientific studies (like we have done with Ghegs so far).

You were singeling out Skrapar, Laberia: Two fellas who have tested from there, Geni and another guy at 23andme, are R1b and related to me and other Albanians. So it doesn't look like Skrapar was one of their settlements, no I2a or R1a from there as of yet.

Duhet që ta lexosh me vëmendje atë pjesën e Skraparit. Njihet që në Skrapar ka pasur Sclavonia. Po të shikosh hartën gjeografike, është ky zinxhir malesh nga Skrapari në Opar, janë pak a shumë e njëjta zonë. Unë thashë që një pjesë e këtyre sllavëve u mblodhën nga bizantinët. Përderisa Muzaka përmend sllavë në Opar, dhe ne e dimë që ata janë sllavë të asimiluar, dhe nuk përmend në Skrapar, do të thotë që këta të Skraparit duhet të jenë larguar nga bizantinët. A kanë mbetur disa? Po më pyete mua që e njoh disi atë zonë unë them po. Tani me dy veta që thua ti që janë testuar, çfarë përfundimi mund të nxjerrësh?

Laberia

03-03-2017, 04:42 PM

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 04:45 PM

Duhet që ta lexosh me vëmendje atë pjesën e Skraparit. Njihet që në Skrapar ka pasur Sclavonia. Po të shikosh hartën gjeografike, është ky zinxhir malesh nga Skrapari në Opar, janë pak a shumë e njëjta zonë. Unë thashë që një pjesë e këtyre sllavëve u mblodhën nga bizantinët. Përderisa Muzaka përmend sllavë në Opar, dhe ne e dimë që ata janë sllavë të asimiluar, dhe nuk përmend në Skrapar, do të thotë që këta të Skraparit duhet të jenë larguar nga bizantinët. A kanë mbetur disa? Po më pyete mua që e njoh disi atë zonë unë them po. Tani me dy veta që thua ti që janë testuar, çfarë përfundimi mund të nxjerrësh?

Kronikat historike nuk jane gjithmone te verteta, duhet m'i marr pak me rezerve. Ata dy te testuarit normal qe nuk e vertetojne se nuk ka sllav te asimiluar aty, kete pune vetem ata vendasit aty mund te spjegojne me mire se si eshte situata atje, por deri diku e tregojne qe ai vendanim aty eshte i banuar me Shqiptare; sepse Geni eshte R1b-BY611 si une, edhe ai tjetri ne 23andme duhet te jete po i kesaj linje, qe eshte linje shume e perhapur nen Shqiptar, si ne Gege ashtu edhe nen Toske, Arberesh dhe Arvanit.

Laberia

03-03-2017, 04:49 PM

Ata dy te testuarit normal qe nuk e vertetojne se nuk ka sllav te asimiluar aty, kete pune vetem ata vendasit aty mund te spjegojne me mire se si eshte puna aty, por deri diku e tregojne qe ai vendanim aty eshte i banuar me Shqiptare; sepse Geni eshte R1b-BY611 si une, edhe ai tjetri ne 23andme duhet te jete po i kesaj linje, qe eshte linje shume e perhapur nen Shqiptar, si ne Gege ashtu edhe nen Toske, Arberesh dhe Arvanit.

Nuk ka një memorie historike te popullsia për këtë gjë. Përderisa as Muzaka që nuk e përmend, do të thotë që janë larguar. Por po ta përsëris, një farë influence duket me sy. Në historinë e Shqipërisë, përmendet si skllavonia për thuhet që u grumbulluan nga bizantinët dhe u dërguan diku tjetër, në Azi ka shumë mundësi.

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 04:57 PM

Nuk ka një memorie historike te popullsia për këtë gjë. Përderisa as Muzaka që nuk e përmend, do të thotë që janë larguar. Por po ta përsëris, një farë influence duket me sy. Në historinë e Shqipërisë, përmendet si skllavonia për thuhet që u grumbulluan nga bizantinët dhe u dërguan diku tjetër, në Azi ka shumë mundësi.

Ajo eshte evidente per sa kame pare une, me Tosket te testuar qe kame komunikuar nuk e ndjekin prejardhjen e tyre me large se deri tek katragjyshi. Mundet te jete vendanim i perzier, nuk e di as nuk mund ta them qe eshte per momentin kur gjenetika e tregon te kunderten.

Trojet

03-03-2017, 04:59 PM

Trojet, duke diskutuar mësohet, sidomos kur ke të bësh me këta lloj ekspertësh.
Nuk pres që ç'do person të testohet gjenetikisht, mbase në një të ardhme mund të jetë diçka e detyrueshme në letërnjoftimet e ç'do personi, mbase.
Unë mendoj se ju jeni personi më i përgatitur për problemet gjenetike nga shqiptarët, kështu që po shfrytëzoj rastin që të pyes disa gjëra.
Nga eksperienca juaj, sa mund që të jetë numri i shqiptarëve nga Jugu që janë testuar në këto projektet e mëdha? Përafërsisht nëse nuk ke një shifër të saktë.
A ka ndonjë informacion se nga cilat zona të jugut janë këta njerëz dhe në cilat zona është më i lartë përqëndrimi i këtyre haplogroupeve?
Ne jemi duke diskutuar për kombe dhe grupime etnike. Shkenca që merret me këtë punë është Historia. Në dijeninë time asnjë historian serioz nuk merr në konsideratë gjatë punës së tij gjenetikën. Ke ndonjë shpjegim për këtë?
Faleminderit.

Nëse don me i diskutuar këto gjëra më detajisht, eja te Foleja.
Në forume publike si ku nuk do hyja në këto detaje.

Laberia

03-03-2017, 05:02 PM

Ajo eshte evidente per sa kam pare une, me Tosket te testuar qe kam komunikuar nuk e ndjekin prejardhjen e tyre me large se deri tek katragjyshi. Mundet te jete vendanim i perzier, nuk e di as nuk mund ta them qe eshte per momentin kur gjenetika e tregon te kunderten.

Unë e di gjenealogjinë e fisit tim deri në shtatë breza, me emra të gjithë. Ne jemi një fis, si fshat. Kanë ardhur gjatë komunizmit disa familje, po pakë janë, një pjesë u largua mbas 90-ës.

Laberia

03-03-2017, 05:03 PM

Nëse don me i diskutuar këto gjëra më detajisht, eja te Foleja.
Në forume publike si ku nuk do hyja në këto detaje.

Do të lutesha të gjeje pesë minuta dhe të më ktheje një përgjigje.

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 05:17 PM

Unë e di gjenealogjinë e fisit tim deri në shtatë breza, me emra të gjithë. Ne jemi një fis, si fshat. Kanë ardhur gjatë komunizmit disa familje, po pakë janë, një pjesë u largua mbas 90-ës.

Ok, testohu pra e ta shofim se nga e keni origjinen. Eshte e kote me thy dhame ne kete teme per mendjen teme kur as nuk ke iden cilit halpogrup ti dhe fisi yt i takon.

Laberia

03-03-2017, 05:20 PM

Ok, testohu pra e ta shofim se nga e keni origjinen. Eshte e kote me thy dhame ne kete teme per mendjen teme kur as nuk ke iden cilit halpogrup ti dhe fisi yt i takon.

Do testohem, të kam thënë.
Tani ky thread u bë për troll. Dhe këtu nuk po diskutohet fisi im, por jugu i vendit.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 05:27 PM

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204504-I2a1b-quot-Din-quot-Slavic-or-Paleolithic-Balkan

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 05:53 PM

Do testohem, të kam thënë.
Tani ky thread u bë për troll. Dhe këtu nuk po diskutohet fisi im, por jugu i vendit.

Per troll edhe eshte hapur mbasi une ju pergjegja atij tek ajo tema tjeter per Arvanit me fakte.Ok nuk ka problem, vetem e thashe mbasi fisi juaj eshte pjese e jugut te vendit....(popullorqe thojne "Gur me gur bahet muri").

Voskos

03-03-2017, 06:49 PM

In the defense of Laberia, I have yet to see a Lab I2a result. all studies have been on tosks(not Labs) so far

Skerdilaid

03-03-2017, 07:06 PM

In the defense of Laberia, I have yet to see a Lab I2a result. all studies have been on tosks(not Labs) so far

Ture, I only know three tested Labs, 2 are R1b-L23, one E-V13.

Lek

03-03-2017, 07:13 PM

I1 in Ghegs is more common than I2a.

I'm guessing labs been very isolated.

Scholarios

03-03-2017, 11:32 PM

In the defense of Laberia, I have yet to see a Lab I2a result. all studies have been on tosks(not Labs) so far

That is consistent with the theory of Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups.

catgeorge

03-03-2017, 11:41 PM

Laberians

http://argophilia.com/albania/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Iso.jpg

https://shkodraloce.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/veshje-burrash-em-fustanelledh-dhe-poture_laberi.jpg

http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/14565045_1802564786694648_3352768345907658752_n.jp g

catgeorge

03-03-2017, 11:46 PM

They look like J2b2 and EV 13

Wrong

03-03-2017, 11:46 PM

http://dialects.albanianlanguage.net/images/map2_dialects-2-lightbox.jpg

Wrong

03-03-2017, 11:47 PM

They look like J2b2 and EV 13You can't "look" like a haplogroup.

Your posts are one of the most braindead on TA.

catgeorge

03-03-2017, 11:49 PM

You can't "look" like a haplogroup.

I think I can comfortabaly spot between an I1 and I2 if someone made me select. Same with R1b and R1a if I had to make a choice. So I think it is very possible.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 11:49 PM

I think I can comfotabaly spot between an I1 and I2 if someone made me select. Same with R1b and R1a if I had to make a choice. So I think it is very possible.You can't. Move on. Labs have a good amount of R1b.

catgeorge

03-03-2017, 11:52 PM

You can't. Move on. Labs have a good amount of R1b.

Source? That looks very J2b2

Wrong

03-03-2017, 11:52 PM

Source? That looks very J2b2
Autosomal admixture > Haplogroups in terms of looks

Y-dna is like 0.6% of the entire DNA

Coolguy1

03-03-2017, 11:53 PM

They look darker than regular Tosks.

Wrong

03-03-2017, 11:55 PM

They look darker than regular Tosks.Photos lack white balance in the lighting though, I guess that is considered.

I haven't seen many Labs myself, would rather look at modern photos on the streets or something.

Coolguy1

03-04-2017, 12:03 AM

Photos lack white balance in the lighting though, I guess that is considered.

I haven't seen many Labs myself, would rather look at modern photos on the streets or something.

A Lab woman used to work for my grandfather. Many Labs came to my father's village in search of work and Ive seen quite a few of them. To me they looked dark but stuck out like a sore thumb as Albanians amongst Peloponnesians.

Laberia

03-04-2017, 02:53 AM

That is consistent with the theory of Labs moving South later than other Toskid groups.

Seriously, you have a theory?????
This is a great news Scholarios. Well, hope you will elaborate this theory.
BTW, is this your theory in accordance with the theory of your prefered author Hammond, or is time to declare Hammond idiot like all the authors from antiquity until middle XX century?

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 03:16 AM

Seriously, you have a theory?????
This is a great news Scholarios. Well, hope you will elaborate this theory.
BTW, is this your theory in accordance with the theory of your prefered author Hammond, or is time to declare Hammond idiot like all the authors from antiquity until middle XX century?

As regards Labs, that's not my theory , but that of a wise old Kurveleshiote. As far as all Tosks being newcomers, well that is more or less mainstream history, as elaborated previously. (including Jochalas).

Laberia

03-04-2017, 04:14 AM

As regards Labs, that's not my theory , but that of a wise old Kurveleshiote. As far as all Tosks being newcomers, well that is more or less mainstream history, as elaborated previously. (including Jochalas).

Well, Albanians are autocthonus in Epir.
What is this Kurveleshiote?
What's the opinion of Hammond about this?
You remember last time when you disappeared from the forum, using an Albanian expression, like the pee of the chicken? We discussed exactly this topic and you failed.

Drawing-slim

03-04-2017, 04:53 AM

Autosomal admixture > Haplogroups in terms of looks

Y-dna is like 0.6% of the entire DNA
Actually all of it including all autosomal dna tests are a joke. Its like you write a book about your whole life and someone tries interpreting it by reading only one word per page. At best two words per page. Onless you pay a lot of money and have a geneticist explaining everything in detail i see it as a waste of time and money. Having fun with it its all good but taking it to heart its a waste. Which is why i lost interest awhile ago.

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 04:54 AM

Well, Albanians are autocthonus in Epir.
What is this Kurveleshiote?
What's the opinion of Hammond about this?
You remember last time when you disappeared from the forum, using an Albanian expression, like the pee of the chicken? We discussed exactly this topic and you failed.

Laberia - you really demonstrate that the low IQ of Balkan people is not a matter of genetics or nutrition or lack of schooling - but just sheer willpower . You have to * want * to be as retarded as you act. There is no other explanation for someone to be so proud of their own obnoxious ignorance.

Now please, stop quoting me. I'm satisfied that you took the bait over and over in this thread, but you can go back to selling marijuana in Italy , you shiftless lowlife.

Profileid

03-04-2017, 05:00 AM

Laberia - you really demonstrate that the low IQ of Balkan people is not a matter of genetics or nutrition or lack of schooling - but just sheer willpower . You have to * want * to be as retarded as you act. There is no other explanation for someone to be so proud of their own obnoxious ignorance.

Now please, stop quoting me. I'm satisfied that you took the bait over and over in this thread, but you can go back to selling marijuana in Italy , you shiftless lowlife.

hahaha
Laberia is my homeboy. But I love how you put that man.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 11:15 AM

Laberia - you really demonstrate that the low IQ of Balkan people is not a matter of genetics or nutrition or lack of schooling - but just sheer willpower . You have to * want * to be as retarded as you act. There is no other explanation for someone to be so proud of their own obnoxious ignorance.

Now please, stop quoting me. I'm satisfied that you took the bait over and over in this thread, but you can go back to selling marijuana in Italy , you shiftless lowlife.

The HellenoSlavoArvanitoVlachoTurk's head was created to butt heads in the mountains and mudwrestle. He puts his whole pride and person into his arguments and into his overall beliefs. When he argues he basically views it as a fight, where only might is right.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 11:22 AM

The Lab look that sticks out the most is "compressed" look. Everything is short about this type of look, but not in the least graceful and refined manner possible. It's like a corruption of the Kukesian type.

Their faces look like they didn't grow outward but inward. Overall, though, in Vlona they look more like Kosovars than your average subhumanid Tironse does.

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 11:27 AM

The Lab look that sticks out the most is "compressed" look. Everything is short about this type of look, but not in the least graceful and refined manner possible. Their faces look like they didn't grow outward but inward. Overall, though, in Vlona they look more like Kosovars than your average subhumanid Tironse does.

https://d32swstyppi9nx.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/nightmarefish8.jpg

Kinda like this.

Also appreciate that Ghegs call it "Vlone" rather than "Vlore" since the pronunciation wasn't mediated through Slavs of Vagenetia in the case of Ghegs.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 11:31 AM

https://d32swstyppi9nx.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/nightmarefish8.jpg

Also appreciate that Ghegs call it "Vlone" rather than "Vlore" since the pronunciation wasn't mediated through Slavs of Vagenetia in the case of Ghegs.

Why would it be mediated through these Slavs? I always assumed it was due to the rhotacism in Albanian.

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 11:39 AM

Why would it be mediated through these Slavs? I always assumed it was due to the rhotacism in Albanian.

Actually, you are correct. I was forgetting that Albanian rhotacism can operate on its own without Slavs. The term "Laberia" is what I am thinking of. (Bulgarians changed Albania>Labania, then Tosk rhotacism changed Labania>Laberia just like Vlone>Vlore). It is still cool though that Ghegs pronounce it closer to the old Doric manner.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 11:50 AM

Actually, you are correct. I was forgetting that Albanian rhotacism can operate on its own without Slavs. The term "Laberia" is what I am thinking of. (Bulgarians changed Albania>Labania, then Tosk rhotacism changed Labania>Laberia just like Vlone>Vlore). It is still cool though that Ghegs pronounce it closer to the old Doric manner.

What's the connection between Slavs and Albanian rhotacism? Sincerely curious. And I didn't know Laberia is just a Bulgarian-Slavic corruption of Albania. Though I wonder why only a specific group of Albanians should be Labs.

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 12:26 PM

What's the connection between Slavs and Albanian rhotacism? Sincerely curious. And I didn't know Laberia is just a Bulgarian-Slavic corruption of Albania. Though I wonder why only a specific group of Albanians should be Labs.

There's no real connection between Tosk rhotacism and Slavic one, Just i confused the two issues here. ( I say Tosk here because such phenomenon apparently didn't affect Gheg pronunciation of the word).

Yes, I guess Greeks/Romaioi were calling this area as "Albania" and Bulgarians corrupted it. Well, only Albanians in South had contact with Bulgarians- and the ones around Teplene- Sarande preserved it as a self-identifier. I suppose. It is just that Ghegs did not operate the rhotacism or did not have direct contact with Serbs- or most likely, Albanians were living in those areas in the North before Serbs arrived there, which (I think) we can't say for Labs/Tosks in the South.

Speaking of which, I guess you know the Serbs had some similar affect on this word: (https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2Wc-DWRzoeIC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=kingdom+of+raban+albania&source=bl&ots=44NvfIwBR9&sig=QmQ44xuIOVa-ZBgMlqg2If5WpJE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja6JPs-LzSAhWJ2LwKHe6OCH0Q6AEIPDAH#v=onepage&q=kingdom%20of%20raban%20albania&f=false)

И пошто је обновио очеву дедовину и још више утврдио Божјом помоћу и својом мудрошћу даном му од Бога, и подиже пропалу своју дедовину и придоби од поморске земље Зету са градовима, а од Рабна оба Пилота, а од грчке земље патково, све Хвосно и Подримље, Кострц, Дршковину, Ситницу, Лаб, Липљан, Глбочицу, Реке, Ушку и Поморавље, Загрлату, Левче, Белицу. То све мудрошћу и трудом својим све ово придоби што му је припадало од српске земље, а одузето му некада насиљем од своје дедовине

And after he had restored his father's patrimony and fortified it with God's help, and with his God given wisdom, he resurrected his grandfather's land and he conquered: from Littoral land: Zeta with its cities, from Raban[Albania]: both districts of Pilot, and from the Greek land: Patkovo, all Hvosno and Podrimlje, Kostrc, Draškovina, Sitnica, Lab, Lipljan, Glbočica, Reke, Uska and Pomoravlje, Zagrlata, Levče, Belica. All that areas, which belonged to him in Serbian land and were taken by force from his patrimony, he recaptured with his wisdom and effort.

From Life of Saint Simeon (https://orthodoxwiki.org/Simeon_the_Myrrh-flowing)

Raban is the West-Central form of the word, Laban the Eastern grouping's pronunciation. What affect this had on the the endonymy of Albanians isn't clear to me, or how it might be related to the fact that Albanians do not call themselves any form of this word today...

ilir

03-04-2017, 05:19 PM

I am happy you are enjoying it guys.

By the way when you do it alone i know it's called "intellectual masturbation" but when you are a couple what can it be the proper definition??

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 05:27 PM

I am happy you are enjoying it guys.

By the way when you do it alone i know it's called "intellectual masturbation" but when you are a couple what can it be the proper definition??

If you were any smarter you'd know that pouty insults aren't witty achieve nothing but demonstrating your butthurt.

ilir

03-04-2017, 05:41 PM

If you were any smarter you'd know that pouty insults aren't witty achieve nothing but demonstrating your butthurt.

If i were any smarter i would compete you in intellectual masturbation but i am not.
and you are wrong
when people are happy i am happy no matter what.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 05:43 PM

If i were any smarter i would compete you in intellectual masturbation but i am not.
and you are wrong
when people are happy i am happy no matter what.

This'd be cute if you were a boy or Ylla. Tell us how insecure you are about the strong presence of Slavic Y-DNA markers in Tosks.

ilir

03-04-2017, 05:48 PM

This'd be cute if you were a boy or Ylla. Tell us how insecure you are about the strong presence of Slavic Y-DNA markers in Tosks.

Insecure about the strong presence means that there is not a strong presence is that right ??

Yeah pretty insecure

Drawing-slim

03-04-2017, 06:14 PM

This'd be cute if you were a boy or Ylla. Tell us how insecure you are about the strong presence of Slavic Y-DNA markers in Tosks.
There's nothing to be insecure about it. I have that very slavic ydna, and i am a gheg. For some reason before even got tested i always felt superior to all the ghegs i ever known or met in my life, and if this ydna is in a bigger presence amongst tosks then i can totaly understand why they feel so arrogantly superior and more civilized:cool:

Wrong

03-04-2017, 06:16 PM

There's nothing to be insecure about it. I have that very slavic ydna, and i am a gheg. For some reason before even got tested i always felt superior to all the ghegs i ever known or met in my life, and if this ydna is in a bigger presence amongst tosks then i can totaly understand why they feel so arrogantly superior and more civilized:cool:Just Albanize Magnolia and it will be great :D

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 06:22 PM

Insecure about the strong presence means that there is not a strong presence is that right ??

Yeah pretty insecure

How much do you know about population genetics? Actually, nevermind the question, you're coping either way.

Ujku

03-04-2017, 06:55 PM

Abubu and schola you are right , Kosovars and neo-Greeks are superior to Tosks , we're just mixed short swarthy people...Let's all praise the almighty KosovaroGreco genes the purest in the whole UNIVERSE !!!111!!!11

Laberia

03-04-2017, 06:55 PM

As regards Labs, that's not my theory , but that of a wise old Kurveleshiote.
What is this?

As far as all Tosks being newcomers, well that is more or less mainstream history,
Here is my answer, exactly using your prefered scholar, Hammond:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190348-EU-recognises-the-Cham-issue-accepts-Albanian-file&p=4173569&viewfull=1#post4173569

as elaborated previously.
Yes, this was what your elaborated previously:

Just sit back and enjoy the salty tears of Chams.

(including Jochalas).
What`s the problem with Jochalas?
Scholarios, i invite you to stop following the example of davai, stop digging in the garbage.
First of all you have to tell what is your theory. Internet is full with every kind of information and disinformation. You have to decide what is your opinion. I think this is the right way to discuss and i am ready. The other way, i am sorry but i can`t follow you. You have here this bubu and you can exchange your liquids together.
Regards.

ilir

03-04-2017, 06:56 PM

How much do you know about population genetics? Actually, nevermind the question, you're coping either way.

I know nothing about genetics but i suppose you do. Coping like you said.
Source http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations.

-------------
By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

I agree with this approach. IBD relatedness makes the most sense by far. Everything else is genotardism.

May i agree with the only aproach that makes sense to you please???
So you are asking how insecure i feel as a member of the most homogeneous population in Europe ??
Well that's a very hard question, it suit's Shcolarios intellectual level not mine
i can barely answer to you.

Laberia

03-04-2017, 06:58 PM

Ujku

03-04-2017, 06:59 PM

mos ngaterro kosovaret me nje dobic serv.

Nuk eshte vetem aji..

ilir

03-04-2017, 07:02 PM

Nuk eshte vetem aji..

Nuk ashte se duhet me shkru medoemos diçka

Laberia

03-04-2017, 07:02 PM

Nuk eshte vetem aji..

E di, e shikoj, po tani me mire bej log out sic kane bere te tjeret por mos u ul ne ate nivel. Ti e shikon qe vetem ne te dy jemi ketu?

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 07:05 PM

I know nothing about genetics but i suppose you do. Coping like you said.
Source http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations.

-------------
By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5; see Figure S12). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

May i agree with the only aproach that makes sense to you please???
So you are asking how insecure i feel as a member of the most homogeneous population in Europe ??
Well that's a very hard question, it suit's Shcolarios intellectual level not mine
i can barely answer to you.

Man you're fucking dumb. I was talking about autosomal DNA, not Y-DNA. Y-DNA most certainly tells us about population movements. Autosomal DNA tells us very, very little, on the other hand, and you won't make much sense through it. IBD does, on the other hand. We share a lot of IBD blocks with Slavs going by that study, by the way.

Ujku

03-04-2017, 07:06 PM

Nuk ashte se duhet me shkru medoemos diçka

Ca thua??

Ujku

03-04-2017, 07:08 PM

E di, e shikoj, po tani me mire bej log out sic kane bere te tjeret por mos u ul ne ate nivel. Ti e shikon qe vetem ne te dy jemi ketu?

Une e thash nje gje edhe nuk shkruaj me , se po ta hap gojen te gjehin vrim te fyten kta.
Do te thosh qe vetem ne te dy jemi nga jugu?

Laberia

03-04-2017, 07:15 PM

Une e thash nje gje edhe nuk shkruaj me , se po ta hap gojen te gjehin vrim te fyten kta.
Do te thosh qe vetem ne te dy jemi nga jugu?
Po, kush eshte tjeter?

ilir

03-04-2017, 07:16 PM

Man you're fucking dumb. I was talking about autosomal DNA, not Y-DNA. Y-DNA most certainly tells us about population movements. Autosomal DNA tells us very, very little, on the other hand, and you won't make much sense through it. IBD does, on the other hand. We share a lot of IBD blocks with Slavs going by that study, by the way.

Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations.

Ok i am dump
can you explain this

Drawing-slim

03-04-2017, 07:24 PM

Do te thosh qe vetem ne te dy jemi nga jugu?
pse flisni budalliqe kshtu? ato po kalojn diten, s'eshte nevoja te viktimizoni veten kot pa arsye.

Ujku

03-04-2017, 07:27 PM

Po, kush eshte tjeter?

Ishte nje goce, qe jetonte ne athine .
Nuk ja mbaj mend emrin ka gati nje vit qe ma tha.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 07:28 PM

Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations.

Ok i am dump
can you explain this

Albanians and Kosovars share more IBD with South Slavs than with Greeks. Greeks and Macedonians, on the other hand, share more with Albanians than they do with Slavs. What it means is both that Albanians affected these populations more than Slavs did and that they affected, and/or were affected less by, Slavic populations.

From the same study,

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.g003

now shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself.

Ujku

03-04-2017, 07:28 PM

pse flisni budalliqe kshtu? ato po kalojn diten, s'eshte nevoja te viktimizoni veten kot pa arsye.

Ore ti une e di qe ata tallin karin , po muhabeti eshte qe ka shume veta qe i mbeshtesin.

Laberia

03-04-2017, 07:31 PM

Ore ti une e di qe ata tallin karin , po muhabeti eshte qe ka shume veta qe i mbeshtetin.

Varja ketij muhabeti. Sic te thashe. Hajt degjohemi, naten.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 07:31 PM

Ore ti une e di qe ata tallin karin , po muhabeti eshte qe ka shume veta qe i mbeshtetin.

O budall, a kupton cka domethan mos me e marr si cili sen personalisht edhe me debatu me fakte edhe arsyje? Mos thoni vetit burre kur jeni qaq emocionuese.

Ujku

03-04-2017, 07:36 PM

O budall, a kupton cka domethan mos me e marr si cili sen personalisht edhe me debatu me fakte edhe arsyje? Mos thoni vetit burre kur jeni qaq emocionuese.

O rot kari hajde me mua ne behar ne sarande ose ne vlore edhe shiko me syt e tua se sa zezak edhe slav jemi.

ilir

03-04-2017, 07:40 PM

Albanians and Kosovars share more IBD with South Slavs than with Greeks. Greeks and Macedonians, on the other hand, share more with Albanians than they do with Slavs. What it means is both that Albanians affected these populations more than Slavs did and that they affected, and/or were affected less by, Slavic populations.

From the same study,

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=large&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.g003

now shut the fuck up and stop embarrassing yourself.

Your getting nervous of me embarrasing my self lol

That clearly means that albanians affected all these populations and specially south speaking slavs which we know in big part are slavspeaking albanians, ilirians or how you'd like to call them.
Now go to fuck your self and don't get nervous.

HellLander87

03-04-2017, 07:49 PM

People must stop trolling albanians of being slavic. The only significant non balkan ancestry albos have is NOrman Viking.

ilir

03-04-2017, 08:00 PM

People must stop trolling albanians of being slavic. The only significant non balkan ancestry albos have is NOrman Viking.

Abubu has good news for you

you have been fucked more from albanians than anybody else

i wanted to say affected

Wrong

03-04-2017, 08:02 PM

People must stop trolling albanians of being slavic. The only significant non balkan ancestry albos have is NOrman Viking.+ Gothic

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:03 PM

+ Gothic
Celtic as well

Wrong

03-04-2017, 08:03 PM

Celtic as wellAtlantic also

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:04 PM

What about Scythians/Sarmatians do any of you think that they could of impacted us genetically?

Wrong

03-04-2017, 08:05 PM

What about Scythians/Sarmatians do any of you think that they could of impacted us genetically?
Prolly nothing. They(The Scythians) had Mongolian influence.

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:05 PM

Atlantic also
Yep although I would say that Celtic is included as "Atlantic"

Wrong

03-04-2017, 08:06 PM

Yep although I would say that Celtic is included as "Atlantic"The Antic Basque Atlantic Admixture I was implying. :)

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 08:07 PM

O rot kari hajde me mua ne behar ne sarande ose ne vlore edhe shiko me syt e tua se sa zezak edhe slav jemi.

Gjenetika nuk rren. Edhe jum kan niqin here qanej ka ju. Edhe cka? Argument budallakafet.

Your getting nervous of me embarrasing my self lol

That clearly means that albanians affected all these populations and specially south speaking slavs which we know in big part are slavspeaking albanians, ilirians or how you'd like to call them.
Now go to fuck your self and don't get nervous.

Talking to a massive moron like you is draining. And no, that's not the whole picture. First of all, Tosks clearly have a large amount of Slavic Y-DNA, which means they assimilated a large Slavic body of people. Secondly, we share a lot of IBD with Poles, which obviously means Slavic influence on the Albanian gene pool, because Slavs went southwards from somewhere around Poland, while Albanians never were anywhere near Poland to influence it genetically.

But yes, I agree South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically, but by Gheg Albanians. What Y-DNA distributions tells us is that, at least paternally, Gheg Albanians have very little genetic influence from South Slavs, Tosks have many times more than Ghegs. Meaning that South Slavs assimilated Ghegs, while Tosks assimilated South Slavs.

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:08 PM

Prolly nothing. They(The Scythians) had Mongolian influence.
Not really as I saw an autosomal result of a Scythian/Sarmatian person and it showed that Northern European and Eurasian were dominant, also Dacians which obviously contributed to our genetic make up intermarried with Scythians/Sarmatians

Wrong

03-04-2017, 08:09 PM

Not really as I saw an autosomal result of a Scythian/Sarmatian person and it showed that Northern European and Eurasian were dominant, also Dacians which obviously contributed to our genetic make up intermarried with Scythians/SarmatiansYes but they had some of that extra, too.

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:09 PM

The Antic Basque Atlantic Admixture I was implying. :)
Aha so possibly it is implying Neolithic or Pre-Indo-European influences

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:10 PM

Yes but they had some of that extra, too.
True but they were made up of other Steppe populations so tbh it's hard to tell

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:12 PM

Gjenetika nuk rren. Edhe jum kan niqin here qanej ka ju. Edhe cka? Argument budallakafet.

Talking to a massive moron like you is draining. And no, that's not the whole picture. First of all, Tosks clearly have a large amount of Slavic Y-DNA, which means they assimilated a large Slavic body of people. Secondly, we share a lot of IBD with Poles, which obviously means Slavic influence on the Albanian gene pool, because Slavs went southwards from somewhere around Poland, while Albanians never were anywhere near Poland to influence it genetically.

But yes, I agree South Slavs were greatly influenced by Albanians genetically, but by Gheg Albanians. What Y-DNA distributions tells us is that, at least paternally, Gheg Albanians have very little genetic influence from South Slavs, Tosks have many times more than Ghegs. Meaning that South Slavs assimilated Ghegs, while Tosks assimilated South Slavs.
Especially Montenegrin's

Skerdilaid

03-04-2017, 08:15 PM

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 08:17 PM

Not necessarily you inconsistent moron, it could be due to a founder effect

Oh, right, which only means that the Tosk Albanians with (paternally) Slavic origins for some reason multiplied more, which in effect would be the same damn thing. Either way, there's a disproportionate amount of Slavic ancestry in Tosk Albanians.

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:23 PM

Not necessarily you inconsistent moron, it could be due to a founder effect
Skerdi could you pls explain to me what "Founder effect", "Bottlenecks" etc are?

Skerdilaid

03-04-2017, 08:27 PM

Oh, right, which only means that the Tosk Albanians with Slavic origins for some reason multiplied more, which in effect would be the same damn thing.

There is a difference between assimilated large body of Slavic population with few families who expanded later as Albanians any way you look at it.

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 08:30 PM

There is a difference between assimilated large body of Slavic population with few families who expanded later as Albanians any way you look at it.

Yeah, it's called splitting hairs over something that isn't very likely to have happened. And you really overestimate founder effects.

Skerdilaid

03-04-2017, 08:33 PM

Skerdi could you pls explain to me what "Founder effect", "Bottlenecks" etc are?

Read it here bro: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/bottlenecks_01

Kelmendasi

03-04-2017, 08:34 PM

Read it here bro: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/bottlenecks_01
Thanks man :thumb001:

Skerdilaid

03-04-2017, 08:42 PM

Yeah, it's called splitting hairs over something that isn't very likely to have happened. And you really overestimate founder effects.

I am not splitting hair here, if your scenario were correct we would see other effects of such assimilation, culturally and linguistically most importantly, without even discussing the low diversity of I2a within the Balkans.

Ujku

03-04-2017, 09:16 PM

Oh, right, which only means that the Tosk Albanians with (paternally) Slavic origins for some reason multiplied more, which in effect would be the same damn thing. Either way, there's a disproportionate amount of Slavic ancestry in Tosk Albanians.

But why tosk and ghegs look almost the same then ?????? My grandpa ( a Lab from corrush originaly ) is Isa boletinis look alike... Also when i was in prishtina 3 years ago with my aunt which was a guest of some people she took in her home in 99' , I don't think that i saw any difference between them (and people in prishtina in general ) and people from the south..

Also you can check gheg and tosk singers on youtube..

Herr Abubu

03-04-2017, 10:35 PM

I am not splitting hair here, if your scenario were correct we would see other effects of such assimilation, culturally and linguistically most importantly, without even discussing the low diversity of I2a within the Balkans.

It is hair-splitting. Southern Albania was only under Slavic rule for many centuries. Epirus overall was teeming with Slavs, just as it teems with Slavic toponyms to this day. The Albanian language has been influenced extensively by Slavic. A lot of our vocabulary regarding agriculture, the trades, the sea, etc. is Slavic in origin, which is why historians think that Albanians learned and took a lot of these from the Slavs. That in itself is a massive cultural influence, too. That's true whether we speak of Ghegs or Tosks. Then you just have to look at the Albanian Medieval Ages.

I2a's diversity is low exactly because it originated outside of the Balkans and came down to the Balkans with the Slavs, there's the bottleneck. Those same Slavs then brought it down to South Albania. You could hold on to your fantasy that the reason Tosks have a high percentage of it is because of a bottleneck, but there'd be Slav Y-DNA foaming out of that bottleneck all the same. But that's disregarding history. Not to mention the fact that higher I2a in Tosks also coincides with higher R1a.

But why tosk and ghegs look almost the same then ?????? My grandpa ( a Lab from corrush originaly ) is Isa boletinis look alike... Also when i was in prishtina 3 years ago with my aunt which was a guest of some people she took in her home in 99' , I don't think that i saw any difference between them (and people in prishtina in general ) and people from the south..

Also you can check gheg and tosk singers on youtube..

For fuck's sake, stop being such a simpleton. I've been in the south a thousand times and the differences are obvious. Not even North Albanians look like you, they look more like us, and they're within your own borders. Fact is you have a lot of Slavic Y-DNA.

Wrong

03-04-2017, 10:37 PM

We can't be too sure that Tosks have a high I2a1b frequency since not too many have been tested. It could possibly be as low as 12-15%.

It should be peaking in the Vlachs of South Albania.

catgeorge

03-04-2017, 10:49 PM

You guys freak out over a lot over nothing. I + J is Cro Magnon ancestery.

R + G + E + N + T missed the boat.

The Illyrian Warrior

03-04-2017, 10:50 PM

We can't be too sure that Tosks have a high I2a1b frequency since not too many have been tested. It could possibly be as low as 12-15%.

It should be peaking in the Vlachs of South Albania.

Korca is most heavily Vlachic region of which correlates with high I2a aswell, seem that Vlachs indeed have unusual high number of I2a.

Wrong

03-04-2017, 10:52 PM

Korca is most heavily Vlachic region of which correlates with high I2a aswell, seem that Vlachs indeed have unusual high number of I2a.Slavs + Aromanians may have together brought I2a1b to the Balkans as a founder effect:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png/800px-South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png

catgeorge

03-04-2017, 10:57 PM

Korca is most heavily Vlachic region of which correlates with high I2a aswell, seem that Vlachs indeed have unusual high number of I2a.

Yes Vlachs and Sarakatsani do have I-P37.2 its about 11k years old in line with Thessalian neolithic expansion into Balkans from Sesklo or so the theory goes.

Coolguy1

03-04-2017, 10:59 PM

Yes Vlachs and Sarakatsani do have I-P37.2 its about 11k years old in line with Thessalian neolithic expansion into Balkans from Sesklo or so the theory goes.

Any studies on the Sarakatsanoi?

catgeorge

03-04-2017, 11:00 PM

We apologise for the spread of I - all we wanted to do is to ensure you freak out daily on TA

http://www.geocities.ws/luis_aldamiz/prehistory/maps/-6000.gif

The Illyrian Warrior

03-04-2017, 11:01 PM

Slavs + Aromanians together may have brought I2a1b to the Balkans as a founder effect:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png/800px-South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png

Wasn't coincidence when I said on another thread that I'm interested to know more genetically about Korca, this region is well known for huge Vlachic population.......high I2a correlates very well with high Vlach population, therefore this genetic marks wasn't caused solely by Slavic settlers but perhaps more from Vlachs then slavs themselves.

Wrong

03-04-2017, 11:01 PM

Yes Vlachs and Sarakatsani do have I-P37.2 its about 11k years old in line with Thessalian neolithic expansion into Balkans from Sesklo or so the theory goes.
It's the very same clade as I2a1b-Din, so from Slavic origin. Enough with the fairytales.

If Tosks are Slavic influenced, then Vlachs are even more so.

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 11:06 PM

But why tosk and ghegs look almost the same then ?????? My grandpa ( a Lab from corrush originaly ) is Isa boletinis look alike... Also when i was in prishtina 3 years ago with my aunt which was a guest of some people she took in her home in 99' , I don't think that i saw any difference between them (and people in prishtina in general ) and people from the south..

And R1a Greek from Crete looks almost exactly same as a J2 Italian, because ydna is just a marker that represents a small part of genome and has no effect on phenotype.

catgeorge

03-04-2017, 11:08 PM

Any studies on the Sarakatsanoi?

Not enough data to make conclusions at the moment. Most likely majority will be J + I

catgeorge

03-04-2017, 11:11 PM

It's the very same clade as I2a1b-Din, so from Slavic origin. Enough with the fairytales.

If Tosks are Slavic influenced, then Vlachs are even more so.

Aww you are such a scholar only that I2a1b came like 5 thousand years later.

The Illyrian Warrior

03-04-2017, 11:14 PM

It's the very same clade as I2a1b-Din, so from Slavic origin. Enough with the fairytales.

If Tosks are Slavic influenced, then Vlachs are even more so.

Vlachs were basically shepherds/nomads throughout their history they have migrated from one place to another, they brought their paternal genetic lineage along in Albania when they established themselves in southern Albania hence why you got this unusually high number of I2a among southern Albos........This supposed massive slavic settlers leaving their genetic mark sounds overestimated for my taste, Vlachs theory however is far more plausible as Albania was indeed known for huge Vlach settlements.

Wrong

03-04-2017, 11:17 PM

Aww you are such a scholar only that I2a1b came like 5 thousand years later.I2a1b was never found in Greek Ancient remains, that's all I have to say.

Same with G, it's all bullshit. You are older than me, stop dreaming like a kid.

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 11:17 PM

Vlachs were basically shepherds/nomads throughout their history they have migrated from one place to another, they brought their paternal genetic lineage along in Albania when they established themselves in southern Albania hence why you got this unusually high number of I2a among southern Albos........This supposed massive slavic settlers leaving their genetic mark sounds overestimated for my taste, Vlachs theory however is far more plausible as Albania was indeed known for huge Vlach settlements.

It just means Romanized/Hellenized Slavs left a big imprint rather than Proto-Slavs. But I agree, it is a possibility. Probably it is a reason for similar levels in Greece too.

Drawing-slim

03-04-2017, 11:25 PM

It just means Romanized/Hellenized Slavs left a big imprint rather than Proto-Slavs. But I agree, it is a possibility. Probably it is a reason for similar levels in Greece too.

I dont see why is it a problem if it is slavic?!lol seriously,lol This exact marker has produced Tesla. The arguably the greatest mind that ever lived, and Martin Luther, the greatest spirtual leader of western christianity. For a brand new infant marker you cant ask for much more than producing two world's greatest men:p

Scholarios

03-04-2017, 11:32 PM

I dont see why is it a problem if it is slavic?!lol seriously,lol This exact marker has produced Tesla. The arguably the greatest mind that ever lived, and Martin Luther, the greatest spirtual leader of western christianity. For a brand new infant marker you cant ask for much more than producing two world's greatest men:p

You are right. It isn't a problem. The great Max Von Sydow is also R1a. I'd rather be related him than some E-V13 Sali Berisha or J2 Laiko singer.

Wrong

03-04-2017, 11:38 PM

I dont see why is it a problem if it is slavic?!lol seriously,lol This exact marker has produced Tesla. The arguably the greatest mind that ever lived, and Martin Luther, the greatest spirtual leader of western christianity. For a brand new infant marker you cant ask for much more than producing two world's greatest men:pI'm possibly Slavic/Serbian maternally, who knows? Bride stealing was common among Ghegnian highlanders in the past. :D

catgeorge

03-04-2017, 11:45 PM

I2a1b was never found in Greek Ancient remains, that's all I have to say.

Same with G, it's all bullshit. You are older than me, stop dreaming like a kid.

Obviously you have a few loose screws in your head reflects some butthurtness.

Like saying you come from Nordics and Varangians projecting to Scandinavia - little insecure people. As if no one has seen you other than photos spammed all over the internet.

Well plenty of skeletons found in Sesklo and Franchthi

https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-11-69/MediaObjects/12862_2010_1674_Fig2_HTML.jpg

Wrong

03-04-2017, 11:47 PM

m423 - all brought by Slavic speakers, same with its ancestral clade m438

Too much fat saturating in your brain has not made you realize this, catgeorge. All your posts reek of butthurt from Australia.

You shouldnt talk about Scandinavians when you plot closer to modern Lebanese. Typical fat bluepilled retard.

21% R1a str8 from Poland.

Dema

03-04-2017, 11:57 PM

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 12:02 AM

As i explained earlier in this thread it is impossible that S Albania has so much I2a1b, esspecially more then Macedonia, sounds like complete nonsense.
There is no chance that most of S Albania has 30% I2a1b, maybe 10% and thats if at best.

Maybe I am missing something, I dont see that study. But I assumed its around 10% with another 10-15% r1a, from other studies I have seen. (about the same as Greece, who also generally resisted Slavicization in the middle ages) For ethnic purists, that is significant.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 12:03 AM

m423 - all brought by Slavic speakers

Too much fat saturating in your brain has not made you realize this, catgeorge. All your posts reek of butthurt from Australia.

You shouldnt talk about Scandinavians when you plot closer to modern Lebanese. Typical fat bluepilled retard.

I M438 is way before Slav speakers I2a1b2 has its ancestery from M438 but I2a1 is not I2a-Din and vice versa theres about 10,000 years difference. Io si kapsh Iranic triangle head?

I-M438 is more likely to be an Alpine/mountain related haplogroup as its big in the Swiss alps and thus found in and around the South East Europe mountains as well. You are very much a miseducated low IQ simpleton.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 12:06 AM

Wrong

03-05-2017, 12:07 AM

I M438 is way before Slav speakers I2a1b2 has its ancestery from M438 but I2a1 is not I2a-Din and vice versa theres about 10,000 years difference. Io si kapsh Iranic triangle head?

I-M438 is more likely to be an Alpine/mountain related haplogroup as its big in the Swiss alps and thus found in and around the South East Europe mountains as well. You are very much a miseducated low IQ simpleton.M438 is simply the designation for the ancestral clade, no percentages in that, its descendant clades which are brought by Slavic speakers, some minor recent lineages from elsewhere but nothing significant.

R1a at 21% also in some area, straight from Poland. I wonder how much of this you seem to think is "Scythian".

Judging from your posting history, your IQ levels are below 60. Too fucking stupid and bluepilled at that.

Dema

03-05-2017, 12:08 AM

Maybe I am missing something, I dont see that study. But I assumed its around 10% with another 10-15% r1a, from other studies I have seen. (about the same as Greece, who also generally resisted Slavicization in the middle ages) For ethnic purists, that is significant.

What study? Look at map of I2a1b on first page. It is shown like most of S Albania has 30% of I2a1b. What is nonesense.
IDK about R1a, but i would say at max 10% I2a1b and 10% R1a, and really at max. IT is still unexplored area but its obvious that this map is not correct when showing most of S Albania having 25-30% I2a1b and more then anywhere in Macedonia. That is complete BS, and this thread is about that detail.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 12:09 AM

I-M438 is both of those clades, the dominant one in Greece is I2a1b though, man. It appears there in the middle ages, i believe.

There is no evidence of I2a-Din in Greece

It should have come through at least once on Battaglias studies

https://i.imgsafe.org/b64e9c9be1.jpg

Wrong

03-05-2017, 12:10 AM

I2a1* is the I2a1b-Din, bluepilled retardo. Shooting yourself in the foot again.

There is no evidence of I2a-Din in Greece

It should have come through at least once on Battaglias studies

https://i.imgsafe.org/b64e9c9be1.jpg

Wrong

03-05-2017, 12:14 AM

Same map catgeorge linked, he cropped off the other ethnicities in the picture

Peaks in South Slavs:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Underhill/publication/23688817/figure/fig1/AS:267331746136091@1440748263558/Figure-1-Phylogeny-of-Y-chromosome-haplogroups-and-their-frequencies-in-the-examined.png

Dema

03-05-2017, 12:17 AM

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 12:20 AM

There is no evidence of I2a-Din in Greece

It should have come through at least once on Battaglias studies

https://i.imgsafe.org/b64e9c9be1.jpg

There is evidence of it in Greece, I have a whole crop of 4th cousins on 23andme from Sparta who are are I2a Dinaric. It shows up as varying frequencies around Greece. The only thing that would keep it from showing up in Greece is lack of official testing. How many legitimate (and illegetimate) descendants of Stefan Dusan's nobles in Thessaly you think? Not to mention parts of Northern Greece was under the Bulgarians for what.. total of 400 years or something? Doesn't even include the 300 years of blackness following the crossing of the Danube by Avars.

Dema

03-05-2017, 12:22 AM

Wrong

03-05-2017, 12:23 AM

There is evidence of it in Greece, I have a whole crop of 4th cousins on 23andme from Sparta who are are I2a Dinaric. It shows up as varying frequencies around Greece. The only thing that would keep it from showing up in Greece is lack of official testing. How many legitimate (and illegetimate) descendants of Stefan Dusan's nobles in Thessaly you think? Not to mention parts of Northern Greece was under the Bulgarians for what.. total of 400 years or something? Doesn't even include the 300 years of blackness following the crossing of the Danube by Avars.Seems like you are one of the few Greeks here that can discuss this in a logical manner without problems. I respect that.

I don't doubt external influence in Albanians, just that we come from a smaller sample of ancient populations, was more isolated.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 12:24 AM

I2a1* is the I2a1b-Din, bluepilled retardo. Shooting yourself in the foot again.

It should be illegal to be as thick headed as you - all the head space you have and potential brain capacity usage I find it difficult to believe you use a nano 0.1% of it

I highlighted it for you so you wont get confused

https://i.imgsafe.org/b684c1fd5f.png

Wrong

03-05-2017, 12:29 AM

It should be illegal to be as thick headed as you - all the head space you have and potential brain capacity usage I find it difficult to believe you use a nano 0.1% of it

I highlighted it for you so you wont get confused

https://i.imgsafe.org/b684c1fd5f.png

Hahahaha you just tried to make the ancestral clade "Greek" through paint, while the only relevant has been found there to be I2a1b-Din. :D

Your posts branched off into Raine levels of comedy awhile ago.

Find a new hobby.

I2a1b-Din is the only I2 clade in Greece, rest is as irrelevant as Gypsy y-dna H1, also J1 and G:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Underhill/publication/23688817/figure/fig1/AS:267331746136091@1440748263558/Figure-1-Phylogeny-of-Y-chromosome-haplogroups-and-their-frequencies-in-the-examined.png

The only thickheaded retard here is you.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 12:52 AM

I am happy you are enjoying it guys.

By the way when you do it alone i know it's called "intellectual masturbation" but when you are a couple what can it be the proper definition??

Apparently, you feel like you are being raped. This is just discussion though.

Na zdravie, Brat!

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 01:23 AM

Hahahaha you just tried to make the ancestral clade "Greek" through paint, while the only relevant has been found there to be I2a1b-Din. :D

The only thickheaded retard here is you.

Not entirely convinced - Dalmatia has the highest I2a1 (55%) in the world where Republic of Ragusa was loosely Slavonic (Italian was the official language until 1808)

The Ragusan archives document, Speculum Maioris Consilii Rectores, lists all the persons that were involved in the Republic's government between September 1440 to January 1808. There were 4397 rectors elected; 2764 (63%) were from "old patrician" families: Gozze, Bona, Caboga, Cerva, Ghetaldi, Giorgi, Gradi, Pozza, Saraca, Sorgo, and Zamanya.

in the 17th century, 50% of the dukes and senators were from the following families: Bona, Gondola, Gozze, Menze, Sorgo.
in the 18th century, 56% of senators were from these families: Sorgo, Gozze, Zananya, Caboga, Giorgi.
in the last eight years of the Republic, 50% of dukes were from the Sorgo, Gozze, Gradi, Bona, or Ragnina families.

So how could Dalmatia have the highest frequency of I2a1 with the highest frequency of Latinic input?

Dema

03-05-2017, 01:29 AM

Not entirely convinced - Dalmatia has the highest I2a1 (55%) in the world where Republic of Ragusa was loosely Slavonic (Italian was the official language until 1808)

The Ragusan archives document, Speculum Maioris Consilii Rectores, lists all the persons that were involved in the Republic's government between September 1440 to January 1808. There were 4397 rectors elected; 2764 (63%) were from "old patrician" families: Gozze, Bona, Caboga, Cerva, Ghetaldi, Giorgi, Gradi, Pozza, Saraca, Sorgo, and Zamanya.

in the 17th century, 50% of the dukes and senators were from the following families: Bona, Gondola, Gozze, Menze, Sorgo.
in the 18th century, 56% of senators were from these families: Sorgo, Gozze, Zananya, Caboga, Giorgi.
in the last eight years of the Republic, 50% of dukes were from the Sorgo, Gozze, Gradi, Bona, or Ragnina families.

So how could Dalmatia have the highest frequency of I2a1 with the highest frequency of Latinic input?

Hercegovina has 70% I2a1b, then Muslim Bosnjaks go, and then maybe Dalmatia but i doubt that it las 55% as you say, i would say maybe little less..

Trojet

03-05-2017, 01:33 AM

Obviously you have a few loose screws in your head reflects some butthurtness.

Like saying you come from Nordics and Varangians projecting to Scandinavia - little insecure people. As if no one has seen you other than photos spammed all over the internet.

Well plenty of skeletons found in Sesklo and Franchthi

https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-11-69/MediaObjects/12862_2010_1674_Fig2_HTML.jpg

:picard2:
Are you serious? Those are not ancient samples, rather from living humans collected from those sites.

It should be illegal to be as thick headed as you - all the head space you have and potential brain capacity usage I find it difficult to believe you use a nano 0.1% of it

I highlighted it for you so you wont get confused

https://i.imgsafe.org/b684c1fd5f.png

Hahahahaha. It's like me claiming, hey I am J2-M172 and my clade is 27800 years old (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/)(without revealing that further dowsntream I'm also M172>M102>M241>L283>etc...)

Wrong

03-05-2017, 01:35 AM

:picard2:
Are you serious? Those are not ancient samples, rather from living humans collected from those sites.

Hahahahaha. It's like me saulying, hey I am J2-M172 and my clade is 27800 years old (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/)(without revealing that further dowsntream I'm also M172>M102>M241>L283>etc...)Catgeorge gets the El-Retardo award. :cool:

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 01:36 AM

Not entirely convinced - Dalmatia has the highest I2a1 (55%) in the world where Republic of Ragusa was loosely Slavonic (Italian was the official language until 1808)

The Ragusan archives document, Speculum Maioris Consilii Rectores, lists all the persons that were involved in the Republic's government between September 1440 to January 1808. There were 4397 rectors elected; 2764 (63%) were from "old patrician" families: Gozze, Bona, Caboga, Cerva, Ghetaldi, Giorgi, Gradi, Pozza, Saraca, Sorgo, and Zamanya.

in the 17th century, 50% of the dukes and senators were from the following families: Bona, Gondola, Gozze, Menze, Sorgo.
in the 18th century, 56% of senators were from these families: Sorgo, Gozze, Zananya, Caboga, Giorgi.
in the last eight years of the Republic, 50% of dukes were from the Sorgo, Gozze, Gradi, Bona, or Ragnina families.

So how could Dalmatia have the highest frequency of I2a1 with the highest frequency of Latinic input?

Founder effect. At least that is the case with similar Slovenian population. (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/03014460.2013.813584?scroll=top&needAccess=true), who show close relationship with Western Slavic groups (Poles, Slovaks)

Conclusion: Analysis of Y-chromosomal markers in five Slovenian regions revealed a diverse genetic landscape. Slovenian population display close genetic affiliations with West Slavic populations. The homogenous genetic strata of the West Slavic populations and the Slovenian population suggest the existence of a common ancestral Slavic population in central European region.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 01:42 AM

Hercegovina has 70% I2a1b, then Muslim Bosnjaks go, and then maybe Dalmatia but i doubt that it las 55% as you say, i would say maybe little less..

I am not talking about I2a1b I know thats the slavic subclade I am talking about I2a1 - Bosnians have 54% I2a1

Croatia mainland has 32% I2a1 some 30% less than Dalmatians -- neither M423 is Slavic nor carried by Slavic speakers as dopey points out as this is also found in Great Britain.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 01:46 AM

Founder effect. At least that is the case with similar Slovenian population. (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/03014460.2013.813584?scroll=top&needAccess=true), who show close relationship with Western Slavic groups (Poles, Slovaks)

Not buying it - Ireland has some 5-10% I2a1 M423

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 01:51 AM

Not buying it - Ireland has some 5-10% I2a1 M423

ha, more like 2-3% across all of British Isles, basically at a rate same as J1 in Denmark lol (https://www.geni.com/projects/I-M423-Y-DNA/7996). C'mon Yorgaki, bro, let's be serious.

Dick

03-05-2017, 01:52 AM

I2a1-L621 is a subclade of M423. Isn't that the subclade in discussion?

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 01:57 AM

ha, more like 2-3% across all of British Isles, basically at a rate same as J1 in Denmark lol (https://www.geni.com/projects/I-M423-Y-DNA/7996). C'mon Yorgaki, bro, let's be serious.

Depends on the sources I guess

https://i.imgsafe.org/b7e61d223c.png

Trojet

03-05-2017, 01:57 AM

Not buying it - Ireland has some 5-10% I2a1 M423

And how much of it belongs in the Dinaric (L621>CTS10228) subclade???

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 01:59 AM

And how much of it belongs in the Dinaric (L621>CTS10228) subclade???

ZERO

..and exactly my point that dopey is trying to make that all I2a1 is I2a-Din

Trojet

03-05-2017, 02:03 AM

ZERO

..and exactly my point that dopey is trying to make that all I2a1 is I2a-Din

Well Balkan I2a1 almost all of it falls in the said subclade.... Therefore you can't really say they are the same, as the TMRCA of I-M423 is 13,700 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/).

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 02:08 AM

ZERO

..and exactly my point that dopey is trying to make that all I2a1 is I2a-Din

But we are being specific, only this branch of I2a1 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/) is identified as Slavic in origin. Not all I2a1 is Slavic in origin, but I2a1b2, defined by SNP L621 is.

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

Origin in Poland 2200 years ago, also found in North Greece. There ya go.

family tree DNA project members who marked themselves on map belonging to this clade:

http://s25.postimg.org/rpfih2i67/map_overview_22102015.jpg

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 02:17 AM

But we are being specific, only this branch of I2a1 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/) is identified as Slavic in origin. Not all I2a1 is Slavic in origin, but I2a1b2, defined by SNP L621 is.

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

family tree DNA project members who marked themselves on map belonging to this clade:

http://s25.postimg.org/rpfih2i67/map_overview_22102015.jpg

You mean specific like this?

Some fathead cant keep up who it is with all the name changes..

m423 - all brought by Slavic speakers, same with its ancestral clade m438

Too much fat saturating in your brain has not made you realize this, catgeorge. All your posts reek of butthurt from Australia.

You shouldnt talk about Scandinavians when you plot closer to modern Lebanese. Typical fat bluepilled retard.

21% R1a str8 from Poland.

:bounce:

Wrong

03-05-2017, 02:20 AM

You mean specific like this?

Some fathead cant keep up who it is with all the name changes..

:bounce:
One typo doesn't make it all wrong. Everything you wrote and believe in so far is wrong.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 02:25 AM

Anyway - I believe I2a was bought to Balkans via Sesklo.. Thessalian or Balcan neolithic expansion then meeting with Printed Cordium Pottery cultures that flipped to I2a1 somewhere in 3000 BC

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 02:30 AM

Anyway - I believe I2a was bought to Balkans via Sesklo.. Thessalian or Balcan neolithic expansion then meeting with Printed Cordium Pottery cultures that flipped to I2a1 somewhere in 3000 BC

Emphasis on * believe *- you believe it on faith and in spite of all evidence to the contrary. A DNA that mutated in 130BC in Poland cannot be related to Greek Neolithic. It is impossible. Yours is a milder obstinance than Laberia's, but obstinance nonetheless. Sigh.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 02:35 AM

Emphasis on * believe *- you believe it on faith and in spite of all evidence to the contrary. A DNA that mutated in 130BC in Poland cannot be related to Greek Neolithic. It is impossible. Yours is a milder obstinance than Laberia's, but obstinance nonetheless. Sigh.

How do you know what the Balkan Neolithic expansion looked like? I + J is cro magnon off spring from 40,000 years ago. We know the Thessalian Neolithic culture expansion is a fact. don't fucking try to be smart ass to me again.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0c/bc/22/0cbc22bb9752a3243bb876a444cbe1f6.gif

Wrong

03-05-2017, 02:39 AM

catpussy's first time redpill in haplogroups :laugh:

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 02:41 AM

How do you know what the Balkan Neolithic expansion looked like? I + J is cro magnon off spring from 40,000 years ago. We know the Thessalian Neolithic culture expansion is a fact. don't fucking try to be smart ass to me again.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0c/bc/22/0cbc22bb9752a3243bb876a444cbe1f6.gif

No, I am repeating if this clade didn't exist yet in Balkan Neolithic, then how can its origin be there? It makes no sense. Are you being dense on purpose?

Dont give me this eupedia fantasy of Maciamo, who wants to Nordicize ancient Greece like a shithead all through MS Paint program.

Wrong

03-05-2017, 02:42 AM

categorge are you R1b-BY611? Dema told me :D

Lek

03-05-2017, 02:44 AM

Catpussy :cool:

Skerdilaid

03-05-2017, 02:55 AM

It is hair-splitting. Southern Albania was only under Slavic rule for many centuries. Epirus overall was teeming with Slavs, just as it teems with Slavic toponyms to this day. The Albanian language has been influenced extensively by Slavic. A lot of our vocabulary regarding agriculture, the trades, the sea, etc. is Slavic in origin, which is why historians think that Albanians learned and took a lot of these from the Slavs. That in itself is a massive cultural influence, too. That's true whether we speak of Ghegs or Tosks. Then you just have to look at the Albanian Medieval Ages.

I2a's diversity is low exactly because it originated outside of the Balkans and came down to the Balkans with the Slavs, there's the bottleneck. Those same Slavs then brought it down to South Albania. You could hold on to your fantasy that the reason Tosks have a high percentage of it is because of a bottleneck, but there'd be Slav Y-DNA foaming out of that bottleneck all the same. But that's disregarding history. Not to mention the fact that higher I2a in Tosks also coincides with higher R1a.
Influence is certainly there but it's mostly borrowings through interaction, not imposition which one would expect to see in such scenario. Your statement was baseless, simple as that, no evidence whatsoever. Once we get a descent database on our project from Tosks we will be able to tell exactly when their specific subclades expanded and how diverse they are, and I will be able to demonstrate it to you exactly how it unfolded - and I again am quite confident that I am right, that they entered early on, perhaps during first Bulgarian empire if not in their initial invasion, and expanded during early middle ages when Tosk tribes could be found far and wide in today's Greece (though going by few studies majority will most likely end up being under Z17855 with few Y4460 'Din S' and S17250 'Din N').

Skerdilaid

03-05-2017, 02:59 AM

categorge are you R1b-BY611? Dema told me :D

Tha's what I thought too, that he's my cous (I thought I spoke to him via email). Now juding by his behaviour, I guess he isn't, he probably is I2a xD

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 03:15 AM

No, I am repeating if this clade didn't exist yet in Balkan Neolithic, then how can its origin be there? It makes no sense. Are you being dense on purpose?

Dont give me this eupedia fantasy of Maciamo, who wants to Nordicize ancient Greece like a shithead all through MS Paint program.

You are wrong - Lazaridis already has a report on it and here is from a non Greek source

Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization

Published 25 March 2015.DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2015.0339

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1805/20150339

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royprsb/282/1805/20150339/F1.large.jpg

(b) Y chromosomal DNA

We analysed 33 Y-haplogroup defining SNPs located on the non-recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY), using multiplex [38] and singleplex PCR. We successfully generated unambiguous NRY SNP profiles for nine male individuals (STA = 7, LBKT = 2; electronic supplementary material, datasets S3 and S5). Three STA individuals belong to the NRY haplogroup F* (M89) and two specimens can be assigned to the haplogroup G2a2b (S126), and one each to G2a (P15) and I2a1 (P37.2). The two investigated LBKT samples carry haplogroups G2a2b (S126) and I1 (M253). Furthermore, incomplete SNP profiles of eight specimens potentially belong to the same haplogroups—STA: three G2a2b (S126), two G2a (P15) and one I (M170); LBKT: one G2a2b (S126) and one F* (M89).

The discontinuity between hunter–gatherer and farmer ancestry is also visible in our Y chromosome results. Y chromosome study of modern-day Europeans has suggested a post-LGM expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refugium for clade I1, and southeast European refugium for I2a1 based on high divergence time estimates [58]. I2a has indeed been found in Mesolithic and Neolithic Central and North European hunter–gatherers [33,34,40,41], as well as in Neolithic remains of southwestern Europe [44,45]. Haplogroup I2a (and possibly I1) might represent a pre-farming legacy of the NRY variation in Europe, alongside the recently described pre-Neolithic C (M130) haplogroups in Russia and Spain [35,42].

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 03:25 AM

You are wrong - Lazaridis already has a report on it and here is from a non Greek source

Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization

Published 25 March 2015.DOI: 10.1098/rspb.2015.0339

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1805/20150339

[]

Mostly irrelevant or tangential to our current topic. You are hopeless on this man, completely hopeless.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 03:48 AM

Mostly irrelevant or tangential to our current topic. You are hopeless on this man, completely hopeless.

Talking about a Laberia type deflection indicating I has never been neolithic. Perhaps you do have Albanian genes.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 03:53 AM

Talking about a Laberia type deflection indicating I has never been neolithic. Perhaps you do have Albanian genes.

That some kind of I clade was present in the Neolithic is irrelevant- that the dominant I in Greece and Albania is in fact I2a1b2 or related Slavic-derived R1a1 is the point. Have you missed the past 30 posts? What is your clade? Maybe I am Albanian, I am E-v13 after all, but I plot with South Italians and Jews, so.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 03:59 AM

That some kind of I clade was present in the Neolithic is irrelevant- that the dominant I in Greece and Albania is in fact I2a1b2 or related Slavic-derived R1a1 is the point. Have you missed the past 30 posts? What is your clade? Maybe I am Albanian, I am E-v13 after all, but I plot with South Italians and Jews, so.

There is no evidence of it whatsoever. It stops at M 423 which is I2a1 no matter how you want to wash it. I2a-Din is probably due to a millenia long morph of I2a1 and R1a1 M56

Laberia

03-05-2017, 04:05 AM

Maybe I am missing something, I dont see that study. But I assumed its around 10% with another 10-15% r1a, from other studies I have seen. (about the same as Greece, who also generally resisted Slavicization in the middle ages) For ethnic purists, that is significant.
Haha, this is just perfect. So you assume. Nice.
And no, it's not the same as Greece. I know that this is your intention. Ancient greeks disappeared. You have to understand something. In your country, the story of the land is not the same with the story of the population that live there. The fact that you live in Greece doesn't make you a greek. You personally, is high probabile that you are a cuman.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 04:12 AM

There is no evidence of it whatsoever. It stops at M 423 which is I2a1 no matter how you want to wash it. I2a-Din is probably due to a millenia long morph of I2a1 and R1a1 M56

Here is evidence:

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

Look at that- a clade that formed 2200 years ago in Poland and still exists in Poland and Greece both.

Here it is again:

http://s25.postimg.org/rpfih2i67/map_overview_22102015.jpg

And where the hell is it in South Italy if it was in Neolithic Greeks? Only in Gargano, where Medieval Croats settled. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats)

Laberia

03-05-2017, 04:14 AM

As i explained earlier in this thread it is impossible that S Albania has so much I2a1b, esspecially more then Macedonia, sounds like complete nonsense.
There is no chance that most of S Albania has 30% I2a1b, maybe 10% and thats if at best.

What is the opinion of the experts in this forum about your question, i mean about this 30%?
10%,and why10%?
Dema, and all the others, can you tell me how % of this 104 Tosk Albanians are R1a? Here is the study:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/full/ejhg2015138a.html

Ghegs get around 6% I2+r1a combined.

Tosks about 23%

Arbereshe about 30%

(I do not count I1- brought by Normans, Goths, Catalans, etc)

You can interpret that any way your little heart desires.

Because this is the study of what we are discussing.
Thank you Dema.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 04:16 AM

...

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 04:20 AM

Influence is certainly there but it's mostly borrowings through interaction, not imposition which one would expect to see in such scenario. Your statement was baseless, simple as that, no evidence whatsoever. Once we get a descent database on our project from Tosks we will be able to tell exactly when their specific subclades expanded and how diverse they are, and I will be able to demonstrate it to you exactly how in unfolded - and I again I am quite confident that I am right, that they entered early on, perhaps during first Bulgarian empire if not in their initial invasion, and expanded during early middle ages when Tosk tribes could be found far and wide in today's Greece.

Yes, I am aware that founder effects and bottle-necks are unimportant when discussing their recent effects in Kosovo, Northern Albania- but extremely pertinent when analyzing effects of Slavic migrations in South Albania.

Successful males are successful males, right?

and expanded during early middle ages when Tosk tribes could be found far and wide in today's Greece.

*late middle ages

Skerdilaid

03-05-2017, 04:33 AM

Yes, I am aware that founder effects and bottle-necks are unimportant when discussing their recent effects in Kosovo, Northern Albania- but extremely pertinent when analyzing effects of Slavic migrations in South Albania.

Successful males are successful males, right?

*late middle ages

Who said they are? Our discussion in the past regarding founder effect and bottleneck in the population of Kosova was centred around our V13 and its variance, which so far, especially in Kosova, has proven to be the most diverse halpogroup. The only clusters that seem to have experience such phenomenon among us seem to be J2b-PH1751 along with R1b-BY611 to an extent, not V13.

Their initial tribal expansion started in early Middle ages, perhaps only within Albania at first, which in turn allowed them to 'export' manpower in abundance during the 14th century - by this time they were a force to recon with in Thessaly.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 04:45 AM

Who said they are? Our discussion in the past regarding founder effect and bottleneck in the population of Kosova was centred around our V13 and its variance, which so far, especially in Kosova, has proven to be the most diverse halpogroup. The only clusters that seem to have experience such phenomenon among us seem to be J2b-PH1751 along with R1b-BY611 to an extent, not V13.

So just those 2 haplogroup clades. But it's not important I guess, I didn't say specifically E-V13.(and I'll just take your word for it)

Their initial tribal expansion started in early Middle ages, perhaps only within Albania at first, which in turn allowed them to 'import' manpower in abundance during the 14th century - by this time they were a force to recon with in Thessaly.

Yep, but Tosks in Greece in late middle ages, not early. Even at the end of 13th Century, they probably didn't expand beyond Berat. Sure, they started expanding in Albania since the early Middle ages tho.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 05:57 AM

Here is evidence:

http://s13.postimg.org/ossn8zu7r/I2a1b2a1.png

Look at that- a clade that formed 2200 years ago in Poland and still exists in Poland and Greece both.

Here it is again:

http://s25.postimg.org/rpfih2i67/map_overview_22102015.jpg

And where the hell is it in South Italy if it was in Neolithic Greeks? Only in Gargano, where Medieval Croats settled. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molise_Croats)

You keep bringing up the same map - yet you have no idea what it is.

This is exactly what I am talking about - if you also plot EV 13, G2a and J2a you will get more or less the same results - that's what the Thessalian Neolithic Expansion did in those exact same areas.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/312/5782/1875.2/F1.large.jpg

Laberia

03-05-2017, 06:07 AM

You keep bringing up the same map - yet you have no idea what it is.

This is the smartest thing I've ever read by you. It's normal, he is an idiot who pretends and even believes that he is an intelligent person.
Thanks gataki, i have laugh so much, you made my day. Hahahahahaha.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=6971&dateline=1488152568&type=thumb

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 06:21 AM

You keep bringing up the same map - yet you have no idea what it is.

This is exactly what I am talking about - if you also plot EV 13, G2a and J2a you will get more or less the same results - that's what the Thessalian Neolithic Expansion did in those exact same areag]

Dude- you are the one who has absolutely no clue. Did you see that the person in Greece matches perfectly someone from Poland in a clade that is 2200 years old??? Can you understand that the Neolithic is thousands of years older than that???? Yes, I know Neolithic expansion happened in Greece - but this clade is NOT related to it, and the evidence is that first appeared around the time of the Roman Empire expansion. Geezus- you're dense as fuck. Your little MS paint map is irrelevant.

I can only conclude that you are a. I2a1b2 and b. Completely delusional as far as the genetic impact of Slavic peoples in Balkans ( for some bogus nationalist reasons).

This is the smartest thing I've ever read by you. It's normal, he is an idiot who pretends and even believes that he is an intelligent person.
Thanks gataki, i have laugh so much, you made my day. Hahahahahaha.
[IMG]http://www]

I'm an idiot who pretends to be intelligent ? What are you? A degenerate who knows he's an imbecile???
Sure, laugh it up. It's natural for you to share such alliances - you and dear cat George almost certainly share a Slavic -speaking ancestor in the past 1200 years. Bros for life.

catgeorge

03-05-2017, 07:40 AM

Dude- you are the one who has absolutely no clue. Did you see that the person in Greece matches perfectly someone from Poland in a clade that is 2200 years old??? Can you understand that the Neolithic is thousands of years older than that???? Yes, I know Neolithic expansion happened in Greece - but this clade is NOT related to it, and the evidence is that first appeared around the time of the Roman Empire expansion. Geezus- you're dense as fuck. Your little MS paint map is irrelevant.

I can only conclude that you are a. I2a1b2 and b. Completely delusional as far as the genetic impact of Slavic peoples in Balkans ( for some bogus nationalist reasons).

I'm an idiot who pretends to be intelligent ? What are you? A degenerate who knows he's an imbecile???
Sure, laugh it up. It's natural for you to share such alliances - you and dear cat George almost certainly share a Slavic -speaking ancestor in the past 1200 years. Bros for life.

You do not want to listen because you have limited thinking capacity. I2a1 has been in Europe forever. Its one of the proto splits from cro magnons in Europe. The map is not mine it is direct from the sciencemag if you cared to look at the link.

I would not care if I shared slavic nor albanian ancestery, you are the only one that wants and needs it in typical marxist fashion - then twist it in a nationalistic ideology without looking at the facts. Enough tired of your limited brain capacity.

Scholarios

03-05-2017, 08:13 AM

You do not want to listen because you have limited thinking capacity. I2a1 has been in Europe forever. Its one of the proto splits from cro magnons in Europe. The map is not mine it is direct from the sciencemag if you cared to look at the link.

I would not care if I shared slavic nor albanian ancestery, you are the only one that wants and needs it in typical marxist fashion - then twist it in a nationalistic ideology without looking at the facts. Enough tired of your limited brain capacity.

DO YOU COMPREHEND? I understand that I2a has been in Europe forever. HOWEVER the clade that is in Greece including the samples on the map I posted are Balto-Slavic in origin. NOT Neolithic Greek. ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER- DO YOU SPEAK IT? This is not a " maybe" but absolutely that i2a1b2 is in Greece and Albania* and* originates in Poland within historical times. 2200 years ago. There's no doubt it's origin if you aren't delusional like Laberia, a troll, or functionally illiterate.

How fucking hard is that to understand ? Even a golden dawn malakas like yourself must know that there were 15 Slavic-speaking villages within walking-distance of Thessaloniki within living memory.

Herr Abubu

03-05-2017, 08:18 AM

Influence is certainly there but it's mostly borrowings through interaction, not imposition which one would expect to see in such scenario. Your statement was baseless, simple as that, no evidence whatsoever. Once we get a descent database on our project from Tosks we will be able to tell exactly when their specific subclades expanded and how diverse they are, and I will be able to demonstrate it to you exactly how it unfolded - and I again am quite confident that I am right, that they entered early on, perhaps during first Bulgarian empire if not in their initial invasion, and expanded during early middle ages when Tosk tribes could be found far and wide in today's Greece (though going by few studies majority will most likely end up being under Z17855 with few Y4460 'Din S' and S17250 'Din N').

Haha, right, baseless. You're delusional like the rest of the Albanians here. Just about everything goes against you. Keep coping.