Sazzini et al 2016: Italian population structure (PCAs included here)

[Sikeliot]

" The green component was considerably represented in samples from Caucasus and Middle East, being also evident in some Southern European populations (e.g. Greeks) and, especially, in Southern Italy (28%), progressively decreasing towards the northern part of the peninsula (12%). A similar, but even more extreme south-north gradient was observed also for the blue component highly representative of Northern African groups that was additionally detected in Middle East and, to a significant lower extent, in Southern Italy (4.6%, mainly in Sicily)."

"In particular, people from N_ITA appeared to be more closely related to Western and Eastern European populations, while moving southwards along the peninsula a progressive genetic connection with Middle Eastern and Northern African populations emerged."

"The same analysis supported also the hypothesis that the Northern African-like ancestry represents a genetic footprint related to the Arab occupation of Sicily (1.3–0.7 kya)"

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep32513#supplementary-information

On the PCA you can see some of the South Italians approach Cypriots. Greeks drift between Central and South Italians.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--DkJ2FWkgVM/WFJ6kHan7BI/AAAAAAAABB4/EVe0SAkU9_I3XJP6mNiqNBLHOu1fftPFQCLcB/s700/sazzini2016-figS2.png

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uwDKeF7HnRM/WFJ68fzbfUI/AAAAAAAABCA/btxoo-6thC8_EZMhWX6_sPGPQ8HiONaWACLcB/s1600/sazzini2016-fig2a.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_RMiJ1ToYNM/WFJ6vkjfDmI/AAAAAAAABB8/FYnPWXE3qjorWmRfXAaE9_4PwlpFr7vWgCLcB/s1600/sazzini2016-figS1.png


http://i68.tinypic.com/313rg4w.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/xbl7pz.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/16iw407.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/24d3b5i.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I find a few things interesting:

1) One of the Central Italians is at the very end of the South Italian cluster, drifting toward Cyprus
2) Liguria is more "Central Italian" influenced than the rest of the North
3) Campania is, indeed, shifted toward central Italy, but all of the rest of the south is wholly "southern"
4) One part of Sardinia has a slight Central Italian component

[Sikeliot]

Also this differentiates between the NE and NW European components, so we can see that Greeks have more of the NE, Iberians more of the NW, and the Italians vary.

[Percivalle]

1) One of the Central Italians is at the very end of the South Italian cluster, drifting toward Cyprus


It's the sample from Abruzzo, plus that one from Molise, considered as Central Italian (C_ITA) in this paper but as this study shows in the PCA Abruzzo is instead part of the Southern Italian cluster (as already we knew), more similar to the sample from Benevento (Campania).


4) One part of Sardinia has a slight Central Italian component

The sample from Olbia in northeastern Sardinia.

[Sikeliot]

It's the sample from Abruzzo, plus that one from Molise, considered as Central Italian (C_ITA) in this paper but as this study shows in the PCA Abruzzo is instead part of the Southern Italian cluster (as already we knew), more similar to the sample from Benevento (Campania).



The sample from Olbia in northeastern Sardinia.

Abruzzo should not be considered central Italian because it is giving the impression then that actual central Italians can come close to Cypriots.

What is worth mentioning also is that Cosenza in Calabria, is less "southern" (RE: Caucasus/West Asian influenced) than Agrigento and especially, Catania. I feel like if they'd used Reggio Calabria, it'd give the impression of a more West Asian Calabria, while Cosenza doesn't even match Sicily.

[Hadouken]

http://i68.tinypic.com/313rg4w.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/xbl7pz.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/16iw407.jpg



why do these 3 plots differ so much from each other ?

[Sikeliot]

why do these 3 plots differ so much from each other ?

I don't know. But it is worth looking to see where the Italians are placed on them. I interpret it to say this:

- North Italians are between Iberians and Bulgarians
- South Italians have direct gene flow from the Levant, regardless of their "overall" placement
- Central Italians are between the two

[Percivalle]

Abruzzo should not be considered central Italian because it is giving the impression then that actual central Italians can come close to Cypriots.

I know, tell that to Sazzini. But in the paper he states that despite Abruzzo was included in the Central Italian sample it rather clusters with South Italy.


What is worth mentioning also is that Cosenza in Calabria, is less "southern" (RE: Caucasus/West Asian influenced) than Agrigento and especially, Catania. I feel like if they'd used Reggio Calabria, it'd give the impression of a more West Asian Calabria, while Cosenza doesn't even match Sicily.

The geographical placement of circles (dot) with the Italian provinces is not very precise, but the geographic coordinates should be.

Sicilians ended up in mainland South Italy. Agrigento is with Lecce and Cosenza.

CN is Piedmont, SV is Liguria, BS and CO are Lombardy, VI and PD are Veneto, BO is far southern Emilia, PT and GR are Tuscany, AN is Marche, PG is Umbria, AQ is Abruzzo, BN is Campania, MT is Basilicata, LE is Apulia, CS is Cosenza, AG and CT are Sicily.

The more northern-shifted in this study are those from Cuneo, Piedmont, who are geographically in Switzerland (for few kms), followed by those from Vicenza, Veneto.


http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2016/160901/srep32513/images_hires/m685/srep32513-f1.jpg


why do these 3 plots differ so much from each other ?

They are not PCA plots, they are TreeMix graphs, not easy to understand.

[Sikeliot]

Catania plots the most south most likely because it has the least input from any northern sources. This might support my contention that the belt from far southern Calabria through Messina/Catania into inland Sicily is fairly unaltered for thousands of years compared to the other areas of the south.

[Sikeliot]

The study suggests the cline in Italy is not created by an increase in "Southern European" ancestry as you go south, but an increase in West Asian combined with a decrease in Northeast European.

[Voskos]

so according to the Treemix, there is some gene flow
1- from Greece to Cyprus.
2-from Levant to Southern Italy

http://i66.tinypic.com/xbl7pz.jpg

[Sikeliot]

so according to the Treemix, there is some gene flow
1- from Greece to Cyprus.
2-from Levant to Southern Italy

http://i66.tinypic.com/xbl7pz.jpg

1 -- I don't know which way it is going, it is difficult to tell if it is saying Greeks have Cypriot admixture, or the reverse.
2 -- Yes. Interestingly enough, ancient Sicilians ("Shekelesh") did settle the southern Levant in northern Israel, but their impact was likely small. Likely they arrived around the same time as the Philistines.

[Sikeliot]

so according to the Treemix, there is some gene flow
1- from Greece to Cyprus.
2-from Levant to Southern Italy

Also worth noting, what you see for Catania in this study is likely very close to what would be the case for Crete.

[The Blade]

Nothing hugely surprising.

[glicine max]

Seems I can't spot the Abruzzo dot,do we have any genetic information,in this or other papers,regarding specifically the northen part of Abruzzo by any chance?

[Percivalle]

Seems I can't spot the Abruzzo dot,do we have any genetic information,in this or other papers,regarding specifically the northen part of Abruzzo by any chance?

It's written in the paper (the Abruzzo sample is from L'Aquila). C_ITA means that Abruzzo was considered as Central Italian in the PCA but instead Abruzzo clustered within the bulk of southern Italian samples.

"as well as most from L’Aquila (C_ITA), actually clustered within the bulk of southern samples. "


so according to the Treemix, there is some gene flow
1- from Greece to Cyprus.
2-from Levant to Southern Italy

Or it's from Levant to southern Italy and from Cyprus to Greece, or from southern Italy to the Levant and from Greece to Cyprus. The one or the other, but not like you said.

[Mens-Sarda]

It's the sample from Abruzzo, plus that one from Molise, considered as Central Italian (C_ITA) in this paper but as this study shows in the PCA Abruzzo is instead part of the Southern Italian cluster (as already we knew), more similar to the sample from Benevento (Campania).



The sample from Olbia in northeastern Sardinia.

The north-eastern area (Gallura) was partially colonized by Corsicans after XVIth century; the area of Olbia and hinterland is however Sardinian speaking, while most of Gallura is populated by Gallurese-Corsican speaking peoples.

http://sardegnainblog.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/cartina-linguistica-della-sardegna.png

[Sikeliot]

Or it's from Levant to southern Italy and from Cyprus to Greece, or from southern Italy to the Levant and from Greece to Cyprus. The one or the other, but not like you said.

The only way southern Italian influence could exist in the Levant is if we go back to the Sea Peoples hypothesis. It is known ancient Sicilians (Sicanians or Siculi, I don't know which) had settlements in Israel, toward the border with Lebanon. They were likely not numerous enough to have a drastic impact, so I am inclined to believe it is Levantine affinity in southern Italy.

What is clear is Sicilians, on that chart, are the ones with the biggest outliers, followed by Calabria. But some Abruzzese apparently can cluster with them too, which means that for the most part, outliers aside, all southern Italians share common stock, and common affinity with the Levant.

[Percivalle]

so I am inclined to believe it is Levantine affinity in southern Italy.

But if it's Levantine influence in southern Italy, so it's Cyprus influence in Greece, not the opposite (Greek ancestry in Cyprus as said by The Villager). Anyway in the Treemix the distance between Palestinians and Southern Italy is overwhelmingly bigger than the distance between Cypro and Greece. Abruzzo is part of the southern Italian cluster and we already knew that. Anyway, outliers should never taken in consideration, we need to focus on the bulk of a population.


The north-eastern area (Gallura) was partially colonized by Corsicans after XVIth century; the area of Olbia and hinterland is however Sardinian speaking, while most of Gallura is populated by Gallurese-Corsican speaking peoples.

It makes sense.

[Petalpusher]

It's Palestine -> S.Italy and Greek -> Cypriot, there are arrows on the treemix (there s no point using it otherwise)

[Percivalle]

It's Palestine -> S.Italy and Greek -> Cypriot, there are arrows on the treemix (there s no point using it otherwise)

I see only one arrow. Likely I'm having trouble seeing.


They are where they should be and where other N.Africans would be, the difference is your pca is actually weighted with a N.African/SSA signal, when the other pca isn't, Bedouins aren't in the same place for this reason. Mozabite and Morrocans being slightly closer to Europe than Bedouins on yours is due to them have significantly more paleo/meso euro eventhough they have more SSA, which are the two most opposite elements. That's not an interpretation it's how it works.

If you say so. The PCA from Sazzini just has to be flipped.

http://i.imgur.com/vRE4NZQ.jpg

[wvwvw]

The Ancient Greeks were of three main lineages one came from Anatolia 20,000 years ago J2, one from Cyprus/Palestine 10,000 ago (E which evolved in Greece) and one from Iberia about 5000 years ago.

The first known domesticated cat in the world is buried at Shillourokambos in Cyprus 5000 years before similar burials are known in Egypt.

It was in Cyprus that proto Greek were spoken. The R1 lineage spoke a Basque like non IR language. The Arcado-Cypriot dialect of Greek is one of the oldest.

[Petalpusher]

I see only one arrow. Likely I'm having trouble seeing.

Out of 3 Treemix im sure you can find the arrows. There s not even the need of treemix anyway, it's already clear at K5, with the dark blue and green. The other one in "s.europe" being Iberian without the green since it's N.Africa instead of middle east.

http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/srep/2016/160901/srep32513/images_hires/w926/srep32513-f3.jpg




If you say so. The PCA from Sazzini just has to be flipped.

http://i.imgur.com/vRE4NZQ.jpg

What is it supposed to show flipped like that, with this circle?

[wvwvw]

The only way southern Italian influence could exist in the Levant is if we go back to the Sea Peoples hypothesis. It is known ancient Sicilians (Sicanians or Siculi, I don't know which) had settlements in Israel, toward the border with Lebanon. They were likely not numerous enough to have a drastic impact, so I am inclined to believe it is Levantine affinity in southern Italy.

What is clear is Sicilians, on that chart, are the ones with the biggest outliers, followed by Calabria. But some Abruzzese apparently can cluster with them too, which means that for the most part, outliers aside, all southern Italians share common stock, and common affinity with the Levant.

There's no such thing as Levantine. Levantine is an invented term to describe the people of the middle east who are of european descend. Levantines are european sea peoples+semitic.

The sea peoples themselves were of the lineages i mentioned above.

[wvwvw]

What is clear is Sicilians, on that chart, are the ones with the biggest outliers, followed by Calabria. But some Abruzzese apparently can cluster with them too, which means that for the most part, outliers aside, all southern Italians share common stock, and common affinity with the Levant.

What links S.Italy with the levant is the sea peoples who were Greeks.

[wvwvw]

. Anyway in the Treemix the distance between Palestinians and Southern Italy is overwhelmingly bigger than the distance between Cypro and Greece.

It makes sense.

Like I said a big part of Greek genome is Cypriot. Hell even Bulgarians and Romanians show significant Cypriot admixture. It's the Greeks that have additional ancestry to that of Cypriots, whereas Palestinians have significant additional ancestry besides Cypriot. (Arab) so naturally the distance will be larger between Palestine and S.Italy.

[GiCa]

....:D.. Pistoia and Grosseto seem to differ slightly

Grosseto people ae mostly a mix of Aretines with local more ancient people

[Percivalle]

Out of 3 Treemix im sure you can find the arrows. There s not even the need of treemix anyway, it's already clear at K5, with the dark blue and green. The other one in "s.europe" being Iberian without the green since it's N.Africa instead of middle east.

This has nothing to do with the arrow that I can not see though. Anyway, the first (purple not dark blue) peaks in Sardinia, the green peaks in the Caucasus (and secondly in the Middle East), the blue peaks in North Africa, the red peaks in Central Europe. The fifth, the light blue, peaks in northern Europe.



What is it supposed to show flipped like that, with this circle?

The European cluster is basically the same of other PCAs.

[Sikeliot]

What links S.Italy with the levant is the sea peoples who were Greeks.

That is the dumbest thing I've heard yet. Southern Italians plot closer to Cypriots than Greeks do on a PCA plot, if anything it is the opposite. There isn't even an arrow going from Greece to southern Italy there, nor from Levant to Greece or vice versa.

[Sikeliot]

I see only one arrow. Likely I'm having trouble seeing.



If you say so. The PCA from Sazzini just has to be flipped.

http://i.imgur.com/vRE4NZQ.jpg

It shows that there are some southern Italians who are drifting toward Cyprus, and away from central Italians, Greeks, and Balkanites.

[Sikeliot]

Out of 3 Treemix im sure you can find the arrows. There s not even the need of treemix anyway, it's already clear at K5, with the dark blue and green. The other one in "s.europe" being Iberian without the green since it's N.Africa instead of middle east.

What do you think explains the arrow going from Levant to southern Italy?

[GiCa]

i did a grafic distinction:

https://s16.postimg.org/6ljxheqo1/sazzini2016-fig_S1.png (https://postimg.org/image/6ljxheqo1/)

[GiCa]

Noi Toscani e ci si sovrappone cogli Emiliani.. ma con il lombardi, piemontesi e meridionali pe' nnulla.. un pohicno ci si incocia co' nostri fratelli umbri e i nostri cugini marchigiani

Vu ssete un attra razza.. non la meglio genia come noi

La Toscana è la meglio genia che Cristo stampi

[Lucas]

What do you think explains the arrow going from Levant to southern Italy?

Some people couldn't resist MENA influx in South Europe... What's the problem with it?

[Percivalle]

i did a grafic distinction:

https://s16.postimg.org/6ljxheqo1/sazzini2016-fig_S1.png (https://postimg.org/image/6ljxheqo1/)

That PCA was done to identify the outliers and removing them from the subsequent analyses. It doesn't even include all the samples reported in the paper.

[wvwvw]

That is the dumbest thing I've heard yet. Southern Italians plot closer to Cypriots than Greeks do on a PCA plot, if anything it is the opposite. There isn't even an arrow going from Greece to southern Italy there, nor from Levant to Greece or vice versa.

Cypriot dna is not non-Greek dna. Every Greek has Cypriot dna since antiquity. Actual DNA plots show that Cypriot DNA is most closely related to Greek DNA followed by Iranian and South Italian and Greek DNA is most closely related to Cypriot DNA followed by South Italian.

[Sikeliot]

Some people couldn't resist MENA influx in South Europe... What's the problem with it?

I don't have an issue with it. I am just wondering whether people think it is Phoenician, or something more ancient or even, more recent.

[Sikeliot]

Cypriot dna is not non-Greek dna. Every Greek has Cypriot dna since antiquity. Actual DNA plots show that Cypriot DNA is most closely related to Greek DNA followed by Iranian and South Italian and Greek DNA is most closely related to Cypriot DNA followed by South Italian.

Cypriot DNA is heavily Levantine. Do they have Greek input, which is why they don't fully plot with Levantines? Yes. Is it most of their DNA? No.

Moreover, southern Italians and Greeks are close, but the connection is likely more ancient than we often are told.

[GiCa]

It seems that Greeks have always wandered an stayed in Italy since pre historic times. Probably it s the explanation (?)

[Petalpusher]

This has nothing to do with the arrow that I can not see. Anyway, the first (purple not dark blue) peaks in Sardinian, the green peaks in the Caucasus, the light blue peaks in North Africa, the red peaks in Central Europe.

Yes Purple is "Sardinian", what about it? Probably something early neo + Villabruna as well as it's somewhat higher in C&N Italy than the south as seen on the map below. The dark(er) blue is something only found in the middle east and highly in N.Africa. If you can't see the arrows i hope you can at least see the colors or it's gonna make it difficult, bottom line is only S.Ita has significant amount of both green and dark(er) blue, which shows the geneflow without treemix, they use it to confirm which way it happened, as they were already seeing that with the admixture runs.




The European cluster is basically the same of other PCAs.

Well yes and no, the point Gica was trying to make was that Tuscans were closer to the middle east but Sardinians were closer to Bedouins, which is not the case here once you have a model that incorporates middle east and N.African admix, but that's normal it's more accurate for that matter since it's the point of the study. Usually the default Eurasia pca doesn't have that as it complicates things. Ofc on the other hand Tuscans are closer to central/north Europe, Sardinians are just more removed to basically everything, and more or less equidistant with even N.Italy, to MENA.

[Petalpusher]

What do you think explains the arrow going from Levant to southern Italy?

My bet is still Levant_BA or something similar in the Copper Age/Chalcolithic, around this time for the most part.

[Sikeliot]

It seems that Greeks have always wandered an stayed in Italy since pre historic times. Probably it s the explanation (?)

Explanation for the closeness of southern Italy to Greece? Part of it, but the native people of both regions would have common roots in the Neolithic also.

[Sikeliot]

My bet is still Levant_BA or something similar in the Copper Age/Chalcolithic, around this time for the most part.

So you think that this component already existed among the Sicanians then (the Bronze Age people of Sicily), meaning the Phoenicians would have arrived to the island with its population already having the North African and Levantine affinities.

My guess is because there would not yet have been an influx from NE Europe, the MENA element would have been even larger back then than today.

[Petalpusher]

So you think that this component already existed among the Sicanians then (the Bronze Age people of Sicily), meaning the Phoenicians would have arrived to the island with its population already having the North African and Levantine affinities.

My guess is because there would not yet have been an influx from NE Europe, the MENA element would have been even larger back then than today.

That might be them specifically who brought it. When they show a Palestine geneflow it means something similar but at what age is unknown, it's just what treemix "likes" the most.

[wvwvw]

Some people couldn't resist MENA influx in South Europe... What's the problem with it?

The Mena influx arrived in Greece 10,000 ago and evolved in Greece so it can be said it is indigenous. It was the so called Helladic civilization from which proto-Greek evolved. Their age was called the Helladic age. (not to be confused with Hellenic). Helladic means the original inhabitants of Greece who had been in Greece for so long 10,000 years that they had become indigenous. Similarly the Greek language evolved in Greece and later evolved even further when it merged with the non-IE Iberian language. The result of this merging was Greek. http://www.ime.gr/chronos/02/mainland/en/eh/intro/index.html

Then a wave of R1b people came to the Balkans from Iberia and into the Greek Peninsula starting in 2200 BC and came down in a far larger wave in 1900 BC. These people were already in contact with the Helladic people of Greece before they came down the Greek peninsula and the merging of their languages gave birth to the Greek language (Helladic Indo-European + Iberian Non-Indoeuropean)

The Pelasgians were the result of the mixing of these two, they were Myceanean Greeks. They were R1b hunter gather invaders that came to the Balkans in 4000 BC from Iberia and merged with the indigenous J2 and E agricultural lineages.

[GiCa]

Yes. Sardinians are more closer to magrebis than Tuscans are

[wvwvw]

So you think that this component already existed among the Sicanians then (the Bronze Age people of Sicily), meaning the Phoenicians would have arrived to the island with its population already having the North African and Levantine affinities.

My guess is because there would not yet have been an influx from NE Europe, the MENA element would have been even larger back then than today.

They were not Phoenicians, they were Helladic people who had arrived to Greece from Cyprus and Palestine 10,000 ago, but they evolved differently from the people there. Ev13 for example evolved in Greece. After 10,000 years in Greece these people had become indigenous.

The first linage that reached Greece, specifically Macedonia was J2 50,000 years ago which was the male analogue of the female linage Ursula that was also in Macedonia at this time. The other female linages did not come to Europe until 25,000 years ago so Greece would have been composed of an ethnically homogenous tribe.

The Helena Iberian linage and her husband linage R1b was not in Europe until 20,000 ago, it was the last groups to enter Europe. If we look the heading 7 daughters of Eve we see the figures are perfectly clear and accurate. Ursula was in Greece 30,000 years before Helena reach Iberia.

The mt linages is associated with a respective ydna. Unless we believe that the R1bs wiped out all the Helena men so that not even a specimen survived to procreate and bear male offsprings, we must accept that the Helena men were the R1bs.

By 7000 BC the population of Greece would have been composed of the Ev13 and J2 linage combined. In 2500 BC the R1 linage arrived in Macedonia and by 1600 BC they had emigrated to Mycenae and blended with the existing linages.

[Danaan]

Cypriot DNA is heavily Levantine. Do they have Greek input, which is why they don't fully plot with Levantines? Yes. Is it most of their DNA? No.

Moreover, southern Italians and Greeks are close, but the connection is likely more ancient than we often are told.

Levantines have Greek input too. I think there are bidirectional prehistorical contacts.

Cypriots according to Herodotus were supposedly from Athens, Salamis, Arcadia and Kythnos (=Greeks) but also from Phoenice and 'Aethiopia'.

Phoenicans were from the Red Sea* according to Herodotus. Imo Phoenicans were Saudi like if we remove the more recent admixture they have.

*They say though that Greeks meant the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean with that term

[Sikeliot]

That might be them specifically who brought it. When they show a Palestine geneflow it means something similar but at what age is unknown, it's just what treemix "likes" the most.

What is clear to me now is people have moved across Sicily for so long, and from Sicily to Calabria and vice versa, such that the Phoenician influence may have been dispersed across the whole island, as has the Greek influence, the Sicanian influence. The only thing that seems regionally concentrated is Norman and Lombard: some parts of the island have almost none, others have more.

[wvwvw]

Cypriot DNA is heavily Levantine. Do they have Greek input, which is why they don't fully plot with Levantines? Yes. Is it most of their DNA? No.

Moreover, southern Italians and Greeks are close, but the connection is likely more ancient than we often are told.

Greeks and Cypriots have Helladic input. Greeks have additional Iberian Steppe-like input.

[Danaan]

..\ This post can be removed. I edited the previous one.

[Sikeliot]

Levantines have Greek input too. I think there are bidirectional prehistorical contacts.

This does not appear to show up in their DNA results. Anyway as we can see, Greeks did not wholly change the population structures of any land they settled: southern Italians and Cypriots, in many respects, are genetically closer to one another than to Greeks, and there is little to no Greek DNA in the Levant.

[Danaan]

This does not appear to show up in their DNA results. Anyway as we can see, Greeks did not wholly change the population structures of any land they settled: southern Italians and Cypriots, in many respects, are genetically closer to one another than to Greeks, and there is little to no Greek DNA in the Levant.

You can't quantify Greek DNA without ancient samples.

[Sikeliot]

You can't quantify Greek DNA without ancient samples.

I would say we could use one of the isolates like Tsakonia or Mani.

[Danaan]

I would say we could use one of the isolates like Tsakonia or Mani.

There are no isolates, anywhere.

Also think. If we take a sample from a Greek city in Cyprus 3000 years ago will that count as Greek DNA?

[wvwvw]

Levantines have Greek input too. I think there are bidirectional prehistorical contacts.

Cypriots according to Herodotus were supposedly from Athens, Salamis, Arcadia and Kythnos (=Greeks) but also from Phoenice and 'Aethiopia'.

Phoenicans were from the Red Sea* according to Herodotus. Imo Phoenicans were Saudi like if we remove the more recent admixture they have.

*They say though that Greeks meant the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean with that term

The Phoenicians that Herodotus refers to a occupants of Tyre were decedent of Phoenix the son of Cadmus who was a descendent of Io the daughter of Inarchus to son of the Titan Oceanus.

Phoenicia was a Greek colony with different ethnic groups in it. The fact that Herodotus uses the distinguishing terminology "houtoi de hoi Phoinikes" indicates there were many different peoples called Phoenicians.

Phoenicians was a tribal name used to describe the descendents of Phoenix and the land they occupied. Palestine was the land occupied by the Mycenaean Pelasgians who the Egyptians called Palest.

Traces of the Greek Minoan Civilisation have been found in Syria-Palestine dating to 3000 BC. The Greek Mycenaean Civilisation was FIRMLY established in Syria-Palestine by 1400 BC and recorded trading links with Egypt date from 1500 BC or even earlier.

Archaeological research shows that 5000 years ago there were Minoan Greeks in Cyprus and 3500 years ago there were Mycenaean Greeks. How come the Cypriots were using a Cypriot derivative of Linear A script up until 400 BC if they were not Greek. How come the earliest inscriptions in this script are all written in Mycenaean Greek. The Phoenicians those whos origin were from the red sea never took over Cyprus in their entire history but Greeks colonised Phoenicia and later on Evagoras. The furthest Phoenicians got to Cyprus was as Salamis from which they were kicked out of twice after less than a decade. How come Mycenaean artefacts have been found in Cyprus dating from 1500 BC up until 1100 BC and not a trace of anything Phoenician or Ethiopian or Egyptian.

Speaking of Ethiopia, as far as Ancient Greeks were concerned it was Egypt.
Tithonus the king of Ethiopia was the son of of Dardanian king Laomedon. The Battle of Kadesh would have been around about the time of Tithonus (son of Laemedon) abduction to Ethiopia.

The Egyptians were ruled by the Greek Hyksos dynasty which is culturally Achaean for over half a century. The Egyption word Hyksos is from yhe same root as Ekwesh and referes to the Achaean Greek Sea People who came to Egypt at the time that Zeus conquered the Titians (Mittani) and drove them into Asia in 1675 BC which corresponds archeologically to a time when the Minoan palace civilisation was destroyed and rebuilt.

The Myceaneans never called themselves so, but called themselves Achaeans and it is form that word where the word YHWH or Ayahaewah derives through the Egyptian form Ekwesh and the Hittite form for Achaeans which is Ahhiyawa.

[wvwvw]

This does not appear to show up in their DNA results. Anyway as we can see, Greeks did not wholly change the population structures of any land they settled: southern Italians and Cypriots, in many respects, are genetically closer to one another than to Greeks, and there is little to no Greek DNA in the Levant.

They did not change the population structure in places like Palestine or Egypt, because they were absorbed by subsequent waves of invaders like the Arabs.

In Greek city states where the population itself was Greek you can see the Greek dna imprint to this day. S.Italians and Cypriots plot much or less with the Greeks, despite the fact that Greeks split from Southern Italians 1500 years ago, and the fact the Cypriot population has always been predominantly Helladic.

[Danaan]

The term 'Ethiopians' was used inconsistently for dark skinned people both Africans and some people in India by Herodotus. What I said is what Herodotus have said.

Concerning the rest I uphold an agnostic position on some of those issues. Everyone accepts that the Cypriot syllabary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypriot_syllabary)was Greek, so Greek was spoken in Iron Age Cyprus at least. That should be accepted by everyone.

I have some personal positions that I keep to myself for now.

[Sikeliot]

There are no isolates, anywhere.

Also think. If we take a sample from a Greek city in Cyprus 3000 years ago will that count as Greek DNA?

I don't think so. I think the evidence shows Cypriots do not have mostly Greek DNA.

[Sikeliot]

Anyway, let's stay on topic.

Here is my question: what do people make of it being Catania in Sicily, not Cosenza in Calabria, that is the most southward/MENA/etc. plotting region?

[Danaan]

I don't think so. I think the evidence shows Cypriots do not have mostly Greek DNA.

That doesn't answer the question & there are no evidence or not exactly.

[Sikeliot]

That doesn't answer the question & there are no evidence or not exactly.

The issue is, modern Cypriots do not plot with any Europeans. The closest are some southern Italians from Calabria and Sicily and some Greek islanders, but these populations plot with Cyprus only because of their inflated West Asian ancestry.

[Danaan]

The issue is, modern Cypriots do not plot with any Europeans. The closest are some southern Italians from Calabria and Sicily and some Greek islanders, but these populations plot with Cyprus only because of their inflated West Asian ancestry.

None of them plots with Cypriots. You can find the Achaean admixture only with Achaean samples, though.

[Sikeliot]

None of them plots with Cypriots. You can find the Achaean admixture only with Achaean samples, though.

In this chart, some of the southern Italians do. Anyway it is clear Sicilians and Cypriots do have Greek ancestry (it can be detected through y-dna and even in some mtdna, in Sicilians), but since both populations cluster more Near Eastern than most Greeks do, it is obvious that not all of their DNA came through Greece or other Balkan migration routes. Cyprus especially.

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/377578ejhg2015233x8.jpg

[Sikeliot]

My bet is still Levant_BA or something similar in the Copper Age/Chalcolithic, around this time for the most part.

If we got Bronze Age Sicilian samples it would probably show affinity to Natufians and other Afro-asiatic peoples.

[Mens-Sarda]

Yes. Sardinians are more closer to magrebis than Tuscans are

in your damaged brain, Sardinians are just Sardinians, nothing to do with Tuscans nothing with your Maghrebis

p.s.
if your Sardinian boyfriend cuckolded you it's not our fault

[Enflamme]

in your damaged brain, Sardinians are just Sardinians, nothing to do with Tuscans nothing with your Maghrebis

p.s.
if your Sardinian boyfriend cuckolded you it's not our fault

All the genetic studies give her wrong: the Sardinians are closer to the Basques, genetically speaking, than to the Maghrebians (that does not mean that the Sardinians are Basques).

She said that without citing a sources. It is as if I said that the Tuscans were invaded by peoples from North Africa before and that the present Tuscans are the descendants of these people ... I can say that, but we have to prove it and citing sources ... what I do not have, so i can not say anything. :rolleyes:

[Percivalle]

All the genetic studies give her wrong: the Sardinians are closer to the Basques, genetically speaking, than to the Maghrebians (that does not mean that the Sardinians are Basques).

She said that without citing a sources. It is as if I said that the Tuscans were invaded by peoples from North Africa before and that the present Tuscans are the descendants of these people ... I can say that, but we have to prove it and citing sources ... what I do not have, so i can not say anything. :rolleyes:

Don't turn this thread in the usual childish fights. I have already told GiCa to stop with that.

[Percivalle]

Yes Purple is "Sardinian", what about it? Probably something early neo + Villabruna as well as it's somewhat higher in C&N Italy than the south as seen on the map below. The dark(er) blue is something only found in the middle east and highly in N.Africa. If you can't see the arrows i hope you can at least see the colors or it's gonna make it difficult, bottom line is only S.Ita has significant amount of both green and dark(er) blue, which shows the geneflow without treemix, they use it to confirm which way it happened, as they were already seeing that with the admixture runs.

I saw the arrow that points to S. Ita, it was the other arrow that I didn't see (Greeks>Cypro).



Well yes and no, the point Gica was trying to make was that Tuscans were closer to the middle east but Sardinians were closer to Bedouins, which is not the case here once you have a model that incorporates middle east and N.African admix, but that's normal it's more accurate for that matter since it's the point of the study. Usually the default Eurasia pca doesn't have that as it complicates things. Ofc on the other hand Tuscans are closer to central/north Europe, Sardinians are just more removed to basically everything, and more or less equidistant with even N.Italy, to MENA.

Yes, agreed. Of course I've said that the European cluster is more or less the same (but also consider that Sazzini have used some different samples for Italy). It's the non-European cluster that can appear different from usual, because, as you said, incorporates Middle East and N. African admix. Sazzini is primarily interested in the medical genetics side of things, he is not a population genetics specialist in the strict sense based on his previous papers.

[Sikeliot]

I saw the arrow that points to S. Ita, it was the other arrow that I didn't see (Greeks>Cypro).

So this means input from Levant to South Italy, and from Greece to Cyprus.

My guess is that Levantine input predates the Phoenicians. Neither Calabria, Agrigento nor Catania were Phoenician areas of settlement, but people did move across Sicily so much that what was originally concentrated in Palermo could have gotten spread around, and into Calabria too.

[Percivalle]

So this means input from Levant to South Italy, and from Greece to Cyprus.

I still don't see that arrow.

[GiCa]

in your damaged brain, Sardinians are just Sardinians, nothing to do with Tuscans nothing with your Maghrebis

p.s.
if your Sardinian boyfriend cuckolded you it's not our fault

never had a sardinian boyfriend. as i rul i m not attrated by G-med or atlanto med guys. i like more paler guys.. so chances i find the moslty on my own tuscan men.. wich my boyfriend is