Genetics of the Peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponnesean

[Tacitus]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201718a.html


Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population.

[Era]

Mostly greek researchers suggest a sample bias, this is too politically motivated for them.

[Tacitus]

Mostly greek researchers suggest a sample bias, this is too politically motivated for them.

I think, given the constant battles over Greek history on TA, it's an interesting study to throw into the mix. The authors do note that there was Slavic settlement in the Peloponnese but their numbers were not as large as historical documents might suggest:

It is clear that the Slavs settled in Peloponnese, as the quantitative measurements of Slavic ancestry indicate (Tables 2 and 3). It also seems that their numbers were relatively small compared to the size of the local population as the low levels of Slavic ancestry of the Peloponnesean populations indicate.

In his book on the Administration of the Empire22 Constantin Porphyrogenitua describes the wars between the Byzantines and two Slavic tribes, who initially had settled the lowland Laconia but were forced to withdraw to the security of the slopes of the mount Tayetos, in order to avoid subjugation to Byzantine rule. Porphyrogenitus tells us that the slopes of Tayetos were Slavic lands; however, our analyses show low levels of Slavic ancestry in the populations of Tayetos. The most reasonable interpretation for the discrepancy between the medieval text and the genetic data is that the size of the Slavic settlements in the slopes of Tayetos was small and the Slavic population was diluted by migrations from Deep Mani during the subsequent centuries. Despite its inhospitable environment, Deep Mani was densely populated29 and there is historical evidence for high mobility and migrations of Maniots.30 A gene flow path from Deep Mani to the slopes of Tayetos is also suggested by our PCA analysis and the correlations between geographic coordinates and principal components.

In that vein, I'm interested in Scholarios Chiotis's thoughts on the matter should he see this thread, seeing that he's half-Peloponnesian.

[Tacitus]

Methodology:

The study has been reviewed by the Institutional Review Board of the University of Washington and the ethical committees of several provisional hospitals. We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. In the 1861 census the population of Peloponnese was 578 598 individuals. At that time the economy of Peloponnese was exclusively agricultural and over 85% of the population was living in small villages and hamlets. We sampled all the districts of Peloponnese (Figure 1a and Supplementary Table 1) and also focused on two culturally distinct subpopulations, the Tsacones and the Maniots. To compare the Peloponneseans with other populations we analyzed samples from published data sets and data sets generated by our studies (Supplementary Table 2 and Supplementary Figure 1). Merging genotypes from different sources and quality control were done as described.11

[Coolguy1]

Both my parents are from the slopes of the Taygetos and my gedmatch results are nearly identical to that of other mainland Greeks. What the study says is true, Mani and Tsakonia were very heavily populated during the middle ages and served as refuge regions for Greeks displaced by Slavs. After some centuries the Slavs were removed and Maniots and Tsakones repopulated the land. Many Cretans also fled to Mani after the fall of Chania, and then later dispersed throughout the rest of the region. My paternal line is from there.

[Sikeliot]

Peloponnese was REPOPULATED by Sicilians, Cretans, Dodecanese, and Anatolian Greeks. So no, they are NOT the medieval population in part but they're not significantly Slavic either. This is why they are similar to Sicilians. But they still do have more North European admixture than them, though less than northern Greece.

A lot of southern Peloponnesian surnames are also ending in -akis.

[Sikeliot]

This here shows that Sicilians have more West Euro than Peloponnesians (see the RIGHT chart with only West Euros included) while Peloponnesians have more East Euro than Sicilians (see the LEFT chart with East Euro affinity measured).

http://i68.tinypic.com/8y6bh5.jpg

[Peterski]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204855-Cheeki-Breeki

[Sikeliot]

The 14.4% Slavic in some Peloponnesians does show on the left chart above.. those are the people who drift away from the Sicilians.

[Tacitus]

Peloponnese was REPOPULATED by Sicilians, Cretans, Dodecanese, and Anatolian Greeks. So no, they are NOT the medieval population in part but they're not significantly Slavic either. This is why they are similar to Sicilians. But they still do have more North European admixture than them, though less than northern Greece.

A lot of southern Peloponnesian surnames are also ending in -akis.

Put a time frame on that; Sorcelow already mentioned Cretans in Mani (as did the paper), but what about the others (Dodecanese, Anatolians, Sicilians).

[Sikeliot]

Put a time frame on that; Sorcelow already mentioned Cretans in Mani (as did the paper), but what about the others (Dodecanese, Anatolians, Sicilians).

Sicilians and Calabrese were brought to the Peloponnese to replace the expelled Slavs. I'd go so far as to say Peloponnesians are more Sicilian than the reverse.

What is evident to me is what I said above: Sicilians have more Sardinian/Iberian-like affinity, while Peloponnesians do indeed have more Slavic, even though the paper concludes it is small. The two roughly cancel out.

I think in general though it can be concluded that Peloponnesians, Sicilians, and Cretans are all fairly close. What I want to see is islands other than the Dodecanese studied, who I suspect will also be very close to Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

Also important to note, the Sicilian sample is SOUTHEAST (i.e. "Ancient Greek") Sicily. What this is saying is people from southern Peloponnese and from Ragusa/Syracuse are 90%+ similar. I doubt the similarity would be as high if the Sicilians were Palermitan, from Caltanissetta, or from Agrigento where there is a small amount of extra Near Eastern (see this example: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204864).

So apparently: Peloponnesians have less than 15% Slavic ancestry (still more than Hellenas claims) while they can share with Italians up to 96% (I bet the 96% are 'Deep Mani' sample and match to the Sicilian sample which is SE Sicily). Those sharing only 85% with Italy, clearly are the Slavicized ones! And there is otherwise very little affinity to Slavs nor to MENAs.

"The results of Table 2 show that there is considerably more shared ancestry between the Peloponneseans and the French, Andalusians and Italians compared to the shared ancestry between the Peloponneseans and the Slavic populations. The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%"

[Sikeliot]

I'd like to see a similar study for Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia, etc. where I think the Slavic would be considerably higher.

[Tacitus]

Also important to note, the Sicilian sample is SOUTHEAST (i.e. "Ancient Greek") Sicily. What this is saying is people from southern Peloponnese and from Ragusa/Syracuse are 90%+ similar.

So apparently: Peloponnesians have less than 15% Slavic ancestry (still more than Hellenas claims) while they can share with Italians up to 96% (I bet the 96% are 'Deep Mani' sample and match to the Sicilian sample which is SE Sicily). Those sharing only 85% with Italy, clearly are the Slavicized ones! And there is otherwise very little affinity to Slavs nor to MENAs.

"The results of Table 2 show that there is considerably more shared ancestry between the Peloponneseans and the French, Andalusians and Italians compared to the shared ancestry between the Peloponneseans and the Slavic populations. The average shared ancestry with French ranges from 39 to 42%; with Andalusians from 53 to 62%; and with the Italians from 85 to 96%. In contrast, the average shared ancestry with the Slavic populations is always <15%"

Where does it say that? The citations for the Italian/Sicilian links are from Cavalli-Sforza (1994), Di Gaetano (2009), and Fiorito (2016). Not Paschou (2013).

[Sikeliot]

But what must still be emphasized is this: the difference that DOES exist between Italy and Peloponnese, the 4-15% difference, is ultimately the amount of Slavic DNA Peloponnesians do have.

I expected it to be higher, but at least we can quantify it now.

[Sikeliot]

Where does it say that? The citations for the Italian/Sicilian links are from Cavalli-Sforza (2004), Di Gaetano (2009), and Fiorito (2016).

I thought it was the Syracusan sample from Paschou et al.

I guess I also should reconsider now when I say Peloponnesians have nothing to do with the Spanish, since they also share a lot of ancestry with Spain, and very little with Slavs and MENAs.

[Sikeliot]

Where does it say that? The citations for the Italian/Sicilian links are from Cavalli-Sforza (2004), Di Gaetano (2009), and Fiorito (2016). Not Paschou (2013).

Ok so if it is not the sample from Paschou, then it may not be Syracusans.

[Tacitus]

I thought it was the Syracusan sample from Paschou et al.

Nope, while I don't know where the Fiorito or the Cavalli-Sforza samples were from Di Gaetano's came from all over Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

Both my parents are from the slopes of the Taygetos and my gedmatch results are nearly identical to that of other mainland Greeks.

This is where I am skeptical of the study then, because your results are quite far from Sicilians, despite the study implying you should be similar to one.

[Sikeliot]

Nope, while I don't know where the Fiorito or the Cavalli-Sforza samples were from Di Gaetano's came from all over Sicily.

Do you acknowledge the 4-15% of Peloponnesian DNA *not* matching Sicilians, is their Slavic shift?

I'd like to see a similar study on Sicilians, Cretans, and other Aegean islanders to determine what amount of their ancestry is MENA affinity in excess of Greece.

Though I realize the similarity measured is to *Italians* as a whole, not just to Sicilians here. So it is not accurate to say Laconians are 96% similar to Sicilians, it is saying to Italians, including all of the Italian samples.

[Tacitus]

Do you acknowledge the 4-15% of Peloponnesian DNA *not* matching Sicilians, is their Slavic shift?

I'd like to see a similar study on Sicilians, Cretans, and other Aegean islanders to determine what amount of their ancestry is MENA affinity in excess of Greece.

I never denied higher "Slavic"/NE Euro input in the Peloponnese compared to Sicily, I contested how high you made it seem to appear.

[Sikeliot]

I never denied higher "Slavic"/NE Euro input in the Peloponnese compared to Sicily, I contested how high you made it seem to appear.

Well now we can quantify it -- 4-15%. :lol: My guess is people from Epirus, Thessaly, and Macedonia will be significantly more Slavicized. Anyway we already knew people in the southernmost Peloponnese are close to Sicilians and Cretans because Paschou et al. determined this... though I attribute this in part to Sicilian and Cretan input in the Peloponnese.

I just want to know the origin of the Sicilian samples because I know from GEDmatch and 23andme that some Sicilians, especially from Syracuse and Ragusa, do in fact come up very close to Peloponnesian Greeks on MDLP K23, but this is not the case for the deep inland regions or coastal west which are closer to Malta and Ashkenazim, nor NE Sicily which seems close to Dodecanese.

I accessed a GEDmatch ID today from Caltanissetta and based on that result, it is highly doubtful to me they'd plot with Peloponnesians.

Though I guess this can only be answered with island-wide samples and a similar study.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Peloponnese was REPOPULATED by Sicilians, Cretans, Dodecanese, and Anatolian Greeks. So no, they are NOT the medieval population in part but they're not significantly Slavic either. This is why they are similar to Sicilians. But they still do have more North European admixture than them, though less than northern Greece.

A lot of southern Peloponnesian surnames are also ending in -akis.

There were many descents of the pre medieval inhabitants, plus most of the big cities were never depopulated, see Patras.

As for the repopulation, it was mainly from nearby islands, such as argosaronic, cyclades and Ionian islands, neither from Crete (which was occupied by Arabs during these repopulations) nor from Dodecanese (which were also kinda depopulated due to invasions of Saracen pirates). A theory says that most of them were pelloponesian refugees themselves.

As for surnames ending in akis, you can find them in Thessaloniki too.

also, you should know that many parts of both northern and Central Greece, and even more in thessaly suffered much less from Slavic invasions, so there's technically no part of the country with more than 5-10% Slavic admixture.

[Sikeliot]

There were many descents of the pre medieval inhabitants, plus most of the big cities were never depopulated, see Patras.

As for the repopulation, it was mainly from nearby islands, such as argosaronic, cyclades and Ionian islands, neither from Crete (which was occupied by Arabs during these repopulations) nor from Dodecanese (which were also kinda depopulated due to invasions of Saracen pirates). A theory says that most of them were pelloponesian refugees themselves.

As for surnames ending in akis, you can find them in Thessaloniki too.

So I guess the conclusion from this is, Peloponnesians are similar to Italians but with a minor degree of Slavic ancestry that differentiates them. We can at least agree on this moving forward. I'd suspect those with the least Slavic ancestry will be more or less close to Cyclades, Cretans, Sicilians and so on.

[Sikeliot]

so what I have to ask is this: the least Slavic of all -- deep Mani -- was found to have "no significant relationship" to Lebanese Maronites. I suspect this population of Maniots would be similar autosomally to Sicily and the Aegean.

Does this mean Sicilians, too, should have no significant Levantine affinity? Or would it be different?

[brennus dux gallorum]

So I guess the conclusion from this is, Peloponnesians are similar to Italians but with a minor degree of Slavic ancestry that differentiates them. We can at least agree on this moving forward. I'd suspect those with the least Slavic ancestry will be more or less close to Cyclades, Cretans, Sicilians and so on.

Something like that, maybe with other northern admixtures too, as Northwestern influence is slightly higher than northeastern, and northwestern or northwestern mixed invaders and settlers who are recorded were more than Slavs, see Franks, Venetians, or earlier Celts (as early as 3rd BC century) or British and Scandinavian mercenaries in medieval Greece.

Also, Rhodians are probably the only directly untouched by Slavs people in Greece, and I say directly, cause later immigrations obviously carried Slavic admixture there too.

[Sikeliot]

Something like that, maybe with other northern admixtures too, as Northwestern influence is slightly higher than northeastern, and northwestern or northwestern mixed invaders and settlers who are recorded were more than Slavs.

Also, Rhodians are probably the only directly untouched by Slavs people in Greece, and I say directly, cause later immigrations obviously carried Slavic admixture there too.

Rhodians have other influences though, from what is now Turkey. Still, the Rhodian Greek results I've seen are close to Sicily/Calabria too.

I suspect Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and Epirus would be 20%+ Slavic.

[Coolguy1]

This is where I am skeptical of the study then, because your results are quite far from Sicilians, despite the study implying you should be similar to one.

Sikeliot, this study measured the IBD of the Peloponnesian population, not the autosomal results. The study concludes that the ancestry that Pelopponesians and Slavs share is not very significant which leads me to believe that this northern ancestry has to predate the Slavic migrations.

[catgeorge]

Rhodians have other influences though, from what is now Turkey. Still, the Rhodian Greek results I've seen are close to Sicily/Calabria too.

I suspect Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and Epirus would be 20%+ Slavic.

But Hellenic the other way is impossible despite their mediteranan and alpine phenos.. you can pull the other one.

Latvia is probably one of the purest "Slavic" nations.

38 percent of Latvian men belong to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1. The common European haplogroup R1b was discovered in 12 percent of Latvian men. Rounding out the list of Latvian Y-DNA haplogroups are I1 (6%), I2a (1%), I2b (1%), J2 (0.5%), E1b1b (0.5%), Q (0.5%), and T (0.5%).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16759178

I am sorry but this type mixtures does not exist in South Europe.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Rhodians have other influences though, from what is now Turkey. Still, the Rhodian Greek results I've seen are close to Sicily/Calabria too.



I suspect Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and Epirus would be 20%+ Slavic.

considering that 20%+ is not even among South Slavs, then that's impossible, at least for thessaly which has very few slavic toponymes and archaeological documents suggest no much slavic activity.

As for Thrace I have not seen any study yet. Most of its inhabitants are Pontic Greeks now, this is an example of a native Thracian

https://www.ticketservices.gr/pictures/b/b_1484_aidon2.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, this study measured the IBD of the Peloponnesian population, not the autosomal results. The study concludes that the ancestry that Pelopponesians and Slavs share is not very significant which leads me to believe that this northern ancestry has to predate the Slavic migrations.

Oh I see. I'd have liked to see IBD sharing between Peloponnesians and Sicilians because "Italians" includes Tuscans and other central Italians.

I'd also like to see a study on Sicilians to see if it detects Levantine affinity, because it determined in this study there is almost none in the Peloponnesians.

[catgeorge]

considering that 20%+ is not even among South Slavs, then that's impossible, at least for thessaly which has very few slavic toponymes and archaeological documents suggest no much slavic activity.

As for Thrace I have not seen any study yet. Most of its inhabitants are Pontic Greeks now, this is an example of a native Thracian

https://www.ticketservices.gr/pictures/b/b_1484_aidon2.jpg

Or even worse...a Thracian/Epirot mix

http://www.sinergasia.gr/uplds/585_1_tsipras.jpg

As far as I am concerned Sikeliot can claim this clown as his bretheren

[Sikeliot]

considering that 20%+ is not even among South Slavs, then that's impossible, at least for thessaly which has very few slavic toponymes and archaeological documents suggest no much slavic activity.

So if we now can assume based on this study that Peloponnesians are like Sicilians + some minor amount of Slavic, does this mean that pre-Slavic Peloponnesians were similar to modern Sicilians, Cretans, etc?

[Sikeliot]

Or even worse...a Thracian/Epirot mix

http://www.sinergasia.gr/uplds/585_1_tsipras.jpg

As far as I am concerned Sikeliot can claim this clown as his bretheren

Why would I claim him? He doesn't look like one of mine with his far-spaced eyes and toad-like features.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Or even worse...a Thracian/Epirot mix

http://www.sinergasia.gr/uplds/585_1_tsipras.jpg

As far as I am concerned Sikeliot can claim this clown as his bretheren
He is actually from Kavala (half), Not thrace but still close to Thrace :)

[Sikeliot]

Can someone please answer my question:

If the study implies the least Slavicized Peloponnesians are close to Sicilians, and those same Peloponnesians had no detectable affinity to Lebanese Maronites, does this mean they would have found Sicilians, too, to have no affinity to Maronites?

[brennus dux gallorum]

So if we now can assume based on this study that Peloponnesians are like Sicilians + some minor amount of Slavic, does this mean that pre-Slavic Peloponnesians were similar to modern Sicilians, Cretans, etc?

Not at all, as both Cretans and Sicilians (the first including slavic adm.) have changed not to a lesser degree than Pelloponesians

[catgeorge]

This is a pure Thracian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA3g53xkHGM

[Sikeliot]

Not at all, as both Cretans and Sicilians (the first including slavic adm.) have changed not to a lesser degree than Pelloponesians

I guess to determine what is the case for those populations, we'd need a study about them like this. what is difficult here is determining of that 85-96% similarity to Italians, if it is moreso to Tuscans or Sicilians since the study groups them in one!

Here is a Sicilian result from a region that has been isolated and is locked deep inland, please contribute because I'd like your input: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204864

[brennus dux gallorum]

This is a pure Thracian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA3g53xkHGM

http://rethemnosnews.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/fra.jpg

this one too
http://www.rythmosfm.gr/userfiles/54f7af00-b7cb-4acd-bbe3-a20e00a09c9e/mixalis%20kouinelis%20rythmos.jpg

[Sikeliot]

The other thing to keep in mind is this: Sicilians today have Lombard, mainland Italian, and Norman influence. While we can attribute some of the remaining gap between Peloponnesians and Sicilians to Slavicization and other Northern influences in Greece, these northern influences in Sicilians bring them closer.

Meaning that we can't say "Peloponnesians would have been like Sicilians if not Slavicized" because what we REALLY mean is "Peloponnesians without Slavic genes are close to Sicilians WITH Norman, Lombard, Italian influence."

Once you remove those influences from Sicily, you have a near Cypriot population left. So in ancient times, Peloponnesians may have been close to Sicilians now, and Sicilians closer to what Cypriots are now.

[catgeorge]

Slavs." Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, Volume 3, pp. 1916-1919.


According to historical documents, the Slavs invaded and settled in parts of Greece beginning in 579 and Byzantium nearly lost control of the entire peninsula during the 580s. However, there is no archaeological evidence indicating Slavic penetration of imperial Byzantine territories before the end of the 6th century. Overall, traces of Slavic culture in Greece are very rare.


Hagia Sophia, Thessaloniki (8th century)

Scenes of marriage and family life in Constantinople.
The city of Thessaloniki remained unconquered even after being attacked by the Slavs around 615. The Slavs were eventually defeated, gathered by the Byzantines and placed into segregated communities known as Sclavinae. During the early 7th century, Constans II made the first mass-expulsions of Slavs from the Greek peninsula to the Balkans and central Asia Minor. Justinian II defeated and destroyed most of the Sclaviniae, and moved as many as 350,000–400,000 Slavs from the Greek peninsula to Bithynia, while he enlisted some 30,000 Slavs in his army.

The Slavic populations that were placed in these segregated communities were used for military campaigns against the enemies of the Byzantines. In the Peloponnese, more Slavic invaders brought disorder to the western part of the peninsula, while the eastern part remained firmly under Byzantine domination. Empress Irene organised a military campaign which liberated those territories and restored Byzantine rule to the region, but it was not until emperor Nicephorus I's resettlement of some rural areas of Peloponnese with Greek-speakers from southern Italy, that the last trace of Slavic element was eliminated.

In the mid-7th century, the empire was reorganized into "themes" by the Emperor Constans II, including the Theme of Thrace, the naval Karabisianoi corps in southern Greece and the Aegean islands. The Karabisanoi were later divided by Justinian II into the Theme of Hellas (centred on Corinth) and the Cibyrrhaeotic Theme By this time, the Slavs were no longer a threat to the Byzantines since they had been either defeated numerous times or placed in the Sclaviniae. The Slavic communities in Bithynia were destroyed by the Byzantines after General Leontios lost to the Arabs in the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692 as a result of the Slavs having defected to the Arab side.


The genetic examination goes against history.

[Sikeliot]

The genetic examination goes against history.

So you're saying the study is wrong and there is no Slavic DNA in Peloponnesians?

Also, what you just quoted demonstrates my point: Peloponnese was repopulated from southern Italy.

[catgeorge]

So you're saying the study is wrong and there is no Slavic DNA in Peloponnesians?

Also, what you just quoted demonstrates my point: Peloponnese was repopulated from southern Italy.

The time line of these settlements is approximately two generations before their expulsion and therefore any genetic imprint would have been miniscule to begin with... we are only talking about a portion of Peloponessos not the entire peninsula as stated in the historical study. Greek world re populating areas is nothing new - there are written accounts Maniots were partly repopulated by Smyrnians and some Islanders.

[Sikeliot]

The time line of these settlements is approximately two generations before their expulsion and therefore any genetic imprint would have been miniscule to begin with... we are only talking about a portion of Peloponessos not the entire peninsula as stated in the historical study. Greek world re populating areas is nothing new - there are written accounts Maniots were partly repopulated by Smyrnians and some Islanders.

My point was that Peloponnesians may be close to Sicilians and Cretans because they descend in part from them.

[catgeorge]

My point was that Peloponnesians may be close to Sicilians and Cretans because they descend in part from them.

There are plenty of example from neolithic of reverse migrations forced or not forced and this is just one example.

[Sikeliot]

No one has answered my question so I am going to ask it again:

The least Slavicized Maniots have no Levantine affinity. They are close to Sicilians. Would this study have similarly found there to be no Levantine affinity in Sicily?

This plot is telling. The Peloponnesians plotting with the Sicilians are the ones without much Slavic at all, likely those southernmost Maniots and Laconians:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2wq67hg.jpg

[Coolguy1]

No one has answered my question so I am going to ask it again:

The least Slavicized Maniots have no Levantine affinity. They are close to Sicilians. Would this study have similarly found there to be no Levantine affinity in Sicily?

This plot is telling. The Peloponnesians plotting with the Sicilians are the ones without much Slavic at all, likely those southernmost Maniots and Laconians:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2wq67hg.jpg

Sikeliot of course there is still some Slavic genes in Peloponnesians, but the study found that the average in all regions was well below 15% shared ancestry.

[Voskos]

I don't see anything surprising here. Greece was never a slavic country and will not become one just because fallmerayer liked the idea of it.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot of course there is still some Slavic genes in Peloponnesians, but the study found that the average in all regions was well below 15% shared ancestry.

What I am saying is on that plot, the ones who overlap with Sicilians are likely those with the very least Slavic ("Deep Mani" region and others similar).

[Sikeliot]

I don't see anything surprising here. Greece was never a slavic country and will not become one just because fallmerayer liked the idea of it.

Do you think it makes sense to view the southernmost plotting Peloponnesians as intersecting with Sicily, Crete, and so on? That seems to be the implication. I'd be curious if you view this as due to repopulation of the Peloponnese from southern Italy and the Aegean islands.

With that said, there is evidence of low-level Slavic admixture, and this explains the subset of Peloponnesians there who are NOT plotting with Sicily. Though we also must remember, those Sicilians have been shifted north by Normans, Lombards, etc. so if you took those away, they would not plot with Peloponnese either.

[Coolguy1]

What I am saying is on that plot, the ones who overlap with Sicilians are likely those with the very least Slavic ("Deep Mani" region and others similar).

Yeah thats plausible, as I said Mani was a safe haven for Greeks fleeing from Slavs, its only logical that Maniots have less slavic ancestry. What did the study say again, Maniots share less than 1% of their ancestry with slavs?

[Sikeliot]

Yeah thats plausible, as I said Mani was a safe haven for Greeks fleeing from Slavs, its only logical that Maniots have less slavic ancestry. What did the study say again, Maniots share less than 1% of their ancestry with slavs?

Yes. The 5 "distinct" regions are likely those on the plot who are directly overlapping with Sicily... those who are moving toward the other Italians and Europeans must be those with more.

[Voskos]

Do you think it makes sense to view the southernmost plotting Peloponnesians as intersecting with Sicily, Crete, and so on? That seems to be the implication. I'd be curious if you view this as due to repopulation of the Peloponnese from southern Italy and the Aegean islands.

With that said, there is evidence of low-level Slavic admixture, and this explains the subset of Peloponnesians there who are NOT plotting with Sicily. Though we also must remember, those Sicilians have been shifted north by Normans, Lombards, etc. so if you took those away, they would not plot with Peloponnese either.


I'd be curious if you view this as due to repopulation of the Peloponnese from southern Italy and the Aegean islands.

most IBD analyses don't support such a theory


Do you think it makes sense to view the southernmost plotting Peloponnesians as intersecting with Sicily, Crete, and so on?

depends, they have less Near Eastern ancestry than both Crete and sicily.but the source populations were probably the same


those Sicilians have been shifted north by Normans, Lombards

I agree, though the impact of Normans was minimal

[Sikeliot]

most IBD analyses don't support such a theory

I think this one does. Though we also cannot see how much IBD sharing is with Sicily vs Tuscany and Central Italy because they are grouped into one.


depends, they have less Near Eastern ancestry than both Crete and sicily.but the source populations were probably the same

Yes. It seems to me one can say the most 'Near Eastern' Peloponnesians plot with the most 'European' Sicilians, hence the plot I just posted on the past page.


I agree, though the impact of Normans was minimal

Yes. But it implies a West Euro input in Peloponnesians, because some Peloponnese are plotting with post-Norman Sicilians.

[Voskos]

...

the IBD sharing table doesnt seem to include sicilians , it only measures relatedness between different Peloponnesian groups

[Sikeliot]

the IBD sharing table doesnt seem to include sicilians , it only measures relatedness between different Peloponnesian groups

I mean the 85-96% similarity to "Italians". I'd like to see it for Peloponnesians vs each Italian region separately.

[Voskos]

I mean the 85-96% similarity to "Italians". I'd like to see it for Peloponnesians vs each Italian region separately.

yeah they're basically identical to italians.


each Italian region separately.

ah i got it now.well you can check the pca plot

[Coolguy1]

I mean the 85-96% similarity to "Italians". I'd like to see it for Peloponnesians vs each Italian region separately.

This is why Greeks feel closer to Italians than other Balkanites, we are genetically nearly identical.

[Sikeliot]

ah i got it now.well you can check the pca plot

From what I gather most Peloponnesians fill the gap between the Tuscan and Sicilian clusters, likely due to having an amount of Near Eastern that is intermediate between the two. The "distinct" regions like Tsakonians and southern Maniots are closer to Sicilians and islanders.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I mean the 85-96% similarity to "Italians". I'd like to see it for Peloponnesians vs each Italian region separately.

My guess is that Pelloponesians shift closer to Abruzzo. Central Greece overlaps this region and thessaly is near Tuscany

[Sikeliot]

This is why Greeks feel closer to Italians than other Balkanites, we are genetically nearly identical.

My point however is, that amount is combined of all Italian regions. I want to know what extent they share with Tuscans and what extent with Sicilians separately.

[Sikeliot]

My guess is that Pelloponesians shift closer to Abruzzo. Central Greece overlaps this region and thessaly is near Tuscany

I think if Abruzzese were on the PCA plot, they'd be more overlapping with Peloponnesians than the Sicilians are.

[Coolguy1]

My point however is, that amount is combined of all Italian regions. I want to know what extent they share with Tuscans and what extent with Sicilians separately.

I would expect the overlap with Sicily would be greater. Sikeliot, it seems that IBD is the most accurate way to measure ancestry and foreign admixture, gedmatch tests seem to be kinda bullshit and pseudoscience.

[Sikeliot]

I would expect the overlap with Sicily would be greater. Sikeliot, it seems that IBD is the most accurate way to measure ancestry and foreign admixture, gedmatch tests seem to be kinda bullshit and pseudoscience.

So you honestly believe despite GEDmatch and 23andme telling you otherwise, 96% of your DNA is shared with Sicilians?

Even on this study Peloponnesians shift north of Sicilians.

[Coolguy1]

So you honestly believe despite GEDmatch and 23andme telling you otherwise, 96% of your DNA is shared with Sicilians?

IBD is actual science, and that 96% figure is the extreme end from individuals from deep Mani. I would expect the actual perentage for Peloponnese is general would be lower than that.

[Sikeliot]

So again no one has answered my question:

The least Slavicized Peloponnesians plot near Sicilians and have no Levantine affinity. Would Sicilians, too, display no Levantine affinity?

[Sikeliot]

IBD is actual science, and that 96% figure is the extreme end from individuals from deep Mani. I would expect the actual perentage for Peloponnese is general would be lower than that.

I personally think yours would be in the high 80%s.

The 96% is far southern Peloponnese (Mani and whereabouts).

[Sikeliot]

Here is a Eurogenes K15 for a person from "deep Mani":

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.78
2 West_Med 18.33
3 North_Sea 13.65
4 West_Asian 12.04
5 Baltic 9.97
6 Atlantic 8.07
7 Eastern_Euro 7.01
8 Red_Sea 3.07
9 Oceanian 0.88
10 Northeast_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.62
2 Central_Greek 7.66
3 Ashkenazi 8.02
4 Greek 8.33
5 East_Sicilian 8.79
6 Italian_Abruzzo 10.29
7 South_Italian 10.38
8 West_Sicilian 11.33
9 Tuscan 12.69
10 Italian_Jewish 13.15
11 Bulgarian 13.33
12 Algerian_Jewish 14.59
13 Sephardic_Jewish 15.08
14 Romanian 15.12
15 Libyan_Jewish 17.49
16 North_Italian 17.68
17 Serbian 17.99
18 Tunisian_Jewish 18.32
19 Cyprian 18.78
20 Turkish 21.77

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.31
2 87.9% Greek_Thessaly + 12.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.38
3 84.2% Greek_Thessaly + 15.8% Cyprian @ 4.45
4 87.7% Greek_Thessaly + 12.3% Samaritan @ 4.47
5 83.7% Greek_Thessaly + 16.3% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.55
6 90% Greek_Thessaly + 10% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.7
7 89.7% Greek_Thessaly + 10.3% Palestinian @ 4.77
8 88.2% Greek_Thessaly + 11.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.83
9 89.6% Greek_Thessaly + 10.4% Jordanian @ 4.83
10 90.8% Greek_Thessaly + 9.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.87
11 90.4% Greek_Thessaly + 9.6% Assyrian @ 4.9
12 81.7% Greek_Thessaly + 18.3% Italian_Jewish @ 4.91
13 83.6% Greek_Thessaly + 16.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.94
14 93.6% Greek_Thessaly + 6.4% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.94
15 89.3% Greek_Thessaly + 10.7% Syrian @ 4.95
16 87.5% Greek_Thessaly + 12.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.03
17 92.2% Greek_Thessaly + 7.8% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.12
18 92.3% Greek_Thessaly + 7.7% Armenian @ 5.13
19 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Egyptian @ 5.16
20 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Bedouin @ 5.18

[Coolguy1]

Here is a Eurogenes K15 for a person from "deep Mani":

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.78
2 West_Med 18.33
3 North_Sea 13.65
4 West_Asian 12.04
5 Baltic 9.97
6 Atlantic 8.07
7 Eastern_Euro 7.01
8 Red_Sea 3.07
9 Oceanian 0.88
10 Northeast_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 5.62
2 Central_Greek 7.66
3 Ashkenazi 8.02
4 Greek 8.33
5 East_Sicilian 8.79
6 Italian_Abruzzo 10.29
7 South_Italian 10.38
8 West_Sicilian 11.33
9 Tuscan 12.69
10 Italian_Jewish 13.15
11 Bulgarian 13.33
12 Algerian_Jewish 14.59
13 Sephardic_Jewish 15.08
14 Romanian 15.12
15 Libyan_Jewish 17.49
16 North_Italian 17.68
17 Serbian 17.99
18 Tunisian_Jewish 18.32
19 Cyprian 18.78
20 Turkish 21.77

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88% Greek_Thessaly + 12% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.31
2 87.9% Greek_Thessaly + 12.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.38
3 84.2% Greek_Thessaly + 15.8% Cyprian @ 4.45
4 87.7% Greek_Thessaly + 12.3% Samaritan @ 4.47
5 83.7% Greek_Thessaly + 16.3% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.55
6 90% Greek_Thessaly + 10% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.7
7 89.7% Greek_Thessaly + 10.3% Palestinian @ 4.77
8 88.2% Greek_Thessaly + 11.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.83
9 89.6% Greek_Thessaly + 10.4% Jordanian @ 4.83
10 90.8% Greek_Thessaly + 9.2% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.87
11 90.4% Greek_Thessaly + 9.6% Assyrian @ 4.9
12 81.7% Greek_Thessaly + 18.3% Italian_Jewish @ 4.91
13 83.6% Greek_Thessaly + 16.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.94
14 93.6% Greek_Thessaly + 6.4% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.94
15 89.3% Greek_Thessaly + 10.7% Syrian @ 4.95
16 87.5% Greek_Thessaly + 12.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.03
17 92.2% Greek_Thessaly + 7.8% Georgian_Jewish @ 5.12
18 92.3% Greek_Thessaly + 7.7% Armenian @ 5.13
19 92.8% Greek_Thessaly + 7.2% Egyptian @ 5.16
20 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Bedouin @ 5.18

Almost identical to my results

[Wrong]

Here is a Eurogenes K15 for a person from "deep Mani":

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.78
2 West_Med 18.33
3 North_Sea 13.65
4 West_Asian 12.04
5 Baltic 9.97
6 Atlantic 8.07
7 Eastern_Euro 7.01
8 Red_Sea 3.07
9 Oceanian 0.88
10 Northeast_African 0.21Considering how southeastern-shifted those results are, it is more Baltic & Eastern_Euro than I have.

This is despite myself coming from areas surrounded by Slavs:


<tbody>
Baltic
9.30


Eastern_Euro
6.57

</tbody>

[Hellenas]

"Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer proposed that the medieval Peloponneseans were totally extinguished by Slavic and Avar invaders and replaced by Slavic settlers during the 6th century CE. Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs. We find considerable heterogeneity of Peloponnesean populations exemplified by genetically distinct subpopulations and by gene flow gradients within Peloponnese. By principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE analysis the Peloponneseans are clearly distinguishable from the populations of the Slavic homeland and are very similar to Sicilians and Italians. Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

Replace the "0.2 to 14.4% Slavic ancestry" with NE admixture and they are correct.

[Hellenas]

Sicilians and Calabrese were brought to the Peloponnese to replace the expelled Slavs. I'd go so far as to say Peloponnesians are more Sicilian than the reverse.

What is evident to me is what I said above: Sicilians have more Sardinian/Iberian-like affinity, while Peloponnesians do indeed have more Slavic, even though the paper concludes it is small. The two roughly cancel out.

I think in general though it can be concluded that Peloponnesians, Sicilians, and Cretans are all fairly close. What I want to see is islands other than the Dodecanese studied, who I suspect will also be very close to Sicilians.

They were Greeks from Sicily and south Italy, not Italians.


7th century

Slavic conquest of several parts of Greece, Greek migrations to Southern Italy, Roman emperors capture main Slavic bodies and transfer them to Cappadocia. The Bosphorus is re-populated by Macedonian and Cypriot Greeks.

8th century

Roman dissolution of surviving Slavic settlements in Greece and full recovery of the Greek peninsula.

9th century

Retro-migrations of Greeks from all parts of the Empire (mainly from Southern Italy and Sicily) into parts of Greece that were depopulated by the Slavic Invasions (mainly western Peloponnesus and Thessaly).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks#Timeline

[Coolguy1]

Considering how southeastern-shifted those results are, it is more Baltic & Eastern_Euro than I have.

This is despite myself coming from areas surrounded by Slavs:


<tbody>
Baltic
9.30


Eastern_Euro
6.57

</tbody>

I used to think that Greeks had slightly more Slavic ancestry than Albanians but I dont believe it anymore. This baltic and eastern Euro ancestry has to be from before the Slavic migrations, heck, Sicilians and Italians seem to share more common ancestry with Slavs that Peloponnesians do.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg

Also, from another study that covered all of Europe, Albanians seemed to have a higher amount of shared ancestry with other nations than Greeks.

http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/figure/image?size=large&id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555.t001

1.7 for Kosovars and .9 for Greeks, im not sure why the value for Albanians from Albania proper are missing

[Sikeliot]

I used to think that Greeks had slightly more Slavic ancestry than Albanians but I dont believe it anymore. This baltic and eastern Euro ancestry has to be from before the Slavic migrations, heck, Sicilians and Italians seem to share more common ancestry with Slavs that Peloponnesians do.


They don't. Greeks have more NE European ancestry than Sicilians hence why those plotting near Sicily on PCA plots are those who are the least Slavic. There is almost no Baltic/NE Euro in Sicily at all.

Sicily appears where it does on that chart because of recent gene flow from the Italian peninsula, nothing to do with Slavs.

[Sikeliot]

They were Greeks from Sicily and south Italy, not Italians.

There were no "Italians" in Sicily and south Italy back then, the region was entirely Greek speaking.

[Sikeliot]

Considering how southeastern-shifted those results are, it is more Baltic & Eastern_Euro than I have.

This is despite myself coming from areas surrounded by Slavs:


<tbody>
Baltic
9.30


Eastern_Euro
6.57

</tbody>


Almost identical to my results




For comparison, a Sicilian from deep inland:

Eurogenes K15:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.65
2 West_Asian 16.02
3 West_Med 15.22
4 Atlantic 13.01
5 North_Sea 9.47
6 Red_Sea 7.38
7 Baltic 6.33
8 Northeast_African 2.73
9 South_Asian 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_Sicilian 4.09
2 South_Italian 4.53
3 Central_Greek 5.55
4 Ashkenazi 6.36
5 Italian_Jewish 6.89
6 Sephardic_Jewish 7.23
7 Italian_Abruzzo 7.3
8 West_Sicilian 8.36
9 Algerian_Jewish 8.96
10 Tunisian_Jewish 10.39
11 Greek 11.26
12 Greek_Thessaly 11.42
13 Libyan_Jewish 12.23
14 Cyprian 13.07
15 Tuscan 13.13
16 Lebanese_Muslim 15.23
17 Syrian 15.98
18 Turkish 17.03
19 Bulgarian 18.11
20 Jordanian 18.74

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.2% East_Sicilian + 16.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.77
2 88% East_Sicilian + 12% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.87
3 86.7% East_Sicilian + 13.3% Jordanian @ 2.94
4 87.4% East_Sicilian + 12.6% Palestinian @ 2.94
5 88.6% East_Sicilian + 11.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.95
6 88.7% East_Sicilian + 11.3% Kurdish_Jewish @ 2.97
7 84.8% East_Sicilian + 15.2% Syrian @ 2.97
8 87.8% East_Sicilian + 12.2% Lebanese_Christian @ 2.98
9 88.4% East_Sicilian + 11.6% Assyrian @ 3.05
10 87.4% East_Sicilian + 12.6% Samaritan @ 3.08
11 78.9% East_Sicilian + 21.1% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.12
12 89.9% East_Sicilian + 10.1% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.24
13 53.9% Tuscan + 46.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 3.24
14 94.8% South_Italian + 5.2% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.26
15 94.9% South_Italian + 5.1% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.26
16 93.3% East_Sicilian + 6.7% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.27
17 83.9% East_Sicilian + 16.1% Cyprian @ 3.29
18 89.7% East_Sicilian + 10.3% Bedouin @ 3.31
19 90.9% East_Sicilian + 9.1% Armenian @ 3.39
20 56.6% Lebanese_Muslim + 43.4% North_Italian @ 3.41

[Wrong]

Albanians have influenced the surrounding Slavs genetically if that is the case, which is why we may be related to a bunch of them.

Kosovo sample includes Kosovo Serbs, and the "Self" is higher in Albania proper than in Kosovo, which doesn't make sense as Kosovar Albanians are pred. Ghegs and have a higher ethnic homogenity.

It seems very unlikely that we have recieved more than a few percentages of Slavic autosomal DNA, since autosomal tells the story afterall.

The "v" in Albania stands for 0% shared relation.

[Sikeliot]

I used to think that Greeks had slightly more Slavic ancestry than Albanians but I dont believe it anymore. This baltic and eastern Euro ancestry has to be from before the Slavic migrations, heck, Sicilians and Italians seem to share more common ancestry with Slavs that Peloponnesians do.

Untrue because if you look at this table... the amount of affinity to Slavs works in the opposite direction as Italy:

http://i66.tinypic.com/n1884o.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I think this confirms the GEDmatch results... Peloponnesians are between Tuscans and Sicilians, and Sicilians as a whole would be transitional to people like Cypriots and have more West Asian affinity autosomally (in terms of IBD sharing, Peloponnesians do not have much with the Levant at all so I cannot say what would be the case for Sicily).

[Coolguy1]

Untrue because if you look at this table... the amount of affinity to Slavs works in the opposite direction as Italy:

http://i66.tinypic.com/n1884o.jpg

Sikeliot, you seem to have this agenda here that Pelopponesians are Slavs, even when the study suggests that the Slavic impact on the population was minimal. Now, no one is denying that Slavs did in fact assimilate into the local gene pool, but it seems to be only a small amount.

"We also observe that the Basques, (a population that is well-known to be isolated and genetically different from even its neighboring Iberian populations) are very distinct from all populations in our analysis. This is precisely why we included them in these ADMIXTURE meta-analyses: on average Basques share <4% of common ancestry with any Peloponnesean population. Notice that this number is relatively close to the average ancestry shared between the Peloponnesean populations and the Belarusians, Polish and Ukrainians. All these populations share between 5.2 and 8.5% of common ancestry with the Peloponnesean populations. These Slavic populations are, from a genetic perspective, approximately as far apart from the Peloponneseans as are the Basques."



We are as far away from Belarussians as we are with the Basques.

[Wrong]

I think this confirms the GEDmatch results... Peloponnesians are between Tuscans and Sicilians, and Sicilians as a whole would be transitional to people like Cypriots and have more West Asian affinity autosomally (in terms of IBD sharing, Peloponnesians do not have much with the Levant at all so I cannot say what would be the case for Sicily).
Albanians are very close to Tuscans, just slightly more Eastern shifted due to Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya and minor if any Slavic influence.

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, you seem to have this agenda here that Pelopponesians are Slavs, even when the study suggests that the Slavic impact on the population was minimal. Now, no one is denying that Slavs did in fact assimilate into the local gene pool, but it seems to be only a small amount.

"We also observe that the Basques, (a population that is well-known to be isolated and genetically different from even its neighboring Iberian populations) are very distinct from all populations in our analysis. This is precisely why we included them in these ADMIXTURE meta-analyses: on average Basques share <4% of common ancestry with any Peloponnesean population. Notice that this number is relatively close to the average ancestry shared between the Peloponnesean populations and the Belarusians, Polish and Ukrainians. All these populations share between 5.2 and 8.5% of common ancestry with the Peloponnesean populations. These Slavic populations are, from a genetic perspective, approximately as far apart from the Peloponneseans as are the Basques."



We are as far away from Belarussians as we are with the Basques.

No, I am questioning your claim that Sicilians have more Slavic DNA than Peloponnesians. Are you on crack? Look at the PCA plot here (full Europe PCA) and see the Sicilians are the furthest away from the core Europeans of all... the Peloponnesians partly overlap with Sicilians, and drift toward the main Italian cluster.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2wq67hg.jpg

[Hellenas]

There were no "Italians" in Sicily and south Italy back then, the region was entirely Greek speaking.

Sicily and south Italy never was exclusively Greek by ancestry. The people back then were also Italians by ancestry whatever language they spoke.

[Sikeliot]

Sicily and south Italy never was exclusively Greek by ancestry. The people back then were also Italians by ancestry whatever language they spoke.

At the time of the Byzantine Empire, there were no Italian speakers in Sicily. Italian didn't exist as a language and the population was not Latinized until the Norman conquest.

[nightrider+]

There were no "Italians" in Sicily and south Italy back then, the region was entirely Greek speaking.
Where did you get that?

[Sikeliot]

Where did you get that?

Under the Byzantine Empire, the island was almost entirely Greek speaking. I thought this was known.

Either way, it was not Italian speaking so no, the people were not "Italian" then. And Greek speaking Sicilians were native Sicilians who were Hellenized.

[Sikeliot]

I am still laughing at Sorcelow's claim Sicilians are more Slavic than Peloponnesians. Look at that PCA plot: Sicilians are the furthest away from the NE Europeans, and the Peloponnesians are second furthest away.

With this said, the whole point of the paper is implying that "Sicilian-like" means "as un-Slavic as possible" so by saying Peloponnesians drift toward Sicilians, it's emphasizing their LACK of Slavic input.

[Wrong]

Albanians are almost in line with Tuscans (I'm Kurgan there and 1/4 Tosk btw)

Other Albanians there are full Ghegs I think, not sure about Nilotik.

http://i.imgur.com/8Wi8mZR.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Albanians are almost in line with Tuscans (I'm Kurgan there and 1/4 Tosk btw)

Other Albanians there are full Ghegs I think, not sure about Nilotik.

http://i.imgur.com/8Wi8mZR.jpg

My guess is Peloponnesians here would be close to Abruzzo. What do you think?

[Sikeliot]

CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION:

If "Deep Mani" doesn't share anything with the Levant, but plots with Sicily, do Sicilians also not share anything with the Levant?

[Hellenas]

At the time of the Byzantine Empire, there were no Italian speakers in Sicily. Italian didn't exist as a language and the population was not Latinized until the Norman conquest.

When I say Italians I mean native Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

When I say Italians I mean native Sicilians.

Based on genetics of isolated regions of Sicily, the native Sicilians would have been further removed from European populations and unlikely to be similar to northern and central Italians. Expect something more Cypriot-like.

[Wrong]

My guess is Peloponnesians here would be close to Abruzzo. What do you think?More at C.Greek(Central Greek) I think.

[Coolguy1]

I am still laughing at Sorcelow's claim Sicilians are more Slavic than Peloponnesians. Look at that PCA plot: Sicilians are the furthest away from the NE Europeans, and the Peloponnesians are second furthest away.

With this said, the whole point of the paper is implying that "Sicilian-like" means "as un-Slavic as possible" so by saying Peloponnesians drift toward Sicilians, it's emphasizing their LACK of Slavic input.

Relax its not a big deal, you are way too into this lol

[Sikeliot]

Relax its not a big deal, you are way too into this lol

Well you're wrong and no accurate reading of the study can derive that conclusion.

Anyway I am happy this study came out because it shows what is always known: Greeks are the mongrelized ones despite your massive (unwarranted) egos and superiority complexes, and Sicilians are the pure, the original... hence why the least Slavic DNA means closer to Sicilian.

[Sikeliot]

Again, see who is further removed from the main Europe cluster... and who is a better representation of pure ancient population:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2wq67hg.jpg

[Sikeliot]

More at C.Greek(Central Greek) I think.

Maybe somewhere between the two.

Or maybe regular Peloponnesians close to Central Greeks, while the "special" populations (Tsakonians, Maniots, etc) more close to Abruzzo or possibly Sicily for the more isolated.

[Coolguy1]

Well you're wrong and no accurate reading of the study can derive that conclusion.

Anyway I am happy this study came out because it shows what is always known: Greeks are the mongrelized ones despite your massive (unwarranted) egos and superiority complexes, and Sicilians are the pure, the original... hence why the least Slavic DNA means closer to Sicilian.

Dont you have anything better to do than spend 99% of your day on a forum talking about Greeks? Its mind boggling how you have nearly 90,000 posts here.

[Sikeliot]

Dont you have anything better to do than spend 99% of your day on a forum talking about Greeks? Its mind boggling how you have nearly 90,000 posts here.

I am addressing the study. But my point remains: more Slavic = further from Sicilians, thus Sicilian = not mongrelized unlike what the lot of you like to claim about being pure and everyone else being mongrelized and inferior.

When the paper says "Peloponnesians are not Slavicized all that much, in fact they are close to Sicilians" it really means "Peloponnesians are close to unchanged from ancient times" which means GREEKS WITH SLAVIC DNA are mongrelized, not Sicilians, despite what the lot of you love to claim.

Greek purity thus can be measured by proximity to Sicilians and Cretans. The end.

[nightrider+]

Well you're wrong and no accurate reading of the study can derive that conclusion.

Anyway I am happy this study came out because it shows what is always known: Greeks are the mongrelized ones despite your massive (unwarranted) egos and superiority complexes, and Sicilians are the pure, the original... hence why the least Slavic DNA means closer to Sicilian.
As usual, you have gone wilder than anyone towards misinterpreting the study.

Enjoy your 5% SSA purity!

[Sikeliot]

As usual, you have gone wilder than anyone towards misinterpreting the study.

How did I misinterpret it? The Greeks who have the least Slavic DNA, are those who are closer to Sicilians. That's the only reasonable conclusion: if you feel differently, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

And I never said I was pure.. I am very mixed and not ashamed of being part SSA.

[Sikeliot]

CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION:

If "Deep Mani" doesn't share anything with the Levant, but plots with Sicily, do Sicilians also not share anything with the Levant?

[nightrider+]

How did I misinterpret it? The Greeks who have the least Slavic DNA, are those who are closer to Sicilians. That's the only reasonable conclusion: if you feel differently, I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

And I never said I was pure.. I am very mixed and not ashamed of being part SSA.
Did you miss the part where Messinia with the second highest shared ancestry with Italians has also the highest with Slavs or Arcadia having the lowest with both?
It's always about your agenda and it's hard for you to see past it.

[Sikeliot]

Did you miss the part where Messinia with the second highest shared ancestry with Italians has also the highest with Slavs or Arcadia having the lowest with both?
It's always about your agenda and it's hard for you to see past it.

That's Italians, not Sicilians specifically. It is including IBD sharing with all of the Italians in one, which means it does not differentiate between Venice, Tuscany, or Sicily. I am speaking of the PCA plot.

Also no one answered my question. If Peloponnesians have no Levantine input worth mentioning, does this mean Sicilians do not either?

[nightrider+]

That's Italians, not Sicilians specifically. It is including IBD sharing with all of the Italians in one, which means it does not differentiate between Venice, Tuscany, or Sicily. I am speaking of the PCA plot.

Also no one answered my question. If Peloponnesians have no Levantine input worth mentioning, does this mean Sicilians do not either?
So what? The non-Sicilian Italians are part-Slavs too now? It's the only explanation going by your (non-)logic.

[Sikeliot]

So what? The non-Sicilian Italians are part-Slavs too now? It's the only explanation going by your (non-)logic.

Sicilians are close to "pure" Mediterranean, with the exception of Lombard and Norman input are almost entirely untouched by Northern Europe. Of course North Italians and Tuscans will be comparatively closer, as is part of the Peloponnesian population.

[Sikeliot]

Anyway viewing results on GEDmatch, Peloponnesians usually come up something like 85% Sicilian and 15% Slavic, so it's not that far off from the study's conclusion.

[Sikeliot]

Also as a clarification, I have no issue with Greek people, I have an issue with the specific people on this forum who try to spin things to make themselves superior to others.. Hellenas is by far the worst when it comes to this.

[Sikeliot]

Also, does anyone know where in Greece these are from? which region?

They do not plot with Sicilians, but close to Bulgarians and Albanians.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3803/33016272762_2f3e139a15_b.jpg

[Coolguy1]

Also, does anyone know where in Greece these are from? which region?

They do not plot with Sicilians, but close to Bulgarians and Albanians.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3803/33016272762_2f3e139a15_b.jpg

Probably northern Greeks, although it would be strange if they did not include Peloponnesians

[Sikeliot]

Probably northern Greeks, although it would be strange if they did not include Peloponnesians

Peloponnese is only 10% of the Greek population, so usually they go for one of the big cities. I think someone said that sample is Thessalian and Athenian.

What still puzzles me is someone who scores like you: there is no way you'd plot with a Sicilian on that PCA plot. Unless you'd just be one of the Peloponnesians with an excess of Slavic.

[Coolguy1]

Peloponnese is only 10% of the Greek population, so usually they go for one of the big cities. I think someone said that sample is Thessalian and Athenian.

What still puzzles me is someone who scores like you: there is no way you'd plot with a Sicilian on that PCA plot. Unless you'd just be one of the Peloponnesians with an excess of Slavic.

Well I guess only individuals from deep Mani and Tsakonia would plot with Sicilians.

I think the majority of Greeks fall in the middle between Sicilians and Albanians/Bulgarians

[Sikeliot]

Well I guess only individuals from deep Mani and Tsakonia would plot with Sicilians.

I think so because it'd be consistent with Paschou et al, where the SE Lakonia sample plotted with one end of the Sicilian cluster, and then the other end of the Sicilian cluster overlapped with Cretans.

Tsakonia was not sampled for that study so there is no way of saying with complete authority where they would plot. But probably similarly.

[Sikeliot]

I think the majority of Greeks fall in the middle between Sicilians and Albanians/Bulgarians

Albanians would plot with northern and central Greeks pretty much.

[Hellenas]

I am addressing the study. But my point remains: more Slavic = further from Sicilians, thus Sicilian = not mongrelized unlike what the lot of you like to claim about being pure and everyone else being mongrelized and inferior.

When the paper says "Peloponnesians are not Slavicized all that much, in fact they are close to Sicilians" it really means "Peloponnesians are close to unchanged from ancient times" which means GREEKS WITH SLAVIC DNA are mongrelized, not Sicilians, despite what the lot of you love to claim.

Greek purity thus can be measured by proximity to Sicilians and Cretans. The end.


Well you're wrong and no accurate reading of the study can derive that conclusion.

Anyway I am happy this study came out because it shows what is always known: Greeks are the mongrelized ones despite your massive (unwarranted) egos and superiority complexes, and Sicilians are the pure, the original... hence why the least Slavic DNA means closer to Sicilian.

:1127:

You really are a Sickeliot having complexes about your mixed ethnic and racial ancestry. A Greek called you a bastard American and since then you have give all of your powers by trying to prove Greeks are mixed with Slavs.

Medieval slavic R-M458 that invaded Balkans reaches only 4% in Greece. :wave

[Laberia]

Or even worse...a Thracian/Epirot mix

http://www.sinergasia.gr/uplds/585_1_tsipras.jpg

As far as I am concerned Sikeliot can claim this clown as his bretheren

The ancestors of Tsipras are not natives from Epir, they are prosfiges from Asia Minor.

[Governor]

How much percent of CHG, ANE and SWA do Peloponneseans, Cretans, Thessalians and Sicilians have?Anyone has results?

[catgeorge]

The ancestors of Tsipras are not natives from Epir, they are prosfiges from Asia Minor.

He wasn't from Asia Minor dopey, Greeks from Thrace had to move as well.

His mother is where the red dot is and this is not Asia Minor

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/%D0%98%D0%B7%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A2% D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BA% D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%BD%D0%B0_% D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%2C_%D0%A 2%D1%83%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F.png

His father is indigenous to Epiros - unfortunately he is a deluded North Greek.

[Scholarios]

Mostly greek researchers suggest a sample bias, this is too politically motivated for them.

Considering there were more than a thousand years of repopulations by Greeks and also Franks and Arvanites, what exactly is so hard to believe about this? It says 14% at its highest - that is significant in my eyes. Maybe even the Tosk migrations pushed Peloponessians to 14% Slavic ancestry. ^ ^

[nightrider+]

Also, does anyone know where in Greece these are from? which region?


Iirc, they are all from Athens and Thessaloniki. There is no further info. For all we know, like half of them could have (partly) Pontic origin...


edit: http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/12/23/001552.full.pdf

page 16

[Scholarios]

I am addressing the study. But my point remains: more Slavic = further from Sicilians, thus Sicilian = not mongrelized unlike what the lot of you like to claim about being pure and everyone else being mongrelized and inferior.

When the paper says "Peloponnesians are not Slavicized all that much, in fact they are close to Sicilians" it really means "Peloponnesians are close to unchanged from ancient times" which means GREEKS WITH SLAVIC DNA are mongrelized, not Sicilians, despite what the lot of you love to claim.

Greek purity thus can be measured by proximity to Sicilians and Cretans. The end.

I don't think most Greeks do that. Maybe just Hellenas and Raine possibly. Sure, a lot of them are in denial about it. (Some Albanians too, as we saw with Sorcelow's thread). Usually they are reacting to your threads and stuff, which seem to sometimes shift to 'Siclians are purer Greeks than actual Greeks".

[Tacitus]

Considering there were more than a thousand years of repopulations by Greeks and also Franks and Arvanites, what exactly is so hard to believe about this? It says 14% at its highest - that is significant in my eyes. Maybe even the Tosk migrations pushed Peloponessians to 14% Slavic ancestry. ^ ^

I'm still unsure whether the percentages presented are based on an individual basis or a sub-regional one – they should've made that clearer IMO (unless I missed that part); if it was the latter then I would think they'd say in the discussion section: "Subregion 'X' has the least amount of Slavic influence at 0.2% while subregion 'Y' has the most at 14%."

[Laberia]

He wasn't from Asia Minor dopey, Greeks from Thrace had to move as well.

His mother is where the red dot is and this is not Asia Minor

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/%D0%98%D0%B7%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A2% D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%BA% D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%BD%D0%B0_% D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%2C_%D0%A 2%D1%83%D1%80%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F.png

His father is indigenous to Epiros - unfortunately he is a deluded North Greek.

His father is a prosfig, from Asia Minor. A baptised yogurt.

[Laberia]

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201718a.html

It's an tentative of deluded neogreeks to wash the shit with pee.

[Laberia]

Yeah thats plausible, as I said Mani was a safe haven for Greeks fleeing from Slavs, its only logical that Maniots have less slavic ancestry. What did the study say again, Maniots share less than 1% of their ancestry with slavs?

Read some fearful history, including Maniates:



The Slavic issue

The Greek peninsula, in the first centuries of the Christian Era, started gradually to be transformed into the most sparsely populated country of the Mediterranean Sea.
Greeks had already declined politically in their ancient cradle from where they achieved great things and rushed out as colonists and conquerors till the extreme end of the then known world. The internal conflicts of the city-states and the Roman occupation also caused considerable depopulation of ancient Greece, which from the period of Alexander the Great had ceased to be the economic and military focus as it was in the classical period. Hundreds of thousands colonists from Macedonia and the south of Greece had settled on the new lands that Alexander bequeathed to his successors, so that his homeland became a small country compared to the vast and rich kingdoms of Hellenistic Era. That massive migration was the essential cause that, contrary to what happened in archaic years, Greece of the afterwards Balkan Peninsula was reduced on all levels and in a way non-irreversible.
Even in the 2nd century A.D., Strabo, Pliny and other famous travelers, during the years of Rome’s indisputable omnipotence, looked very disheartened when speaking about the situation of the former ancient Greek city-states, like Thebes, Sicyon and Olynthus. They had all crumbled to ruins. By the time of German and Mongol invasions, which caused the demise of the Roman Empire, the region of Greece did not escape total devastation. Barbarian tribes, like Heruli, leveled Athens, except paradoxically for Parthenon and the temple of Hephaestus (Theseum) in the Forum (the Agora), and, continuing southwards, wiped off the map Eleusis and Sparta. In Sparta only a few hundreds of Helots’ off-springs were left, as they had gained the Perioeci political status, and Spartans left were about 80 persons, after centuries of decline. The same happened elsewhere, in the region of Boeotia for example. The devastation of that historical district, for the same reasons, forced the Roman emperor Caligula to order Hellenized Hebrews to settle there. When the Romans came to Greece as conquerors, they imposed genocides on the cities and realms that resisted occupation. City of Corinth was leveled to the ground after the Roman Senate had decided to destroy it, the same applied to the cities of Epirus and to some provinces of Macedonia. The foundation of new Corinth and Nicopolis, in early imperial period, did not solve the demographic problem of ancient Greece.
The final blow for the decimated rural and the remaining urban population of Greece came by 542-3 A.D. when the whole area was struck by an outbreak of bubonic plague in the Justinian Era. Between one-third and one-half the population of Constantinople, the new capital of the empire and the centre of the Old World, may well have died, while the lesser cities of the empire and the countryside by no means remained immune. Analogical effects, even though with less deaths, had only occurred in 430 B.C. at the Aegean region (Athens of Pericles age), or in the years of the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (165-180 B.C.) when Asia Minor and Syria were struck.
The Byzantine historian Procopius, referring to the image of Greece in the Justinian Era, uses a phrase borrowed from Herodotus to describe the country’s devastation: “Desert of Scythians”. Much later, the emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus relates that the province of Greece had become barbaric as a result of the Slavic settlement there during the 7th century A.D.During the 14th century, Cananos, a courtier, visited the Byzantine city of Mistra where the lords (despots) and the ruling class were Greeks from Asia Minor. He sent to Constantinople a report about the inhabitants of Peloponnese at that period, describing the language of peasants in the region of nowadays Mani (Maina) at Messenia as a Slavic idiom. From the years of Procopius, Menander Protector and PseudoMauricius till the years of historian Laonicus Chalcocondyles of the Palaeologi Era, it was an open secret that on the territory of Greece the descendants of Greeks lived no more. First reports about the Coming of the Slavs to a downgraded district of the empire, where officials were transferred on unfavourable terms, seem inadequate. Some information for the Slavs of Peloponnese is provided by the dubious and obscure “Chronicle of Malvesie” (Monemvasia).
Historians of that period relate invasions of Barbarians and “Huns” much earlier than the 7th century A.D., without clarifying who were these invaders.
Yet, whether or not they were “Huns” but in fact Slavic depredatory groups, 7th century is regarded as starting point of the Slavic settlement on Greece. When they learned to speak Greek with the aid of Byzantine missionaries, their relations with the central power at Constantinople were in perfect harmony for one and only reason: they were then the new subjects on whom taxation was imposed in a deserted province. According to Paul Emile Lemerle however, this was a blessing for the land, as Slav peasants used methods of agriculture similar to those of Mediterranean populations.
After the signal victories of Basil II Bulgaroctonus (Slayer of the Bulgars), the Slavs of Greece ceased to be confused with Bulgars, although it is doubtable that they are related to the so-called “Bulgarian” Slavic branch. It seems that a good few of them arrived in Crete, as there are Slavic place names at Rhodopos peninsula.
Little things are known about the names of Slavic peoples in Greece. In Peloponnese, which the new-comers called Morea (e.g. Sea), Meliggi and Ezeri were established. When they revolted against the Empire, some of them sought shelter in Taygetus Mountains. Maina is the cradle of nationalism in modern Greece. Yet few know that Maniotes (inhabitants of Maina) are of Slavic origin and that later intermingled with Cretans. The latter were not descendants of Minoan Cretans, as they had mingled, in the Middle Ages, with Arabs and Saracens as well as Paphlagonians from Asia Minor whom John I Tzimisces had brought as settlers.
Besides all that tribes, we know the names of other Slavic groups as ex-Greek provinces in where they settled are called “Sclaviniae”, e.g. Slavic regions, by the Byzantines. So Belegizites inhabited Thessaly, Strymonites, Sagudati and Drugubites inhabited Macedonia, Vaiunites from Epirus to Prespa lake. They were several other groups without their names been recorded.
Slavs of Greece started, in the course of centuries, to become bilingual preserving their idioms but learning at the same time Greek, forced by the Byzantines.
In Peloponnese the Slavic language faded definitively during the 16th century, leaving behind hundreds of place names and several words which passed to the Greek dialect of that area. Even their Christianization was delayed at the local societies level, as Slavs of Laconia abandoned latest their primitive religious believes, around the 9th century A.D.
Slavs of Macedonia continued to be bilingual until their territory was annexed partially by the False-Greeks in 1912, during the Balkan Wars.
It is characteristic that until now fruit merchants in Athens puff their cherries of Edessa as from Vódhas (Slavic voda, “water”, because of its waterfalls).
Thessaloniki was besieged by the Slavs, and also Patras in the south, during the Byzantine Era. Some generations later their descendants settled peacefully and en mass to these cities. When at last Ottoman Turks occupied Thessaloniki, its inhabitants did not exceed 3,000 persons, having irreparably declined. As a result, the Turkish sultan Süleyman I the Magnificent asked the chased Sephardic Jews of Spain and Portugal to settle there. Until 1922 when Greek refugees from Asia Minor and Thrace settled there, the Jewish community of Thessaloniki consisted the most numerous group of the city. After the revolt against the Ottoman Empire of peasants with Slavic and Albanian origin from Peloponnese in 1821, there was installed a pattern of state in which the hellenization of a non-Greek population was initiated, not only in lingual terms but also in ethnic terms.
Something analogue happened to all Balkan states at later times. In Albania a myth of origin from the Illyrians was set up and in former Yugoslavian republic of Macedonia Slavs of the region claimed that they are descendants of Greek Macedonians, without referring to the fact of intermarriages they had with national groups like Bulgars and Magyars.
In Europe the German historian Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer disputed the “Kingdom of Greece” national propaganda, not to mention that he is neither the first nor the last to consider the inhabitants of that small state non descending from the ancient Greeks. The desultory reaction of the theorists intellectual fathers of that artificial hellenization, e.g. S. Zambelios and C. Paparrigopoulos, would had collapsed with only one phrase of Fallmerayer, who wrote that False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”. It did not happen. Mass hellenization of Slavic, Albanian and Vlach place names throughout Greece, during the last half of the 20th century, was only the summit of the iceberg.
Greece is not found inside the museum buildings, where some artifacts concerning the ancient Greek art, and incidentally some pottery of early Slavic settlement or examples of antic pins from Slavic towns in Argolid and Olympia are only exhibited.
In one thing ancient and modern Greece are equal: they are both the land of legends!
The difference lies in the fact that modern False-Greeks have misappropriated the history of real Greeks, coming to the point to monopolize it at will. They are an illiterate people, they will believe whatever you say, especially when their Balkan propaganda has invested in those lies in the internal and the external of the country alike, at any place and at any rate.


@Sorcelow, Thevillager, do you see who are your ancestors?
@Siqeloqe, don`t vaste your time with the phenotypes of modern greeks. Someone did it before you:
False-Greeks “are people with Slavic arched eyebrows and tough lineaments of Albanian shepherds”

[Coolguy1]

Read some fearful history, including Maniates:

Have you even read the study? Your stupidity amazes me

[Laberia]

Have you even read the study? Your stupidity amazes me

You are one of the most stupid people here in this forum. The fact that you was used and abused by this couple of faggots is the prove.

[Coolguy1]

You are one of the most stupid people here in this forum. The fact that you was used and abused by this couple of faggots is the prove.

Exactly, you havent even read the study.

[Laberia]

Exactly, you havent even read the study.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/customavatars/thumbs/avatar52967_1.gif

[Laberia]

I don't think most Greeks do that. Maybe just Hellenas and Raine possibly. Sure, a lot of them are in denial about it. (Some Albanians too, as we saw with Sorcelow's thread). Usually they are reacting to your threads and stuff, which seem to sometimes shift to 'Siclians are purer Greeks than actual Greeks".

Ding dong:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204408-Slavic-I2a1-in-southern-Albania&p=4277479&viewfull=1#post4277479

[Inquizzzitor]

Sikeliot,

To be fair, Sicilians can't claim to be pure anything when there's more than a couple percentage points coming from SSA and often over 5% coming from North Africa.

[Laberia]

Yeah thats plausible, as I said Mani was a safe haven for Greeks fleeing from Slavs, its only logical that Maniots have less slavic ancestry. What did the study say again, Maniots share less than 1% of their ancestry with slavs?

Interesting. And how do you explain the slavic presence of Melingoi and Ezeritai in the safe haven of Mani?

[Coolguy1]

Interesting. And how do you explain the slavic presence of Melingoi and Ezeritai in the safe haven of Mani?

They did not settle in Mani, they setted right outside of Mani, and the genetics prove this too, you would see this if you actually read the study. Maniotes share at the most 1.6 percent of their ancestry with Slavs while in the areas where the Melingoi settled its 4-10%.

Go read the study and come back

[Tacitus]

Sikeliot,

To be fair, Sicilians can't claim to be pure anything when there's more than a couple percentage points coming from SSA and often over 5% coming from North Africa.

No way is it "often" over 5%; there's no study that has ever noted that much North African genetic input in Sicily.

[Laberia]

They did not settle in Mani, they setted right outside of Mani, and the genetics prove this too, you would see this if you actually read the study. Maniotes share at the most 1.6 percent of their ancestry with Slavs while in the areas where the Melingoi settled its 4-10%.

Go read the study and come back

Seems that you are not honest in your posts. Let me quote something from a friend of greeks, from those authors who try to minimize the effects of slavic invasion:

In Mani it is likely that there was some penetration by the Slavs and certainly into upper Mani as two tribes of Slavs were still in the area centuries later, the Melingi in what probably corresponds to the present day Messenian or Exo Mani and the Ezerites in the swampy area east of Githeon in Lakonia. Surveys of the spread of Slavic place names have revealed that these are widespread in the Exo Mani and certainly not uncommon in the inner Mani (see Malingoudis, P. Studien zu Slavischen Ortsnamen Griechenlands. 1: Slavische Flurnamen aus der messinischen Mani. Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Mainz. 1981). An obvious 'giveaway' is the ending '-itsa' which shows Slavic origins but other place names such as Gaitses have strayed in spelling over the centuries. In the 17th century this is recorded by the Ottoman writer Evliya Celebi as Gatsitsa.

Source:
http://www.maniguide.info/byzantine.html
Seems that only the castle of Maina was saved from the hordes of slavs. And what is a castle in terms of populations? Nothing.
In coming other information, soon. And this only about slavs. Later i will continue with vlachs and Albanians in Mani.

[Sikeliot]

No way is it "often" over 5%; there's no study that has ever noted that much North African genetic input in Sicily.

No study has ever autosomally tried to quantify it, only with haplogroups, but if you look at the Paschou et al admixture chart you can see that the Sicilians do have minor North African (looks about 5%) relative to the Cretans who they're otherwise similar to:

http://i66.tinypic.com/28whuon.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Also it is worth noting via this chart in Paschou et al, one Laconian and two Sicilians are more Near Eastern than the Cretans.. it appears most of the 20 Sicilians sampled in the study are hidden underneath the red Cretan cluster, due to the overlap between the two.


http://i66.tinypic.com/sq5h5i.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qi2o8z.jpg

[Coolguy1]

Seems that you are not honest in your posts. Let me quote something from a friend of greeks, from those authors who try to minimize the effects of slavic invasion:

In Mani it is likely that there was some penetration by the Slavs and certainly into upper Mani as two tribes of Slavs were still in the area centuries later, the Melingi in what probably corresponds to the present day Messenian or Exo Mani and the Ezerites in the swampy area east of Githeon in Lakonia. Surveys of the spread of Slavic place names have revealed that these are widespread in the Exo Mani and certainly not uncommon in the inner Mani (see Malingoudis, P. Studien zu Slavischen Ortsnamen Griechenlands. 1: Slavische Flurnamen aus der messinischen Mani. Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Mainz. 1981). An obvious 'giveaway' is the ending '-itsa' which shows Slavic origins but other place names such as Gaitses have strayed in spelling over the centuries. In the 17th century this is recorded by the Ottoman writer Evliya Celebi as Gatsitsa.

Source:
http://www.maniguide.info/byzantine.html
Seems that only the castle of Maina was saved from the hordes of slavs. And what is a castle in terms of populations? Nothing.
In coming other information, soon. And this only about slavs. Later i will continue with vlachs and Albanians in Mani.

Are you literally that stupid that you cannot read the study? It might be difficult for your little brain to grasp the information but do me a favor and at least try. This so called theory of Slavs in Mani is disproven by the study, yet we know that toskeria is littered with the seed of Slavs.

So please, go read the study, and then come back

[Laberia]

Are you literally that stupid that you cannot read the study? It might be difficult for your little brain to grasp the information but do me a favor and at least try. This so called theory of Slavs in Mani is disproven by the study, yet we know that toskeria is littered with the seed of Slavs.

So please, go read the study, and then come back

This your post is really funny. And you pretend to be a greek.

History (from Greek ἱστορία, historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation")[2] is the study of the past as it is described in written documents.[3][4] Events occurring before written record are considered prehistory. It is an umbrella term that relates to past events as well as the memory, discovery, collection, organization, presentation, and interpretation of information about these events. Scholars who write about history are called historians.

[Coolguy1]

This your post is really funny. And you pretend to be a greek.

History (from Greek ἱστορία, historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation")[2] is the study of the past as it is described in written documents.[3][4] Events occurring before written record are considered prehistory. It is an umbrella term that relates to past events as well as the memory, discovery, collection, organization, presentation, and interpretation of information about these events. Scholars who write about history are called historians.

Whats funnier is that you have almost 5,000 posts on this forum, I wonder if you have a job

[Sikeliot]

Laberia, this is what the study implies -- there is Slavic admixture in Peloponnesians, but it is low, and the least Slavicized in the bunch are more or less similar to Sicilians (which would also make them close to Cretans and Aegean islanders, too).

[Sikeliot]

One point though is the Slavs in the Peloponnese had likely mixed with Balkanites on their way down, so it is likely that by comparing to Russians and Poles, the extent of replacement was underestimated. If we look at the people who do not overlap with Sicilians on the PCA plot, it is possible they have significant ancestry from the rest of the Balkans that consisted of Slavicized people who moved south, and comparing only to NE Europeans underestimates this significantly.

[nightrider+]

One point though is the Slavs in the Peloponnese had likely mixed with Balkanites on their way down, so it is likely that by comparing to Russians and Poles, the extent of replacement was underestimated. If we look at the people who do not overlap with Sicilians on the PCA plot, it is possible they have significant ancestry from the rest of the Balkans that consisted of Slavicized people who moved south, and comparing only to NE Europeans underestimates this significantly.

And what would be the difference of South Slavs and Greeks if not for the extra "Slavic" and some East Asian? We've already seen a Bronze Age Croatian sample plotting with Southern Bulgarians.

[Sikeliot]

And what would be the difference of South Slavs and Greeks if not for the extra "Slavic" and some East Asian? We've already seen a Bronze Age Croatian sample plotting with Southern Bulgarians.

Not very much.

[brennus dux gallorum]

They did not settle in Mani, they setted right outside of Mani, and the genetics prove this too, you would see this if you actually read the study. Maniotes share at the most 1.6 percent of their ancestry with Slavs while in the areas where the Melingoi settled its 4-10%.

Go read the study and come back

Are you seriously trying to explain Laberia that maniots are not significantly Slavic mixed?

Tell him that all Greeks are pure slavs so he can sleep quiet tonight

[Laberia]

Laberia, this is what the study implies -- there is Slavic admixture in Peloponnesians, but it is low, and the least Slavicized in the bunch are more or less similar to Sicilians (which would also make them close to Cretans and Aegean islanders, too).

«Έλληνες για να ρίχνουμε στάχτη στα μάτια του κόσμου, πραγματικά Ρωμιοί».

"Hellenes in order to pull the wool over world's eyes, in reality ROMANS."
Kostis Palamas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostis_Palamas) in 1901.

[Tacitus]

Couple points I wanted to add that I found interesting:

1) In one PCA comparing Peloponnesians to Anatolian Greek groups, Asia Minor Greeks actually show a bit of overlap with the Peloponnese while predictably, Cappadocian and Pontic Greeks plot much further away.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f3.jpg

2) In another PCA found in the supplementary info, when comparing Peloponnesian sub-regions vis-a-vis other Europeans, Sicilians are closest to East Tayetos (you can also see Sicilians plotting similarly in one of the main PCAs[b]).
https://s24.postimg.org/xlmka7845/Peloponesse_and_Sicily_PCA.png

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg

[wvwvw]

«Έλληνες για να ρίχνουμε στάχτη στα μάτια του κόσμου, πραγματικά Ρωμιοί».

"Hellenes in order to pull the wool over world's eyes, in reality ROMANS."
Kostis Palamas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostis_Palamas) in 1901.

Turkalbanian dickhead a Hellene and Romios is one and the same and have the same ancestors.

What Kostis Palamas meant is that Romioi no longer had an ANCIENT Greek culture, much like the Germans didn't have an ancient pagan German culture and modern Italians have a different culture to Romans.

After the Christianization of Europe, Europeans were no longer the same.

[wvwvw]

One point though is the Slavs in the Peloponnese had likely mixed with Balkanites on their way down, so it is likely that by comparing to Russians and Poles, the extent of replacement was underestimated. If we look at the people who do not overlap with Sicilians on the PCA plot, it is possible they have significant ancestry from the rest of the Balkans that consisted of Slavicized people who moved south, and comparing only to NE Europeans underestimates this significantly.

Greek presence was all over the Balkans since antiquity, so it is natural there would be some overlap. But the Greeks' ethnic composition was not altered, not significantly anyway.

[Laberia]

Turkalbanian dickhead a Hellene and Romios is one and the same and have the same ancestors.

What Kostis Palamas meant is that Romioi no longer had an ANCIENT Greek culture, much like the Germans didn't have an ancient pagan German culture and modern Italians have a different culture to Romans.

After the Christianization of Europe, Europeans were no longer the same.

And with the wool over world's eyes, what he meant?

[wvwvw]

And with the wool over world's eyes, what he meant?

That Greeks overemphasized their Ancient Greek past to gain the sympathy of the west in their strive for Independence. Got it dickhead? That doesn't mean their ancestors weren't the Hellenes.

Hellene, Greek, Romios, Pelasgian, Danaan, Achean are all tautologies. They all mean the same thing.

[Laberia]

That Greeks overemphasized their Ancient Greek past to gain the sympathy of the west in their strive for Independence. Got it dickhead? That doesn't mean their ancestors weren't the Hellenes.

Hellene, Greek, Romios, Pelasgian, Danaan, Achean are all tautologies. They all mean the same thing.

You forgot your ancestors from the Galaxy of Andromeda. Not yours personally, because you are a laliote from Myzeqeja.
And stop with this word dick. Proi proi psola exis fas?

[wvwvw]

His father is a prosfig, from Asia Minor. A baptised yogurt.

Try again, Asia Minor had been Greek land since Minoan times. Asia Minor was an extension of Greece, a hardcore Greek area.

Yoghurt was invented by the ancient Greeks as Galagto which is where the word Yoghurt comes from. Many Turkish words have IE origin because they derive from corrupted Byzantine Greek.

[Laberia]

Try again, Asia Minor had been Greek land since Minoan times. Asia Minor was an extension of Greece, a hardcore Greek area.

Yoghurt was invented by the ancient Greeks as Galagto which is where the word Yoghurt comes from. Many Turkish words have IE origin because they derive from corrupted Byzantine Greek.

Exactly for this reason your ancestors called them baptised yogurt, because of IE.

[wvwvw]

Exactly for this reason your ancestors called them baptised yogurt, because of IE.

Turks were Muslims and they were not allowed to convert to Christianity on pain of death. Even today Turks are murdered for leaving Islam. Renouncing Islam is risky as any apostasy by male adults still carries a death sentence under sharia.

The only ones baptised Turks are the Turkalbanians who converted to Islam by own choice.

[Era]

Maybe even the Tosk migrations pushed Peloponessians to 14% Slavic ancestry. ^ ^

You saw my 23andme contacts, there were 30 I2adin greeks for one Albanian. It should be much more in reality for greeks given that I don't have a high proportion of greek relatives.

[Scholarios]

You saw my 23andme contacts, there were 30 I2adin greeks for one Albanian. It should be much more in reality for greeks given that I don't have a high proportion of greek relatives.

First of all, we are talking only Peloponese , not Epirus or Macedonia where Slavic impact might be higher. 15% max sounds reasonable after 1300 years. Secondly , you know as well as I do ,it's the same reason Tosks have high R1a + i2 , but autosomally don't score much east Europe ( same with Greeks) .

Not saying the study is necessarily 100% kosher, and it will definitely be abused online, but the basic conclusion doesn't sound especially radical or biased.

[brennus dux gallorum]

And with the wool over world's eyes, what he meant?

That in fact we are descents of Romulus, who pretend to be descents of deucalion:p

[Herr Abubu]

You saw my 23andme contacts, there were 30 I2adin greeks for one Albanian. It should be much more in reality for greeks given that I don't have a high proportion of greek relatives.

Your 23andme contacts isn't a reliable sample and never will be. Stop coping.

[Era]

Your 23andme contacts isn't a reliable sample and never will be. Stop coping.
You're the one coping with your slav plotting, trying to drag tosks there too.

[Laberia]

You saw my 23andme contacts, there were 30 I2adin greeks for one Albanian. It should be much more in reality for greeks given that I don't have a high proportion of greek relatives.

You really belive in this things?

[Herr Abubu]

You're the one coping with your slav plotting, trying to drag tosks there too.

There's limits to how stupid you can be. If anything, those calculators show me to have less North European and East European admixture than most Albanians, while shifting westward. On the other hand, a lot of Tosks have clear Slavic ancestry because they have a lot of Slavic Y-DNA, which is along with IBD-sharing the best way of knowing population movements and origins.

[Era]

There's limits to how stupid you can be. If anything, those calculators show me to have less North European and East European admixture than most Albanians, while shifting westward. On the other hand, a lot of Tosks have clear Slavic ancestry because they have a lot of Slavic Y-DNA, which is along with IBD-sharing the best way of knowing population movements and origins.

But they dont. While you do.

[Herr Abubu]

But they dont. While you do.

They do, as actual studies have shown. Do show me how Slavic plotting I am.

[Era]

They do, as actual studies have shown. Do show me how Slavic plotting I am.

Studies with 100 people don't mean much. Your dna land, and your 23andme plotting

[Herr Abubu]

Studies with 100 people don't mean much. Your dna land, and your 23andme plotting

My 23andme plotting is typically Kosovar. My DNAland is 100% Southern European, so... What's important, though, is that neither of those show anything significant, they aren't reliable. What's reliable is the Slavic origin of R1a and I2a in the Balkans. If you have either of those, your ancestors were Slavic if you look far back enough and came with the Slavic invasions of the Balkans. Studies with 100 people, in aggregate 200, are very reliable statistically, which an imbecile like you wouldn't know.

[Era]

My 23andme plotting is typically Kosovar. My DNAland is 100% Southern European, so... .

lol, you posted it, how can you lie?
IF your plotting is typically Kosovar then Tosks should be more northern than you given their slavic admixture, lol

[Herr Abubu]

lol, you posted it, how can you lie?

Because I don't (http://i.imgur.com/NrIA9P2.jpg)?


IF your plotting is typically Kosovar than Tosks should be more northern than you given their slavic admixture, lol

No, they shouldn't. By the same logic, Greeks should plot north of Albanians, which they don't, if, as you yourself just argued, they have more Slavic admixture. The reason this doesn't work is because it's entirely possible that they plotted even further south before mixing with Slavs. In addition, it's most likely that these Slavs were already heavily mixed with native Balkaners, making them plot southwards like Macedonians and Bulgarians do. What's definite and can't be argued, however, unless one's as stupid as you clearly are, is that R1a and I2a in Tosks doesn't represent Slavic admixture.

[Era]

Because I don't (http://i.imgur.com/NrIA9P2.jpg)?



No, they shouldn't. By the same logic, Greeks should plot north of Albanians, which they don't, if, as you yourself just argued, they have more Slavic admixture. The reason this doesn't work is because it's entirely possible that they plotted even further south before mixing with Slavs. In addition, it's most likely that these Slavs were already heavily mixed with native Balkaners, making them plot southwards like Macedonians and Bulgarians do. What's definite and can't be argued, however, unless one's as stupid as you clearly are, is that R1a and I2a in Tosks doesn't represent Slavic admixture.

But you do, 30% central euro, what is that. R1a and I2a in Tosks is in your imagination, your slav admixture is real. My last post, as I know, you're a hobo, posting here is the highlight of your day.

[wvwvw]

Because I don't (http://i.imgur.com/NrIA9P2.jpg)?



No, they shouldn't. By the same logic, Greeks should plot north of Albanians, which they don't, if, as you yourself just argued, they have more Slavic admixture. The reason this doesn't work is because it's entirely possible that they plotted even further south before mixing with Slavs. In addition, it's most likely that these Slavs were already heavily mixed with native Balkaners, making them plot southwards like Macedonians and Bulgarians do. What's definite and can't be argued, however, unless one's as stupid as you clearly are, is that R1a and I2a in Tosks doesn't represent Slavic admixture.

Slavs were a drop in the wider greek pool ocean. They were a small minority and they were eventually expelled from Greece.

[HellLander87]

Tosks are probably the least slavic influenced balkanians. Kosovars are way more slavic influenced than tosks.

[Sikeliot]

2) In another PCA found in the supplementary info, when comparing Peloponnesian sub-regions vis-a-vis other Europeans, Sicilians are closest to East Tayetos (you can also see Sicilians plotting similarly in one of the main PCAs[b]).
https://s24.postimg.org/xlmka7845/Peloponesse_and_Sicily_PCA.png

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg

Might correspond genetically with the "SE Lakonia" sample in Paschou et al which is Sicilian/Cretan shifted as well.

I made a thread about it here. One of the SE Laconians and two of the Sicilians were so outlying that they ended up nearer the Rhodians. Most of the Sicilians (20 in the sample) and some of the Laconians cannot be seen which must mean they're hidden underneath the Cretans. The non-Laconian Peloponnese plot with other mainland Greeks.

So from all of this, I don't get the feeling that apart from the southern Peloponnese, the other Peloponnesians plot with Sicily. They appear to plot with Tuscany actually. This study needed to break down the Italian regions better in some of the PCAs. Having Cretans would have been helpful on the PCAs because southern Peloponnese, Sicily, and Crete seem similar.

Though even some of the Dodecanese plot nearer the mainlanders and Tuscans, so these clusters are wide and varied.

"Deep Mani" likely plots all scattered like that because they're heavily isolated and/or inbred.

http://i66.tinypic.com/sq5h5i.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2qi2o8z.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Though we should be clear. When we say the less Slavicized southern Peloponnese plot with Sicilians, we are comparing them to Sicilians who have undergone Norman, Lombard, Italian etc. admixture.

Ancient Sicilians and ancient Peloponnesians would be different, because ancient Sicilians without those influences would be further outlying, probably close to the Dodecanese today (some Sicilians, those with less northern shifting elements, do end up close to there, see the chart above).

So what we mean is, modern Peloponnesians without Slavic input are close to modern Sicilians who HAVE Norman, Lombard, etc. input.

[Voskos]

«Έλληνες για να ρίχνουμε στάχτη στα μάτια του κόσμου, πραγματικά Ρωμιοί».

"Hellenes in order to pull the wool over world's eyes, in reality ROMANS."
Kostis Palamas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostis_Palamas) in 1901.

shum mir Mr.Blerim,

keep them posts coming

[Coolguy1]

Though we should be clear. When we say the less Slavicized southern Peloponnese plot with Sicilians, we are comparing them to Sicilians who have undergone Norman, Lombard, Italian etc. admixture.

Ancient Sicilians and ancient Peloponnesians would be different, because ancient Sicilians without those influences would be further outlying, probably close to the Dodecanese today (some Sicilians, those with less northern shifting elements, do end up close to there, see the chart above).

So what we mean is, modern Peloponnesians without Slavic input are close to modern Sicilians who HAVE Norman, Lombard, etc. input.

Like the study said, most Peloponnesians share 95% of their ancestry with Italians (Im not sure from what region) so that means there is a 5% difference which could be attributed to Slavs in the Greeks and Normans in the Italians.

[Tacitus]

Might correspond genetically with the "SE Lakonia" sample in Paschou et al which is Sicilian/Cretan shifted as well.

I made a thread about it here. One of the SE Laconians and two of the Sicilians were so outlying that they ended up nearer the Rhodians. Most of the Sicilians (20 in the sample) and some of the Laconians cannot be seen which must mean they're hidden underneath the Cretans. The non-Laconian Peloponnese plot with other mainland Greeks.

So from all of this, I don't get the feeling that apart from the southern Peloponnese, the other Peloponnesians plot with Sicily. They appear to plot with Tuscany actually. This study needed to break down the Italian regions better in some of the PCAs. Having Cretans would have been helpful on the PCAs because southern Peloponnese, Sicily, and Crete seem similar.

Though even some of the Dodecanese plot nearer the mainlanders and Tuscans, so these clusters are wide and varied.

"Deep Mani" likely plots all scattered like that because they're heavily isolated and/or inbred.

http://i66.tinypic.com/sq5h5i.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2qi2o8z.jpg

And another PCA from the same Paschou study:
https://s31.postimg.org/8ap5z2nkr/F2_large.jpg

PCAs are of course but one way to skin a cat, so to speak, since depending on the populations being compared the plots slightly vary. Nevertheless, the IBD analysis shows a strong amount of genetic sharing between Peloponnesians and Sicilians (N.B. samples from Puglia were included in the IBD analysis):

As anticipated from the results of previous studies,18, 19, 20 the Peloponneseans are genetically placed very close to the Sicilians and Italians (Figures 2a and b) but they differ from several other populations we compared them (see Supplementary Figure 2). Network analysis (Figure 2c), highlighted the interconnections of Peloponnesean populations as well as the connections between Peloponneseans, Italians and Sicilians; in this network analysis, Sicilians and Italians serve as a bridge between Peloponneseans and other European populations (Basque, Andalusians and French).

I also agree that they should have done a better job differentiating between the different Italian groups; I think in the k=8 ADMIXTURE analysis for example the Italian samples to the left are from Sicily, the ones in the center/center-left are northern Italy, and the ones to the right are Tuscan. Just a guess on my part.

[Sikeliot]

And another PCA from the same Paschou study:


The plot I posted is Europe + MENAs all in one and you can see some of the Laconians are, in fact, plotting further east than Cretans as are two of the Sicilians. This is telling to me.


Nevertheless, the IBD analysis shows a strong amount of genetic sharing between Peloponnesians and Sicilians (N.B. samples from Puglia were included in the IBD analysis):

The same should then be true with both populations to Crete. But the point is AUTOSOMALLY you can see, non-Laconian Peloponnese do differ from Sicilians and end up close to Tuscany. Some Sicilians and Laconians east of Crete on a multi-continental PCA plot.

On the charts above it only has the South Euros, so there is no way of weighting them toward say, North Europe or MENAs (when you have that, you see the Sicilians/Lakonians/Cretans go one way and the Peloponnese the other).

Here, it is obvious that the Cretans, Sicilians, and Laconians have more MENA affinity than do the Peloponnesians:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2qi2o8z.jpg

[Sikeliot]

IBD sharing is not autosomal. You need a PCA plot showing the gradient from North Europe to the Near East to see that Peloponnesians do not directly plot with Sicily and in fact many are closer to Tuscans.

[Sikeliot]

This is the most important thing if anything in showing that gradient. It puts Sicily with Crete and SE Laconia, but other Peloponnese are further away from them because of their lower Near Eastern/higher North Euro.

http://i65.tinypic.com/3581gfk.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I.e. Peloponnesians are closer to Macedonian Greeks than to Sicilians, and only Laconia is close overall when you have a full PCA plot and see the gradient. But there are outlying Sicilians (likely those without any Norman or Lombard influence) plotting near Dodecanese and one Laconian doing the same.

Overall, I think Sicilians and Laconians are closer to Cretans, than to non-Laconian Peloponnese when you see a full Europe + Near East PCA plot, and GEDmatch results show this.

[Tacitus]

IBD sharing is not autosomal. You need a PCA plot showing the gradient from North Europe to the Near East to see that Peloponnesians do not directly plot with Sicily and in fact many are closer to Tuscans.

IBD analysis shows genetic similarities between populations, which is just as important IMO.


This is the most important thing if anything in showing that gradient. It puts Sicily with Crete and SE Laconia, but other Peloponnese are further away from them because of their lower Near Eastern/higher North Euro.

http://i65.tinypic.com/3581gfk.jpg

This is from Paschou, is it not? Because this isn't in the supplementary info for this study.

[Laberia]

Tosks are probably the least slavic influenced balkanians. Kosovars are way more slavic influenced than tosks.

I want to explain to you and the rest of the people here who like to play with this tests who from my point of view are far away from the reality.
80% of the toponyms in Balkans are slavic. This suggest that there was an strong impact in Balkans during the recorded historically invasion of slavs.
Albanians are a nation with some admixtures with slavs and other populations. But this admixtures are not decisive in albanian ethnos. The fact that we still exist as a nation is the prove. Albanians are a specific case. We survived all the Empires and all the migration of different populations. The first prove is our language. Appart the dubbioso accuracy of this tests, this don't give answers, this tests rise new questions. If Albanians are an admixture of populations, how did survived our language? This is the first and most important question. And genetic tests can not give an answer to this question. This question and others, put in serious discussion the credibility of this tests. You are a greek. We don't have katharevousa. Have a look what's happened with the language of other Balkan people. This is the point.

[Sikeliot]

IBD analysis shows genetic similarities between populations, which is just as important IMO.



This is from Paschou, is it not? Because this isn't in the supplementary info for this study.

Yes.

My point was, Sicilians and Laconians both have more Near Eastern input than Peloponnesians proper. And can appear genetically, on a PCA plot, on both sides of Crete (i.e. either more "European" or more "Near Eastern" than them). Do you acknowledge this?

The high IBD sharing is more likely due to repopulation of some parts of the Peloponnese with Greek-speaking southern Italians after some Slavs were expelled.

[Coolguy1]

IBD analysis shows genetic similarities between populations, which is just as important IMO.



This is from Paschou, is it not? Because this isn't in the supplementary info for this study.

Tacitus I have a question that hopefully you are able to answer. Since most Peloponnesians share 95% of their ancestry with Italians in the study (Who I assume are from Sicily), doesnt that mean that if the same study were to be done on Sicilians, Slavic countries would definitely show up as sharing ancestry with them? Albeit, not as much as in Peloponnesians. No matter how surprising it might seem it has to be true, just like how Greeks share ancestry with Basques even though there has not been any direct contact between the two populations.

[Tacitus]

Yes.

My point was, Sicilians and Laconians both have more Near Eastern input than Peloponnesians proper. And can appear genetically, on a PCA plot, on both sides of Crete (i.e. either more "European" or more "Near Eastern" than them). Do you acknowledge this?

If anything, it's not more Near Eastern, but less NE Euro.


The high IBD sharing is more likely due to repopulation of some parts of the Peloponnese with Greek-speaking southern Italians after some Slavs were expelled.

Or it's from something more ancient.

[Tacitus]

Tacitus I have a question that hopefully you are able to answer. Since most Peloponnesians share 95% of their ancestry with Italians in the study (Who I assume are from Sicily), doesnt that mean that if the same study were to be done on Sicilians, Slavic countries would definitely show up as sharing ancestry with them? Albeit, not as much as in Peloponnesians. No matter how surprising it might seem it has to be true, just like how Greeks share ancestry with Basques even though there has not been any direct contact between the two populations.

Tricky, because they aren't entirely clear what "Italian" means: for the IBD analysis they mention using samples from Puglia and Veneto for example, but I don't know if they used the Tuscan or north Italian (Bergamo) samples as well. I think all Europeans share some amount of IBDs, but it would entirely depend on which populations were compared. The IBD sharing between Peloponnesians and Slavs is low, and I'd imagine it'd be lower for Sicilians.

[Ranger0075]

Interesting.....

[Coolguy1]

Tricky, because they aren't entirely clear what "Italian" means: for the IBD analysis they mention samples from Puglia and Veneto for example, but I don't know if they used the Tuscan or north Italian (Bergamo) samples as well. I think all Europeans share some amount of IBDs, but it would entirely depend on which populations were compared. The IBD sharing between Peloponnesians and Slavs is low, and I'd imagine it'd be lower for Sicilians.

Some of the IBD sharing could be as a result of Greek settlements on the coast of Russia and Ukraine, the Black sea was home to many colonies. However, most of the shared ancestry could probably be attributed the Slav migrations southward.

[Sikeliot]

If anything, it's not more Near Eastern, but less NE Euro.

I think it is more Near Eastern, because on this chart, you see the Sicilians have slightly less North Euro AND slightly less Near Eastern than Cretans, so it makes sense they have more Near Eastern than Peloponnesians AND less North Euro:

http://i66.tinypic.com/28whuon.jpg

Overall, with Sicily sampled island-wide, they should end up closer to Cretans than to Peloponnesians, and this is what shows on GEDmatch.

[Voskos]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/20k5dk/top_40_countries_by_the_number_of_scientific/

[Sikeliot]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/20k5dk/top_40_countries_by_the_number_of_scientific/


What are you seeing in these studies -- do you agree with my conclusions?

[Tacitus]

I think it is more Near Eastern, because on this chart, you see the Sicilians have slightly less North Euro AND slightly less Near Eastern than Cretans, so it makes sense they have more Near Eastern than Peloponnesians AND less North Euro:

http://i66.tinypic.com/28whuon.jpg

Overall, with Sicily sampled island-wide, they should end up closer to Cretans than to Peloponnesians, and this is what shows on GEDmatch.

I can't help but chuckle that after disparaging the Paschou paper for so long you're just now embracing it. :lol:

[Voskos]

What are you seeing in these studies -- do you agree with my conclusions?

i do


What are you seeing in these studies

that Greece is a powerhouse in the academic field

[Sikeliot]

I can't help but chuckle that after disparaging the Paschou paper for so long you're just now embracing it. :lol:

I didn't disparage it, I said they should be using island-wide samples from Sicily and not just from the southeast. The northern input would be even lower if they used samples from some other regions.

Anyway, you can see above what I said is true: Sicilians are more Near Eastern, less North Euro than Peloponnesians/Lakonians as a whole, and have minor differences in both elements compared to Crete. All in all this places them overlapping both with the least northern shifted Peloponnesians, and with Cretans, with a few outliers going toward Cappadoccians.

[Sikeliot]

This is what someone needs to answer: if Maniots have almost no IBD sharing or plotting with Lebanese Maronites, would Sicilians come out different?

[Sikeliot]

But what it looks like to me, and I'd like to know if TheVillager agrees -- Sicilians who are virtually untouched from mainland Greek, Norman, Lombard, and mainland Italian influence seem to be closer to Dodecanese, implying that the Dodecanese might be a good proxy for ancient Sicily before any of these groups invaded.

[Tacitus]

I didn't disparage it, I said they should be using island-wide samples from Sicily and not just from the southeast. The northern input would be even lower if they used samples from some other regions.

Sicily has been proven to be genetically homogenous in Sarno 2015. And before you say that's only based on haplogroup distribution, the original study that said Sicily is genetically divided on an east-west axis, Di Gaetano 2009, came to their conclusion based on the same method.


Anyway, you can see above what I said is true: Sicilians are more Near Eastern, less North Euro than Peloponnesians/Lakonians as a whole, and have minor differences in both elements compared to Crete. All in all this places them overlapping both with the least northern shifted Peloponnesians, and with Cretans, with a few outliers going toward Cappadoccians.

Outliers are just that - outliers, so for me that's irrelevant. And there's still overlap between Sicily and the Peloponnese; I know you're doing your best to downplay that but it's pretty clear (along with the IBD analysis). Having said that, I think then Sicilians are going to be in between the mainland (Peloponnese) and Crete, but showing overlap with both groups.


This is what someone needs to answer: if Maniots have almost no IBD sharing or plotting with Lebanese Maronites, would Sicilians come out different?

If Maniots and Sicilians are as similar as they are, why would they come out different? And why would either group plot with Maronites?

[Sikeliot]

Outliers are just that - outliers, so for me that's irrelevant. And there's still overlap between Sicily and the Peloponnese; I know you're doing your best to downplay that but it's pretty clear (along with the IBD analysis). Having said that, I think then Sicilians are going to be in between the mainland (Peloponnese) and Crete, but showing overlap with both groups.


You are trying to extend the similarity to the whole Peloponnese and eventually all of Greece, when it is only really the Laconia/Mani area directly overlapping with them, and some of those people can get very exotic and Dodecanese-like, so you're trying to make Sicily more European than it is, why not admit it is SE Peloponnese that is more Near Eastern than you think.

Well on the PCA plot that I showed you, there are Sicilian outliers with Peloponnesians (non-Laconian), Sicilian outliers with Dodecanese that are further Near Eastern than Crete, and then the rest are overlapping with the Cretan cluster. The dendrogram shows them overall between Crete and Laconia. So to me it is clear: we can more conclusively say Sicily overlaps with Crete than with non-Laconian Peloponnese.

Also out of 200 Cretans surveyed, none are as far outlying as 2 of 20 or so Sicilians and one Laconian, so it shows, you'll get bigger outliers in a Near Eastern direction in Sicily than in Crete, regardless of the average. I believe if you go deep inland in Sicily, you'll find more of them than on the east coast.

Also, Sicily is not autosomally homogenous or they wouldn't be able to plot anywhere from almost Tuscan-like to Dodecanese.

Mind you, northern and central Greeks will be closer to Tuscans and even eventually Bulgarians, than to Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

Also, if you run any of the Sicilian gedmatch IDs through MDLP K23, which has both Cretans and Peloponnese, Cretan is almost always the first Greek group they score. Peloponnese usually is third or so, after Anatolian Greek choices, and sometimes the Rhodian-based "Greek Islander".

[Tacitus]

You are trying to extend the similarity to the whole Peloponnese and eventually all of Greece, when it is only really the Laconia/Mani area directly overlapping with them, and some of those people can get very exotic and Dodecanese-like, so you're trying to make Sicily more European than it is, why not admit it is SE Peloponnese that is more Near Eastern than you think.

I'm not associating Sicily with all of the mainland, I made a note of putting the Peloponnese in parenthesis when I referred mainland Greece; I even said that Sicily genetically falls in between the Peloponnese and Crete, and shows overlap with both. And let's face it, if I'm trying to "make Sicily more European" in this instance, then your whole raison d'etre on TA has been pretty much to do the opposite.

[Sikeliot]

I'm not associating Sicily with all of the mainland, I made a note of putting the Peloponnese in parenthesis when I referred mainland Greece; I even said that Sicily genetically falls in between the Peloponnese (geographically part of the mainland) and Crete, and shows overlap with both. And let's face it, if I'm trying to "make Sicily more European" in this instance, then your whole raison d'etre on TA has been pretty much to do the opposite.

My point is the Peloponnesians plotting near Sicily are more Near Eastern than the rest of the mainland and less north Euro, hence why they land near Sicily.

Anyway here are random Sicilians, on MDLP K23. See who is their first Greek match, makes no difference where on the island either. I see no particular relationship to Peloponnesians based on this, because their sample is not from Mani.

The ONLY exception is from Ragusa.

Agrigento:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West @ 5.341793
2 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 5.420531
3 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 5.570944
4 Sicilian_East @ 6.200271
5 Maltese @ 6.520250
6 French_Jew @ 6.611096
7 Sicilian_Trapani @ 7.085169
8 Cretan @ 7.126055
9 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 7.241658
10 Sephardic_Jew @ 7.870277
11 Turk_Jew @ 8.087237
12 Romanian_Jew @ 8.327140
13 Ashkenazi @ 8.344472
14 Italian_Jew @ 8.486497
15 Moroccan_Jew @ 9.820114
16 Italian_South @ 10.002783
17 Sicilian_Center @ 10.048755
18 Greek_Smyrna @ 10.543817
19 Turk_Balikesir @ 10.546955
20 Greek_Athens @ 10.956947


Messina:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Romanian_Jew @ 5.577933
2 Cretan @ 5.892550
3 Italian_South @ 6.023502
4 Sicilian_East @ 6.356281
5 Ashkenazi @ 6.541414
6 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 6.685301
7 Sicilian_Center @ 7.588259
8 Greek_Athens @ 7.809681
9 French_Jew @ 8.124864
10 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 8.215242
11 Greek @ 8.530302
12 Maltese @ 9.162107
13 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 9.182790
14 Greek_Phokaia @ 9.404812
15 Sicilian_West @ 9.412241
16 Italian_Jew @ 9.555605
17 Greek_Islands @ 9.582624
18 Greek_Smyrna @ 9.734960
19 Greek_Macedonia @ 9.804584
20 Sicilian_Trapani @ 9.913408


Palermo:


Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_Jew @ 3.121720
2 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 3.364143
3 Maltese @ 3.940984
4 Sicilian_East @ 4.678215
5 Sicilian_Trapani @ 5.292650
6 Sephardic_Jew @ 5.400233
7 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 5.408387
8 Sicilian_West @ 5.413849
9 Italian_Jew @ 5.439331
10 Turk_Jew @ 5.575489
11 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 5.805711
12 Moroccan_Jew @ 7.432797
13 Cretan @ 7.662037
14 Romanian_Jew @ 7.826815
15 Ashkenazi @ 8.117446
16 Sicilian_Center @ 8.198680
17 Italian_South @ 9.458352
18 Greek_Smyrna @ 10.044790
19 Italian_Abruzzo @ 10.452760
20 Greek_Islands @ 10.520090


Caltanissetta:


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West @ 2.370434
2 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 4.083702
3 Sicilian_Trapani @ 4.424206
4 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 5.577603
5 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 5.591331
6 Maltese @ 5.672849
7 Sicilian_East @ 5.806962
8 French_Jew @ 6.753391
9 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.160999
10 Ashkenazi @ 8.318385
11 Cretan @ 8.608108
12 Sephardic_Jew @ 8.651263
13 Turk_Jew @ 9.144859
14 Romanian_Jew @ 9.238473
15 Italian_Jew @ 9.347874
16 Sicilian_Center @ 9.857786
17 Italian_South @ 10.606323
18 Greek_Smyrna @ 10.906242
19 Moroccan_Jew @ 10.914769
20 Greek_Athens @ 11.245426


Trapani:


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 3.125225
2 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 3.436649
3 Sicilian_East @ 3.462756
4 Ashkenazi @ 3.659462
5 Romanian_Jew @ 4.046363
6 Sicilian_Center @ 4.946489
7 Italian_South @ 5.087483
8 Sicilian_West @ 5.361128
9 Cretan @ 5.855062
10 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 5.870660
11 Sicilian_Trapani @ 5.921915
12 Greek_Athens @ 6.031343
13 Maltese @ 6.825956
14 Greek @ 6.875806
15 Greek_Phokaia @ 6.929211
16 French_Jew @ 7.050973
17 Central_Greek @ 7.865504
18 Greek_Smyrna @ 8.647680
19 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.664958
20 Greek_Peloponnesos @ 8.873838


Catania:


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_West @ 3.560674
2 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 4.032464
3 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 4.291926
4 Sicilian_East @ 5.068924
5 Sicilian_Trapani @ 5.145444
6 Maltese @ 5.188420
7 French_Jew @ 5.484666
8 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 5.544055
9 Cretan @ 6.892600
10 Sephardic_Jew @ 7.262252
11 Ashkenazi @ 7.501627
12 Turk_Jew @ 7.541043
13 Romanian_Jew @ 7.580815
14 Italian_Jew @ 7.764127
15 Sicilian_Center @ 9.029574
16 Italian_South @ 9.390202
17 Moroccan_Jew @ 9.629920
18 Greek_Smyrna @ 9.780265
19 Italian_Abruzzo @ 9.957056
20 Greek_Athens @ 10.331272


Ragusa:


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 5.098921
2 Ashkenazi @ 5.272447
3 Greek_Peloponnesos @ 6.125835
4 Sicilian_West @ 6.859781
5 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 6.890028
6 Romanian_Jew @ 7.136246
7 Greek @ 7.264215
8 Central_Greek @ 7.357910
9 Sicilian_East @ 7.533345
10 Greek_Thessaloniki @ 7.537695
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 7.593434
12 Greek_Athens @ 8.038240
13 Greek_Macedonia @ 8.103490
14 Sicilian_Trapani @ 8.234294
15 Greek_Northwest @ 8.272680
16 Albanian_Tirana @ 8.326913
17 Greek_Phokaia @ 8.711685
18 Italian_South @ 8.725285
19 Maltese @ 9.190999
20 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 9.199603

[Sikeliot]

Where Tacitus and I disagree is this: I think there is a spectrum that Sicilians, Cretans, and Maniots fall into, that can range from being more mainland Greek like all the way to Cappadoccian and Dodecanese. I do not think saying Laconians and Sicilians are related makes either one more 'European' or more 'MENA' than they otherwise would be, but if I had to pick, it is more that some Peloponnesians are Sicilian-like with elevated MENA, lower North Euro, rather than the reverse. It is acknowledging more variation to the Greek spectrum, not saying "Sicilians are more European than we thought" because looking at the PCA plot where they range from Tuscan-like to Cappadoccian/Dodecanese (and even these two do not totally overlap) shows that is not the case when they have more extremes than Crete. So did SE Laconia.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians were not primarily colonized by Anatolian and Dodecanses Greeks. they were primarily colonised by Peloponeseians (Megarans & Corinthians) and Euboans (descended from central Greek stock). Later there were Greeks from every corner entering Sicily - the hypothesis that these Greeks were only Anaolian and Dodecanesian is false. Primarily they were Peloponnesian and Mainland Greek - and this matches the study we are debating.

Well, the autosomal DNA (PCA placement) of modern day Sicilians does not reflect this, because it is only specific Peloponnese regions that come out similar to Sicilians and if anything, reflects those Peloponnesians being more East Mediterranean rather than Balkan, unlike people on the rest of the mainland. Sicilians are not a Balkan population genetically, so it is the other way around.

[Sikeliot]

Sadly most Greeks in these institutions would rather jump through fire than test these bones and invigorate modern Greeks towards patriotism and what the leftist academics consider - the right.[/FONT]


They will be found to be similar to modern day Cretans, Sicilians, etc. and have virtually nothing to do with Epirotes, Macedonians, Thracians, Thessalians and so on. Don't get your hopes up. We have seen what Greeks come out like genetically when the Slavic element is removed.

[Sikeliot]

Here I ran every Sicilian through MDLP world.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205077-Distances-to-Greek-populations-for-Sicilians-on-MDLP-World&p=4284314#post4284314

Roughly half are closest, of the Greek populations, to Crete. The other half to Greek East (an Aegean reference), and only one to Greek South (Peloponnese).

[Sikeliot]

Though I will add, "Greek East", whichever island it is, comes up in between Crete and the mainland samples, so anyone scoring that first will be between Crete and Greek South, perhaps in line with some of the Sicilians in these studies. Roughly half came up that way and the rest were more or less identical to Crete. So I guess all of these sources are saying the same thing.

[Tacitus]

Where Tacitus and I disagree is this: I think there is a spectrum that Sicilians, Cretans, and Maniots fall into, that can range from being more mainland Greek like all the way to Cappadoccian and Dodecanese. I do not think saying Laconians and Sicilians are related makes either one more 'European' or more 'MENA' than they otherwise would be, but if I had to pick, it is more that some Peloponnesians are Sicilian-like with elevated MENA, lower North Euro, rather than the reverse. It is acknowledging more variation to the Greek spectrum, not saying "Sicilians are more European than we thought" because looking at the PCA plot where they range from Tuscan-like to Cappadoccian/Dodecanese (and even these two do not totally overlap) shows that is not the case when they have more extremes than Crete. So did SE Laconia.

Again, you're overemphasizing outliers; there's a very clear Sicilian cluster. The problem here is that you're taking these three outlying Sicilian samples (one north of the main cluster and two south) and trying to portray it as a uniform distribution range; that's not how it works. If the distribution from Tuscany to the Dodecanese was more evenly spread then yeah, we could say there's a wide amount of variability but there really isn't.

[Sikeliot]

Again, you're overemphasizing outliers; there's a very clear Sicilian cluster. The problem here is that you're taking these three outlying Sicilian samples (one north of the main cluster and two south) and trying to portray it as a uniform distribution range; that's not how it works. If the distribution from Tuscany to the Dodecanese was more evenly spread then yeah, we could say there's a wide amount of variability but there really isn't.

Most of the 20 Sicilians used in the sample cannot be located on the chart I posted so it can be inferred most of them are hidden under the Cretan cluster. Anyway as you see in the link I posted with the GEDmatch samples, roughly half of the Sicilians I share with (and I have more than used in any of the studies) are more or less Cretans.

There is significant genetic overlap between Sicily and Crete.

[Tacitus]

Most of the 20 Sicilians used in the sample cannot be located on the chart I posted so it can be inferred most of them are hidden under the Cretan cluster. Anyway as you see in the link I posted with the GEDmatch samples, roughly half of the Sicilians I share with (and I have more than used in any of the studies) are more or less Cretans.

There is significant genetic overlap between Sicily and Crete.

I'm referring to the PCA in *this study*, not from Paschou.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I'm referring to the PCA in *this study*, not from Paschou.

The PCA in this study (where Sicilians are the green squares and Peloponnesians red) that shows all of Europe indicates that the most southern-shifted Peloponnesians plot with Sicily, and the rest of them drift toward the main Italian cluster. Based on what we know about Cretans, they should be similar to the bottom half of the Sicilian cluster.

[Sikeliot]

I'm referring to the PCA in *this study*, not from Paschou.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201718f2.jpg

What I am then saying is Cretans, on the PCA plot (autosomal, NOT IBD) would be overlapping with the Sicilians, like is the case for some of them in Paschou et al, on GEDmatch, on 23andme, and so on. Again, on the Europe-wide PCA plot, only HALF of the Peloponnesians land on the Sicilians, the others drift toward mainland Italians because they have less Near Eastern, more NE Euro. Those must be the ones with more Slavic, then.

I wish this study hadn't come out because now it'll give Greeks who have a superiority complex more reason to claim Sicilians are their inferior, backwards, backwater cousins like they always do. They have no respect for our ancestry and heritage, and claim us only when convenient (like now when any similarity shows they are not as Slavic as they think). Still, we are proud of having Greek heritage but it is never embraced back until convenient.

[Scholarios]

\

I wish this study hadn't come out because now it'll give Greeks who have a superiority complex more reason to claim Sicilians are their inferior, backwards, backwater cousins like they always do. They have no respect for our ancestry and heritage, and claim

you are delusional, bro.

[Sikeliot]

you are delusional, bro.

Sorry. Raine, Hellenas, and Faklon have taken their toll on me since I've been here. I over exaggerated.

With that said, I'd like your opinion on all of this. I personally think it shows Peloponnesians who are the least Slavic influenced, end up on an East Mediterranean continuum, where Aegean islanders, most Sicilians, most Cretans would be.

[Skerdilaid]

Useless studdy, no Y Chromosome and they included French and Basque but not Albanians who settled Poleponesos in droves during middle ages.

[Sikeliot]

Useless studdy, no Y Chromosome and they included French and Basque but not Albanians who settled Poleponesos in droves during middle ages.

Albanians would probably have had similar IBD sharing with Western Europeans.

[Skerdilaid]

Albanians would probably have had similar IBD sharing with Western Europeans.

That's not the point. Study was done to show that population of Poleponesos hasn't changed much over the centuries, but while doing so they exclude the neighbouring populations who have influenced them the most. Belarussians and French didn't settle there, South Slavs and Albanians did, however. Anywho, y chromosome would have been a lot more useful then IBD sharing.

[Sikeliot]

That's not the point. Study was done to show that population of Poleponesos hasn't changed much over the centuries, but while doing so they exclude the neighbouring populations who have influenced them the most. Belarussians and French didn't settle there, South Slavs and Albanians did, however. Anywho, y chromosome would have been a lot more useful then IBD sharing.

I agree.. the Slavs who came to the Peloponnese may have been mixed with native Balkanites by the time they got to Greece, thus would have blended in more undetected into the Greek gene pool. Without quantifying how much "Russian" DNA is in Bulgarians, the study leaves a lot to be answered.

[nightrider+]

I agree.. the Slavs who came to the Peloponnese may have been mixed with native Balkanites by the time they got to Greece, thus would have blended in more undetected into the Greek gene pool. Without quantifying how much "Russian" DNA is in Bulgarians, the study leaves a lot to be answered.

Actually, in another study (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555) on IBD, Bulgarians weren't even in the top 10 for Greeks, even behind Bosnians and Russians, with Montenegrins being third behind Kosovo and Albania.

[Tacitus]

What I am then saying is Cretans, on the PCA plot (autosomal, NOT IBD) would be overlapping with the Sicilians, like is the case for some of them in Paschou et al, on GEDmatch, on 23andme, and so on. Again, on the Europe-wide PCA plot, only HALF of the Peloponnesians land on the Sicilians, the others drift toward mainland Italians because they have less Near Eastern, more NE Euro. Those must be the ones with more Slavic, then.

I wish this study hadn't come out because now it'll give Greeks who have a superiority complex more reason to claim Sicilians are their inferior, backwards, backwater cousins like they always do. They have no respect for our ancestry and heritage, and claim us only when convenient (like now when any similarity shows they are not as Slavic as they think). Still, we are proud of having Greek heritage but it is never embraced back until convenient.

Uh, I dunno know where you're getting that from, but Greeks and Italians usually get along great (on here and IRL). Haven't you ever heard of the saying "una faccia, una razza" ("one face, one race")?

[Scholarios]

That's not the point. Study was done to show that population of Poleponesos hasn't changed much over the centuries, but while doing so they exclude the neighbouring populations who have influenced them the most. Belarussians and French didn't settle there, South Slavs and Albanians did, however. Anywho, y chromosome would have been a lot more useful then IBD sharing.

dont' agree. main point of study seems to be to see how much influence proto-slavs had on genetics of current peloponnesians. whether you agree with their methods is different, but they stated the slavic issue beforehand. i suspect albanian influence will be something similar for most peloponnesians, with certain towns in northeast being 25-40% similar to modern albanian populations. it's not as mysterious for albanians, we know where they were, and they are largely still there in reduced numbers.

[Queen B]

I wish this study hadn't come out because now it'll give Greeks who have a superiority complex more reason to claim Sicilians are their inferior, backwards, backwater cousins like they always do. They have no respect for our ancestry and heritage, and claim us only when convenient (like now when any similarity shows they are not as Slavic as they think). Still, we are proud of having Greek heritage but it is never embraced back until convenient.
Wtf are you talking about ? Are you on drugs?
When a Greek have even said such words? If it weren't for your obsession and countless threads about Greeks and Sicilians, noone would even link them together, or actually talk about both in the same sentence.
Get over yourself, and don't accuse Greeks over stupid things you brought up yourself.

[catgeorge]

Sikeliot should be limited to say the word Greece and Greek twice per day at maximum.

[Herr Abubu]

What I am then saying is Cretans, on the PCA plot (autosomal, NOT IBD) would be overlapping with the Sicilians, like is the case for some of them in Paschou et al, on GEDmatch, on 23andme, and so on. Again, on the Europe-wide PCA plot, only HALF of the Peloponnesians land on the Sicilians, the others drift toward mainland Italians because they have less Near Eastern, more NE Euro. Those must be the ones with more Slavic, then.

I wish this study hadn't come out because now it'll give Greeks who have a superiority complex more reason to claim Sicilians are their inferior, backwards, backwater cousins like they always do. They have no respect for our ancestry and heritage, and claim us only when convenient (like now when any similarity shows they are not as Slavic as they think). Still, we are proud of having Greek heritage but it is never embraced back until convenient.

Dude, you are an American with partial Sicilian ancestry who hasn't ever even set foot on Sicily. You shouldn't be speaking for Sicilians and you shouldn't identify as one until you learn to speak Sicilian-Italian, live in, at the very least, a Sicilian American community and so on. You know nothing about the Sicilian experience and the Sicilian way of life because you don't even have second hand experience of it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand you and I support what you're doing. We all need a community. The American identity is completely artificial, superficial and empty, but by claiming some people and culture you aren't part of, you are basically just sinking yourself deeper into the quicksand of the American sense of self. What I'm saying is you should do something real about it instead of arguing Sicilians are such and such and speaking for them when you're not initiated into Sicilian culture.

[Laberia]

dont' agree. main point of study seems to be to see how much influence proto-slavs had on genetics of current peloponnesians. whether you agree with their methods is different, but they stated the slavic issue beforehand. i suspect albanian influence will be something similar for most peloponnesians, with certain towns in northeast being 25-40% similar to modern albanian populations. it's not as mysterious for albanians, we know where they were, and they are largely still there in reduced numbers.

No, the main point of the "study" is to prove that Fallmerayer was wrong. It's the classic idiot greek "study". About what was wrong Fallmerayer? What did he said?

[Skerdilaid]

Actually, in another study (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555) on IBD, Bulgarians weren't even in the top 10 for Greeks, even behind Bosnians and Russians, with Montenegrins being third behind Kosovo and Albania.

5 samples from Greece, 9 from Albania and 15 Kosovars (probably all Gheg). Lol

[Skerdilaid]

dont' agree. main point of study seems to be to see how much influence proto-slavs had on genetics of current peloponnesians. whether you agree with their methods is different, but they stated the slavic issue beforehand. i suspect albanian influence will be something similar for most peloponnesians, with certain towns in northeast being 25-40% similar to modern albanian populations. it's not as mysterious for albanians, we know where they were, and they are largely still there in reduced numbers.

They basically came to the conclusion that Poleponesos was never depopulated or heavy settled by migrations while ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Voskos]

No, the main point of the "study" is to prove that Fallmerayer was wrong. It's the classic idiot greek "study". About what was wrong Fallmerayer? What did he said?

and youre the classic balkanoid shithead who masturbates to anything anti-Greek.

[nightrider+]

5 samples from Greece, 9 from Albania and 15 Kosovars (probably all Gheg). Lol

And? The samples are small but do you think the result would be much different with bigger samples?


They basically came to the conclusion that Poleponesos was never depopulated or heavy settled by migrations while ignoring the elephant in the room.

Let's say they included Albanians and found out they had a 90% sharing with Greeks. Would that mean that Greeks are 90% of Albanian origin, or does it mean now that they are 95% of Italian origin?
Y-dna would be good to have but we already have enough studies to know that J2b is rare among Greeks and still don't really know the origin of E-V13.
I get that you're disappointed that this study doesn't serve your agenda, but they couldn't have done much about it anyway.

[Laberia]

and youre the classic balkanoid shithead who masturbates to anything anti-Greek.

And you are an uneducated gypsy. If you don't have an answer, go play backgammon with your grandfather and his friends.

[Voskos]

And you are an uneducated gypsy. If you don't have an answer, go play backgammon with your grandfather and his friends.

tirana has more slavic y-dna than half of Greece. poor donkey

[Skerdilaid]

And? The samples are small but do you think the result would be much different with bigger samples?



Let's say they included Albanians and found out they had a 90% sharing with Greeks. Would that mean that Greeks are 90% of Albanian origin, or does it mean now that they are 95% of Italian origin?
Y-dna would be good to have but we already have enough studies to know that J2b is rare among Greeks and still don't really know the origin of E-V13.
I get that you're disappointed that this study doesn't serve your agenda, but they couldn't have done much about it anyway.

Only five Greeks, they could be with origin from Turkey for all we know, so my point is the sample is too small. Perhaps you're misreading the paper? Although, the sample is small, this is what they have to say:
The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

I don't have an agenda, this study reeks of it though from a mile away - I am just pissed I wasted my time yesterday reading it while having my morning coffee. No, it would show that this particular region was indeed influenced by migrations as we know it by historical events, what a study of this nature should be reporting. You do know how Y Chromosome works, right? It's about sharing a common ancestor within genealogical time frame or perhaps a bit more distant, but simply being in the same cluster. The origin here is irrelevant, be it R1b, V13 or J2b2 - there are many branches within those mentioned halpos that some might be found among Greeks and are absent among Albanians and vise versa.

[Laberia]

tirana has more slavic y-dna than half of Greece. poor donkey

OK cretin. Back to the topic. Because i see people here arguing about haplogroups, etc. Before this, we have to read carefully this paper. And with reading carefully i intend starting to read the abstract and the introduction, where, as in all BS that you call "scientific paper", a large part is dedicated to this poor Fallmerayer. And it's normal that i rise the question: What's the problem with this scholar, what's wrong did he said?

[Kelmendasi]

tirana has more slavic y-dna than half of Greece. poor donkey
How?

[Voskos]

Only five Greeks, they could be with origin from Turkey for all we know, so my point is the sample is too small. Perhaps you're misreading the paper? Although, the sample is small, this is what they have to say:

I don't have an agenda, this study reeks of it though from a mile away - I am just pissed I wasted my time yesterday reading it while having my morning coffee. No, it would show that this particular region was indeed influenced by migrations as we know it by historical events, what a study of this nature should be reporting. You do know how Y Chromosome works, right? It's about sharing a common ancestor within genealogical time frame or perhaps a bit more distant, but simply being in the same cluster. The origin here is irrelevant, be it R1b, V13 or J2b2 - there are many branches within those mentioned halpos that some might be found among Greeks and are absent among Albanians and vise versa.

seriously, i dont think theres an agenda anywhere. had the study(the one about Peloponnisos) included albanians they would have fallen into the very same cluster as Greeks and Italians, which would have made it impossible to measure Albanian ancestry. so they just stick to slavs

[Kelmendasi]

seriously, i dont think theres an agenda anywhere. had the study included albanians they would have fallen into the very same cluster as Greeks and Italians, which would have made it impossible to measure Albanian ancestry. so they just stick to slavs
Not really there are some differences between Albanians and Greeks/Italians when it comes to genetics and ancestry

[Voskos]

Not really there are some differences between Albanians and Greeks/Italians when it comes to genetics and ancestry

for the differences to show up you need more accurate methods such as IBD, YSNP, STR markers , D-stats etc

[Skerdilaid]

seriously, i dont think theres an agenda anywhere. had the study(the one about Peloponnisos) included albanians they would have fallen into the very same cluster as Greeks and Italians, which would have made it impossible to measure Albanian ancestry. so they just stick to slavs

There is dude, you can't study a region genetically regarding migrations and the effect they have had on the local population without even mentioning the Albanian migrations there. It's simple as that, not professional at all. Exactly why I brought up y chromosome, the only and best way to track population movements.

[Kelmendasi]

Are there any IBD test that you can take to show what ethnic group you are closest to?

[Tacitus]

for the differences to show up you need more accurate methods such as IBD, YSNP, STR markers , D-stats etc

I'd imagine that there would be high IBD sharing between the Greeks in this study and Albanians, probably on par with the sharing seen between Peloponnesians and the Italians/Sicilians as measured. All these groups in general are closely related genetically.


There is dude, you can't study a region genetically regarding migrations and the effect they have had on the local population without even mentioning the Albanian migrations there. It's simple as that, not professional at all. Exactly why I brought up y chromosome, the only and best way to track population movements.

From a user on Eupedia:



King et al 2008 have a small sample (n=57) from the Peleponnese, specifically from Lerna and from the vicinity of Franchthi Cave (the usual healthy adult men whose paternal grandfathers came from the same area). I don't know if this is supposed to have been a region of Slavic settlement or not. It has 12% I2-P37(xI2-M26) and 2% R1a-M17. I2-P37 is likely to be I2-Dinaric, and R1a-M17 is typically Slavic types in Greece, but can't tell from this data.

This is less than found further north in Greece, and much less than in South Slavs, of course.

[Voskos]

All these groups in general are closely related genetically.





i agree with that.

[Ylla]

Sikeliot killed me. 'inferior, backwards, backwater cousins' xD

[Skerdilaid]

These are just enclaves that survived and were recorded in recent history, like the Arbereshe of Italy. Majority have been absorbed and have no clue of their Albanian origins, in Greece and Italy for that matter. This is very obvious when one observes y chromosomes of Albanians.



Posted it for people to visually see why I think this studdy is bogus.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=arvanites+in+greece&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO1c3mrdHSAhVI7mMKHZN4CbwQ_AUIBygB&biw=640&bih=336#imgrc=3zm9rC-sFIxYtM:

[Pennywise]

The study is just a declaration of the well known obviousness. Modern Greeks are a blend of Slavs, Vlachs, Levantines and Anatolians.

[Pennywise]

tirana has more slavic y-dna than half of Greece. poor donkey

I bet even I have more Hellen ancestry than you.

[Freeroostah]

Uh, I dunno know where you're getting that from, but Greeks and Italians usually get along great (on here and IRL). Haven't you ever heard of the saying "una faccia, una razza" ("one face, one race")?

Forget Sikeliot man, siamo fratelli ;)

[Freeroostah]

Sikeliot should be limited to say the word Greece and Greek twice per day at maximum.

He should also be limited to say "Greeks" and "Slavs" in one sentence.

[Laberia]

Albanians on here don't feel left out.

The Greeks have now destroyed Fallmerayer - a person who is often quoted by Albanian and FYROMian nationalists to discredit and revise Greek history. Now that the Slav myth has been busted (in fact most serious academics from around the world dismissed Fallmerayer anyway previously about the Peloponnese being empty of native Greeks) - Greeks can now put that idiot to rest. The issue is closed. More tests will further discredit this pseudo historian concerning other aspects of his broken ramblings on an area he knew nothing about.

Now I understand some of you may still be in shock - to think there are Peloponnesians out there with only as little 0.2 slav ancestry.. but I can see the usual prick Labia is stating 'What about us Albanians... we are still influencing Greeks...' This will probably we discussed in future tests. This one was only to destroy the slav myth that helped build FYROM identity. To think all those theories on slavic place names in the Peloponnese.. :picard1: Where are these slavs now? Just a drop in the ocean of the Greek gene pool and as each year passes - further reduced..

I suspect when Albanian heritage is tested - it will be far more difficult because Albanians are mixed with Greeks in Albania itself just as many Greeks carry Albanian heritage in Greece. Therefore it will be a lot harder to split the two. Sure it will easy to differentiate a proud Ashkali Albanian with a Greek - but a southern Albanian with Greek/Italian heritage dating back centuries and millennia and perhaps some prehistoric Balkan? Will be very hard to split those hairs.. A more interesting test would therefore be slav ancestry in modern Albanians and work from there.

Anyways, this week we got rid of the Slav myth. Other tests will be done by international scientists so just be patient - but brace yourselves.. The distance between Greek and Albanians will be low anyway - far lower than the distance between Bulgarians and Cretans for example.

This study is a clear prove that the so-called greek scholars are experts in forgery.
And this your post just confirm that you are an retard.

[Skerdilaid]

Albanians on here don't feel left out.

I suspect when Albanian heritage is tested - it will be far more difficult because Albanians are mixed with Greeks in Albania itself just as many Greeks carry Albanian heritage in Greece. Therefore it will be a lot harder to split the two. Sure it will easy to differentiate a proud Ashkali Albanian with a Greek - but a southern Albanian with Greek/Italian heritage dating back centuries and millennia and perhaps some prehistoric Balkan? Will be very hard to split those hairs.. A more interesting test would therefore be slav ancestry in modern Albanians and work from there


No one is feeling left out trust me, I am just stating facts why this study is irrelevant and can't be taken seriously, let alone as some sort of trophy to declare victory (as some of you seem to be doing).

Are you for real? You must be deluded. Albanians stormed Greece in droves and their movements are well recorded, while only a handful of Greeks were brought by Alia Pasha as farmers in South Albania. We are not that similar, don't kid yourself.

[Kelmendasi]

No one is feeling left out trust me, I am just stating facts why this study is irrelevant and can't be taken seriously, let alone as some sort of trophy to declare victory (as some of you seem to be doing).

Are you for real? You must be deluded. Albanians stormed Greece in droves and their movements are well recorded, while only a handful of Greeks were brought by Alia Pasha as farmers in South Albania. We are not that similar manner, don't kid yourself.
People really like exaggerating our similarity with the Greeks bro. As you said Greeks hardly stepped foot permanently in Albania or Albanian inhabited lands