The Catalan Countries

[Comte Arnau]

1. North Catalonia

Capital: Perpinyà (Perpignan in French)

GATE OF THE CATALAN COUNTRIES
At one side of the French Catalan Road, near Salses, the northernmost Catalan town.

http://www.ictisp.com/~on406258/memoria/05/ima/salsesmonument.jpg

CROSS OF THE CANIGÓ (Canigou in French)
One of the most symbolic mountains for the Catalans
http://www.uecgracia.org/imatges/muntanya/alta/creu%20canigo.jpg

THE CUIXÀ ABBEY
Sant Miquel de Cuixà, important cultural centre in the time of influential Abbot Oliva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbot_Oliva)
http://tonipont.blog.galeon.com/img/cuixaportalada.gif

ESTANY DE LA PRADELLA (La Pradelle Lake)
http://img27.xooimage.com/files/c/4/5/2009-10-27_estany...odifi--1-14b4cd4.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/5809912.jpg

BANYULS
In the Red Coast. Land of good wine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banyuls) and hometown of the North Catalan sculptor, Aristides Maillol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristide_Maillol).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Banyuls_sur_Mer_France.jpg

PERPINYÀ (Perpignan in French)
The capital of North Catalonia.
http://www.canet-holidayapartment.co.uk/userimages/perpignan.jpg
The Castillet (Little Castle)
http://www.f0ghx-f0ghy.fr/e107_images/custom/LE%20CASTILLET.jpg

VILAFRANCA DE CONFLENT (Villefranche-de-Conflent in French)
World Heritage site.
http://www.linternaute.com/sortir/magazine/photo/les-citadelles-vauban-vues-du-ciel/image/villefranche-229881.jpg

SANT MARTÍ DEL CANIGÓ (Saint Martin Abbey)
http://www.ambafrance-cn.org/IMG/jpg/P002050_redimensionner.jpg

[Korbis]

Countries? lol.

Very nice pics.

[Lábaru]

Yeah, Spain is nice :)

[Arya Stark]

I love the Catalan nation so much.I think is one of my favourite small nations along with Irish, New Zealanders and Finns.

They don't have their own state tho, and that makes it difficult for the cohesion of the different regions split into 3 or 4 countries. And yet they have preserve their culture and identity where others have largely lost it .


Perpinya and Alghero are two of the most beautiful cities I have visited. My bf has family in Valencia, and I have spent there a few holidays too, but believe it or not, I have never been in Barcelona yet xD

[perikolez]

Yeah, Spain is nice :)

Perpinya or Villafranca del Conflent arent Spain:D. Ibex , do you want a independent Catalonia or a independent paises catalans?. I dont think that Valencia or Balearic Islands are very regionalist.

[antonio]

Perpinya and Alghero are two of the most beautiful cities I have visited. My bf has family in Valencia, and I have spent there a few holidays too, but believe it or not, I have never been in Barcelona yet xD

Sorry, but it's too late. Barcelona was a city really worth a visit at late seventies, currently it's mainly a crappy overcrowded failure.:coffee:

[Lábaru]

Perpinya or Villafranca del Conflent arent Spain:D. Ibex , do you want a independent Catalonia or a independent paises catalans?. I dont think that Valencia or Balearic Islands are very regionalist.

Yes, France is nice too.

[Arya Stark]

Sorry, but it's too late. Barcelona was a city really worth a visit at late seventies, currently it's mainly a crappy overcrowded failure.:coffee:

wow, I have had very different reviews from people who's opinion I trust. However is interesting to heard something different for a change

[Comte Arnau]

I love the Catalan nation so much.I think is one of my favourite small nations along with Irish, New Zealanders and Finns.


After being constantly bombed with derogatory comments by certain people, appreciations like yours are even nicer to hear. :thumb001:


Perpinya or Villafranca del Conflent arent Spain:D.

In fact, none of the pics posted so far are part of Spain, lol. Some people's obsession leads to epic fails like these, easily forgetting that ethnic Catalans still spread over four independent countries. But I guess that as long as the thread is hijacked, who cares about accuracy?


Ibex , do you want a independent Catalonia or a independent paises catalans?. I dont think that Valencia or Balearic Islands are very regionalist.

I'm all for the right of people to decide. I understand the Catalan Countries as one ethnic nation, but it does not mean that they should necessarily form one single country. Specially the Land of Valencia, a dual territory from its very inception. So it is up to Catalans from Valencia and the Balearic to decide if they'd like to join with Catalonians in a common political project. Would I like it? Yes. Particularly for the preservation of the ethnicity in those territories. But what I really care for right now is the Principality.

-
I'll soon go on posting about the rest of the Catalan territory.

[Comte Arnau]

2. North-West Catalonia

The Pallars Region

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2237/1668537442_a9c6ea9a89_b.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h21/Pyrenne/Nevada030108/P1210465.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1175/1399395340_43b60e4ff0_b.jpg

The Ribagorça Region

http://www.image-share.com/upload/433/188.jpg

Early Romanesque churches (11th century)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3497/3956467032_12ff01757b_z.jpg?zz=1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Beciberri.JPG

The Urgell Region

The village where the first attested writings in Catalan are from
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_f0TUT4Kfib0/S9QX4jVcNEI/AAAAAAAAA2U/ZvxGWeKNSAE/s1600/organya_general.JPG

Lleida

Main city in Western Catalonia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Lleida-Imatge_de_la_Seu.jpg

http://www.adn.es/clipping/ADNIMA20071206_3285/4.jpg

http://www.vidresviola.es/userfiles/010_LaLlotja_Lleida_VidresViola.jpg

[Falkata]

Very Nice pictures.
Sadly I somehow agree about Barcelona. A beautiful city totally collapsed by (cheap) tourists and immigrants (pakis,chineses, moroccans..) . Many of the people from Barcelona that I know complain about the stupidity of their Major.
"Perroflautas" everywhere! :(

[Comte Arnau]

Very Nice pictures.
Sadly I somehow agree about Barcelona. A beautiful city totally collapsed by (cheap) tourists and immigrants (pakis,chineses, moroccans..) . Many of the people from Barcelona that I know complain about the stupidity of their Major.
"Perroflautas" everywhere! :(

He's certainly a jerk.

[AntonyCapolongo]

La Catalogne est un très beau pays! J'espère que mal grès les efforts des républicains français et des nationalistes espagnol, la Catalogne gardera sa culture et pourra enfin affirmer son peuple! Mais bon, avec les Espagnols c'est pas facile, sans compter que sans la Catalogne, l'Espagne baisserais d'un niveau! Mais cela dit... ils n'ont pas à imposer leur langue et leur culture aux Catalans ou aux Basques, non ?

Qui perd la seua llengua perd la seua identitat !

[Falkata]

Pues si con los españoles no es fácil ya me dirás... A ver si en Italia, Francia o Alemania sus lenguas regionales tienen alguna oficialidad. Se las cargaron todas por la vía rapida y a tomar por culo. Francia es el país jacobino por excelencia donde se ha tratado siempre de eliminar cualquier tipo de particularidad del Estado y hacer todo girar en torno a París

[Comte Arnau]

North-East Catalonia

Santa Maria of Ripoll
Important cultural centre in the 10th century, where the first history of Catalonia was written.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_RWXdge-gcbU/SfQblG6N_SI/AAAAAAAAFyo/Bc1tygnUvek/PICT1826.JPG

La Garrotxa
The region where the Catalan volcanos are.
http://www.xtec.cat/ceipjoandemargarit/imatges/activitats/volcans%20de%20garrotxa.jpg.jpeg


Empordà Region, land of Dalí, Pla... and the Tramuntana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramontane)wind.

Aiguamolls de l'Empordà (Swamps of the Empordà)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7a1F-dbfk-c/TUhQD7p2mpI/AAAAAAAAKYU/WEKP95qpI9M/s1600/1-1-2011%2B233.jpg

Monastery of Sant Pere de Rodes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Monastery_of_Sant_Pere_de_Rodes_-_Catalonia_-_Spain.jpg

Cadaqués, in the evening
http://www.3viajesaldia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/cadaques_vespre.jpg

The Medes Islands
http://www.ullfoll.com/pixel/images/illes_medes.jpg

Platja d'Aro
One of the many tourist resorts in the Costa Brava.
http://www.marmuntanya.com/imatges/mar/activitats/platja_aro_01_gran.jpg


Girona, main town in the North-East

Houses on the Onyar
http://v17.lscache2.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/26947352.jpg

The Carolyngian Wall
http://www.esacademic.com/pictures/eswiki/83/Spain.Girona.Muralla.04.Sobre.Torre.2.JPG

The Banyoles Lake
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2635/3710656562_79eb05363c_o.jpg

[Adrian]

Catalunia deserves to be indepedent state.

[Amapola]

país.

(Del fr. pays).

1. m. Nación, región, provincia o territorio.

2. m. paisaje (‖ pintura o dibujo).

3. m. Papel, piel o tela que cubre la parte superior del varillaje del abanico.

:thumb001:

[aherne]

Actually, since Catalan used to be just a Langue D'Oc dialect, you can include in your list the whole Southern France, who used to speak the same language until 19th century, when rapid industrialization and mass immigration brought it to near extinction. Now Catalan, the last remaining dialect with a vigurous usage, is struggling to survive on a long term. Less than half of Catalans in Spain speak it habitually.

[Comte Arnau]

Actually, since Catalan used to be just a Langue D'Oc dialect, you can include in your list the whole Southern France, who used to speak the same language until 19th century, when rapid industrialization and mass immigration brought it to near extinction.

Catalan is likely an Ausbau language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstand_language) within the Aquitano-Pyrenean group of Occitan, Southern Languedocian being its closest relative, but the separation was already quite distinct as early as the 12th century. From then on, the vigour and autonomy of Catalan has been much stronger than that of any Occitan variety, and they grew up apart in spite of some efforts of getting closer. Today, Occitan remains the closest language to Catalan, but they can't be really considered the same language any more.


Now Catalan, the last remaining dialect with a vigurous usage, is struggling to survive on a long term. Less than half of Catalans in Spain speak it habitually.

Hmm, not really. Well, the use of Catalan is vigorous and is the only language of a stateless nation in the world that is clearly increasing its number of speakers. There are almost as many L2 speakers of it as native speakers. Of the more than 11 million people living in the Catalan-speaking area, about 95% understand it and more than 75% can speak it. Catalan is not really a 'minority language', not at a European scale, but a 'minorized language', which is something different.

I'm personally not as worried about the quantity of speakers as about the quality of them. One of the facts of not being a sovereign state is that the influence of the major language affects the quality of the native one. What means that Catalan in France has got very Frenchified, Catalan in Italy has got very Italianized and Catalan in Spain is getting gradually Castilianized.

[Comte Arnau]

Andorra
The only Catalan territory that is a sovereign state.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1451/mapandor.jpg

http://escapadas-romanticas.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Imagen-romantica-Escapada-Andorra-Nevada.jpg

Capital: Andorra la Vella (Andorra the Old)
http://www.madrid.es/UnidadWeb/Contenidos/EspecialInformativo/RelacInternac/UCCI/CiudadesUCCI/AndorraLaVella.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Andorra_la_Vella,_center.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__PZwGqq5id0/SwFT8slxFRI/AAAAAAAABVU/tbTJp4MUXHM/s1600/IMG_0129.JPG

Encamp
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Com%C3%BA_d%27Encamp_-_Andorra.jpg

Escaldes-Engordany
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Andorralavella06.jpg

http://aerumblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Caldea.jpg

Sant Julià de Lória
http://www.xena.ad/frpsju/images/PaysVillage/SantJuliaDeLoria1.JPG

Estany de les Truites (Trout Lake)
http://www.loultimodeloultimo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Estany-de-les-Truites_Andorra-Turisme.jpg

Pas de la Casa

http://www.100destinos.com/imagenes/estacion-de-pas-de-la-casa-andorra.jpg

[perikolez]

Andorra is full of noncatalonians spaniards and portugueses. Andorra is probably the catalonian pirenaic territory where fewer people speak catalonian. I suposse that you dont include Aran Valley in Catalonia.

[Comte Arnau]

Andorra is full of noncatalonians spaniards and portugueses. Andorra is probably the catalonian pirenaic territory where fewer people speak catalonian.

Almost 100% of nationals in Andorra speak Catalan, which is the only official language in Andorra. What has happened in Andorra in recent decades is that more than half of the population is non-national, mainly Spaniards and Portuguese, but also French, Brits and other Europeans. It'll all depend on the ability of Andorrans to integrate them.


I suposse that you dont include Aran Valley in Catalonia.

It is in Catalonia, but you're right, it is not ethnically Catalan. Their language, btw, is now the third official language in all of Catalonia, at least in theory.

[Ibericus]

Andorra is far from being Catalan, apart that it has never been part of Catalonia, is just an example of what would happen if Catalonia was a state, the official language is not a guarentee of anything. Most people in Andorra speak spanish. The same can be said for the Basque country.

[antonio]

For me it's a degradated and specially deculturized (by the culture of money) part of Catalonia (or, at least, of the infamous Paisos Catalans), other thing is that they never make part of the counties integrated in Aragon crown and finally in Spain: territories nowadays called (Southern) Catalonia. In fact, I would not hesitate to conquer them (I doubt Vatican or Sarko would move a single finger to help them) to avoid further damage on our public finances, by means of tax hiding...for not to talk about the aggresive driving of many Andorran drivers (including cheaters from Lérida province) on our roads. In fact, I dont know so much buzz about Gibraltar (at least they have the most powerful colonial power of all times supporting them) and so little about Andorra, which does not mean a shit for nobody.

[Comte Arnau]

Andorra is far from being Catalan,

Lol, what is not Catalan in Andorra?


apart that it has never been part of Catalonia,

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Catalonia only exists since 1978. In that case, it's never been part of it, true.


is just an example of what would happen if Catalonia was a state,

Sure. A tiny territory of 80,000 people is totally comparable to one of more than 7 million.


the official language is not a guarentee of anything. Most people in Andorra speak spanish.

Filling a country with immigrants doesn't change the character of the country until the native population has been eradicated. Now, if Andorrans are that stupid to let it happen, that's a different issue.

And I'd say soon Portuguese will be more spoken than Spanish there.

[Ibericus]

Lol, what is not Catalan in Andorra?
Most of it's population. Isn't that enough ?


Oh, yeah, I forgot that Catalonia only exists since 1978. In that case, it's never been part of it, true.

Neither it has been part of the Crown of Aragon, nor the Principality of Catalonia, nothing of that. The only thing in common with today Catalonia was the Marca Hispánica, but then also other territories that you consider now Spanish.



Sure. A tiny territory of 80,000 people is totally comparable to one of more than 7 million.

lol, but wouldn't a population of 80,000 be easier to control than 7 million ?

[Comte Arnau]

Most of it's population. Isn't that enough ?

No. It's a punctual recent phenomenon in more than 1,000 years of history, and they're mostly 1st generation. Stricter policies of integration, that's all Andorra needs.


Neither it has been part of the Crown of Aragon, nor the Principality of Catalonia, nothing of that. The only thing in common with today Catalonia was the Marca Hispánica, but then also other territories that you consider now Spanish.

Political bullshit. Andorra is nothing but a series of valleys which naturally belonged to the County of Urgell. It's only because of the constant struggle with the County of Foix that it was 'neither for you nor for me'. But Andorra is completely North-Western Catalan.


lol, but wouldn't a population of 80,000 be easier to control than 7 million ?

Oh, you can speculate all you want. The comparison is just mere BS.

[Ibericus]

No. It's a punctual recent phenomenon in more than 1,000 years of history, and they're mostly 1st generation. Stricter policies of integration, that's all Andorra needs.

Come on, during most if it's history there were only 4 shepherds and 4 cows, that's all nobody gave a shit, it has been recently that Andorra is considered something more than a mere pyrennean village, and more when catalan was made official. Well, according to statistics the national Andorrans are only 37% of the population, and that considering is a country where is very difficult to obtain nationality.

[perikolez]

I agree with Iberia. When foreigners are the majority like in Andorra, the integration is imposible, and probably in the next 50 years , local andorrans will integrate to foreigners , and they will speak even portuguese( I supose that they know actually speaking castilian), and will forget their own language. I think that it is similar to Aran valley where very few people speak aranese and the majority speak castilian. The oficiality of a language doesnt serve if foreigners are majority.

[Comte Arnau]

Let's see...

Geographically? They're Catalans.
Ethnolinguistically? 99% of the nationals are Catalan. More than 20% of the "foreign" population is Catalan too.
Officially? The only language used for all purposes is Catalan. Domestically and internationally.
Culturally? They're Catalan. Folklore, cuisine...
Legally? Their institutions are based on the Catalan Law.
Religiously? The whole country is part of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell.
Historically? They were in origin part of the County of Urgell, what is the same as saying Western Catalonia, since Old Catalonia was born mainly from the union of Urgell (West Catalonia) with Barcelona (East Catalonia).
Politically? They've always been ruled by the Bishop of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell and the Heirs of the County of Foix, originally Occitan and very related to Catalonia (the flag of Foix was the 4 Catalan bars too).
Socially? Their relationship with this side of the Pyrenees is obvious --not with the northern French part. Most Andorrans go to work/study in Catalonia rather than to any other surrounding territory, and that's for a reason.

So saying they're not Catalan is, well, 'pissing outside the flowerpot', as we say in Catalan. I don't think more comments are needed on this.


and probably in the next 50 years , local andorrans will integrate to foreigners , and they will speak even portuguese( I supose that they know actually speaking castilian), and will forget their own language. I think that it is similar to Aran valley where very few people speak aranese and the majority speak castilian. The oficiality of a language doesnt serve if foreigners are majority.

National Andorrans are still more than Spaniards, according to last year's statistics. Immigration reached its top in the late 80's, and it has gradually decreased since then.

Catalan is spoken by almost 100% of the national Andorrans. It is the usual language for almost 60% of the population and the native language for almost 40%. The belief that Spanish is the most used language in Andorra is simply denied by the statistic studies, probably due to the fact that most Catalan-speaking Andorrans can address the Spanish-speaking ones and Spanish tourists in their language. Besides, a good deal of the 'Spanish' immigrants in Andorra are Catalan speakers from 'Spanish' Catalonia. Still, it's true that Spanish is the second most spoken language in the country and the first among the foreign ones. As I said, what I care for is for the national population, not the foreigners living in it. If the core of the nation keeps its customs, it's the descendants of foreigners who get integrated, not the other way round. This said, I repeat I think some policies should be stricter.

[Ibericus]

Let's see...

Geographically? They're Catalans.
Ethnolinguistically? 99% of the nationals are Catalan. More than 20% of the "foreign" population is Catalan too.
Officially? The only language used for all purposes is Catalan. Domestically and internationally.
Culturally? They're Catalan. Folklore, cuisine...
Legally? Their institutions are based on the Catalan Law.
Religiously? The whole country is part of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell.
Historically? They were in origin part of the County of Urgell, what is the same as saying Western Catalonia, since Old Catalonia was born mainly from the union of Urgell (West Catalonia) with Barcelona (East Catalonia).
Politically? They've always been ruled by the Bishop of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell and the Heirs of the County of Foix, originally Occitan and very related to Catalonia (the flag of Foix was the 4 Catalan bars too).
Socially? Their relationship with this side of the Pyrenees is obvious --not with the northern French part. Most Andorrans go to work/study in Catalonia rather than to any other surrounding territory, and that's for a reason.

So saying they're not Catalan is, well, 'pissing outside the flowerpot', as we say in Catalan. I don't think more comments are needed on this.

Yeah, you forgot a very important thing : is that they don't consider themselves Catalan. And altough the official language is catalan, it is only spoken by one third of the population. But well, dreaming is free...Im not denying that Andorra is related to Catalonia, but to call it a catalan nation is just playing the little emperor, and it's not accurate fact, besides it is also closely related with France and Spain.

[Comte Arnau]

Yeah, you forgot a very important thing : is that they don't consider themselves Catalan.

They don't consider themselves Catalonian, that is, from the political territory called Catalonia. But they're ethnically Catalan, they cannot consider themselves anything else unless they're lying themselves. Calling themselves Andorrans is just like someone from Minorca saying he's Minorcan or someone from Tortosa saying he's from the Terres de l'Ebre, using political instead of ethnic terms for identification. Like Austrians saying they're not Germans.


And altough the official language is catalan, it is only spoken by one third of the population.

I've already commented on this and written the last statistics.


Im not denying that Andorra is related to Catalonia, but to call it a catalan nation is just playing the little emperor, and it's not accurate fact, besides it is also closely related with France and Spain.

Little Emperor? Lol. They can keep on being an independent tiny country forever and ever. The name 'Catalan Countries' was precisely coined as a recognition of the independence and peculiarity of each Catalan-speaking territory.

As for their close relationship with Castile and Paris... nah, they're too far. The only connection comes via the language, TVs and tourism.

[Rudel]

Countries? lol.
The notion of pays/pais can't really be translated in English.


Francia es el país jacobino por excelencia donde se ha tratado siempre de eliminar cualquier tipo de particularidad del Estado y hacer todo girar en torno a París
Centralism widely predates the Republic. "Jacobinism" is just a mythical notion used by idiots for whatever they don't like.


Monastery of Sant Pere de Rodes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Monastery_of_Sant_Pere_de_Rodes_-_Catalonia_-_Spain.jpg
Most important place in Catalonia, IMO.


Politically? They've always been ruled by the Bishop of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell and the Heirs of the County of Foix, originally Occitan and very related to Catalonia (the flag of Foix was the 4 Catalan bars too).
I Catalan nao !

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Arms_Aix-en-Provence.svg/500px-Arms_Aix-en-Provence.svg.png

In 1423, when infantrymen from Aix went to Marseille to help against the attack of the Aragonese, there were problems because the arms of Provence and Aragon were exactly the same :laugh:

[Shkembe Chorba]

Andorra
The only Catalan territory that is a sovereign state.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1451/mapandor.jpg
Do Catalonians have territorial aspirations towards France?

[Th.wolff]

I love Catalunya :thumb001:

[Comte Arnau]

Do Catalonians have territorial aspirations towards France?

Those who consider the whole Catalan Countries should constitute parts of one single sovereign state certainly do.

[Rudel]

Do Catalonians have territorial aspirations towards France?
Well, they can try :rolleyes:

[Rafael Passoni]

Interesting.

[Xosé Guzmán]

"Països Catalans", otra gilipollez más que incluso suplanta a lo que fue real: La Corona de Aragón.

Venga.