I2a1b-"Din" - Slavic or Paleolithic Balkan?

[Wrong]

Poll added :)

[Kelmendasi]

Slavic

[Hamlet]

Buhp

[Wrong]

Bronze Age Montenegrin(Illyrian) sample plots somewhere in the middle of the Albanian cluster(red dots). This wouldn't be the case if there was I2a1b-Din and R1a there back then which would bring it northeast at the modern Serbs and Croatians.


http://i.imgur.com/AtvElmW.png

[Wrong]

http://i.imgur.com/DBFs52N.jpg

[Wrong]

Yep

[Lek]

Slavic.

[Lek]

Slavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic
SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic. SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic

[Ülev]

slavicised VisiGothic

[catgeorge]

slavicised VisiGothic

Scythians morphed with I2a1

[cosmoo]

slavicised VisiGothic

More like East Germanic in general sense.
Def. not originally Slavic.

[Herr Abubu]

slavicised VisiGothic

Wouldn't it be Ostrogothic?

[Ülev]

Wouldn't it be Ostrogothic?

everything but not Slavic

[Dema]

Even Serbs on their project agree that was brought by Slavs on Balkan

[Wrong]

Slavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic
SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic. SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlav icSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic SlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSl avicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavicSlavic

[Leopard]

How about both.
I mean, there is absolutely zero proof of this "slavic migration" whatsoever.

[Ülev]

Even Serbs on their project agree that was brought by Slavs on Balkan

this is because they lived with Slavs and slavicised their language before came to other places, Slavs use word ogień/ohen etc for fire, Croats say vatra and their national football team is called "vatreni" = flaming/fiery, and their vocabulary has common words with old-Avestan language

[Dema]

How about both.
I mean, there is absolutely zero proof of this "slavic migration" whatsoever.

Are you crazy, every medieval document Greek and Roman describes Slavs coming on Balkan.



this is because they lived with Slavs and slavicised their language before came to other places, Slavs use word ogień/ohen etc for fire, Croats say vatra and their national football team is called "vatreni" = flaming/fiery, and their vocabulary has common words with old-Avestan language

Yes I2a1 were not originally Slavs, we all know that. They were Slavicized behind Carpathian mountains by R1a carriers.
What we are saying here is they arrived as Slavs in Balkan, when Slavic migrations took place 6th and 7th century.

[cosmoo]

Even Serbs on their project agree that was brought by Slavs on Balkan

They also agree it wasn't originally Slavic. They consider Bastarnae to be most probable pre-Slavicization bearers of it.
Also, as I have often explained before, it was most probably linguistically Slavicized a bit after arrival to Balkans.

[Dema]

They also agree it wasn't originally Slavic. They consider Bastarnae to be most probable pre-Slavicization bearers of it.
Also, as I have often explained before, it was most probably linguistically Slavicized a bit after arrival to Balkans.

Yes it was not originally Slavic as you can see that i agree with that on my previous post but i think there is no chance that I2a1b arrived as anything here but as a fully Slavic and Slavicized people.
Your theory of Slavicization on Balkan is really hard to swallow. We already discussed this i remember.

[Wrong]

There's only 2 options in the poll. Everything else is psuedo-science.

[cosmoo]

Yes it was not originally Slavic as you can see that i agree with that on my previous post but i think there is no chance that I2a1b arrived as anything here but as a fully Slavic and Slavicized people.
Your theory of Slavicization on Balkan is really hard to swallow. We already discussed this i remember.

I offered everyone here and on that project chance to explain how could it have been Slavicized before arrival to Balkans, considering its geographical distribution in Yugoslavia (I2a1b in mountainous, infertile areas, with R1a in fertile plains. Even in Montenegro, which has little R1a, it will immidiatelly pop up if you approach more fertile areas, like in old layers of Kuči and Bjelopavlići clans). No one offered even a single reasonable explanation so far.
In case it came with Slavs, it would be evenly distributed in comparison to R1a, but that's not the case. It is pretty clear that the later pushed former to the mountains.

[Dema]

I offered everyone here and on that project chance to explain how could it have been Slavicized before arrival to Balkans, considering its geographical distribution in Yugoslavia (I2a1b in mountainous, infertile areas, with R1a in fertile plains. Even in Montenegro, which has little R1a, it will immidiatelly pop up if you approach more fertile areas, like in old layers of Kuči and Bjelopavlići clans). No one offered even a single reasonable explanation so far.
In case it came with Slavs, it would be evenly distributed in comparison to R1a, but that's not the case. It is pretty clear that the later pushed former to the mountains.

Because we know that Slavs were first of all barbarians who permanently settled in Balkan. They were going for Dinaric Alps as that was primary objective for Slavs. From Dinaric Alps you can see Adriatic sea and all lands around it are very fertile.
And that is where we find biggest concentrations of I2a1b. It doesn't matter what distribution it has now. We know that original Slavs had more R1a then today. R1a was at least equal to I2a.
For some reason I2a took over and is becoming more and more dominant paternal line among S Slavs even tho at some time they were mixed with R1a and there was no big difference among these people, they were both Slavs crossing the Carpathian mountains.

Also we find I2a-Din on Balkan only there where Slavs have intruded. Deeper in Europe where Slavs never intruded there is barely any CTS 10228, and even if it is we again know that it also come from man living around Poland 2400 years ago.

R1a and I2a come combined and they were Slavs and they had for sure some more smaller haplotypers like some clades of N. There is no possibility that only R1a were Slavs who arrived on Balkan because I2a1 took place of where R1b, j2b and E1b used to be before Slavic arrival.

Look at map of R1b, there is reason why R1b is lacking just at areas which Slavs intruded just as there is reason why there is strongest presence of I2a1b and R1a there:
I2a1b arrived toghether with R1a and took lands of R1b and therefore also of E1b and J2b.

See R1b in Albania, Greece and Italy, but missing only in lands where Slavs (I2a, R1a) intruded.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png

[Dema]

Same with J2, missing only where Slavs intruded and where we find high concentration of I2a1b and R1a
While it goes naturally from Greece, Albania to Italy, only missing where Slavs intruded and now we find I2a1 there. Also we dont find I2a1b where Slavs have not intruded.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

[Wrong]

I2a1b-Din dates perfectly with the Slavic incursions of FYROM, South Albania and Greece.

[cosmoo]

Because we know that Slavs were first of all barbarians who permanently settled in Balkan. They were going for Dinaric Alps as that was primary objective for Slavs. From Dinaric Alps you can see Adriatic sea and all lands around it are very fertile.
And that is where we find biggest concentrations of I2a1b. It doesn't matter what distribution it has now. We know that original Slavs had more R1a then today. R1a was at least equal to I2a.
For some reason I2a took over and is becoming more and more dominant paternal line among S Slavs even tho at some time they were mixed with R1a and there was no big difference among these people, they were both Slavs crossing the Carpathian mountains.

Also we find I2a-Din on Balkan only there where Slavs have intruded. Deeper in Europe where Slavs never intruded there is barely any CTS 10228, and even if it is we again know that it also come from man living around Poland 2400 years ago.

R1a and I2a come combined and they were Slavs and they had for sure some more smaller haplotypers like some clades of N. There is no possibility that only R1a were Slavs who arrived on Balkan because I2a1 took place of where R1b, j2b and E1b used to be before Slavic arrival.

Look at map of R1b, there is reason why R1b is lacking just at areas which Slavs intruded just as there is reason why there is strongest presence of I2a1b and R1a there:
I2a1b arrived toghether with R1a and took lands of R1b and therefore also of E1b and J2b.

See R1b in Albania, Greece and Italy, but missing only in lands where Slavs (I2a, R1a) intruded.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png

Slavs were not really the first babarians to settle here. Jordanes and Procopius tell different story. As do Historia Salonitana and Ljetopis popa Dukljanina, two oldest south Slavic chronicles.
Your explanation is in domain of high fantasy. Land in Dinaric Alps is far from fertile. Ever been to Herzegovina?
I2a1b:R1a ratio in Herzegovina, for example, is 6:1, while among northern Slavs it is around 1:4. Going by your logic, every possible thing can be explained as a mere coincidence.

[cosmoo]

I2a1b-Din dates perfectly with the Slavic incursions of FYROM, South Albania and Greece.

Ken Nordtvedt estimated TMRCA at 2500 ybp in Poland, with sudden expansion starting 2000 ybp. None of those three factors (place, TMRCA date and expansion start) matches Slavs.

[Wrong]

Ken Nordtvedt estimated TMRCA at 2500 ybp in Poland, with sudden expansion starting 2000 ybp. None of those three factors (place, TMRCA date and expansion start) matches Slavs.Sudden expansion is due to Slavic movements southwards. The Gothic theory you like to claim is too far fetched and has no basic truth in it.

Goths were mostly I1, I2a2, R1b and R1a and also, quite a number of them had mingled with Huns near the Black Sea.

Goths originated from the island of Gotland, there are old tales from Gotland in Sweden about this, zero % I2a1b-"Din".

Here is I2a2 which Goths contained, basically zero % in South Slavs:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


I know some Albanians who score this I2a2, they are either descended from Goths or Normans.

[Dema]

Slavs were not really the first babarians to settle here. Jordanes and Procopius tell different story. As do Historia Salonitana and Ljetopis popa Dukljanina, two oldest south Slavic chronicles.
Your explanation is in domain of high fantasy. Land in Dinaric Alps is far from fertile. Ever been to Herzegovina?
I2a1b:R1a ratio in Herzegovina, for example, is 6:1, while among northern Slavs it is around 1:4. Going by your logic, every possible thing can be explained as a mere coincidence.

There were many barbarians but Slavs were the first who permanently settled in the area.
Procopius tells just what R1b map confirms it is extermination of native people by Slavs.. That is why there R1b lacks while I2a is most common along with R1a.

My explanation is very logical. There is no I2a1b found over the Rhine river where Slavs never intruded while we find it on all places where Slavs intruded. Also they got low TMRCA of 2400 years originating around Poland. Meaning all of them come from direction of Poland what goes just fine with how Slavs are documented in 6th and 7th century.

That was no accident in R1b map that R1b is lacking only where Slavs have intruded and we find it naturally in Italy, Greece and Albania. While there is all of the sudden now I2a there. I2a1b were the Slavs when they arrived on Balkan just as R1a were.

I2a1b has closest Ydna matches across the Carpathian mountains where are all Slavic (R1a) countries and there is no variations in I2a1b in Balkan, while across the Carpathian mountains they have variations and more diversety.

Also i know what is Hercegovina also i know that Dolina Neretve is not so far from Dinaric Alps and these are like most fertile lands on Balkan.

[Dick]

Sudden expansion is due to Slavic movements southwards. The Gothic theory you like to claim is too far fetched and has no basic truth in it.

Goths were mostly I1, I2a2, R1b and R1a and also, quite a number of them had mingled with Huns near the Black Sea.

Goths originated from the island of Gotland, there are old tales from Gotland in Sweden about this.

Here is I2a2 which Goths contained, basically zero % in South Slavs:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


I know some Albanians who score this, they are either descended from Goths or Normans.

I always thought historians confused Gotland and goths with Jutland and Jutes.

[Wrong]

I always thought historians confused Gotland and goths with Jutland and Jutes.Jutland is too far fetched to make sense. Gotland is in the perfect position and it's oral history.

In Ancient Norse, it's "Gutar" which is completely identical with the people called in Gotland.

[Dick]

Jutland is too far fetched to make sense. Gotland is in the perfect position and it's oral history.

Link to the oral history?

[Wrong]

Link to the oral history?Don't have time to look for it, there are plenty of references to Gotland. A Swedish member mentioned it on TA.

Gutnish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutnish) is still spoken in Gotland and Fårö (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A5r%C3%B6). Old Gutnish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Gutnish) was the dialect of Old Norse there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths

[cosmoo]

Sudden expansion is due to Slavic movements southwards. The Gothic theory you like to claim is too far fetched and has no basic truth in it.

Goths were mostly I1, I2a2, R1b and R1a and also, quite a number of them had mingled with Huns near the Black Sea.

Goths originated from the island of Gotland, there are old tales from Gotland in Sweden about this, zero % I2a1b-"Din".

Here is I2a2 which Goths contained, basically zero % in South Slavs:

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif


I know some Albanians who score this I2a2, they are either descended from Goths or Normans.

-Date of 2000 ybp can't be connected to Slavic expansion at all.
-No Gothic remains have been tested so far.
-Claims of Swedish origin are just a legend. Linguists suggest continental Germanic origin.
Plus, I2a1b was found among Gotland Pitted Ware culture samples that were tested. And Motala12 was positive on L147.2, Dinaric-defining SNP.
-Explain who were I2a1b Din bearers prior to Slavicization.

[Wrong]

-Date of 2000 ybp can't be connected to Slavic expansion at all.
-No Gothic remains have been tested so far.
-Claims of Swedish origin are just a legend. Linguists suggest continental Germanic origin.
Plus, I2a1b was found among Gotland Pitted Ware culture samples that were tested. And Motala12 was positive on L147.2, Dinaric-defining SNP.
-Explain who were I2a1b Din bearers prior to Slavicization.

Jordanes (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes) hävdade att goterna hade sitt ursprung (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goternas_ursprung) från en ö Scandza (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza), som identifieras med Skandinaviska halvön (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandinaviska_halv%C3%B6n). Gotiskan (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotiska) är det äldsta välbelagda germanska språket (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanska_spr%C3%A5k).

Jordanes claimed that the Goths originated from an island Scandza, as identified by the Scandinavian Peninsula. Gothic is the oldest välbelagda Germanic language.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goter


No continental Europe, nope.

[cosmoo]

There were many barbarians but Slavs were the first who permanently settled in the area.
Procopius tells just what R1b map confirms it is extermination of native people by Slavs.. That is why there R1b lacks while I2a is most common along with R1a.

My explanation is very logical. There is no I2a1b found over the Rhine river where Slavs never intruded while we find it on all places where Slavs intruded. Also they got low TMRCA of 2400 years originating around Poland. Meaning all of them come from direction of Poland what goes just fine with how Slavs are documented in 6th and 7th century.

That was no accident in R1b map that R1b is lacking only where Slavs have intruded and we find it naturally in Italy, Greece and Albania. While there is all of the sudden now I2a there. I2a1b were the Slavs when they arrived on Balkan just as R1a were.

I2a1b has closest Ydna matches across the Carpathian mountains where are all Slavic (R1a) countries and there is no variations in I2a1b in Balkan, while across the Carpathian mountains they have variations and more diversety.

Also i know what is Hercegovina also i know that Dolina Neretve is not so far from Dinaric Alps and these are like most fertile lands on Balkan.
Procopius tells in "History of Wars" that many Goths remained permanently settled in provinces of Dalmatia and Praevalis.

The reason for lack of I2a1b Dinaric west of Rhine is very simple: it's because it wasn't split from Disles back in then. Older I2a1b clades, Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are found predominantly in NW Europe, very rarely among Slavs.

[cosmoo]

Jordanes (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes) hävdade att goterna hade sitt ursprung (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goternas_ursprung) från en ö Scandza (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza), som identifieras med Skandinaviska halvön (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandinaviska_halv%C3%B6n). Gotiskan (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotiska) är det äldsta välbelagda germanska språket (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanska_spr%C3%A5k).

Jordanes claimed that the Goths originated from an island Scandza, as identified by the Scandinavian Peninsula. Gothic is the oldest välbelagda Germanic language.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goter


No continental Europe, nope.
Jordanes wrote many completely unfounded legends. Even if it was true, there is a L147.2+ sample from Mesolithic Sweden (Motala12).
Here is linguistic view on Gothic origin: http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art198e.pdf

[Wrong]

Jordanes wrote many completely unfounded legends. Even if it was true, there is a L147.2+ sample from Mesolithic Sweden (Motala12).
Here is linguistic view on Gothic origin: http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art198e.pdf

It would not make sense whatsoever, since I2a1b-Din is absent in Italy where Goths settled. Only I2a1b-Din found in Italy is from a recent Croatian minority.

While I2a2 has chiefly amounts across the country.

I2a1b-Din is completely absent in areas of Italy where Goths settled

http://i45.tinypic.com/m7qtt3.png

[Dema]

Procopius tells in "History of Wars" that many Goths remained permanently settled in provinces of Dalmatia and Praevalis.

The reason for lack of I2a1b Dinaric west of Rhine is very simple: it's because it wasn't split from Disles back in then. Older I2a1b clades, Isles and Disles (from which Dinaric split) are found predominantly in NW Europe, very rarely among Slavs.

They split more then 5000 years or more ago, so its obvious that Isles were NW while Dinaric was NE and Dinaric was Slavicized by R1a coming from that direction.
It doesn't matter really, what is obvious is that I2a arrived together with R1a and they were both Slavs. I gave you plenty of evidence.

TMRCA 2400 years does not have to be exact with Slavic migration but what is known for sure is that they were not for sure here longer then 2400 years.
And that they arrived from direction of Poland and other Slavophone countries.

[Wrong]

Slavic ethnogenesis/identity probably stems from I2a1b-carriers between the Baltics and Steppe getting conquered by Scythian R1a-carriers.

[Dick]

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page22


Similar thread at Eupedia.

[Dema]

Slavic ethnogenesis/identity probably stems from I2a1b-carriers between the Baltics and Steppe getting conquered by Scythian R1a-carriers.

I dont know is there enough evidence to connect R1a with Scythians Slavicizing I2a1b but for sure I2a1 got Slavicized over Carpathian mountains just like all Slavophone countries over there. They were Slavicized by some R1a dominant group of people.
Even TMRCA of 2400 years of I2a1b was most likely born as Slav.

Here is interesting article about some history and Slavicization also its interesting how Slavicization took over native Baltic languages. - http://erenow.com/ancient/thefalloftheromanempireanewhistory/27.html

[Wrong]

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page22


Similar thread at Eupedia.Yes, that one is from 2011, back when most south slavs "we wuz paleolithic balkan".

[Dick]

Yes, that one is from 2011, back when most south slavs "we wuz paleolithic balkan".

I didn't see the date. I searched google on the gothic theory of the subclade.

[Wrong]

I didn't see the date. I searched google on the gothic theory of the subclade.The date when the thread was created I meant. The dating and subclade diversal analysis started to come out later in those circles.

[Tschaikisten]

I2a - paleolithic Balkan
I2a1b Dinaric - Slavic
So simply for understand.

[Wrong]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by The Destroyer
how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?



:victory0:
:victory0:
:victory0:

[Deniz]

What's the percentage in Albania?Paleolithic or Dinaric?

[Dema]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by The Destroyer
how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?



:victory0:
:victory0:
:victory0:

Thats my conversation with Destroyer, i was so disappointed in him when he told me that.. Even worse he been to visit them and still believed they are real :(

[cosmoo]

It would not make sense whatsoever, since I2a1b-Din is absent in Italy where Goths settled. Only I2a1b-Din found in Italy is from a recent Croatian minority.

While I2a2 has chiefly amounts across the country.

I2a1b-Din is completely absent in areas of Italy where Goths settled
Explanation for this is fairly simple. Population of Italy numbered around 10 millions on the beginning on new era. When Goths came, that number was considerably bigger. Theoderic gathered 20.000 warriors in total (he couldn't rally enough Goths (who preferred staying in western Balkans, Thrace, and Ukraine, according to Herwig Wolfram), so he had to fill his ranks with Gepids, Rugii, Alans, etc.), and when we add rest of those that went with him, it sums up to a maximum of 100.000. If you do a bit of calculating, you will see that Goths were just drop in water when compared to native Italian population. They numbered less than one percent of total population when they came, and when we consider what Procopious wrote about total massacre of Goths which occured in Italy (in constrast to province of Dalmatia, where he said many settled permanently after the war), then you clearly see that there is no way at all that they could have left any genetic impact.

[Wrong]

Explanation for this is fairly simple.Again, pure coping.

Bump.

[Voskos]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D-6nuoa7WEE/UnTi5NgiNnI/AAAAAAAAQUc/xQzGLznEqCU/s1600/38_I.jpg

[cosmoo]

Again, pure coping.

Bump.

Whathever you like to call it won't change the facts.

[catgeorge]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D-6nuoa7WEE/UnTi5NgiNnI/AAAAAAAAQUc/xQzGLznEqCU/s1600/38_I.jpg

One of the reasons why Thessalian neolithic expansion was so fluid and quick is mainly because I + J are brothers and in some sense G are also related where I + J was already in Europe when G migrated. E(gypt) just got on board for the ride

http://www.geocities.ws/luis_aldamiz/prehistory/maps/-6000.gif

[Ülev]

Examples of the basal/paragroup Haplogroup IJ* (M429) were first reported in a 2012 study of genetic diversity in Iran, by Grugni et al. These individuals were reported to be positive for M429 and negative for the SNPs M170 and M304, which define haplogroup I and haplogroup J respectively. However, because the researchers filtered for relatively few SNPs, these individuals may have carried less well-known SNPs equivalent to M170 and M304.[4][5] Given the limited scope of the testing – and the small number of haplogroup IJ samples that were discovered – few firm conclusions have yet been drawn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_IJ#Origin

[DamCz]

100% Slavo-Gypo Y-DNA

[hazmatnik]

100% Slavo-Gypo Y-DNA

Yup, same as your ambassador to the UK Ilir Kapiti :rofl: I-S17250 who gladly blocked me when i asked him why he is that filthy Y haplogroup.

[DamCz]

One of the reasons why Thessalian neolithic expansion was so fluid and quick is mainly because I + J are brothers and in some sense G are also related where I + J was already in Europe when G migrated. E(gypt) just got on board for the ride

http://www.geocities.ws/luis_aldamiz/prehistory/maps/-6000.gif

Learn first what different branches and subclades are, the I2a1b in the Balkans today isn't from the mesolithic, hunter gatherers or neolithic people (which was most likely absorbed by the incoming Indo - Europeans or who knows what happened to them considering it's such a long time ago) , The I2a1b is Slavic and is a bottle neck most likely that came with R1a from Eastern Europe

[DamCz]

Yup, same as your ambassador to the UK Ilir Kapiti :rofl: I-S17250 who gladly blocked me when i asked him why he is that filthy Y haplogroup.

Most Albanians don't belong to this Y-DNA , but this is one of the most major lineages among Serbs, Croats, Bulgars etc together with R1a. Who also claim to be original inhabitants of the Balkans, speak a Slavo-Gypo language too that has it's origin in Czech Republic or the Carpathian basin.

In Albanians it probably came with invading tribes and was absorbed. Some areas have it more than others. It is what it is. I am J-L283 from fathers side, E-V13 from mothers side. None of them linked to any Slavs based on matches. ;)

[hazmatnik]

Most Albanians don't belong to this Y-DNA , but this is one of the most major lineages among Serbs, Croats, Bulgars etc together with R1a. Who also claim to be original inhabitants of the Balkans, speak a Slavo-Gypo language too that has it's origin in Czech Republic or the Carpathian basin.

In Albanians it probably came with invading tribes and was absorbed. Some areas have it more than others. It is what it is. I am J-L283 from fathers side, E-V13 from mothers side. None of them linked to any Slavs based on matches. ;)

But ambassador in one of for you most important countries is of Serb origin (from village of Kapit based on his last name which is very close to my village) and he is ashamed of that! Is that right?

[DamCz]

These are some statistics

Shqiptarët 1695

27.7 E-V13
19.8 R-M269
15.6 J-L283
7.4 I-Y3120
6.8 R-M417
4.7 I-M253
5.2 J-M410
2.8
2.7
1.5
1.1


https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/ in the Malsi this Sllavo-Gypo YDNa is almost non-existant interesting enough

[hazmatnik]

These are some statistics

Shqiptarët 1695

27.7 E-V13
19.8 R-M269
15.6 J-L283
7.4 I-Y3120
6.8 R-M417
4.7 I-M253
5.2 J-M410
2.8
2.7
1.5
1.1


https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/ in the Malsi this Sllavo-Gypo YDNa is almost non-existant interesting enough

I don't need your statistics i'm one of the biggest donors to Rrënjët. I'm pretty much into the matter.

[Far_away]

Ancient Greek